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Thoughts and ideas on education, culture, psychology, social science and more from our academics, students, alumni and wider community to create lasting and evolving change. Podcasts brought to you by UCL Institute of Education (IOE), the world's leading centre for education and social science research, courses and teaching, and a faculty of University College London (UCL).
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Voiceover 1: You're listening to IOE Insights, the UCL Institute of Education podcast at University College London.
Leda Kamenopoulou: Welcome to the second episode of Inclusive Voices, a series on the IOE Insights podcast created through the project Collaborative Knowledge Exchange in sensory needs education, funded by UK Research and Innovations Higher Education Innovation Fund. I am your host, Dr Leda Kamenopoulou, Associate Professor and expert on Deafblindness and Sensory Accessibility and Programme Lead for UCL's MA in Special and Inclusive Education. Through this series, we aim to create a truly collaborative space where research, professional practice and lived experience share insights, challenge assumptions and co-construct knowledge that can really support inclusive educational practice. In today's episode, we turn our attention to the English School's White Paper *Every Child Achieving and Thriving*, a major and timely development in the sector, with the consultation currently open until May 18 2026.
The white paper proposes major reforms for special educational needs and disabilities, and it has sparked significant debate across education, particularly around inclusion, provision and outcomes for children and young people with SEND. I am delighted to be joined by three leading experts whose background includes research, teacher education, practice and policy analysis, each offering valuable insight shaped by both scholarship and their direct experience of educational practice. Doctor. David Turton, multi sensory impairment teacher and habilitation specialist and programme lead for UCL's graduate diploma in habilitation and disabilities off-site. Caireen Sutherland, MSI and vision impairment specialist and programme lead for the mandatory qualification in MSI Deafblind at the Seashell Trust, and Dr Duncan Mercieca, lecturer in special educational needs, disability and inclusive education at the IOE. Welcome everyone.
Duncan Mercieca: Hello.
Leda Kamenopoulou: My first question to you. Research shows that practitioners may struggle to identify sensory impairments, and this is even more problematic in the case of combined sensory impairments like Deafblindness, otherwise known as multisensory impairment. The School's White Paper emphasises earlier identification and intervention. How does this play out in your area of sensory impairment? And what are the most common barriers to getting support in place early enough? Caireen.
Caireen Sutherland: Thank you. This is such a complex, multilayered question which interlinks I think with so many areas. There is a lot of evidence which supports how positive the impact is on early intervention in the field of sensory impairment, specifically vision and multi sensory impairment. I think we are all quite convinced of that and value that early intervention. The most common barriers to getting the support in place are multi faceted I think. One is for children who have a multi sensory impairment and complex additional needs is getting an accurate diagnosis, whether that's clinically or functionally from professionals or clinicians. And often the support hinges on a diagnosis or some kind of label in order to access services.
So that can cause some delay in getting support in place early enough. There are many other aspects to getting that support in place quickly and efficiently enough.
Leda Kamenopoulou: Such as for example?
Caireen Sutherland: I wondered if David wanted to come in or whether he wanted me to carry on, David.
David Turton: So I agree with all of that as well and I think that the diagnosis and the identification as having a vision impairment and having a hearing impairment at being deaf is important individually. And then at the level of sensory support services, it relies on there being that coordination and understanding across those two services if you like to identify which children are multi sensory impaired. And I think that requires understanding of multi sensory impairment as a unique disability by professionals in each of the single sensory impairments which again it's about conversations and co-working across those different specialisms. And I think that goes more broadly as well to other services that might be involved. So particularly for early years there's Portage, there's the various people and professionals around what in the proposals they're calling best start centers, the kind of reinvention of the SureStart sensors and nursery settings and all of the different people who need that kind of awareness of what that means to be identified as multi sensory impaired.
Leda Kamenopoulou: Thank you. Thank you. That's actually very, very, you both made very good points. Duncan, did you want to come in?
Duncan Mercieca: I agree with my colleagues here. We need just a note of caution when we talk of early identification and early intervention. And we've talked about impairments have been mentioned, but we need also to see this within a whole discourse of difference. And for example, let's acknowledge that different people have different experiences of life. For example, coming from different cultures, from different backgrounds, they might experience things in different ways.
So whilst we need to support people through a processes of labelling and diagnosis and identification, yet let's also keep that there's a bigger context at play here. So we need to make sure that once we want to support early identification intervention, also give respect to different ways how people live their lives differently and acknowledge that they come from different contexts as well. So I think that needs to be put in in the conversation as well.
Leda Kamenopoulou: Thank you. So on to the next question. From my own work and practice, I know that there is lack of teacher training on sensory impairments or more generally lack of teacher training on the role of the senses in learning and development. The white paper highlights the need for a more skilled and confident workforce And they also mentioned experts at hand this term. So from your perspective, what specialist knowledge or training is currently missing in mainstream settings when it comes to hearing, vision, multi sensory impairment and how could that be addressed?
David?
David Turton: Thanks. So yeah, I would I think to answer that question, I would also say that this is an answer where there's layers to this question of training and a bigger picture involved. So I think first of all, for initial teacher education, all trainee teachers need to have a really good working knowledge of child development as such and particularly in the early years and I think that's a really essential foundation for everything else and counts for a lot. And there's some really good documentation that presents this very clearly like the Birth to Five Matters materials and similar publications that outline aspects of relationships and enabling environments and factors that are beyond the within the child factors. As for the specific training for multi sensory impairments, I think the challenge is that it's a low incidence and also very diverse area of need and I think that the proposed structures for specialist support, so the specialist provision packages at the highest level but also the experts at hand model that's being proposed need to be sufficiently flexible to allow for different approaches to training that are child centered to that individual child's needs but also tailored to the specific situation of that child both home and school on stage relevant training.
And also which staff are going to be involved with that young person because the role of the SENCO is something that I think is evolving and there's discussion of that in the proposals and also the kind of mechanisms for support within schools. So there's discussion of the support bases in every secondary funded by the school and then specialist bases in some places funded by local authority. And I think we have to think who are the adults and within the structure that the local arrangements who are the people who are in a position to be able to arrange and deliver the day to day support that those children with multi sensory impairments specifically need. And we need a training approach that considers all the difference and subtlety of that.
Leda Kamenopoulou: Thank you. Duncan?
Duncan Mercieca: I'm going to mention two points which builds on David's kinds of reflection. The first point is that there's the discourse rotates around skills and being confident in doing something. I think there's also a second dimension that is as important, which is teachers' attitudes and judgments. I think even if you are the most skilled person in the world, if you don't have that attitude that you want to be with children, that you want to work with children, that you want to make a difference, it's relevant if you have the skills. If you don't have that attitude, that openness, that curiosity of wanting.
We know that most teachers have these skills. Very often they're constrained within a system that doesn't always allow them to let these. I think we have a very prescriptive system. And I think sometimes we need to lessen that to let teachers' judgment, teachers' attitudes, teachers' relationships to come out. And linking to this is a second point, which is I think our education system is very cognitive oriented.
And this, I think if we need to allow for more sensorial feelings, acknowledging that there's an emotion, of course, there's a history to this. I mean, we always, know, without philosophising too much, but the Descarte's idea, *I think, therefore I am*, is crucial here. But I think even for our children that work through their senses, I think we need to be open more to the sensorial. I think we need to think of children as having emotions and effects. And I think this is important for teachers to continue to nurture and develop together with their skills.
Leda Kamenopoulou: Thank you. So, from what you're saying, I'll come to you, Caireen, Caireen, but from what both David and Duncan are saying, we seem to be agreeing that a combination, two things are needed. Yes, supporting the specialist workforce and finding a model that manages to support, you know, practitioners in mainstream settings. But also, perhaps what Duncan is saying is that we need more awareness raising at the broader level and bringing some ideas in the minds of teachers who work in mainstream schools, even knowledge around certain impairments can be less common. Caireen?
Caireen Sutherland: Yeah, I think Duncan and David raised some really interesting points and sort of Duncan, I take from yours the base values that we might want to instil in teachers and have all teachers having in a reflective way so that regardless of what a child may have going on for them when they're in that person's classroom, the attitudes and approach are there. I really think we probably don't place value on that in our teacher training and our specialist training as much as we should. And that probably links to the system that we are all working in, you also highlight in your answer. David, you talked about the initial teacher training and again, sort of a broader approach to that that might be needed because of the low incidence nature of sensory impairment. And I think that would probably be my final point to this question is that the low incidence nature of sensory impairment presents so many challenges.
In particular when talking about successful mainstream or inclusive education, whichever you want to call it. And I think there are some practical things we can look at like what is in the initial teacher training and what is in SENCO training. But maybe because of the low incidence nature, some of these broader brush strokes and values approaches are also needed and we don't tend to look at it like that. But I think there's some real value potential there.
Leda Kamenopoulou: Thank you. I agree. This is a good point. And for example, sensory accessibility, accessibility for people with sensory impairments can support other learners. Strategies that are accessible can support all learners and strengthen their support, their learning.
Right? Okay. So my next question is about the tension between the mainstream and the special education. So mainstreaming is increasingly presented in current discourse in the wider field as well, not only nationally, are synonymous with inclusion. So mainstream placement is considered synonymous with inclusion very often, which can be concerning if we think about some of those learners with the most complex needs.
In the White Paper, again there is a strong focus on inclusion within mainstream education. So I'd like to ask you, how can schools genuinely include learners with sensory impairments without losing the benefits of specialist provision and expertise?
Caireen Sutherland: I think this question links quite closely to our previous question and discussion in that the low incidence nature of sensory impairment comes up and we can't reasonably expect all schools to have specific access that suits a child with deaf blindness, multi sensory impairment or one with a specific vision impairment because it can be quite individual. So I think some of the strategies here are by looking at a more general broad approach to what our mainstream options look like. How inclusive are they in the broader terms in terms of the Equality Act and accessibility and reasonable adjustments for all of our children who go to school in The UK, not just those with sensory impairment. And then within that, we need to then recognise that if all of that is successfully achieved, well, for a start we could all retry but also we can then add on to that the specialist input so that that's the next layer on top of a really strong foundation. So it is the need to have that base layer in a general for all children and then also recognise what they don't know.
And that's always the challenge, what do people not know and where do they ask? And I think the White Paper is attempting to address that with these different levels and with the experts at hand model and these other packages that they're proposing in the consultation.
David Turton: Yeah, I think all of that is so important and that broader lens on what schools are doing. I think that needs to be our starting point. I think that for me the thing that's on my mind with this often is opportunities for peer interactions and what that looks like in mainstream or in special schools and it presents different challenges how you do that well in different kinds of setting. Something that I think is not discussed as much as maybe it needs to be is the ways in which mainstream settings actually even for children with more complex needs can present more opportunities for peer interaction and access to different social situations, different events, different things happening around them. And I think it's thinking about how do we structure whatever provision those children are in, in a way that facilitates that contact with others and it doesn't have to be perfect in terms of their exact profile for communication and you know it's not about tailoring that more and more to the exact profile of that child.
Sometimes it's just about more range of things that they can encounter and presenting those opportunities. And I think that links also with teachers opportunities to get into different settings and see other people practising whether it's across between mainstream and special or just within a setting between different classrooms, different key stages. Are all the teachers in the school aware of what happens in the specialist base or the support base? Have they had opportunities to see that and to join up the dots of what provision is available for those individual children?
Leda Kamenopoulou: Thank you. Can I ask you also, what do you see in all this? Where do you see the role of specialists, such for example rehabilitation specialists and other specialist staff? How do you see them perhaps facilitating this?
David Turton: I think it requires all specialists to have a much broader purview if you like of like what it is they're going in to see. And I think in the busyness of schools and the intensity of everybody's jobs and big caseloads that lens can kind of narrow to the individual child and what can that child do and what's their sensory functioning and that's far too narrow for what we're really trying to achieve for those children. We have to I think keep reminding ourselves to look more broadly at the other children in the class, what's happening for them, what's their experience of that classroom and how does it compare to the experience of the child that we might be there to see. And similarly like the culture of the school, what are the routines, what happens through the day, what's the timetable, is it staggered, what's happening on the corridors at different times, what do teachers do if they need additional information about children and just I think keep widening out that view because then at least we're aware of what's happening and what the context is and we can address each stage of that in a way that's tailored to it.
Duncan Mercieca: I trained as a primary school teacher and taught in primary settings and I also worked in specialist schools, went back to primary, went back to specialist schools. So it's been a journey between specialised provisions and mainstream provisions. And I think we talk of learners, so my focus is always where is the best place that a learner can actually learn. And that is my kind of criteria. But we have to be careful that because of this, we don't exclude people because sometimes we don't want specialised settings or provisions to become a sort of exclusionary kind of situation.
But I think if we look at the idea of universal design for our schools, that we start from assuming that we all need a particular way of thinking, of being, of learning. And I think that's a very good starting point for mainstream schools. How can everyone, not only just people, but also the spaces where we learn, also the textbooks that we use, also the resources that we use, also the people are in some way working together to support each other in this learning journey. So I think this idea of universal design needs to be taken more seriously and it's not an addition on something. You know, sometimes I meet teachers and tell me, give me some examples of universal design.
It doesn't work like that. It works, it's the foundation almost step for a teacher within a school. We talk of universal design, not only just being in a classroom, but being the whole school that offers this kind of way of learning. So I think there is scope here to develop our understanding of universal design and explore how it will work.
Leda Kamenopoulou: Thank you, Duncan. And actually this goes back to, it links back to the point I made about accessible practices that can support all learners. You remind me now of research I have seen which shows that the universal design approaches based on universal design have been bound to benefit Deafblind learners. And if something supports a learner with such complex needs, it's bound to be beneficial to more learners. So this is where universal design, accessible practices all become central and need to be, I agree, at the center of these proposals.
And my last question is about the well known tension between the standards and the inclusion agendas. So historically, research has shown that the standards and the inclusion agendas are incompatible. Right. Because schools focus on attainment and that by definition excludes learners who are not going to get the best results, right, or who need support to get to where they are supposed to be. Now the White Paper introduces I was actually really surprised to see that introduces new expectations around the standards and the inclusion agendas.
It specifically states that they go together, they're fully compatible. Yes. They also mentioned belonging surveys in relation to capturing outcomes. But to me, at least it was unclear how these these surveys will capture the voices of children with complex needs. Now my question is to you guys, what meaningful outcomes should we be measuring for children and young people with sensory impairments beyond academic attainment or attendance?
And which methods are best suited to capturing these outcomes in meaningful and inclusive ways? Duncan?
Duncan Mercieca: Yes. When I read the white paper and this compatibility between on the tension between standards and inclusion, it's my question was, is this a reframing of an unresolved kind of tension? And I don't think it's clear enough how this tension is going to be resolved, although it talks about compatibility. But if we look at meaningful outcomes, one could see it beyond attainment, but also part of attainment. And they have identified a few ideas that I think might be meaningful for children and young people with sensory impairments.
And this is one, it's a relation and belonging. I think this is very important that our children and young people feel that they are recognised, that they are listened to, that they could be that they feel responded to them. So I think that's the first one. I think the second one is that they have agency and the ability to communicate effectively. I think the third one is sensory access and environmental fitness.
It's providing environments that are adaptable to the child rather than the child always needs to adapt to diverse environments. Effective well-being and comfort, so the experience of safety, trust, a reduction of anxiety in educational spaces, and a question of identity and self understanding, which is a development of positive sense of self as learners and thus communicators. Just my last point is on the issue of this measurement of belonging. Whilst I think it's an interesting idea, but we need to be told what people understand by dis-belonging. Because I think belonging can be very problematic if we understand one form of belonging in a one particular school.
I think most in most places in The UK, our schools are diverse, and we need to challenge that there is one way of understanding belonging. So I think we shouldn't be talking about belonging, but maybe belongings. I know that that sounds dramatically right, but in a in a pluralistic way of belonging into something. And one person, one child, one young adult can belong in different groups and have a variety of belongings. So I think this idea of belonging needs to be unpacked, it needs to be challenged as well, and move and decolonise because I think there's a lot of a particular way of understanding which I don't think is always conducive to our children.
David Turton: That's a lot of the same thoughts that I have in response to that question as well Duncan's articulated really well though around how the idea of belonging which is much discussed at the moment, exactly what we mean by that. I think for me it comes back to what we were discussing earlier as well about healthy child development, what does that look like and we need that as the basis for them, what do healthy schools look like that foster that and I think this opens on to much broader social societal issues. I think there's a lot of fear in schools around both some of the things that we might think characterise relationships more broadly like there's a lot of policies banning physical contact, there's a lot of anxiety around touch and this is something that is absolutely at the heart of work that we might do with children with sensory impairments and also it relates to the peer relationships question of how they establish relationships with friends. Lots of people like to give their friends a hug, this is something that I think we should be advocating for the normal nature of that. It relates to what Duncan was saying earlier as well about things not just being cognitive in focus and as having a I think you said sensorial oriented kind of approach Duncan.
I think that's right and I think shifting away from just cognition to emotion and affect as you mentioned is a big part of this bigger context. I think as well as fear around things like physical contact, there's a lot of anxiety around the channels that are available to young people that they're trying to make use of like social media to foster community and relationships. And we have to think about well if that's not the medium for that to happen then how do we really determinedly create spaces including within education where that community can be fostered in a more organic, physical, proximal way that actually really supports a lot of the strategies that we might associate with sensory impairment. So I think there's lots of kind of interlinked issues here and it's difficult to capture and measure these things often and I think that's a challenge for putting together a new inspection system that does try to weight those things in addition to the academic standards.
Caireen Sutherland: Yeah, I absolutely agree with everything obviously that Duncan and David have both said about how we value and measure for want of a better word, what our young people with sensory impairment are achieving in education. And I did a piece of work on this with colleagues and we took this perhaps to a more sort of practical, well, what does this mean in the classroom for teachers who are having to report to a very cognitive focused exam focused system which does only place value on results. We probably all have very strong feelings about the system but at the moment that's the system we are operating in. What advice as specialists might we give to mainstream colleagues who are in between a rock and a hard place about how they do this? And we looked at the specialist curriculums or frameworks and that part of the work and understanding that needs to happen perhaps is an understanding that for children with sensory impairment, achievement and attainment looks different.
It starts with some of the things that you are both talking about and the belonging and the emotional resilience and abilities communication but it goes right through to recognising some of those specialists skills, whether that's touch, the use of touch, use of technology, all of those things that we may require of our young people with sensory impairment to achieve, but those need to be valued. And so we talked about the piece of work that perhaps would be valuable in stressing and highlighting those as equal to an academic achievement for want of a comparison and a route for the mainstream practitioners. It was a very interesting challenging piece of work we did, you can imagine.
David Turton: Sounds fascinating.
Leda Kamenopoulou: Brilliant. Thank you everyone. Thank you to our audience for joining us for this important and thought provoking conversation. Thank you to our guests for sharing their thoughts and expertise. Thank you everyone.
Duncan Mercieca: Thank you.
Caireen Sutherland: Thank you.
David Turton: Thanks Leda.
Leda Kamenopoulou: As the consultation on the school's White Paper here in England continues and the major policy reforms are underway, we encourage you to reflect on the ideas shared today and consider how research, practice and lived experience can come together to shape more inclusive futures. Let's keep listening, learning and working collaboratively towards education systems where every child can truly achieve and thrive. This podcast series is funded by UK Research and Innovations Higher Education Fund, and we look forward to continuing to share insights that strengthen inclusive practice for children and young people with sensory impairments and complex needs. I am Leda. See you next time.
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