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In this episode I’m in a lively conversation with wonderful writer, Kim Spencer, whose debut novel, "Weird Rules to Follow," is available to be ordered at Orca Book Publishing. We had a revealing conversation about how Kim became a writer, how she questioned whose rules are writers following, decolonizing the page, and fulfilling a dream that each Indigenous youth can find themself on the page and in other's stories. Each Indigenous youth matters.
Raining Revolution: JEDI in the Arts engages artists in a conversation about justice, equity, diversity and innovation in their respective field of arts. Arts is defined broadly and includes visual, literary, performing, design or new media.
Meharoona 0:05
You're listening to raining revolution JEDI in the arts. That's justice, equity, diversity and innovation in the arts. Tune in to hear conversations with various artists about these themes. Brought to you from CFUV 101.9 FM and I'm your host Meharoona Ghani. Raining revolution is coming to you from the traditional territories of the Songhees, Esquimalt and WSÁNEĆ peoples whose historical relationships continue to this day.
I'd like to welcome my guest and dear friend Kim Spencer. Kim Spencer is from the Ts’msyen Nation in Northern British Columbia, and currently lives in Vancouver. Kim completed The Writer Studio program at Simon Fraser University in 2020, where she focused on creative nonfiction. An experimental story of hers was published in Issue 76 of Filling Station Magazine, and it is a finalist for the Alberta magazine Publishers Association awards. Kim's debut novel 'Weird Rules to Follow' by Orca Book Publishing will be released October 18 2022, and has received a Kirkus starred review. You can read more about Kim's upcoming novel in BC BookWorld's current issue. Hello Kim. It's so lovely to see you and have you here on Raining Revolution. Please let us know which Indigenous territories you're joining me from today.
Kim Spencer 2:16
Hello Meharoona. So very nice to be here with you this morning. I am here in Vancouver. That is on the Musqueam Squamish Tsleil-Waututh Territory. And it's the lovely, beautiful September morning
Meharoona 2:33
Isn't it? It's so sunny outside. I love seeing the blue skies, less smog today in Victoria. I don't know how it is for you in Vancouver.
Kim Spencer 2:43
It is the most perfect September day.
Meharoona 2:46
Awesome. Well, It's just such a pleasure to have you here with us. And, I'm so excited for you and looking forward to your book is coming out, and pretty much it is out isn't it people can order it.
Kim Spencer 3:04
It is if you pre ordered directly from my publisher, Orca Books, then you would have received it in the mail this week. So that was a bit of a surprise and good surprise. It almost feels to me like it's a soft launch. So that's kind of nice. So it's been pretty fun, getting tagged in posts on Instagram or Facebook or seeing it even on Twitter in the far corners of the world, like Alaska. So pretty fun to see and seeing it popping up in classrooms. Teachers are sending me pictures saying they've got their order for the class for the year. So that's been pretty fun.
Meharoona 3:49
That's excellent. Well, as you know, Raining Revolution JEDI in the Arts is the name of this podcast series. I often start off with the first question with folks who join me: what does JEDI in the arts mean to you? And, JEDI stands for justice, equity, diversity and innovation. You can speak to all or one or even if you don't want to speak to any it's up to you. But that's where we'll start.
Kim Spencer 4:19
Firstly, it is a fantastic name, and I definitely have never been asked what that means. If I was to focus on one, I think diversity definitely is really important area for me right now, because I feel like it's only been in the last 10 years that I've really been doing the work myself say reading BIPOC, focusing on that. And I think it's important say for someone coming from a background where I grew up as an Indigenous person who grew up reading Judy Blume, Sweet Valley High books and I love them. I love to read and it never, it never dawned on me that I was missing from the pages or people that look like me were not on the pages. So that's where I feel it's so important right now for my focus to be on diversity. And it wasn't until I was about, I think 19 or 20, and I started attending the Native Education College school on just off Main and fifth here in Vancouver, and I was doing my upgrading, and the assigned reading was the book called "In Search of April Raintree". And I read it and wow, I was blown away. And that was the first time I ever realized, oh wow, this is what it looks like to to see us on the page. And it was the first time I cried in a book because it was so moving. And I just think like I think back now to today, with all the work that's been done this will say like what I was saying, I've been doing the work for last 10 years reading, which I feel embarrassed about, you know, I'm 47 years old, if I'm allowed to say that on air, and so can you imagine that's only 10 years ago was 37, 37 to start realizing that, hey, wait a second. So that's one thing I really think about the Native Education College, I think that they were way ahead of their time, they were way ahead of their time. That was the assigned reading I got, the next one was "Halfbreed" by Maria Campbell. And there's nowhere else and who else was doing that way back then probably very few very, very few schools would have been assigning reading like that. Yeah, it wasn't until I was an adult. And then even then, so that happened when I was around 19 or 20, and it had a huge impact on me, but you know, I dropped out of school didn't finish my upgrading. Went on my merry way. Until when, like I was saying 10 years ago. So all that time, nothing. So it's extremely important to me right now to be focusing on diversity BIPOC.
Meharoona 7:17
I'm wondering in discovering that you're missing from the pages how did that lead you to where you are now?
Kim Spencer 7:25
Well, at the time, at NEC, Native Education College, I was moved by the story content, not seeing myself on the page, but the story was, it's a heavier book, a heavier read, so it was the content. And then at that time, it gave me pride, but I was in my early 20s, so just went on my merry way, told anybody I could to read that book. And then that was that. So you just forgot about it. And then it wasn't until, say 10 years ago that I started reading, you know, Thomas King, read Sherman Alexie's "Absolutely True Diary of a Part-Time Indian", and that, I would say, was that book specifically is what had the most impact on me. And I also read a lot of books by black authors, like say "Between the World and Me", fantastic read. So I was reading, I was taking in a lot of different books, BIPOC books at the time, and, but Sherman Alexie's book really resonated with me, it was the most like how I grew up seeing, really seeing the connection, you living in a fishing town or you know, those different social issues that he faced. So then I kind of started thinking, realizing the importance, realizing how important it was say, say if you have a talent or a gift, say writing, then how important it is for us to use it - that skill because of the way books impacted me as a kid, in a good way. I'm not saying anything negative about Judy Bloom or those Sweet Valley High books, like I truly enjoyed them. So I really enjoyed it. But then I think about what that would be like for Indigenous kids now growing up for them to see and to be more mainstream being normalized seeing themselves on the pages from maybe picture books to novels for when they're YA or middle grade. So that's where I started thinking about writing, of course I always liked writing probably since I was 12, but really seriously thinking about like this is important work. This matters, this work. I guess that kind of goes in line with innovation about really changing things or transforming the literary world like, hey, we can have a seat at the table. You know, right now I'm really focused, like I said about about specifically BIPOC. This book called "Craft in the Real World" by Matthew, I don't want to butcher his last name, but is it like Salesses, or Salesses, Korean guy, and he has written a book on editing. And so he's kind of saying, take everything you've ever known and flipping on its head, basically saying, who wrote the rules? You know, it's about decolonizing the writing practice, the editing practice....the thing they say - don't start a new sentence or a new paragraph with and, or, but who's next paragraph, but you know, and then he like kind of cheeky like that. Then he says, they say a paragraph can't be one sentence, his next paragraph, one sentence, like real cheeky, like that. And I love that. Because, like, say my book is told in a series, my upcoming book, "Weird Rules to Follow" is told in a series of vignettes, and quite a few people are like, Why did you do that? Why would you do that? And to me, I think they're just these pockets, these slices of life-like, seemingly ordinary sort of world. That's kind of how we think about when we remember our childhood in these little pockets. So that's why I like telling stories in that style.
Meharoona 11:41
Yeah, and it sounds like there's two things going on, there's a type of craft, there's the craft that you're thinking of, and in terms of vignettes, and the style of how you want to tell your story. But there's also the area of memory, and how often, when we're thinking about our childhood or any situation they are in small pieces of memories, or fragmented memories, and that's also a type of craft and writing as well. So you've spoken a bit about what diversity means to you, and what innovation is, in terms of the craft and style of writing you're doing and what led you to become a writer, and that's all very powerful in terms of your journey. I do wonder about what is your definition of art?
Kim Spencer 12:41
Hmm. Well, I think of myself as a creative person. I feel like, even the way you decorate your home, you know, to me, that is quite it's really important because I feel like being in a nice space. That really feels that creative side. I like visual, you know, I like films, old films. I like the book, I think we've talked about this in the past, the book "The Artist's Way" by Julia Cameron. That's a really important read. And so I need to feed that part of my creativity. I need to feed that because I feel like when I do, when I take in, like say podcasts, it's what's the name of podcast, "Design Matters" with Debbie Millman, she interviews the most fantastic people, and when I listen to those, you just get nuggets here and there that really, you're like, 'aha', jot down something and give me ideas. So I don't feel like I make enough time for it. These days, you know, everything is kinda with the last couple of years have been a little bit of right off, but I feel like, I used to do, say for "The Artist's Way" she talks about the 'morning pages', getting it down on paper, you know, that sort of journaling, the brain drain, so I feel like that's a really important part of the creative side for writing. So I definitely need to make more time for it. And like she says scheduling or artist dates or you know things making time for it for sure.
Meharoona 14:33
Yeah, it is important to make time and I often say to myself as a writer, that even if I don't schedule the time, I think about the off times as also creative, creative spaces of writing and so for you the art, your definition of art, sounds pretty broad and beautiful. It's about physical space, your physical space around you. It can also lead to podcasting that people who are doing podcasts are artists. Books, as a writer, "The Artist's Way", morning pages journaling, the creative time and space you make for those things are seen as art....
Kim Spencer 15:18
...and walking, walking, running by the water being in nature. And then like you said, doing the off time that when you're not doing that, that to me is just sort of settling the mind clearing the mind. Yeah, it's all it's all good, as far as I'm concerned.
Meharoona 15:33
Yeah, that's great. I often think people forget to think about the self care aspect of walking or being in nature, and that too, is in itself, a form of art, and self care is a very important aspect of any, for any artist in terms of the work that they do, especially in the kind of stories that you're talking about and sharing that are personal, you do need time for self care. How does your art connect with people or bring them into a conversation about the themes that are important to you?
Kim Spencer 16:14
I have to say it's been an interesting process, even in say, when I was attending, but you've also attended the Writers Studio at SFU, and workshopping your work and having people critique your work, share, dissect, you know, so I feel like for me, my upcoming book, "Weird Rules to Follow" is based on my childhood, my life experiences growing up, it's published as fiction. So hearing people, you know, their feedback, review your work, and say, specifically, a recent article that features my book talks about my book in BC Bookworld, where, you know, it's the front page, like 'prejudice in Prince Rupert', that, that I just don't feel like that is the focus, not saying that it's not, it's definitely weaved throughout, you know, so there's so many different things. And then even when we were going through the editing process, the focus being on childhood friendships, and like, no but it's not exactly only about childhood friendships, it's about, you know, family, identity, culture, the importance, specifically the importance of culture in Indigenous communities. So it's been, it's been very, it's been interesting to hear the feedback and to see the reviews. It's, you know, about a racialized...of growing up as an Indigenous girl in a small town as a racialized person, what it's like to be viewed as other. When I was going through the editing process, and really kept jumping out at me these sort of... these dual worlds... straddling these two worlds... your home life as an Indigenous young girl, your home life, and then your life at school, if you hang around non Indigenous kids. So then, I was sharing this with a friend of mine and she's Korean...and she's like, yes, yes...growing up in Canada so that sort of we all like it's almost like everybody, anybody BIPOC has these dual worlds that they're straddling. And then I was listening to either a podcast or whether it was Netflix...is it Samin, Samin Nosrat where she's got a podcast and a book "Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat", and so she shares that as well. She shares growing up and she is living in San Diego, but at home, her mom's like, this is you know, the country they're from. This is where you are and that she said we ate food from her home country. Basically, my parents spoke the language. Then she goes then I walk out the door, I'm in San Diego going for tacos at the Mexican Stand. So it's almost like it really is, it really is, I feel like an important conversation to have, you know, a broader for sure, it's a broad topic, but I feel like a lot of us have that lived experience and I'm sure I mean, we've talked in the past, that you grew up in a small town...so these lived experiences are much more common than we think.
Meharoona 19:57
Yeah, definitely. We do straddle different worlds. And I was thinking about the word intersectionality. And how often how intersectionality is sometimes used in the context of identity. But I'm reflecting also that intersectionality for me also means broader than that, it's not just about my identity. It's about space, and geography and place, and how I navigate those spaces. And it sounds to me, you know, what you're saying is similar, because inside the home there's something else going on in terms of culture, or spiritual, or wherever my parents came from, and knowing the nuances of that, along with language, there's a variation of languages within our home. But then outside of our home, there's English is the dominant language. And then outside of the home, there's other various encounters that we are all experiencing in terms of diversity. There's a lot of people that at least I am meeting, when I lived in Vancouver, and also in Victoria, there's all kinds of people that I meeting who are of various intersectional identities. And with that comes their various life experiences and stories. So definitely, I think we're all navigating those spaces of pluralism....
Kim Spencer 21:39
...and then like you're saying, even say with a friend, we're from the same community grew up in the exact same place, same reserve, but completely different upbringings. See socio economic status, which, which is, is really sad to think about. And I mean, it's like that in say the cultural aspect, if you're raised around your culture, if you weren't, maybe you were raised in an urban center. So, it's like, we're not cookie cutter. And we're still all trying to, you know, healing, and doing the work and navigating these, you know, and everybody's in a different place to say, for example, I mean, I used to ignorance, sort of judge certain people, for whatever reason, and then it took me a long time to realize that we're not all going to be in the same place on our journey..... Oh, it just reminds me of a podcast that I was listening to recently, and the name of it, what is it, is it about St. Michael's residential schools by Connie Walker, and it's about the residential school system. And he says, not exactly like don't toy with this, you know, he said, there's a lot of people that still that haven't even come home yet. Like they're out there, and they're still so broken and wounded from residential schools, like they can't even come home because they're not in that place. And so how careful we need to be when we're speaking about or writing about those things. It's a very sensitive, delicate area.
Meharoona 23:45
Yeah, yeah. And something you said that's quite critical, important is that different people are at different places of their journey and of their healing. And, there is no cookie cutter, there is no cookie cutter approach.
Kim Spencer 24:04
And I definitely feel that now, even though my book, I got the people who are I shared about the most, I got their permission. They read it well before it went to be published. And so still, even though I got their permission, they were happy, they loved it, gave me their blessing. Now that it's ready, it's the soft launch, like I said, it's gone out there, my book baby's gone out there into the world, there's been tension, there's been a lot of emotion because of some of the stories that I've shared. So then I'm extremely sensitive person. Careful, like I feel like I wrote my book, with a lot of heart, a lot of integrity, even though, even then, I still have concerns, how is it going to be received? How's my family going to feel? How's the community going to feel? You know, I have had to sort of sit there with these emotions this last week especially. And, that's sort of the price you pay. Do you want to be a writer? Do you want to write something based on true life? True, story. So it is definitely been an adventure.
Meharoona 25:35
Well, it's interesting. What you're touching on is how your art is relational to yourself and to others. In some regard, in terms of the others, it remains to be seen. As you mentioned, you've worked with heart and integrity, and you're a sensitive person, and you are concerned and wondering about how the community is going to feel. So you are thinking about that. My question would be, what are you doing for yourself, in terms of ensuring some aspect of self care as you move forward, just for yourself? And is there anything you're thinking about in terms of the community at large?
Kim Spencer 26:26
It's a very good question. I've been like what's self care? How do I do self care? You know, just kind of ranting because everything's happening so quickly. And this is all in real time. So I'm like, I stopped drinking coffee for four days. That's my self care because I was so just wound up like a drum. And, but I feel like it really needs to be again scheduling that in besides, I mean, I do go for a run most mornings along the seawall, but I do that all year round all the time. But I think slowing down definitely, I've been trying to slow down. I've been following a lovely, lovely, who you know, is Chelene. Chelene, is it Knigt?...
Meharoona 27:17
Chelene Knight. Yes.
Kim Spencer 27:18
Yes.
Meharoona 27:19
Breathing Space. Yeah.
Kim Spencer 27:20
Oh, and I just actually recently thanked her for these nuggets, these little gems that she provides on social media, because otherwise, like I said to her, I reached out and thanked her saying, for a person that is new to the scene doesn't have a literary community, I'm just like, feeling your way in the dark. Couple of things she shared is like, oh, thank you, it's a little life line because I gotta get, I gotta get myself prepared. And then I think the other part you asked was about the community. And like I said, it was written with care. So I feel like it will be once the books read, it will be received well, and I feel like it's for the greater good. You know, maybe a few moments of uncomfortableness, for people.
Meharoona 28:18
And sometimes through our discomfort is where we can learn, all of us ... and I really applaud you for going down that route of discomfort and seeing what happens. And like I've told you before, if you ever need somebody to lean on or vent with or just even cry, give me a call. I'll be there for you.
Kim Spencer 28:43
Yes. And which you were. Which you were very, very helpful regarding around book launches. So yes, I do thank you for that, for sure. But yes, and see, that's where it's really important to be connecting. And that would probably be a good step for self care with me when I'm like, feeling a bit overwhelmed, to reach out.
Meharoona 29:06
How have you evolved through your art? Do you see an evolution for yourself? And how have you evolved?
Kim Spencer 29:16
I do. I do think that I've evolved. I think some feedback that I received for my manuscript once was about staying true to who she was, you know, not not watering down the message. I mean, I'm not knocking people over the head with a hammer, but they said staying true to who she was, with having some very important conversations or difficult conversations. So I feel like I've kind of always had that but now like I was saying about reading books, like the "Craft in the Real World" and even another book that I read was called "How to Pronounce Knife", she has a fantastic collection of short stories. But interestingly, she's a Lao woman, and what she said was in her collection of short stories, she doesn't ever say where she is. Doesn't see the town, you don't know if she's in Canada or the US, you know where she is. And she said, the reason she did that was to almost make it for the reader to be disoriented, to to feel like what it feels like for an immigrant coming to another country trying to sort of find their way. And I thought, that's powerful. That is so powerful. So I love these ingenious, you know, creative ways, this different style of storytelling. And, you know, another book that I read was written, it's called, it's like experiential, not experiential, experimental. You know, just a different style, just all kinds of prosy, like, it's a poem. And I like, again, in favor of those really short paragraphs or sentences. So I'm really loving learning that there's different way, this different style that probably maybe, is more in line with how, as an Indigenous people, like Indigenous people are natural storytellers. Stories are passed down orally, so maybe it's more in line with why it resonates with me why I feel drawn to that style.
Meharoona 31:44
Hmm, yeah, that is beautiful. What do you dream for? In terms of it could be your art practice, or more broadly? Do you have a big dream?
Kim Spencer 31:55
You know, how we used to have these 'Raise a Reader, Raise a Reader?' And, I've always thought about what kind of libraries do they have on reserves? I would love some kind of 'Raise a Reader' for Indigenous kids to get them enthused for reading, get them interested in reading. And I feel like if my book is seeing themselves in it can help, then that would be wonderful. And interestingly, a good friend of mine, what we chatted about, while I was still in the in the writing process, was I want my books to be read in schools. And now here, like I was mentioning earlier, I'm not sure if I shared it yet, but a teacher in high school sent me a picture of the stack of my books that he's received 30 books, oh, my class, and we've got our books for this semester. So that was really moving. Really, really moving that that's going to be study read in class studied, dissected. I've thought a lot about it. And I just even think about say for inner cities, say, you know, East Vancouver, there's a lot of social housing for Indigenous people in the area, and I thought, you know, I'd love to do those - 'give a book, take a book,' little library, little mini ones, you know, I thought imagine building one, putting one at Pender and Commercial drive, there's two native housings right across the street from each other. But what that would be like to have that in their neighborhood, having books about Indigenous people in them.
Meharoona 33:49
That would be amazing. Why not?
Kim Spencer 33:51
Yeah, so, so I really, I've thought a lot about it. And I think that probably there's a lot of work being done around that now. I hope anyway, I hope that that it's a focus on bringing in BIPO books for for kids on reserve.
Meharoona 34:10
I think that's a really good dream to have. See where it's going. See what exists out there. What new projects are you thinking about, if you're able to speak to your new projects freely, or if you have any in your mind?
Kim Spencer 34:23
Yes, I submitted a couple of picture books to my publisher. So one is about a residential school experience, but it's a little bit of a different experience because my family, nobody in my family attended the Indian residential school. So that's what that story's about.
Meharoona 34:52
Where can folks find out more about you? Your work? If you have a website
Kim Spencer 34:59
Hmm I do have a website it's a little bit bare bones but more than welocme to look up. It's 'Kim Spencer' it's at WordPress I don't sorry have the exact address. Yeah but I'm on Twitter "K Spencer Writes" on Twitter and "Kim Spencer Writes" on Instagram and you could look up BC Bookworld to learn more about my book for there Autumn issue has a lovely share about my upcoming book.
Meharoona 35:39
Wonderful. Is there anything else you would like to share? Any questions you might have of me or anything that got missed, anything you'd like to share further with with our listeners?
Kim Spencer 35:53
Oh, well, I would just like to thank you for inviting me to be here with you. This has been really lovely as always, I feel like I'm always learning from you, always enjoy our discussions. So it's been great.
Meharoona 36:10
I'd like to thank you so much for joining me today and being a part of this podcast and being my guest and I'd like to encourage people to look up and find Kim Spencer. Keep an eye out for her debut novel called "Weird Rules to Follow".
Thank you for listening to Raining Revolution, JEDI in the arts. For contact information of the guests or to listen to other podcasts, please visit CFUVpodcast.com
Transcribed by https://otter.ai