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Merriam-Webster’s dictionary defines “side by side” as the state “of existing beside one another” and “of being in the same place, time, or circumstance." What does it mean for rural and urban communities to live side by side? Join University of Minnesota Extension staff as we explore the interdependent relationship of rural and urban spaces and why this necessary and complex relationship matters.
Oh, we ain't got a barrel of money. Maybe we're ragged and funny, but we'll travel along singing a song side by side.
Julie Tesch:The longer we do this, the more I am really impressed with really truly how connected inner city urban communities and rural communities really do have similar issues. They just live in different areas, and there's different ways of going about how you solve those problems.
Jake Loesch:One of the shared similarities is just this kind of being misunderstood, right, by by the other side or by other people. It's sort of a a normal human thing to be a little bit skeptical of what we don't know. But that's why this is so important, because we all misunderstand or don't fully comprehend certain things.
Ellen Wolter:That's Julie Tesh, president of the Center For Rural Policy and Development, and Jake Lausch, Executive Director of Citizens League. They are both talking about the interconnected series their organizations created in 2020. The interconnected series brings urban and rural stakeholders, policymakers and community members together to talk about issues they have in common. And it turns out that rural and urban communities have a lot of issues in common. Interconnected discussions have ranged from the lack of childcare affordability and availability, to mental health, suicide, to affordable housing, and as they just described, feeling misunderstood.
Ellen Wolter:Julie and Jake join me for a conversation about the interconnected series and how it is one of the few dialogues that brings rural and urban communities together to tackle shared challenges. They talked about what they've learned along the way, and how our preconceived notions of each other can get in the way of solving our most pressing challenges. This is Ellen Wolter from the University of Minnesota Extension, and this is the Side by Side podcast.
Ellen Wolter:Julie and Jake, it is such a pleasure to have you on today. I am so excited to talk about interconnected, one of the series that I think has really helped us to think more about rural and urban, and why we need each other. So thanks so much for joining side by side.
Jake Loesch:It's great to be here. Thank you.
Julie Tesch:Thanks for having us.
Ellen Wolter:So we're just gonna start off with a a very easy question. Julie, could you just share a little bit about the Center For Rural Policy and Development and the work that you do?
Julie Tesch:Sure. The Center For Rural Policy and Development is a nonprofit nonpartisan organization that was created in 1997 and created by the state of Minnesota because there was a was and kind of continues to be a lack of information on policy about rural Minnesota. And so what we do is we take those complex issues for policy, and we come at it from a rural lens. And we provide that lens and those reports to legislators. Our audience has increased over the years to include more county commissioners, city council members, economic development coordinators, and the like.
Julie Tesch:But our research specifically looks at topics important to rural with that lens.
Ellen Wolter:Great. Thanks, Julie. And, Jake, tell us about Citizens League.
Jake Loesch:Yeah. Absolutely. So Citizens League, also a nonpartisan, nonprofit organization. We've been around since 1952, so more than 72 years, and I think our work really focuses on kind of 2 things, really empowering people to both be civically engaged and take an active role in the the policy making process. We're based out of Saint Paul, but really try to work statewide.
Jake Loesch:I mean, many of the solutions and policy challenges we face are not unique to any one community. And so I think over the over the 72 plus years of our history, we've been able to work on a lot of really fascinating topics. It was a citizens league report in the late 19 fifties that led to the eventual creation of the Metropolitan Council, and we've done work on everything from charter schools and transportation, minimum wage, public safety, caregiving across the spectrum, you name it. I think our work is really driven by, you know, a belief that public policy happens everywhere and that the best solutions are when, diverse perspectives and voices come together to find those solutions. And that really, I think for us, also includes ensuring that, the people who are most impacted by the outcomes are often historically underrepresented or under served communities have a seat at the table and are part of those those solutions.
Jake Loesch:We also, in the last 10 years, about 9 years now, have been operating the capital pathways internship program, which connects BIPOC college students directly with host organizations, to get firsthand experience at the Minnesota legislature and really help create a representative democracy that reflects the broad and diverse communities across the state of Minnesota. And so I think it's just been it's been a great partnership with the Center For Rural Policy Development to take advantage of both of our audiences and the work that we do to really highlight the challenges and, opportunities across the state.
Ellen Wolter:Yeah. Thanks. Thanks, Jake. Yeah. I mean, there are so many challenges, right, that rural and urban communities are facing.
Ellen Wolter:So many similar challenges that I think people are sometimes surprised to to learn that. You know, there's often this understanding, not always, but often that rural is the sort of separate place. Urban is the separate place, and there are very different challenges. But in reality, yeah, there's a lot of similar challenges that these areas are facing. So tell me a little bit about the interconnected series and and how this idea came about.
Julie Tesch:Yeah. So this idea came about a few years ago. I believe it was, oh, gosh, right before COVID. And, I've been with the center for 6 years now, And I have lived, equal times in rural and in urban. And when I moved back to Minnesota here 7 years ago from Washington, DC, I knew Citizens League.
Julie Tesch:I had participated in some of their events before and I and really admired their work. And so just thinking outside the box of, like, gosh, I wonder who we could talk with or partner with to talk about these issues and talk about how we have a lot more in common than we think. I was driving one day, and it came to me. And at the time, the executive director of Citizens League was, Kahua. And so I had just met her and Amanda Kunjbharari and a couple others and floated this idea past them.
Julie Tesch:I'm like, hey. What what do we think about this? We could partner on this. You're looking to get active more statewide. We're looking to build partnerships urban.
Julie Tesch:And it just kind of blossomed from there. And because we both both organizations thought it was a great idea. And, yeah, we just moved from there because, like you said, Ellen, the midge I would say a large majority of the issues in rural and urban that people think are specific to each area are actually they're interconnected. They really, really are. And so when you're talking about disparities in health or disparities in education in the very inner cities and in the rural areas, those are actually quite similar.
Julie Tesch:The difference comes in the nuance of how we do policy. And that's where that's where we come in. And we like to talk about what's it like living in Minneapolis and your health care access, or what's it like for health care access in rural Minnesota. So it all came out of those conversations, and it just kind of evolved from there.
Ellen Wolter:What are some of the topics that you've covered so far?
Jake Loesch:Yeah. Well, I think recently, yeah, we've talked about workforce, housing, mental health, and suicide epidemic, childcare. There's been a lot of topics, and I think there's there's a lot more that we're we're really excited to expand on.
Julie Tesch:Yeah. I feel like we've just touched the tip of the iceberg. You know, we're we've we've got the big topics, but now I think we can get a little more into the weeds, I guess.
Jake Loesch:It feels like every one of our conversations, it's like we we we don't want it to end. Right? We we come up on this hour, hour and a half every time we have a conversation, and it's like there are still more questions. There's still more that we love to talk about. And I think just hearing those conversations flourish and expand and, you know, people who tune in, we usually have well over a 100 participants listening in on every conversation, which is great to know that there's an audience that's engaged and looking for this information.
Jake Loesch:But I think, you know, our hope is that it leaves people with with more kind of, maybe maybe questions about what else they can learn, but a good understanding too of what what another community is facing and and how that might all, you know, to bring us back to the name, be interconnected with the challenges we're facing in our own communities.
Ellen Wolter:Mhmm. What are some of the reasons that you chose the topics that you did?
Julie Tesch:Originally, the topics that we chose were based more around our research reports that were coming out so that we could have that data and that research to go off of. It's evolved now. We don't always have a research report tied to it. And so thinking about, what, on housing, we don't have a specific report on that, but but we know it is an issue in urban and rural areas. And there are some potential laws going through the state level that could affect both areas very differently.
Julie Tesch:And so we can explore what that looks like and how the potential law would affect urban and rural. And it's good and bad on both. And so we we try to you know, sometimes we have our research aligned with it, but it's more often than not trying to find those topics that we both can come together on.
Jake Loesch:Yeah. And I think Julie is exactly right. Often driven by legislative conversations too. We're in the middle of a legislative session right now. Lawmakers are having some some pretty significant discussions about reforms.
Jake Loesch:There are some really big conversations happening right now, and and how do we address the housing challenges that the state of Minnesota faces. Again, that is a shared challenge no matter what community you find yourself in, but the solutions are different and what different communities need might be different. And I think really being able to shine a spotlight on on some of those things, whether it's through research the center has done that we can build off of or another conversation that just feels like it's bubbling up. Right? That people are talking about and saying this is something we've got to sort through and figure out that feels kind of like exactly what we're looking for for these topics.
Ellen Wolter:We started this conversation talking a little bit about the similarities across rural and urban, and the ways in which folks don't always know that there are these similarities across rural and urban. What are some of the misperceptions, stereotypes that exist about rural and urban areas? What are some of those sort of mental models that that folks are stuck with? And, Julie, I'll start with you on on rural.
Julie Tesch:Oh, boy. That's a loaded question. I I I hesitate to, you know, put out stereotypes and whatever, but having lived both equally in rural and urban in my life, I think that rural is poor, uneducated, I guess backwards. That those are those are the 3 things that come to mind for me that I've the the tropes that I've heard over time. And sure, there are parts of the population that are poorly educated.
Julie Tesch:We they don't have access to education. They don't you know, there's an addiction problem, but that's all over. And so I always like to bring up to people that, yes, we have there are we do have problems, but all of society has problems, and it's just a small part. You know, saying that, oh, everyone in rural America is uneducated and on meth or opioids is just simply not true. I I think we get lazy in our thinking when we say that all rural, all urban, or just urban rural, people are always like this.
Julie Tesch:And so I know I have to catch myself sometimes too with dealing with either rural or urban and like, oh, all people are this way. Or an example I hear quite a bit that I I try to stop in its tracks is, living here in rural Minnesota, people are like, well, if you live in Minneapolis, you're gonna get shot. And it's like, seriously? You know? And so it it's it's just trying to help people realize, like, okay.
Julie Tesch:Let's let's talk about this.
Jake Loesch:Yeah. I mean, I think it's just it's really easy for all of us, human beings, human nature, right, kind of default to an us versus them mentality. It's it's not always easy to understand what you don't know, and it's it's often easier to think about topics in black and white or, you know, this or that or our people versus other people, because it sort of creates a natural boundary or community. Right? Like, I know these people.
Jake Loesch:I know this group. I know this life. I don't understand that. And so often, I don't understand that becomes skepticism or fear or confusion about another person's choices or another community's needs or or lives. You know, I don't always think it's it's not intentional most of the time.
Jake Loesch:Right? We're not trying to sort of cast dispersions on another group of people or another way of life, But it it's understandable, right, that we don't necessarily understand. Right? I've lived most of my life in urban or suburban communities, and that comes with it, you know, my own biases and and things about how I live and and what I want and what I need or what my family does. That's not gonna be the same for somebody else.
Jake Loesch:And I don't necessarily need to, you know, understand or wanna make the same decisions about where I choose to live or raise a family or work as somebody else. But to sort of approach it with that kind of understanding and acknowledgment that, you know, I wanna know more about why Julie chooses to live where she lives. I wanna know more about that community and their needs. You know, you hear people, why would anyone ever wanna live in a big city, or why would anyone wanna live in a small town or rural community? Well, the answer is there's lots of great reasons for both those things.
Jake Loesch:And we, as a state, have a you know, we have population centers. We have urban communities, but even those are different. Right? Rochester and Saint Cloud and Minneapolis, the Twin Cities, they're urban population centers, but they're different just like rural Minnesota and Greater Minnesota can't be clumped into one large group. Right?
Jake Loesch:The needs of communities and and agriculture in Southern Minnesota are very different than the needs of a of a small town or or, you know, tribal reservation in Northern Minnesota. Right? That understanding, I think, that when Minneapolis thrives, Mahtomedi and Mylan thrive. And I think that there are a lot of that understanding of the interconnected nature of our communities. Right?
Jake Loesch:No no one community exists on its own. We all depend on each other. And I think any way that we can shine a light on that and help people understand a little bit more about somebody else's life, we're all better for it. Mhmm.
Ellen Wolter:What are ways that you feel the interconnected series has has worked to dispel, you know, stereotypes and, myths that folks often hear about rural and urban, those those common narratives that we often hear in the media. What are what's what are some ways that interconnected has helped to dispel some of those myths?
Julie Tesch:I think just bringing the topic to the forefront, I think of, we've done a couple childcare discussions, but the first one that we did, we had around 200 participants online. And I don't know the demographics, but I would say it was probably 50% rural, 50% urban because we try really hard when we put our panels together to have equal representation from an urban and a rural audience. And then, you know, diversity within there. What what do these groups look like? And so is it you know, on this one, I'm thinking of I think it was in our first season.
Julie Tesch:We were talking about childcare, and we had someone from the Lower Sioux Reservation on talking about childcare there and what that looks like. And then we had, you know, a in home provider in rural, and we had a center provider in urban. And so I think it's just really being thoughtful about who we have on the panel. You know, first we introduce the research if we have some, but it's it's laying it out. And another one I think of is we did one on healthcare access.
Julie Tesch:And what access looks like in Minneapolis Saint Paul is very different out here in Waseca, Minnesota. And I remember, one of the panelists afterwards mentioned to me, she's like, I had no clue that in rural Minnesota, transportation is the largest barrier to health care. She's like, I never thought of that because in a in an urban center, you typically might have public transportation or you have Uber, Lyft, or whatever. Where in rural, it driving a half hour is you know, that that could be life and death. So we we try to be very thoughtful about who we have on the panel to discuss that and and just help talk about the topics.
Jake Loesch:Mhmm. Yeah. I would say that, you know, I I think a lot about the recent childcare conversations that we've had and having, you know, a a family provider from Morris and a a center provider from Minneapolis sharing the differences between their experiences. And actually, for us at Citizens League, that led to even more conversations. We have some organizational members and companies that we work with, who support our work.
Jake Loesch:And, you know, after the Child Care Interconnected conversation we had, one of our member companies reached out and said, we'd really like to bring this same conversation to our staff. So, actually, just yesterday, we did basically a replica with almost the exact same panel, specifically for more than a 100 employees of of one of our organizational members. And many of them aren't people with children. They live across the state. But to sort of highlight not only why that issue matters and and is important in some of the real challenges faced by different communities and different child care providers and families, but also even for folks who might not be a part of you know, may not have children or or their children are older, so they went through this process at a different time.
Jake Loesch:What does it look like now, and what challenges are people facing as they navigate, you know, the basics of, like, how can I work and take care of my family, but also have someone take care of my children and and all of the things that parents and young families juggle when it comes to that? It was really fascinating discussion, but I think seeing something that started as, you know, reports the center has done that we're able to bring to a larger audience and then connect that even further, to more folks really just expands that reach and the opportunity for people to to learn and understand a little bit more.
Ellen Wolter:Yeah. Those ripples keep going moving out, moving out. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks, Jay.
Ellen Wolter:Yeah. What are some of the surprises that you've taken away from from these conversations? Are there things that you learned, that you didn't know before? And, Julie, you know, you mentioned that there was a person who experienced that in learning about transportation barriers in rural. But what about for the both of you?
Ellen Wolter:Are there any surprises that you thought, oh my gosh, I I just didn't realize that, or I didn't see the interconnectedness of rural and urban until we had this conversation?
Jake Loesch:For me, one of the the I've only been in my role with with, Citizens League as executive director for about 7 months, so I'm thinking more about some of the more recent conversations that we've had. But I'm so grateful for the center's research, and I think some of that has really helped highlight things for me that, you know, I I probably knew. I I try and stay relatively informed and close to what's going on in the legislative session and challenges. And but I think the recent, report that that the center put out on on mental health and and deaths of despair and suicide rates, These are real, real serious and fundamental challenges to the health of of our communities and to young people, and it's just data that I wasn't aware of or didn't fully understand. And so to have a partner like the center and Julie's team working to really shine a spotlight on that and and come up with, you know, recommendations and solutions and things that we can do to support people who might be in those stages of crisis, that's such important work.
Jake Loesch:And I I I just didn't fully understand. Right? And so I think it's not maybe not necessarily a a surprise, but just a deeper understanding and knowledge of what's going on, really helps you kind of think about what can I do to to impact it or to advocate for any sort of solution?
Ellen Wolter:For you, Jake, living in an urban area, what is the value of knowing that that's happening in rural spaces?
Jake Loesch:Yeah. That's a great question. Well, I mean, I think it it's not a problem that's you know, it's it's also a problem in in urban and suburban areas. But you you think about the you know, if if I knew someone or in my community was was experiencing a mental health crisis, I think about things like it would be, you know, in in a matter of minutes, there would probably be able to be emergency providers there to help somebody, or I have resources or places that I could take someone in my life that I I know they could get support and help that they need. And it kinda connects back to even that transportation conversation Julie was was talking about.
Jake Loesch:Someone who lives in a rural community far away from others might not be close to to support services or they don't exist or they're an hour away. Right? I mean, the time and the response and the way that we handle those things is very, very different. But we need to make sure that that infrastructure exists. So no matter where you live, or what challenges you might be facing, we, as a society, can help take care of you.
Jake Loesch:Right? I mean, that's we'd all want that, and I think it it does depend on on where you live and what's available and accessible to you to get the support that you need and, hopefully, in that case, ultimately save lives. You
Music (Jim Griswold):know? Mhmm. Mhmm.
Ellen Wolter:Yeah. Julie, what about you? Any surprises? Anything that you you didn't know, but you learned from these conversations?
Julie Tesch:I would say in the childcare realm, our research really, you know, focused on rural, but really talked about how there's an overall lack of childcare throughout the whole state, but how that looks different in urban and rural. And I really didn't appreciate that until the conversation because in rural areas, it's more in home care. And in urban areas, it's more center based care. And so when we're looking at rules and regulations and laws, you know, a blanket law affects urban and rural very differently. And so for me, that was a really an eye opening experience to talk about.
Julie Tesch:And also just talking about the business models of what in home childcare looks like compared to center childcare or what in home childcare in a rural area, even compared to in home childcare in an urban area. You know, there's economies of scale at work. And and what does that all look like? And I I like to think, and I know that our research and these conversations have helped some towns and cities be able to come up with some unique ideas, some public private partnerships on how to improve childcare in their area. So that's been really encouraging.
Julie Tesch:But I've I've learned a great deal about the childcare, struggles that both areas have. And I will say with COVID, that really just amped it up tenfold because people hadn't really thought about it as an economic development issue. But when you don't have childcare available and you're at home and you're locked down, what do you do? And so, it was tough living through that, I think, for a lot of people, but it also showed how important childcare is. So I just I just continually continually learn in that situation for both urban and rural.
Ellen Wolter:Mhmm. Yeah. That childcare piece is so important, and I sat in on your your childcare sessions as well, and they were fantastic. And, there were things I learned too. For example, folks had gone through training for employment, you know, ready to go, but they couldn't find childcare, and so they couldn't stay in the area.
Ellen Wolter:They're driving an hour to childcare, and that that just blew my mind in thinking about the impact then on the economy of those areas.
Jake Loesch:Right. I think that gets really to that point that, you know, whether childcare is available or not does not only matter if you have kids. Right? If you don't have children, but you live in an area where family childcare or centers aren't as available or aren't accessible or there aren't spots or you're on a waiting list for a year to get an infant into a room. Right?
Jake Loesch:I mean, we've heard stories about people have to get on wait list before they even find out that they're pregnant because infant care is so challenging sometimes. And infant care is, as we've been told by some of the experts we've talked with, always a money loser for centers and family childcare. That it's infant care with sort of the required, you know, ratios of teachers and adults to young peep to kids, that often childcare providers only make revenue off of kind of rooms of older kids or summer care or, you know, it's sort of that puzzle piece that they all have to put together in order to continue providing this service. And then you really get into the fact that these are often folks who are not making a lot of money. Childcare providers don't get paid a lot.
Jake Loesch:We've seen 100 of family childcare centers close in the state of Minnesota in recent years, and especially where, you know, oftentimes rural communities tend to rely on family or in home care more, that creates a real challenge. And if somebody might, you know, you might have a great candidate for a job, but you've got to convince them to move to another community and they're interested. But if they don't have that ability to to find childcare that's affordable and accessible to them, they're probably not going to be able to move to that job or take that opportunity no matter how much they want to, because there's all these other pieces of that that economic impact that matter as people are making decisions about where they're going to live and raise kids and work and play and have fun, you know?
Ellen Wolter:Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, there are so many, you know, manufacturing entities that support rural areas. Right? So if there's not childcare in rural areas, it does eventually impact and ripple into urban economies too.
Ellen Wolter:And I think sometimes that's that's overlooked.
Julie Tesch:Definitely. And I can, refer to an example of Hormel in Austin. They run 24 hours a day. They run a 3rd shift, and they knew that childcare was an issue and they've been working on it for quite some time. And they're starting their own childcare now for their employees.
Julie Tesch:And that is a benefit of working there. They're trying to make sure that that is not a hindrance for people because several of the people that work on the floor at Hormel, on the packing floor are immigrants, and they have large families. And I'm really hopeful that that model will work. But then Hormel also would love to open up childcare spots for the community as well. Because they understand that unless you have a thriving economy, your your town is not going to survive.
Julie Tesch:And so I guess I would just say to keep your eyes open for Hormel and Austin. And it's it's a good public private partnership that I think has a lot of promise.
Ellen Wolter:Yeah. That sounds like a great potential model for for other communities potentially to adopt. That's great. Yeah. Mhmm.
Ellen Wolter:Are there ways in which the interconnected series has made you think about ways that rural and urban spaces are connected that you didn't know before or didn't think about before?
Jake Loesch:That's a great question. I mean, I grew up in Minnesota. I've lived in Minnesota most of my whole life. I've had the privilege to travel around a lot of the states and and see a lot of communities. So I feel like, to some extent, I've always kind of understood and appreciated that that we all kind of come together to make the state what it is and have all the offerings we have and things that we find in urban communities are not in rural communities and likewise, and we all benefit from all of that.
Jake Loesch:But but I do I I have grown to even appreciate further just the you know, I I think little things for me. Right? I don't know that living in a rural community would ever work for my family. But I love hearing about why people do and challenging some of those assumptions. Right?
Jake Loesch:I think we often default to hearing about things like the brain drain and everyone wanting to you know, younger people moving to larger communities. But I think avoiding kind of making broad assumptions that that applies to everybody, that it doesn't go one way. It's not only one-sided that way. And and I think keeping those parts of the conversation front and center, maybe a little bit more nuanced, but really not sort of letting ourselves fall into that that trap of just assuming all of these communities have the same things or, you know, the same people or they're they're dying. Right?
Jake Loesch:Rural Minnesota is not dying. I'm sure Julie would would have lots of data to prove that point. But it it it's growing, and it's evolving, and it's thriving in many ways, but that looks different. And that's okay. Right?
Jake Loesch:There those differences are good, and we all benefit from them as long as we sort of approach it from challenging ourselves not to assume that just because somebody is lives in a different place or chose something different that they're our enemy. Right? That that's that we're not at war between urban and rural communities. In fact, we all really rely on each other to be successful. So
Ellen Wolter:Yeah. Thanks, Jake. What about you, Julie? Anything that you sort of are surprised about in terms of learning about ways in which rural and urban are interconnected?
Julie Tesch:I will say that the longer we do this, the more I am sup not surprised. I was surprised at first, but really impressed with really truly how connected urban, inner city urban communities, and rural communities really do have similar issues. There's similar discrepancies. You know, we hear about, Internet and broadband and how it's not great in rural areas. Well, there is are plenty of places in urban underserved areas that don't have access to good quality Internet as well.
Julie Tesch:You know, same for health care. Underserved populations are underserved populations. They just live in different areas and there's different ways of going about how you solve those problems. But I really truly believe that if we could just learn more from each other like, hey, we really are in this together, but it looks different. But let's talk.
Julie Tesch:Let's just talk about, hey, you know what? I I my kid lives out in the countryside, and they can't they're not able to participate in school when they have a snow day. Same for urban. I think when people just slow down and sit down a little bit, they would realize there's just so many more commonalities, and that's what I've come to learn as well. It's like, oh, wow.
Julie Tesch:There's just we have so much in common. But again, there's different ways of solving it for different populations. So for me, it's encouraging.
Jake Loesch:Yeah. I think even beyond the the policy solutions. Right? I mean, there you know, we all want safe and livable communities, and what does the workforce look like, and is housing available or trucking? Those are all things that each community is gonna have their own stories about.
Jake Loesch:Even bigger, I feel like, one of the shared similarities is just this kind of being being misunderstood Yeah. Right, by by the other side or by other people. Right? We all have you know, the the urban population centers we have are different. Right?
Jake Loesch:They all could be considered urban communities, but what's going on in Saint Cloud is different than Duluth. Likewise, rural communities are broadly diverse and different. But but it's easy to sort of clump those into 1 and, oh, it's this urban rural divide. It's so much more than that. But, you know, again, it's sort of a a normal human thing to not necessarily understand or maybe be a little skeptical of what we don't know, but that's why this is so important because we all misunderstand or don't fully comprehend certain things.
Jake Loesch:No matter where you live, these same questions come up as people are trying to decide what to do and and how to take care of their families and show up for work every day and do all the things that we have to do.
Ellen Wolter:Yeah. This is such an important conversation, I think, and the interconnected series is such an important conversation for all the reasons that you've you've already mentioned. And I'm curious why why do you think our narratives and conversations why don't we focus more on how we are interdependent and connected and, you know, face similar challenges? It doesn't seem like we're having enough of these conversations. So what are your thoughts on why we don't do this enough?
Julie Tesch:People are busy, and maybe they say they want to do the work, but they're not willing to take the time to do the work. It's hard. It's building relationships. We're in such an instant gratification society. You know, being able to go on Twitter or Instagram or TikTok or wherever and find out how you're supposed to think.
Julie Tesch:And I think that the digital divide, clickbait and everything and 24 hour news has just sensationalized everything and created that artificial divide. I mean, yes. Are there differences? Sure. I really don't see a divide because if if I'm living here in rural Waseca County and I want to learn more about urban issues, what do I do?
Julie Tesch:Where do I go? I have no clue. You know, so it's at least, I think that then us having this interconnected provides some sort of platform for people to begin that conversation.
Jake Loesch:I couldn't agree more. I think we find ourselves, you know, we live in a time of information overload. In so many ways, we have more information at our fingertips, quite literally, than human history ever has. But at the same time, that experience isn't the same because while we might have more information about, you know, national issues, rural communities are facing, you know, newspapers and local news closing all the time. Right?
Jake Loesch:So where are people getting their information? What resources are available? And and yet nuance is hard. It's easy to sort of paint things in black and white with broad strokes and this or that, and it's this option. Or we have 2 political parties and they're they're always at, you know, battles about whose solution is right and who's taking care of more people and all these kinds.
Jake Loesch:The reality is very few, if any, things only have one of 2 options available. But we talk about so many things in that that black and white narrative, and I think that that really hinders discussion. That really limits our ability to have deep dives onto topics that really say, look. Let's step back and actually challenge each other on some of these assumptions that we're making. Because the reality is we both are.
Jake Loesch:We both do that no matter where you live, whatever side of the aisle you find yourself on or anywhere on the political spectrum. It's so easy with social media to to sort of form a bubble around yourself, right, of people who think just like you and it's a safe community. And after every election, I feel like I hear people say, I can't believe anybody voted for that candidate, or I don't know anyone who would vote for them. And I really I try and, you know, remind myself and challenge people in my own like, you might need to find some new friends because half the country or half the state or even half of your own community probably feels differently than you. And you will probably learn something if you ask them why and approach that conversation with an open mind and really seek to understand, not just sort of tell somebody else or preach at them what you feel is the right option.
Jake Loesch:We we sort of need to just recommit to to learning and listening in so many ways that's just missing from so many of our conversations today. And when we're trying to decide what news story to read or what what clickbait is gonna get our attention, what aren't we getting, is the other important part of that equation to answer. What don't I know? What questions do I have? What isn't a part of this story or this narrative that I need to, you know, take on the responsibility of trying to understand better?
Jake Loesch:You know, I think part of this is continuing to have the opportunity and also continuing to try and encourage people to to be a part of it. Right? Have these resources available, but also please come and and listen and know that you might hear things that you don't understand or don't agree with, but that's okay. Mhmm.
Ellen Wolter:Yeah. What aren't I getting? I love that.
Julie Tesch:Something I, sound bite I heard, it was really profound to me in that we need to learn to value nuance over outrage. And that just struck me square in the face because outrage, you get your adrenaline going and you're just mad and you don't know why, but really valuing as a society nuance over that outrage, I think, is just paramount to what needs to be happening. And it's hard. It's really it's really easy to get upset.
Ellen Wolter:Yeah.
Julie Tesch:But to really listen and understand where people are coming from is is hard. It's the hard work.
Ellen Wolter:I love that, Julie and Jake. And let's keep dreaming about future platforms to talk about nuance, to get folks a little bit uncomfortable and out of their bubbles
Jake Loesch:Yeah. Exactly.
Ellen Wolter:So that we can all learn from each other across rural and urban spaces. So thanks so much for joining us today.
Julie Tesch:Thank you so much.
Ellen Wolter:Thank you for listening to Side by Side. We welcome your emails at sidebysideumn.edu. Side by Side is a production of the University of Minnesota Extension and is written and hosted by me, Ellen Walter. Nancy Rosenbaum is our senior producer. Special thanks to Jan Jekyllah, who designed our wonderful logo, and Jim Griswold, who sings and plays guitar in our opening and closing credits.
Music (Jim Griswold):Really doesn't matter at all.
Ellen Wolter:You can find episodes of Side by Side wherever you get your podcasts. We'll be back next week with another episode. I'm Ellen Walter, and this is Side by Side.
Music (Jim Griswold):Singing a song side by side.