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A podcast from Teachers College, Columbia University about play and pop culture. Professors Haeny Yoon and Nathan Holbert take play seriously. They talk with educators, parents and kids about how they play in their work and their lives, and why play matters.
The views expressed in this podcast are solely those of the speaker to whom they are attributed. They do not necessarily reflect the views of the faculty, administration, staff or Trustees either of Teachers College or of Columbia University.
Haeny Yoon:
Welcome to Pop and Play, the podcast all about play in all its frivolous, joyful, serious, powerful forms and education media and all the fun stuff. I'm one of the hosts of this award-winning podcast, Haeny Yoon.
Nathan Holbert:
Huge. We're huge. And I'm Nathan Holbert. Haeny and I are two education researchers that usually spend our time on this podcast talking with other scholars, artists, activists, parents. We've done a few episodes talking to children, all primarily about the way in which they play in their lives. But this is a New Year's episode, and as a New Year's episode we're doing something a little different.
Haeny Yoon:
Happy New Year!
Nathan Holbert:
Happy New Year! It's a little late.
Haeny Yoon:
Happy New Year!
Nathan Holbert:
It's not before or right after the new year, but it's close. It's close-ish, right?
Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. Anything before March is Happy New Year.
Nathan Holbert:
Yeah. I was thinking the other day, this is probably too long and should be cut, but hey, we're going wild here. Then I was like, "I'm going to have to say Happy New Year to people for the next three weeks, and that's going to be so exhausting."
Haeny Yoon:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Maybe that's out.
Nathan Holbert:
That's out. Saying Happy New Year, that's out. And speaking of what's out, that's what we're doing here today. We're going to have a little episode where we talk to one another about things that we thought were awesome or interesting or maddening in 2023, and then also say a bit about some of our kind of predictions or hopes for what might come in 2024.
So let's get started. We got a lot to talk about. Let's jump right into it. So let's start with our list here. So we're going to start with the 2023 best ofs. These are things that we're thinking in the past. We're reflecting on the year that we just had. What kinds of things were we into? I want to know about the TV show that made you want to stop and record a quick What's Popping video?
Haeny Yoon:
Okay. Well, you already know that I'm really bad at recording What's Popping videos?
Nathan Holbert:
I do. I do.
Haeny Yoon:
But-
Nathan Holbert:
Maybe you thought about it or you liked it so much that you wish somebody else had.
Haeny Yoon:
Okay, I thought about it. I dabbled. Yes, okay. Succession, obviously. If you didn't watch Succession, you obviously have really missed out on something amazing in 2023. So that's when Succession wrapped up. The acting in there was stupendous. My favorite scene is when they're at the karaoke bar, the kids, and the overlord, the father figure, comes into the karaoke bar and they think they're going to take over these kids, like, they're kind of idiots. They're going to take over everything. And his dad just looks at them. He's like, "You guys, you are not serious people."
Nathan Holbert:
"They're not serious people." Yeah, that's a gif I use.
Haeny Yoon:
Yes. And I think about that constantly, at every turn. That's what I think in my head. That's how I try to get through the workday.
Nathan Holbert:
That's good. I didn't actually watch a lot of Succession. Hannah and I watched, I think all of the first season and started the second season, but as we have discussed, I have a tough time watching a show where I hate everybody. And that show sometimes squeaks by because the characters are so insane they become funny again. But it is tough for me to sustain a show where I'm like, "Man, I hate all of these people so much."
Haeny Yoon:
I know. You hate all of them, but then you also feel sorry for them. So what about you?
Nathan Holbert:
Yeah, which then makes me feel bad.
Haeny Yoon:
What's a TV show for you?
Nathan Holbert:
Well, I have a couple shows on my list here of things that I was thinking about, but the one that I chose is the show Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur, which was on Disney+. It's a cartoon and it's a show my daughter and I watched together. And every episode I just kept thinking, "How is this show being made?" It's so good. It's so funny. It's so musical and it's not like a lot of other things out there. So I'm going to have to give a shout-out to that. That's my top show of the year here.
Haeny Yoon:
That's amazing. All right, something you read for work that was the best?
Nathan Holbert:
I actually have a fun one here. I have a fun one here. This is a book that I really enjoyed called The Rules We Break by Eric Zimmerman.
Haeny Yoon:
Oh, nice.
Nathan Holbert:
It's a lot of fun. I mean, the introductory chapter is called Play With This Book.
Haeny Yoon:
That's awesome.
Nathan Holbert:
It's a really creative, beautiful, interesting book all about play, thinking, learning, but it takes a really kind of playful, fun approach to it. So I really like this book a lot.
Haeny Yoon:
I had a hard time with this one because I'm not in work mode right now and I really don't like to think about work when I'm not in work mode. But I did get this book called Incubation: A Space for Monsters. So it's about the interaction of humans and machines and cyborgs and monsters.
Nathan Holbert:
I love that title.
Haeny Yoon:
And it's also a very political ideological text. So I feel like you would kind of like it. It's thin and short too.
Nathan Holbert:
Say the title again.
Haeny Yoon:
Incubation: A Space for Monsters.
Nathan Holbert:
Oh, man, I love that. We want to move into a new phase here, but before we get into our predictions for 2024, we wanted to look back with some of our guests. So these are former Pop and Play guests that have been on episodes, and we asked them if they could give us their what's in, what's out, list, or for us, we'll call this What's Popping and What's Flopping?
We got a lot of these here. We'll just move through them quick. We may not say all of them. But former guest, Mike Dando, professor at St. Cloud State University told us that for him, what's popping is the new Dr. Who. Says it's a treat, it's a great jumping off point for those just getting into it and also for those who've been watching for ages. And he also recommended Kaliane Bradley's The Ministry of Time sci-fi book. Sounds interesting. For him what is flopping is surprise musicals, and his example here was the new Willy Wonka movie.
Haeny Yoon:
Hard disagree because Timothee Chalamet has been popping for me this year.
Nathan Holbert:
Oh. Oh.
Haeny Yoon:
Anyway.
Nathan Holbert:
Not popping for me, and I like a good musical here and there. Surprise musicals? I don't know. I guess I could get into it. He's also not down with gritty reboots and specifically suggests we leave Steamboat Willie alone. He's also not down with celebrity memoirs, which again, coming for you. You just read the Britney book.
Haeny Yoon:
Hard disagree, Mike Dando. I'm going to have to fight you in the next episode.
Nathan Holbert:
He'll be back.
Haeny Yoon:
Okay. We have Cassie Brownell, who was actually on our way back in season one when we were little baby podcasters. And she thinks the Olympics are in, that mini-series are in, like Fellow Travelers or Marvel. I love this one, old school tech. Disposable cameras, flip phones, old school digital cameras. I do feel like they're in.
Nathan Holbert:
I'm so done with that. That's so annoying though. It's like, come on, let it go.
Haeny Yoon:
Oh my God. Okay. And Abbott Elementary. But who doesn't love Abbott Elementary?
Nathan Holbert:
Abbott's always in.
Haeny Yoon:
Out are kid influencers that are put up by their parents, obviously. So ridiculous.
Nathan Holbert:
Get rid of that.
Haeny Yoon:
Super curated looks because I think the pandemic has changed all of our styles.
Nathan Holbert:
Oh, you mean like me? My super curated look?
Haeny Yoon:
And then spin-offs for shows that ended. I have to agree with that. Do you remember when Arrested Development? No, they didn't have a spin-off, but you know how they had a surprise season? It was terrible.
Nathan Holbert:
Yeah.
Haeny Yoon:
Years after.
Nathan Holbert:
Yeah. I have so many thoughts about that. It was not good. But it was one of the first Netflix series and it came out all at once, and so they didn't know what they were doing. They had this creative idea to make it so you could watch it out of order and it just, yeah, it didn't work. What a shame.
Haeny Yoon:
It's not good.
Nathan Holbert:
It's not a spinoff though so I don't know what you're talking about.
Haeny Yoon:
Okay. Yeah, I know. But for instance, you know how all the chatter about Ted Lasso and one of them getting a spinoff? That's a mistake.
Nathan Holbert:
Oh, yeah.
Haeny Yoon:
Don't do that.
Nathan Holbert:
Yeah, I think you're probably right on that. I think you and Cassie are right. Okay. Sonali, Sonali Rajan, professor here at Teachers College, also a guest on season three episode about detectives. She says that for her, what's in is sleep, more running with friends, saying no to things, and '90s pop. That is very Sonali answer.
Haeny Yoon:
Solid.
Nathan Holbert:
And yeah, I can't disagree with any of those. And what's out? Unnecessary meetings. Fully support that. Season three of Gilmore Girls. Okay, I mean, all seasons of Gilmore Girls as far as I'm concerned, though, I'm not sure why that's made her out of 2023 list.
Haeny Yoon:
What? That is not out. Okay. Gilmore Girls, classic. Okay. Anyway.
Nathan Holbert:
I hate that show. It's so bad. All right.
Haeny Yoon:
Come fight me. Come fight me, Sonali. You know what's going to be in?
Nathan Holbert:
I love how you've tried fight all of our guests so far.
Haeny Yoon:
You know what's going to be in is MMA fighting between the guests and me.
Nathan Holbert:
You are very, very aggressive 2024.
Haeny Yoon:
Yes.
Nathan Holbert:
And the last thing that's out for her is girl math, which-
Haeny Yoon:
Fight me. Fight me, Sonali.
Nathan Holbert:
I don't know what it is, but it sounds bad.
Haeny Yoon:
I had to explain to Nathan what girl math was, which was kind of ridiculous because I feel like how do you not know what that is? But anyway, it's basically like when you buy something and then you return it and then you made money. Net gain. Which is how I live my life every day.
Nathan Holbert:
I don't think I'm on TikTok enough. I think that's why I missed it. All right, what about Tran? You want to tell us about our last guest here, Tran?
Haeny Yoon:
Oh yeah, Tran. Okay. So she did start off on solid note by saying Kardashians are out. Paris Hilton is in. And then she started to just make it about her wishes and dreams. So she wrote she wishes Real Housewives was out and that she wishes POV on PBS is in.
Nathan Holbert:
Yeah.
Haeny Yoon:
She also wished that Stanley cups are out and rock filtering systems are in, which I thought was funny. And then Nathan, tell us about-
Nathan Holbert:
This threw me, because I was like, I had no idea that former guest Tran Templeton, also a professor at Teacher's College. I had no idea she was such a huge hockey fan. But I've been told that is not. Well, I was told that's not a Stanley cup, which I totally disagree with, but apparently there's something else called a Stanley cup.
Haeny Yoon:
Yeah, Stanley mugs, like the one with the straw and the handle on the side and all.
Nathan Holbert:
Yeah.
Haeny Yoon:
I don't want to say what kinds of person, what kind of people use those, but anyhow.
Nathan Holbert:
Well, my dad's name is Stanley, so I'm going to take offense to whatever comes next out of your mouth.
Haeny Yoon:
Okay, well, Nathan, this is not a podcast about your dad.
Nathan Holbert:
Well, that would be an interesting podcast. Oh, man.
Haeny Yoon:
Oh my God. Okay, so finally, our 2024 predictions.
Nathan Holbert:
2024. What an insane number of years.
Haeny Yoon:
Yes. I've decided that I'm not answering any of these questions. Then I'm just going to talk about '90s phrases that I want to bring back in 2024.
Nathan Holbert:
So your 2024 prediction is, let's go back to the '90s.
Haeny Yoon:
Let's go back to the '90s. Let's bring some phrases back.
Nathan Holbert:
I think nostalgia is going to be pretty hot in 2024.
Haeny Yoon:
Yes. Yeah. Okay. Here's my first '90s word that I think needs to come back. So we have to have raise the roof. And then we should all start saying bomb.com again.
Nathan Holbert:
Bomb.com?
Haeny Yoon:
That is the bomb.com.
Nathan Holbert:
You're describing things you do all the time. But anyway, keep going.
Haeny Yoon:
I know, but it has to come back because I have to be in fashion.
Nathan Holbert:
Wow.
Haeny Yoon:
The last thing inspired by Britney's memoir, and I'm going to fight Mike Dando about celebrity memoirs, we should all start saying fo shiz, fo shiz, fo shiz.
Nathan Holbert:
It's got to be in triplet though?
Haeny Yoon:
Well, it's got to be Michelle Williams imitating Justin Timberlake, "Fo shiz, fo shiz, fo shiz." It's amazing. You should say it.
Nathan Holbert:
Yeah. See here, I'm out of my element again.
Haeny Yoon:
Yes.
Nathan Holbert:
And that's the one that's your one '90s trend I'm not willing to support. The others, I'm okay with.
Haeny Yoon:
Okay. What do you hope will come back in 2024?
Nathan Holbert:
What do we hope, I didn't have a category written down for what we hope comes back in 2024. I think that was just you wish casting.
Haeny Yoon:
No, it says, what do we hope catches in 2024?
Nathan Holbert:
Catches. Doesn't have to come back.
Haeny Yoon:
Okay. Catches. What do you hope catches on?
Nathan Holbert:
Little window into our notes here, y'all. Well, I think, in general, I would like to see more and weirder fandoms going mainstream. I feel like there's been a lot of fandom culture and things, and a lot of its toxic and problematic. But I think recently with all the different streaming services, with all the different kind of TikToks and weird different media environments, there's all sorts of strange stuff that's starting to kind of trickle up. I just want to see more weird stuff that people are super, super, super into becoming mainstream.
Haeny Yoon:
Give me an example.
Nathan Holbert:
For season four, we've been talking about play and role playing. And I think conversations with some of our guests about what cons they've gone to and then gotten very obsessive about particular-
Haeny Yoon:
Like Comic-Con or anime stuff or cosplay.
Nathan Holbert:
Yeah, which itself is very mainstream, but the weird stuff within those categories. There was one thing that was talked about, which was these costumes that were old-timey or steampunky characters made as if they're Pokemon, but people, and it was just so bizarre and weird and interesting. I was like, "I want to know more about this entire culture of people that are doing this." So I'd more of that kind of stuff to become visible.
Haeny Yoon:
Yeah, I think that would be cool. Okay. My question for you though what's the next nerd thing that you're going to make me do?
Nathan Holbert:
So yeah, I have unintentionally tortured Haeny a lot this year.
Haeny Yoon:
Many times.
Nathan Holbert:
By having her do crazy, nerdy, weird things.
Haeny Yoon:
I mean, did you watch our Twitch stream? No. Obviously.
Nathan Holbert:
It's still up. Go check it out. It's great. Yeah, so we also did a big Star Wars thing, as I've alluded to. Stay tuned for season four. It's going to be great. I think the next nerdy thing I'm going to make you do though is I'm going to get you deeply into Baldur's Gate fan fiction. And I think you're going to become, on your own, a little fan fiction author of Baldur's Gate.
Haeny Yoon:
Like writing fan fiction for Baldur's Gate?
Nathan Holbert:
Yeah.
Haeny Yoon:
Oh my God, that sounds kind of amazing. I think I would like this.
Nathan Holbert:
I think you would like it. So I think that's what we're going to try to get you into next.
Haeny Yoon:
Okay. I mean, FYI, my understanding of what Baldur's Gate is, is that you're just supposed to figure out who you're going to date or who dates who and how are you going to get a date. So I mean, fan fiction possibilities are endless there.
Nathan Holbert:
Basically. That doesn't narrow down. I mean, there's a whole lot of video games that are basically that. What about for education? What do you hope catches on in 2024?
Haeny Yoon:
I didn't have an answer to that. I don't know. What do you think? What did you have in mind?
Nathan Holbert:
You want me to buy you some time?
Look, it's a little too on the nose for our podcast, but I really would like to see in education circles more conversation about play, more space and time for play, and to take it kind of seriously as the actual work of what it means to do learning, as opposed to a thing that can happen or a thing that's separate from the times where we learn. So I just would like to see more focus, more attention, more awareness that learning and play are intimately intertwined and see that become kind of core. Was that enough time?
Haeny Yoon:
Okay. Yeah, so I just thought of something in relation to what you were saying. Obviously I agree with you. I also think what I hope catches on in 2024 finally is that we actually listen to kids, in education. I don't know why it's like that never catches on.
Nathan Holbert:
Yeah, it really doesn't, does it?
Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. But maybe this year we'll finally start listening to kids.
Nathan Holbert:
This is the year. This is the year.
Haeny Yoon:
This is the year.
Nathan Holbert:
The kids are going to play more. They're going to be heard more. I love it.
Haeny Yoon:
Yeah.
Nathan Holbert:
I love it. So those were our predictions for 2024. It's been a wild and crazy 2023. Lots of good stuff. Lots of weird stuff. Lots of not great stuff.
Haeny Yoon:
Yes. Stay tuned for season four.
Nathan Holbert:
We've been recording and we're excited to release that in the coming months. So stay tuned for that. And to get yourself ready, season three, it's right there. It's waiting for you. It's really good. Lots of great conversations. Lots of this nonsense. So check it out.
Haeny Yoon:
It's the bomb.com.
Nathan Holbert:
But aren't we .org? I don't know.
Haeny Yoon:
Can you please say the fo shiz?
Nathan Holbert:
Can I say what?
Haeny Yoon:
Fo shiz.
Nathan Holbert:
Fo shiz, fo shiz, fo shiz.
Tc.edu/popandplay. Check it out.
Haeny Yoon:
Fo shiz.
Nathan Holbert:
Thanks everybody. Have a good new year.
This season of Pop and Play was produced by Haeny Yoon, Nathan Holbert, Lalitha Vasudevan, Billy Collins, and Joe Riina-Ferrie. Audio editing and production by Billy Collins.
Haeny Yoon:
For transcripts, and to learn more about our guests, visit tc.edu/popandplay. Our music is selections from Leafeaters by Podington Bear. You should follow us on Twitter, Instagram and TikTok under Pop and Play Pod. You can also follow us on Twitch under Pop and Play. Shout out to Ioana Literat for The Trashies. Watch on Instagram and TikTok. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.