Unbound is a weekly podcast, created to help you achieve more as a leader. Join Chris DuBois as he shares his growth journey and interviews others on their path to becoming unbound. Delivered weekly on Thursdays.
0:01
Today we dive into leadership, linguistics and how to ensure your entire team has a voice at the table. Are you a leader trying to get more from your business in life? Need to. So join me as I document the conversations, stories and advice to help you achieve what matters in your life. Welcome to unbound with me, Chris DuBois. Sue Reynolds is an expert, social media strategist and a certified executive coach with a degree in organizational leadership with over 20 years of corporate and nonprofit leadership experience. As an executive coach Sue specializes in mentoring and empowering women to overcome internalized gender biases that keep them from reaching their full potential in the workplace. So welcoming on them.
0:49
Oh, it's a pleasure to be here, Chris. Thanks for having me.
0:51
Yeah, I am excited to just go deep with you on all the things we talked about in the pre interview. And let's start with your origin story.
1:01
Great. So yeah, you made me sound really good, thank you. I'm taking myself. But yes, I have a degree in organizational leadership. I went I was a non traditional student. I had an associate's degree in, in Organizational Leadership Business Administration. Back in the day, after I graduated from high school, I jumped right into the corporate world. And then I went back to school late as a later adult. So my kids were in high school when I went back to school and got my bachelor's and completed the organizational leadership. And at that time, I had I have twins, and they were their boys. And they were both in marching band. So I was juggling, marching band, mom, full time job with Ohio State University, at the extension office, and, of course, load. And so that was my first challenge. But from there, you know, I've been in marketing, I've been in leadership, mostly my whole career, especially as it relates to technology. And so I'm sort of an early adopter with some of these social media apps because it is my job to focus on new accounts and new platforms and see, you know, I want to I want to see if they're going to be good for the businesses that I manage in my full time job. So during COVID, like many of us did, I jumped on Tik Tok to see what this was all about. I actually had an account when it was musically back when people were really using it for music, singing and dancing, and went through that transition where routers learning the TIC tock dances and stuff. And so I don't dance. I sang but I don't dance, I can't dance at all. But what I can do is give leadership advice, give leadership coaching. So I started posting this talking head content, which really no one else very few people were doing on Tik Tok. Just as an experiment, just to see what would happen, and I always tell my team, the audience will teach you what works. And then do more of that. Well, boy, howdy did they, because I, as I started posting this content on how women hold themselves back by some of the language we use, or the diminishing language, and so forth, it blew up. I had a video back in 2020, with more than, well, 300,000 views, I was shocked. So I thought, Okay, I'm onto something here. Women are especially responsive to this content. So I started producing more of it. And pretty soon, my little Carmine media business who, which had been a social media management company, morphed into more of man, leadership, and coaching as well. So providing women with leadership with with executive coaching, providing courses providing speaking engagements being on podcasts. And now, three years later, here we are. And so I like to tell people, I accidentally became tick tock famous, which is a really weird experience. There's a lot that goes with that. But here, here we are, three years later, and I'm glad to be on your show. Yeah.
4:13
Awesome. So I want to start with a story to actually, so it would have been two years ago, inbound HubSpot conference, big one every year. And for this one, the final keynote speaker was President Obama. And so I was excited. Just hear someone like as a leadership, you know, nerd, I don't know another way to put it, right. Being able to see someone who's literally leading the free world and is now able to, like just talk and share advice and past experiences is fascinating. And so, as I was listening to him, though, he told a story about basically having all of these like these board members and different people around the table, and he had to deliberately make sure that The women at the table, like cast spoke out, because a lot of the guys would just would cut them off and overpower. And something that I've always like, I've always made it a point to make sure everyone gets, you know, is heard at my whenever we're meeting. And so I assumed that at the highest levels of government, that wouldn't be an issue, yet it still is, because there are obviously like gender biases, right, tied into everything we do. What is it like? It's gonna be a super open ended question for you. But why is that? Like, what? What causes this to even be a thing?
5:36
Yeah, so first of all, that's a great conference, I've been to it myself. And I'm jealous that you got to see President Obama, I think was Condoleezza Rice, who was the keynote speaker when I attended, and that was great, too. But I've read that story. I've heard him talk about that story in the past how he had to pull those women aside and say, Hey, speak up? And yes, yes, we still have to do that. It even at the highest levels, my coaching clients are not just getting into leadership, they are already at the VP level, the C suite even. And they're still getting talked over by men. In fact, I just read a story. I think it was a Georgetown study that said men interrupt women 33% More than they interrupt other men in business settings. So why is that? And of course, it's multifaceted, and you don't have enough time, probably in the show to talk about it. But one of the reasons that we don't speak up is because of the socialization and the gender roles that we're exposed to at such a young age. So girls are taught, you know, be nice, be likable. Don't be bossy. Don't Don't make waves. Don't be in the way almost like a don't take up space. And boys get different messaging, right, they get beep, be in charge, take leadership, be proud of yourself take up space. It's that that training, and we all took those classes, I call them classes, it's socialization. Think about the commercials that we see the clothing that little girls wear some of the things that we've seen in stores that really are appalling, and they've ended up being removed. Let me let me just give you a real world example. So I'm at a hotel a couple of weeks ago, and you know, that crazy breakfast that they have down in the lobby where everybody's fighting over the muffins in the pancake thing and all that. So I'm down in the midst of all this, and here's a little girl, maybe three or four years old, and she bumped into someone, you know, the adults are cowering over, she bumped into someone. And she said with her head down, Mommy, I'm sorry. And her mother said, Sweetheart, you do not have to say you're sorry for that, you know, if you drop something on the ground, pick it up. It's fine. But she had already gotten the message that she was taking up too much space and was in the way. And I thought, wow, we're still giving that message to little girls. And her mother was trying to combat it, which I you know, I applaud that. But how that how does that translate? Well, you get that message your whole life. Now you're sitting in a big board meeting and you're nicely waiting, your turn to speak up, and you're never going to get a chance because everybody is jumping in. And unless you have someone say to you speak up your your message is important. Your ideas are important, you're going to be afraid to because you don't want to come across as overly aggressive, or not nice or bossy or all those other things that we heard our whole lives.
8:51
Right. So I guess what are some of the steps that we can take now? I mean, I'm father of two young daughters, right? I want to make sure they're getting the right message. What are some of the things I can be doing now to help set them up to to step up? Right and actually fill some of these leadership roles and not have to worry about some of the other like stigma, I guess that follows all this.
9:11
I'm glad you're trying to do that. I appreciate it. We need more women in leadership roles. Women made great leaders. Encourage her to share her opinion. Encourage her to speak up. Ask her for her opinion. And don't be little or shame. If she's taking up space or leading the group on the playground. Don't tell her she's being too bossy. Make sure that you're applying the same rules through the lens that you would if you had a son, that you would be encouraging your son to develop leadership skills, go out there and make something of yourself and be successful. The little girls used to be conditioned to attract a man, right? Our job was to become a wife and stay at home. And I mean, I know that's very much sort of a antiquated thought process. But it's very pervasive and it still exists. So you don't you want to make sure that you're not setting her up for the fear of speaking up by making sure that she's given opportunity. And same with adult women in the room. If you're leading a meeting, make sure that you're asking the women, what is your opinion, Sue? What do you think about this? Let's give sue a chance to speak. You know, we haven't heard from March yet. What is March think?
10:37
Yeah, so those are, I mean, those are things we're doing, my wife and I are definitely doing here in the house. My kids don't stop talking. So their opinions are always, always out there. The See, I guess, in the workplace, it does surprise me still, that leaders would bring in team members, right for their expertise, like you're making a hire because you want someone skills and their knowledge coming, being at the table having a voice. And yet, we still see that they're favoring certain opinions over others. And I'm sure some of this is probably actually, in your experience, or even with some of the stats you can probably produce. My assumption is that women are better at ensuring women's voices are being heard as well as men's versus men's. kind of pointing some people out. And I don't know if that's so much as within culture, we tend to gravitate towards people like us. And it may be because women are more aware of that they're not doing I don't I'm spitballing here, but could you speak more on that? Yeah,
11:45
I'm glad you brought that up. There is an affinity bias, we tend to be see leaders and people who are like us, right? People who look like us who went to similar schools, similar backgrounds, we all have that affinity bias. So we're going to feel more comfortable around people who are like us, we all feel that way. So you have to be aware that that exists, and make sure that you're not falling victim to it yourself. That being said, there is such thing as for women and assertive backlash, it's it's a double bind. So when we are assertive, there's a backlash because we're acting outside of what would be considered the normal, normal gender role. And women are not immune to showing that backlash against other women. Because we took that class too, we got those messages to What are you doing being bossy? Who do you think you are speaking up like that, especially if we feel like we can't, or we're ashamed to or afraid to. So it's not just men that put these rules on women, other women can put these rules on each other too, which is unfortunate. But we don't realize that we've internalized this bias. So it's more it's, it's more pervasive. And then I think we realize, and making sure that you're aware of it is the first step to overcoming it.
13:11
Right? So one of the things I'm slowly teaching this skill to my daughters, generally, if someone else has a different opinion than you, if you just say, hey, no, you're wrong, they shut down, right? They're not gonna listen to you. They don't want to hear it. But if you can tell them a story, where they come to that conclusion themselves, it's up now they're, they realize it and they want to say in congruence with whatever thought they're having. And so they end up siding with you, kind of unintentionally, and but then they realize it and they're good. And I wonder how much that skill here would actually help with just being able to tell the stories that come have people come to that conclusion that like, Oh, I am wrong here. I like, potentially fix it.
13:55
Yeah, I like that. So let me give you an example of where this gender bias or this sort of affinity bias might come into play. Let's say you have two candidates that are interviewing for a leadership role. One is male, one is female, they both have equal credentials, equal experience. So far, they're both equally qualified. Here's how that could play out with these gender biases layered on top. So you say about the man, wow, he's kind of great potential. You say about the woman, man, she comes on really strong. I don't know how she's going to fit into the culture. You say about the man. I really like his approach to this. He seems like he's going to be a really strong leader. You say about the woman? I don't know. She may, she may rub people the wrong way that this might not be a good culture fit for us. And really, they're exhibiting the same behaviors.
14:51
Right? And it's just because you have that that bias Yeah, set.
14:56
So you have to watch for that and be willing to call each other out. And one way to do that to your point is to use the Socratic method like you like or tell a story. So, Chris Voss his book, which is called never split the difference, I don't know if you're familiar with Chris Voss, his work. He was an FBI hostage negotiator. And that book taught me a lot about negotiation using the Socratic method. So say, you know, you're saying, she comes on really strong, I don't think she's going to be a good culture fit. She comes on strong, she's not a good culture fit. What do you mean by that? Sure. Tell me some examples, asking for specific evidence to support that feeling or opinion, rather than just saying you're wrong and getting into a fight over ideology. But digging in and seeing why do you think that what's making you feel that way? Right. That's a good approach. Yeah,
15:52
I like that one, too. Let's get into diminishers. And, and just, what are they? And why should we avoid them?
16:02
Oh, I'm chuckling at that, because so many of us and it's not just women that do this, men do it too. But we are so bad sometimes at promoting ourselves because we've been taught not to. So here's how that plays out in, say, a communication, you're writing an email. So you need to ask your boss who perhaps hasn't responded to you, I'm giving you just a hypothetical situation. And you need this information by Friday, in order to give a report that's due on Friday, boss hasn't responded. I'm let's say, Chris, you're my boss, I'm and if I'm a diminisher, I'm going to email you something like this. The subject line is going to say our project. Okay. And I'm going to say, Hey, Chris, I'm just circling back to see if maybe you had time to look over the project requirements that I sent you last week. I know you're really busy. And so if maybe you could get back to me before Friday, it would be really great, because this is due on Friday. Right? The diminishers there, I just thought maybe I was hoping that. Instead, you should put in the subject line, project due Friday, need your review? And then you say, Chris, our project is due on Friday? What's keeping you from responding? Or do you need anything else for me to have to get these materials in by Friday? Really looking forward to your response? Do you need anything you know, do you need anything else from me very, none of the apologies, none of that I just thought maybes get rid of those especially the word just whenever you use the word just you just canceled out like I just did. What you said before it diminishes what you said before it, I was I'm just checking in. That means nothing now. So working on being conscious of that language choice. And working to eliminate it when you do it in an email, you can go back and read it. But getting used to removing those diminishers I'm sorry to bother you, Chris. But I really need this by Friday. Those kinds of things are really hampering our success. If we use them regularly, we're not being successful in our jobs, because those language choices are preventing us from succeeding in getting what we need from the other person. Now I'm
18:35
sure not clear, right? I'm sure that works due on the on the receiving of praise. And I feel like there's probably a lot of times where women will kind of pass that pray like, oh, no, no, no, like, it's fine. It was not there was nothing. It's like really like no, it was actually pretty great. Like, right? Do you find that you're saying right?
18:57
I call that the old this old thing. I've had it for years when somebody says, Oh, I really like your outfit. You know, the old Oh, this old thing. I've had it for years exactly. What you're doing when you do that is you're dis you're brushing off a compliment that someone else gave you. You're discounting something that someone else said, which is actually kind of rude. It's much better to think thank you. I appreciate that i or i My favorite. Thank you. I appreciate you for saying that. And then if you're if you're uncomfortable, give give the other person a compliment. I really like your presentation this afternoon. Turn the tables on and ask them about themselves. But don't brush off compliment them. Yes. Yeah.
19:37
So I read that in a book and I wish I remembered which one right now so I could credit the author. But I started paying attention to that with other people and then even with myself, and it was it's hard to accept praise a lot. I definitely noticed it more on the female side for them not accepting it, but it was it became like a practice of mine to like No, no, you're good like accept it. deal with it, I'm giving you this praise, you're stuck with it. And I was like, Oh, okay.
20:07
That's a terrific insight, it is something that we need to work on, accepting compliments accepting praise. Again, don't diminish those things. In fact, I recommend to my clients that they keep what I call an awesome file. So when someone does praise you, especially via email or something, drag that into your awesome file and keep those moments of praise. That way, when you have to do your self evaluation, the next year, you will have some of those testimonials from your stakeholders or other clients that you've worked with our customers. And you don't have to go through and try to dig them all up. But it's also kind of nice to see that you have made an impact and that you are being praised. And that you deserve it.
20:49
Yeah, that was something. So when I was in the army, this was something that came from well before the digital age. But everyone had a binder of all of their awards or promotions or their everything and they called it the I Love Me book. And you kept track of this, because if the army lost all your paperwork, you wanted a copy of it. But it was also something nice after you know, when you retire, get out, you can flip through and see all of these different awards and things you've done. And so like I did that, like I have a notion file now that I use for anytime I get a good review, slap it in there. But you're right, it does. It makes you feel good. Even just going back and like I did do all these things like I earned that acknowledgement, like it feels good. Yeah. So but let's shift back now. What are some of the the typical behaviors, I guess, in your experience that that do hold women back? And we've talked about like diminishers, within like emails, and maybe even accepting praise and stuff? Or what are some of the other things that they can be more aware of? Yeah,
21:49
those are all great things to start on. So removing the word just from your communications, being more clear, being more clear about what it is you're asking for. Sometimes we're trying to dance around it. So we don't seem aggressive. when really we need to be assertive, I always say clear is kind. Tell the person what you need. So they don't have to put on a secret decoder ring and try to guess or figure it out, in your email very often fewer words is better when it comes to getting your job done. And remember, your company is paying you to get this job done. And you know, your likeability Well, of course, that's a factor. And you do want people to respect and like you, you can't do it at the expense of success with your job, you have to you owe them the deliverables that you've agreed on. And that's a transaction that you are responsible for. So you have to own leadership of yourself in the way that you communicate so that you're doing that successfully. You also have to show your work. A lot of women will put their head down and work very hard. And not brag about it. I'm using brag in air quotes, because it's not bragging when you show your work, but many women think that it is. So they'll work overtime, they'll work during their lunch, and no one knows it. And then guess what, when it's time for promotion, that people who are working hard and are visible and their work is visible. They're the ones that are considered. And the women who work hard, but don't tell anyone. And don't tell anyone their goals. Don't tell anyone, hey, someday I'd like to be a partner in this organization. They never say that. They just assume people know it. Those are all ways in which we hold ourselves back from succeeding. And there's a lot of monetary loss associated with that, too, if you're not getting the salary bumps, because no one knows the work that you're doing. Because you're hiding it trying to be humble. Yeah,
24:00
no, I mean, that's a great point. I mean, on expectation management, I think that's that is one of the biggest reasons that people will fail in business, whether it's with their team, whether it's with, you know, the their boss, if they're coming from that side, their clients, it's just amazing how much is paying attention to the the expectations you're setting can help you. But something with showing your work, I actually saw a I'll say it was on Instagram the other day, but it was a post by by a woman who saying she would show up to do some of these big presentations for like boards and everything. And she found the best approach was to do all of the work, have it all in the slide deck. But then start at the very end of the deck and make sure they know you're on like the last slide where she's hitting like, this is my conclusion. This is what we need to do. And then whenever someone asks a question, she can flip through everything that she has done in preparation for this and she's done so much work, but she's able to show the work within that slide deck. And by the sheer volume of slides. Everybody knows Hey, she has put in her her work. work here. And so it, it kind of got rid of some of those those thoughts of like, Oh, she doesn't know what she's talking about, like, no, she came prepared. And so I don't know if for whatever that's worth, I think it could be helpful exercise to be
25:12
absolutely, you know, we think we're going to put our head down and work really hard. And magically, someone's going to notice and reward you for it. And it doesn't work like that. You have to, you have to with intent show that you are working, and toot your own horn once in a while, of course, of course, compliment your team, of course, give credit where credit is due, and give credit to the larger organization and the team members that contributed, but also take some of the credit for what you did yourself.
25:44
Right? Well, no, actually i i tell my team to like, bring all of the things that that you've done great, you know, over this rating period, bring it in so that we can look at it. And one of my designers brought in every website that she had worked on over that period of time, and she was like on fire, like I mean, it was it is impossible to get a bad review when you're able to like when she was showing all of that work. It was it was awesome. But let's get another one of the last questions, I guess. How can women kind of advocate for themselves more, especially when they're they're starting to feel kind of invisible? Like they're not, you know, making making waves, I guess, at work and actually doing the things that are get people notice? How can they start to actually build that up? So they they are?
26:31
Yeah, that's a great question. And it's multifaceted. You have to first of all, get comfortable being uncomfortable, because it does feel uncomfortable to do some of these things, to send that email to your boss and say, Hey, I wanted to loop you in on this, this success, these wins that my team just had, or get, you know, I just did XYZ and I wanted you to be aware, making sure that your boss has visibility to your work, I even recommend, ask him ask your boss, how much visibility Do you want or need. I've done that and found out that they want or need a whole lot more than I thought, I thought oh, they probably get so many emails, I don't want to bother them with more emails or more meeting requests. It was actually the opposite. They wanted to be seed on communications that I was having with with clients, customers, other managers, and they wanted to be invited to my meetings, even if they don't come. They want to know that they're on the calendar and that they're happening. So what visibility do you need that you currently don't have with your immediate supervisor, and also others in the organization that you could easily fix by asking them? How can I best communicate my work to you? So that you have and I'm not talking about bragging, or you know them getting all up in your business and managing you. I'm talking about visibility. That's the key word, you need to be visible. And you need to speak up in those meetings. And one way to do that is and I didn't mention this before, I'm going to Well, I have some funny, like, I have these mugs that I bring opinion loading, or this one here, especially, you know, when you when you're afraid to ask for I'm going to say my opinion or Hello, I have an idea. You can warn people by saying I'm gonna express my opinion right now or I have a thought on this right now. And then they'll go oh, okay, Sue is about to talk. But if you wait and just jump in with your opinion, or you might get talked over your might get interrupted by someone. Little tactics like that, that let people know I'm about to say something important. Please listen, those are all things that you can do. Tack that are tactics to help you become more visible and more heard.
28:53
Right. And then I guess, flipping that a bit as the leader asking for those opinions, like, in front of making a point, something we've done in meetings is asking a question and then saying, we're like when someone starts to answer, hold up introverts first, and they kind of get I like it, you know, joking. Like everyone takes it a nobody's taking offense to it. But then the introverts are like, Okay, I'm on the spot. It's my turn to talk. And they, they usually do they say something great. And let's like alright, I'm glad we got that in here. Because now it's part of the conversation. I
29:26
like that. Yeah. Or it's let's say, Chris, you're dominating the conversation. And I'm running the meeting. I might say, Chris, you've had some really great ideas. Let's hear from March. Now. Let March. What do you think, let you know you, you have to be good at leading the meeting and give other people especially other women, if they're sitting there, literally not trying not to take up space. Give them an opportunity to take up some space and answer some questions.
29:52
Yeah. And it's important if you're going to attend a meeting, you should probably contribute to the meeting. Right there. I make it and make it a point to know Yeah, if you're gonna be there, let's do something with it, make it make it happen make it important for valuable for your time and for the company's time.
30:09
And leaders, please make sure you're not always nominating a woman to take the notes. That keeps them from participating because now their focus is trying to capture what everyone else is saying. Make sure that you rotate those housekeeping tasks, those what what we call non promotable tasks around the team equally, so that it's not always defaulted to a female to take the notes that that sometimes can also hold women back because now they're not participating. Right?
30:41
Okay, you can only be doing one thing at a time. So exactly, man, all great points. So this has been awesome conversation, I got three more questions I'm going to send your way here. With the first one being what book do you recommend? Everyone should read?
30:57
Um, am I allowed to say my book?
31:00
Can but I'm gonna ask you for another one after? Okay. Well, I
31:04
did write a book on leadership linguistics, because little tactics like these that are clear without a lot of fluff or storytelling. My book leadership linguistics contains a lot of these things. So removing just using and instead of butter, when to use the different things. So that's one book, if you're specifically talking about women, and the ways in which they hold themselves back how women rise is a terrific book, to really speak to all of the all of the things and more that we've talked about today. I recommend that to a lot of my clients. It's a terrific book. It's written by two psychologists. And they've studied for years and the ways in which women hold themselves back in the workplace. And it's very simple tactical things that you can change. Awesome.
31:53
All right, now I got two books to pick up. So what next question what is next for you professionally?
32:03
I would like to do more speaking engagements. I really enjoy those. I've been ramping up my presence on LinkedIn and my website to try to get more like hour long seminars, speaking engagements about these topics, because I'm finding that it really resonates with especially women's groups, women who work in male dominated industries, so say construction or, you know, architecture engineering firms, it, I'm finding these, these are really resonating with those folks. So that's sort of that's on my radar to do. I'm already doing quite a bit of speaking but I love to speak at apt groups, or do be the keynote. So that's definitely something that I would love to do more of. Awesome.
32:49
And then finally, where can people find you?
32:52
Oh, absolutely. My website is Carmine media.com. And like we've talked about I am suddenly tick tock famous and all of a sudden, Facebook famous to when reels came out. I started publishing these exact same videos and my Facebook page blew up so Carmine media on tick tock on Instagram, and of course my website. Awesome.
33:19
Yeah, we're gonna take a note on how you're doing videos so that we can do some short form content. Everyone can blow up. I would love to help you. Awesome. Sue. Thank you for joining me. This has been awesome.
33:28
Thank you for having me. Wonderful talking to you.
33:35
If you enjoyed today's episode, I would love a rating and review on your favorite podcast player. And for more information on how to build effective and efficient teams through your leadership. Visit leading four.com As always deserve it
Transcribed by https://otter.ai