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Board Governance Best Practices and Stories/Experiences Shared
Gareth Gregory: [00:00:01] Part of the reason that governance fails is that you have such a historic, out of date perspective as to what it actually means. Under 40 year olds sitting on boards making decisions, only 0.3%. You've got to get real in terms of innovation, how quickly things are adapting and moving. I meet people that sit on boards probably every week, and I can honestly say I would lose sleep if 95% of them sat on our board. It just seems like a very detached perception of reality.
Munir Haque: [00:00:39] Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of The Boardroom 180 Podcast. I'm your host Munir Haque, an executive coach and senior board strategist. I have partnered with Action Edge Executive Development to lead their governance and political acumen division. In each episode we meet with governance leaders and step into their boardrooms, where decisions shape the world around us.
Munir Haque: [00:00:59] On today's show, we have Gareth Gregory. He's with the Energy Security Services North America Inc., or ESSNA, the North American head of strategic energy, client delivery and 59Hydrogen Decarbonization Division. Gareth Gregory is the leader in strategic energy solutions, specializing in decarbonization strategies for industries with carbon liabilities. As the North American head, Gareth oversees operations, growth and the implementation of DAAS carbon intensity framework. A hydrogen specialist, he manages the design, funding and operation of decentralized modular hydrogen plants. His experience spans energy economics, policy and technology, integrating these with ESG reporting to drive meaningful impact. Gareth has also delivered capital projects exceeding $1 billion globally, gaining a reputation for innovative decarbonization programs. Under his leadership, ESSNA developed refinery projects and modular hydrogen solutions across North America. He holds a BCom in Auditing and Management Accounting from the University of Pretoria and a BSc Honors in Energy Studies, cum laude from University of Johannesburg. Welcome to The Boardroom 180 Podcast, Gareth.
Gareth Gregory: [00:02:15] Thank you very much for having me, it's a great pleasure being here.
Munir Haque: [00:02:19] Thanks for making the time. We met last year at the Petroleum Club, I think there was an event going on there. I was sitting at a table and there was a lawyer there, and I was giving her my spiel about The Boardroom 180 podcast on governance. When she heard governance she said, you need to talk to this guy over here, pointing at you. Admittedly, I don't know much about hydrogen production or use. Before we get into the nuts and bolts of this, tell me a little more about yourself and your career arc, how you got into what you're doing now.
Gareth Gregory: [00:03:00] It's been a great journey over many years, this being our sixth company now. I think, on the entrepreneurship side, we've always been looking out for great opportunities. The educational side of my background has certainly assisted and helped both in the finance and the technical side. But I think what was really important was the journey to get to this point in time now in North America and overseeing both the Canadian markets and the US market. In the early days, we had established a company that focused on energy modeling and planning, which is very much a professional services orientated environment. Over a period we had clients that were asking us to oversee construction, which we did. Then we started doing a lot of our own construction, and it got to a point that we developed ourselves into an EPCM, engineering, procurement, construction and management firm for the sub-Saharan African market. There was a great experience having both the background modeling knowledge, but also the ability to start building out on smaller projects in terms of delivery. Shortly after that, we had one of our clients that had engaged with us on a combined cycle gas and steam turbine design, their internal engineering department couldn't maintain the efficiencies of the system.
Gareth Gregory: [00:04:19] They actually sold that facility back to us for 50% of what we had sold it to them at. That was our first off balance sheet transaction. The reason that that is so important is that I think that actually enabled our arrival and expansion now, both in Canada as well as the US, understanding an annuity based financial model. About 14 years ago was our introduction into hydrogen, possibly by some level of fluke. We had a client that required a 4% hydrogen mix in their annealing ovens, which was natural gas driven. That was our first hydrogen facility and we were all pretty impressed with ourselves at 4:00 in the morning, that everything was commissioned. To cut a long story short, we had a couple of opportunities in North America, and we had made the decision in 2019 to start focusing on the North American market. I arrived fresh on the ground here in Calgary, Alberta, in May 2021. Like I say, it's certainly been a journey, but a bit of it has been a fluke. But we highly specialize now both in decarbonization as well as hydrogen.
Munir Haque: [00:05:25] So you haven't been here that long then. Essentially, you've seen some growth in that time. Why don't you explain a little bit the relationship between ESSNA and 59Hydrogen. Is 59Hydrogen a project for that company?
Gareth Gregory: [00:05:45] It's a great question. Energy Security Services North America, in terms of the acronym ESSNA, focuses on our professional services side, our funding and financing, all of our professional services around energy modeling and planning, Decarbonization as a Service which is the DAAS acronym that you mentioned earlier, that's all housed within ESSNA. 59Hydrogen is our hydrogen technology which covers generation, purification. It also, now more recently, is covering dispensing as well. You can see the 59Hydrogen brand as the physical delivery of those hydrogen molecules, and you can view ESSNA as the back-end planning and modeling business that enables all that upcoming business and the existing business as well now within North America.
Munir Haque: [00:06:42] You say that you focus on hydrogen as well as decarbonization. Explain that a little bit more. More so about, as a layperson here, what the relationship is between hydrogen and decarbonization.
Gareth Gregory: [00:06:56] To understand that value proposition, we need to understand what's happening at a macro level as well. There's been a lot of fluff within the market. We always say anybody that invested in a wind project either didn't build the model or possibly had accepted a bribe somewhere along the line or both. That's very evident in sub-Saharan Africa as well as North America. There's been a huge misconception as to what decarbonization is actually about, and I think there's a lot of consultants within the industry which make that misunderstanding so much more severe than what it could have been. But the reality is that the UNFCCC article six corresponding adjustments is pretty clear where decarbonization is currently heading. That said, if you're producing a specific product in a specific area geographically, you export that product to another geography, if you have not got your house in order in terms of your carbon intensity, you're going to be charged an additional tax. Think of it as a bit of a perverted ad valorem duty on luxury goods coming into a specific country.
Gareth Gregory: [00:08:05] This is very much a carbon taxation which will be levied at the point of entry of that foreign economy. Decarbonization is the end point, which is the measure as to what you have done to date, to what extent you've actually reduced your carbon intensity. Now, hydrogen is a tool of many to achieve a level of decarbonization. As we would build out an energy model, a big component of that has to do with the decarbonization aspect of that energy model, how we can reduce carbon intensity. But the reality is that hydrogen, just like any other technology, is not a golden bullet. It has a very specific application, and we just happened to become very specialized in that particular area now. It's definitely two areas that are intertwined, there's no doubt about it. It's very difficult to deliver one without the other. But nonetheless, like I said, it's an area that we are very specialized in and it's something that we can measure and understand what we're actually achieving through that process.
Munir Haque: [00:09:19] Maybe it's obvious, but why did you choose Alberta or Calgary as opposed to other major energy producing areas in North America?
Gareth Gregory: [00:09:29] Canada as a whole is a very inviting economy. I think just purely being in Canada gives you phenomenal access into the US as well. Both my wife and I and all of our kids, we really enjoy and love Canadian culture. So I think that was a big part of it. With these types of questions, I think the single version of the truth is that it's usually 51% gut feeling and 49% fact. Coming into Canada, we originally had an idea of setting it up in Vancouver. Through a couple of discussions with the Canadian High Commission in Johannesburg, South Africa, we then made the decision to shift over to Calgary, Alberta. It was a bit more of a gut feeling, we made a phenomenal decision in hindsight as to where we've set up and the benefits associated with it. The oil and gas sector, in Alberta in particular, is going through quite a turbulent period. You've got this tug of war with the federal government all the time.
Gareth Gregory: [00:10:31] I think there's a number of very good decisions being made from a provincial level. We view ourselves as a catalyst within that environment. Not to say that the oil and gas sector doesn't have its own exclusivity and challenges within Alberta, but I think the market where it's heading is going to erode that resistance to external influence. We view ourselves as part of the solution around natural gas. As you know, today it's at rock bottom levels and hydrogen is a very interesting component to that. You add all that together, all the geopolitical aspects, you add access into North America, the US market, I think the US market is on steroids at the moment, it's going to be so for at least the next four years minimum. That all counted towards that decision, apart from the fact that we are all avid rock climbers, we enjoy skiing and a couple of other things.
Munir Haque: [00:11:31] When I first met you, I started talking a little bit about governance, and one of the comments you made was, often governance can be restrictive. But in your experience it can be very liberating, it can really help drive growth. Before we get into it, when you were talking about that, what was your definition of governance? Governance can be a number of different things. So as we start off the conversation, we have a baseline of what you're defining as governance.
Gareth Gregory: [00:12:06] I've given this a lot of thought over 20 years. The essence of it is that it's very much an enabler to future growth. That's our inherent definition around governance within our company. It's that fundamental enabler that allows us to grow without a disaster later on. A great analogy around this is just having a look at something very simple, like an ERP system, enterprise resource management type of structure. We've seen disasters in other companies where they've grown exponentially, they've had 15 different platforms running if not more. They get to this exponential level of growth, and they've basically got nothing because they don't have backend systems in place, they don't have those fundamentals in place. Governance as an enabler for us is so important. We are in a phase of exponential growth, but we don't want to get to point B or point C and realize that we can't manage it. So that's how we view governance from an entrepreneurial standpoint now for the North American market.
Munir Haque: [00:13:07] So it's a process of you making your business decisions and oversight? You're talking about governance from a board of director perspective, or just in terms of how as an entrepreneurial company you structure your decisions?
Gareth Gregory: [00:13:25] We're not stifled from an extensive or broad board just yet. I think we have a very niche and very quick decision making process within ESSNA. But that is changing now with our special purpose vehicles. We're funding up to $100 million USD per vehicle. Of course, we have a couple of stakeholders around the table, and that forms a decision making structure that's not just a management decision anymore. But of course, you've got some pretty informed stakeholders that have very specific objectives. When we talk about stifling business and stifling decision making processes, we've got to be very careful that we don't slip into a traditional definition and execution of governance, which is extremely risky. When we think about this notion of governance and how we manage it moving forward, it's really about balancing the competing interests and risk management all the time. By doing that, we don't stifle ourselves. It's all very real, very practical and very much implementable as we move forward as well as measurable.
Gareth Gregory: [00:14:36] A couple of other aspects that we focus on is transparency reporting and the technology associated with that. Getting back to the ERP system, ability to report financially as well, that is also of utmost importance. Again, an enabler to that notion around future growth. Then the other aspects really have to do with shareholder activism, in terms of how we keep shareholders in check. The only way you do that is by complete transparency and everyone knowing what you're doing and where you're heading. That's our thinking around governance as to how to make that practical and not get caught in that rut or that circle in terms of personal agendas and with very little and limiting growth. Management still needs to be steering that horse, and the governance process around you needs to manage the risk that may be coming up, in terms of scenarios.
Munir Haque: [00:15:39] Fair enough. I was going to ask you who you are reporting to, but you are reporting to shareholders, management.
Gareth Gregory: [00:15:49] It depends on what level, most of the week I report to my wife. But on a serious note, I very much make the decisions for our North American rollout now. That's both Canada as well as the US. When we have a look at our special purpose vehicles, we have both private equity and debt finance. We've got a couple of key decision makers in actually making that funding available. I've obviously got a very serious and very respectful reporting line there. As we develop and grow, we mustn't forget about governmental influence and industry influence, both in terms of oil and gas in Alberta, just getting back to that point, the way we interact with both provincial and federal government, and of course what's happening down in the US now. Texas is a very interesting geography, it's one of the largest economies in the world. Just think about the reporting obligations sitting within that environment. It's very much having respect for all the stakeholders around you, and it is about continuous reporting. As much as we make very innovative decisions, and we use governance to obviously keep that in check. We're all accountable to somebody somewhere along the way.
Munir Haque: [00:17:06] You want to talk a little bit more about your special purpose vehicles? I'm interested to know who are the potential end users of the hydrogen that you're producing and what form are they taking it in?
Gareth Gregory: [00:17:19] The special purpose vehicle is something that we've become quite accustomed to. I think a better analogy for it is possibly a ring fence project, but a ring fence project where you've got 3 to 5 projects sitting within that portfolio. The other important thing to understand is how we structure SPVs has to do with the decentralized nature of our business. I think quite some time ago, we saw the writing on the wall in terms of avoiding and staying away from large, centralized hydrogen-generating conglomerates at a specific address. I think those facilities are just setting themselves up for disaster. You see the traditional hydrogen players now think they're under a bit of pressure, and it's purely based on our ability to develop decentralization in a relatively short period of time. Now, that special purpose vehicle is a big enabler, once again, to making that reality come true. That special purpose vehicle, I guess another good analogy may be, the automotive industry that was a bit stifled by very traditional old thinking. You had your major brands within North America, and you have a look at how those major brands excluded new innovative entrants within that market. To get around that, you just do it yourselves.
Gareth Gregory: [00:18:39] That's the decision that we've made. We're not dependent on anybody saying to us, yes you can or no you can't. We respect everybody's input, but we're ultimately going to be the largest decentralized hydrogen generator within North America within the next 60 months. That's purely based on the fact that we understand decentralization. Africa was a very good instructional learning curve for me in understanding what works and what doesn't in terms of decentralization and the benefits and the risks associated with it. But most importantly is that SPVs, again an enabler that allows us to pursue decentralization across North America, and the way we structure it is extremely unique. We almost report like a publicly listed company at that level, but privatized. We take all the public listing fluff out of it, but the reality is any one of our investors knows what's going on every single day of the year through the way and how we communicate, and that SPV enables that. We've got a target audience of investors that have trusted us, and we've got a specific delivery execution mandate associated with that, that we share upfront. That's ultimately the enabler to achieving that investment that allows us to move forward across the North American market.
Munir Haque: [00:19:56] You said right now you're a private company, you do reporting as if you were a public company, almost. Is that something that you are seeing or do you anticipate going public at some point?
Gareth Gregory: [00:20:08] The points that you raise there circle back to governance as an enabler, to future growth. Then you got this opportunity, which is potentially a public sector listing. My personal ambitions for this company and our other business interests is to remain private. That may change, never say never. It's very interesting to see what we're planning to do now in North America. It may require a public listing of some sort somewhere along the line, but I think we've got enough credibility and enough history to have some pretty serious investors on board. The debt finance side is really starting to become pretty interesting. Banking institutions we thought would have taken a lot longer are engaging with us extremely proactively now. We've got some very senior executives flying into Calgary to come and meet with us, discuss our plans and how we're moving forward from a debt finance point of view. But again, it all comes back to governance and the way that you obviously manage it. Now, the challenges with governance comes back to people again, ironically, and just like business, you're not going to deliver a successful business unless you've got the right combination of people around you to obviously make that work. I would say 95% of the governance failures actually have to do with boards and the people that are sitting on those boards that are supposed to be overseeing governance. Some interesting statistics that I recapped on coming into this discussion today, it has to do with the conference board data. Just to give you a perspective, the 40-50 year old board representatives that focus on governance, etc., have actually declined over the last 3 to 5 years.
Gareth Gregory: [00:21:58] The increase between the ages of 66 and 70 is actually alarming, because if you ever think about that generational split in terms of understanding where things are heading, I think part of the reason that governance fails is that you have such a historic, out of date perspective as to what it actually means. It's under 40 year olds sitting on boards making decisions, only 0.3%. You've got to get real in terms of innovation, how quickly things are adapting and moving. I meet people that sit on boards probably every week, and I can honestly say I would lose sleep if 95% of them sat on our board. Because it just seems a very detached perception of reality. Another prime example, you've just got to have a look at our hydrogen conferences, there's a lot of work to be done around those. We're putting together our own hydrogen symposium now to get around that, because the hydrogen conferences add very little value and they're very flat. These are the same people that are sitting on boards advising in terms of governance around hydrogen, if that is the particular topic. But they still discuss the colors of hydrogen, which is about a decade outdated. No one's actually produced that molecule, which is alarming. I'm quite passionate about this, having the right people around the right table. But again, 95% of the challenges in terms of governance have to do with people that are detached from the reality that they're supposed to be advising on.
Munir Haque: [00:24:44] Just comparing it to other industries, like to Alberta oil and gas, how would you compare your governance structure to what a typical oil and gas, or a startup that is similar in size to yours, is?
Gareth Gregory: [00:25:02] Oil and gas has three tiers to it, and it's got nothing to do with upstream midstream or downstream of that in terms of refining. It's got to do with the mindset of boards and executives and founders of those particular companies. If you look at the traditional oil and gas space, I think for the most part it's probably up for a very rude awakening as we move forward. Because it's very traditional, stuck in its old ways, it's like old mining groups within Africa, unable to move relatively quickly and a little bit stifled. But in saying that, we've got these other tiers of oil and gas within Alberta, and in Calgary as well, which are very dynamic. Those are the companies that we're engaging with and we are working with. In terms of understanding how we take hydrogen programs forward, how we shift that natural gas problem, which is a cyclability issue, in terms of booms and busts, and just not being able to produce a gigajoule of natural gas that's within a reasonable cost figure, to make at least some margin out of that. Those governance structures, in terms of companies that we work with that see the changing market and the changing environment, you don't need to convince any oil and gas company based in North Dakota or Salt Lake City or Amarillo in Texas, as to the benefits of diversifying and adopting hydrogen. We have more meetings lined up now than what we have days in the year in 2025 to do just that. We're finding, at certain levels within the Alberta oil and gas sector, there is this dynamic nature that's going, we've got to start shifting.
Gareth Gregory: [00:26:51] Everyone contracts us in confidentiality agreements up to our eyeballs, so no one's doing hydrogen pilots, but there's actually quite a few, in terms of working out how they're going to operate within this new era of the oil and gas sector around a hydrogen based molecule. Those governance structures within those companies are actually quite aligned to what we subscribe to because it, of course, comes back to risk management. It comes back to making sure that any decisions that are made are for the benefit of the organization moving forward and the sustainability of that, as opposed to some long-in-the-tooth investors in a particular oil and gas sector that just want to leave things as it is. There's a tier of oil and gas within Alberta, within Calgary, which is extremely dynamic. Those are the companies that we aligned with. We try to avoid companies that are somewhat dated in terms of their perception of what's happening in the oil and gas outlook. It's 'pie in the sky' to think that oil and gas has a smooth ride moving forward. It's going to take a lot of dynamic approach, dynamic nature, and there are some companies embracing that. We are somewhat selective, as oil and gas companies are today, as to who we work with, and that's aligned to the way that we see the market changing and moving forward. So there's alignment there, and naturally the governance follows. No one wants to head into a bad project, and that comes down to risk management associated with those particular relationships.
Munir Haque: [00:28:32] Shifting a little bit to governance as a regulatory, with emerging technology there'll be some changes in regulations as you move forward. Who is it that is doing the regulations on this? Is it the provincial government? Is it the federal government combination of the two? You said you're in constant communication with them, but does that help drive the regulatory framework?
Gareth Gregory: [00:29:00] A great question that you're asking, and in terms of regulation, it's still very much early days. If you consider the energy regulator, no matter where you are in the states from a state level or provincially, hydrogen in itself, and I think that is what you're referring to, is governed in different pieces and forms. If you think about it this way, if you're producing a hydrogen molecule via electrolysis, water is a component of that, and via steam methane reforming, is a component of that as well, so you would have some form of influence around that. That's the reason that it's a little bit segmented in terms of regulation today, is that we are applying a yester-years regulation, which is the right timing at this point in time. We're doing it in different pieces just to try and get a handle on it. But what affects us the most, and what impacts us most, is actually provincial requirements. Within Alberta we've got ABSA, and that's the body that oversees pressure vessels, fittings, fixtures and so forth.
Gareth Gregory: [00:30:12] That is a body that we need certification from to operate. In addition to that, you've either got CSA, and you would have the CRN which is the Canadian registration number associated. Those aspects in itself in terms of regulation, the governance around the sector, automatically play a role from day one. There's no significant gaps there. I think all that's going to happen is that things are going to get more refined and far more structured. I think where there is more focus required today is the way that development funds are spent, especially in Alberta, in terms of allocation of where those funds go. We've built three independent models now in terms of methane pyrolysis. We don't know how you would ever get a company within that space commercially viable and bankable. That must have gone through a governance/regulatory process in terms of the allocation of funding. The funding is still flowing to these organizations, although it's a bit like the wind industry, you would never be able to continue operating without a continuous subsidy. You've really got to look at the essence of it. Carbon black always becomes a big discussion of these funding initiatives, but ask any one of those companies as to the grade or that focus area of carbon black that they're going to be pursuing over the next 10, 15, 20 years. I don't think any one of those companies would be able to give you a straight answer.
Gareth Gregory: [00:31:53] Traditionally, just to summarize on that, there are frameworks in place that already work. Because we're not the first energy orientated business to be operating. The technology in itself, be it hydrogen or not, doesn't matter. There's a framework that is there. What is important is in the way that the dollar is spent for the development. Very proudly I can say today we're not reliant on $1 of subsidies or grants or anything like that, and we chose not to due to the extensive application process. But I think that will change and evolve as time moves forward. I think there will be better allocation, especially around hydrogen, as to where that funding is being spent, and that's where that focus area is going to be. That's a personal perspective, it's personal experience within the market, but I think there's sufficient framework in place to keep a hydrogen end user safe, in terms of regulation through that entire value chain in the use of that multi-purpose valuable hydrogen molecule.
Munir Haque: [00:33:06] Do you work together with other similar companies when dealing with regulatory bodies? Do you have a lobby group or a professional organization that you work with?
Gareth Gregory: [00:33:19] We work dynamically from an entrepreneurial standpoint in terms of the rollout of hydrogen. There's different stakeholders and value propositions from different entities and individuals. Within that ambit of the space that we're active in, and how we operate in the decentralized nature, certainly there's no doubt about that. And that's at different levels. We freely provide our experiences and information into the public sector space that may add some value in terms of decisions that have been made and where that's heading. We do avoid the noise within the market, and as you can appreciate, hydrogen is extremely topical. There's an extensive amount of noise within the market, so we stay away from those groups. We stay away from the vast majority of hydrogen conferences as that is 99% noise and very little practicality. A good analogy there is, if we sat in that room, and the chairman of the conference said, anyone that's produced the molecule hydrogen in the last ten years, can you please put up your hand? I think in Alberta you might have 4 or 5 companies, we'd be one of them. That's how limited that is. I think we're having very constructive discussions. I think the oil and gas sector has been very supportive of some of our steps and the meetings that we're having with both provincial governments at some level as well as federal, and just understanding where that's currently heading. We maybe do it a bit differently, we maybe don't do lobbying in the traditional sense, but we do it in a very dynamic, entrepreneurial way to make sure that there's good for the industry today, and practically, we're not galloping down a path into a space where it would actually be limiting implementation as opposed to promoting it. So we do, but we do it a bit differently. We do it very practically, and we do it in a way that we can measure it. Yes, it's a very important piece of the sector today.
Munir Haque: [00:35:21] What do you see as the future of hydrogen in Alberta, in North America? Everybody in every household or in every driveway? What do you see?
Gareth Gregory: [00:35:34] We don't even entertain the hydrogen pipeline discussion because that's fundamentally new infrastructure that is required. There's a couple of innovative technologies in terms of lining. There's a very innovative company back in South Africa that has run a number of pilots now in terms of lining the inside of existing pipelines, but you can just imagine the cost associated with that. Are you going to have a network of pipeline hydrogen in the next 20 years? I'd say no. I think anybody that's investing in a centralized conglomerate for the production of hydrogen is going to have a very rude awakening in terms of trying to distribute that molecule, because they're going to be back on rubber on the road, and that's not extremely complimentary at all. That is the first thing, the second aspect is that we've really banked our dollar. Remember it's not a subsidy or grant, our own dollar in terms of decentralization. That blue sky that you talk about, I think we rather refer to ground reality in terms of what's happening. We look at our uptake now, we look at the amount of investment that we're starting to secure. If you look at our roll out ambitions across North America, it's all about decentralization. The other very important component to that is purification. I know of at least one very well known internationally owned hydrogen company, that every one out of three deliveries is off hydrogen fuel cell specification.
Gareth Gregory: [00:37:06] That is alarming. Purification is going to play a significant role. I'm very happy with the development of our proprietary purification solutions that we have. I think that has already been demonstrated at a level within Alberta, and we continue to do that across North America. The purification aspect is of utmost importance. Then we look at the application of hydrogen. To get households converted over, it's a tricky process because it's not just about getting the molecule to that household, it's about changing all your appliances because there's no alignment in terms of the risks around hydrogen induced cracking. The hydrogen molecule is extremely small and it gets into the most finite nooks and crannies. It actually accelerates that technical cracking reality that you're obviously going to experience. We see a continued uptake in industrial applications, so we're slowly but surely clawing into that traditional market 24 hours a day. We see the innovation of new sectors that we are approaching, and we're doing a lot of R&D with those sectors in terms of the application of that highly valuable hydrogen molecule. Then we look at transportation. I never thought we would even focus on transportation within my first five years in North America.
Gareth Gregory: [00:38:34] The opportunities there, provided you're willing to put in the hours. The access to the market is there, provided you deliver an honest deliverable in terms of purity, time frames. And most importantly, the hydrogen market you've always got to remember is a component of the broader energy industry and that energy mix. It's not standalone. With our energy modeling and planning experience, we're always cognizant about that. That it's a piece of the solution, and it's not the golden bullet. I think that's where a lot of misunderstanding happens within the market. So that's what we foresee in terms of the blue sky. We're no longer dreaming about it, we're actually doing it. I'm personally on site once every two weeks at least, and I really enjoy that side of the business. That's where we started, and that will obviously continue as we develop and we move forward. 2025 is a big year for us in terms of building commission.
Munir Haque: [00:39:55] You said you're often out on site. I was looking out the window when you pulled up, I saw you drive a big truck, but I assume it's not hydrogen powered. Before we tie things up, is there anything else that you want to tell our listeners?
Gareth Gregory: [00:40:12] Hydrogen is a journey. There's a direct relationship between hydrogen and decarbonization, if it's done correctly. Carbon credits you've got to view as a bonus. We're active in that space, both compliance as well as voluntary. But that is very much a bonus. If you're going to get your business model to work and your bank ability to work in the hydrogen sector, you better do it without grants and subsidies and without carbon credit revenue. Because that's fluctuating as quickly as what the grants and subsidies do. And trust in the space. Hydrogen molecules have been in industry for 80+ years at least. It's an extremely useful molecule. The technology, in terms of safety around storage of hydrogen, is phenomenal today. There's no significant risk factors associated with it that cannot be managed. The last point I'd like to mention is that we really need industry involvement with us. We've got both the economic funding, we've got the know-how, and we've got the ability to engage with new types of industry to support them along this journey. Like I've always said, it's not going to be a wind turbine or a wind farm. We think the last commercially available wind turbine will be manufactured within the next ten years. That's the demise that the industry is obviously experiencing. But hydrogen is absolutely phenomenal, and we have that ability to not only join those dots both in terms of the energy model, but actually deliver a piloted facility to start off within six months to prove that implementation and measure that accordingly.
Gareth Gregory: [00:41:51] We had to work with industry, we had to work with the government, we had to work with the provincial government in Canada, we had to work across the United States. The legacy we want to leave is that we've made that hydrogen molecule commercially available in every corner of this North American continent. That's what we're focused on, we're extremely passionate about it and we've got a full open door policy. We run our hydrogen symposium which I believe, and our team believes, is going to be the most phenomenal hydrogen conference on the 28th. That's going to be at the Calgary Petroleum Club. That's an invite only event, but we've got some serious hydrogen stakeholders around the table. We've got US/Canadian banks as well. What we're trying to do here, we're trying to bring the practicality back into conferences, and that's what is severely needed now. What is actually happening on the ground in terms of hydrogen and what is that actual implementation look like? That's possibly the most passionate focus area I can leave with you in terms of what we'd like to achieve. We'd like to see this industry around us as well, flourishing and growing at exponential rates. Again, we are confident that 2025 is that year of that initiation and the catalyst.
Munir Haque: [00:43:19] Thanks a lot for all the energy you brought to the conversation here today. Admittedly, some of it has gone over my head, but when I edit it I'll get to hear it all again. Once again, thank you for coming and opening my eyes to something that I had very little information on. Presumably, the information will start flowing a lot more in the near future. The last bit is if somebody wants to find out more about you or your organization, company, where can they find out more about it?
Gareth Gregory: [00:43:51] We've got a significant shift in our online profile that's happening now in February 2025. That's both for Energy Security Services North America, ESSNA, as well as 59Hydrogen. To find us, it's as simple as putting my name into Google, Gareth Gregory and hydrogen. You'll find 15 different ways to contact us. Most importantly, this new online access that we're providing, we're launching now in February, will have sufficient technical information and commercial information, but we believe this is a step to revolutionizing hydrogen uptake. We're not short of access or contact within the open market. Please look us up online and we respond the same day. Feel free to give us a call 24 hours a day, it's an open door policy.
Munir Haque: [00:44:47] Thank you again for joining us today.
Gareth Gregory: [00:44:50] Likewise. Thank you very much, Munir. A great privilege being here and thank you very much for your time.
Munir Haque: [00:44:55] Thanks everyone for listening to The Boardroom 180 Podcast. You can learn more about me and Action Edge Executive Development on our website at aeednow.com. Fill out the form if you want me to reach out to you, or if you have any thoughts for future subjects or guests on the podcast. We also have a free board self-evaluation that will be linked on our website. You and your board can fill this out either individually or together, and it gives you a bit of a quick temperature check on how your board health is. As always, don't forget to hit like and subscribe to The Boardroom 180 Podcast, it helps us grow and bring more governance insights. We're recording from the Pushysix Studios in Calgary, Alberta, with production assistance from Astronomic Audio. You can find their info and the links to the AEX forums in the show notes. We've come full circle to conclude this episode of The Boardroom 180 Podcast. Goodbye, and good governance.