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Analog-ish is a weekly interview podcast for people who are tired of being optimized. Hosted by feminist coach Becky Mollenkamp, who believes slowing down is a radical act, each episode features conversations with thinkers, makers, and everyday radicals who are finding their way back to something slower, more intentional, and more human.
We're not here to tell you to smash your phone or go off the grid. We're here to ask better questions about the role technology plays in your life — and to explore practical low-tech ideas that give you more agency over the answer. From reclaiming rest to building real-life community, from protecting your attention to finding unmonetized joy, these conversations are honest, curious, and refreshingly free of hustle culture.
If you're burned out from being constantly online and hungry for a different way forward, this show is for you.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (00:00)
Hello, welcome back to Analogish. I am joined today by Podge Thomas, a queer neurodivergent, multiracial creative entrepreneur who teaches people how to reclaim their curiosity and leverage notion to build intuitive and supportive systems. We're gonna talk digital gardens and other things. Hi Podge, thanks for being here.
Podge (00:20)
Hi, Becky. Thanks for having me. This is great. I'm really looking forward to this conversation.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (00:24)
I started using Notion like a year ago off and on, and I'm still a beginner-ish user, I've been learning a bit about Notion from you,
The thing that got me excited was you had shared your digital garden. And that got me all excited about Notion because it was pretty. You made it look nicer than I'm used to with Notion. And I had never heard the term. So then I was like, what is this thing? And I mentioned to someone else and they said, yeah, those were like a thing back in the early days of blogging. OK.
It passed me by, so I didn't know about it. I thought it was new. It's not. Can you tell people a little bit about what digital gardens are
Podge (00:58)
in the early 2000s, when the internet looked, embarrassingly primitive, probably up until about maybe two or three years ago, right now it's sort of retro and it's cool and it's coming back in. But back in the day when...
You know, those old websites, just, you know, they looked very, they looked very primitive, but at the time it was very exciting. And I think it was exciting for different people for different reasons. For, you know, for me, I was sort of messing around on Google and then there was like, you know, a lot of the silly things, the memes, the videos, the quizzes, like I just felt like there was so many quizzes and the blogs and you know,
But for some people who were more into the programming side, digital gardening was really a way of creating a website through programming, right? So old original digital gardeners were programmers and a lot of them still are. And they created their own websites. so it wasn't just that the infrastructure was something digital that they had created.
It was the contents then of that website were really about what they were interested in. It was essentially a resource hub for things that they were curious about. imagine sort of a very thickly settled blogging website where there's a lot of interlinking, You might read,
a 2000 word blog and it might have a hundred links in it, 80 % of which go to other blogs that that person has written, So it was this way of digitally fostering your curiosity and then expressing those findings, those things that you were learning about in this digital way. So that was sort of the, you know, that was kind of...
sort of like old school, I there are other pieces I'm sort glossing over somewhat. And if we cut forward to let's say the last maybe five or seven years, we've got programs like Notion, Obsidian, Arena, Sublime, these types of places where you can build something yourself without needing to be a coder and then also have a practice, like a digitally supported practice.
of being able to find things on the internet, bring them together and curate them and use them as the sort of the basis, the foundation for your output, So the way that I, this is how I use Notion. It's of like an input, a synthesis, and then an output. So I'm getting things off of the internet that just pique my curiosity for whatever reason. I bring them into Notion, into a database. That's where I read them or I watch them or I listen to them.
I make notes. And then the output becomes for me, it's my newsletter, it's a bulk of my newsletter, but it's really also linked over into Notion. Like you said, I made it look pretty. But that's the process or perhaps the cycle of finding things, learning things, processing them, synthesizing them.
and then creating some type of output. This is what education does, especially higher education, especially graduate school. But for me, as somebody who was harmed by traditional education and who didn't really learn how to learn in a school situation,
digital gardening became a way for me to reconnect to my curiosity, because it really had been flattened. I really was, I wasn't reading, I wasn't consuming consciously, I wasn't taking that information and turning it into something else in a way that was not just satisfying for me, not just fun for me, but also bolstering the work that I do, Like I teach people how to use notion. There are lots of people out there.
who teach people how to use notion, But for me, I teach notion to people who are trying to reclaim their own curiosity, which in a lot of cases is people who are neurodiverse, people who have been marginalized and ostracized by a traditional education, entrepreneurs who are now adult learners,
you make the doily, but how do you actually structure your business so that you can sell your doilies, those are two different things. So I found myself as an entrepreneur trying to figure out how to learn, I learned things in school, but I didn't learn how to learn in school. So I found myself in that place. And so over the course of the, I don't know, eightish years I've been in business, this is what it sort of morphed into. So for me, teaching notion is...
that's the premise, but the underlying foundation is reconnecting to your own learning, is reconnecting to how your brain works. It's recognizing that traditional forms of learning might not work for you. And notion as a tool really forces metacognition, When you build something in notion, you have to think about how you want to see it. You have to think about how you want to arrange the information. And in doing so, it teaches you a lot about how you learn.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (05:56)
with this podcast, Analog-ish, the ish is doing heavy lifting because it is not about going analog fully. I don't think anyone can. I think that's a pretty silly notion, honestly, to say that any of us are going to be off technology. Technology is here. It has changed our lives. It's not going away. But it is this grappling with how do I exist in this digital world?
but also still feel human. How do I still get grounded in that reminder of there is life beyond just my screen? one of the questions I ask people when they're coming on this podcast is how does this podcast relate to your values?
And you said, I'm fiercely anti-productivity culture. Many of us have found that spending less time on our devices is the answer to toxic cultures that exist on the internet. I don't have a problem with that, but it doesn't solve how to make our experience with technology and the internet better. And that's part of what I want this to be about. It's not just the exploration of offline, but also how do we exist with this digital world in a way that feels better, because it's not going away. And I feel like that's sort of what
this your approach to notion to digital gardening, to learning online and consuming online. It's it's not about stepping away completely, but how do I make that experience feel better? So what role does digital gardening have in making the experience of technology and the Internet feel better for you?
Podge (07:26)
that ship has sailed. The internet is here. It's here to stay in a way that AI is also here and here to stay. How do we work with it? I, and certainly the beginning of this year, like January, February, I noticed that a lot of people were talking about
divesting from their tech, trying to get off the internet, trying to do more in real life. And I was like, crap, if this is what people want right now, I'm kind of screwed. I'm trying to sell workshops, helping people learn how to use Notion, And I, in some ways want to avoid using the word balance, but it is sort of that, but a little bit more than that. I...
love the internet. I've always loved the internet. It's a very different place than it was in 1995 when my dad first hooked up to the internet. But there's still a lot that I love and I now have a practice of being able to find the things that aren't as easy to find, That aren't going to get fed up to you. And that I think is the big piece is the algorithm for me. So I'm a YouTube
person like I love YouTube. I could be, I was on YouTube in the middle of the night last night because I couldn't sleep learning about how to use CSS in Squarespace websites. I don't even have a Squarespace website, but you get my point. I just really like, for me, it's also a great way of, of learning. it's a very non-traditional way of learning, right? It's not like being in a classroom where you have to sit there, you have to sit still and you better pay attention because what I'm only going to say this one time, right? Then I can.
interact with it, I can stop and I can start and it's quite a dynamic way of learning.
I use YouTube, I do not use Facebook. I do not use Instagram. I don't use Twitter. there are lots of things that I don't, a of places that I don't go to on the internet because they are driven by an algorithm. And this is really for me where digital gardening comes into place because rather than sort of, um, rather than getting sucked in to a platform that
thinks it knows me and will serve me things that I'm interested in, which might be great, but then it prevents me from finding new things. It prevents me from going down a rabbit hole. It prevents me from being surprised by something that I might find. That's why I enjoy Notion so much and using Notion as a digital garden, because there's time where I want to be on the internet. I just want to kind of get lost. I want to go find something. And that is a time for me to collect.
That's where I'm collecting. this looks kind of cool. This it's very rare that I'm going to be on the internet, like on somebody's website, on somebody's blog, a blog on YouTube, even consuming the content that I actually want to kick it over to notion. And then I want to go over to notion to read it. I want to read my article from a notion page. want to watch my YouTube video from a notion page. I want to listen to my podcast from a notion page. That's where I sort of consume. so that's what helps me.
avoid what I think is like this huge pitfall of the internet. think the algorithm is really one of the worst inventions, It's one of the, like, I understand why it exists, but it really exists to make other people money. And it sort of exists to keep me kind of locked in, keep me in, you know, in a dopamine spike or this like constant search for a dopamine spike. It doesn't allow me
It doesn't naturally in and of itself really foster my curiosity. It kind of flattens it out. It kind of dampens it down. I sort of want my experience on the internet to feel like it's my choice. I choose to be here. I found this random thing and I'm gonna watch it in my own time or I'm gonna look at it in my own time or I'm gonna read it in my own time. I don't want to feel like.
⁓ I'm on, this or that website and all of a sudden I'm being pulled away by an ad or I'm being pulled away by some kind of suggestion of the next thing. The other part as well is, you know, when it comes to Notion, there are lots of cool things that Notion can do now with AI, lots of ways that it can be automated. You can click a button and all kinds of things can happen.
without you even having to build it or to think about it in the first place. And this is what I really want to avoid, especially when it comes to Notion. I actually emailed Notion and you can do this and requested that they remove the AI from my, because I don't even want to accidentally, which I would do frequently. If you're a Notion user, you know that there's always that button where you accidentally hit it and like, oh my gosh, now the pop-ups there, the agent said it's asking you what you want.
I'm like, no, no, no, no, I want to do it myself. to an extent, I'm looking for convenience, to an extent, I'm looking for efficiency. It's not my driving force.
Like if you look up Notion, it'll tell you that it's a productivity tool. That's not not true. But if I think about it as a productivity tool, now I'm really in a head space of thinking through a capitalist lens. Now I'm like, crap, I gotta, I have to work and I have to work, you know, as efficiently as possible and I have to work these long hours and I have to make all the money
Now I'm in this state that's really created by a system that is not meant to benefit me in really in any way. And so I really like, I like any platform. I like any kind of activity on the internet. I like platforms like Notion where there's an opportunity for metacognition, Learning how to learn, thinking about how I'm learning and
I can choose some ways that it can make my life easier or make things more efficient, but not for the sake of efficiency, I like that it'll take me, you know, six to eight hours to build a new dashboard in Notion. Certainly AI could do it for me in a much, much shorter time, maybe an hour by the time I'm done sort of tweaking with it, but I like the kinesthetic.
process of building it myself, even though I'm in front of a screen,
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (13:15)
AI is really what prompted me to want to do this exploration with this podcast because I love tech too. And I've been an early adopter of a lot of things. I enjoy playing with certain kinds of technology. I certainly don't want to go back to the time that I actually remember prior to internet and personal computers and smartphones and having to go search microfiche to write a paper in college. I'm not interested in going back to that.
I think there are great things that have come out of technology. AI does scare me, for some of what you're talking about with the potential for just how intellectually lazy, dependent we may become. And I don't want to see that happen to us,
I worry about my inability to be creative, my inability to learn and do things on my own, The dependency that comes from this sort of coddling of me, like you're saying, the pop-up saying, I'll do that for you. And it's like, well.
OK, that's easier in this moment. Enough of those. Soon we forget how to even ask questions, how even to create or imagine. And what you're doing, like you said, some of this could be taken over by AI. It might make it faster. It might make it simpler. But it would lose.
the experience for you and for you it's about the experience. I want to make sure that I talk about like the garden itself. You talked about going out and collecting. I think of it as like you're collecting your seeds. And then eventually you come back and you sort of think about now which of these seeds do I want to plant? And then which of them actually grow that I actually want to now bring people into my garden to show them these plants, And so all along the way there may be pruning that happens.
before you get to that final step. So when you remove the algorithm from your collecting of seeds portion, I want to talk about that portion first. How do you find stuff? I think many of us have become very dependent on things being served up to us versus going out and just thinking, what am I curious about and searching for something on our own? So how do you even begin your collecting process if you're not using the algorithm to sort of handle that part for you?
Podge (15:17)
I mean, I do still use Google, I still do search for things. And I'm usually beginning with some sort of topic, There's something that I'm curious about. And it might be that it just popped into my head and now I just want to go find out. And it might be that I want to write about a specific thing. And so now I'm looking...
for other people who are perhaps talking about something similar to see if that's a helpful place for me to jump off of. I'm also, like I said, I'm a big YouTube person. It's much easier for me. So I have a learning disability. It's much easier for me to watch a video than it is to read an article. I do read articles, but I probably watch more videos. And so for me, I...
have certain creators that I follow that I go back to over and over again. I sort of say, what are they talking about today? What are they talking about this week? Sometimes I'll go back and find things that they have created before I found them and sort of start absorbing those things. The same is true for Substack, There are people who I follow in those places. I don't go to Substack and hang out on Substack, but I will go to Substack to look for something specific. And I'll use, like I said, I'll search for things.
I find a lot of things on Reddit. Reddit is a great source of places where people will link out to the things that they're referencing, So that's a place that I will go to. Sometimes I'll just go to a website like Cloud Hiker or The Pudding or Arena, where I can just kind of browse random things. I can find things that are very random and just go, okay, what's this? And then maybe that links to something else. Sometimes I do specifically want to start somewhere
random that has nothing to do with something that I think I might be interested in and just see where I end up and see where I get lost. Usually what will happen is I will, you know, it might take me five minutes, 10 minutes, maybe half an hour to find something that I'm actually interested in. And then I'm done, Now I just, you know, I'll read that thing or I'll watch that thing.
and I'll park it somewhere and then I might go back to it and then I might now, now I've got new tags in my notion. Okay, well here are some new sort of like themes I can connect to this particular article and that will then later kind of send me down other rabbit holes and help me find other things in that inside of that topic. I mean, there are things that I, know, something that I got into probably around December, had surgery in December and I spent a lot of time just like on the internet.
trying to stay awake while I was taking like heavy pain medication. And I found this whole corner of YouTube where people journal, junk journal, commonplace journal. This was a thing I didn't really know was a thing. just, I know that I've always been obsessed with stationary and come to find out this is not like a weird thing. There are lots of people out there who are also obsessed with stationary and obsessed with journaling and all these different types of journals. So,
Sometimes I end up finding something on the internet that actually gives me language for something that I was already curious about or something that I was already thinking about, but had never articulated. And then that is always going to fold into other areas of curiosity for me, Like this is what I really love about digital gardening is that
there's no such thing as like a disconnection. Like if I've thought about it, if it's in my brain, if I'm curious about it, if I'm interested in it, if I'm researching it, it's probably connected with all these other things. I teach people how to use notion, but that's really, there's so much overlap there with like the journaling world, with writing, with process, with, you know, all these kinds of things.
in terms of that collection, it really is, it's oftentimes just driven by like, my gosh, I might jump up from the table and go, ⁓ I just had this idea, I need to go see if I can find something that someone else has already written about or something, know, somebody, someone else has already talked about this. I know there's something there and I'll just keep pulling and pulling and pulling until I sort of start to get my bearings.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (19:19)
So you're driven by curiosity. And then it moves into sort of the learning and connecting stage from what I can hear. So like the gathering is like, I'm just curious about this thing. Let me see what else is out there around this. And then you kind of bring back the most interesting specimens you find. And you're like, OK, now let me start to actually think about how do these connect to other specimens I have? How do I start to make those connections? How do I learn more about this, start to go deeper into this?
Podge (19:20)
Yes!
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (19:47)
So you're bringing into Notion for that process. I love this idea of you're tagging things with different topics and themes so that then you can say, let me just search this topic. What other things do I already have in my collection about this? How these things start to connect, which is really cool. So you're bringing them back into Notion and creating a database or a project. What do you create for each one? You don't have to go super, super tech here.
Podge (20:08)
Yeah,
Yeah, it's really just a library database, right? Like I just send it over to a library database. That's where I read it. That's where I consume it. And then the others, like the, know, and then I'll sort of take some notes. And then the output then is really a separate database, Like if you've read my newsletter and you've clicked on the button that says, go read this in my digital garden, that's the page that's going to take, Like that's when I, okay.
I have enough thoughts to string together, you know, at least like I want that first iteration to be at least like five, 600 words, It doesn't have to be huge, but that seed, as you say, it's just something. It's something that I'm reflecting on. I've maybe read this article, that article, watched a couple of videos, listened to a podcast, and there's enough there that's made me think about something.
and so now I'm pulling it together into a new entry in this Notion database.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (21:01)
this is on your back end of your garden, right?
Podge (21:02)
You actually can see some of the back end. So my library is public on my digital gardening page. So you can actually see from week to week what it is that I'm consuming. And if I've made notes, you can actually read my notes. You can really do that. I don't know if people do. I'm not doing this to like try to get clicks or likes or whatever.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (21:05)
⁓
Podge (21:25)
I'm doing it because I think it's interesting and I, there might be like a dozen or so other people in my sphere who also think that it's interesting. That's good enough for me, we can all think that this thing is interesting together. And then I teach this as a class as well. So people come and I teach them and they build their own digital gardens, but the idea of digital gardening as well, it is an early idea of showing your work is working in public. So yes, I might seed an idea with.
you know, a thousand words or something, but the everything, almost everything that's in my garden at the moment is really in its seed form, This is a long game. I've been doing this for about a year. This isn't something that I'm sort of done with. This is something I'm probably going to be doing for the rest of my life It's continuing to like just foster my own curiosity because that's what it comes back to, This for me personally.
And I heard somewhere recently that we teach from our wounds, which I didn't know. For me, that wound was educational trauma, Was living an adult life where I was literally afraid to ask questions because when I was growing up in school, you were punished for asking questions. You weren't allowed to ask questions in a classroom, which was insane to me. And so for me, I just stopped being curious. And so I'm trying to resurrect that thing inside of me.
that is very human. This desire to, well, what is that?
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (22:45)
when you do it in a way that is healthy and self honoring learning is exciting. Curiosity is exciting. Creating and creativity are exciting. And they're, they connect us back to that reminder that we are human, Yes. AI can be around maybe even helps.
But we don't want to take over because it's still us as humans. is expression. Learning is a form of our expression. Creativity is obviously a form of expression. And that's the stuff I worry goes away. And that's why I want to just try to get people back in the excitement of thinking, how do I reinvigorate this area for myself? And a lot of what I've been talking about has been creative. I love that there's this learning component here.
You're also creating a garden, of a public, potentially public facing space if you choose to do that. But ultimately this is about like, I just want to be curious and learn and explore something because it's interesting to me. And can that be enough? And I loved what you said. Maybe 12 people in my world look at it and that's enough. And that like, that's enough. Cause can we do it even if no one looks at it? Even if no one cares, right? Would you still be doing this if no one was looking at it?
Podge (23:50)
I could be a person who didn't want to share this and that would be completely okay, But the reason why I show people this is because I know and I've already met people who have told me stories of being in school, told me stories of being at work, And really not being able to.
tap into this deeper, sense of themselves as a learner, Like we're really conditioned to stop learning, Once you reach whatever highest level of education you want to do, that's it, now you work. Now the thing that you do is work. You stop learning and now you work. And I'm not buying that actually.
I'm really not buying it. think that working is learning and that's what I'm doing in real time. So I choose to share this publicly, regardless of how many people it lands for, because if I can just, if it can land with one person and that one person can say, ⁓ I can do this. you don't have to get off work and now you get to go read.
this, is part of the work that you do. We all do this, For those of us in this entrepreneurship world, we're creating content. what's the basis of that content, right? Like lots of wonderful things come out of our minds, but those things become much more interesting and much more creative and much more solidified.
if we are also intaking other people's content, It has to be that way. So that's really why I do it. Cause I want just one, one other person and there have been mean, that is actually how I make a living, but if I can say this loudly enough and often enough, people will hear it. And then, and then the people who need this or want this will go.
I can do that. Like this, don't just have to work here. I can also be learning like, yes, yes, yes, this is all part of the process.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (25:36)
for some people, might be reconnecting with that learner inside of them, like you mentioned, maybe because of trauma, maybe other reasons that they've sort of disconnected from that. But for many people, the curiosity and the learning might already be there. The notion component is a way of organizing it, of making sense of it, of putting some structure around it, making it more useful than how many of us probably exist, which is piles of paper and or digital files all over the place that don't make sense or it.
in my case, 800 tabs that are always open. I never get to. I know, right? That's my ADHD brain is just like tabs galore because I'm like, I'm going to get to this someday. And then eventually my computer crashes. I lose the tabs and I think, well, I guess I didn't really need to read those things because they're gone now. But this is a way of of capturing everything and synthesizing it and making sense of it and not losing it. And then potentially then also being able to use it in service of something.
whether that's just for yourself and having a database you can go back to as you're trying to think through things or to share with your community if you own a business or just friends and family as you're having discussions about topics. I love it to create my own master's program because gatekeepers be damned. You don't have to pay tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars to a university to learn. You can go find so much online.
Create your own master's program, Yes, and then do it for yourself. And I would imagine Notion would be a great way to do that, to organize all that. Am I right that Notion is sort of the thing that's allowing you to make sense of something you've probably been doing for a while anyway?
Podge (27:15)
Yes, because, we've all been trained by Google workspace, Google drive, which is, folders and nested folders and more nested folders and documents inside of folders inside of nested folders inside of top level, Who knows where anything is? No one knows. I don't even go over to Google anymore. No one knows where it is. People come to me because they want to learn how to use.
notion and they come to me because they want to try to create some level of organization and what they leave with is a deeper understanding of how interconnected notion can be, like how interconnected you can make your information on in you can make your information in notion. It's it's both a way to mirror how you work and it's a way to help you understand what the like what process is.
when it comes to X, Like anyone who's come to any one of my workshops and has asked me a question will know that the start of the answer is always, well, it depends, Because it really depends on how you work. It depends on how your brain makes sense of things. It depends how you want to learn. It depends how you want to see the information. I'm here to help you think that through and I can give you some ideas about how I would approach it, but ultimately it's going to come down to what makes sense for you.
And I think this is why Notion is great for digital gardening. It's why it's great. when I host courses, like group programs, I host them in Notion, it's a great tool for content management, We're all out here creating content. I just did a workshop last week on content management. It's great for so many things because it, because we can create it to mirror process.
to mirror how we think, to mirror what it is that we want to do.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (28:54)
and again, I think the piece that's exciting and relevant to this is the ultimate goal is to make more sense of your online landscape without all the overwhelm, without all of the manipulation. it's manipulation by algorithms, by companies that are trying to pull you deeper or pull you into more places or sell things to you.
If we can strip some of that away and say, I can curate my own space that allows me to still enjoy the internet, to still be active, be online, and explore things that are of interest to me, but without feeling like I'm losing control of it. And I think that's what I'm hearing you say. And I think that's so exciting and why I wanted to include this conversation. And for people who don't yet know about Notion or are wanting to learn more about Notion,
You offer all kinds of courses on that. So you walk people through how to build these databases, because it is a database. And it can be a bit challenging when it's new to you. And it can take a little time. But like you said, it has a lot of power to do a lot of things if you learn how to use it. So where do people learn more about your programs on learning more about Notion?
Podge (30:00)
definitely go to podgethomas.com. That's my website. That's where everything is. And I've got all kinds of programs in there. So I do, you know, smaller workshops. I used to try to do 90 minute workshops. Ha ha ha, what a joke that was. Like it is, ⁓ and then I was like two hours and then I kept going over. So I do almost every month I'll do like a two and a half hour workshop that you can sign up for. I'll teach you how to use Notion from scratch.
through a use case, right? So we pick like, we're gonna do it on content management. This next month, we're gonna do one on how to automate your launch in Notion. And so for me, I think a really helpful way for a lot of people to learn is to sort of show it through practical applications. So that's what we do. So definitely go to podgethomas.com and grab that. I also have a really great freebie that...
teaches you how to create your own DIY YouTube in Notion. It's a whole thing. It's really super cool. It's actually the system that I use myself. I'll give it to you, Becky, so that you can share it with your people. You can go ahead and grab that for free. Of course, it gets you on my newsletter. And that's a really nice way to, and again, just building it from scratch. I literally show you every single step that you need to do. I also have written instructions in case that's a more helpful way for you to learn.
and I walk you through the whole process of setting something up. So if you're new to Notion and you like YouTube, I feel like a lot of my people also like YouTube, this is a great resource that will not only help you pull away from this platform that has a really strong algorithmic pull, but it will also give you some new and hopefully some exciting new ⁓ things to learn in Notion itself.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (31:38)
And if you get on your newsletter, which I am, then you get to see Podge's digital garden. I love getting your newsletter, because I just love to see what you're doing. And I love the different approach. It's different than most newsletters you get, which is, makes it stand out for now until everybody has their digital garden going again. Thank you so much, Podge. I really appreciate you.
Podge (31:54)
You
Thanks for having me, Becky. This was a great conversation.