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The GGJ Podcast brings the spirit of Global Game Jam to your headphones, with people from around the world sharing how they found their way into game development. Each week, Susan Gold talks with developers, studio founders, and festival organizers about the twists, risks, and side doors that shaped their paths and communities. You will hear honest stories about creativity, collaboration, failure, and the messy, beautiful reality of making games.
Wayfinder | DarionLowenstein
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Intro
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[00:00:00] Susan Gold: This is the GGJ Podcast, a show about the games industry, the people who make them, and the communities that grow up around them. I'm Susan Gold, a game education Trailblazer and one of the founders of the Global Game Jam. Each week we will be sitting down with a new guest highlighting their own path and journey.
[00:00:26] This is a space. Our honest conversation from Makers about creativity, collaboration, failure, and the messy, the beautiful reality of making games. So whether you're a young dev or seasoned, an educator, a student, or someone who just loves games and the people behind them, welcome to the GGJ Podcast. Take a breath, settle in, and let's hear directly from the makers themselves.
[00:00:49] Shirley McPhaul: This episode is made possible in partnership with the Global Game Jam, the world's largest game creation event. Bringing together creators from around the globe. A big thank you as well to the Global Game Jams. Headline [00:01:00] sponsors, epic Games Games for Change and Ex Sola for helping make this creative community a reality.
[00:01:06] To learn more and to get involved in the upcoming jams, visit global game jam.org.
[00:01:13]
Meet Darion Lowenstein
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[00:01:20] Susan Gold: Darion Lowenstein has spent nearly three decades shaping games across just about every corner of the industry. From early console games, in the PC titles to mobile hits, casino Innovations, and Web3 publishing. He's worked at studios like 3DO Company, Rockstar, San Diego, Electronic Arts, Activision and Scopely, and he's helped bring franchises that you've all heard of. And then beyond production, Darion ne has been a really visible public voice for games, appearing on major TV networks, creating and hosting the Game Guy tv, He speaks at GDC, Dice, Comic-Con, WonderCon, and he gets to go speak at the schools in [00:02:00] Los Angeles. He advises people now with Secret Code. and he continues to be a mentor for teams around the world.
[00:02:08] Darion . Welcome to the GGJ Podcast. It's a pleasure to have you here to talk about your path in games, taking big chances across platforms and business models, and how much you've affected and reached players. Thank you for coming.
[00:02:23] Darion Lowenstein: Wow. Susan, thank you so much. That was the best intro ever. I'm officially hiring you as my publicist. We're gonna go on a world tour, let's.
[00:02:32] Susan Gold: Well, I'm just so glad to have you. why don't you tell everybody where you're talking to us from, and what you're doing now, and what Secret Code is, and give us the basics.
[00:02:43] Darion Lowenstein: Yeah, I am, calling in from Los Angeles, California, where I have been based now for 20 years, which flew by. I am currently consulting with companies at my company called Secret Code, and essentially what I do is I help companies figure out how to be more [00:03:00] successful in games.
[00:03:00] And that ranges from IP holders like Dr. Seuss, where I help build up their gaming division, to helping smaller studios get their first publishing deal and get their first games out.
[00:03:08] So it's a wide variety from, fractional executive work to consulting. but it's really fun to work with companies in this sort of consulting manner because I get to choose who I work with and there are so many awesome companies out there who need people with tons of experience, but can't necessarily bring in someone full-time.
[00:03:24] Susan Gold: and you also do a lot of that mentoring for students at the different schools that you go and speak at. So that's always been one of those things where you are one of those people that has always made themselves available, and I really appreciate that. For an educator's point of view, it's, there's nothing better than having someone in the industry talking to your students.
[00:03:48] Darion Lowenstein: Yeah, I mean, I, I think it's one of those things where it's our duty to give back to the community. I think it's, it's our mission, especially as we get into positions of power of hiring, of leadership [00:04:00] in the industry to help, the industry bring up different voices that aren't always heard. and to just give people an honest, real talk about, Hey, like this is how my career happened. These are the highs, these are the lows.
[00:04:12] You know,I've been laid off six times. And a lot of times that was at the height of my career of launching a massive game. like at Activision, when I finished Transformers, which was one of my biggest consult projects ever, I got laid off at the end.
[00:04:25] So, you know, I, I try to speak, really just directly and honestly, especially to students of like, Hey, if you want a nine to five job, do not go into entertainment. Do not go into gaming. It's, it's not a fit. but here's the really great things, and then here's the things that the industry, you know, really struggles with.
[00:04:40] And I think that's really prominent in the news right now. And it's obviously very prominent on every student I've talked to the last three or four years. is there even a job for me in this space?
Darion's Journey into Games
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[00:04:49] Susan Gold: Understandably. Now, you finished school when you were very, very young, like high school, and you broke into the industry before. [00:05:00] Most people are even thinking about getting an after school job. So why don't you talk to me a little bit about that.
[00:05:08] Darion Lowenstein: You know, I, I, uh, I grew up homeschooled in the woods of Oregon. The nearest neighbor was about a half mile away. And, I just, fell in love with video games. they were my social outlet. They were my escapism. They were my entertainment, they were something that I, I did with dad all the time. We'd always play all of the great hits and PC hits of the nineties, And, as I graduated high school at 14, I, I knew that I wanted a career in gaming. It was a dream career, but I, lived out in the middle of nowhere, I didn't know anybody.
[00:05:33] So, I started reviewing games for local newspaper. My dad had reached out and said, Hey, if my son's really into games, can he write stuff? and so I started reviewing games and then, at 15 a company reached out and asked me to come help consult with a little web-based, game that they were doing, so twice a week my parents would drive me into Eugene, Oregon, the big city, an hour away. and I started consulting with them. And my dad, taught me a lot of great lessons, especially with my career. But one of the biggest lessons he taught me, when I was [00:06:00] young was he said, Hey, I'm gonna send. A letter about you reviewing games and consulting to the newspapers to see if they'll do some press on you, maybe it'll lead to a job. and to my shock and surprise, two of the biggest newspapers in Oregon came out and did front page stories on me. To this day, I really don't know why. but those stories ran when I was about 15 and two months old.
[00:06:19] and the next day, a company called Dynamics, which is part of Sierra Online, called me and said, Hey, we found these, this article in the registered guard in Eugene, Oregon where we're located. We'd love to offer Darion a job to come in as a tester entry-level, starting position where most people in the games industry actually start out.
[00:06:36] And, I said, that's great. You're an hour away. Can we wait till I get my driver's license at 16 in 10 months? And they were like, wait, what? Uh, uh, sure. I guess. And so, the day after I got my driver's license, I moved out of home and, started working full-time as a tester and started working my way up through the industry.
[00:06:51] So yeah, I had a very, very unusual start to say the least.
[00:06:56] Susan Gold: so this was before social media, so your father was [00:07:00] your social media influencer, is what you're saying.
[00:07:03] Darion Lowenstein: Dad. Dad was my first publicist and I didn't know it. And I, I think it was one, again, one of the many lessons of like, it's very common for us to shoot ourselves down and not go for something. Whether it's a lack of self-confidence, whether it's lack of belief, or whether it's just like, oh, like that could never happen.
[00:07:19] But I've had so many instances now in my life, in my career of it can happen. And so especially whenever I speak at high schools or colleges, I try to encourage people, just go for it. 'cause you really don't know, and the only way you a hundred percent lose is if you don't try.
[00:07:33] Susan Gold: 100%.
[00:07:34] Um,
[00:07:35] Darion Lowenstein: What pieces of that early story do you feel is the most important part of your oral history? You know, what do you think those things were that made you say, I could do this. I can show up, I can compete with someone who's so much older than me.
[00:07:54] so, so mom and dad really gave a lot to me, and I think with that they instilled a lot of confidence in, [00:08:00] in many things. And they also were very supportive in that, you go forth and you do whatever you want to do in this world and you work hard. And I think that, I, I knew things, especially entertainment would be hard because I didn't have connections. I didn't have a, a relative that is in a biz. but I always felt like if you work really hard, you can do anything. And whether that was a doctor or a lawyer, or. Some, other impressive career. I felt like that that sense of confidence was instilled in me. And I think I also had a bit of, fearlessness in terms of yeah, I'm gonna move out when I'm 16 and yeah, I'm ready to go tackle the world. Yeah, I'm gonna take a job as a tester and do my absolute best. And I don't know how it's gonna end up, but I'm just gonna push for it. And, within months of testing, I was talking to teams and I was like, how do I become a designer? I always want to be a designer, and how do I figure that out? And as I figured that out, you realize, oof, I don't know if I'd be the best designer, but I think I'd be a good producer. And I started going for that. So, I think you have to, especially in entertainment, you have to have a certain [00:09:00] tenacity to just go for it, because it's very easy to talk yourself out of literally anything.
Taking Risk
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[00:09:05] Susan Gold: I call it taking big swings and you took a lot of big swings and you didn't follow a neat degree to junior designer route. when you think about some of those early decisions or risks that you feel shaped you to become who you were, can you pinpoint them?
[00:09:22] Darion Lowenstein: I think it, you know, a lot of times it was a mixture of. Trusting my gut, paying attention to the signs. And then I've been very lucky in that throughout my career, I've always had a lot of mentors and I've very directly asked people who were far more experienced and certainly smarter in the space than I was, um, for advice.
[00:09:40] But there's, there were some good pivotal moments. So a big one, was when I was 18. I was still testing. I've been testing for almost two and a half years at this point.
[00:09:47] And I was tired of testing. It's a great job. It's a great entry, point. But I was frustrated with having little to no control over the game design,
[00:09:55] And I just felt like, okay, I'm 18 now. Where's my life going? And I enrolled in [00:10:00] classes in the University of Oregon and I enrolled in engineering programming, in Japanese. So two subjects that interested me and, I got laid off, the week before my classes started. And I had just gone to GDC and I had just passed my resume around printed resumes. 'cause this is the nineties and I'm old. and a company that I had spoken to, 3DO called me, the week my classes were starting and said, Hey, we're hiring associate producers in the external development of publishing side.
[00:10:28] I interviewed, they offered me the role, so I canceled my classes the day before I was gonna go in and start. And I think that for me, that was a, a very. Clear path because of all the information I collected at the moment, which was the incredible 200 artists, designers, testers, audio people, managers, et cetera, dynamics.
[00:10:48] They had all told me various forms of, I went to school, I have a degree in biology, I have a degree in English, I have a degree in this. But in the nineties, no game design, no game production, no anything was taught. So at that age, I took all that feedback [00:11:00] in and go, okay, I could go to college. I would've had to work full-time somehow and try to support myself and do that and then come out with debt.
[00:11:07] Or I could listen to these 200 people that are successful in the field that I just spoke to, that none of them have a degree. And they are all self-taught. And so I made the decision like, no, I can go and I could make a decent salary. I could move down to the Bay Area and Redwood City and work at 3DO, and work my way up to the industry. 'Cause that's what literally every single person in the industry I've talked to has done. And so that was a very clear, like, don't go to school.
[00:11:30] Susan Gold: I love the fact that you do not have a perfectly planned career and that your path, although it zigs and zags, it suits you, right? It's what you wanted to explore and change. and instead of getting locked into one identity, when you have the mindset, or principles of, of I can do anything, it's a lot easier than I [00:12:00] can just be a tester. I don't know where I can go from here. And the fact that you were so proactive, you went to GDC, you passed out your resume. In those days, those were the only times you could meet people.
[00:12:13] Darion Lowenstein: But it does not happen like that anymore. Like,
[00:12:16] Susan Gold: now you can really teach yourself at home, right? You don't need to go to school, although I love school, it gives you other skillset. But if you are going just because you need to learn a specific tool or hardware, there's so many ways to go about doing that now.
[00:12:35] Darion Lowenstein: that is something that, when I do speak at a college is, is interesting because I don't think the college wants 'em to say, I didn't go to college and look at my career. Ooh. but I also am very realistic whenever I speak to students at a college or out, like it's, it's a very different process for everybody.
[00:12:51] Not everybody's ready to go, start working at. 14, 16, 18, 20.you know, I'll, I'll never know what the college experience was like, but I don't think ever really a valid option [00:13:00] for me. But now there are so many great games programs. I've spoken to a lot of people that teach at, at USC, at UCLA, at these different, colleges that I've spoken at
[00:13:09] And there are so many awesome ways where you're actually hands-on not only making a game, but you're also getting help with job placement, with connections and networking. and I think given the difficulty that the industry has now with layoffs and finding a job in the space, I think a lot of those programs make a lot of sense if you're financially able to participate.
[00:13:29] Susan Gold: Yeah. And that is a difference between having the privilege to be able to go to school, but at the same time, there are opportunities for game makers out there that don't have that path.
Life at Rockstar Games
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[00:13:41] Susan Gold: but more than talking about that. I wanna talk a little bit more about your past.
[00:13:47] I wanna talk about your life at Rockstar in San Diego and what it was like to develop games there and what you learned what was it like at that moment in the industry? And talk to us a little bit about where you [00:14:00] were.
[00:14:00] Darion Lowenstein: You know, rockstar in a lot of ways was a dream come true, right? 'causeWho doesn't wanna work at rockstar? and it, that experience, that five years there gave what I refer to as a PhD in game development. It was a crash course in how to make a fantastic game.
[00:14:17] The way that I got into Rockstar, again, this is like the chaos of my career, but I think most people's career in games, which was, once again, I got laid off at 3DO theme. Uh, and, one of the artists that I worked with, Carlos, at 3DO had joined a company called Angel Studios in Carlsbad, near San Diego, California. And when I got laid off, I, of course activated my network. it's all about your network. And, I, I called Carlos 'cause we were friends and he said, Hey, we're hiring producers. Why don't you, send me your resume, email it over. So I talked to him and then, I met my first boss Lewis interviewed, they offered me the role about two months into being an Angel Studios. We were [00:15:00] acquired fully by Rockstar Games.
[00:15:02] So when they hired me, I didn't know it was gonna be Rockstar. I knew they had rockstar projects, but I didn't know where it was gonna go. and so I moved down to San Diego at 20, and I was the youngest production person they had ever hired, as you can imagine. and it was, it was a great experience, starting out on a project called Transworld Surf. Then I went on to a project called Midnight Club. Now these were, projects that, Angel Studios had signed with the publishers. And so I didn't work on my first actual rockstar game until Midnight Club 2.
[00:15:31] And so my reputation at rockstar was the shipper, which was when they were having problems getting something out the door they would bring me on to the last six months of a project, six to nine months. And so what that meant was for the majority of those five years, I was probably working an average, like 80 hour work week.
[00:15:48] I had very little social life. I was working pretty much morning till night every day. And then most weekends I would work there. So the crunch was really heavy. And this was, you know, the early two thousands when, EA spouse didn't happen until I believe about [00:16:00] 2004, which was the big debacle of like, Hey, this industry isn't healthy. You can't have a life. You can't raise kids, you can't get married. You can't do anything because all you do is work. And the pressure to work was so immense.
[00:16:12] so the, the, the last project that I did there was Table Tennis and Table Tennis was, a really interesting game at a very interesting time for Rockstar
[00:16:19] and it was, it was a super intense project. it started out as a PlayStation budget title and about three months in I got a call from Sam Houser, president of Rockstar Games and he was like, Hey, Table Tennis looks pretty good.we want it to be the launch title for the Xbox 360, so build the team you need go for it.
[00:16:38] So, that's of course a job of a moment. Like, oh crap, I've gotta a lead. Basically make the launch title for the Xbox 360 for all of take two and Rockstar. That's okay. That's not terrifying. so the team, the
[00:16:51] team,
[00:16:51] Susan Gold: 21, 22.
[00:16:53] Darion Lowenstein: I think I was 20, I think I was 23 when I got that call.
[00:16:57] Maybe 22 or 23. so it was, [00:17:00] exciting and also nerve wracking because, the pressure of being the lead producer on a, on a product like that, on a system that's still being developed, right? That's, that involves going back and forth and calls with Xbox. We gave feedback on like the early prototype controllers. We were getting dev kits that were the size of a file cabinet, right in their very early days of a new system.
[00:17:18] and, and Table Tennis was, it was a really fun project.
[00:17:21] I was able to be really involved with, all the things I love as the producer of the character design of design of, of the art. The team was incredible. The animation was incredible. The polish was amazing. The engineers, working on building the engine, that was what that engine was, the basis for the next Grand Theft auto, and then the next, red Dead Redemption, and it was, it, it was an awesome, awesome experience. It was also really draining.
[00:17:42] I would always call my parents on the way into work. And so to paint the picture of how much I was working, I would call them around nine or 10:00 AM and on Table Tennis, the first question they would ask is, are you going into work? Are you leaving? Because so many times the team would be crunching, working on a build and we would be sleeping overnight [00:18:00] underneath our desks for a few hours and trying to get some, build out, some milestone ready, some something, some deliverable. And so again, the hit on your personal life, on your physical health, on your mental health was very high.
[00:18:11] I remember distinctly again, I think at this point I'm either 23 or 24 at the most. I had, one of our head engineers pull me into a meeting room and he goes, Hey, I know we're working weekends. I know the game has to get done. But my wife came to me last night and said, if I work another Saturday night or Sunday, she's taking the kids and leaving me. And, you know, at 23, single, not in a relationship, no kids, no pets. I could work Saturdays and Sundays, And so at that age, I was very clear with people, your family's more important. Go leave. I will cover you. And there were a lot of difficult things that I had to deal with because of that. At one point, one of the executives pulled me into a room And this, this person was a very high ranking person within the organization and [00:19:00] started screaming in my face, saying. you absolutely cannot let people leave on a Saturday night like you are because the game's never gonna get done. And it was so loud that the entire team outside who's, working at this point is hearing this. And it's one of those things where you, you sort of go, okay, like what are my options? I can disassociate, I can take medication, I can run for the hills and quit. and I just, I, I tried to find the balance of. you know. How do I keep the team going? How do I keep people's health, and emotions and personal lives intact, and how do I make a great game?
[00:19:35] And that was where all of this really surrounded is, every game company I'm at, everybody wants to make a great game. Nobody wants to step out and go, oh, let's just make something average and get it out the door. So things have changed a lot in the industry since then. we are, I think, much more cognizant of people's lives now with social media and the internet.
[00:19:52] People are much more protective of people's time, of their weekends, And I think it's talked about so much. I feel like that has improved [00:20:00] hundreds, hundreds, of times over. But in that era of the EAs and the Rock Stars and the Xboxes these hours and that crunch was very common.
[00:20:09] So, uh, at the, at the end of Table Tennis, we got it out. I'm so proud of the team. Worked lit, literally worked their butts off and made an incredible game. And Rockstar taught me how you make some of the best games possible. How you don't sacrifice quality, how you listen to what people want or what you think people want. And you follow a true creative vision. And they, to this day, do that better than I think probably just about any other company alive. Uh, especially with the types of games that they make and the types of games they make are incredibly difficult. So I, I'm very thankful for my time there and all that. I learned about how to make great games. 'Cause it really did help guide me the rest of my career.
[00:20:47] Um, at the end of Table Tennis, they came to me and said, Hey, we'd really like you to work on the sequel to uh, Red Dead Redemption. which I'd been a producer on, And I was excited about that. But I was starting to have some health [00:21:00] issues at 24 25, and I knew that if I stayed it would get worse. And I was also worried about, like, I wanted to have a personal life. I wanted to have, a, a social life. I wanted to do more. And so, I, I, had been interviewing around an EA at this point. EA LA had just made an offer to come and produce, a new Command and Conquer franchise.
[00:21:21] And I called them up the next day and accepted the offer. And then I, I went to,you know, the heads of Rockstar. I was like, Hey, thank you so much. I'm, excited about Red Dad, but I don't think I have four years of crunch in me. Um, for me it was better to move on and try something new.
[00:21:37] And the other through line that you'll notice in my career is that I always tried to challenge myself with new experiences and new learnings.
[00:21:45] And I never tried to stay stagnant. And I knew that I had learned so much at rockstar, learned so much at 3DO learned so much at Dynamics, but I felt like I needed to learn more about the publishing side of the business, the marketing, the pr, the finance, [00:22:00] IP, like how you actually, build something and put a game out and get people to know about it and get excited. And I learned pieces of that at all these other companies. But I felt well at the time, this is the two thousands, somebody listening, rolling your eyes. EA was
[00:22:13] the publisher, like they were like the coolest kid on the block. They had some of the best games consistently coming out. And so I felt okay, this is a place where I was a publishing side producer,position, but I also was handling development. So I was able to not only work on like marketing PR very directly, as well as the overall org and kind of more administrative and production and executive pieces, but I was also able to actually have my hands on, building pieces of the game.
[00:22:36] So, hey, this is a great combination of some skills that are known. Then I think I'll learn a lot. And that was the, ultimately the reason to Le leaving Rockstar because I have had a lot of people, especially on my TikTok, like, why would you ever leave? Well, at the time it was a, it was a tough choice and it's still something I question this day, you know. My life would've been a very different path. Some ways, probably better, and in some ways,different, but it is, it's
[00:22:58] Susan Gold: so [00:23:00] much.
[00:23:00] that, that's the whole thing that I think really is the carry through throughout your whole career, no matter where you found yourself, you always took on new challenges and responsibilities.
The Role of a Producer
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[00:23:11] Susan Gold: You had to learn how to work with major IP holders. I mean,I've had to work with celebrities and I don't like it. So trying to deal with an entire IP, like the Simpsons or Tiger Woods or NBA, like how do you keep everybody happy? How do you get everybody aligned?
[00:23:32] Darion Lowenstein: That's, that's always part of the challenge of being a producer, right? And so people ask what does a producer actually do? Well, you're the person who's not only spending on the plates, but you're also making sure the plates are full of all the things they need, right? So you're running around across the entire team and depending on your position internally, often, and now externally, trying to keep everybody happy.
[00:23:53] And that could be figuring out why a designer doesn't have the tools they need to script a certain piece of the mission, or [00:24:00] why engineers been stuck on the same bug for three days when it was supposed to be a four hour task that could be calling the IP holder and presenting a milestone or flying out to the headquarters.
[00:24:09] And, as a producer, you're always ultimately the one you're in charge, but you're also ultimately the one responsible for everything. So when anything goes wrong, right? It's, it's you and you better have an action, a plan, and a strategy to go forth and, and fix it. And I think, throughout my career, I always tried to find.
[00:24:26] Not only how can we make a great game, but how can we make the team happy, make sure everybody has what they need, and then make sure that the outside people, whether that's the executive team making the decisions, the people writing the checks, the IP holders, they're happy and excited. And I think a lot of that you have to find the excitement and motivation of whatever you're working on. which, after 90 games, I think I've worked on pretty much every kind of title is imaginable and that's actually 90 shipped games. I've worked on a bunch that never saw the light of day, and some of 'em are terrible. I worked on a driver's education game as a tester where I had to memorize the driving rules of 50 states, Garbage [00:25:00] Land. it was not fun. But then you get to work on really fun stuff. But you know, you have to find the joy in whatever you're working on, whether or not it's your type of game. And I think that's a, that's a really key thing. And sort of the, your question of how do we keep everybody happy? You've gotta find that excitement and that passion and no matter what it is you're making, even if it's a game that you would never play, so that you can uplift the work and then make sure the people that you're reporting to people around you see the positives and the excitement and the path forward
[00:25:26] Susan Gold: Hm.
What Success Feels Like
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[00:25:27] Susan Gold: When you look back at over these 90 plus titles and the billions in revenue that you've generated, and the success and the money you've made, all these other people, Where do you feel like, is, is that to you, success? Is that the start of something else? What does that usually feel like for you?
[00:25:49] Darion Lowenstein: it's a great question. for me, I think a lot of my professional career has been about dream fulfillment and dream fulfillment of my youth. And so ,that [00:26:00] means things like working on DC Comics, with my dear friend Greg Goodrich, who I knew for 20 years. that can mean producing a fantastic game. like working with the Transformers, working with Hasbro and figuring out, again, with an incredible dev team. How did Optimist and Bumble Bleed meet? How did Star Screen get enlist by Megatron? What does Cybertron look like? You know, those types of things are so satisfying and it's outside of money or a meta critic or anything else. It's really fun for me when I know that I grew up with these characters I grew up watching these films and these movies. I grew up playing all of these games. And so to have, even a small hand, because sometimes when you're in management, you don't actually have that big of a hand in design in a direction.
[00:26:46] and sometimes you do. but I think, the happiness and success, especially at this point, I get, whether it's it's working with a big IP or it is helping a team succeed and get their first publishing deal or grow, and make a sequel and have their first game [00:27:00] come out and shepherding them along, and, seeing them find that success that I had earlier in my career is really rewarding.
[00:27:06] and I think, especially as I age and get older and live in this industry of chaos even longer, I get even more excited about that than maybe some of the projects that I have a very direct hand in.
Recognizing the Time to Pivot
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[00:27:17] Susan Gold: What was the moment in AAA where you realized you needed a new chapter, when things needed to look very different.
[00:27:24] Darion Lowenstein: So great question. once again, theme of my career. Great success, boom, layoff. I had just finished the biggest console title of my career, Transformers: War for Cybertron. Activision was the lead producer on it. I absolutely loved producing that project. I, got laid off right as the project was hitting Gold Master, and that was a blow to my ego, that was a blow to my conscience as a blow to my identity, right? So much of my identity, I think is my work, and it was really hard. And now this was, see this was 2010, so this is the [00:28:00] time when, the financial crisis had happened and there were just layoffs, just rampant throughout the industry. it, it was, it was very, it was very difficult to navigate because there wasn't a lot of hiring happening either.
[00:28:10] And now at this time, the iPhone had been out for, I dunno, a couple years. Mobile gaming was starting to become a thing. And EA, my former employer, was doing very well with mobile. They had bought a company called Jamdat and they, at the time were, had the most successful mobile gaming businesses.
[00:28:25] So they called and they said, Hey, we need a development director to come in and head up a whole bunch of projects. Would you like to come in? And I thought, we'll do this for six months a year and I'll come back to console. I ended up joining EA and again, you know, the lesson in life being just go for it and try it, I ended up loving mobile while I was there for about a year and a half, And I got to work on stuff that I grew up playing in the arcades, like NBA Jam. I got to work on big franchise hits like Tiger Woods Golf, and Madden, an NBA elite, and produce and direct another Transformers game.
[00:28:54] I got to work on really cool stuff that was successful. IAnd. It was a really great crash course [00:29:00] in mobile gaming at the time, which was developing, and people were still figuring it out.
[00:29:03] But I also realized, wow, like this whole area of the market is exploding while console at the time was, really, really struggling. and I, I never looked back. After about a year and a half at EA I had a ton, again, ton of great experience, worked with amazing people there, but I was starting to get frustrated with politics.
[00:29:20] Um, they had offered me a, basically like,much higher ranking position, sort ofjust below, like head of mobile studio position. And I said, yeah, absolutely. I wanna do it. I've been working hard, I'm ready to take it on. And so they brought in another manager, from a different division who didn't really know a lot about mobile games.
[00:29:39] Hey, can you train 'em up? I'm like, yeah, absolutely. So started meeting with this person and helping 'em along, and then. About two weeks into explaining that kind of how the mobile games business works, they said, Hey, how often do you want to do, one-on-ones? And I was like, wait, why would we do one-on-ones?
[00:29:53] And they go, oh, because, well, I'm the new head of studio So I realized that I had lost the position to a friend of [00:30:00] someone that I was training on how the business worked. And it was just this like backs stab blow of Hey, we're gonna offer you this. Just kidding, you're gonna train someone who doesn't know anything, but he's really good friends with someone. So he's got the role. That left me with, no bonus, no, like nothing. And I was just like, okay, this corporate situation is just not healthy. So I, again, started talking to people, and I accepted, my first VP role at a startup called Digital Artist, and I gave my notice at EA and I think they were, especially the head of studio at the time was very shocked.
[00:30:33] And I, I told them you can't treat people like this. And I think that, we've all have those stories and experiences and it happens a lot in corporate America. But I think, as an individual, there's many times in your career where you have to step back and go, I'm either okay with being treated like this or I'm not, they gonna take this into my hands or I'm not. And for me, I, you know, I didn't do something reckless and just quit in the spot. I got another job lined up a couple weeks later and I bounced. But I think that there's a lot of times in life where whether it's a personal [00:31:00] relationship, a friendship, a relative, or a job where you know you're being disrespected, you know, you're not being treated fairly and you have to walk away.
[00:31:08] And I think that, I was still in my twenties at this point, that was another good lesson of this is not right and it's not okay. So I'm out.
[00:31:16] Susan Gold: Well, you often chose risk over comfort, so I think that that is, one of those things that I attribute as a good thing. being able to stick up for yourself is one of the hardest things to do when working at a big company to being able to take care of yourself and leave with the respect you feel you deserve, I think is totally appropriate.
Experimental and Controvertial
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[00:31:39] Susan Gold: Without dwelling on any specific companies. I wanna talk a little bit about what comes next after mobile. I wanna talk about real money spaces, Web3, casinos. How do you decide personally, what's worth going into? Where's the risks, the [00:32:00] skepticism, and of course the potential in all of these more experimental and controversial areas.
[00:32:07] Darion Lowenstein: Yeah. You know, it's, that, that sort of, the next era of my career, the next basically, gosh, almost damn, almost 10 years, I basically helped build publishers. So, I learned a lot about the startup world and I learned a lot about taking risks and trying new things and, I think that, especially with something like, like entertainment and video games, there's always new things popping up: there's new methods of payment, there's new platforms, there's new systems, there's upgrades that change everything. So, game development in general, if anyone listening decides to pursue it. You have to be okay with constantly being challenged and constantly being involved. And I love it because I feel like if you have a crew in games, you're always learning. So I, I took a lot of risks. I jumped in,several years ago and tried a Web3 company and that was just an interesting experience in a lot of ways.
[00:32:57] I learned a lot about the [00:33:00] space. I'd say the biggest takeaway from that is that the Web3 community. Has the biggest focus on being involved and active and listening to the community than any other space and gaming. And that means like being involved in a discord and having direct chats with the CEO or head lead design of a project. Or you know, literally being very hands-on with the community in terms of communicating what's going on with the game and I think that was probably the biggest takeaway from that experience of how do we be more involved with the community as an industry that I think every console and mobile game company, quite frankly could do a, a better job of, um, and I also tried things like the gambling space. I, was at Scopely where I was,I forget the exact title now. It's been a decade. but I, I, was reached out to by a company called, Gamblet Gaming. And Gamblet came to me and said, Hey, we wanna make video games for casinos, and I'm like, cool. I don't care about gambling. Peace out. And they're like, hold on, hold on. We are essentially taking video games, making all original hardware, and we are putting 'em on casino floors so that we [00:34:00] attract a younger audience. So at this point I'm like, wait, you are telling me that I could bring arcades back to life where I essentially spent a lot of my youth and grew up in, and I could put arcade machines on casino floors and I could have a version of Street Fighter that you play to win cash.
[00:34:16] And they're like, yeah. And I'm like, oh, oh, oh, okay. and it was one of the biggest leaps in my career ever took. When they made the offer, I thought they were gonna offer me a chief publishing officer, VP of interactive VP of games, something like that. This is in my wheelhouse. And Eric Meyer Hoffer, who's the CEO of Gamblet, when he called me, he offered me the role of Chief Marketing Officer.
[00:34:37] Now, I was terrified because a lot of my career, I had spent time in PR and marketing. I had never been responsible for completely leading it.
[00:34:47] So when he offered me the role of CMO I was like, this could be the biggest mistake of my career. I could come in and just completely flub this, and I don't have a degree in marketing. I don't have even a single marketing title. And [00:35:00] I stepped back and thought, and you know what? I want to, I want to try this, I want to give myself the shot. 'cause obviously Eric saw something in me that I, at the time did not see in myself after many interviews. So I accepted the role and I jumped in and I ended up loving it. And it's one of my most favorite jobs I ever had. I was there for five years as CMO, and I was responsible for marketing, pr, publishing, business development, and licensing.
[00:35:25] So,
[00:35:26] I built up an amazing team and the only reason I could even do all those things is because, again, a theme of my career. I worked with incredible people.
[00:35:32] So, we ended up launching, these original machines that we built in hundreds of casinos around North America, and I got to have my hands in building machines.
[00:35:41] I got to,help figure out the design of the machine, the look, the interface, the feel, the user interface. and I got to go and help work with not only the internal games team, but I got to go source all of the external games. And when these machines launched, they were so innovative and so new that pe people, I think immediately would see [00:36:00] them and be like, huh, what is this? 'cause I'm used to a slot machine where you sit there and you hit a button.
[00:36:03] Well, I grew up with a controller in my hand, as did most millennials. And you know, slot machines were just never interested in me. I would go to Vegas,but I never wanted to gamble. And about a year in of being live in, in Vegas and Reno and Tahoe and a lot of other locations, our thesis was true in that we dropped the average age, of a gambler by about 20 years. So, we were doing this innovative skill-based gaming that very few other companies in the space were doing. And We were a team of,a couple hundred competing against teams of thousands with way more money.
[00:36:33] And so my role was not only figuring out how do we get great games on here. So I was going around and signing awesome games like, uh, Jet Pack, Joy Ride from Half Break, which had 750 million downloads, 'cause I wanted stuff that was immediately familiar. And so we'd work with these teams. We got cut the rope from Zep to lab. We made the original dealer No Deal Game. we got Pac-Man from Bandai Namco, of Japan, which was a dream project because again, dream fulfillment for young Darion .
[00:36:59] and we, [00:37:00] we really innovated the space. that whole role for me was also. I think very exciting because it pulled in every single skill that I had and it forced me to develop new ones, which is what I wanted at this point in my life. I, not only had to do all those titles I listed out, I also had to do, I was, I'm off in the face of the company, so I was doing TV interviews that were showing up all over, on all the major networks. I was being interviewed by everything from IGN and Entertainment Weekly, which had never covered casino games before to,New York Times and Financial Press, and Wall Street Journal. and it pulled me in every direction.
[00:37:34] and I went on to direct a bunch of live action spots, a bunch of commercials, and it was so much fun. But again, it went back to for me, how do I challenge myself? How do I learn something new? Partially directing was because I didn't feel like other people understood the brand and the vision that I was developing for the company, and it was also partially 'cause we didn't have any money. So it was sort of a forcing function of needing to do these things but again, I think all these things led to that being one of the most formative and most interesting [00:38:00] chapters of my career because it was so like scrappy startupy, and yet we were trying to change an entire industry from the ground up.
Advocating for Games
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[00:38:08] Susan Gold: Understood. Um. Darion , you've been a public facing. Game maker, and you've appeared on all of the major US outlets. you created Game Guy tv. Why is this important to you and why is explaining games to the wider world an important role you feel that you need to take on?
[00:38:30] Darion Lowenstein: You know, one of the frustrations I've always had with the games industry is I feel like even though we are bigger than tv, we're bigger than film. We are bigger than music. We don't have the respect that those industries have.
[00:38:40] it's very hard for a normal person to name a single game developer. Right?. and in, in inherently, we don't have the celebrities and stars that these other industries do. We don't have these iconic figures because people in this country especially don't really care that much. so there's a handful of names that gamers can probably [00:39:00] name, but I've always felt like games deserve more respect.
[00:39:03] there's not enough focus on the people that are actually making them the stories behind it.
[00:39:08] And that's something that I think until I. Either die or,retire, which I don't think I'll ever retire at this point. I, I wanna always put more of a focus on the people actually creating the content that we all love to consume.
Diversity in Games
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[00:39:20] Susan Gold: I understand. I agree. I have the same feelings.. You've been open about being a part of the LGTQ community and not always fitting this standard image of who people expect to see in leadership. When you think about students now, or people in their earlier career who feel different or invisible, what do you want them to hear from your story?
[00:39:48] Darion Lowenstein: I've, I definitely have had a lot of challenges in my career. but I think a positive note of that is that, the industry has changed a lot. It's shifted [00:40:00] entirely since I started. one of my teams at rockstar that I joined had 64 men and one woman. In the early two thousands, and that just, that, that just goes to the complete gender imbalance.
[00:40:13] Not to mention, there's, a large racial imbalance. the industry, you know, when I started it was very much like 95% heterosexual white men. and so I, I think the good change that I have seen in the last 30 years in this industry is that that piece has shifted a lot. and I love now when I go to an independent games festival or,the indie games area of GDC, it is largely something other than that, right?
[00:40:42] That serotype, I feel like is long dead. You still hear it in the news. You still hear about things like Gamergate or you still hear people say very stupid things when they're playing Call of Duty and screaming at someone. but I think the industry has not only improved a lot, but I think. A lot of people in power recognize the [00:41:00] importance of having different voices, and whether that's different voices for creators, that's different voices on camera, behind camera, behind the controller.
[00:41:07] we still have a really long way to go. The industry is still not nearly as diverse as I think our player base is. I think that certain voices are definitely not heard enough. I think that the industry as a whole, needs to improve that. I do think we're in a, a chapter where it is a good time to be yourself and bring forth different ideas. And my best advice to people is be yourself, because you're going to be the best game, developer, designer, audio engineer, artist, animator. If you're yourself, and the right person will recognize you for that. and the wrong people you don't wanna work with anyway. And I have learned that lesson personally. and it's a, it's a very hard lesson, but ultimately now I'm at the point in my career where I'm like, you know, if someone has a problem with something about me that has absolutely [00:42:00] zero effect on my work or them, I don't wanna work with them, I wanna go on, go on my own, on, on my own path.
Resilience Through Networking and Finding your Own Path
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[00:42:09] Susan Gold: So for the teams and the individuals you mentor now, what do you emphasize about resilience and staying in love with making games through layoffs and cancellations and shifting business models or projects that don't land the way you'd hoped?
[00:42:25] Darion Lowenstein: My advice is try to carve your own path as much as possible, and by that Find reliance, as best you can outside of a traditional, publishing deal.
[00:42:35] save money. don't spend what you have if you can. If, if you can scroll away 10% here and there. I always tell people you will be laid off if you work at a companyyou will be laid off. It just, it unfortunately happens to literally everybody, regardless of your position or your how great you are at your job.
[00:42:51] Try to find ways that you can, sustain and support yourself. And if you're going for, more corporate jobs where layoffs are more risky, [00:43:00] then try to always, build your network. I think networking is the biggest thing that saved me with the, I think now six layoffs that I've been through in my career, which is making great connections with awesome people.
[00:43:10] So we do, to get laid off. The industry's very small. It's very tight, and you can quickly navigate, network and find your next job if you have good connections throughout the industry.
[00:43:19] Susan Gold: It's so hard to get those, uh, connections. But, I think there are ways to go about, besides having a job in the industry, it's about going to the various meetups, the different groups and associations that are out there that all are trying to support game developers. and find new opportunities just by, mixing in and you know. Now if someone says something to you like, I don't see myself in the industry, what do you say to them? I mean, there's so many non-traditional paths at this point.
[00:43:55] Darion Lowenstein: one of my favorite panels that I do, is Alternative [00:44:00] Paths into the Games Industry, organized by the incredible Kate Edwards, and that's at Comic-Con. And she brings together really diverse group of people of all walks of life and all career types.
[00:44:10] And people ask that question in the industry. They're like, Hey, how can I break in and my, advice to those people is. all of us at this point in this panel, up on stage, or anybody you talk to, none of us have a traditional path into the industry.
[00:44:24] So you really have to find your own. And I think the key thing is that you have more access to tools, and self-learning than you ever have ever before.
[00:44:34] There's tons of free training on YouTube. There's tons of voices out there. There's tons of great podcasts where you can listen to people about their careers and how they got there. So utilize those. And if you can't find a job that fits you, start doing it yourself.
[00:44:46] Start building your own game. Go to a Global Game Jam meet people and offer to help on the site, on your evenings or weekends outside of your regular job and, carve your own path.
How do you Define Yourself?
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[00:44:55] Susan Gold: When you look back at teenager Darion , 14-year-old, and then [00:45:00] you look at, entering into the industry and then becoming AAA producer and then working in casinos, becoming an IP expert, and now you're consulting and you're really one of our community's voices. What's the through line through all of these things, all of those versions of you, what does that say about how you define yourself?
[00:45:21] Darion Lowenstein: A giant nerd love of gaming. I think, you know,
[00:45:25] you have to have a lot of strength of adversity and just going through the chaos and challenges of working in entertainment, you have to love what you do. You have to willing to go through these ups and downs.
[00:45:37] for myself, when I think about who I wanna work with now I think a lot of it does come back to like, how can I keep evolving? How can I keep learning? and how can I find amazing people to work with? Because at the end of the day, one of the things I like best about working in games is you work with creative, nerdy, silly, brilliantly smart and insanely talented people.
[00:45:59] And [00:46:00] that's like the, that's the best part of this industry is working with like-minded people.
[00:46:05] Susan Gold: What is the idea you hope listeners carry with them about designing their own career paths instead of waiting for a perfect opening? Because I feel like people are in limbo.
[00:46:19] Darion Lowenstein: You know, that's honestly that, that's the hardest part, about seeing the industry go through this major spiral right now is just, it's, it is very hard to get a job. It's very hard to maintain a job. Half my LinkedIn is people looking for work. So, I try to be realistic with people of, hey, yeah, it is a really hard time to get an entry-level job.
[00:46:36] There's very few entry-level jobs out there to begin with, and most of the industry, we're all trying to figure out like, is AI gonna take a lot of these? how is the next several years going to look? but again, I, I think that if you have a passion about this industry, you have more tools than ever to be able to build and forge your own path, and I think that the more rounded experience that you have, the [00:47:00] more viewpoints that you can bring into your career, the stronger that you're gonna be and the easier it's gonna be to find a job.
[00:47:06] And by that I mean you have had different positions, you've worn different hats. You have shown the, interest and enthusiasm to understand how other people's jobs work. And that's certainly a key thing I think of being, a producer. But I think of any role in the industry, the more you can understand about other people's jobs and what they need to do to be successful, what they, how they grew their career and how they work most efficiently, the better that you can do your job,
Don't be a d*ck
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[00:47:32] Susan Gold: Well it, but it also teaches you, you don't burn bridges on your way out. You know, that is another big thing about our industry because we're small enough where we know what each other has done at other studios, so it, it is really a reputational business and you have an
[00:47:49] amazing reputation yet.
[00:47:51] Darion Lowenstein: Well, well, thank you. But I, you know, I, I learned that early on when I was a tester and some people were, were mean to me. They were rude to me or they were very dismissive. [00:48:00] And I, I was, 16 when I started, but I probably looked like I was 12. So I get it.
[00:48:03] But, a lot of the career opportunities that I've had came from people that were under me at some point. and, reported to me,
[00:48:09] So I always tell people never burn a bridge. Be kind to everybody. 'cause the person that is, under you job wise and is testing or answering phones or whatever, could be a person who decides whether or not you get hired at a future job.
[00:48:26] So, don't be a dick.
[00:48:27] Susan Gold: Now, what are you working on in Secret Code or elsewhere that you're most excited about? And tell me a little bit about what's keeping you excited right now.
[00:48:38] Darion Lowenstein: Yeah. I, I, the thing I love about, running my own consulting company is I get to choose who I work with and I have some really awesome clients, right now that. Difficulty is, is that you're under so many NDAs that typically until a project's done, you have a 50% chance of ever being able to even talk about it.
[00:48:55] But in vague terms, I'm working with an incredible team right now [00:49:00] that, they were at a studio that was canceled and shut down, unfortunately, earlier this year. And they are a Phoenix rising from the ashes building an awesome new game, an awesome new project, and I'm lucky enough to get to work with them and advise them. It's a female led studio of brilliant minds, making a really cool game. I'm really excited about that one.
[00:49:19] There's another publisher that I've been working with, they've been struggling with a lot of their existing franchises don't appeal to Gen Z. And so that project's been really interesting 'cause we're trying to figure out how do we make, games and make these franchises appealing to younger audiences? And I think it's forcing them to listen to community more than they ever have before. and then there's a really big IP that I'm hopefully gonna be helping figure out its future, by doing franchise IP strategy and figuring out where do these characters and where do these worlds fit within games, And that's a lot of work that like I get excited about, I get passionate about, and especially when it's, characters that I've been obsessed with since childhood.
[00:49:57] it's really, really fun, to, to, to [00:50:00] work on those. And, and, and like I said,working with great people is ultimately like what gets me up and gets me, excited every, every day.
Where to find Darion
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[00:50:08] Susan Gold: Well, I really wanna thank you so much for your time today. Where can people follow your work or reach out to you if they'd like to collaborate or learn from you?
[00:50:16] Darion Lowenstein: Yeah, thanks Susan. my website is secret co dot uh, net, and I am Darion Lowenstein on LinkedIn. I'm Darion L on TikTok, and Darion L one on Instagram. Feel free to reach out if people have questions or comments or whatever. my website, secret co.net also has my, my email. but thank you for, for putting this podcast on.
[00:50:35] Thank you for shining a light in the industry. Thank you for helping people. 'cause it's, it's very much needed and it's awesome to see you spending your time doing it.
[00:50:43] Susan Gold: Thank you so much and I hope, sir, all of your dreams come true.
[00:50:48] Shirley McPhaul: Want to get involved with the G GJ podcast, we'd love to hear from you. Please send your ideas, suggestions, and questions to ggj pod@globalgamejam.org [00:51:00] and tell us who you think we should be talking to next. What stories or issues matter most to you about the future of games, and help us highlight the people and practices that make a sustainable, creative life and games possible.
[00:51:13] Thank you for spending time with us on the GGJ Podcast. This conversation sparked something for you. Please share it with someone who might find it useful, and don't forget to follow along so you never miss new stories from makers around the world. You can find more episodes, resources, and information about the Global Game jam@globalgamejam.org.
[00:51:34] Catch us on substack and on YouTube and anywhere else you find podcasts. This has been the GGJ Podcast. Thanks for listening and keep making games.