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The Space Between – Heaven on Earth is a companion podcast to Awakening – Heaven on Earth.
Through intimate, heart-centered conversations, this series explores the lived experience of awakening — the questions, integrations, paradoxes, and sacred pauses where transformation truly occurs.
This is the space between knowing and becoming…
where Heaven meets Earth through honest dialogue.
Welcome to the space between heaven on earth. This is a companion podcast to awakening heaven on earth created as a space for reflection, conversation, and lived experience. Here, we enter the pause between knowing and becoming, between insight and embodiment, between heaven and earth. These conversations are not about answers or conclusions. They are about presence, about listening, about reasoning together, about meeting one another honestly in the unfolding journey of awakening.
Jeffrey Aylor:I'm your host, Jeffrey Aylor. Again, welcome and thank you for entering The Space Between with us. Welcome to this episode of the space between. In our most recent conversations, we've been expanding the circle of unity. And today we begin, you know, we started this conversation within ourselves, bringing together all the divided parts with our within us, and then into our relationships, our families, our communities.
Jeffrey Aylor:And today we're going to expand that circle out even further into the different systems that impact and shape our lives. So this episode is called Rebuilding with Love Unity in Systems. Because systems don't appear from nowhere. They're created by us. They reflect our values.
Jeffrey Aylor:They reflect our assumptions, our understanding of who we are. And if systems created from separation can cause harm, then systems that are created from unity and love can bring healing. So with that in mind, we're going to start off with a simple question for each one of you in this morning. I want to welcome Pornadivi and Joe Dermody with us this morning in our conversation. It's always great to have the two of you here to have these wonderful in-depth discussions around the topic that we're going to be sharing this week in our Awakening Heaven on Earth podcast.
Jeffrey Aylor:So when you look at the world today, what systems do you feel Are inviting us into transformation? Not because they're bad, but because we're growing beyond the consciousness or the minds that created them.
Purna Devi:I think throughout history, we have seen the collapse of large systems. Right? And the transformation of these systems. And I think what we are seeing is really another historic moment. We've heard the term and maybe you haven't heard the term of late stage capitalism.
Purna Devi:So we are now in our government systems, at least here in America, right? We are profit over people. And the capitalistic society, these systems are built on profit, on the dollar, on money. And I think that there is a transformation happening. There's a shift happening away from putting the dollar over the human being.
Purna Devi:And I I hope, right, that this collapse, this fall of Rome, if you will, that we're seeing is because the human heart is rising beyond the greed and the consumption and the capitalistic ways that we've been under for some time.
Joe Dermody:I think that going along those same lines, I mean, just the systems that do do oppress the people. Right? The the work systems of the the manager versus employees, the Us versus them systems, the insiders versus outsiders systems, those those systems that that increase oppression. And I think the people are just feeling it more now. And with the with the popularity, I guess, of the social media and the ability to share these thoughts more easily, I think it's just just hitting a point now where we are able to just talk about it more.
Joe Dermody:I think awakening and this transformation is just happening easier, and we're hitting that point where it's gonna happen faster.
Jeffrey Aylor:You know, I really think that one of the one of the reasons that this work has come to me and to us is because there is a great awakening coming in the world. Energy of the Earth is rising. I think the energy of people is going to rise, and many of these systems were built based on suppressing and keeping people at a very low frequency in order to control. Now the system of control may vary from system to system, but the intent is the same, and that is to have power over, as Porna has said many times with the divine feminine power over, which is the divine is the masculine versus the divine feminine, which is power with. And I truly believe people are going to become frustrated with hierarchy, and hierarchy is an example typically of a system that's designed to benefit a few at the expense of the many, and I do think that people are starting to see that and they're starting to recognize that they're being taken advantage of whether the system is a government system, a business system, an education system, a healthcare system.
Jeffrey Aylor:It doesn't matter what the system is. The general purpose of what that system is doing is to benefit few at the expense of many. And I then I think this is a I often think of the different revolutions that have occurred throughout history, you think of the French Revolution, you think of the American Revolution, you think of any number of revolutions that you can go back in history and study, and that most all of them began with the masses being completely fed up with the fact that there was a handful of people in control of the majority of the money, of all the resources, the land, and they lorded over. They lord it over people. So I, you know, again, I think.
Jeffrey Aylor:Unfortunately, I think a lot of people have given that power over willingly. And and and there are plenty of people out there who are willing to to take that power from you. So I don't want to make this a one way. Discussion because I I I do think there are people that are born to lead. They just have those character, those capabilities and characteristics to lead.
Jeffrey Aylor:But the question is, what is the intention behind the leadership? What's the intention behind the decisions they make? You know, is it to do something that is beneficial for the common good, or is it to take and to consume and to be selfish? So with that in mind, there you go. We just laid a really great foundation for this discussion.
Jeffrey Aylor:So much like our last few episodes, we're going to break this topic down into different sections. In this first section, we want to talk about systems. That systems reflect consciousness. They reflect how we think, so it's easy to see a system is something that's outside of us. It's again the concept of separation versus unity.
Jeffrey Aylor:This system is is outside of me. I am a victim in some cases, or I am a benefactor of that system, but the system is outside of me. It's something that they created, right? This whole mindset of they did it. I always love when someone says to me, well, you know they and I say, well, who is they?
Jeffrey Aylor:Who is they? Are you they? Because you know, I need to know who they are in order to barely understand this conversation. But you know, really are the collective expression of human choice. We create these systems and we allow the systems to be created.
Jeffrey Aylor:So with that in mind, this is going to be our first set of questions this morning. So let's start with this one. Have you ever experienced a system that felt deeply human, supportive and very aligned?
Purna Devi:You know, it's a good question because I immediately wanna say the spiritual community, but I will be very honest. I stepped away from the yoga industry, right, the Mick Yoga ville, as some folks call it, because it lacked diversity. There was a great deal of cultural appropriation and a whitewash whitewashing and a an energy of, again, this capitalistic consumeristic drive behind and a reduction of what yoga truly was. So in my heart, I wanna say yes. The, you know, the yoga community, the spiritual community.
Purna Devi:However, I hadn't I did not find that in that space. So one thing I did, I think, is this rogue yogi who used to own a studio here in the city was I ventured off on my own. I thought if it doesn't exist, then build it. And so one thing that I have heard time and time again from my students and my clients and folks in the community that I've communities that I've created over the years is that there's a diversity, there's a welcoming, there's a real raw humanity that exists where folks can lay down their performative aspects that they felt judged in other spiritual spaces. And so again, I think it's, you know, it's an interesting question and interesting conversation because we would typically think of religious circles or spiritual circles or healing arts circles as a place where one could lay down the mask and feel safe and feel a part of, you know, in an equitable way, and that just isn't my experience.
Purna Devi:So I think there's still a need to create more of these spaces, at least in the small little, you know, microcosm that I come from.
Joe Dermody:I think it's also a good question, and I think I've experienced I've experienced some of these, but not on an overall scale. So I think you find these systems, and it's kind of weird because you think of a system as an overall, it's it's hard to it's hard to explain it. So a system is a is a
Jeffrey Aylor:the way of things work. Right?
Joe Dermody:Right. Yeah. That's how most people think of it. But, really, it it can be the way things work even on a small scale. Right?
Joe Dermody:Anything that you're creating, it can be with a a small portion of the population. It can be a a small sample of of a bigger macrocosm. Right? You you take it micro. So it can still be a small portion of this.
Joe Dermody:I have seen, for instance, in our in our work environment, right, our system, our team is using a system, and it is fantastic, and it's very human based. Not every quality team using a system functions the same way that ours does. However, ours is very human based, and it's fantastic. Our I've been in other I have been in other work environments or other restaurants even. Right?
Joe Dermody:So we go to a an Indian restaurant, quite often that's also family owned, and I think that it works very well too. I've been to other restaurants like that. As as a whole, I'm not sure that the restaurant system works great, but there's small pockets of individual restaurants that I think work very well. I and I think you find small pockets all over the place that work really well. It's just how they're run, how they're operated, what their intention is.
Joe Dermody:And I think that is a lot of what we're talking about here. Think if
Jeffrey Aylor:What's interesting because I agree with with both of you. One of the things that I have found in my experience is that as things get bigger, they tend to become much more bureaucratic. They tend to become much more power driven, and then people, you know, start seeking position within that power, and all of a sudden, what started out as a great principle on which that system was built has been lost. They've lost focus. I truly think that the way for this to work is for us to have many small systems that work together in a common way, but they're allowed to to function independent in many cases of each other because it's when that power starts to come together, or the money starts to come together, or some of the fundamental things that tend to cause corruption Within a system.
Jeffrey Aylor:That that it loses its focus. I think. I've really enjoyed this little system that we're building here. And I think it's deeply human. I think you've heard that in our conversations, and I think you've heard the support we provide each other.
Jeffrey Aylor:And that, you know, even though we come from so many different backgrounds and perspectives, we still, I think, are quite aligned in general on the intent behind the information that we're sharing with people. And it, know, we're not telling someone, oh well, what we're saying is right. Then what you're saying is wrong. It's just, hey, have you thought about this? You know, consider this and let's talk about it because you know you may you may persuade me in your position and understanding because you may see something or understand something I don't.
Jeffrey Aylor:So yeah, I have experienced systems that are deeply human and supportive and aligned, but they tend to be small, and they tend to be local. And in many cases. They lose that when they start getting too big. But just my experience so far. So have you ever been in a system or experience a system where really good people are limited by the very structure of the system itself?
Purna Devi:This makes me think of a conversation I had with my swami, my guru, who is now 63 years old, a Serbian man, a Serbian refugee who found the Yogic Ashram, right, and and was part of the organization and ended up being head of the organization for many years. And he said to me, you know, Pornadivi, the higher up you go in any organization, the more you confront ego, your own and others, and the easier it is to hide. And like you said, there are limitations. So are the limitations built in the system? Are the limitations reflected onto the projection screen of the system based on the egos of those at the top.
Purna Devi:Like you said, who who are they? Right? They they are the ones that are in the leadership positions. And so I think that any organization's limitations are gonna be reflections of the individual individuals limitations of those who are running it. And I think that a lot of folks that are in power positions, and, you know, I might say something that offends some folks, but the majority of folks in leadership positions lack diversity.
Purna Devi:They're older white men. Right? And this is just the reality of these supremacist patriarchal systems that we have found ourselves subject to and building from. And the wisest organizers, I believe, are those who recognize the benefit of equity, the benefit of diversity, the benefit of not being the smartest person in the room, The benefit of not leading from the ego and from having that roundtable where other voices that are different than yours. And, you know, my son is a is a white kid.
Purna Devi:Right? He's a handsome, intelligent, artistic, creative white person. And I've told him, I said, you know, son, there are going be many doors that open for you simply because you're an attractive white male. And I pray to God that you hold those doors open for others that don't look like you and don't think like you. And that when you find yourself in a position of power, because you probably will, you're a leader, that you hold spaces and help elevate inequity those who don't have the privilege that you were born into.
Purna Devi:I'll get off my soapbox now.
Jeffrey Aylor:I love it. You know where that by the way, have to tell the story. Do you know where that comes from? The term get on your soapbox?
Purna Devi:Tell us.
Jeffrey Aylor:This is fun. In Hyde Park in the city of London, there is an area in the park where people are allowed to congregate publicly, and they're allowed to state their individual beliefs and feelings about a topic. But to do it, they have to get up on a soapbox to do it. And that's where that term came from. Yeah, I just think about that because I've walked past that area in London and and there are people there.
Jeffrey Aylor:They're on a box up talking about whatever they want to talk about. Yeah. So, yeah, there's a there is a purpose behind that saying. So Beautiful.
Joe Dermody:I love that too that you have to stand up so that you can be seen and you're not yelling from, you
Jeffrey Aylor:know Anonymity.
Joe Dermody:Yeah. Exactly. Wish that wish that happened more today. Right? You can't do that and be the keyboard warrior.
Joe Dermody:Yeah. But, anyway, so I wanna answer the question. I think that in in modern medicine. So I think that there's a lot of really good ethical, moral doctors that are wanting to do the right thing, wanting to be able to heal, and they can't because they're locked behind bureaucracy. They're locked behind a system that will not allow them to heal the way that they could or feel that they should, and I've seen that a lot.
Jeffrey Aylor:Yeah. Good examples. You know, there's there's even scripture, I believe in the Christian religion that teaches that you know the race is not to the wise, it's not to the strong, it's not to the wealthy necessarily. There are and and there's an art to maintaining, getting, maintaining, and controlling power. And when systems do that, they tend to promote the people that are willing to sell.
Jeffrey Aylor:I will say to sell their soul for the purpose of gaining that power and being brought into that leadership circle, which is very small. And you know, people in positions of power within a system don't like independent thinkers. They don't like people that are actually more intelligent than they are. They don't like people that are that have abilities that exceed theirs. So in order to do that, they have to continue to suppress them, and they have to marginalize them, or they have to do something that destroys character or destroys their integrity publicly.
Jeffrey Aylor:You know, there's you can go off into all kinds of conspiracy theories at this point. You know, there are actually groups that believe that the majority of the world is controlled by a very small number of people, a shadow government, a shadow organization. You've probably read books or heard about them, you know, you have the Illuminati, which is a concept of, you know, a very small group of people with a significant amount of power and influence that are really behind the scenes. They don't want to be open and public about what they're doing and how they're manipulating things and systems in the world, whether it's the medical system you're talking about, Joe, whether it's a spiritual system. Because I can tell you, I believe in many cases, know they have influence in churches.
Jeffrey Aylor:They have influence in any number of of businesses. The media, you name it, and and it's all designed for control, and and only those people who are willing. To pay the price in some cases. Will they allow in and those that are are able to challenge that? You think of the doctors that they know that our system is not health care, it's sick care, and they want to do something that makes it health care and preventative.
Jeffrey Aylor:But you know what? It's hard to make money if people are healthy in a health in a system like that. You a food I think of our food system. And you know, there are people out there who know that what we're doing is not healthy for us. So anyway, it yes, I do believe and I have personally business systems that I've been in where good people, people that have significant talent and ability are purposely not.
Jeffrey Aylor:It is purposeful that they're limited by the structure itself because they would challenge they would challenge the current leadership. So there again, start getting into and I think that's what Jesus experienced. If you follow his story, I think that's what many of the the enlightened masters that struggled and suffered. You think of Gandhi and others that, you know, they challenged that concept of leadership, and and you can see that what what the the people in power were willing to do When they're challenged like that. So I think this is an important one, especially in the world and in the environment we live in today.
Jeffrey Aylor:How do we separate criticizing a system? From blaming the people incited?
Purna Devi:You know, I think that criticism and blame can often feel the same, again, depending on the ego of those that are holding space for the critique. And I think that it's not enough to just blame those who are inside it. And like you've said, you know, throughout this podcast today, we are the systems, we have built these systems and a lot of people feel powerless. And so all they have is to complain and to blame and to throw stones. And I think that a more effective way to criticize is to begin to amass in numbers folks that believe in the same way you do, so that we can begin to find a greater level of power in our voice, right?
Purna Devi:If there's really something going on, then it seems like we are able to do more critical benefit, right? We can be heard better when it's not just one person blaming and criticizing, but rather many of us are critiquing in the same way. And I think it is important to recognize that the systems aren't built from just one person. So for me to criticize just one person is not really gonna be that effective, but rather I like to speak in generalities. Right?
Purna Devi:And so we can speak to the general disease of the system. And that doesn't mean that there aren't those individual ants moving in the ant farm, right, that are that are wreaking havoc. And sometimes, you know, individuals do need to be called out. I I don't think that that's a bad thing. I do think, though, that just throwing stones and blowing hot smoke, I think, you know, it doesn't it's not really effective, and it tends to just decrease the health of the person speaking.
Purna Devi:And so I think to be effective, we have to be of healthy mind and have other people to support us in that critique and then find a valuable way, you know, get involved, to get involved in the system, go to the meetings, write the letters, make the calls, do the things that are more effective than just, for example, those folks that go in the echo chamber of social media and just, you know, go off with their opinion and then just feed into the cesspool of negativity that just turns into this vacuum of disease. And now I'm contributing to it. I'm not really benefiting in any way the cause that I initially felt really passionate about.
Joe Dermody:It it comes from everything that we've been talking to up to this point in all of these podcasts. It's it's remembering that we are all one. Right? It's that unity. It is come at this from empathy.
Joe Dermody:Come at this remembering that we're all in this together. Remember that, you know, the systems aren't just miraculously put into place by nobody that we, as a people, as a whole, as one created these systems. And then also remember, you know, something I've been saying for a long time here that, you know, be hard on the problems together. So don't don't focus on the people. A lot of times and, Jeff, you've told me this.
Joe Dermody:You know? Bad systems, you know, will
Jeffrey Aylor:will Bad systems destroy good people.
Joe Dermody:Right. All every time.
Jeffrey Aylor:Every
Joe Dermody:time. So it's not the people's fault. Work with the people to fix the bad problems, the bad systems, and be hard on the problems and easy on the people. Sit at the same side of the table to work, you know, together against the problems, the systems, the issues, whatever it is that we're working on. So we can do this, and we'll we'll get to a better place by working together.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, and in many cases, we have to stop and allow some space between right when when we come into contact with either a system or people within a system that maybe challenges where we currently are in our understanding. I give you a couple of very specific examples. First of all, when as I've come as I've kind of deconstructed my Christian experience, it's very easy for someone doing that to all of a sudden talk about other, you know, Christian people as though there's something bad or wrong. Well, wait a minute. I just came from that.
Jeffrey Aylor:So if I'm talking about them, I'm talking about myself because quite honestly, I was there. I've been there. I understand exactly why they think and feel the way they do. And and I know that they are at in their experience. That's where they are, and that is okay.
Jeffrey Aylor:It's okay. I have to let them be okay because if they aren't okay, I wasn't okay. At that point, I think of this in conversations around politics with people. It it amazes me. How similar?
Jeffrey Aylor:When you start getting into a conversation with someone who claims to be an extreme conservative versus someone who claims to be extremely liberal, the fact is, is that when I'm in a conversation with either one of them, they sound almost exactly the same. The way that they attack the other folks, way that they they they don't consider that maybe the circumstances in which they live is so different that maybe maybe in that particular environment, this particular philosophy is more appropriate. It is more effective for them, given the things they deal with. And so we we don't we we think everyone should think the way we think. And when we come against people or we come in contact with people that are within a system of belief, a system of of of that provides service or provides whatever.
Jeffrey Aylor:Again, it's not the people in it. In many cases, to Joe's point, a bad system is going to consume people. It will consume good people. I've seen it. You put good people in a bad system and they'll perform poorly.
Jeffrey Aylor:It just happens. It's and then and then yet it's easy to blame the people because you can see them where you can't actually see the underlying system that is affecting them. And you know this is where the concept of systems thinking is so important to be able to to grasp, but a lot of people are not aware that these systems. I mean, it's like talking about a system is like talking about spirit. Well, wait a minute.
Jeffrey Aylor:What does you can't see it? It it it manifests evidentially it. You just can't see the system itself. So anyway, think that I love that question because. We have got to get out of a critical critic, and that word criticizing a system I could replace it with judging, judgmental, being judgmental versus using discernment and and and using intelligence to question and logic, and and and so anyway, I do think that there is a way for us to change the tone and nature of our communication with people, and it will change the response stimulus and response that we get.
Jeffrey Aylor:So let's move into this next session section of questions around how how do we change without creating more division? This is one I really think is important. You know how the more I awaken and the more I see things I couldn't see before. Honestly, there is more opportunity to have division. Then there is before I was awakened.
Jeffrey Aylor:So what what a conundrum you know we can get ourselves in. So again, one of the big challenges of of transfer transformation is that we often fight separation with more separation. And that doesn't work. That doesn't work. You can't heal separation through separation.
Jeffrey Aylor:So when we identify enemies. Instead of people to work with and heal. We're not going to create the right healing pattern that we're looking for. So based on that, how do we work together toward change without falling into anger and judgment and this us versus them that Joe talked about?
Purna Devi:This reminds me of a quote by Ram Dass that we're all just walking each other home. And, again, it's so easy to take the posture of the other when, you know, Swami Sachidananda said also, when you come across those whose values oppose your own, right, they they help remind you what to cultivate in yourself. But if I am in an organization where I'm attempting to create change and not more division, how do I begin to work with those people whose values oppose my own when there's such a fissure within the system already? And I think it takes a really special type of leader, and I think that we don't see them come around too often that can speak to, you know, that bipartisan, that middle ground. Right?
Purna Devi:The space between. I'm pulling all of these quotes now. But Rumi said, between the out the ideas of right doing and wrong doing, there's a field and I'll meet you there. And so is there a space between my ideas and your ideas? Is there a middle ground to be found?
Purna Devi:And we start there. You know, I believe a lot differently than most of my family. And we have been estranged for many years, but when I attempted, when I was still in attempt to create harmony with these folks, There were certain areas that were just too touchy. We would become angry. We would become divisive.
Purna Devi:We would become judgmental. But I found that through deep levels of compassion and understanding and forgiveness and unconditional love, there were parts of them that I could connect to. And it wasn't the easiest thing always because that division, that judgment, you know, can cloud the best of minds and the best of intentions. But I tried really hard from a loving space to meet them in that middle ground. I won't you know, since I mentioned that we were estranged, I think you can guess how effective that was because it takes all parties.
Purna Devi:Right? The one thing I cannot control is the free will of anyone else. And by gosh, that is a difficult thing to come to terms with, I believe, when we truly want change and we're well intended. But I think there it requires a real compassionate middle space and patience with each other.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, and and, you know, just in your example, even though you may have forgiven to your point, think you made in a few podcasts ago, forgiveness does not mean forgetting. It doesn't mean that you necessarily have reconciliation. But you still acknowledge that there's love and connection in spite of the what looks to be like division. You know, you truly are still connected, and you can influence and impact even from a distance with energy and with, right, the things that you emit toward them.
Purna Devi:I call that petitioning a higher court. So that is a really good, I think, side conversation to interject here. Right? Because oftentimes, I have felt incredibly frustrated when I couldn't impact the situation at face value on the ground level. And so I think prayer, meditation, sending energy, right?
Purna Devi:Sending love to those whose values oppose my own. Nisala Debbie Joy tells a little story in her book, The Women's Heart Centered Guide to the Yoga Sutras. And she had a monk that she had a lot of discrepancy with, which is sounds kind of silly. Right? But she's on this ashram, and she is in relation to other people, and their egos still involved even in the spiritual space.
Purna Devi:And her teacher said to her, every time you see this person and come in contact with them, you put a lei of flowers like they adorn, right, these statues of the Buddha and whatnot and their gurus. You imagine in your mind's eye placing a lay of flowers around that enemy's neck. You bow down and kiss their feet as they are God themselves. And over time, she did this. And then that monk that had an issue with her came to her and said, you know, I really didn't like you.
Purna Devi:And all of a sudden, now I'm actually looking forward to our interactions. And he had no idea that she had been doing this meditative prayer practice to connect to the god consciousness within him.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, you know, many times I don't think we realize that what we're doing in a conversation with someone who we're in a disagreement with is potentially planting a seed. Right? And and we want the seed to yield A plant right away. We want to see evidence right away that what we've planted is growing. And I I have to tell people all the time.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, you know, we just planted a seed now. We're not going to dig it up every day. To see if it's growing because it has to stay in the ground and we can't see it. It's got things that needs to do and go through before it will start to show any evidence, but we're not patient enough. To have a conversation and then allow that to blossom.
Jeffrey Aylor:And and the other issue I think we bump up against is that we then want to control it. We can't detach from it and allow it to just take nature. Let let let nature and the universe let God source take that and do the miracle. I think even in Christian scripture it says, you know, I Paul planted, Apollos watered, but God gives the increase. Right?
Jeffrey Aylor:We have a work we do, but we have to we have to recognize who who plays what role in all that. And, you know, sometimes we're just not patient. We're just not patient enough with people. That that's a great example, and I do love this sidebar conversation. There's so many great directions that this can go.
Joe Dermody:I put, you know, learn facilitation techniques. I think that would help a lot. And then learn to know yourself a little bit because, you know, you can do things like learn learn self control, learn love, learn patience, learn forgiveness. For me, it was learn a little bit more about how not to anger so easily. I I learned Reiki, which also helped me tremendously.
Joe Dermody:You know? So it's as within, so without, you know, learn it internally before you can, you know, help other people and help yourself in those situations.
Jeffrey Aylor:You know, it's it's interesting because I see this this concept of facilitation. Now it's coming up over and over and over, and and I didn't see this when we first started this work as a foundational skill that I think is going to become critical for us to be able to share with people. But it is. It really is. So a facilitator is a is a is the conscious objective observer.
Jeffrey Aylor:A facilitator is a conscious objective observer of conversation. They're not meant to be in the conversation. They're meant to observe it and help protect, in some cases, people from being inappropriately attacked or or being left out of the conversation because they don't know how to enter the conversation. And I think this goes back to one of the questions we had about how is it that some people don't get recognized by leadership in a system they get? Well, an introverted person.
Jeffrey Aylor:I'm an introvert, and introverted people have a tendency to be looked at as being. Passive or being not assertive enough, and a lot of systems reward assertiveness versus critical thinking, right? So they they will reward the extrovert who's very outgoing, even though that person may not have the level of talent or thought leadership that an introverted person may have, and they will get overlooked or overshadowed in systems. So again, you know, I find a lot of people when when I see people get angry over something. And think about all the different things people we so yesterday.
Jeffrey Aylor:Here's another story. Yesterday, we were going to a concert downtown in Cincinnati, and we're down by the area there in the city called The Banks, which is where the Red Stadium is. It's where the Coliseum is, where the concert was gonna be. And almost every time I'm in Cincinnati now and there's a large gathering of people, there are a religious group there with signs and megaphones screaming, screaming at the people about how if they don't repent from their sins, they are going to die, and they're going to burn in hell, and they're gonna suffer judgment from and I'm sitting here thinking to myself, Do you? Why are you so angry?
Jeffrey Aylor:Your your belief isn't. Isn't something that is bringing you joy. It's bringing you anger. And it's causing you to be judgmental of everyone. Your assumption by coming there is that anybody who comes to this event is going to hell because they're not at a church or they're not singing a hymn or they're not doing something in your mind that you believe is evidence of of godliness.
Jeffrey Aylor:Right? And it creates what we know it. You don't know it. Us versus them. And and I'll I'm sitting here looking at signs and things, and I'm thinking, wait a minute.
Jeffrey Aylor:You're saying to me, yelling, screaming at me, that I'm going to go to hell if I don't believe that Jesus died, that God his father sent him to die to save me from God. Because it's God who's bringing the judgment. Jesus, the son had to come to die for me so that I could be saved from the God that they said loves me, who's gonna send me to hell for all eternity. Now I'm sorry, but I I'm I'm I'm I think that's pretty easy to to figure out that there's some confusion there.
Purna Devi:And I wonder how effective their means are. Right? Do they are is is how they're going about it effective? It seems like it would do the opposite. And then the irony that they're actually creating a hellscape.
Purna Devi:Right? They're in that space creating the hell on Earth, the opposite of what our intention is here, right, with that anger and that vitriol and that divisive aggressive sort of judgment.
Jeffrey Aylor:I feel I feel bad for them.
Purna Devi:Of course.
Jeffrey Aylor:Because, again, as within, so without, all of that is projecting what they actually are feeling within themself, and it's it's so what they believe is not bringing them comfort. It's not bringing them love and joy and peace, and there certainly isn't long suffering or patience in that approach. So anytime I see that, I feel sorry for them. I feel sad for them and and wanna help them in some way. I I really literally want to pull them aside and say, hey.
Jeffrey Aylor:Let me ask you a question. What what do you think you're really they the fact is is that ACT really has nothing to do with their true concern about the people that they're talking to. It has everything to do with their fear that if they don't do these things, they will end up in the very place they're talking about because they're not doing enough. They're not doing all the things that they performing. You've talked about performing.
Jeffrey Aylor:People think they have to be performing all the time, and this is a performance. Yeah. You know? So and I see that in politics. I see that in in in, you know, religion, politics, you name it.
Jeffrey Aylor:This is why people say don't talk about religion and politics because, you know, people lose their mind. They literally lose their mind. So. So what does compassion, compassionate transformation look like? How how do we do this in a compassionate way?
Jeffrey Aylor:And not get carried away with those strong stimulus like that. That is a very strong stimulus that they're creating and the anger that they're projecting. You could respond very angrily to them, and then all of a sudden you're spiraling and now you've got. You've got people hitting each other and hurting each other and doing how do we do this compassionately? How do we approach transformation with compassion?
Purna Devi:Well, I opened up, you know, I've been pulling from pieces every step. We just finished this, and I wanna read this really short passage. And this section is called waging peace because he's talking about the wars that are being waged. Right? And how the earth is suffering.
Purna Devi:War, political, economic oppression, famine, pollution wreak havoc. Right? He's talking about all of this. And he says many people are aware of the world's suffering. This is by Thich Nhat Hanh saying this, by the way.
Purna Devi:Their hearts are filled with compassion. They know what needs to be done. They engage in political, social, environmental work to try to change things. But after a period of intense involvement, they become discouraged if they lack the strength needed to sustain a life of action. Real strength is not in power, money, or weapons, but in deep inner peace.
Purna Devi:Practicing mindfulness in each moment of our daily lives, we can begin to cultivate our own inner peace. And so he says, really, the the fruits of change come from within. We've been talking about it this entire conversation. Right? It's micro and macro.
Purna Devi:And how can I be a facilitator? Right? When you were talking about facilitation when, you two were speaking on it, I was thinking the facilitator is the embodiment of the space between.
Jeffrey Aylor:Mhmm.
Purna Devi:Right?
Jeffrey Aylor:Totally.
Purna Devi:So if I am to facilitate any type of compassionate transformation, I first must be the embodiment of it. Not to perform it if I'm coming with fear, if I'm coming with anger, if I'm coming with bias, if I'm coming with that divisive mind space or heart space, I'm not going to hold the adequate space for transformation to happen naturally. It just won't. Right? Because the container won't be built for the contents.
Purna Devi:It just won't happen.
Joe Dermody:And I'm just gonna repeat basically what I said last time. Right? It's you you need to do it with empathy, with love, with learning all of this yourself first before you can help other people self work. So be again, be hard on the problems and soft on the people. It's it's the same thing.
Joe Dermody:Be mindful of what you're saying. Don't don't don't push buttons, and stop and think before you speak. If people would just do that a little bit more often, man, we could resolve and and not not spark these conflicts and be at a better place in communication.
Jeffrey Aylor:I mean, I really can't add much to what what we've already said about this. It's it, you know, if you've got to be compassionate to yourself and recognize that if you can't be kind and loving and forgiving of yourself, you're not going be that way towards others. And I really do think that that's that's it's so it sounds so simple. This is the thing about many, you know, any most principles sound so simple, but boy, they're not easy. They're not easy when you're in a world that is significantly complex and you've got so much, so many different ideas and thoughts and beliefs that are driving people's behavior.
Jeffrey Aylor:Let's go on into this next session, section of questions around health care and whole person well-being. You know, one of the systems that many people are heavily focused on today is health. And I'll be honest. I've I've I've come in contact with people that they've almost turned health into religion, And they're just as judgmental, and they almost consider health things as moral issue versus you know? And and so how do we and and then how do we move beyond just responding to an illness And getting, you know, closer to supporting wholeness.
Jeffrey Aylor:How do we get? Because I do think illness again is an outward expression in many cases of inward. Inward issues, illness that's within us. This is a case where my son Joel, is a pharmacist, and he's very passionate about prevention and and true health care versus sick care, where he sees, you know, food is medicine. And and how do we how you know, what shifts how we feel about this health care system, which is really not focused on health, it's it's focused on sickness.
Jeffrey Aylor:Right? So how do we how do we honor modern medicine while we expand this understanding of well-being in general?
Purna Devi:I have a fun little story. So a few years ago, I got the shingles. And if anyone is listening, if you have had the shingles, you know it is hell on earth. It is the absolute worst pain I have ever felt in my entire life. It was so intense.
Purna Devi:And I, coming from the holistic space, I was such a brat because I was doing these oatmeal baths and I was doing all of these natural homeopathic remedies and I was just making myself worse and worse and worse. And then finally, God spoke to me and woke me up and said, you little, you know what? How dare you be so privileged and have access to modern health care? It is literally at your doorstep. You could literally walk out and drive five minutes to the doctor and receive, you know, the antiviral, whatever you need from modern health care to help you.
Purna Devi:But you are so fixed on, you know, and jaded, right, by the sick care industry. You're so jaded by it that when it actually would facilitate healing, you scoff at it as if you're too good to use it. And something shifted in me, and I thought, oh my gosh. Right? There are people that are sick all over the world that don't have access to this modern health care.
Purna Devi:And I'm not one that abuses it. Right? I grew up with my mother abusing pills and medications, and always there's a quick fix for whatever symptom that is arising in her human experience that she wants to sedate the root of, right? And so I became very, very jaded and it's changed, right, the trajectory of my life toward holistic healing, energy healing, that takes time that holds space for you to become uncomfortable and find root causes of things. But I just wanted to share that funny story because well, not so funny at the time, funny now, because it helped me realize that there is a space for both.
Purna Devi:We don't lean so heavily. I don't run to modern healthcare and modern science and modern medicine for everything, but there is a space for it because it came through the wisdom of the divine. And also, right, we recognize that mother earth has given us everything we need also. And if we're looking at preventative, yes. Right?
Purna Devi:Medicines and herbs and the system of Ayurveda, for example, from India, the science of life that translates as. And so we understand our personal disposition, and we heal ourself through our way of life, through our daily practices. Shingles was not a preventative situation. It was already in full blown flare up, and I need modern science to help me.
Jeffrey Aylor:Right. Well, that's wisdom, right, at this point. Yeah. Hard earned. You're gaining wisdom.
Jeffrey Aylor:Yeah.
Joe Dermody:So just, you know, you're much more of an expert on this than I am, but you know, I'm I'm learning and I was always one that I I had so many issues growing up. Right? I was diabetic. I was overweight. I had plantar fasciitis.
Joe Dermody:I had bad knees. I had allergies, both food and cats and pollen. I had joint pain. I had both eyes lasered on because of diabetic retinopathy. You know, the list was on and on and on.
Joe Dermody:I have a whole team of medical doctors. Right? And all of this stuff, it was it was needed. It was I thought it was needed. It was things that I would just compound upon myself.
Joe Dermody:And then I also learned that there's other ways to treat this too. Right? Not everything. Right? But there's there's other ways to treat these symptoms that I had.
Joe Dermody:Self healing. There's meditation. There's Reiki. There's energy. There's a lot of other ways that we can treat some of these things.
Joe Dermody:Will it will it cure everything? Maybe, maybe not, but there's other ways to treat these. And now through a combination of both, I am a much healthier person. I think the medicine, the the science side was also given to us. We have learned all of these things, and we use those very effectively on a lot of things.
Joe Dermody:And I don't think they should be discounted either. So I think that through a combination of both, society can can really benefit. So I think it's just finding that right balance. I think also the system, though, is where we have some issues, and the system used correctly could really benefit humanity. And because it's out of whack right now, it's very limiting.
Joe Dermody:It doesn't get it doesn't get given to enough of the population. For instance, insulin. Okay? If if we didn't have access to insulin, I would have died decades ago. Okay?
Joe Dermody:And I think that that is something that was, you know, developed and given away freely Mhmm. A long, long time ago. But because the system in place right now, it makes it more difficult to hand out to everybody that needs it. So there's there's certain things that you can do yourself, that you can learn yourself, that has been around for millennia, and we are just now remembering how to use these great gifts that were given to us. And I think that's gonna be a game changer as well here coming up again.
Joe Dermody:But, also, the the science that we have learned that maybe is also that we're starting to remember and we've used for for a very long time as well. Using them together is really, I think, where this awakening, I think, is really gonna be a game changer. I'm I'm looking forward to this. This is gonna be amazing.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, you know, there's there is prevention. There is a reactive, and there's a proactive element to health, believe, and I do think that there are significant gifts that have been given to us by God, by universe, by source, by earth to help prevent illness. But there was also gifts that have been given to help when illness does come. In response to that illness, to your point, porno, you were talking about When you had shingles, it was already too late. Had you done something maybe that could have helped you prevent that?
Jeffrey Aylor:That's one thing, but when you have it. Now you probably have to seek a different source to help you with it, and you know there's. There are people I know in the medical field. My very best friend from high school is a general surgeon. He's a medical doctor, and the things that he's able to do today is a gift.
Jeffrey Aylor:He has a gift. I could not do what he does. Not everyone has that gift given by the divine to be able to help people. Now here's here's where I think things tend with systems. They tend to get derailed.
Jeffrey Aylor:There is a proverb in Christian teachings that says the love of money is the root of all evil. When we privatized for profit health care, at that point, you you opened it up for corruption. You opened it up for and it's exactly the same thing we've run up against with our food system. The our our our our system of food, especially here in The United States, not that it's it's just The United States, but it's very, very obvious here that decisions made around how our food is created, how our food is managed, which if you believe as I have, like my son Joel has, and I have come to see food is medicine. It is medicine, and it and unfortunately, the food system and the medical system in many cases collaborate with each other, the two largest lobbying groups in our government, and the money associated with it is immense.
Jeffrey Aylor:So I'm sorry, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to sit down and figure out, well, what has caused this? It's when you allow it to become a prophet. We've we've talked about this early on when it becomes something. Oh, and by the way, there's also a great proverb that says there is no profit under the sun. There is no profit under the sun.
Jeffrey Aylor:If you're profiting, you're profiting at someone else's expense. Right? And and when you understand that you take that mindset and you apply the actual principles. It's so funny because unfortunately. Here in The United States specifically, there's a lot of discussion right now around Christian nationalism and how.
Jeffrey Aylor:It this whole conversation is is kind of focused on what the negative elements of that are creating. In our in our in our government system, because now we're we're we're allowing that corruption to spread. It's like cancer. It's like a cancer spreading through one system and then the other. You know, cancer will metastasize.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, this is a cancer and it's metastasizing into multiple systems. Now that I say that and you would think I'm I have a very negative opinion of where the world's going to go or what's going to happen, but I do not because I think that. The all knowing source is greater than all of that. And I do believe that there are people that have been sent into this world at this time. To help transform our understanding of these things, and I think and hope that that's a part of what we're trying to do here.
Jeffrey Aylor:I I don't hate medicine. You know, there's another scripture in Christian teachings that says actually in the and also in Judaism because it's in the Old Testament is that a merry heart. Doeth good. Like a medicine. Now sit down and think about that one for just a second.
Jeffrey Aylor:If a merry heart is like a medicine and it's good. If a medicine isn't good, then a merry heart isn't good. So there is medicine that is good. And it does exactly what it's supposed to do, and it's helpful. So again, everything we do needs to be tempered and moderated.
Jeffrey Aylor:What I find is that it's extremes when we get into the extremes, and this goes back to the the hermetic principle of polarity, when we get into any extreme. That's when you're going to create significant difficulty and friction and suffering. Suffering comes from that. In so many different ways. Oh gosh, boy, this is I love to see what a great topic.
Jeffrey Aylor:So let's jump into the the next session section of questions around healing and human needs and Perna. I really want to kind of focus this around some of your healing work and the work Joe that you're doing with Reiki as you'd grow and develop in that understanding and energies. What do you see people needing that many of our current systems are really struggling to provide? What are we missing? What are some of the key things?
Purna Devi:Yeah, again, I think, you know, the quote unquote healthcare system that's in place, I think we've touched on so many aspects of it that are not for actual healing. They sedate the symptoms. They don't get to the root cause. Right? And I think that a lot of holistic healing takes into account the multiple avenues and the multiple layers of the being.
Purna Devi:You know, if you think about the health care system, I've got a doctor for my foot, and I've got a doctor for my eye, and I've got a doctor for my knee, and I've got a doc right? And so what that system does inherently, it creates divisiveness. It creates division within the whole being system. It doesn't take into account the organism, the entire being. And a lot of these, you know, again, I'm gonna use air quotes, alternative therapies, alternative medicines that are actually just natural and historic medicines, right, that the modern system was birthed from.
Purna Devi:More natural systems take into account the multilayered being that is human. So I think a lot of these new systems don't look at the mental connection to the body, the nervous system, and the way that stress and, you know, these real basic systems, they affect the entire being. As a I don't like to use the word middle aged. I'm 43. Am I middle aged here?
Purna Devi:Maybe. Maybe I am. I'm getting there. I'm getting there. Well, there's a conversation happening in women's circles now around perimenopause.
Purna Devi:And it's this buzzword that's happening because in the previous generations, no women talked about it. Joe and I have talked about it. Right? Because I don't wanna call out your wife. She's not here.
Purna Devi:But we have, you know, all of a sudden, this physiological experience of these hormonal shifts and this dysregulation that's happening in our hormones is hitting this population of women, this generation of women like a ton of bricks. And we didn't have any previous information about perimenopause. And so I saw Bill Gates' ex wife just donated like millions and millions of dollars to women's health care research. And so I think, right, what's lacking in the system, the whole being, and also diversity. Right?
Purna Devi:We need more information around women's health. We need more information around minority health. And, yeah, I think that there's a lot that can be prevented by taking into account the whole being and not fragmenting us into the symptoms once something has proliferated within the physical, because by the time we get to the physical, it's moved through all of these subtle subtle layers of the of the being.
Joe Dermody:I I agree.
Purna Devi:Pre menopause research. Sorry, Joe.
Joe Dermody:No. It's all good.
Purna Devi:More time, and then I'll step down off my London soapbox.
Joe Dermody:I think I think you're absolutely right, but I think we don't have the the primary care doctors that we had in the past. The the one doctor that was able to take all of the information from all the specialists, right, pull it all in, and then have that real honest conversation with you and say, okay. This is what I'm seeing from all of these specialists, and maybe this is what is going on. They are now just the person you see once a year to have your checkup, and and that's all they're doing. They're not really pulling in all of that information and giving you that that diagnosis, right, that they don't take the time to sit with you anymore and say, okay.
Joe Dermody:I think this is really the root cause. They don't care about the root cause because, again, they're treating the symptoms and not trying to find the problem. And, again, for those primary care doctors out there that really do care and are trying, I apologize, Because I know some of you are out there really doing that. But I think the system's built so that you're not. Right?
Joe Dermody:Because a lot of their hands are tied, and they have to go through this certain checklist before they're allowed to do anything. And I know this because I've talked with several of them. I was fortunate when I was diagnosed with diabetes that I had a primary care doctor that was allowed to do that, and he he truly cared. And I had a lot of stuff going on, and we had no clue at the time what was happening. And he took all of the symptoms that I had and said, you know, let's try this, which was a little bit different, and that's where we found out.
Jeffrey Aylor:But What you're describing though is really a a microcosm of what's going on in the world in general, and that is that we divide the body into separate systems. Yep. And we specialize and focus on a specific system within the body. Right? That and we and we do it sometimes at the exclusion of what's the relationship of that system with the other systems within the body.
Jeffrey Aylor:I know an example of that would be my mother who was diagnosed with multiple system atrophy and MSA, which is kind of a rare diagnosis today. What we were seeing, though, with her is that she was she had an eye problem, and then she had a this problem, and she had a that problem. We thought all of them were individual and isolated, and she was seeing a specialist for each one of them. But what no one put together was the fact that it was her gray matter in her brain. It was neurological that it was the gray matter in her brain that was deteriorating, and the connections within her brain were touching when they shouldn't have been and creating short circuits and causing an issue with her eye and then with her balance and with her this and her blood pressure and her and all these things actually that appeared to individual and independent of each other were actually all related to each other.
Jeffrey Aylor:I think of, you know, doctors of osteopathic medicine, DOs, who tend to have a much more holistic view of the person. You know, they maybe that is a specific type of study that could be enhanced, but I agree. I think overall we've got to we've got to look at people as entire beings, recognizing that we're made up of multiple systems, but all the systems are designed to function together, and they're all related and connected. They're not disconnected from each other.
Joe Dermody:It's kinda funny, ain't it? They're all very siloized. Right? So if you break down these silos and kinda get everybody talking again, kinda like a community. Right?
Jeffrey Aylor:It's pretty interesting.
Purna Devi:Yeah. Think we also have to include in the conversation how is one moving through their daily life. You know, if you just prescribe me medicine, if you, you know, you see all these symptoms, but you're not asking, how are you spending your day? Are you connecting in nature? Are you drinking water?
Purna Devi:What are you eating? What are you putting in your body? Right? What am I consuming? And I would be remiss if I did not mention in this conversation, the medical medium, Anthony William.
Purna Devi:So I use that example of shingles. Right? And I finally got off my little high horse and went and saw the doctor to help, right, with shingles once it had gotten so bad and all of the holistic stuff didn't work. And then I also, my swami sent me from New York all of the medical medium books. And I started looking at liver detox for anger, and I started looking at the way I was eating and what I was drinking that was affecting my adrenals, that was affecting my nervous system, that was affecting the levels of different different things in my body.
Purna Devi:Right? And and detoxing my system in a really intense way, in a really dedicated way. And I think that that is key to this conversation is that we centralize the patient and the client and not make them secondary to what they're doing. Right? A lot of folks want that they feel like their health is something that's done to them instead of something that they are required to be responsible for.
Joe Dermody:And I also think that that you don't take the the mind, and honestly, I'm gonna say the spiritual well-being out of it. Because I think a lot of things that that's really affecting the population today is the ability to slow down, relax, and calm the mind. Because you're seeing so much anxiety in the world today that is affecting so many things. Without that ability to stop, slow down, and remove some of that anxiety, I don't think you're gonna get a lot of healing that needs to happen. You
Jeffrey Aylor:make me think of one of the one of the topics on our Living Heaven on Earth podcast that we've that we have out touches on the practice of fasting, and fasting can be not just food. People when they think of fasting, you think you're just fasting from food. You can fast from many things that help you detox, Right? You can fast from social media, you can fast from whatever, alcohol, you can fast from food, you can fast from that, you can fast from all kinds of things that will allow your system in many cases, it's a reboot. We know we know from an information technology perspective, lot of times all a computer really needs to do in order to get itself back to some sense of balance and function is to just be shut down and restarted, and have a period where it just sits and then you can, you know, it's amazing how that fixes so many different things.
Jeffrey Aylor:And really, that's what fasting is. Fasting is a reboot. And you know, it's taught in every sacred tradition. It's not just taught in one is taught in every sacred tradition. Yet.
Jeffrey Aylor:I've had people when I tell them, you know, when I don't tell people because they don't I don't want them to know I'm fasting in most cases. But if they know it, or they find out about it, it's like, Oh, you know, that could be dangerous. Well, no, quite honestly.
Purna Devi:As they're eating their cheeseburger.
Jeffrey Aylor:Yeah, not fasting is dangerous, right? So the last section I want to go into here is really around education. You think of the education system, work systems and community systems. We've touched on community here recently, but also and we and we periodically touch on work systems. But imagine.
Jeffrey Aylor:Our systems beginning from a different question, you know, instead of us saying, you know, how do we produce more? Maybe the question we build a system on should be how do we help people become whole? Right? How do we help people become whole? The education system is really today not designed to help children become whole.
Jeffrey Aylor:If anything, it's it's it's pushing them away from things that are really important and focusing them on things that are designed to benefit other systems from what you teach them. So what would education look like if its true purpose was to help each person discover their true gifts and to help develop those gifts and to bring these gifts out into the world.
Purna Devi:I just had this conversation with my 16 year old son who is learning. So I pulled him out of the public school system many years ago, and it was because I have a firm belief that the public school system teaches people how to be good factory workers, how to sit still for eight hours a day, how to follow directions and not think freely necessarily, right? So I could get on a whole we could do a whole other podcast about the public education system. So I pulled him out and I got him into a private school system that mirrors a great deal what the public school system is still built on. And we have this conversation, and he's realizing what most of us that have gone through the education system realizes, and that is a lot of what you learn is useless.
Purna Devi:And he's really, you know, felt felt very distraught because he's in it right now. And he's like, I'm sitting for eight hours a day, and I'm regurgitating facts, and I'm not you know, he's a musician. He wants to play guitar, and he wants to be creative, and he wants to be around other creatives. And instead, you know, he's not learning things that are going to help him later in life. Right?
Purna Devi:And so if education is where we start, if that's a system that we start to transform, then the children are learning about farming. They're learning about agriculture. They're learning about meditation at an early age. They're learning about their intuitive gifts at an early age. You know, I think of the Montessori system.
Purna Devi:I taught yoga and Montessori for four years in Centerville. And it was so beautiful because they're not just sitting, you know, in front of a computer, in front of a textbook all day, but rather they're understanding individual learning styles and adapting in their smaller class sizes as well. And so there is so much reform that I think can happen and that teaches, you know, mental health at an early age, social health at an early age, compassion, right? All of these really important humanitarian skills beyond, you know, what the Declaration of Independence said and what the, you know, what the guys in the white wigs were doing a couple hundred years ago. No offense to white wigs.
Jeffrey Aylor:None taken.
Purna Devi:As a silver haired woman myself.
Jeffrey Aylor:Good luck.
Joe Dermody:I think that it would I think it'd involve a lot more mentorships and a lot more hands on work, as well as everything else that you just said too. Right? But in order to be more it would have to be more individualization work. Right? You because you have to take the individual into it.
Joe Dermody:You can still do it in a a broad type of teaching because there's a lot of general stuff, I think, that still needs to get passed along in that education process. But you're gonna communicate. There's gonna be more communication, I think, that happens, especially as the the kids would get a little bit older. There's a lot of stuff I think that is taught when the kids are younger. I think a lot of that should happen also with the parents, and I think the parents would need to be more involved in the education than they are currently.
Joe Dermody:And that's not in every family. I know a lot of families and parents do a lot of teaching now. But I think that overall for this to be effective, I think the parents would need to be, in general, a lot more involved in that education process. I think that, you know, with me growing up, my community also did a lot of my education, and I'm not sure that happens a whole lot anymore either right now. So when I was growing up, I learned a lot of my personal skills from my community.
Joe Dermody:There's a lot of times when my friend's parents would step up and correct me if I was doing something wrong, and I'm not sure if that happens as much as it did back then. And sometimes maybe that's not a great thing, but maybe it's just a generational situation. I'm not sure. So I I don't know. I think that it's a it's a sticky subject, but I think overall as communities grow and get closer, as systems grow, get better, as communities, family, everything that we've been talking about here change, get better, grow closer, The education also will get better.
Joe Dermody:Everything grows at its own pace here, and as one gets better, they're all gonna get better.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, when you think of a system, most systems are made up of five basic components. You have a supplier. You have inputs that that supplier provides to the system. The system then has a process that it uses to transform those inputs into something, an output, some outcome, and then there's a recipient of that outcome who we call customer, right? So when I look at education, have to ask the question, who's the customer of that system?
Jeffrey Aylor:Who is the system designed to provide an outcome for an output for? Porno, you were talking about how you know I think today the system is really designed to create workers that go into business that make business more profitable. Right? So it's leading people to that versus necessarily creating them as a whole person that's capable of providing for themselves. They're creating people that are reliant on other systems for their well-being and for their provision.
Jeffrey Aylor:I know too many people that feel that they're they're victims because they don't feel that they have control over the ability to provide for their own basic needs. Food, clothing, shelter. I mean, if we were to teach children at a young age how to garden and grow their own food, how to prepare that food so that it is prepared in a healthy way, how to make their own clothes if they ever had to, then they would know that they could always have clothing because they could make it themselves. How to build a shelter, how to how to protect themselves from the elements, fundamental skills that if they're able to do that, then they're no longer relying on other systems to provide that. Now they become an independent, right?
Jeffrey Aylor:They become a self sustaining resource that is no longer able to be controlled or become a victim of or be taken advantage of the systems that they're now relying on to provide that we've outsourced. We've even outsourced the raising of children. Sorry, but that's exactly what's happened. We outsourced them to public schools, private schools, whatever schools. And at that point, you know, who who who is to blame for how these children turn out?
Jeffrey Aylor:Right? So anyway, I think it's really important. And how how am I gonna know that that child actually was given a very special gift of of being able to grow things, and that that's the path that they probably should pursue. Or maybe they are a wonderful cook, and they didn't realize it because they were never taught how to cook, and you never had the opportunity to see that skill come out. You know, a lot of times those skills don't come out until later in their experience, and it's by accident or by chance that they do.
Jeffrey Aylor:It certainly wasn't something that was being mined by the system To to bring out, you know, in a natural way. I think work is that way. I also think the work systems are that way. I think. A lot of times we put people in positions that they're not best suited for.
Jeffrey Aylor:And then we expect them to learn how to do it. I tell people all the time, well, that'd be like me taking someone who writes with their right hand and they're right handed and asking them to work and write with their left hand all the time. I'm put them in the wrong position. I've put them in a position they can do it, they're not going to be great at it, and they're going to be very uncomfortable doing it. Will they grow and develop?
Jeffrey Aylor:Yes, but they'll still never be in that state of flow and and be as productive if I put them in a position where they can use their natural ability and it's flowing. Communities are that way. I think we find people, you know, we don't take advantage within our own community of the talent and the skills and abilities that are already there, And we go seeking help outside of the community when in reality all the answers to the community are right within it. So again, this is the it's funny to me that we started this conversation with probably less general preparation. And it's ended up being probably one of the more.
Jeffrey Aylor:Robust conversations that we've had. So I'm going to end with this one question. And that is what gives you hope about the future?
Purna Devi:I think what gives me hope is my son, right? I brought him up a great deal, and it makes me emotional as I even say it because I see the changes in him and in his generation, right? I think every generation has its own sort of karmic lot and limitations based in what it's been given from those previous. And so what gives me hope is that systems are changing, that the shadow is coming to light, right, that things are less hidden, and that these newer generations are speaking up. They are finding a deepened sense of connection to who they are and not just looking outward to be told who they are.
Purna Devi:Right? There is more individuation, and I I have to have hope. Right? Not the kind of hope that's built in false awareness or something that's so far beyond us. But I think that because of the patterns I've broken, because of the way I live, because I see the benefit of that in my son, I have to have hope that things will continue to change.
Purna Devi:That that which is unsustainable is dissolving because it was built in faulty foundation to begin with. And so we have patience with the destruction that's happening, but destruction is necessary for creation. And so even when things are tough, even when it appears that everything is being destroyed and there's, you know, all these fires to put out, so to speak around us, those fires give me hope because I understand that that destructive element is so important for this next generation to continue to create from our ashes.
Jeffrey Aylor:That's part of the alchemical process that I think the world is going through. Right. So
Joe Dermody:I'm gonna agree with everything that you've said and also just add that this podcast gives me hope that your that this this awakening concept gives me hope, that other podcasts like this give me hope, that the number of people that are awakening right now give me hope, that the that my own awakening process gives me hope, that I I feel it myself. All of this is is a beautiful thing and the feeling that I have. You know, we're all raising our vibrational level. We're all lighting our own candle and our own flame and passing it to others, and all of this gives me hope.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well said. I'm I'm confident in spite of what many people think about our younger generation that they have chosen to come here to lead this transformation and awakening and the creation of heaven on Earth, the new Earth that I believe we are here to help and to facilitate. Here to be to me. We are here to be facilitators with them of that transformation. And as we bring this conversation to a close, I think it's important to note that maybe the big question here is not who is responsible for fixing the world.
Jeffrey Aylor:Maybe the real question is what am I creating as a creator through the way I live? What am I creating? How am I contributing to the collective through my individual creation? Because all the systems we've been talking about are built from choices that we make. Choices are built from beliefs, and beliefs come from consciousness.
Jeffrey Aylor:And as we awaken, as we create changes. I think it's important for us to to focus on, you know, the foundations of love, of unity, of love. And that if we do that, we truly will create heaven on Earth. So Porna, Joe, thank you so much for again being a part of this wonderful conversation this morning. And I hope that everyone out there who's listening.
Jeffrey Aylor:Rebuilding with love does not begin someday. It begins in every single choice that that we make, that you make, every relationship, every space where we choose unity and love over fear and separation, that is going to change the world. And with that thought, the space between continues. As we come to a close, remember that this journey continues in many expressions. This podcast is part of a family of partner podcasts.
Jeffrey Aylor:Awakening heaven on earth. The space between heaven and earth and living heaven on earth are three companion podcasts exploring spiritual awakening from complementary perspectives. Awakening heaven on earth offers the core teachings and mystical reflections on unity, love, and conscious living. The space between creates room for dialogue, reflection, and lived conversation around those teachings. Living heaven on earth focuses on basic spiritual practices that help embody these insights in daily life.
Jeffrey Aylor:Together, they form a unified journey of understanding, experience, and integration, inviting listeners to remember their connection with the divine, with one another, and with the living world. You can find all of them available on the same podcast streaming platforms wherever you listen. And if music helps carry these teachings deeper into the heart, the unity. Awakening Heaven on Earth album is available on all major music streaming services as a musical companion to this journey. Wherever you engage, through listening, reflection, conversation, or music.
Jeffrey Aylor:May it gently remind you you are not separate. You belong to the one life and heaven is already unfolding within you. Until next time. Walk gently, love deeply, and embody heaven on earth.