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You know that sinking feeling when you wake up with a hangover and think: “I’m never doing this again”? We’ve all been there. But what happens when you follow through? Sonia Kahlon and Kathleen Killen can tell you, because they did it! They went from sisters-in-law, to Sisters in Sobriety.
In this podcast, Sonia and Kathleen invite you into their world, as they navigate the ups and downs of sobriety, explore stories of personal growth and share their journey of wellness and recovery.
Get ready for some real, honest conversations about sobriety, addiction, and everything in between. Episodes will cover topics such as: reaching emotional sobriety, how to make the decision to get sober, adopting a more mindful lifestyle, socializing without alcohol, and much more.
Whether you’re sober-curious, seeking inspiration and self-care through sobriety, or embracing the alcohol-free lifestyle already… Tune in for a weekly dose of vulnerability, mutual support and much needed comic relief. Together, let’s celebrate the transformative power of sisterhood in substance recovery!
Kathleen Killen is a registered psychotherapist (qualifying) and certified coach based in Ontario, Canada. Her practice is centered on relational therapy and she specializes in couples and working with individuals who are navigating their personal relationships.
Having been through many life transitions herself, Kathleen has made it her mission to help others find the support and communication they need in their closest relationships. To find out more about Kathleen’s work, check out her website.
Sonia Kahlon is a recovery coach and former addict. She grappled with high-functioning alcohol use disorder throughout her life, before getting sober in 2016. Sonia is now the founder of EverBlume, a digital tool that offers a unique approach to alcohol recovery support.
Over the last five years, she has appeared on successful sobriety platforms, such as the Story Exchange, the Sobriety Diaries podcast and the Sober Curator, to tell her story of empowerment and addiction recovery, discuss health and midlife sobriety, and share how she is thriving without alcohol.
Her online platform EverBlume launched in February 2023, and was featured in Recovery Today Magazine and deemed an ‘essential sobriety resource’ by the FemTech Insider.
The company champions self-improvement and mindful sobriety, with support groups designed by and for women struggling with alcohol.
So how can EverBlume help you meet your sober community? By offering deeply personalized support. Members get matched based on their profiles and life experiences, and take part in small group sessions (max. 16 people). In your support group, you will meet like-minded women, discuss your experiences, and gain confidence, knowing you can rely on your peers in times of need.
Whether you identify as a binge drinker, someone who developed a habit during the Covid-19 pandemic, a high-functioning alcoholic, or an anxious person using alcohol to self-soothe… There is a support group for you!
Current EverBlume members have praised the company’s unique approach to alcohol detox. “No one is judging me for not being sure I want to be sober for the rest of my life” ; “I felt so heard and understood and today I woke up feeling empowered to make the change in my life”.
Feeling inspired? Learn more about the EverBlume sobriety community at joineverblume.com, or simply listen to Sisters In Sobriety.
Your sobriety success story starts today, with Kathleen and Sonia. Just press play!
Wait. Wait. Wait. Before we start, just wanna make sure we're clear here. While this podcast talks about sobriety, mental health, and addiction, it is not meant to replace professional medical advice.
Sonia:Welcome to Sisters in Soriety. I'm Kathleen. And I'm Sonia.
Kathleen:And we're ex sisters in law brought together in marriage and bonded through our sobriety journey. Join us as
Sonia:we talk sobriety, addiction, and everything in between. You're in for quite a ride. And our substack is buzzing with amazing content from creative mock till recipes to insightful courses and reflective exercises. There is something for everyone. Don't miss out.
Sonia:It's a great way to add some extra joy and depth to your journey. Check it out. So we are thrilled to have a really special guest with us today, of Positive Damage, which is a company of Positive Damage, which is a company dedicated to promoting mindful drinking and creating inclusive spaces for everyone, whether they choose to drink alcohol or not.
Kathleen:Derek's journey for being one of America's top bartenders, owning the award winning Columbia Room in Washington, DC to becoming a leading advocate for no and low alcohol cocktails is really, really inspiring. He has been recognized as a thought leader in the beverage industry, and his work has been featured in publications like Vogue and The Washington Post.
Sonia:So today we'll dive into his personal story, explore the concept of mindful drinking, and learn how we can all foster a healthier relationship with alcohol. So we welcome Derek to the show. Derek, can you start off just by telling us a little bit about your journey from being a bartender to a mindful drinking advocate?
Derek:You know, alcohol affected my life very early on. My father, identifies as an alcoholic and my foster sister died in a a drunk driving accident when I was about 5 years old. So all of this kind of led to this relationship with alcohol where, obviously, I had already encountered a lot of pain from it. But when I started working in the industry, it also became a salve. It helped me in a way cover feelings and thoughts that I had that were difficult.
Derek:And so through that, I just kept doing it. And it, you know, it was part of the industry. It was part of the way that we bonded. It was part of the way that we connected with each other. It was part of the way that we celebrated at the end of the night.
Derek:We relieved a stressful day. And so by the time I was bartending in my mid twenties, I was having drinks at the end of the night on a weekend in DC where which is where I bartended and I live. The bar shuts down around 3 AM. We clean up in 4 AM, we'd start drinking if we hadn't hadn't already had a couple shots behind the bar. And so we drink till 8 o'clock in the morning and it was sort of this vampiric lifestyle.
Derek:So it's like all of these forces for coalescing. And by the time I was in my thirties and I own my own bar and I was racking up all of these great accolades for the work that I was doing as a bartender, as a bar owner 2015 and by name me as a bartender of the year. In 2017, Columbia Room got the best American cocktail bar. By by then though, all these external facing awards were great but internally, I was a mess. And there was so much about my life that was just not, we'll say, less than op it was less than optimal.
Derek:My relationships, my health, my finances, and it was just because there's a lot of issues that I had not dealt with in my life, especially around mental health. And so it became a point where I had to I had to change my relationship with alcohol. And so I I end up doing that. And as a result, I went to an outpatient program. I started doing therapy using therapeutic drugs, learning more about health and wellness.
Derek:And out of that, I realized I didn't identify as an alcoholic per se although I certainly and absolutely had alcohol use disorder. What I realized is I could drink mindfully and so after a year or 2 and this is not something that I think is prescriptive for anyone but me. Right? So I just wanna clarify that for listeners. If you're like, okay.
Derek:Great. I've been a year off the sauce and it's time to start drinking again. Derek says it's cool. Derek did not say that at all. Derek said that about me, and that's it.
Derek:And so so I got to the point where I started studying about wellness. I got my certification as a wellness coach. I started studying positive psychology at UPenn and I I was in a much better place. And you know what? Instead of wanting to continue drinking, I just stopped drinking altogether because cause I just didn't need it anymore.
Derek:It wasn't an important part of my life and it was at the time that there was this exciting renaissance and no and low alcohol beverages And that's where we find ourselves now. So I'll stop there and pause in my story.
Sonia:So Derek, I know I've thought this throughout the years and I know a lot of the listeners have, which is maybe I could just have one drink. Right? And then I go through this, like, process of, like, well, where would I be in, like, a month or 6 months? And I I don't know. Right?
Sonia:And so how did you how did you decide to go from, like, sobriety to mindful drinking and then you went back to sobriety again?
Derek:Mhmm. Yeah. And I don't necessarily identify myself as somebody who is sober. I am sober in the sense that I don't drink, but I'm open to having a drink in the future. But I think that, you know, my process of identification is I recognize that alcohol wasn't something that I needed because of the alcohol, right?
Derek:I needed it because of some of my experiences, the mental health. In a sense, I was using it to suppress my feelings and thoughts. You know later I'd be diagnosed with bipolar disorder and so there is some correlation between that and drinking and basically, you know, because of my mental health issues, I drank as a as a type of medicine. And once I addressed those issues, I didn't really feel that I had to to drink. I didn't I didn't feel like I wanted to drink per se, you know.
Derek:So so I think it really came down to that need. I did not need a drink, and so I had the option to have one if I wanted it. Does that make sense?
Sonia:Yeah. It does. I think that yeah. If I look back to my own journey, it was I was self medicating severe anxiety and depression. And for me, even though those have resolved to a certain extent, I think it's only when I experience severe anxiety or panic attack do I actually feel like, maybe a drink would be good right now.
Sonia:So I get that.
Kathleen:Mhmm. I get it too. I get it too. I've medicated my ADHD with cocaine. So there's a stimulant.
Kathleen:Right? So that's what my medication was. So I I wouldn't say that I need it in the same way that I used to either. So I really relate to that Derek as well.
Derek:Yeah. Right. Again, this is my own experience and and there are statistics that there are a lot of people who have problems with drinking, stop drinking, and then are able to drink again. But I think that any each each person's recovery is unique to themselves. And so this is something I kind of just knew in my bones that I could have a drink and it would not lead me into another drink into another drink and so on.
Derek:So, yeah, the self medicating was a huge part of it. And and maybe this is like a weird way to say it, but when I needed alcohol, I needed it. In in some ways, it was helpful
Speaker 4:to
Derek:me and may have even for a brief time kept me alive.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Derek:But it was ultimately, it was a tool that just is not it's not the best tool. Right? And so eventually, it led to even greater problems. And so really when I say that I got help and I, you know, therapy and all this, I found better coping mechanisms
Speaker 4:is what it really came down to through things
Derek:like exercise and diet positive psychology and all of that stuff, reaching out to community, deepening my relationships, all of those led me to a place where I felt much better about my mental health and I was I no longer needed a drink and I no longer worried that one drink would lead to a second and a third and so on.
Sonia:And so what do you think one of the biggest challenges was for you personally in this journey to mindful drinking? Was it your career? Was it socializing? Was it relationships? What was the biggest challenge?
Derek:The biggest challenge along the way is that I had made an entire career. I built an entire life around alcohol. And in many ways, like I mentioned earlier, my whole life has been determined by alcohol from the day I was born. And so when it came to the point where I had to give up alcohol and address other things, it was very scary. You know, it was in many ways like losing a friend or a parent.
Derek:You know, like, it was losing somebody who had been there for me in so many situations. And so that that part of it was scary. Like, what do you do when you go out? What do you do when you're in a social situation? What do you do when you're stressed?
Derek:What do you do when you want to entertain yourself? All these questions popped up, but most importantly is when I'm having these thoughts and feelings, what do I do? And really, like I said, I just found better coping mechanisms. I I felt like I was able to address these issues that I had with mental health and all of a sudden, a new world opened to me, which is not all of a sudden magical and perfect. Alright?
Derek:I often caution people, I'm sure you all understand this very well but if you if you stop drinking or you stop doing drugs or you stop using substances, it doesn't all of a sudden make everything perfect. In fact, many of the problems you have exist and now you just have to face them. 1 of my favorite psychologists who talks about is a guy named Steven C. Hayes who founded Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, an incredible person, a renowned psychologist and somebody who himself went through panic disorder and how to deal with it, who has lived experience with mental health issues. He talks about facing the dinosaur, right?
Derek:Like in his dream, he would always have these dinosaurs chasing after him as a child and at some point, he turned around and faced the dinosaur and that he woke up and he found a new way to address that fear. And so, I guess that's what I'm saying is that in a many ways, you know, like you, when you give up drinking, it brings you face to face with yourself and your problems, but that's a wonderful place to be because now you can really face them, address them, and make changes that you need to be a better person to live a healthier life.
Kathleen:So I, Derek, I use acceptance and commitment therapy in my practice. It's my primary modality with individuals. Yeah. So I love Stephen Hayes. So good.
Kathleen:But I wanted to ask you about mindfulness because mindfulness is very much incorporated into ACT and when I work with clients, we definitely integrate mindfulness. I don't always call it mindfulness, but I wanna ask you about mindful drinking and what that was like. What does that mean for you, mindful drinking?
Derek:Sure. Well, the first thing is that in this case mindful might be more closer to the idea of mind the gap, right, to be aware of something, and that doesn't always mean in the present moment because sometimes it means being aware of your your history with drinking as well. So whereas mindfulness is usually an awareness within the present moment, mindful drinking might be close to that and incorporate aspects of that, but in general, my definition of it is that it is, aligning the way that you drink or don't drink alcohol in relationship to your goals, health or otherwise. Right? So, you know, whereas I think there's a lot of responsibility messaging that tells you, oh, you shouldn't drink because you're gonna do this is gonna happen to you.
Derek:You're gonna get, liver disease. You're gonna get cancer. You're going to end up addicted. You're going to crash your car. All these potential potentialities that are real aspects of alcohol use and especially, if you're drinking often, and a lot.
Derek:But that that kind of fear tactics, you know, like, I I think doesn't really work. So mindful drinking is saying, let's tie it to intrinsic goals that you have. Right? So these goals might be, I want to spend more time with my family, or I want to get my degree, or I want to be a skateboarding champion, which is something I wanted at some point in my life. So it could be any of these goals, and it could be any of your values or things that you believe about yourself and you believe are important.
Derek:That's where you want to tie your relationship to alcohol with. If it doesn't fit, then it's important to change your relationship to alcohol to match your goals. And sometimes it can be very mediacal. Sometimes it's just I have a meeting the next day,
Speaker 4:and
Derek:I don't wanna be hungover for it. I don't wanna have that brain fog associated with even 1 or 2 drinks of alcohol, and so I'm gonna go ahead and just drink nonalcoholic drinks or avoid drinking tonight altogether. And so I think that, you know, mindful drinking is not very prescriptive in the sense that this is how you drink. This is the way you should drink. All it says is you should be aware of your why.
Derek:Why do you drink? And then tie that to your values and goals.
Kathleen:How can people start incorporating mindful drinking into their daily lives?
Derek:Sure. I think that the very first step is is to think about your relationship with alcohol and again, whether it matches those values and goals. That can be I think, a a very common tool and a tool that people talk a lot about in sobriety and my for drinking is journaling. I do wanna make it clear that sometimes people don't like writing. You know?
Derek:Like, they're just not you know? They just don't enjoy the process of sit I love it, but I'm a writer. So it can be sitting down and doing, you know, Pinterest mood boards or whatever. It can the way I think about it is how have you been drinking, and how would you like to drink? Right?
Derek:And so kind of contrasting those two things. And, if they don't match, then you have to come up for a plan with a plan for how you're gonna drink in the future. And so the acronym I use that I created to address in that plan is called RATE, right? It's replace, avoid, temper, and elicit help. So in terms of replacement, that could be as simple as having a non alcoholic drink instead of a drink with alcohol when you go out, because I think it's important that we go out and be social.
Derek:Social wellness is critical to our health, even in in some ways more important, than whether or not we drink alcohol. And so it's important that you go out, spend time with people. So maybe just having an alternative, And it doesn't have to be an all or nothing too. You can, alternate if you want. You can have one nonalcoholic drink, one drink drink with alcohol, one low alcohol drink, one nonalcoholic drink.
Derek:Right? So sometimes that's referred to as tempo drinking. It's like to kind of keep in this place where you're not getting, buzzed or even annihilated, you're just kind of drinking with the flow of things, but you're also enjoying non alcoholic or low alcoholic cocktails too. So that's replacement, and there's lots of strategies within that. Avoid is also, you know, that you recognize that there are certain places that you're gonna have triggers you're gonna wanna drink.
Derek:Like, I don't know about you all, but going to a wedding is like a key one for me. Right? Everybody's drinking a lot in a wedding, and they're passing on the champagne to toast. It's almost obligatory to drink and so it feels and and often they don't have nonalcohol alternatives, so it can be really hard. Now I don't want you to skip your friend's weddings, but if it's between that or not drinking and that not drinking could be very problem or drinking could be very problematic for you, then I would say skip it.
Derek:But in general, avoiding places where you might be tempted to drink, especially if you're doing like a temporary, month of abstinence, you know, like a dry January or something. That might be a good time to to to try that. Maybe if you if every time you go to a bar, you have a couple of drinks, maybe it's time to create a ritual at home or go out to a restaurant instead, something like that. Then there is temper, which means just kind of lowering the amount that you drink, and that can be as simple as drinking low alcohol cocktails. Because for some of us, it's not all or nothing.
Derek:You know, it can we can still drink alcohol, and even though there is no amount of alcohol that's healthy for you, you can live a healthy life that incorporates alcohol. And so I think tempering is for certain people with a mindful drinking that feel comfortable with alcohol. And then an illicit help is, and again, each one of these, letters, you can see see think of these as, strategies, and then underneath are tactics. Various tactics you can use. So under elicit help is you could use an app.
Derek:There's many really great apps that out there that'll help you monitor the way you drink. You can work with somebody who's a friend, who's do on the same path as you to kind of like let's say you're going to a bar together, let's check-in after the second drink and see how we feel, if that was our goal, if we set a goal that we're only gonna have 2 drinks and leave, let's check-in at that point, how do we feel? And so and again, I think it's really important to approach this without judgment and to make sure that, you know, even if you mess up or you have an extra drink you didn't intend to, that doesn't derail everything. You know, ultimately there's always the chance to start again and to and to really achieve the goal that you want.
Speaker 4:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Kathleen:Yeah. That's that's really practical, advice for you, Derek. So thank you. I really like that acronym.
Speaker 4:Me too.
Kathleen:Derek, so when you were talking about
Speaker 4:the weddings,
Kathleen:it definitely made me think so
Sonia:Kathleen and I are, like, in our mid forties. Right? And so I feel like our age group, right, they drink. And now millennials are coming in drinking less, but I still feel like people in our age group, it it is the culture of socializing. And so with millennials drinking less, how do you see the culture of drinking changing in the next few years?
Derek:Yeah. Well, I mean, first and foremost, my group, men who are between the ages, I think, of 4565 or something like that are drinking more than they ever have. It's in terms of recorded history with recording alcohol use, we're binge drinking more than that what we ever have. And so that that worries me a lot. And I think to be honest with you, I think there's a lot of reasons for it.
Derek:I think it's multifactorial. It's not just one thing. But one of the main reasons is is how we were taught to approach mental health. I think that that's a big big one. And that's why I keep bringing up.
Derek:I've said it, I don't know, 40 times in this episode already. I keep bringing it up because it's okay. It's okay if you feel that you have a problem and you need help. I think especially, unfortunately, for men who can be really feel that they should be shielded from that and that they they they shouldn't do therapy, I think it's really important that they recognize that it's okay, that sometimes you need a little help. But, ultimately, generations below us are changing their relationship with alcohol, and they're drinking less, and there's lots of reasons for that too.
Derek:I think one of it is because, there's been a change in the way parenting and parenting, right? Parents are maybe a little bit more there's a little bit more disclosure, a little bit more discussion around it, which I think is really awesome. We have to talk to our kids early about alcohol use and substance use, and there's a lot more awareness of the health issues and even sometimes of the connection between parental alcohol use and their children's alcohol use. You know, as I mentioned earlier, my my dad is an identifies as an alcoholic. Right?
Derek:That's yeah. That was the worst siren in the history of sirens. I don't know what came out of my mouth, but whatever. That's a better siren.
Kathleen:That's a European siren, Derek.
Derek:Yeah. Thank you for that, Kathleen. I I mean, European siren. But, but, essentially, that should be a big, alarm that, you may have problems with alcohol use. If your parents had problems with alcohol use, you will probably have problems with alcohol use.
Derek:There's a good chance. So so people are becoming more aware of that, of things like that. And, also, they're they're just generally more aware of the health issues with alcohol. In the 19 eighties, we all got it. Sounds like we're not too far apart in age.
Derek:We all got this idea that somehow alcohol was healthy for us.
Speaker 4:And then if we drank a lot of wine, we get this magic ingredient called resveratrol that will
Derek:protect us from heart disease. Mhmm. And, obviously, that's false, and it's been debunked since then. And you can get resveratrol from other sources and a much better source is you have to drink a lot of wine in the first place to get the amount you need for it to be a protective factor. So it really is just kind of debunked.
Derek:And in general, when they look at all cause mortality, I mean, alcohol, is going to reduce your lifespan.
Speaker 4:That's Yeah.
Derek:That's what and and and and certainly reduce your health span too, which is not, you know, when we die, but when we get older and we have problems associated, that that that alcohol is associated with. So, I think people are more aware of that. And if they're not, well, now you're listening, so you know. So that's good. And then lastly, there's this, culture in which we're kids are under more observation than they've ever been, from each other, from their parents, from other people.
Derek:I don't know if you all have kids, but my son has this watch, that we can tell wherever he is. He's 9 years old. You know? And it it it bumps me out because I'm like, oh, I don't wanna, like, monitor him, but at the same time, you know, it's part of the culture. Everyone's being observed.
Derek:And and on social media, that's especially true. You know, if you somebody who's young does something, under the influence of alcohol, that could be caught for posterity, and that's it. That could undermine future things that they do. So so anyway, I think all of that is contributing to, people drinking less and some of it for good, some of it for bad, but ultimately, overall, I think it's a good thing.
Kathleen:Mhmm. I've really enjoyed your example that you gave previously about the wedding, like, about how drinking is happening at weddings, and that's an environmental trigger for some people for sure. How would you address the stigma associated with not drinking alcohol at social events?
Derek:Yeah. That's a that's a tough one. And here I am an advocate for mindful drinking. And after a soccer game for my son, all the parents went out and they had some drinks and I got a nonalcoholic beer. And unconsciously, I turned the label towards me.
Speaker 4:And I
Derek:was drinking, I was drinking, and then I stopped and I I go, oh my gosh. Why did I do that? You know? Like, I wanna tell people that I'm drinking nonalcoholic drinks. But in that case, because this this group of people did not identify me as my the mindful drinking person, I didn't necessarily I guess, subconsciously, I didn't really wanna explain why I wasn't drinking.
Derek:And nobody should have to explain why they're not drinking. Right? Let's, like, let's say that as a bar as a bartender because ultimately, all of this stuff I'm talking about, the health stuff, I have some grasp on, but but at the end of the day, my training is in bartending. And and I can tell you that, as a bartender, you don't have to tell people why you don't drink. It happens all the time that people will challenge you and say, why don't you drink?
Derek:Or, you know, or they just say, oh, you don't drink? You're an alcoholic? Are you pregnant? Etcetera. You don't have to tell people any of that.
Derek:You're under no obligation. You can just say, I'm not drinking right now. That's just my choice. But, again, some people don't feel super comfortable for that. So my suggestion is and this is a tactic under, replace.
Derek:Right? The r is something called propping. Mhmm. Right? But you take a glass that looks like, it would have alcohol in it.
Derek:Right? So so for instance, gin and tonica usually comes in a, in a, double rocks glass. You fill that with tonic or soda water and put a lime on the side, nobody will ever know.
Speaker 4:Mhmm.
Derek:Right? So the only it'll be between you and the bartender, and as a bartender, I love it when people regulate their drinking. Trust me. It's the other way that I'm very uncomfortable with. Right?
Derek:When they're they're drunk and they're acting like jerks. But when somebody's just like, hey. I'm doing soda water. Do you mind putting it a, you know, double rocks glass with a lime on the side? No problem.
Derek:You know? Mhmm. So I think that ultimately, that's that's one tactic, that you can use. Obviously, you could bring if it's you feel comfortable, especially the wedding, this can be really awkward, but you can bring 2 bottles of nonalcoholic sparkling wines. Nonalcoholic sparkling wines are delicious.
Derek:They're 1 they're some of the best out there. And so give one to the couple and pop one open there yourself and just hand it to the bartender or or whoever's doing that and say, hey. This is just for me because I can't drink. Will you just pour this for me when I come up? Nobody will ever know except, again, you and the bartender.
Sonia:Speaking of bartenders, you really let us into our next question, which is what has the response been from the bar and restaurant industry to your work?
Derek:Thank you. You know, that's that's what it's been. And I that surprised me because when I changed my relationship with alcohol, I was scared. And I don't scare easily, but I was really scared. And I was scared for a number of reasons.
Derek:1 was because I had to face my colleagues, but also I didn't know what I was gonna do with my life. You know? Like, I thought, what was I gonna do? Now do real estate or something? I just it wasn't like I had to turn to a totally different profession.
Derek:Nothing wrong with real estate. I was bringing that up as an example, and I I have a feeling that there's, like, some real estate people out there, like, come on, Derek. You know? But, ultimately, you know, when I approached my colleagues, I did so in a way that I was clenching my teeth and getting ready for the fight, and they said, wow. Of course.
Derek:Yeah. This makes total sense, and thank you. This is like, thank you for sharing that with me. Thank you for doing this. We need this.
Derek:And, personally, there was one incident where I talked to one of my former investors in the bar, and I I went to talk to him because we are closing on the bar, and I was just had to give him some information about it. And I said, yeah. I I had to change my relationship with alcohol. And he said, yeah. I knew that.
Derek:I knew that. I didn't know how to address it, and I was scared for you. I was scared for your life. I saw what was happening, and I was like, wow. I didn't you know?
Derek:For some reason, I didn't think I was on under observation. I guess that's the the gen x hubris. But, but yeah. So so, ultimately, people were understanding of my personal situation. People were, were appreciative of the advocacy, for it because they they think we need this in the industry.
Derek:I was recently at the Bar Convent Brooklyn, which is a conference about 5 1,000 people, that come to New York, mostly people in the industry to talk about spirits, cocktails, bars, and so forth. And we had a seminar on nonalcoholic drinks, and it was standing room only. And in fact, I went to understand ours, and they were they were busy, but ours is the one that I saw that was the And I'd like to believe it's because of me and my charm and my personality, but I know the reason for it is out of curiosity. People want to know because bartenders, for better or worse, we're the ones who see people in these situations, you know, we're the ones who see people drinking too much, showing up at the bar all the time, making bad decisions, and, it's often beyond us to make, you know, we we're sometimes compared with psychologists. Right?
Derek:But we're not psychologists, and we can't really we don't have a lot of tools to help and change a person's life. You know? That's up to them and their psychologist. All we can do is serve a drink, or not serve a drink if we feel the person is over served. But often you just see people who are drinking, they're at their very worst, and it it changes your perspective on on on alcohol really quickly.
Kathleen:Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I mean okay. So with the theme of bartending, what are what are some common misconceptions that you think the people would have about no and low alcohol
Derek:cocktails? Well, I think that there's a number of of of issues that why people are not adopting nonalcoholic drinks. 1 is availability.
Kathleen:Okay.
Derek:Even though there are a lot more products out there, in fact, there's been just this, like, meteoric growth in nonalcoholic brands, it doesn't mean that they're everywhere, and it doesn't mean that, you know, if you walk into a bar and restaurant tomorrow, they're gonna automatically have delicious nonalcoholic alternatives. So availability is a problem. Although we're trying to try to overcome that problem, it's it's a problem. I think the perception of value is a problem. Mhmm.
Derek:So people think, well, they're not very good. So, but they're expensive. So they don't really understand why they cost the amount that they do when some in some cases, it's more expensive to develop and make a nonalcoholic product than a product with alcohol. I think that there's the stigma around being identified as an alcoholic or somebody who doesn't drink and then along with that comes a sort of certain embarrassment, you know, factor, like when when I sat down and I turned the label, you know, I was embarrassed to share aspects of it. So because I like these acronyms, I use that acronym as SAVE.
Derek:Stigma, availability, value, and embarrassment. So I think that that's kind of the barrier, some of the barriers we're experiencing to people adopting that. But as they as it becomes more normalized within the culture to drink nonalcoholic drinks, that's changing the stigma and the embarrassment factor. As the drinks are becoming better and people are actually encountering ones that they like. I think that's changing it.
Derek:And, obviously, accessibility is just a question of time and development.
Speaker 4:You know?
Derek:I mean, it's a new product. Right? In in a way, there's many nonalcoholic beverages that go back, you know, all the way to temperance when there was another movement. That's mindful drinking 1.0, you know, but we have this new group of sophisticated non alcoholic beverages, beers, wines, spirits, that are just blossoming, you know. And so so that's just gonna take time and and and eventually, it'll be normalized.
Derek:They'll be everywhere, and people will find ones that they like.
Sonia:Yeah. I think Kathleen knows too that I live in, like, a tiny town in Pennsylvania. I got invited to a cocktail party for tomorrow and which is, like, my personal hell when people call it a cocktail party. And, I said, oh, do you want me to bring anything? He said, oh, no.
Sonia:I have phony Negronis and some nonalcoholic margaritas. And I was like, thank you, sir. A little bit more? This a little bit more? This is something I don't know a lot about at all about low alcohol cocktails and how they kind of integrate with the idea of mindful drinking.
Derek:Yeah. I mean, first of all, low is not clear what that means.
Sonia:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Derek:Right? So because it's it's sort of uncertain, low can mean a lot of different things depending on the beverage. There is a legal definition of low alcohol beer that is about 2.5% alcohol, which is about half your common beer alcohol by volume. So alcohol by volume means how much alcohol is in the whole can, the percentage of alcohol. So, like, if it's a beer, it's gonna be somewhere between 5 and probably 10%.
Derek:It can go higher, but it rarely does. It's more likely gonna be around 4 or 5%, and half of that is legally defined as 2 point as low alcohol. Wine doesn't have a legal definition for what is low alcohol. Right now, they're developing low alcohol wines that are somewhere between 3 to 8% alcohol by volume, but generally, wines I would consider to be low alcohol to begin with, right, because they don't go much higher than 16% alcohol by volume. Whereas, bourbon or vodka or gin is gonna be 40% alcohol by volume or more.
Derek:So with that said, the way to think about cocktails or I think about it in my book, Mindful Mixology, I I took strong cocktails like the Manhattan or the Martini, which come in somewhere between 20 30% alcohol by volume, and I said half or less of that is what constitutes a low alcohol cocktail, right? So in that case, an Aperol spritz would be a low alcohol cocktail. Some people will say that that's too high, so it really, again, it's kind of a difficult thing to nail down, but I think if it's less than a standard amount of alcohol in that in that drink, then it it automatically is lower for sure and that's enough to start with. But if somebody really wants to get into it, they have to kinda understand a little bit more about alcohol by volume and start to pay attention to it. So one thing that I recommend because it's a lot of math.
Derek:Mhmm. It's not that much more complicated than counting calories. So in that way, I don't think it's super super complicated, but it is an extra step. What I recommend is people familiarize their themselves with their favorite drinks and what the alcohol by volume is. And then in that case, they can start to determine and set goals for what they're gonna drink that night.
Derek:Right? If you notice, there's the v on ABV is volume. That means it also depends how much you drink. So let's say that you drink one shot of vodka that is 1.5 ounces of 40% alcohol, and you have one beer that's I think 12 ounces at 5% alcohol or you have one 5 ounce glass of wine that's 14% alcohol. All those are equivalent.
Derek:So that's something to keep in mind. The amount of liquid in there matters too. So if you have one shot of vodka that's 40% and you have a 2 pitchers of beer that's 5%, I think we know which one's gonna get you more drunk, and that is clearly the pitchers of beer. So there's a little bit of math behind it. There is a ABV calculator that I created online with Epicurious.
Derek:So it's if it's on epicuriousdot com or if you just Google, ABV calculator, you Derek Brown, you could probably find it. I created it with Maggie Hoffman, and, basically, you can put in almost any drink, and if you know the recipe,
Speaker 4:and you
Derek:can determine what the ABV is. So I think that's important. There are other websites like responsibility.org where you can determine whether something is a standard drink, which means that that unit that that we use in the in the United States to determine how many drinks we should have. Right? They say one standard drink or 2 standard drinks, depending on what, sex you're assigned at birth.
Derek:Right?
Speaker 4:Mhmm.
Derek:So responsibility.org is a great place to check that.
Kathleen:I was wondering, Derek, can you talk a little bit more about your book, Mindful Mixology, and what what can readers expect from it? So it it's primarily a recipe book,
Derek:and they have no and low alcohol cocktails. There's 60 altogether, and a lot of the, the non the the low alcohol ones can be made nonalcoholic as well, so I'll give instructions how you can make them nonalcoholic. In it, I also talk about the theory of how to build nonalcoholic cocktails. So what makes something a nonalcoholic cocktail? Like, obviously, iced tea is not a nonalcoholic cocktail.
Derek:Right? Lemonade is not a nonalcoholic cocktail. So so what is that dividing line? What makes it a nonalcoholic cocktail? And you know, I define that a little bit, I define that as it has intensity of flavor, when you drink a cocktail, you know it's a cocktail, right?
Derek:That's kind of a bunch. When you, the piquancy or that bite that you get sometimes from alcohol, sometimes from other ingredients like ginger, there's a certain length or volume that's not taken up by juice or sugar, and there's a certain texture that weight, the mouthfeel that comes with the cocktail. So that's sort of the sensory way to define a cocktail. Right? Those are the sensory characteristics that define any cocktail whether it has alcohol or not.
Derek:And so in the book, I talk about those categories and what kind of ingredients you can use, and sometimes it's just stuff you can get at a grocery store. What kind of ingredients you can use to create an adult sophisticated nonalcoholic drink, AKA, a nonalcoholic cocktail?
Kathleen:So what are some of the ingredients that that we should stock? I don't don't have to go through all of them that that are in your book. But what is what is what are some of the ingredients we should stock for our no or low alcoholic cocktail bar at home?
Derek:Well, look, there's plenty of 3 hour, podcasts now nowadays. So if you want, we can go through everything. But I will
Kathleen:But give us a few. Just like 2 or 3.
Derek:Yeah. You got it. No. I have one drink in particular that I think really highlights it, and it's called the pinch hitter. Okay.
Derek:And it's for me, it's kinda like the prototypical nonalcoholic sour, and it starts with lemonade. So you you use fresh lemon, juice, and use ginger syrup. Instead of sugar syrup or just sugar, use ginger syrup which is really easy to make. You essentially just chop up ginger, heat it with sugar and water and that's it and there's a recipe in my book and you can find it online, I'm happy to provide it to you all as well. So lemon and ginger syrup, so the ginger gives a little bit of that intensity of flavor and piquancy.
Derek:I also add to it aquafaba which is a fancy way of saying chickpea water.
Speaker 4:Mhmm.
Derek:Right? The chickpea water is a substitute for egg whites. So not everybody can have egg whites. Actually, not everybody can have chickpeas but more people can have chickpeas, so I use aquafaba, you could use egg whites as well. This is a thickening agent, it also gives it that nice foaminess on the top of it and so that helps with the texture and then I add a salt tincture, which is a very small amount which again is just a really simple ingredient that sounds complicated.
Derek:It's 4 parts water to 1 part salt. Then you just shake it until the crystals dissolve and it doesn't add saltiness to the drink. What it does is it suppresses some of the bitterness and makes it appear to be more round and sweet. So salt in small doses actually increases the the kind of texture and the flavor. So so that's a kinda interesting little trick, and you see a lot more bartenders using that when cocktails with and without alcohol.
Derek:I also add to it apple cider vinegar, just a spoonful, which is a byproduct of alcohol. It does not have any alcohol in it, but it is from alcohol. And so it has some of that funky intense flavor to it. And so by the time you add all of that together, shake it up with ice, you get this really fluffy drink that has a little bit of burn, a little bit of piquancy, a lot of intensity of flavor, and all of those ingredients, even though they have fancy names behind them like, you know, the tincture and so forth, ultimately, you could buy those for a couple dollars at tops at a grocery store. So, I created that drink specifically because I wanted to show people how easy it is in some ways to create a non alcoholic cocktail, an adult sophisticated drink.
Kathleen:It sounds delicious. I want one right now. I don't know how my clients would feel if it looked like I was, like, drinking a cocktail through their sessions, but I definitely feel like I want one. What what are some of your favorite I mean, it sounds like that might be one of them. But what are some of your favorite no and low alcohol cocktails that we can make at home, like, in addition to the it's called the pinch hitter.
Derek:Yeah. Yeah. You well, I mean, I think one of the easiest things to do is to buy RTD cocktails, ready to drink cocktails. Right? So I will you know, I'm happy to share recipes and that sort of thing, but if you are sitting there thinking, oh my god.
Derek:What the what was this guy talking about? It's easy to make. I don't know how to make any of the stuff you talked about. Go go get a can of cocktails. They're much better than they used to be.
Derek:Right? Yeah. They even in in many cases, we'll use natural ingredients. There's, there's one I re I tasted recently
Speaker 4:from Aplos, e
Derek:aplos Yeah. Called, the top bartenders in the world. Okay. It tastes so good. She did a great job.
Derek:It does have some functional ingredients in it. It has hemp in it. So for some people, they may choose to avoid that. Mhmm. But in this case, the hemp doesn't cause I I think it doesn't necessarily give you that buzz that alcohol does for sure.
Derek:And so that is an example. There's a, a producer called Mocktail Club that you can find I can find it. We have a grocery store in in DC called Giant. Safeway, those are, you know, throughout the US, but not everywhere. So you can go your grocery store in some cases and find these nonalcoholic ready to drink cocktails.
Derek:I think that's a really easy lift. But if you want to find ones that are, that are easy to make, they're nonalcoholic, what I'd suggest is getting nonalcoholic spirits, right? Replacements like, there's a nonalcoholic tequila substitute which is from Jalisco in Mexico called Almave, almave, and it's a really great product. You can make a margarita with it, and you have to do very little to change the recipe. Right?
Derek:So that's an example. You don't have to do much. Just use a recipe you have. Just switch out this one ingredient. If you wanna make it low alcohol, there's also an easy answer to that.
Derek:Make it half the tequila and half the almave. And that way, you have automatically dropped the alcohol by half, which is fantastic. So those are really easy ways to do this without having to know everything I know. But one of the best ways that you can do this is for 39.95 by mindful mixology, a comprehensive guide to no and low alcohol cocktails. Once you read it, you will be an expert.
Speaker 4:Mhmm.
Kathleen:Absolutely. I think Sonia and I are gonna be, making some of some of these nonalcoholic cocktails very soon.
Sonia:Yeah. We definitely will. Derek, can you tell us a little bit about positive damage and any other upcoming projects that you're excited about?
Derek:Absolutely. Yeah. Positive Damage is my company that does consulting classes and content around mindful drinking, no low alcohol cocktails, and social wellness. And there I do a lot of different stuff from consulting with hotels, bars, restaurants, to working with brands that are nonalcoholic, to writing. I have a substack called, positive damage where I'd love everybody who's listening to this to sign up for it.
Derek:I put out articles, a couple articles a month on all of those topics. I have a podcast myself called the mindful drinking podcast on the, National Academy of Sports Medicine, NASM Podcast Network, where, actually, Kathleen, you'll be excited to know I recently interviewed Stephen c Hayes. So
Speaker 4:Stop.
Derek:You gotta listen to it. I I gotta tell you, it was fantastic. I mean, what a great Oh
Speaker 4:my gosh.
Derek:And, I, you know, I had Rosemond Dean recently who was a person credit. Then I interviewed a neuroscience psychiatrist about alcohol and sleep, so there's various people that I talk to about it, different facets of mindful drinking and no and low alcohol cocktails. And I am a cofounder of the mindful drinking fest, which happens every year in January, which is an opportunity for people to come and try all these products. We had a 150 products at the last one. There's a a 100% you're going to leave with at least one drink that you really love.
Derek:And we have parties around it. We have seminars, around mindful drinking and wellness classes and all of that. So it's a really great time. It's in Washington, DC. Look out for that.
Kathleen:Amazing. I might have to make the trip down from Toronto. Please. Amazing. Yeah.
Kathleen:So thank you so much, Derek, for being with us today, and we know that our listeners are definitely gonna appreciate all the information and inspiration that you gave. So thank you so so much for joining us.