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Retail and Real Estate experts interviewing experts.
Lacy Beasley: Okay, it's 1101.
And we still have participants
joining us. So let's go ahead
and get started. Thank you all
so much for registering around
this topic of very high interest
and, and just visiting with
communities, we always learned
so much from our community
leaders and great dialogue,
we're learning a lot from you.
And we're so excited to be able
to share the experts in this
space that really are at the top
level of making these decisions
on the questions you're asking
us. So we're thrilled today to
bring to the CEO and President
of the Council for finance
development agencies, Toby
Redner. And Toby is just a true
expert in all things small
business, public private
partnership, and really looking
at that financing component of
building our communities. He's
worked very closely with Cindy
Stewart over the years on retail
is the catalyst for economic
development, for TIF financing,
and all the guidelines around
that. And certainly in our space
with a focus in retail
commercial real estate, then
that public private partnership
is so critically important to
making deals happen that might
not have been otherwise. And
it's a winning scenario for all
the players involved. If you can
take a new project and generate
new tax revenue that would not
exist, but for that public
participation, and then
ultimately be able to make that
happen where the city wins, the
private developer wins, and it
creates a sense of place for
that community. So the public
private partnerships is just
continuing to grow in interest.
And that's certainly the case
today, as we continue to
navigate the impacts of COVID
19. So this webinar is being
recorded, please go ahead and
plug in your questions
throughout the course of this
discussion. And we will address
those either at the end or
throughout, we have a few
questions that all of you have
shared with us over the last two
to three months that we have
assembled and, and we're going
to get a chance to ask Toby
those today. But definitely go
ahead and plug in your specific
questions as well. And we will
get to those throughout the
course of this one hour webinar.
After this is over, you will
receive an email with the
recording. And we're also going
to provide you a tool it's a
four ways that cities can help
their small businesses, just a
PDF resource that you can use
and, and again, please just keep
us informed on topics that you
want to hear most about. And
this is something you've asked
us a lot of questions about. So
without further ado, what I'd
like to do is go ahead and turn
it over and introduce Jim
Gregory. Jen is the president of
downtown strategies. And she
worked with the greater
Starkville development
partnership as a CEO for 10
years and completely revitalized
downtown Starkville,
Mississippi, we're so pleased to
have her with us at retail
strategies, running downtown
strategies. And she's also our
in house public policy, just
guru and knows everything about
that space, which is critically
important right now, as we're
seeing a lot of federal funding
that is coming to our
communities. So with that, I'll
go ahead and turn it over to
Jin, to give us a little bit of
a recap of our last month's
webinar with Clarence Anthony,
the CEO of National League of
Cities and the dialogue that he
shared and how that has led into
what we're going to discuss
today. So Jen, go ahead and give
us a little recap there.
Jenn Gregory: Okay, great.
Thanks, Lacey. And Cindy and,
Toby, it's a pleasure to be with
you all as well. And good
morning, everyone. Like Lacey
said, you know, we had a great
opportunity last month to visit
with the CEO of National League
of Cities, and we learned a lot,
we learned that this American
rescue plan funding that is
coming to cities and counties
across the country, really, for
the first time ever. Cities will
specifically receive a federal
appropriation to help rebuild
and recover from this global
pandemic. And so a lot of the
discussion was focused on how
should those funds be used? How
can they be used? And what
should city leaders really focus
on when they start building
their plan for rebuilding and or
recovering from this pandemic?
You know, a question that we
keep receiving and I don't know
that any of us have the perfect
answer just yet, is how can
these funds be used? We are
expecting an update from the
Treasury in the next 10 days or
so that should provide some more
information. We do know that
those cities that have a
population of over 50,000 should
be receiving their appropriation
in the next two weeks or so. And
those communities with a
population of less than 50,000
should be receiving their
funding around mid June. So
now's definitely the time to be
taking in all of these resources
and beginning to make plans. But
when we do look at the permitted
uses that are laid out in the
bill for the American rescue
plan for cities and counties.
The very first bullet point that
is listed is to support
industries, negatively affected
by the pandemic, specifically
small businesses. We know that
there are a lot of funding
opportunities right now that
will go directly to small
businesses through the paycheck
Protection Program, e IDL, and
some of these other new
resources. But what we're really
hearing more than ever, is that
cities can take a big role in
helping to not only support
their small businesses with
funding, but with technical
assistance and training. And
we're going to talk a lot about
that today. So we're thrilled to
have all of you I want to point
out that we do have a couple of
resources on our website at
retail strategies.com, you can
watch that recording of the
webinar that we had with
National League of Cities, as
well as download our summary of
the American rescue plan. But
now it's my pleasure to
introduce my colleague, Cindy
Stewart. She's the Vice
President of Community
Engagement at retail strategies.
And she brings with her over 20
years of experience in community
development, retail real estate
advocacy, and public policy
where She previously served as a
senior executive at the
International Council of
shopping centers. We're thrilled
to have Cindy on our team. She's
a wonderful partner. And she
brings a lot of contacts with
her as well. She and Toby have
worked together for many years.
And so now I'm going to turn it
over to Cindy to introduce our
special guest, Cindy.
Cynthia Stewart: Thanks, Jen.
appreciate it so much. It's a
pleasure to be with all of you
today, and you're in for a real
treat. I've had the pleasure of
serving on numerous panels with
Toby and he's always got
something worthwhile to say, and
some, you're gonna get some
important takeaways, I have all
the confidence in the world. And
you, Toby. So Toby, as Lacey
said, serves as the president
and CEO for the Council for
development finance agencies, as
we've referred to CDFA, which is
a nonprofit organization whose
mission is to strengthen,
strengthen, strengthen the
efforts of state and local
development finance agencies,
which is really a mouthful. I
think Toby can clarify some of
that for us. But what they are
really focused on is fostering
job creation and economic growth
with tax exempt, and other
public private partnership
finance programs. So that's in a
nutshell, what CDFA does, it's a
lot more complicated than that.
I'm sure Toby will tell you. So
Toby, we do know that COVID-19
has had a staggering effect on
businesses large and small. And
so that has somewhat changed the
focus of state and local
development finance agencies. So
rather than being focused on job
creation and economic growth,
it's a little more focused on
recovery and survival of
existing businesses. So has that
really changed the focus of CDFA
to be able to respond to those
needs of the finance agencies?
Toby Rittner: Well, thank you
first, for inviting me and
Lacey. And Jen, thank you for
the kind introductions. This is
normally reverse. You know,
Cindy, and years past, I'd have
been asking you to speak at our
webinar about all this stuff. So
I appreciate this sort of weird
transition in our professional
careers. And also, thank you for
letting me be here and be part
of this. Hi, everybody, I'm
coming to you from Columbus,
Ohio. Somebody just pinged me
and told me I should smile more.
I don't know what to tell you.
But I'm about to talk about
finance for the next hour. So
you tell me to smile more at the
end? And then we'll see how we
did there. But yeah, I mean, my
organization CDFA, which I've
been part of for 17 years, and
we've been around now 39 years,
next year, we'll celebrate our
40th anniversary really just
focuses on the way in which we
unlock capital and communities,
how do we remove barriers to
capital and allow for capital to
flow? That can be Oh, someone
said, Oh, ha, oh, that could be
coming from big infrastructure
projects. So you've got
broadband, or you got water, you
got roads, bridges, and sewers?
How do you unlock capital for
that, and it can be all the way
down to an entrepreneur, who
might need $50,000 to
commercialize their business or
to move into a storefront or
whatever it might be. So we look
at the whole gamut of the
development finance landscape,
focusing on that one point that
I made, which is removing
barriers, so sort of take that
as like the the item in the back
of your head, removing the
barriers to capital, why isn't
the capital flowing? And if you
remove that barrier, then
capital will flow to that need.
And so you asked the question is
that changed CFA? Strangely, it
hasn't. It's actually just
reinforced our long standing
methodology that sort of the key
to figuring out how cities and
communities can move forward is
by looking at the flow of
capital looking at the flow of
wealth and in capital
absorption. And why don't we see
investment in certain areas or
why don't we see investment in
types of people or types of
businesses, and it's because of
that barrier. So it hasn't
really changed us from the
viewpoint of as an organization,
but it has made us feel very
grateful for this is very
important right now and prior To
the pandemic. People kind of
took finances like the last guy
to invite to the party, you
invited the planner, you invited
the economic developer, you
invited the mayor invited
everybody else and you came up
with a grandioso plan. And then
someone said, How the heck are
we going to pay for this? And
then they called us. And so what
this has done in reverse is it's
actually brought us to the table
first saying, We got issues, how
are we gonna pay for all this in
a startup position finance as
which I speak to as like a
living thing. Position finance
at the front of the discussion,
as opposed to in the back in
terms of what it's done in
communities, not from our
perspective is the impacts have
been pretty monumental, right?
You're seeing major small
businesses struggle. But what
you're also seeing is, if you
look at the lifeline of
projects, you've seen
redevelopment projects have to
extend you know, they had
expected leases, they had
expected users and expected
human beings to park and all of
that stuff. If it was a 10 month
timeline, it's now an 18 month
timeline, because now Nobody's
really sure when it will come
back. And if it will come back
in the same way. You've seen
these weird tertiary effects and
cities that I don't know that
you can ever plan for, what do
you do and 10,000 workers are no
longer going into your downtown,
but they're working from home,
and where they pay taxes is
where they work. And so you're
now starting to see a year into
this. And this is what we said
way back in April was that it's
not the impact right now we'll
get over that it's the impact in
18 months, because now tax tax
revenues and tax flows are
changing. So Sandy in our days,
like if you did a TIF district
in downtown, and now no one's
coming to it, there's no
revenues coming in. And
therefore, you're now seeing
potentially those districts not
having the revenues coming in to
pay on the debt service. So what
we're looking at now in
communities, and we're looking
at this, from the entrepreneur,
to the big development project,
is whether or not assumptions
from the past still hold true.
And that's kind of been for me
the biggest the biggest thing
communities will have to look at
I did a webinar maybe four
months ago in or 1500, mayors
and city managers on it, because
they're starting to look at now,
this impacts down the road, not
the impacts from like the
immediate stress. And say there
was for us, there's been three
stages of the pandemic, the
first one was in pardon my
language, I don't hope I don't
offend anybody with it. But it
was like just Holy shit. Like,
what do we do? This is a
nightmare. This is scary,
everybody's locked in their
houses. And it was stabilized
whatever you can help whoever
you can get stimulus, you know,
get direct payments out, get
whatever you can to stabilize
current economy. PPP came along
with that. So like maybe people
would keep their employees even
though restaurants were closed
and service industry was closed.
And you think about like small
impacts, my housekeeper couldn't
come into my house for six
months, right? I wouldn't let
her in my house. Well, she lives
off of cleaning houses, magnify
her by, you know, 30 million or
30 million microenterprises. In
US, she's a microenterprise, you
magnify that, and it becomes a
real a real challenge for
destabilize. So that was stage
one. Second stage was, you know,
sort of like this recovery like
this faux recovery, right? Like,
well, we're through that
immediate crisis. And we're
starting to get people moving
around. But I think that's where
people started realize you had
to refinance debt, you had to
look at the way existing debt
has been repaid. You had to go
in and look at borrowers,
businesses and say, Well, what's
your future going to look like,
if you're not going to be
around, we got to figure out how
to liquidate that. Whatever this
is, and return it. And then you
saw a lot of the cool stuff
happen, like looking at
regulatory, you know, how many
of you now drink beers out in,
in the gardens in your
communities? And you couldn't do
that before? Right? Like you
couldn't carry around a beer? I
mean, if you order beer online
now, or you can get it delivered
to your house, that seems like
small Yeah, right. Like I have,
of course, like small stuff. But
think about the change in our
economy, we were so worried
about the gig economy dying, and
the gig economy actually picked
up because now there was a guy
who can make money off of
delivering beer, to me at my
house, changes everything, it
changes the entire outlook on
your local economy. That's where
you saw some really cool
innovations. And then now we're
looking at stage three, which is
we got to get back to business.
And we got to get back to
business like pedal to the
metal, meaning investment, long
range thinking, the whole world
has changed. Cities will change
forever. school systems will
change forever Little League
Soccer programs will change
forever. Retail. I mean, the
reason we're on one of these
calls will change forever, it
may never go back to what it was
before. So now all this cool
innovation is coming on, like
how do we make How do we change
that and how do we go with the
flow on and I just think it's
kind of a cool time, and we'll
get into some of the resources
available. Hearing your future
questions. My hope that was a
good starting spot.
Unknown: Oh, that's great. So
you touched on the small
businesses and how some of them
really went into heavy decline
right at the very beginning,
we're close from month on in.
And some of them have started to
recover from that initial
decline. But we know that others
are still lagging way behind
where they were, you know, two
years ago, and some of them
recovered, but then they've had
subsequent declines. And we sort
of touched on this, there's a
lot of, you know, financing
programs, a, you know, grants,
things that are out there. So,
where do these small businesses
turn? And where did the local
governments who are trying to
assist them turn, you know, to
find the best place for
assistance and guidance to get
through this process and find
the funds that are available to
help them, you know, recover?
You know,
for frame of reference, the last
14 months has been the largest
expenditure in the history of
federal government for economic
development. So when you think
about that, and then this
proposed new infrastructure bill
would obviously be the largest
expenditure in history of the
government for economic
development. But just in the
past 12 months through
stimuluses, we've seen so much
money infused into the economic
development world, this sort of
amorphous economic development
where we call it so we gotta put
frame of reference, the federal
government is effectively
drinking from a firehose, you
take an agency like the EDA,
which I love, and it's such an
important federal agency, their
appropriation, you know,
quadruple more than quadrupled.
In one day, they went from a
small 400 $400 million dollar
organization to having $3
billion of allocation to get
out. Now, they didn't hire 50
new people to get that money out
the door, it's still the same
people that have to do it. So it
is a very complicated federal
landscape right now. And we're
doing the best we can obviously
to get, you know, the staffing
and lineup the guidance, and we
know we're going to talk about
the direct payments to cities
here in a second. But so I'd say
I'm not I'm honestly not
promoting. But if you want to
know about everything that's
going on with the stimulus bills
and all the federal resources,
go to our website, we check
every diamond dollar that's been
appropriate EDA, EPA, HUD, USDA,
Department of Treasury CDFI
Fund, we have our COVID Resource
Center, we have every federal
program that's been appropriated
from PPP to even the new one I'm
going to talk about here, SP
lspci. So check that out. First,
I would not rely on and I hope
there's don't make anybody upset
hear from the federal
government, I would not rely on
the federal agencies, they don't
have the manpower, they can't
train you on what an EDA
revolving loan fund is right
now, they can barely return your
call. They are so busy. You
know, the USDA doesn't have time
to train, you want an
intermediate over lending
program, they don't have time to
teach you about, you know, WIFIA
in grants for solar panels and,
and housing state stabilization.
They their new their new
administration, transitioning
staff, but be they just don't
have the people to be able to
give you that kind of education.
One shameless plug, we have a
thing called our federal
financing webinar series, it's
eight times a year, you log on
for two hours, and you learn
about what's going on with the
feds. And it's here's a program,
for instance, WIFIA just put
out, which is water
infrastructure, just put out a
Notice of Funding Availability,
I think, like two days ago, and
that's for water infrastructure
projects. We'll do a whole thing
on that during our federal
financing webinar series. The
only thing I'd say to look at
and this sort of goes to the
question as well as know your
federal agencies, but really
know which ones can actually
engage in you, if you don't have
resources to make match. Don't
bother trying to go after
funding sources that might be
used but require match don't
even don't even mess with it,
try to go to the places which
don't require match, or where
they're allowing sub allocations
through CDFIs or development
finance agencies, or other
entities that you may have built
sub allocate out of. And then
the last thing I mentioned is
look at your segments of your
economy. So food sector was hit
really hard retail sector was
hit really hard. Seasonal sector
was hit really hard. A lot of
communities rely on seasonal
like tourism, and that was hit
really, really hard because you
can't travel anywhere in large
groups. The other one that was
hit really hard to it's hard to
see is manufacturing. And it's
it's it's sort of down the value
chain, right? You've got the
vendors who provide the raw
materials and they can't get the
raw materials to the
manufacturer who can produce
whatever it is they produce. And
so you're seeing huge backlogs
on on things and anecdotally I
ordered a soft top for my my
partner's Jeep, and it's weeks
in expect ordered because they
can't fulfill the orders because
they don't have the raw material
to make soft tops for Jeeps,
which is just crazy to think
about, right? We don't we don't
think about that downstream
element of all this. So I would
look, if you're a regional group
or a big city, look at the
downstream vendors and what they
might be needing. And it might
be things that they that you
never even thought of. So that's
one thing I'd look at. And then
I want to mention, we were
really involved in the in both
the Trump and the Biden
administration, we have been
sort of trusted allies to just
provide guidance. When President
Biden took office, we started
briefing the White House and the
administration on ways in which
to somewhat support small
businesses and kind of
rejuvenate that sector of the
economy. Congress did pass the
State Small Business Credit
Initiative as part of the rescue
plan. It's a $10 billion piece
of legislation that we authored,
and it will give money to states
that then will go out in the
form of either direct lending,
loan participation loan
guarantee, or early stage
venture capital to small
businesses. It's $10 billion
divided by 50. states and
territories. So 56 or 54
different entities. If you're
not aware of SSP CI, you should
be and I'm happy to talk more
about it as we go along. But one
dimension that's a big one
that's authorized right now.
Lacy Beasley: Well, Toby, I want
to thank you for your work on
that on behalf of all the cities
and states that we that we work
with, because you did author
that and 10 billions a
substantial amount of money that
can certainly help or,
Unknown: Hey, we asked for, we
asked for 3 billion, and they
gave us 10. So we'll tell you,
Lacy Beasley: when that never
happens. It's fantastic. And to
your point, you have a
phenomenal website, and I get
your newsletter. And what I like
about it is it's it's not just
vague recommendations, it's
actual case studies, case study
after case study of how you are
breaking down barriers for
capital and in a lot of
different ways. And I love how
you assemble that. And so thank
you for your work on that.
Because it can be completely
overwhelming to even know where
to go with these resources. And
to that point, I think for some
of our community leaders, if
they say yes, absolutely. We've
wanted this for years. And now
there's finally funding to
support these initiatives, then,
you know, when you look at the
breakdown of what you talked
about with the SSB a seed i in
this state, small business, what
is it the State Small Business
Credit Initiative? Is that
right? It's a horrible name,
Unknown: trying to get the name
change.
Lacy Beasley: So forgive me for
stumbling through that. But
either way, a great program with
a lot of funding. But when you
look at that program, that
you've set up the 28 billion and
grants to the hard hit
restaurants and bars, the other
16 billion and grants for live
performance venues such as
theaters and museums, you're
looking at all these different
funding sources. And then you
also have the emergency disaster
loan. Right? So you're looking
at all these different things?
And what would be your
recommendation to community
leaders that are trying to
establish either a loan program
or a grant program, and
determining how that they can
stack or leverage these funds in
a beneficial way? Is there a
certain formula or
recommendation that you've found
that works for community leaders
to administer these funds? To
support their small businesses?
Unknown: Yeah, it's such a hard
question. I mean, you know, keep
in mind, nothing changed in the
city, they still have the same
amount of staff, they still have
the same levels of expertise.
You all have applied for federal
funds before, you know what kind
of an absolute nightmare it is.
None of that changed, right. And
so what you're really asking
cities and towns is that in the
middle of a pandemic, and a
crisis that we never could have
imagined, oh, by the way, here's
a truckload of federal
resources. First, you got to
flush through and figure out
what it is. And if it applies to
your community, or your project,
B if you even have status to
apply, because it's not for
cities and counties, it's for
businesses, and it's for
shuttered venues and nonprofits,
and then how you actually work
with those potential recipients
of those resources to make
application or to go through the
process. And then it just
becomes almost overwhelming. So
I respect it. And I know how
hard it is. So my recommendation
is this. This is gonna maybe be
a little Cavalier, but like, you
either go all in or you don't,
you know, you either commit to
going after these resources or
you will be left behind because
there will be places that do it
really, really well. And they're
gonna go they're gonna go really
hardcore for shuttered venues. A
really good example when I know
that least 10 cities that are
actively running at that program
right now and they want to get
resources for shuttered venue.
When you look at restaurants and
bars, the restaurant program,
that's going to probably be
dominated I hate to say it by
big cities, because they're
going to have the resources to
go and get their big restaurant
tours, right? The guys that own
810 restaurants in the community
are franchisees, and they're
going to be able to go and get
them and be real active because
they're sophisticated, you know,
owners. So my advice is either
go all in, like, hire a
professional on your team whose
job is just to go after these
resources. And then also
consider your partners out
there. And this is really good
CDFIs development finance
agencies, lots of nonprofits,
this is what they do for a
living day work in this space.
So engage them and say, We will
be will sign your letters, we'll
we'll do whatever we can to get
this in front of the senator or
from the Congress person to help
really push getting involved in
and then the third thing I'd say
is, you might need to hire
professionals. There are people
that write grants all day long
in new sleep, we do it we help
people I'm not suggesting us I
mean, we do it very limited. But
there are groups like sidenote
sustainable development
strategies, they will write your
grant applications for you. For
a fee, they actually take a VIG,
like they take a tiny little bit
on the grant winnings. But who
cares, because they're better at
writing grants than you'll ever
be. And they can be a really
good resource for you. So
there's, that's kind of like
three things I think about. The
other thing I think about is I
tell I tell cities this all the
time, doesn't really, I gotta be
careful here. It doesn't really
matter what it says in the
description of the program. Go
column, like, it may have some
esoteric language in there, like
the shutter venue program, it's
hard to interpret, if you just
read the website, that was SBA
website, whoever is
administering that, it doesn't
make a lot of sense. Because
it's all in like federal jargon,
just call the SBA and say,
Here's my project, we'll make it
fit in the program, you know,
and they might go, I'm not sure
it fits, just keep pushing it. I
mean, there's so much
flexibility, these are the most
flexible programs we've ever
had. And just I would say just
really go hard about trying to
get your program your project to
fit into it. And then in your
community, it's probably time to
start, you know, putting your
mask on and going back out to
the businesses, giving them a
sheet that says are you taking
advantage of PPP Are you taking
advantage of shuttered venue, a
taking advantage of this, and
look, folks, like, we're in the
modern world, you got to be
accountable, if your businesses
aren't gonna go after all these
resources very much more you can
do for them, you did your job.
So it's about going out and just
leaving that flyer on your desk
and saying, We want you to stay
here, but you got to be
aggressive, and you gotta go
after it. And I think that's
kind of kind of the way I've
been instructing cities to be
really aggressive about this,
you either get yours, or someone
else's gonna, and that's kind of
how it's going to work under the
programs.
Lacy Beasley: Well, I love that
idea of of just listing all the
programs and as community
leaders going in and talking to
your business owners and saying,
What do you want? What do you
have? What do you need? And how
do we stack these and assemble
them? You know, on your behalf?
I think that is so important.
And what Jen has continued to
remind me of throughout the
course of this is these funds
are there and they are intended
to be used. And so there are you
know, there is the the bill has
the criteria and American rescue
plan funds, for instance, they
have you know, the bill has the
criteria written now, and we
just continue to receive
questions. Well, what happens
when we receive these funds, Jen
just gave the the timeline. And
then we, you know, a lot of
community leaders right now are
working on their master plan of
what they're going to do with
it. And there's so much of
fatigue from the Cares Act
funding and fear of this funding
that potentially additional
regulations or reporting will be
laid on them after the funds
have been spent. And they run
the risk of perhaps not being
reimbursed or an audit where
they're in violation or whether
they've spent them the right
way, but the reporting to prove
that is so burdensome on the
their internal staff, that it's
hard to keep up with. So that's
some of the feedback that we're
hearing and what are what's your
pulse on the additional
regulation and guidelines that
might be coming out? Or will
there be more? And if so, what's
that going to look like? And I
think you've hit on a great
point of a lot of these months
for restaurants and bars and
live performance venues will
probably go to the major
metropolitan areas. The majority
of communities that we work with
and probably you work with are
under 50,000. And so they're the
ones that really have to hustle
and have a lot of questions
around this. So what are you
hearing as far as the potential
additional layers are a lot of
regulation and reporting that
might come out around the HRPA.
Unknown: Yeah, it's it's such a
hard, it's such a hard
landscape. This is just me and
my, I'm going off the
reservation. And secondly, from
a public policy perspective. And
I know Cindy, you did this a
long time in Washington, DC, you
know, this. It's like, quick,
quick program with not a ton,
not a ton of thought put into
how it's going to be
administered like, yeah, here's
$28 million. Who the hell's
going to administer this? What's
the guidance? What's the
timeline? Like what staff at
Treasury is going to put this in
place? What people at SBA, and
then they go, oh, yeah, well,
we'll get you answers on that. I
mean, that's been the whole
situation. And I don't blame
them, because it's the federal
government trying to react. And
the federal government is not a
reactive enterprise. Like it's
not, it's not well, that's what
they're good at. But so I do
think they're trying really
hard. I think they're working
really, really hard at the
federal agencies. And I give
them a ton of credit for how
hard they're working. Having
said that, this is, this is a no
lawyer, but my professional
advice is, who cares, they're
not going to come back at you.
It's not reasonable. There is so
much resource being put out
there that take the direct
payments to cities. So you go
and get aggressive, you put your
plan together, you get your
payment and two weeks, and you
put it out, you put it into
projects, do you think the Biden
administration or the Treasury
Department really has the
resources and are going to want
to come at you for doing
something to save and secure
your study? That's, it's not
really founded in reality, like,
what is it 19,000 cities are
eligible for this program, you
know, about, you know, above or
below 50,000. They're not coming
after Tiffin, Ohio, they're just
not doing it. And I might, a
lawyer is probably going to kill
me on this and say, Why would
you give that kind of advice? I
don't, I've been doing this for
21 years. And they're not,
they're not going to come after
Tiffin, Ohio who put $5 million
in a water sewer system, or in a
small business revolving loan
fund or in a K 12. Educational
revolving, revolving fund,
they're just not going to do it.
Because the money is supposed to
go into projects, it's not
supposed to sit on shelves.
Furthermore, if you just decide
to, you know, shore up your
operating budget, they're not
going to come after you for that
either, because your city is
struggling. And you can make the
case that we didn't have tax
rolls for the last 12 months.
And if we don't, you know,
continue to pay our debt service
or invest in our police
department, or whatever it might
be, we're not going to remain
strong. So I think you should do
my advice is oh, is this plan
for audits, right? Like, make
your plan? Like you're an
auditor, go find an auditor
who's a real like pain in the
butt who's just like that person
in your community and questions
everything, and give them your
plan and say, What would you
what would you not like about
this plan from an audit
perspective? And they might go,
Well, what's your
accountability? Or if you sub
allocate to that nonprofit? How
are you going to track them? Or
how are you going to monitor
them? Or if you directly wind
into businesses? How will you
make your credit decisions? And
what is your structure for how
you guide the fund beyond, you
know, the two year period? And
if that auditor says, Hey, man,
you're answering all the
questions really good, then you
can plan for a Federal Audit,
like that's not impossible. So
we've been telling states like
on SSB CI, and on this program
on the direct payments, cities
plan for an auditor, like plan
for an auditor to bust you down.
And if you can answer all those
questions and have rationale
behind what you're doing, then
you're good. I'm gonna go back
to my other one, which is if
you're a small community, hire a
professional. I'm dead serious
hire a planning firm, or an
intermediary, nonprofit, someone
that has resources that can come
in, and really quickly put a
great plan together. I just
think small cities struggle so
much with capacity. And there's
going to be a constant with
reporting requirement under this
federal under the direct
payments, just kind of plan for
all that and professionals can
really help you do that. And
it's probably worth paying for
it. Quite frankly. I don't know
if that answered the question.
But no, absolutely
Lacy Beasley: plan for an audit
and plan for reporting. And if
your staffs at capacity, then
hire professional to help that
makes perfect sense.
Unknown: Well, it was a
conversation about combinations
as well, I can consider these
come together and work together
on these funds. I'd like to
think that could happen, but I
really don't believe it will. I
mean, we're all selfish, like in
our communities, we're going to
get ours and use it our way. But
if there is an opportunity, like
you know, out in Nebraska, they
have these economic development
districts, these big cogs,
right, that are official, but it
wouldn't be really neat if some
of those groups came together
and thought about like maybe the
middle how Regional Planning
Commission comes together and
says why isn't everybody put a
little bit of their money And
for our regional broadband
system or for our original sewer
system upgrade, like that would
be kind of neat. And I'd like to
see some of that come out of
this. Yeah.
Jenn Gregory: Well, and I think,
you know, I couldn't agree with
you more, Toby about, you know,
the fact that these funds are
intended to be used, and there
are 19,000 municipalities not
counting the counties. And so,
you know, the money needs to be
spent, and as long as these
cities can, can provide a
reasonable accounting for why
they spent the money that they
did, they need to go ahead and
get moving on that. And, as
Lazio, alluded to earlier, you
know, we are hearing really from
every city that we talked to,
well, we're just waiting for
more information. We're just
waiting. We're waiting, we're
waiting. And we understand that,
you know, like Lacey mentioned,
the Cares Act was really
challenging, or cities,
primarily because the states
were controlling the use of all
of those funds. But with AARP,
you know, that money's going
directly to cities. And, and I
think, you know, from our
perspective, the bill does
provide for permitted uses, you
know, supporting small business
and industries that have been
negatively impacted by the
pandemic, you know, replacing
lost revenue and operating
accounts, infrastructure, and
providing premium pay to
essential workers. And that's,
that's it, there you go. And so
as it relates to small
businesses, you know, there,
there are so many funds that can
provide grants and even low
interest loans to small
businesses. But what about
training, you know, this is
something that, that we have
really seen is that small
businesses that have received
enough money to pay their rent,
they're still struggling,
because they're not online. And
as consumer behavior has
changed, we're spending more
money online, we've seen that
small businesses really need to
kind of modernize a little bit
and implement some omni channel
retail strategy. So any thoughts
on that in terms of technical
assistance and training? And and
what is your recommendation to
cities that we've told them go
spend this money? If they're
wanting to support their small
businesses? What's the best way
for them to do that?
Unknown: Yeah, well, it's, it's
amazing. That question is like
everywhere right now. You know,
there are cities. So I come to
you from Columbus, Ohio, there
are cities like my city, we're
not struggling folks, like we're
busting at the seams. We have
people flocking to move to
Central Ohio. Our home values
are through the roof. I sold my
home, I put my home on the
market, two Fridays ago, it sold
in 12 hours, and I bought a new
place the very next day. That's
how quick the market is, right?
It's not. So there are places
that are doing really well. So
my first thing to make that make
sense is there's a there's
something happening in our
country where people are coming
from the edges now, and they're
coming back to middle America.
I've had friends that have moved
back to Cincinnati. I'm from
Cleveland, and I know people
that have moved back to
Cleveland, I know people that
have moved back to Iowa and back
to Minnesota and places where,
you know, they were out in
Baltimore, and they were in
Boston, and they were in DC, and
they were in LA and San
Francisco. And now they're like,
I don't need to be here, because
I can work from anywhere. So if
you're a city that's on the
cusp, or if you're a great place
to live, you have a chance to
rebrand yourself from a
workforce perspective and to
say, we've got an amazing place
to work. So you do invest in
broadband, you know, get your
broadband and make it amazing.
Like you don't need fancy
downtown's, you need broadband,
right? People will find where
they want to live. Go back to
the old school, whatever
happened to vocational and
community colleges and the
places where they could teach
those skills. We need welders
right now, the President is
going to pass a $2 trillion
infrastructure bill do you think
we need more of me or more
welders, we're going to need
more welders, a hell of a lot
more welders, and people that
know how to do those. In some
communities, the trades are like
booming right now you can't hire
a contractor to put a driveway
and you can't hire a contractor
to drywall. So there's going to
be this movement afoot to sort
of go back. And let's start to
teach people how to do those
things again, and I think it's
awesome. So if I had this money
in study, I might look at my
schools and say, How can we go
and teach these skills? How can
we invest for the next two,
three years on these skills,
because we're going to need them
as we grow, because we're a
great place, we're gonna put
broadband and so anybody can
move here, we're gonna put
affordable housing and so anyone
can move here. And then we're
going to teach people how to do
trade skills, how to brew beer,
how to create, you know, that
kind of economy that stays even
during a crisis. So I know it's
not the best answer in the
world. But I do think we've got
to start thinking about kind of
how you build that lifecycle. We
have this chance. Everything's
new, right? Everything's
different now. So we have a
chance to make new things. The
last thing I will mention is
looking at the hardest hit
sectors, African Americans and
African women Economic
businesses were
disproportionately damaged and
harmed and perhaps destroyed.
During the pandemic, one in five
black businesses will go out of
business. If we don't hone in on
the parts of our economy and the
parts of our communities that
were most hard to hit, they're
going to continue to regress.
And so we've got to kind of
really focus in on those spaces.
Someone asked a question about
all this stuff in different
languages. Yeah, hire an
interpreter and rewrite it all
in different languages.
Philadelphia has done that.
Philadelphia has their loan
programs translated in 11
languages, 11 different
languages, like that's really
cool. And that's a way to
connect with the, you know,
multilingual part of your
community. I don't know if I
answered the question. And then
when I kind of got on a rampage,
Lacy Beasley: no devil shuts a
lot of great information you
shared. And I do want to one of
the questions that was asked is
directly to the point that you
just made about how do they
determine which businesses to
help? I mean, there is this idea
in some camps that say, you
know, that there are certain
businesses that are just going
to close regardless? And are you
throwing good money after bad?
Right? That's the question. So
can you speak to that or advise
on setting up programs for
really, you know, just frequent,
just really struggling business?
Is that a good place to put it?
Unknown: I got a great answer to
that. And I'm gonna get tomatoes
thrown at me if this was a live
event. Listen, folks, stop
giving out grants. It's as
simple as that you give grants
to businesses, and they have no
reason to pay it back or to
create a bit now, I mean, not
not like back a year ago, like
grants was keeping people alive,
we get that we're to the point
where you need to have a
business plan, you need to have
sales, you need to be able to
show your future. If you're a
business that relies on 100
people being in your
establishment every hour, it's
not going to be that way for a
while. So can you survive on 25
people being in there, if you're
a bar restaurant, I know we keep
using those, but think about
other, you know, other examples.
I don't know, it's gonna make me
maybe somewhere, but I do yoga,
and I love yoga, you can have
nine people in my yoga studio at
a time, like this ridiculous.
There's usually like 35 people
in my yoga studio time. So you
gotta go to that business and
say, Can you operate off of
910 1112 people per class, and
if not, like, you're gonna take
out some low interest loans, but
we're gonna make this a
partnership, not a grant. So I
don't want to sound like I'm
callous. But we can't be on this
grant mentality, long term, it
just creates a model is not
sustainable. And then the other
thing I mentioned is that, we
get to go back to some stuff
that I know Cindy probably
worked on long time ago, which
is remember when we actually
consulted with small businesses,
and we walk them through the
process of what it's like to be
a small business and how to
order their goods and services,
best ways to hire, how to deal
with HR and the adjudication of
legal and accounting issues, we
gotta go back to that stuff.
Because these hard work in small
businesses, you know, what
they've been doing for the last
year just trying to survive,
that's what they'll say, I'm
just trying to survive. Now we
got to go in and go, Okay, you
survived. Now, let's get your
practices back in order, let's
get better accounting, better
legal, better service, better
training, and we got going on
that level with them, as opposed
to just here's a grant, good
luck, I hope you survive. It
just doesn't work that way
anymore.
Which is really that technical
assistance for small businesses,
which I think it's a great
investment, you know, that
cities could make with some of
this money. And then we're also
hearing Toby about small
businesses who just can't seem
to get workers hired, you know,
it's hard for them to get people
back to work. I don't know if
that's the question just for
you, Toby are generally not
my expertise. But I got I'm sure
I got an opinion. But that's not
my expertise. But it's a huge
issue. Right now. We have it
here. We have two job openings.
And I can't find a single
candidate. And I mean, a good
salary full time benefitted job,
and I can't get a candidate. Not
one day. So I
don't know, let's write some
partnerships with you know, the
Department of Labor's and each
of the states, you know, trying
to job fairs. I mean, that might
be something that a city could
do you know what some of this
money is actually to sponsor
some job fairs and maybe even
promote the small businesses at
that. Because, you know, job
fairs happen for large
corporations all the time when
there's these large number of
jobs available. And so maybe
it's the job fair for small
businesses. I mean, that's just
an idea that I have, but if
anyone else has any good ideas
or best practice to share, just
send it through to us on the
q&a, and we'll share it with
everyone.
I do want to mention one thing
we're doing some work with the
Robert Wood Johnson Foundation
right now on sort of the way in
which communities engage with
minority participant communities
of color, and what we're and
we're looking at it from a pure
lending perspective, but as an
offshoot of that what we learned
is that there's not a lot of
meeting them where they are type
of activities, you can have a
job fair, and probably 92% of
the people that show up are
going to be white. But, and I'm
not suggesting, like anything
has been is wrong with all this.
It's just Are you going out and
engaging the minority community?
You know, there's distrust in
our country right now. And
people are having a real hard
time talking to each other,
because of these differences.
But it's our jobs as governments
to go out, find out where in the
black community, there is a
meetings about people and
needing jobs and upward mobility
and meet them where they are and
say, How can we engage you in
these job opportunities. And
that's the one thing that I hope
comes out of all of this is that
communities change the way they
engage, I heard from a
community, a really great
community that's, like, 45%,
African American, so I assumed
they had a great, like
engagement process. All of their
loan deals come from referrals,
they don't even go out into that
black community and say, What's
your business? What's your plan?
Do you need staff and I was so
disappointed to hear that
because I thought such highly of
them to find out that they
weren't actually meeting the
minority communities where they
are, go out to your Latino
communities, find out what their
experience is right now? And
say, Would you mind coming to
this? Or can we bring it to you,
let's bring these jobs to you
and get some training, and get
people into this. So it's also
about doing this as opposed to
just, hey, we're gonna you know,
we're gonna have a job fair
college kids will come but I
don't know if the rest of the
community well,
Lacy Beasley: Jen, you have a,
you have a good story around
that if you don't mind sharing,
because it's exactly to your
point, Toby. And, and Jen leads
our small business support
initiative, a lot of communities
are recognize this and engaged
us to help with their small
businesses. And Jen is leading
that and has a great, and that's
our philosophy as well meet them
where they are. And there is a
lot of distrust among
entrepreneurs, sometimes on how
they can access these funds.
Jenn Gregory: Yeah, that's
right. And you know, Toby, and
our audience, you know, what we
really heard? Is that exactly
what you're saying that a lot of
business, business owners of
color, are not sure how to
navigate these federal
resources. There's a little bit
of distrust, of course, and some
beer. And so, you know, we
worked with a business directly
through our small business
support program, and, you know,
learn that really with just some
basic hand holding and
connecting with existing
programs and resources, and even
just kind of coaching them
through opportunities, options,
how their business can be nimble
partner with delivery services,
maybe shift slightly their
business model, through some
training, that there was hope,
you know, for the first time in
a long time throughout this
pandemic. And so, like Lacey
said, and really, to read,
reiterate what you've been
saying, it does take kind of an
active role of the city to
really reach out to those
communities, whatever they might
be, for engagement to have those
conversations rather than just
well, the information is posted
on our website. Having
conversations,
Unknown: I wanted to piggyback
on that. If I can piggyback on
that for just a second. So as
part of part of our study with
Robert Wood Johnson Foundation,
we were asked to just figure out
kind of the three real or
perceived reasons why African
Americans don't bank with
mainline banking for you know,
business loans. And I don't know
these topics. So we did this
study, and the study that what
came out was Trump's mistrust.
Like if you're a black person,
and you know, you're gonna get
rejected when you walk into
bank, why would you ever go in
the bank? You know, that guy was
number one. The second one was
that, you know, there was no one
in that bank that looked like
them, or representative, which
was, you know, is obvious and
disappointing. And the third one
was that lack of engagement,
right? It's, you know, they
didn't, the banks don't reach
out, communities maybe don't
reach out. So what we actually
found through all this, and this
is just I tell everybody, this
statistic, I don't know why this
just amazes me, but African
Americans are the largest
consumer of fintech. But think
about that for a second. Why
financial technology ways in
which to access and borrow money
using technology. And it's
because they don't have to go
into a bank and ask anybody for
approval of a loan. It's
amazing. If I'm a community with
a large African American
population, and I want to get
loans out to black businesses,
I'm going to create a FinTech
model that's like, African
American Financial Service
program like this would be
awesome, because it really
knocks that barrier down and
they're consumers of this
product. So it makes a lot of
sense. I just think it's like
really neat stuff. So if I had
some of this money in I was in a
city, I think about programs
that broke those barriers down
that met those borrowers where
they are goes out to where they
are. A lot of our immigrant
community does not have X As to
the three digit credit score,
well, let me tell you something,
I don't evaluate people based on
a three digit credit score. It
is a factor of evaluation, but
it's not just you know, the way
you say loan or no loan, let's
look at character and let's look
at their business plan. Let's
look at their market, let's look
at things we can help them
improve on to be a better
business owner. That's how you
evaluated and I'd be creating
programs and solutions that
actually meet those borrowers
where they are as opposed to
just ask them to fit into your
program. Sorry, I'm off my
soapbox. No,
Lacy Beasley: it's it's a great
recommendation. And that is very
specifically the questions were
receiving is, okay, if we want
to support small businesses, how
do we structure it, and what
you're recommending is set up a
loan program, be intentional
about reaching out to them,
layer it with technical
assistance, to overcome that
barrier of comfort and supply
that access to capital break
down those walls. And that's a
great recommendation. For a lot
of communities, I think the
guidelines are that the funds
need to be spent by 2024. And
something Clarence Anthony
really said was I want I want
community leaders to get very
creative on this, and establish
programs that they can then
track. And so we can use that
case study of how that was well
used and served as a catalyst
for recovery and stability for
the community. And so find those
that were hardest hit, establish
temporary programs that can be
administered before 2024 be able
to track them, but make sure
that they have lasting impact.
And, and he talked a lot about
this idea, and you've hit on it
to broadband so important, and
the physical infrastructure that
our communities, community
leaders often administer through
roads, water, sewer, broadband,
all these things are so
incredibly important, but also
layering that with elements that
help the human infrastructure,
the workforce, and you've hit on
that as well, and continuing to
stabilize with business
retention and business
recruitment. So we saw that
several, there was a substantial
drop off 30% And the number of
new small businesses that opened
so. So not only did a lot of
small businesses closed, the
number annually, year over year
that opened drops substantially.
So encouraging, not just saving
what's there, but also
encouraging new businesses to
start new entrepreneurs, as so
many people have seen career
changes. And I think that this
has certainly been a time of
disruption and reflection. And
it's been fun to visit with
people who have said, life's too
short to not live out my dream.
And their dream is to own that
coffee shop, or own the bakery
or whatever it might be. And so
the you know, guiding new
potential entrepreneurs through
opening is another layer that we
are hearing about and seeing,
are you hearing that or have
any,
Unknown: you guys might be
experiencing this too, we're
starting to get a lot of
feedback on sort of legacy
businesses and Mom, Mom and Pop
are retiring. And they got a
little manufacturer or they got
a little restaurant, or they got
three restaurants, they want to
go down to Florida and enjoy the
fun life. And maybe there's a
young person in their 20s or
30s, that would love to buy that
business. We don't lend to that
person right now. We have no I
mean, if I'm in a community, I
go around and find out who's
ready to transition. And if you
are when you decide to
transition, come to us come to
the city or come to the
development agency. And we're
going to figure out how to do a
transitional loan to this young
person that wants to buy or does
not have to be young person, you
get my point. But like, keep
that business local, keep it
open and let the next generation
come through. We do predict that
that's going to be the biggest
transition over the next 10
years is Baby Boomers selling
businesses, younger baby boomers
selling their businesses. And we
want to make sure that young
people have a chance to buy
those. But we don't have a lot
of programs in place right now
that let that happen. So in
communities with transitions, I
think that's important. I just
want to address one question.
Someone asked me about your
money or Bangladeshi people. I
don't have any experience with
that. But I do have an
experience that might relate. So
I didn't know this until about
two years ago, but people of the
Muslim faith are not allowed to
pay interest on loans. This is
something that I didn't know.
And it baffled me. So I looked
into it, and found that if
you're a Muslim, you're not
allowed under Muslim law to pay
interest. You can borrow money,
but you can't pay interest. So
you tell me, if you're a
community that has a huge Muslim
population, how the hell are you
lending to those businesses?
You're not. And so what we saw
was Minneapolis created a really
cool program. It's an
alternative lending program for
people of the Muslim faith that
instead of paying interest, they
pay a success fee at the end of
the loan period, which would
have been equivalent to what the
interest payment was. Think
about how stupid simple that is.
Like if you got these
populations of individuals with
different value systems,
different belief systems,
different structures for
borrowing, go out and find out
what they are, what that barrier
is, and then create a solution
for them. I just think that's
the way you got to think now.
You can't just create something
and expect everybody to work on
it. I think you got to be really
sort of narrow minded and
targeted with your programs. I
just wanted to mention that
because Mara asked that
question.
Lacy Beasley: That's a great.
That's, that's a great example,
a real life case study. Thank
you so much for sharing that.
There's so many questions coming
up around this employment idea,
the struggle of workforce, any
additional thoughts or comments
on that, that you'd like to
elaborate on and we, we have
about four or five more minutes
here, but you gave some some
good ideas, and it just sparked
a flood of additional questions
around? What kind of programs
can help help these businesses
find employees to hire or help
develop workforce?
Unknown: Yeah, I mean, I'm not a
workforce specialist. I think I
probably spoke too much. But I
do think the thing you'd want to
add, you know, I would end on
that comment is that this is the
probably the greatest
opportunity. In my our lifetime,
my lifetime, for sure. I mean,
the New Deal was the last time
we even touch this kind of
resource that's available to
communities. So you know, you
got that Eminem song, that's
like, you only got one shot like
this is it, you got one shot
here, folks, you've got the
largest outlay of resources in
the history of the government.
So let's make it happen. You get
a very aggressive, get off the
sideline, engage professionals,
look at the whole lifecycle of
what's going on in your
community. And I think this is
the coolest part. Now. We're not
chasing BMW, or Volvo, or
Toyota, or these big, huge 4000
person manufacturers, we're
chasing the small guys now. But
save the five employee company,
let's save our work from home
people that save our little
coffee shops in our tradesmen.
And this is the best thing
that's ever happened to
development finance, because
we're actually investing in our
economy, that's the most
important small businesses make
up 99% of our of our of our, I'm
sorry, there are 90% of our net
new businesses every year, they
employ, you know, 31 million
micro enterprises like these
things are immensely important.
And now we're effect actually
focusing on which I think is, is
going to be awesome for our
country.
Lacy Beasley: Gosh, thank you
for sharing that. That's so
encouraging. And it really, you
make great points. So let's,
let's get active, get on it,
take it take advantage of our
one shot that we have right now.
There, there's a lot going on.
And it's really exciting in it,
it can shape our cities
differently. And and the other
point that you made that I think
that really lights me up. And I
know it does a lot of community
leaders we work with because
obviously, I'm so grateful to
our participants for our
webinars because they are the
leaders in their communities
that know that information is
power, and they're engaging in
this information, so that they
can bring that back home and
really make connections locally
to keep their community strong.
And so you're you're almost
preaching to the choir right
here about let's get active, get
on it work hard, we have one
chance here to really maximize
this once in a lifetime
opportunity that will change our
communities far into the future
and change our business
dynamics. So, Toby, your
resources are phenomenal on your
website, your newsletters, what
additional information,
definitely plugged CDFA right
now tell us all about you, and
how people can use you as a
resource here gonna lean forward
and your webinar series, all
those things that we can do to
empower them.
Unknown: No, I would just say
we're a mission based nonprofit
profit organization within about
39 years. All we want to do is
help communities remove whatever
barriers there are to capital,
let them understand how capital
works. And then ultimately draw
them towards solutions that
drive capital projects. We're
agnostic to what your issues
are, whether your issues there,
your community, but we're gonna
help you as best we can just go
to cdfa.net. And check us out. I
always say we're a nonprofit,
because our mission is more
important than anything. I've
been here 17 years, we'll be
here a long time after me. But
our people are here to help. We
want it we answer the phone, we
talk to you. We're like a
community. And so please reach
out. You know, it might not be
me that helps you, but it will
be one of my other great 15
People that helps you, but we
just we encourage you all to use
our resources. And just
hopefully we've created
friendship, and we've been able
to be engaged for a long time.
And really honestly, I've known
Cindy I think Cindy we've known
each other 20 I think it's 20
years this year. So it's awesome
to be able to be invited to this
and Jen and Lacey. Thank you so
much for having me. Appreciate
it.
Lacy Beasley: Absolutely. Thank
you Toby shared a great deal of
insight was so beneficial. Any
closing comments to understand
See,
Unknown: I think we I know that
there are probably some
unanswered questions. And so I
will say that, um, we'll take a
look at those and, you know, see
if we can get some responses out
to you on what those are. And,
you know, if you have additional
questions that you didn't get a
chance to ask, go ahead and
email us those questions. And if
we don't know the answers, we'll
try to find it for you.
Lacy Beasley: Absolutely.
Absolutely. Well, sounds like
our next webinar needs to be
about workforce development.
Thank you, Toby. This has just
been awesome. Thank you, Cindy,
and Jen and teach you and our
audience, so thank you. You will
receive the email with the
recording of this and a resource
guide as well. So thank you so
much. I'll keep working hard and
let's keep building each other
up.
Jenn Gregory: Thank you. Bye