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We talk to the people that make the gaming industry happen, past & present. From casual players to industry CEOs. Gaming for the Culture is for the people by the people. Gaming mobile to VR!
Junae (00:01.71)
Janaye, you are now rocking with the hostess with the most. This is your girl, the natural hair. we got to switch it up because I just became an indie dev. The indie dev gamer Janaye Benet. And we are on Gaming for the Culture. And today we have a very special guest. My big friend, my new big friend, right, Glenn Henry. He is a indie developer from Jamaica and he's been doing this thing way longer than me. I've only been doing it for a month.
Glenn's probably been doing it for like 15 years, like who knows. And we are going to talk to him about the Jamaican gaming industry, like general gaming culture, Jamaican gaming culture, things like that, and hear what he's got to say about his own project. So Glenn, how are you?
Glen Henry (00:48.897)
I'm doing pretty good, I'm doing pretty good. Thanks for having me on the show.
Junae (00:52.334)
Yeah, I'm excited. I think we're due. I feel like we're due for like a conversation that'll probably take like three hours. So I said, whoa, why not do it here? So then I told the people a little bit about where you are. Do you want to give us a background of like how you became an indie dev in Jamaica? Like obviously you live in Jamaica, right? Like, I'm not going to ask you how you got there, but like give us, give us a little bit of a background.
Glen Henry (01:01.313)
Very very like
Glen Henry (01:22.209)
Okay, so I was born and raised in Kingston, Jamaica and How I ended up falling into games is that when I was attending University Let's see University of the West Indies. That's our that's a big University in the Caribbean. It's cross island I saw eventually saw like the movie In The Game the movie which I
has not aged the best, but I saw it and it kind of inspired me. It kind of showed that, hey, you can begin making games where you are. So that's what I did. Popped onto some forums, did some research, and just started like mashing pixels together. I was already kind of artistically inclined and I was doing a computer science degree. So like, it just made sense. And then...
And we were just joking with this earlier. One thing kind of led to another, and then suddenly I find myself as an indie dev. So yeah, that's how SpriteWrench, which is the name of my studio, started. And that's what I've been doing pretty much in some way ever since.
Junae (02:41.07)
What was your major before or like?
Glen Henry (02:44.617)
So it was computer science. It was just computer science. That was a focus. That was a major. Graduated and everything. But it was always trying to see if like, can make the gaming thing, you know, work. How does that work? How do you get paid? How do you get things in front of people? Like, because before that, the idea was always that if you wanted to get into the gaming industry, right, you would have to migrate. You would have to...
Junae (02:49.39)
Okay, okay.
Glen Henry (03:13.377)
10 university abroads, like Full Sail or DigiPen or somewhere like that, that's gaming focused, and then somehow, somehow, in quotes, magically end up in the industry, right?
that that was kind of the ideal if I really wanted to seriously like pursue like that way but that always felt like I would not be making games until like I wouldn't be allowed to make games until like Way down like there's way more knowledge I need to get before I was allowed right like after seeing the movie and after getting like familiar with all these other people who are kind of just Making games in their bedroom
kind of inspired me to this, like I don't need permission. I can just start. Yeah.
Junae (04:05.23)
So when you were doing it, how many other people were also like, hey, I want to make games. What was the support system like for you in school, in the university?
Glen Henry (04:16.193)
so in school there are when I was in the university, it's like first or second year in like a like a three year degree. they were there was a lot of other students who were interested, like they actively want to learn how to do it. so everybody was kind of working together to find tutorials on things, but for one reason or another, people didn't necessarily like finish. the lecturers and professors,
Also, we're interested in it, but it's not their job and it's not their primary focus. So some of them were like very supportive of it. And I was like, hey, that's a very cool thing you're doing. And then others are like, but where's your assignment though? So that was a thing after uni, after graduating, I kind of went into a traditional IT job, but still kind of just working on side projects for a while. And that was...
my journey for like.
Glen Henry (05:20.417)
Six, seven years, it was just working on my projects on the side, figuring out how to actually publish things, teaching myself about how the Steam publishing pipeline works. And over that period, I eventually found other people who were like, okay, they want to make a serious run of this, right? So people like Graham Reed of Graham of Legend. I have another friend named Robert. And...
Robert Morrison Jr., who makes some very cool mobile projects. We eventually found each other and that group basically became the seed that started what we're calling the JGDS, which is the Jamaica Game Developer Society, which is really this free -form collective of people who are interested in game development to varying degrees, from hobbyists to professional to canon.
like support each other and kind of grow things and try and make a Caribbean game industry happen. Because it's loose. It's not formalized. A lot of people are kind of just like, they're looking for like the hero, quote unquote, to like make it big, like just showcase, like this is what can come out to the island. And then the hope is that like,
if we can identify somebody that I can spotlight and support them, boost them, it would encourage other people to do so, like get into it. And what we've seen is that a couple of the universities like UE, I'm not sure if UE has a program yet. They may be in talks, but I'm not sure if they have a program yet, but Utech, University of Technology, which is the other university out here, has recently started a game studies program. So they do have a game design.
elective that you can take up and run with, which is progress. But now the idea is how do we translate all of that into like jobs? How do you translate that into paid work? How do you, what happens next? Like, and yeah, that's a very brief and very loose summary of the game industry in Jamaica. And yeah.
Junae (07:44.846)
That's really interesting. You answered one of my questions, which was, you know, how does the support differ from when you started until now? And I have seen like the Jamaican Game Development Society, I've seen their Twitter and I thought it was like a Wollipop people. I thought it was like a lot of people in it, you know, and then you're like, it's me, Robert Grimm. Okay, okay.
Glen Henry (08:04.129)
No, like that's where we started. Like, no, no, I think the discord has like probably 400 people, but like it is like a spread of like how many people are like super active. Like, you know, in any discord, you're gonna have like 10 people who are like, they're all on the time. And then a bunch of people who are lurking, like that's kind of where we are. But yeah.
Junae (08:11.022)
okay.
Junae (08:18.798)
Yeah.
Junae (08:23.47)
Yeah.
Junae (08:28.238)
Hmm. I do love that though, because I have never went to school in Jamaica, but from like experiencing the culture, I just imagine people being a lot like that teacher who's like, where's your assignment? Like, you know, good, good for you. Great. You know, do something for real. Like anything like that. And so I'm really proud that you have somebody that like, you know, supported you and believed in you because it really just takes one. So.
With that being said, you obviously haven't moved from Jamaica. You stayed there and you know, you made it work somehow. How many games do you have under your belt right now?
Glen Henry (09:11.509)
Like not counting jam games I have four released and two under development. I am
Junae (09:24.142)
How many is it with it with gamjames? Gamjames? What the? Game jams!
Glen Henry (09:27.141)
Game jams. Game jams? Game jams. I think I have like... If I include the game jam games, I am confident I'm forgetting one. There's like three or four more added in there just like floating around somewhere. Yeah. Yeah. So we're looking at like probably like...
10 projects in all of starting and that's 10 with like many asterisks because there might be like a project that depends on what you're counting as like a project because some of them would be started and like it moves and there's an idea and you know you can play but it probably isn't finished but who knows I might end up going back to them many years from now.
and finishing up, because that has actually happened. One of my projects, the project I released last year on the Pearl of Pirates, that started as a jam game from 2018. I really liked the idea, but I wasn't sure how to wrap it in a theme. And that eventually became this retro, futuristic AI project called...
on the parallel parrots, which I'm exceedingly proud of and it's still kinda weird how many of the connections that that game has. Cause...
Junae (11:01.294)
Is that the one you had at the mix collective at GDC?
Glen Henry (11:04.577)
Yeah, that's the one I had at the Mix Collective. Because the name of that project is based on a research paper by a Dr. Timnit Gebru and a bunch of other researchers, and that is speaking about just the dangers around some of the... I'm about to nerd out, apologies. Some of the dangers around large language models. And because I did that game, a friend of mine...
Randomly saw saw her in New York showed her the game. So she knows aware of the game And if you go to I think The dare what the da IR which is the Institute that she runs The Distributed AI research Institute I Think it's linked off of one of their sites one of them, which is weird. I
I also got to meet her when she came to Jamaica for The game not game there program of summer camp that she did last year, so Weird connections attached to that game So yeah She was a part of it she was one of the electrons
Junae (12:18.254)
Did she host the program or was she a part of it?
cool. Nice, nice, nice, nice. Yeah, I think that's cool. I love the story behind the game, especially when it's not like, I like money, you know, which indie devs, I don't know who really say that. So I get it. I get it now, right? The one game jam that I did that ended like three days ago. I'm like, yeah.
Glen Henry (12:46.881)
Yeah, that might become your magnum opus like two, three years from now. Who knows? All right.
Junae (12:51.118)
Yeah, and I feel like games are like paintings, right? So maybe you did start this in like 2018 and then it's just now getting finished up. I think, right, it being completed, you know, circa 2024. I think that's really cool because then you've been able to like, look at it, redo it, look at it, put it away, complete something else after doing that, look at it, cut like, you know.
And I think it's always cool when there's like a deeper meaning, especially for like the game that I just did that takes place in Jamaica, which it just made sense to me, right? Because the topic was the Melanated Game Kitchen and Black in Gaming, Big Bite Jam, where the theme was collective power and the food item because Melanated Game Kitchen is always dealing with like food items in their game jams.
from beef patty. So I'm like, yeah, this makes sense, you know, and then it's like, okay, well, if it's beef patty, this is how my mind was working. I'm like, if it's beef patty, it needs to incorporate like Jamaica, it needs to incorporate the values like we look at what's all about how many people won, like that's collective power that makes total sense to me. And which I just said, out of many people won, and we're little, but we're tall, but we're big. So.
you know, incorporating that into it and then building it out. And literally some of the art that's used our pictures from like that I took that I took in like 2006, like my very first trip that I remember that I was like conscious of and have memories. I use those pictures that aren't as references for the game. And I'm like, how freaking cool is that?
Glen Henry (14:24.737)
Mm -hmm.
Junae (14:41.102)
You know, like, how cool is that? And so I'm really excited to like build it out and then be like, this is mine. Like, I mean, all four of Jamaican people that are gamers are probably going to play it and understand it and be like, wow, this is so cool. But you know, it, it's mine. And I also learned that, you know, not to be too invested in the game to where you don't do what's best for the consumer or for like, you know, your audience. How do you.
balance out being like, this is what I want to do. But also this is like a, this is a feature that I could insert or like a conversation that I could insert. That's really going to help bring in more people. So you're not so niche.
Glen Henry (15:25.505)
Yeah, there's definitely like this weird balancing act you kind of have to do with any project like Because like I said, it's it's like a painting it's it's a Art process even if you don't necessarily agree on if games are art I do think games are art by the way, even if you don't necessarily land there There is this weird
give and take with the process, greater process where you have to consciously decide, okay, how much of this of myself am I putting into it? And how much of that are you comfortable diluting for the sake of like accessibility? Or, you know, you don't want to necessarily model the message or, you know.
just a bunch of commercial considerations on top of design considerations on top of everything. And one of the things on that note, I keep reminding myself when I'm making some stuff, it's OK to have an opinion. It's OK to say something with your work. It doesn't have to be necessarily right or wrong, but you can just straight up have an opinion. And like,
on the same pirate game, a short name for pirate game, because the name is very long. I had to be okay with planting my flag regarding the whole AI debate, right? Because it was one of those things where I felt like, am I qualified to speak on this? Am I qualified to say a message? Am I what on all that stuff? But at the end of it, after doing a little bit of thinking on his like,
You know, it's my project. I can say that I don't like how certain things are going, and this is the mode that I want to comment on. And that's fine. But yeah, definitely resonate with that kind of balancing act of how much of yourself you put into a project versus like watering things down.
Junae (17:38.414)
I can understand that. I have seen games that do something like, for example, I'm not going to be coded with it, I just don't remember the game. When I first started reviewing games in like 2013, 2014, a game came out by a French company where it was talking about like slavery or something and then it was a mini game and then you had to fit...
Africans, the Black people in the boat like Tetris. And when I first wrote it, I was like, they're talking about slavery. And then I was and then like, as I got older, I was like, isn't there a better way that they could have done this besides making it a mini game? You know, and and they I don't know, they're they're French.
Glen Henry (18:12.129)
gosh.
Junae (18:35.022)
So I can't even start to be like, like I know there is a lot of like Africans, Black people in France. So this also prompted like my documentary because initially I wanted to talk about like Black people in gaming, Black women in gaming. And then I was like, if you're going to Europe, you're going to get like four and then your documentary is going to be over in like four minutes. So I widened it to women, you know, but like it's like if game companies don't even have women.
that they probably don't have Black people, you know what I mean? On like the scale of like, with it being like a white man and then like, you know, like white women and like Asians, Latin people, Black people, LGBT, like, you know what I mean? Like on the list of people that should be included.
Glen Henry (19:10.241)
Thanks.
Yeah.
Junae (19:27.918)
If they come after white women, like, you know, they're probably not going to have it. So they're going to do these, these, these things that are wrong. But guess what? It got produced and published anyway. So I definitely agree with you about that. And even you saying that makes me feel better about the game that I made when I was doing the interview. You know, I was like, I didn't grow up in Jamaica, but I remember going through the streets of Jamaica when I was visiting.
Glen Henry (19:37.249)
Yeah.
Junae (19:55.758)
And the last time I wrote something about Jamaica, this Jamaican lady got on Twitter and was like, you're not even Jamaican. And I was like.
Junae (20:07.278)
And so it did make me nervous to try to do another piece, even though I know what I'm talking about, right? We're gonna get off topic. We're gonna sing on topic, but we're gonna get off topic really quickly because there's this discourse of this man going around doing reggae, doing dance hall, doing these things. And he's on a podcast telling a girl like,
Glen Henry (20:14.561)
Mm -hmm.
No.
Glen Henry (20:21.089)
Mm -hmm.
Junae (20:34.542)
I'm more Jamaican than you because you haven't been there. And it's like, what did you say? Like you can't talk to people like that, especially you cannot talk to people like that. I know that we are in a diaspora war and many people are like, you're not this. And other people are like, everyone is welcome to our culture, even to our detriment. I get that that's what's happening.
Glen Henry (20:55.233)
Mm -hmm.
Junae (21:04.622)
So it's hard to like, what to do pieces, you know, because my household is Jamaican at the end of the day. A lot of these things that I experienced in college, like living with a roommate going, what, what, what is that? What are you talking about? What, like, you know, even to not even being able to fully, it's so funny that I came out as a journalist because even fully not being able to communicate because I'm using Patois.
because I never learned the English word for something. And I'm in the store asking people for a pine action and they don't know what I'm talking about. I'm like, please, where is it? Things like that. And then I make something and it's like, ugh. But even you saying that, it definitely helps to be like, I can make whatever I want, right? Well, not whatever. I mean, I could make whatever. I won't make whatever, but like.
Glen Henry (21:47.297)
You get it.
Glen Henry (21:58.977)
It's perfectly fine for you to put yourself into your work. That's a point of art. That's a point of being creative. And regarding the whole diaspora war, I try not to put my foot in it because I already got caught in some issues as well at one point. But realistically, how I feel is that Jamaican culture is very rich. It has this cachet globally.
Junae (22:04.782)
Yeah. Yeah.
Glen Henry (22:27.585)
that people want to be Jamaican or like adjacent to being Jamaican or stuff like that and it leads to this weird like division behavior because that issue even happens within people who are from the island right so like like people on the island nothing like like when I say from the island I'm talking about people who are like here so like you're not considered Jamaican if your skin is too light.
or stuff like that is like you're not the same and and
Glen Henry (23:06.145)
what I think we need to kind of do or what would be really cool. Let's see, it's like if we are just a little bit more...
Glen Henry (23:18.673)
like open to the idea of people interacting with our culture, sharing their experiences with our culture.
and just celebrating it. People like it, let them celebrate it. People are all over the place. The diaspora is widespread. I don't remember the figures, but there are a lot of people that are, like yourself, Jamaican, but they are part of the wider diaspora. And they contribute. They have their experiences in relation to the island that is just as valid, just as important.
Glen Henry (23:59.841)
And I think just that being open and receptive to that kind of back and forth makes things so much more interesting.
to me that makes things a lot more interesting rather than trying to hold fast to this very rigid box of what a Jamaican is. And I say this as a dude with dreadlocks. Yeah.
Glen Henry (24:28.897)
because I remember having a conversation with a couple friends of mine and this was for a panel that we did for Path Findings where we spoke about like what is cultural? What makes a Jamaican game Jamaican? And one of them pointed out something very important to me it's like you are a Jamaican so by definition any game you make is is Jamaican.
Junae (24:54.99)
That's exactly what my friend said about having like Black art. He was like, your art is Black because you're Black. You know, you don't have to do something that feels Black to make it Black. And I think all of like the Alt (alternative) Black girlies are Alt (alternative) Black people like appreciate that, you know, because they don't have to, you know, be like,
Glen Henry (25:00.769)
Mm -hmm.
Glen Henry (25:17.057)
Yeah.
Junae (25:22.606)
I got to listen to like metal and trap. But when you put metal and trap together, it's appreciated on like a higher level, like on a higher form. So I agree with that.
Glen Henry (25:34.401)
I think as creatives, I think it's a lot more fun to, rather than treat these things as like boxes and rules that you have to follow, as in like just guidelines. You can play in them, right? Your art that you make, it's Black art because you're Black. But you can also pull from the iconography to make interesting work. I have like a rule, like even...
It's not really a hard and fast rule, but even for my work, for my projects, they may not always have like a Jamaican character in there, like, or based in Jamaica or something like that. But there is a little bit of spice in there. I think like one of my projects, Grimantonic, one of the characters that you end up meeting is supposed to be like a half West Indian.
Like she's from the islands or half of her is from the islands her father And then the other half is an elf why not because I can okay, it's my brother
Junae (26:44.59)
Yeah, I agree with that. You know, I think, I think because it's a part of us, it's going to come out in some way, right? Specifically for Taloa, I did do it like a, like a restaurant sign, like the, like the title screen kind of looks like that restaurant side where they always use it all three of the colors, you know, and it's like a bit more bold, but I did that because I felt like that's what that was right for this. Like the other game that I'm producing,
Glen Henry (27:03.809)
Mm -hmm.
Junae (27:13.87)
it would technically be not Jamaican at all. There's nothing, there's not like a hint in there like of like Jamaican culture. And I think I agree with you. I think that's fine. You know, I think it's important for me not even to like prove myself or to do anything, but because I do have ties to Jamaica to try to always present it and like truth and light.
you know, and in solutions, like the game, because they were like, it's supposed to be environmentally friendly and about beef patties. And I was like, how am I supposed to do both? But, you know, my memories of Jamaica being filled with garbage along the highway, along everywhere, there's like so much garbage everywhere. And I don't like that. You know, I don't I don't like that at all. And it's like, OK, well, let's put that in there. A higher theme, a higher issue is like government.
And you know, the locals not having access to some of the things that the tourists have access to, you know, but that's like a whole Assassin's Creed game, right? Like that's a different, that's like a different genre, different missions, you know, different goals and things like that. So I have things that I want to say to promote activism in that way, but also I want to do a full, full stuff too. Sometimes I just want to run around and do nothing, you know, sometimes I just want to like make it fun. And I think.
Glen Henry (28:20.577)
Mm -hmm.
Junae (28:37.422)
There's always room for both. There's room for both and even one thing, you know?
Glen Henry (28:45.217)
Definitely, definitely. Yeah. And again, artistically, like we've kind of went on weird tangents, but like artistically, we're free to explore them. Like there is another game done by, currently in development by two brothers from Jamaica. I think they're from Montego Bay actually, it's called Street Boy. And...
They've done a very good job of kind of replicating like just a seaside town. And I think the premise for the game is like some more unsavory elements like crime and gangs are kind of moving into the area and changing things bit by bit. And you're a teenage boy running around dealing with that.
And I don't think they've done a lot to like shy away from that setting shy away from that, which is pretty good. But you know, if you talk to certain people, like certain investors who are very concerned about public image, they're probably going to tell you, probably don't do that. Right. Because people don't necessarily want to speak or think about some of the more negative aspects of things that are happening on the island. Because the garbage, for example, that is, that is a thing that is definitely a thing.
And that's tied to like so many like socio -economic things. Because it's like when you start digging into that, you're going to find out, the reason why the garbage situation is as bad as it is is because you have a lot of like informal settlements that are alongside the gullies, which are the channels that run through the island. And because they're informal, they don't have like proper...
Sanitary sanitary systems in place like a garbage truck or anything like so what did they do with their trash? Chuck it in the gully And then that just gets carried out to sea But there are a bunch of other little initiatives and things that are cropping up that can kind of come in to help like I think there is like one of the big larger firms on the island is working with these other environmental focused organizations to set up like
Glen Henry (31:04.865)
traps, so like a mesh trap at the mouth of the gully to kind of catch all the garbage and stuff like that and they're doing analysis and a bunch of boring but important work around the stuff like that. So it's like even just talking about that, like I'm talking like, this is what's happening and this is the good that's happening out of it and like my brain, my game dev -pilled brain is stuck. Now I'm like...
Is there a game there? Like that would be cool to talk about. How do you work on that? But that's the reality of like my context. That's the lens that I live through. And I'm not going to yoke anybody else's lens. And if they want to take the time, the effort and everything to put their work out there, right? Yeah. So like your experiences with your with Talewa, which again, I'm not sure if I said it, but I like the name.
Junae (32:01.774)
You can't say it wrong, because you can't. Yeah, you can't say it wrong. That's my favorite part, because a lot of people have been like, tell. And I'm like, yep, because what every way you say it is still going to come. It's going to come out right. So that's like my favorite part. But thank you. Thank you.
Glen Henry (32:03.617)
I like the name.
Glen Henry (32:18.377)
Like just dealing with a narrative that's sent to their own dispersant experience in this small part of the island as you remember it. Like there's nothing wrong there. That's brilliant.
Junae (32:34.734)
I agree, and she's from Mobe. So, you know, just doing it like I remember, doing it like I remember. So, yeah, I think I can't wait till there are more games, right? Like I think through video games, and this could be a reaching statement, I think through video games and anime, we can have a proper...
depiction or at least begin to piece together some of the cultural and historical things that are happening in Japan and Asia. I think that's fair because there's so much about it. There's so much media out there about it. And I remember a while ago, my cousin made a joke because she was like, nobody knows what Jamaica looks like unless they come here because you can't look us up on Google Maps. And that was a while ago.
Glen Henry (33:28.097)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, like it's [Google Maps] okay for the major areas, but like if you start going like Like off out of outside of towns and outside of main highways you're going to You're gonna you're gonna be in a warm time. Like even well well trod places like I was going up to the Blue Mountains There's a camping grounds your call Holywell First time I've driven up there, right?
Junae (33:33.134)
Yeah.
Glen Henry (33:58.786)
And I decided, hey, let me use Google Maps. It sent me on the worst possible route, right? And it at one point is like turn right and right is just empty air.
Junae (34:20.846)
Nah, they're trying to send you over a cliff. They're like, yeah, if you go this way and drop 600 feet, you'll be there.
Glen Henry (34:24.385)
You know, it's like... It's like, you've reached your destination. I mean, the middle of the road.
Junae (34:31.406)
my goodness. Yeah, like that could be better, you know, and I and Jamaican people, Caribbean people, the Black people, African people, people, people are creative. You know, they're creative. So it's not like somebody hasn't thought of this. I think in some cases, they don't get the chance to write, they don't get the chance to share their idea. They don't get the chance to do this, that, you know, or we could all have like,
Glen Henry (34:32.769)
Yeah.
Junae (34:59.406)
a better way to help society, the economy, but we are like also in survival mode. And so it's like, I want to make a game, but like something, you know, something came up. I have to do this. I have to do that. Or like, I want to sit down and be creative. I want to make, activist art, which is just art in general, anything that people are like, Hey, that's not going to be a good look. It's activism. And you should absolutely push more to do it because that means people need to see it to start the conversation. And so.
I would like to see more pieces from these places that we've never heard of. Right? Like it's funny because I think people think like Montego Bay and Kingston are like right next to each other. They're like, what's the big deal? Like I'll just fly into Kingston. And it's like, okay, you're gonna learn what with a big deal is pretty soon, you know? And I think it would be because I have written a screenplay. I've written a screenplay for a rolling calf and
it didn't get picked up because they didn't really get it. But they were like, you know, if you want to do something that's like not in the US, it'll be less expensive. And I was like, OK, let's do something about rolling calf then. Like, you know, it's like a coming of age story type of thing. And if you don't know what that is, wait till the movie or the game comes out and you'll learn what it is. You know, but it's like that's a good story because it's so random.
You know what I mean? It's so random. It could be a little bit like scary and things like that. But not because I don't I don't really do horror. So it's not going to be that scary. But, you know, like that's a cultural story. Right. And, you know, I think there is like a bit of a difference with like Anansi. But, you know, I think people associate Anansi with like West Africa, too. So there are some stories about Anansi, but not like really. And, you know, I'm just not into the like just it's not all the things that we have to do. Right. It's not all like scary things, ghost things like we don't have to just keep doing that. But, you know, it's just.
Glen Henry (36:49.889)
Yeah.
Junae (36:55.406)
sharing the culture that like we all know and that people are getting to miss out of you know what I mean like what if somebody gets adopted from Jamaica and they never get to like like learn about their culture what they're supposed to do watch dance hall videos we only know about our culture through like spice and vibes cartel like there's there's not more there's not more you know and so that's what I want like that's that's what I want you know I want to talk about like
the Irish influence in Jamaica. Like that was huge. Like when I went to go visit Ireland, you know, they're like, yeah, like we, we, we know about Jamaica. And I'm like, I didn't know.
Glen Henry (37:28.833)
Yeah, like St. Elizabeth and I don't remember where, so like they're pockets of like these transplant population. And then even like Curry. Like people don't understand like when you speak about Curry, like in Jamaica, in Trinidad and Tobago, like it's a big deal. And like, it's almost his own thing separate from like, from India. So all those things like.
Junae (37:54.958)
It's different and it would be nice, you know, it would be nice to explore it in a way where like one you don't have to do the labor, right? Like somebody's like, Glenn, tell me about the difference between curry and blah, blah, blah. You're like, go to Trinidad. I don't know. I'll tell you about Jamaican curry, but you have to go to Trinidad. You have to go there, you know, like, so I started making like Jamaican food because I just felt like my area didn't have any and like, you know, being like, hey, if you guys want to buy Jamaican food, like I'll make it for you because I can find all the ingredients.
Glen Henry (38:11.169)
Yeah.
Junae (38:24.558)
And then I posted it on LinkedIn and somebody was like, yeah, I heard Jamaican people eat doubles. Me and Avangama double it in my life. And so, you know, I'm not trying to be like funny. I was just like, hey, I think that's more popular and like Trinidad. And then this Trinidad lady came and was like, yeah, that's really like an us thing. And I was like, yeah. I was like, I'm sure Jamaican people have it, but they're not going to eat it probably like Patsy. You know what I mean? They're not going to eat it like that. But like.
Glen Henry (38:48.417)
double z's trini, patty, us, yeah so yeah it's it's all good it's all good
Junae (38:59.118)
Yeah, I think it would be kind of funny also to visualize like these diaspora wars like maybe there's just like a mini game where you're like, what's Trini? You know, what's Barbados? What's Tereka? What's this? What's this?
Glen Henry (39:10.017)
Are you arguing for a Caribbean version of civilisation?
Junae (39:13.134)
Yes, yes, that'd be so great. And then they have the boats. They have the boats that have to go from like place to place. my gosh, we're doing it. It's official now. Yeah, because then people would learn, you know, like everyone's always learning about like, I feel like we don't know everything about the Greek gods and Gratises. Like, you know.
Glen Henry (39:16.033)
no. no. You have the entire curve versus the Tainos. no. That would actually be kind of cool though. All right.
Glen Henry (39:33.793)
We don't. We don't. We don't. And just to circle back, even though the ghost stories, the Dopey stories, right? We know some, but the people who would know it, know it. Those are your grandparents, your great -grandparents. They only know it from telling the stories. It's just oral. So if it's not documented, you're not going to know. One of the projects that I currently have in development. So I have two. I have Sunken Stones, and I have Dopey Detective Tasha.
Junae (39:46.062)
Yeah. Yeah.
Junae (39:50.99)
Yeah.
Glen Henry (40:03.681)
I was trying to do some research around ghost stories, folklore. I couldn't find a book anywhere. The book I found was written by a British fellow who heard the stories from his Jamaican nanny.
Junae (40:19.054)
And you know they're so accurate. You know they always get it right. You can trust them.
Glen Henry (40:21.633)
Ready?
So that's a book I found and then there's a couple other books like on JSTOR or other places. And yeah, it's tricky tracking that down. And then I know that, you know, if I could just like.
Junae (40:26.99)
Yeah.
Junae (40:40.75)
You know what we gotta do, Glen? I heard this, I heard the solution from someone else. They said, whenever you have like a computer question, you go to Reddit and you type in and then you go, you ask it on Reddit and then you go into another account and you say the wrong thing. And so somebody could be like, no dummy, what we have to do is make up our own ending and our own stories. So somebody can go, no, I asked that how we do it, this how it go. Like that's what we have to do.
Glen Henry (40:42.113)
Mm.
Glen Henry (41:09.089)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Junae (41:10.734)
Yeah.
Glen Henry (41:12.705)
I don't remember that was actually codified as a rule. I don't remember what the rule was, but like, yeah, like the method, like post the wrong answer and then wait until somebody corrects you.
Junae (41:18.606)
Okay.
Hmm. Yeah, I think, you know, I think it's very possible to do that. Let's move on to the gaming industry as a whole, right? We want to talk about the gaming industry as a whole. We're in a time where like there are just thousands of layoffs. I think it's gotten to 10 ,000. I think it's gotten to 20 ,000. I think it's gotten to like 30, but I could be misremembering, right? I think there's a number somewhere and it's definitely got a comma in there. Like,
Glen Henry (41:31.201)
Glen Henry (41:43.809)
I just know it's huge.
Junae (41:51.278)
What is your take on the state of the industry? Like, do you think that, I don't want to put words in your mouth. I just, what is the state of the industry? What does that look like to you?
Glen Henry (42:05.889)
so it's weird. So as an indie, I'm like, I am a part of the industry, but I'm like, I'm existing out of force of will kind of thing. Like my little pocket exists because I'm willing it to exist. Right.
But I definitely see that there is a contraction of just everybody is kind of doubling down or taking less risks and such. I know firsthand that it's kind of influencing publisher talks and things like that. So if you're looking to try and get some funding for your next project, you might have a warm time going into like 2026. But.
It's very sad because we're just seeing a bunch of people, skilled people, talented people, like end up leaving the industry. And these are people who are established and it kind of makes me wonder and worry for the people who, I guess, look like me, who are coming from like the fringes really to try and be a part of this industry that has suddenly, that was already hard to get into, has just suddenly gotten like way, way, way harder.
And then the only way I could own advice I could say is like, okay, do the entrepreneurial thing, do the indie thing. But even that is tricky because you need to have savings and you need to have either a funder to come in and cover things because you're basically going to be working on a project without any income from said project for a while. Right. And even releasing games in this environment is also.
really really really tricky and really tough because discoverability is a continuous issue like on the storefronts and getting people to see your projects is really tricky and then you're also competing against this huge backlog of games like when you release your project depending on your how you look at things you're either directly competing or incidentally competing against them so like why are they gonna pick up your indie game for 15 dollars when
Glen Henry (44:21.217)
You know, Elden Ring and everything else from last year, all the brilliant games from last year is still in the backlog, right? So it's tough. I've heard other people say that basically just hold fast to like 2026. Everyone is kind of knuckling down. But at the same time, if you're an indie and you've kind of looking at the landscape and you say like, okay, yeah, this is not it for me. I don't blame you.
I've had friends who've kind of just like they've done everything they've shipped the game and then they're like, yeah, that's it. I'm out. Let's step back. I don't blame them if that's the case. And as a result, it's kind of hard for me to like put myself in a position where like if somebody like a student asked me, like I want to get into the game industry. What should I focus on? I'm like, I don't know what to tell you. I can tell you focus on a portfolio, like work on stuff, getting used to finishing stuff. But in my head, I'm like,
I don't know what to tell you to like in terms of like where to apply to or what to look for because like the short term view of the industry is not looking super, super, super great.
Junae (45:36.366)
So with that being said, do you think who has it worse in the long run? AAA or Indie?
Glen Henry (45:50.433)
If I had to pick a side, I'd say AAA has it worse in the long run. Mostly because Indie exists because Indie wants to exist. Indie projects don't have to justify themselves financially to the same degree as AAA. AAA, you have hundreds of employees working on a project and that project better make money or suddenly all those people are laid off.
whereas an indie project would be like a group of 10 people coming together to finish one project, like kind of like an art thing. And if it works out, great. If it doesn't, yeah, right. That's more on in the indie sphere. The AAA, they're losing so much talent right now that I genuinely think that there will be a drought of great games in the short future.
Junae (46:33.358)
I...
Junae (46:47.342)
It's interesting because hearing what the Finnish game industry people think, they think that right now is a great time to start a studio, right? Like as like an indie person because AAA is kind of closing these acquired indie studios and they are losing a lot of people, but we are not seeing...
Glen Henry (47:09.153)
Mm -hmm.
Junae (47:16.462)
a lack of games released, right? Like we see games that are like canceled or they're like, well we started to work on it. And I believe that it's mostly from AAA closing indie studios. And indie studios or the person who started it or the people that are a part of it, I don't think they're just gonna stop making games. I think they might have to pivot.
Glen Henry (47:20.129)
at least right now, yeah.
Junae (47:44.078)
And maybe they can't make that same IP, like they can't make that same game because it probably belongs to like, you know, whoever acquired them. but I think that we are going to still see some like cool projects, like you said, you know, that has like a piece of people in it. And we're going to see some good stuff, but we might just have to wait a bit because, you know, going from your own indie studio to being acquired, you know, you thinking that it's the best thing in the world to then being.
let go. I think you'd need some time to bounce back from that, you know. Yeah, I think AAA is a bit to blame for what's going on right now. Because of the the over investing during like the pandemic, and then not really having a way to scale it and kind of promise those numbers. They kind of just, they, they, I feel like,
A lot of people treat the gaming industry like the stock market right now, or they did and they were like, money, money, money, money. Okay. It's dying. Give me back my money, but it's dying because you're going to pull your money. It's dying because all that money that you guys gave for DI, you're not continuously like putting into it, you know, in a time where people say they're thirsty for like non white straight protagonists, like cis male type of thing.
Glen Henry (48:47.777)
Yeah. Yeah.
Glen Henry (48:53.217)
Yeah.
Junae (49:13.646)
So I think, Envy is to blame, you know, like I am, that doesn't mean I'm gonna like completely stop playing my games. It just makes me hesitant to buy more games. Like I've never been the person to continuously buy a game every time it came out. Like at first it was like Assassin's Creed and then we saw starting to send it to me. So I didn't have to buy it, but like, I think that's a game that I would play every year.
and I just never been the one to like over consume games like that. And so, you know, I can totally understand what you're saying. Like, Hey, people are like indirectly competing with like a backlog. Like I went through my backlog. I don't think I have anything left. I'm like very proud of myself for that. so, but I have been focused on fight, like my whole career has actually been indie games. So like, this is kind of.
Glen Henry (49:46.625)
Mm -hmm.
Junae (50:08.654)
important to me because that's how I started. I was like, yeah, you know, I want to play the indie gamers. I want to boost them. I want them to know that someone cares about their work. Like going to PAX, R -I -P -E -3 and PAX, I think PAX closed something. I don't remember, but you know, and going to like the smaller indie places and things like that, like that was exciting to me. Like I know everybody wanted to be invited to like Ubisoft and PlayStation and like the Xbox thing, but I'm like, let's talk to the indie devs. Like, because they're going to be here. You know what I mean?
Glen Henry (50:16.993)
Mm -hmm.
Junae (50:37.646)
Like if everyone decides like, Hey man, there's no Ubisoft tomorrow. Like that's it. That's it. You know, or, you know, same thing with like Xbox, because I saw an article, I don't know how much stock to put into it, but it was just like, you know, the console, not even like a console war, but they're like, yeah, you know, Xbox might be dying. This thing is dying. This is doing that. This is doing this. And, you know, especially my concern.
with indie devs is the concern right now that more and more people want to own their games. And then indie devs have this, like, you know, their main producing, their main distribution system is digital. And so it's like, if indie devs could start giving out like physical things, I know that's like a whole nother bill after we just talked about like not having money. I think that that would be really helpful, you know, but I know, I know that's hard, but they are.
Glen Henry (51:28.673)
Mm -hmm.
Glen Henry (51:35.169)
Mm -hmm.
Junae (51:36.75)
raising up a bunch of people who don't care that things are digital. And us older people are like, I want to own my things. You know, like I saw this TikTok of this girl saying, even when she buys a game, she starts to like, put it in her system, and then download the game to make sure it's like your game. And I was like, you know, I never thought about that. I never even thought about that. You can't just like plug something in without using the internet. And that's so wild to me.
That's like really, really well to me. So they kind of already been like doing that to us.
Glen Henry (52:06.849)
Yeah, entire generation is like trained on that. But yeah, there's a lot of little things that probably need to kind of be investigated and addressed. Like there's a consolidation in AAA, the whole acquire file shut down.
kind of cycle is really depressing. Like I said, we both said the same thing effective about Indies. They always come with more interesting things and they always are going to be there regardless. By hook or crook, an indie dev is going to indie dev. But things may slow down a little bit because people are either transitioning from AAA or funding situation, et cetera. And then as an industry...
there are concerns around preservation. Owning your stuff, I think there are a handful, I think it's limited run, I think they do physical media, but they normally do that only for the big, big projects. I think physical media for stuff is still kind of an issue. I think I saw somebody was making custom, he was calling them mixtapes.
But they're really just like a USB and like a tape disk thing with like a slide of the game. And then that's what he was selling as a physical copy of his games. And he was offering that service to a couple of indies, which was cool. Like you just have a little, right? But yeah, I don't know, man. Like there are so many weird barriers that you don't think about when it comes to making games.
because I realized we haven't even spoken about like travel, like travel to events and stuff like that. So like, yeah, nah. But yeah. We're in interesting times. This is kind of feels like a massive shake up around everything. And it's going to be a minute before we see things kind of settle and then see what pops out of the, out of the, out of the ground afterwards.
Junae (54:18.798)
I agree with that. I studied film for a little bit and I kind of always equated video games to film because during the Great Depression or any time that's been hard, US at least, right? Like the American soil, there has been the movies. Like...
Glen Henry (54:30.945)
No.
Junae (54:39.79)
people would always continue to spend on entertainment, right? And even that's like a shift now, right? With like the streaming systems, movies costing like $15 a person, things like that. And I was hoping that the industry would like learn from like the movie industry, the gaming industry would learn from the movie industry and like implement like diversity early on and just be inclusive, right? Have like inclusivity and with...
kind of have like a little bit of better practice since they have like an example. They have an example of like what they shouldn't do, what does work, you know, and they have the space. They have the space to kind of they had the space to kind of do things differently because it is gaming and it was very niche and only the weirdos liked it and only people with very specific tastes were into it. So they had the opportunity to be that's
This isn't the best example, but they had an opportunity to be like Tumblr before it was like Tumblr, right? Like they have the opportunity, the freedom to like really connect with the people and things like that. And then because they're hiring people, you know, who used to run like Nike and Kellogg and this and that, like, it's going to look more corporate -y. And I understand that business needs to be business so people can make money so we can continue to make things that we need.
I just, you know, like, I feel like if you do this in the art world, they would throw tomatoes at you. I think like, you know what I mean? Like there are artists who like sell out and they do this and they do that and they paint like, you know, a blank canvas for like $3 trillion and whatever the case is, you know, but I felt like if the practices that are in that cycle that you talked about of like hiring, acquiring, firing, shutting down.
And the art world, it would be like, wow, man, like, this is not, you know, what we set out to do. We set out to make a difference because at the end of the day, video games, their art, their storytelling, their form of activism, or their form of sharing ideas, cultures, and opinions. And, you know, people can then do with those what they will. So, yeah, it's kind of sad.
Glen Henry (56:43.169)
Mm -hmm.
Glen Henry (57:02.625)
Yeah.
Junae (57:03.662)
It's kind of sad, but let's not end on a sad note.
Glen Henry (57:06.609)
No, we're not I was gonna say not in the third note like we have to also have to also give kudos like yeah This is like this is the tough times of dark times or whatever, but We still see a lot of great games coming out We still see a lot of passionate people doing work and I'm going to trust that like that will always continue
Right? Like people are gonna be creative, they're gonna come up with awesome ideas and I don't see like the industry like ever cratering and disappearing completely. Especially now that we have all these tools that basically allow people to just make like paint with pixels kind of deal. Like they can bring their interactive dreams to life and I don't think that can ever really be taken away from anybody.
Junae (57:47.438)
Agreed.
Glen Henry (58:05.345)
So indies are just going to continue indieing and because of that there will always be more things to play.
Junae (58:14.158)
I agree with you. It has become very accessible for everyone to make a game, which adds to over -saturation, but still we will get... I think in the time that we are of the age of the internet and social media, I think we are just over -saturated with things, but I'm very happy that gaming is accessible, or to make game development is accessible. Unity is still free.
Right? Usually it is still free. Like people can kind of connect with other people and be like, hey, like let's put this thing together, you know, in a game jam or outside of a game jam. So I am happy about that.
Junae (58:57.198)
That was a lot. That was a lot. This is a, that was a lot. I feel like we had a very good conversation. What do you think about the conversation, Glenn? Was it a good conversation?
Glen Henry (59:07.681)
I think it's a good conversation. We touched on a lot of things. And yeah, I feel like this was a good chat. Like we definitely need to link up chat more. Like there's a lot to unpack about like cultural exploration and the industry and just like, you know, how we can kind of survive as Indies. Like there is a lot to unpack there and kind of scratch the surface in this chat.
But yeah, I definitely appreciate talking.
Junae (59:37.166)
Yeah, I want to unpack all of it. Let's just lay it out on the table and see what's what and see how we can support the cause. You know, let's come with those solutions. If there's a problem, I want to solve it. So yeah, it's been really good. I appreciate you coming and talk to me and, you know, unpacking some things. I know a lot of the things that you said today are going to get people thinking and agreeing and...
Hopefully it comes out with some think pieces, good or bad. We just want think pieces, people. We just want people to think something and join in the conversation so that we can make this a broader conversation. Kaleida, is there anything you want to say before I wrap this up?
Glen Henry (01:00:22.497)
No, I want more conversations around this if you get, if anybody listening to this, you know, thinks that I'm completely off base or you completely agree with me, or you just want to, you know, compliment my hair. You can find me on social media of your choice. I'm at SpriteWrench, Sprite as in the soda, Wrench as in the tool. On...
Twitter, I refuse to call it X. Threads, Instagram, Blue Sky, yeah. Too many social media platforms.
Junae (01:00:58.286)
We're everywhere because we have to be. We never know what's going to go down. So we have to be like, I was already there. So I get it. I just joined Blue Sky and I have two tweets. I don't even know what to call it. I'm like, it's a good platform for a journalist. So maybe I should use it like that more. But honestly, it's exhausting. Like I posted on Twitter yesterday and I was like, what the heck? Like I don't even have it on my phone. I was like, my gosh. Like.
Glen Henry (01:01:25.729)
Yeah.
Junae (01:01:26.542)
Here we go again, so. Anywho, Glenn, thank you so much for joining me today. This is the end of Gaming for the Culture. If you guys have any comments, questions, feedback, or anything like that, please feel free to hit me up. Let me know if there's something you wanna talk about or someone you want me to talk to. I will reach out to them and do my best. And until next time,
game safely, please continue to wash your hands, okay? Wash your hands, wash your butts, wash your sheets, just wash everything. Wash, do all of it. Wash your mind, scrub your mind, right? Scrub your mind of all of that stuff. And I will talk to you guys soon.
Glen Henry (01:02:07.905)
Be clean.