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The GGJ Podcast brings the spirit of Global Game Jam to your headphones, with people from around the world sharing how they found their way into game development. Each week, Susan Gold talks with developers, studio founders, and festival organizers about the twists, risks, and side doors that shaped their paths and communities. You will hear honest stories about creativity, collaboration, failure, and the messy, beautiful reality of making games.
Changing Where Games Come From | Ben Kvalo
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Intro
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[00:00:00] Susan Gold: This is the GGJ Podcast, a show about the games industry, the people who make them, and the communities that grow up around them. I'm Susan Gold, a game education Trailblazer and one of the founders of the Global Game Jam.
[00:00:19] Each week we sit down with a new guest, highlighting their own path and journey.
[00:00:24] This is a space for honest conversation from makers about creativity, [00:00:30] collaboration, failure and the messy, the beautiful reality of making games. So whether you're a young dev or seasoned, an educator, a student, or someone who just loves games and the people behind them, welcome to the GGJ Podcast.
[00:00:43] Take a breath, settle in, and let's hear directly from the makers themselves.
Partners & Sponsors
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[00:00:48] Shirley McPhaul: This podcast is made possible in partnership with the Global Game Jam, the world's largest game creation event, bringing together creators from around the globe. A big thank you as well to the Global Game Jam's. Headline sponsors, [00:01:00] Epic Games, Games for Change, and Xsolla for helping make this creative community a reality.
[00:01:06] To learn more and to get involved in upcoming jams, visit global game jam.org.
[00:01:12]
[00:01:19]
Introducing Ben Kvalo
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[00:01:19] Susan Gold: Today's guest is Ben Kvalo, a mid-Westerner who has helped build and scale games and entertainment teams at 2K, Blizzard, and Netflix. Ben [00:01:30] started his career running a tiny radio station in Wisconsin, and over time he has become the person studios called when they needed to organize chaos, fix problems, and launch new initiatives.
[00:01:44] Now he's the founder and CEO of Midwest Games, a new kind of publisher focused on changing where games come from and how developers are supported.
[00:01:54] In this conversation, we talk about growing up in Portage, discovering the business side of [00:02:00] games. How mentors and cultures at places like 2K and Netflix shaped him, and why he believes that the Midwest can be one of the best places in the world to make games. We also get into what sustainable publishing could look like and what it really takes to build a regional ecosystem instead of just a single studio.
[00:02:22] Ben, welcome to the show.
[00:02:24] Ben Kvalo: Oh, uh, thanks for having me. Excited to be here. Always fun, to, always fun to connect with, other Midwest folks [00:02:30] that are in this industry doing amazing things. it's funny how many there are and the many you like, put yourself out there like that. it's fun to see, people's reactions.
[00:02:39] Susan Gold: Well, you put yourself out there quite a bit. So tell me how would your best friend or your partner describe you?
[00:02:47] Ben Kvalo: I think the word that I most often get is passionate. I get very passionate about the things that I do and work on and if, [00:03:00] if I not passionate about it, I really struggle to do something. so I think passionate is, one of them. And then, I'm very risk tolerant to things, and not afraid to, it's not that I'm not afraid to do things, it's just I'm willing to be like. Ok, let's see what happens and put myself out there, jump into something I don't know at all, learn a lot, understand that I, I definitely am wrong, about certain things.
[00:03:27] but that I'm still willing to continue to put myself out there. [00:03:30]
[00:03:30] Susan Gold: Yeah. The one thing that I read most about you is that you're a real hands-on person.
[00:03:35] Ben Kvalo: Mm-hmm.
[00:03:36] Susan Gold: And I think that is really a, testament, you know, reading up about you in college, reading about how you got into radio and all that other stuff. So today's conversation really is gonna focus on your mission to build community and change where games come from, but also to create opportunities for developers through [00:04:00] new publishing models, through Midwest games and seed ideas elsewhere. so. Tell me those early years, what was your inspiration?
[00:04:11] Did you play games as a kid and think, ah, this is what I wanna do? Or did you grow up thinking, I'm going to be an engineer, or I'm gonna be a business guy? what was life like in Portage?
[00:04:24] Ben Kvalo: Oh, Portage is a small town. Um, there is not [00:04:30] much going on. but what there was growing up was games. I, I played everything I possibly could. uh, everything from, sports games, shooters, strategy, life simulation, everything, I could get my hands on. I try, I, I wanted to play. But we also had a theater, that just was for me, kind of an escape to the larger world. Portage is,right in the middle [00:05:00] of nothing, yet we were connected to large entertainment things happening. Like Wisconsin Dells was 20 minutes from Portage. And if you're not familiar with Wisconsin Dells, for anyone listening, Wisconsin Dells is the water park capital of the world, which is really weird, Wisconsin, and best known for how cold it is. at times it has the most water parks in the world. So it was a really interesting place. And, I was fortunate to really be inspired by some of the sports teams. [00:05:30] Some of my family connections in the past. My great-grandfather's a Hall of fame football, basketball and track star at UW Madison,
[00:05:38] So my original career goal was to go into sports management. So essentially entertainment in a way. Right? But, that was the thing I was really going after. I didn't see video games as a route because there was so little going on, especially in Wisconsin. it was just Raven, and Guild Software and a couple others, but I wasn't really even [00:06:00] aware of those studios at the time.
The Journey into Games
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[00:06:03] Susan Gold: So how did you find yourself thinking games is a possibility? What led you there after having this, entertainment slash
[00:06:12] Ben Kvalo: mm-hmm.
[00:06:12] Susan Gold: Business background?
[00:06:14] Ben Kvalo: Yeah, I was given a unique opportunity at the university because we were one of only two undergraduate universities that had a mergers and acquisitions capstone course. So, me as the management, [00:06:30] emphasis because of my business administration major, combined with a finance, marketing, HR, and we got to choose a company and then acquire another company or go through the whole process, the due diligence, all that kinda stuff.
[00:06:42] Susan Gold: Can you tell us who you wanted to acquire?
[00:06:44] Ben Kvalo: Yeah.
[00:06:44] So, uh, we chose Activision and we acquired Madcatz as like a peripheral acquisition opportunity to be able to like, okay, take Call of Duty and make madcat controllers that were really focused on the IP, building the [00:07:00] IP out, things like that.
[00:07:02] we did a lot of due diligence on the types of companies that we could acquire or had to become Activision. And so it was a really great intro into, what is this whole publishing scope? What is this other side of the business that, well, first of all, people don't think of games as a business and it is a giant. Uh, and what is this other side? Yeah.
The Business vs the Hobby of Making Games
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[00:07:23] Susan Gold: that is one of the things that I find very difficult when I was an educator was you know, [00:07:30] people are like, well, I wanna explore my idea and be like, yeah, but if you wanna make a living at this, how are we gonna monetize on it?
[00:07:38] Ben Kvalo: Yeah.
[00:07:39] Susan Gold: Andit's a hard thing even as any kind of artist you really wanna explore your vision. But then I remember the first time I was working at a studio and asked, what's the ROI? And I'm like, what?
[00:07:51] Ben Kvalo: Yeah. Yeah. I talk to people about this all the time and even the most creative, innovative game at the end of the day is a [00:08:00] company and is a business, and we need to convince game developers to start thinking of themselves as entrepreneurs, not just game developers, because if they don't consider themselves, that they don't realize they actually can get help for the things that they're doing.
[00:08:17] Susan Gold: Now, is that just here in the United States or do you think that's a global perspective?
[00:08:22] Ben Kvalo: I, I think people look at games as a hobby and even more so because, the younger generations are now [00:08:30] growing up with the tools to be able to make games at very young ages and they just do it for fun. And so when it's looked at as a hobby and any hobbyist industry deals with it; is they don't look at it enough from the business lens because so much of it is just a passion piece of things. So I think it is a global challenge for the games industry. and I also think that the folks that are on the business end then take advantage of that. And that devalues some of what the developers are [00:09:00] doing and doesn't give them the leverage to be able to say, Hey, no, my skillset's incredibly valuable, making the industry hundreds of billions of dollars. we need to figure out how to do this better more professionally. And other entertainment industries have figured out. Films has largely organized, some could argue in negative ways to, or positive ways, but ultimately it, there's a more of a formula to it than there is in games right now.
Mentors & Influence
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[00:09:29] Susan Gold: So [00:09:30] were there any mentors or people that helped influence this, ideology and this philosophy that you would eventually
[00:09:39] really say these are the things that I'm bringing with me to Midwest games?
[00:09:45] Ben Kvalo: Oh, yeah.
[00:09:46] what I know about myself is I am a chameleon and I, I ultimately attach onto the things that resonate with me and try to really have that [00:10:00] reflect who I am as a leader or as an entrepreneur. And so much of it is taking the things from so many people throughout my career that I've been so fortunate to be around and taking the things that I'm like, oh, that's a really, really great thing and I make it part of who I am. And so even from the very beginning of my career in games, I was so fortunate to land where I was. and something I sell to a lot of people as well is go find a mid or small size company go in [00:10:30] where you can make a lot of impact and get a lot of opportunity, 'cause I joined 2K in the early dayswhen I was the only operations person outside of my boss and the executive group. And I got to do a lot. And my manager, was a woman named Kate Kellogg and Kate just was such an incredible mentor to me early in my career. Pushed me so hard on certain things, was always just an incredible leader and, it has gone on in her own [00:11:00] career now she's a COO at EA so I was so fortunate to have such an incredible leader early in my career. And so that was a big piece.
[00:11:09] I think Netflix largely influenced me around culture. I joined as the first hire in the marketing operations team for film, so I helped to build and scale out the films organization over there. It was the first time outside of the game space or radio space, which is where I started my career. And the culture [00:11:30] that was taught there was so different than games. so you could do anything, but you had a responsibility with anything you did and you were accountable for it. So any employee could sign up to a $10 million contract,every single detail of every single thing was available to every single employee. so, the transparency level, the trust, how people went about their business and that there was a demand that you were the best at all [00:12:00] times. And their comparison was,an Olympic athlete, if you wanna make the Olympics, it's not just good enough to make the team, you have to maintain that level, so the expectation was really high. And what was great about it was you had no doubt that everybody around you had good intent and was doing their absolute best
[00:12:21] So as much as it was demanding and sometimes brutal with how honest and open, like when someone was let go, you knew [00:12:30] why. They listed out the reasons why that person was let go. And that was just a very different experience that very much influenced how I run my company and how I think about company culture.
Leadership, and the importance of being "seen"
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[00:12:42] Susan Gold: I love that. Now,
[00:12:45] you have a quality about you that says leader, but that was acquired through experience, through struggles, through failures.
[00:12:54] So give us this little perspective on. Bright [00:13:00] ideas outta school to the reality of life.
[00:13:03] Ben Kvalo: Yeah. Yeah. It's funny you say that about the leader piece because, when I'd built the radio station in college and done my first entrepreneurial type activity, I also, at that same point, ruffled some feathers because the university wasn't very supportive of us building that because there had been some controversy around the previous time that radio station had been around in the eighties, and also I was very [00:13:30] passionate and outspoken about certain things and there's certain leadership within the university that didn't appreciate that. so when, the senior leadership awards came up, I wasn't considered, So I learned a really important early lesson around politics within any space that you're in. because there is major, politics that happen at all times. and even to the point that I confronted that person that was in charge of this and it was very [00:14:00] clear he had an agenda and he is like, well, some people aren't meant to be leaders. And I was like, okay. so, you know, I had a chip on my shoulder, from the beginning and then coming outta college, I was unemployed for three months, couldn't find a job, it was a bad time to come out. Finally got one in radio. I was paid nothing like $12,000 a year, which is under minimum wage. and I was selling air, it was horrible. and I, I very much in that moment, decided [00:14:30] what I want to do, who I wanted to be, and then I,I started my networking journey at that point, because I was like, if I don't network with the right people, I'm never going to get the opportunities that I think are potentially available to me. And so I went hard with LinkedIn, ended up connecting with a recruiter at 2K. they were really struggling to fill this operations coordinator position and, so they started to look outside the box and so got her to talk to [00:15:00] me and I was able to. in her mind to translate my skills that I was doing there and problem solving and fixing, creating solutions for things into what I could do in the game space, even though it wasn't something that I had done. And the funny thing was, is like just came full circle at Gamescom because the hiring manager Kate, she did one of the keynotes at, at DEVCOM, right before Gamescom, and [00:15:30] she did her top five lessons from her career. And lesson three was the time I hired a guy from Wisconsin, and so I actually heard the other end of the story, where apparentlyshe couldn't find the right person,and the recruiter was like, I found this guy in Wisconsin.
[00:15:48] And, I think he's the right fit, but he has no games experience.and she was like, okay. Andapparently, like within five minutes of talking to me, she was like, this is the right person, but she had no relocation budget. She had to [00:16:00] go fight for that. And then apparently my entire beginning of my career at 2K, I was under the microscope 'cause they were just waiting for me to screw up because she took a large chance and large bet to basically put her, her own career behind believing that I was the right person for this role. And it ended up, working out. 'cause I just kept solving problem after problem. And then I became the special projects guy for the COO and president of the organization and just continued [00:16:30] to solve any problem they threw at me.
[00:16:33] Susan Gold: Well that also takes skill.
Jumping at the Opportunity to Build
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[00:16:36] Susan Gold: And so did you find yourself always looking for new ways to grow your skills? And how did you do that?
[00:16:43] Ben Kvalo: I get bored easily, so I, I have to always be doing something new, something different. learning something new. I get very curious about things And Some of it was, I was always the one that was asking for more. I [00:17:00] just never stopped asking for more. And so it led to, me continuing to get projects, but then, they were like, okay, we know you've never worked on the technology end of things with game developers, but we need to centralize our entire middleware and licensing, and then provide centralized core technology services out to all of our studios, and they're like, you know how to organize stuff, go figure it out. yeah. And they're, and so they team me with the VP of technology and they said, Hey, go figure out how to [00:17:30] centralize all of this. And I did. and they're like, okay, now that you did that, we're gonna backfill that role. and then they're like, Hey, our global marketing organization is having a lot of issues. You know, we were born in North American company, we now have all these offices internationally, but it's not flowing right. We're having a lot of challenges. And so then there they brought me on to be this international, project manager. and so then I spent a lot of time living in London, Paris, Madrid, [00:18:00] Munich, Amsterdam, Singapore, learning nuances, challenges of global marketing and global publishing, and then thinking about how we do this the right way and how we do it in the sense of what 2K was and how it needed to broaden its scope and rethink things. So I brought back my suggestions around how we would reorganize the structure, how things should flow, where the challenge points are. and I just became that. Person that they would just send [00:18:30] into something. And so suddenly I went from the technology end of the company to the marketing end of the company. and it just has always been like jumping at new opportunities.
[00:18:38] And even when I was doing that, we had this big game license that we wanted to get, and so they suddenly threw me on and I was leading the pitch for one of a mega game license that we were trying to get at 2K. And then I was helping to build a studio Hanger 13 that would eventually make Mafia 3 and other things. And then ultimately Blizzard had hunted me and we [00:19:00] were like, Hey. You know, cross-functionally organized folks. we have this issue with our eSports. We have six disparate eSports that are all disconnected. We wanna bring 'em together on BlizzCon. could you come in and help organize this? And so that's where I just made another jump. And then you can see I then jumped into film and jumped into all these other things.
[00:19:20] Susan Gold: and there, you went to Netflix after that.
[00:19:22] Ben Kvalo: Yep.
[00:19:23] Susan Gold: And then inventing a games division for them and then leaving that.
[00:19:29] Ben Kvalo: Yeah.
[00:19:29] Susan Gold: [00:19:30] So let's do a little bit about why you decide to pivot, why you make those changes. Is it due to lack of challenge or new challenge or just the idea of being the person to invent the wheel there?
[00:19:49] Ben Kvalo: what I've realized is whether I want to be or not, at times I'm a builder and I like that next challenge and opportunity, and [00:20:00] whenever someone goes,we're trying to do this, my mind suddenly goes, well, how do we do it? and I wanna dive in, I wanna help, and so I've always been in a position of well, I'm like a helper to make stuff happen and build things. whether I'm taking lead on a certain segment of it or a large piece of it, or a small piece of it. I like to build things.
[00:20:21] And so, you know, I've been fortunate that, enough people saw me as that, that they've wanted to throw me into, [00:20:30] the chaos of what building is a lot of ambiguity, which I'm very comfortable with. A lot of what feels like risk and Vast uncertainty on what's gonna happen, and so when games started to be a thing, a guy named Chris Lee really led the charge of getting that approved on the Netflix end of things. and the minute that moved forward, they were looking for somebody to help organize the [00:21:00] chaos and figure out how we move this forward and how we launch the product, and so that's when I joined to help lead the launch of the product. And then what else do we need around it? Like the launch operations teams, the publishing teams, all these pieces that I had had experience in my past Suddenly I could take that and go, okay, well when, what about when we build it from scratch?
[00:21:22] And the minute I started doing that, I'm like, wait a second. I keep building for these other folks, I might as well really go in [00:21:30] and be like, let's go build something truly from scratch with no insurance policy on the backend. and see what can happen. And it fit really well with the fact that I just saw a lot of things, a lot of dynamics happening in the games industry that I was like, we're about to hit a wall and it's gonna be bad, and sure enough, I left Netflix in May of 2023, and then later that year the layoff started happening. I definitely didn't predict it would be like this, but I saw the [00:22:00] how unsustainable we were building. And that's why I was like, let's change where we do things, and then as I went along, I was like, oh, and we can change how we're doing things within the publishing space because I think we're not doing it in the ways that we could be, to most effectively support developers.
Homecoming
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[00:22:18] Susan Gold: So did you move to Green Bay before you got the house or was that the impetus to come back home?
[00:22:29] Ben Kvalo: So [00:22:30] I had started doing research in late 2022, and I spent a tremendous amount of time researching what was happening in games and what were people not seeing and what could, my unique perspective or lens help with and one of my lenses that I have is Midwest. I saw the things happening in the Midwest that others might not have, especially through a publishing lens. and so I was like, wait a second. There's this whole opportunity, a [00:23:00] development ecosystem that exists, strong pipelines, lots of talent, low cost, and I, so I saw that.
[00:23:07] But then what happened really was I was back at Green Bay for a Packers game. my university who, I'm an alumni board from, which is ironic considering, I was told by one of the leaders at one point I would never be a leader, and then I'm on the alumni board, And they connected me with a new venture firm that had been created by [00:23:30] Microsoft and the Green Bay Packers coming together, which is really weird and unique, that sports team and a mega tech company come together, create a venture firm that's outside of both of those, and based in Green Bay. And so I met with them and had been getting to know them, pretty well and had been mentoring some of their startups around company culture, off of my Netflix experience. And I was like, Hey, Craig, Who's the head partner there? I was like, [00:24:00] Hey, do you have 30 minutes? I have this idea that's in my head and I'm curious your thoughts. so that became a two hour meeting. We whiteboarded the whole thing out and off of that, he was like, yeah, that would be something we might invest in, come back with a pitch.
[00:24:15] And so then that like spark moment, started to light a fire. and I came back with a pitch and they were like, we love it. and at that point I was like, oh shit, I'm gonna be leaving Netflix. this is a real thing now. I just kept moving forward and I, I suddenly put [00:24:30] myself in a space where I'm like, I guess I gotta do this, I felt the pressure to do it. And I, and luckily I, my wife is very supportive, or I should say my fiance at the time.Uh, so I was planning a wedding, while then deciding to leave my Netflix job to go build a startup, and in the midst of all that moving back to Wisconsin at least part-time, I sold my LA house. it just a lot hit all at once. And I was like, I gotta do it. I, I will regret not trying.
[00:24:59] And [00:25:00] so the deal I made with myself was: okay, this could very well fail, blow up in my face, whatever, but I'm going to learn a lot. And so if the end of the day I get nothing else out of this. But I learn a lot about, venture, about raising money, about all these things that I had no education around at the time, and I did everything wrong in a way. I was a solo founder, that
[00:25:26] Yeah.
[00:25:26] Was raising for the first time, in a place [00:25:30] that doesn't have a lot of venture dollars, in a field that those investment dollars don't often go into. And, so I challenged a lot of norms all at once and somehow come out the other side at least so far, with a lot of learnings and also angles of okay, as I threw myself into it, I realize, there's other ways you can do it besides what the Silicon Valley traditional way of doing things is, and if you [00:26:00] embrace that. you have a chance
[00:26:02] Susan Gold: and you have a community.
[00:26:05] Ben Kvalo: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:05] Susan Gold: And that is something that, you had to build.
Community
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[00:26:09] Susan Gold: So, how did you build that community?
[00:26:13] Ben Kvalo: yeah.
[00:26:13] Susan Gold: Where did you see, opportunity? How did you recruit?
[00:26:18] Ben Kvalo: So I think the biggest thing to first say is to not give myself too much credit, because the reality is it was already there and growing organically. I think there's a [00:26:30] cultural thing that I've been really challenging folks around and probably living in LA helped me get over it a little bit more. is, there's a humble nature that people don't want to talk about what they do or how successful they are.
[00:26:44] I, I tell my wife all the time, who's from L.A., I go, probably the richest person you see in Wisconsin will never look like a rich person. it'll, they'll be so understated. They will drive an old truck or something like that, but yet they will [00:27:00] be worth hundreds of millions to billions of dollars. So when I came out from Netflix, I simply said, I'm leaving Netflix. Like I posted it on LinkedIn and that post went incredibly viral for LinkedIn. Uh, it hit 400,000 people. I got 3000 messages that weekend, and it was people that, that resonated with what I was saying, which was, I wanted to embrace the [00:27:30] Midwest and showcase what. Was from the Midwest, what was happening, all the opportunities and, and better highlight because, as a publisher, what we're really good at is highlighting other success. And if we could be better at highlighting the things coming from the state of Wisconsin, the region of the Midwest, I think we could bring together a community that was more supportive, more connected.
[00:27:57] Because what I saw was a lot of these people [00:28:00] had siloed and been disconnected from one another, which is unfortunate. and then I saw it even firsthand, there was two mega studio heads that both are in Madison that had never met in person, and they had been in the same city for 15 years or something. and I'm like, how have you not met? how have you not, connected how do we build this industry together? And sometimes that happens as I look at ecosystem building around the world, when you're the lone wolf, you have to be a little [00:28:30] bit protective of the things around you until the ecosystem grows a little bit when you have a little bit of security because there's a lot of other things going on in the area as well. And so I think we're in that transition moment where we've moved from having lone wolves to actually being able to have a community. And it just timed out well with me coming back and really believing in that kind of core message. and ultimately it's really the community that was like, yes, finally [00:29:00] someone said it, and I just am fortunate that because there's Netflix attached to my name, Netflix gets outsized clicks in comparison to anything else. And I just have to utilize the fact that that exists, you know, fair or not.
[00:29:16] Susan Gold: So what systemic obstacles does the Midwest and other regional developers face, and how do you think your plans are going to address them? And [00:29:30] can you maybe even talk, not just in relation to our region, but how would someone who doesn't have an ecosystem
[00:29:39] Ben Kvalo: mm-hmm.
[00:29:40] Susan Gold: Like we do how do they recreate it or learn from mistakes and opportunities you might be able to?
[00:29:47] Ben Kvalo: Yeah.
[00:29:48] I think that one of the biggest first things is you have to put yourself out there and by doing so, you attract people of like mind that want to also do those things. So by putting myself out there, I [00:30:00] attracted people that also had the same ambitions. and I've been able to then collaborate with those people a lot because we're doing things in different ways. And really I, what I see as like ecosystem is connecting the dots and getting as many of the pieces as you can.
[00:30:17] And when I talk about pieces, I mean okay, we have a number of developers that's a key piece to things. Okay. We have a regional event. That's great for networking, that's great for, connecting those [00:30:30] pieces together. Okay. I built a publisher having the support mechanisms in place that can better educate and support, folks both in the region and obviously we support people around the world, but just by us being in region, we can better educate other folks around it. having investment in the region. how do you get those investors to want to invest in games? They need to be educated. They need to understand the risk profile. They need to be comfortable with that. so you need to be able [00:31:00] to engage them. how do you engage the kind of the entrepreneur ecosystem, the government ecosystem so that there's incentives or the incentives that exist today, making sure that they're available to game developers in the same kinds of ways.
[00:31:14] So my advice to folks that are trying to think about the ecosystem is start working on each of those pieces and know what is available, what isn't, where your gaps. Because if you understand what your weaknesses and gaps are. You can start to address those things [00:31:30] and start to fill those. And you know, we're getting to a place where the Midwest has a lot of those things. I think we're still weak in the investment space. We don't get enough investment or reinvestment from success stories within the region back into games enough. and that's a real, challenge. Yet we have some really big strengths where, we have the largest game industry focused event [00:32:00] outside of California in the U.S. and so we have a lot of people that wanna come together and we attract them from Chicago to Madison rather than the other way around, which is unique. And so I think those are the big pieces.
[00:32:14] And then you have to tell a story. I think everybody wants to resonate with a story. And the Midwest story is a really interesting one because. Midwest was a hub. Midway was based in Chicago. Bungee was born in [00:32:30] Chicago. uh, you think of NetherRealm, you think of Jackbox games, you think of so many success stories, Iron Galaxy, they each took over and owned a really important space within the games area. Now some of them moved, Dungeons Dragons was bought by a company in Seattle. Bungee moved to Seattle and by us being able to tell a story that we have a legacy and history with games and we are making a [00:33:00] comeback, and that we have an opportunity ahead of us to present and be the most affordable place to make games and make games with incredible talent in the entire United States is a really awesome story to tell, and I think you have to have that. And if you look at any region around the world. Figure out what your angle and story is, because that helps with the storytelling. And it has to be true. but also it has to be, aspirational in we know where we [00:33:30] want to go and yeah, we're not there yet, but we're on our way.
[00:33:34] Susan Gold: Exactly. So, um, yeah, I understand. Like you can't have vaporware, there has to be something tangible that you can point to, or one of which is the education system. Yes. The different support pillars that we happen to have within the region.
Midwest Games; a Different Approach to Publishing
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[00:33:54] Susan Gold: So what is fundamentally different about Midwest Games' approach to [00:34:00] publishing compared to traditional models?
[00:34:04] Ben Kvalo: So, we are flipping the whole system on its head. if we think of traditional publishing on one end of the spectrum of, okay, it's really like an investment mechanism. these publishers are more like, VCs with a support mechanism in place where they do a lot of bets and they think about [00:34:30] one in, I don't know, one in 20, one in 30 is gonna really work commercially and essentially pay for the rest of them, which is more the VC type of model. so they take rev share at the highest percentage rate they possibly can. They're pretty predatory about it. They either take IP rights or string IP rights up into longer term, agreements so that they maintain control over IP. because it also creates a lot of risk, which is why they have to do it. I completely get [00:35:00] why they do it. I, as much as I call out their predatory nature, they have to be like the model demands it. I don't blame them and I don't think they're bad people for doing it. It's the nature of what that model is, and I think it still works really, really well, which is why most of them are doing it, but it doesn't work for everybody. So I go, okay, well how could we do the exact opposite of that?
[00:35:21] can we create a model? Because of where we're located, we operate at less than 30% of the industry average. So we can do [00:35:30] things in different ways and what we can do is provide something, this revolutionary new thing. Imagine paying for a good or service, like imagine us being a plumber and they can bring us in and we will take care of the problem, and then when we're done with it, we're done with it. You don't owe us anything more. you pay for the service. And so that's where I look at this. It's, there's a simplicity to [00:36:00] it. There's something Midwest about it. A little bit of roll up our sleeves, do the dirty work. We white label everything we do. we're not at the end of the day putting our name on the sink and saying, Hey, we're the plumber that did this.
[00:36:12] Uh, So, how could we do that? But we don't take any rev share. We don't take any IP rights. You can cancel within 30 days. So flexible cancellation so that you can make the decisions you need as a developer or publisher, other publishers hire us as [00:36:30] well. To get the services and support in the this publishing space to best set yourself up for success. And my philosophy is, if we're really good at that, you're gonna want to keep coming back. You want to continue to expand services, you're gonna get what you need, when you need it. and that we create something very flexible for the industry that allows them to get these really critical services without giving up the farm and having to be dependent upon some larger [00:37:00] company. I look at it as like the drip of publishing. If you're in that publishing pipeline, you're always on the IV drip, you have to have it to survive because you can never get out of it because the minute you even have a success, they're still connected to that IP. And it's so hard to make a second successful IP. There's so few companies that have ever made a second successful IP. And so you become dependent upon it, so how could we change that?
[00:37:26] So the fundamental idea is that you can pay us up [00:37:30] front via monthly retainer and that's it. And if you need to cancel, you need to cancel and that's fine. and what it opens up is this gate that's so narrow within the publishing space and allows it to start to open up wider 'cause it still only fits so many people that can afford to do that upfront. But it also opens up the whole spectrum between these things of what about a group that has 300,000 wishlists? They don't wanna go to traditional publisher and suddenly give up half [00:38:00] their rev share when they've already gotten a lot of traction. So maybe what we can do is we do a recoup mechanic of like our normal fees, but because they have traction, we can have trust that they're probably gonna sell a certain amount of units. So we can say, Hey, you can pay us on the backend with some interest. So that opens up yet another way for someone to get the publishing services they need. Without, giving up their long-term rights.
[00:38:26] Susan Gold: Understood. And you say that Midwest Games [00:38:30] is open to independent developers as well, so people that are looking for opportunity and you can e essentially pay for the service or pay as needed for the things that you need?
[00:38:45] Ben Kvalo: Yep.
[00:38:46] Susan Gold: But, but not have to commit in that long term. So I, I love that.
[00:38:51] I hope that, people realize that the MDEV, the regional. conference that you just held, [00:39:00] that you have a lot of that material available and people can look online for that.
[00:39:06] Ben Kvalo: Mm-hmm.
[00:39:06] Susan Gold: So that, the conversations that were had and those types of things
[00:39:09] Ben Kvalo: mm-hmm.
[00:39:10] Susan Gold: People can get a rough idea of, what you're trying to do on a local basis, The whole concept to me of trying to enrich the region is something that I think, other people will look at that and go,
[00:39:27] Ben Kvalo: mm-hmm.
[00:39:27] Susan Gold: I can do that too.
[00:39:28] Ben Kvalo: Mm-hmm.
[00:39:29] Susan Gold: Where I live. [00:39:30] So I hope that's the type of thing that You're also feeling proud of, because I'm really proud to be associated with you.
[00:39:38] Ben Kvalo: Yeah.
What's next for Ben Kvalo?
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[00:39:38] Susan Gold: Um, so as we start to wind this down, I'd like to know a little bit about what's next for you. And, you could talk about Midwest games, but what are you thinking about, share with me like what you're hoping and what you hope to reach for.
[00:39:56] You're still young and you have a lot ahead of you, so what's [00:40:00] next?
[00:40:00] Ben Kvalo: Not as young as it used to be, but I, I am, as I, I think we talked about, I'm a builder. There's always gonna be something new. And I look at this as an ecosystem and there's so many pieces to that ecosystem that have to be built and worked through.
[00:40:15] And so much of this, to what you're talking about, it's a community thing. I think that's where we need to inspire more folks to want to engage this community, to want to be part of it. And also, like it's a larger piece of things. It's really every place [00:40:30] that isn't a hub around the world should be working together.
[00:40:33] Should be collaborating, should be sharing knowledge and trying to support one another . And I also think it goes into the, some of the larger problems that I see in the industry today, which is we have a mega platform problem where, platforms are really taking advantage of, the current ecosystem of things and people don't even realize how much so. So how can we come together and create a better system how [00:41:00] we make it more equitable for the work that's being done and allow for more bigger successes from the smaller and mid-size end of things and rebuild the middle class? 'Cause the middle class in games does not exist today. It is so minuscule and really struggling. And I think in almost anything, in any angle of life, if the middle class is struggling, everyone's struggling except for the top 1%. And in games, it's, [00:41:30] that's very much the story. And so for me personally, I think one of my future missions is how do we solve that problem?
[00:41:39] And I definitely don't have the solution, but what I do know is consumers will tell us how to solve it if we listen. We will find a path forward that any smaller or newer or, entrepreneur type can actually try to solve. Whereas these larger companies will not be able to, they can't pivot fast enough.
[00:41:59] and that's where the [00:42:00] opportunity is.
A Word of Advise
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[00:42:01] Susan Gold: What advice would you give to aspiring founders or, developers that are in early stages of their career and looking at the world that's currently around us trying to figure out how they are going to build a mission driven life in games as well?
[00:42:21] Ben Kvalo: Mm-hmm.
[00:42:22] Susan Gold: What would you suggest?
[00:42:23] Ben Kvalo: I, I think one of the big learnings from my own life is The reason I can think the way I do is because [00:42:30] I've been given Perspective, from many different angles, many different ways of life, many different places, many different industries. Uh, My dad's an engineer. Like my dad's a mechanical engineer. My mom's a teacher, principal. and so I've just constantly had different perspectives of things. And so the reality of a lot of people going into games right now, is go get some other perspectives outside of the games industry. Be ready to work outside of it. Doesn't mean that's a permanent thing. It doesn't mean you can't get back into it or can't get into it for the [00:43:00] first time. but even at MDEV, we had all the studio heads on a panel and every single one of us on the panel had not started our career in games. so I think that's the reality of the game space is it's not I'm gonna be in games for 30 years type of space. You're gonna dabble in and out. And I think that you are more valuable in games, the more you can look at other spaces and understand them. And I think especially with where games is at as an industry, we're a really [00:43:30] young industry in the scheme of things. And we can learn a lot from other industries, other models, other ways of working that we can bring into games to make games more sustainable longer term, because that is what other industries have done when they hit the wall, is they had to figure out how they got more sustainable. So we can take those lessons, adapt it to what games is, which will be different. and learn a lot.
[00:43:56] So that's one of my big things that I try to tell people is [00:44:00] look outside of it, it's okay to work in other fields. It's okay to get different perspectives. Some of the best people I've ever worked with, had to like master's or PhD in chemistry or things like that. And they just bring a really unique perspective and games industry needs that because we're an industry that works so cross-functionally across very different disciplines. And the better you can be with other people's perspectives, I think the better you can work in the games industry and solve some of [00:44:30] our big problems.
Where to find Ben & his work
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[00:44:31] Susan Gold: So it truly has been a delight in talking to you. I would like to know how can people best, find you and, hear more about what goes on at MDEV and what you've been doing with, Wisconsin as a whole.
[00:44:46] Ben Kvalo: So there's a couple of things you can follow, especially on LinkedIn, uh, I'm the only one with my name in the entire world, so really easy to find. and then Midwest games, if you want to follow anything that we're doing from Midwest games, and we also have different social [00:45:00] channels and whatnot. we have a couple games that we are doing from a traditional publishing end as well. Tombwater and The Legend of Baboo. Tombwater is by a two person studio in Columbus, Ohio. so awesome that we can support a local, studio and everything that they're doing. Legend of Baboo's from a studio in Turkey, so, helping support a studio in another underserved, but really talented region. and then we have a lot of clients that we serve, some of which we can talk about, some of which we can't, that's the nature of white label. and [00:45:30] then the Wisconsin Games Alliance is the nonprofit organization that I run and essentially volunteer at, that runs MDEV. And so you can follow the Wisconsin Games Alliance or wisconsingamesalliance.com, and find out, more about what we're doing and some of the incentives, some of the structures, some of the things that, we're fighting for, uh, we're trying to get a, a government, Incentive become the first state that has a tax incentive, in the United States specific for video [00:46:00] games. So a lot going on. But yeah, you can find us in, in many different places. But at midwestgames.com is a a good way to, to follow as well.
Thank you!
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[00:46:09] Susan Gold: Well, I am so thankful to have had you as a part of the GGJ podcast I wanna thank you for your time and for everyone at the Global Game Jam. I hope that you take a good look at, what's going on, not only in the Midwest, [00:46:30] but in other regions all over the world, and learn from what we're doing here at Midwest Games. I'm very proud to call myself a Midwest, so, I can't say go pack, but, you know, um, you
[00:46:43] Ben Kvalo: could, you could, I mean,
[00:46:47] Susan Gold: for a guy who has his office across from the football stadium
[00:46:51] Ben Kvalo: Yeah.
[00:46:52] Susan Gold: I mean, really
[00:46:54] Ben Kvalo: it is, it is a unique setup. Uh, but, it's, it, it is [00:47:00] fun the final thing I'll say about the Midwest that I love is even though we have our really bitter rivalries, somehow we all still come together and can grab a beer together and it's friendly.
[00:47:10] And
[00:47:10] Susan Gold: beer and broth
[00:47:11] Ben Kvalo: be Yeah. Beer and broths brings people together. And cheese,
[00:47:15] Susan Gold: uh, yeah. Well you gotta fry that.
[00:47:17] Ben Kvalo: Yep.
[00:47:17] Susan Gold: Um, and that's the conclusion of the Midwest version of the GGJ Pod. Thank you so much tonight and uh, I look forward to [00:47:30] working and talking to you more. Thank you so much. Bye-Bye.
Outro
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[00:47:34] Shirley McPhaul: Want to get involved with the GGJ Podcast, we'd love to hear from you. Please send your ideas, suggestions, and questions to ggjpod@globalgamejam.org and tell us who you think we should be talking to next. What stories or issues matter most to you about the future of games, and help us highlight the people and practices that make a sustainable, creative life and games possible.
[00:47:59] [00:48:00] Thank you for spending time with us on the GGJ Podcast. This conversation sparked something for you. Please share it with someone who might find it useful, and don't forget to follow along so you never miss new stories from makers around the world. You can find more episodes, resources, and information about the Global Game jam@globalgamejam.org.
[00:48:21] Catch us on substack and on YouTube and anywhere else you find podcasts. This has been the GGJ Podcast. Thanks for listening and [00:48:30] keep making games.