Defining Hospitality

In this episode, we explore the essence and impact of hospitality in various contexts. Dan interviews Marion Emmanuelle Bullôt, the Managing Partner of AvroKO Hospitality Group. The conversation dives into Marion's career journey, starting from her early days in France, her influential experience with Gordon Ramsay, to her current role where she oversees strategy and concept development at AvroKO. Marion provides insights into how hospitality can transform spaces, enhance business strategies, and create meaningful experiences. The episode also highlights AvroKO's global projects, the importance of understanding market constraints, and the evolving nature of hospitality in enhancing guest experiences and business success.

Takeaways: 
  • When expanding or starting new ventures in different regions, understanding the local context and customer needs is crucial. 
  • Leaders should have a clear understanding of the financial realities of their business, such as the P&L of restaurants or the budget constraints for food and beverage in specific projects.
  • Encourage and value diverse experiences within your teams to innovate and solve complex problems.
  • Building trust with clients through transparent communication and demonstrating expertise can help in securing buy-in for ambitious projects. Focus on ensuring clients understand both the vision and the practical steps.
  • Think about how every touchpoint, from design to customer interaction, contributes to the overall experience and brand perception.
  • Be prepared to adapt and evolve with changing market conditions. Whether it's incorporating new technology or rethinking strategies post-pandemic, leaders must remain flexible and open to change.
  • Effective F&B strategies can significantly contribute to the revenue of hotels and other establishments. Consider investing in high-quality F&B offerings and understand the unique value it can bring to your business.
Quote of the Show:
“I have lots of early childhood memories that tie into hospitality and I just love that it comes with me through my day-to-day, through my work, and through everything I do.” - Marion Emmanuelle Bullôt

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Creators & Guests

Host
Dan Ryan
Host of Defining Hospitality
Producer
Rayanne Pruitt

What is Defining Hospitality?

Welcome to Defining Hospitality, the podcast focused on highlighting the most influential figures in the hospitality industry. In each episode we provide 1 on 1, in depth interviews with experts in the industry to learn what hospitality means to them. We feature expert advice on working in the industry, behind the scenes looks at some of your favorite brands, and in depth explorations of unique hospitality projects.

Defining Hospitality is hosted by Founder and CEO of Agency 967, Dan Ryan. With over 30 years of experience in hospitality, Dan brings his expertise and passion to each episode as he delves into the latest trends and challenges facing the industry.

Episodes are released every week on Wednesday mornings.

To listen to episodes, visit https://www.defininghospitality.live/ or subscribe to Defining Hospitality wherever you get your podcasts.

DH - Marion Emmanuelle Bullot
===

[00:00:00] What I do is inconsequential. Why I do what I do is I get to shorten people's journeys every day. What I love about our hospitality industry is that it's our mission to make people feel cared for while on their journeys. Together we'll explore what hospitality means in the built environment, in business, and in our daily lives.

I'm Dan Ryan and this is Defining Hospitality.

dan-ryan--he-him-_1_09-24-2024_152355: Today's guest is someone with experience across all sectors of business, from development to operations, to marketing. Her hospitality career started with Gordon Ramsey, Marco Pierre White, She's worked with massive companies worldwide like JetBlue, Disney, Marriott, and Four Seasons. And she's been a part of the beloved Avroco family for nearly 20 years. She's the managing partner of Avroco Hospitality Group. Ladies and gentlemen, Marion Emmanuelle Boulot. Welcome. Bienvenue.

marion--she-her-_1_09-25-2024_072355: Merci. Hey, Dan.

dan-ryan--he-him-_1_09-24-2024_152355: [00:01:00] Or how do they say good, how do they say hello or good morning in New Zealand? Because this might be one of the furthest

recordings I've had is you're in New Zealand and I'm in Connecticut.

marion--she-her-_1_09-25-2024_072355: that's right. So it's 7. 25 in the morning for me. So we say, G'day.

dan-ryan--he-him-_1_09-24-2024_152355: Oh, you do say g'day. Sometimes I get concerned, like, upsetting Australians or New Zealanders by saying the wrong thing. So, thank you.

marion--she-her-_1_09-25-2024_072355: You're fine.

dan-ryan--he-him-_1_09-24-2024_152355: Um,

marion--she-her-_1_09-25-2024_072355: fine.

dan-ryan--he-him-_1_09-24-2024_152355: so I just want to let everyone know, um, I'm very excited to have Mirian on, because A, I'm a big Abraco fanboy, but B, we were actually in the same place. At the same time, 17 years ago, um, the restaurant public. And I remember it, I don't remember meeting her, but I'm sure she was there somewhere, but my vivid memory I had just gotten the new iPhone right as it launched. And then I went and I sat down with Christina and William in that little front area on Elizabeth street. And like the touchscreen thing.

People had blackberries and it was like this new thing. And I remember [00:02:00] Christina said, Oh, can I try it? And I remember she typed out the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog, which basically includes every single letter in the alphabet, if you type that sentence,

marion--she-her-_1_09-25-2024_072355: Uh huh.

dan-ryan--he-him-_1_09-24-2024_152355: feel for it. And it was like this really cool thing.

Like, I just remember it. And I'm glad we were there at the same time. welcome back from halfway around the world.

marion--she-her-_1_09-25-2024_072355: Uh, thanks Dan. I have a weird, vague recollection of this as well. So whether it was a shared experience and I was actually at the table, or whether it's one of those things where everyone's trying typing that sentence on the first, you know, iPhone they got their hands on, who knows, but, um, it's nice to see you again.

It's nice to be here. Thanks for having me.

dan-ryan--he-him-_1_09-24-2024_152355: and I'm sure there was a lot of and negronis or something involved too, so it probably blurs the edges and memory as well. But anyway, welcome. It's so great to see you.

marion--she-her-_1_09-25-2024_072355: Likewise, thanks for having me. Yeah, it's a, it's bright and early here in New Zealand and I've literally just got back a couple of, a couple of [00:03:00] days ago, so I'm still technically in the same time zone as you. The body is slowly adjusting.

dan-ryan--he-him-_1_09-24-2024_152355: Your soul is catching up to you.

marion--she-her-_1_09-25-2024_072355: That's it.

dan-ryan--he-him-_1_09-24-2024_152355: as you know, every conversation, I ask what hospitality means to someone or how they define it. And, um, I think speaking to you as managing partner for Avroco Hospitality Group, I think what's really interesting is that not only does Avroco design, which I think most of us and most of the listeners know, here, but also there's owning and operating and branding.

And there's so many cool different channels of your business that you, that have evolved over the years. And I think that sitting at the head of the hospitality group have a pretty good overview of all those different channels, but at the core, like hospitality is what ties everything together. Um, so before we get into our awesome conversation, like what does hospitality mean to you? How, how do you define it?

marion--she-her-_1_09-25-2024_072355: Now, and exactly, as I said, it's hard because [00:04:00] hospitality is everything, right? It's, it's It's my being, it's my passion, it's my career. So it's, it's hard to put in a few words but if, I really if have to, I guess I'll say it's, it's. The art, the science, the psychology, the business of taking care of others through experiences that may involve eating, drinking, sleeping, connecting with others.

So that's not revolutionary as such, but I think what I'm especially passionate about is that we all have a very personal view of hospitality because it connects to some very Personal and sort of fundamental human needs, and some of our earliest memories are somewhat rooted in hospitality. So whilst we can sort of all agree as to what, you know, hospitality is on paper, it's, it goes through our personal lens, our personal experience, and it becomes quite unique to, all of us.

So, you know, I have lots of early childhood memories that tie into hospitality, and I just, and I just love that it carries, [00:05:00] it, it's, Comes with me through my day to day, through my work and, and through, through everything I do.

dan-ryan--he-him-_1_09-24-2024_152355: you have many different accents. battling with each other, right? I hear French. I

marion--she-her-_1_09-25-2024_072355: Yeah.

dan-ryan--he-him-_1_09-24-2024_152355: New Zealand. I hear America. I hear like, it's a global, you have a global accent and it's pretty cool. But when you talk about your childhood, just to give people context, where was that? Where were those childhood memories of experiencing hospitality?

And like, what, what about those memories put you on this

path?

marion--she-her-_1_09-25-2024_072355: Um, so I grew up in the south of France and I'm hoping we have a few wine lovers listening because it's always easier to explain where I'm from, uh, with, with wine folks, but I'm from the Rhone Valley in, in France. So if you're familiar with Cote d'Oronne, with Cornerieux, with all those great wine appellations, this is where I'm from.

And whilst, you know, we have this kind of a very romanticized ideas of this part of the world at the time, it was a pretty depressed area. Um, [00:06:00] economically, there was just not a lot going on and I was still reading from sort of, as crazy as it sounds, makes me sound really old, but still reading from the sort of the post World War, World War II sort of effects and, and things were, um, pretty, pretty depressed.

So I, I, um, I was quite desperate to get out of there. I think my personality, I was quite, And the kind of energetic and excited to do lots of things. And I kept being told, no, you can't do that for that reason. No, you can't do this. And so some of my earliest memories were actually in France. We don't go to school on Wednesday afternoons.

Um, don't ask me why. Uh, but my grandmother was taking care of me on Wednesday afternoons. And she, you know, she was born in 1997. She went through both, both world wars and was really personally impacted. Her husband was wrong place. Wrong time was. I met an accidental prisoner of war in the Second World War, and so she had to sustain her family with, you know, whatever she could.

So she would get a chicken from the neighbor and something else from the community, and she basically built this kind of self sustainable environment to support her four kids. And [00:07:00] when she was taking care of me, I guess her legacy and her way to take care of me, um, really was to sort of teach me how to take care of my family with nothing.

So she would give me 10 francs, which I don't actually know what that is in today's currency, but it's not a lot, and task me to find a way to feed my family for a couple of days. And so I had to be resourceful and had to, you know, Vegan earmuffs here, but you know, I had to go and borrow chickens from the neighbors and just find, you know, I asked them and like, Hey, you're going to be, you know, uh, are you using every part of the animal here?

Can I get something from you? So I would make like chicken brain pancakes or things like that. So it's a little crazy, but it just gives me that sort of understanding that you can take care of others through food. And it's obviously a fundamental need, right? But, um, I just, it became part of, of, of my sort of, my being to want to sort of take care of others through, through food.

So that was, that was the first part that tied to those fundamental human needs. And then there was, I was exposed to the. [00:08:00] The magic of hospitality and that's a whole other thing through my experience with, you know, even some early memories with Keith McNally and some, you know, my early work with Gordon Ramsey.

And so I think it was the combination of those fundamental things plus the, just the transportative magic excitement of hospitality that made me fall in love with it.

dan-ryan--he-him-_1_09-24-2024_152355: okay, so from childhood and 10 francs and chicken brain pancakes, and now I have to try those, because I've never heard of such a thing, and that sounds pretty awesome. I mean, in a weird way,

marion--she-her-_1_09-25-2024_072355: Yeah.

dan-ryan--he-him-_1_09-24-2024_152355: definitely want to try this. So maybe when we're together, we can go find a chicken or chicken brain pate pancakes.

marion--she-her-_1_09-25-2024_072355: that recipe,

dan-ryan--he-him-_1_09-24-2024_152355: But as a child, and going on these adventures, and working with constraints, actually, when I think about the business of hospitality, those constraints of the 10 francs probably have really Done wonders for you on your career path. how did you wind up going from that working with the likes of McNally and [00:09:00] Gordon Ramsey?

And I don't know why I wrote this down, but as you were talking about it, you, you said, no, you can't, like you heard this, no, you can't, but like, how did that keep, that inspire you to keep pushing forward? And. Like, how did you wind up with two and more of these, like, incredible luminaries in our, in our industry?

marion--she-her-_1_09-25-2024_072355: Well, yeah, that's a good question. And I never worked with Keith McNally, but I had a, a funny anecdote. My, my brother and my ex-brother-in-Law was the GM about Azar when it opened So I was a, um, I was a kid. I was, uh, my family and I flew from France to be at the opening. And I just have those vivid memories of, you know, everyone knows about this, right, of this like insane space.

And obviously I was so little, didn't speak any English. And this is huge restaurant. And, um, I remember that they were waiting for their liquor license to come through. So at the back bar that we all know. So I was actually filled with Etion bottles. I have this vivid image in my head. And, um, I was sitting in one of the booths.

Uh, across from the bar with, with my family and, and Keith McNally, just, you know, the young restauranteur that he was [00:10:00] at the time came and sat next to me. And I was really intimidated and, and, you know, and, uh, impressed. And he says a couple of basic words to me, you know, like, who are you? What's your name?

And I responded, uh, and I was like, what's your name? And he said, Keith. And I just, I guess, didn't speak English. And I looked at him and I was like, Oh, Keith. Kiss, like a kiss, this is the most beautiful name I've ever heard. And he just like burst out laughing. And it was like, literally no one's ever told me that was the most beautiful name.

So I guess for years after that, he would, you know, call me the French girl who likes his name anytime I saw him. but, you know, I was in business in France. And. Wanted to learn English and I saw that as my way to escape, um, escape those restraints that we were talking about.

And, um, I was in New York for the summer of 2001 to, to learn English. Right. And I got lucky to get a job at Man Ray, which was, I don't know if you recall, it was. This super hot restaurant on 15th between 6th and 7th that opened in 2001 that was owned by Robert De Niro, Al Pacino. So, you know, talk about the magic of [00:11:00] hospitality.

Little French Marion from, you know, the Vallée de Rhone finds herself in this 400 seat glimpsy restaurant that was featured on Sex and the City. All those things. I fell in love with it and decided to take a year off business school to learn English. Um, and, but obviously September 11th happened.

Uh, so I did not stay in New York and found myself going to London, which was the nearest, you know, the closest place to France, and I was lucky enough to, to knock on the door of Gordon Ramsay. And I was lucky enough to start working with him at Claridge's, um, the day that he was awarded his first mission star at Claridge's.

So we already had. Three Mission Star at Gordon Ramsay. He's a panama's restaurant on Royal Hospital Road. But that day he got his first mission star and I could, you know, there was a real sort of shift at that point. He went from being, you know, a, a chef, a very acclaimed chef with a restaurant who, you know, that suddenly has two restaurants and there was just a lot going on and, and anecdotally, I was, um.

Still didn't speak much English at all. And he, uh, [00:12:00] he saw me and he was like, who are you? What are you doing here? In a very kind of Gordon way, very assertive, very fast. Uh, and I'm like, Oh, I'm Marion. I just started here. And he was like, what's your deal? And I was like, I just, you know, I'm excited to work with you.

And I'm standing next to those, Cheese trolleys. We have a British and a French one. They each have 40 cheeses on them. And he's like, what's this cheese? I'm like, I'm sorry. I don't know. I've literally just started today. And he's like, well, you have until tomorrow to tell me everything about all of those cheeses.

And if you don't know tomorrow, you're gone. And I was kind of like enraged a little bit. I just didn't really know who he was. So it wasn't kind of like, Oh, I have to sort of. Get it right. It was more like, who's this guy? What's going on? I remember I was closing that night. I know you finish at two, I leave an hour away.

I was starting at nine the following day. I'm like, what am I going to do this? But I was just so enraged that I just don't remember how, but I learned it. I learned them all. And I, um, the following day he rocks up. And he comes to me and he's like, what's this cheese? What's this cheese? What's that cheese?

And I knew them all, but I was luck or if I legitimately had learned them all, but, and he was like, all [00:13:00] right, come and see me in, in my office, um, and we'll chat. And I remember going downstairs and chatted and, you know, he basically said something to the extent of, you know, where we'll get some big things ahead and I think I'd like you to be part of the journey, um, he was like, how do you feel about that?

I was like, that sounds awesome. Sign me up. And then he said, which I remember. Forever said, um, I'm going to use some beeps for the words that are probably not safe for the part, but he said something to the extent of, if you want to be on this journey, you better Beep, lose that beep French accent of yours.

It makes you beep sound lazy. Um, and to make it worse, he said it in French because obviously he speaks perfect French, right? So he made his point

dan-ryan--he-him-_1_09-24-2024_152355: That's unreal. So I have like different categories for people and, know, I thought that that persona was like a TV persona.

marion--she-her-_1_09-25-2024_072355: No,

dan-ryan--he-him-_1_09-24-2024_152355: it, but also like his success and everything that there's many different ways to achieve what he's [00:14:00] achieved. Right. Um, but one of the, one of those archetypes of personality I call uncompromising visionary.

marion--she-her-_1_09-25-2024_072355: indeed.

dan-ryan--he-him-_1_09-24-2024_152355: it's really almost like, Bonaparte, or a Caesar, or a, I don't know, some, you name the star, you name the star architect. But, um, so much good can come out of that, but there's like a cost along the way. Because I wonder how many people just fell aside and lost their love for hospitality and the passion. You, you rose to the occasion. Um, and harm, no foul on, on how he runs. Like some people just are wired to go a certain way.

And I trust and respect how they do that. But there's so many different types of personalities that have achieved success in our world. and maybe that's a really good segue to, you know, having that experience and learning so much. Then coming to New York, finding Avroco and then kind of what you've built there and, and how it's. [00:15:00] Achieved success, but maybe in a different way. And really thinking about like, I don't know, from the, from the, the business and the execution and like, I think what's so unique about, from a design perspective with Avroco, and the, all the projects and everything that's been, Amazing that you guys have worked on and all the critically acclaimed and all the awards that you've won. But guys also operate a lot of businesses and food and beverage businesses and branding businesses. And I'm just curious, like, how that difference has kind of helped you spread your wings and grow and, and really rise to the occasion to become a managing partner or the managing partner of Avroco Hospitality Group.

marion--she-her-_1_09-25-2024_072355: Yeah, and I appreciate the question. Yeah, it's, you know, I, I loved Avroco. I had my eyes on it when I was living in the UK. Um, and, but hey, I'm not a designer, right? So I just, you know, I had this idea that I would one day join Avroco, but thought, how do I, how do I fit here? and yeah, my [00:16:00] experience specifically working with Gordon, I've really learned every aspect of the hospitality.

He made me work and, you know, Back of house, front of house, kitchen, the bar, you know, um, all kinds of things that give me a kind of a speedy management training, right? I never went to hospitality school or anything like that, but I felt like I got a bit of a shortcut to that. So I had a really good, holistic kind of view of the hospitality industry.

Um, Which, you know, given that Avroco, when I started in 2007, that's the year that you and I potentially had a drink together. We still don't know. you know, the Avroco was quite unique in the sense where it was a hospitality, it was a design practice with a focus on hospitality. And in order to sort of show that, Hey, we're going to do hospitality design differently, actually open a restaurant, which is quite remarkable when you think of it and not a small restaurant, right.

Public was a, you know, 5, 000 square foot restaurant that used to be a muffin factory. It was quite a, quite a visionary exercise to sort of turn that into, into a restaurant and, and [00:17:00] an incredibly successful restaurant, no less. I mean, it won two James Beard awards the year it opened and obviously had an admission star for eight years.

Um, So it just, you know, the AVRACO was a design practice, but rooted in hospitality and, and I think I went along for the ride because I could speak to that hospitality piece, which was the sort of the backbone of the work. And, you know, when, what I think is,

dan-ryan--he-him-_1_09-24-2024_152355: Public, public had a Michelin star.

marion--she-her-_1_09-25-2024_072355: yeah, we got it in 2008, it all the way through. It

dan-ryan--he-him-_1_09-24-2024_152355: an awesome neighborhood restaurant, like, and I loved it. And it was so casual and comfortable. I had no idea it had a Michelin star. Wow. That makes it even more amazing it's like a humble brag almost, but like it made it more amazing in like looking back in retrospect. Wow.

marion--she-her-_1_09-25-2024_072355: suddenly pushed boundaries because obviously, you know, Michelin in a lot of people's minds means, uh, tablecloths and formal service, right. It was just no tablecloths, music raging. And so it's, [00:18:00] it's, it's an interesting one. Cause you kind of always toe in the line and like, how do I want to do, I want to have this genuine, exciting kind of hospitality experience, but I kind of, obviously need to maintain my standards to, Keep that star, right?

So it was, uh, yeah, it was an interesting journey. yeah,

dan-ryan--he-him-_1_09-24-2024_152355: and then also when I think about the projects that you guys have designed, but even on the FMB stuff that you own and operate and also have designed or consulted on, There's like this certain element of, I don't know if it's like, I guess luxury or like that, like of a certain level, right? there's a whole spectrum of projects that you guys have worked on. And there's some really interesting, um, areas that I was actually surprised to learn from you that you're going into and like, basically placemaking for Places that would not be a typical project or clientele or whatever that you'd be working on. Like what's most exciting about all those other channels? I, and if you want to share some of those channels that you, that y'all are working on.

marion--she-her-_1_09-25-2024_072355: [00:19:00] Yeah, oh gosh, I could speak about that for hours. But yeah, and you're exactly right. Like most people know of Ivorco as the interior design practice that works exclusively in the, almost exclusively in the sort of the high end luxury world, you know, designing those jewel box type sort of restaurants and hotels and whatnot.

But, um, That's true of Avroco, but we have other companies within the group, including Avroco Hospitality Group, which I'm representing today, Brand Bureau, et cetera, et cetera, that are global practices that work across all tiers and sectors within the hospitality industry. Um, and that might mean, of course, luxury as well, right?

We work very closely with Avroco on a lot of projects, but that might also mean anything from cruise ships. We, um, Worked with Richard Branson on the F& B strategy and concept development for Virgin Voyages, which was his take on, on cruise ship that launched a few years ago. We work on, we do a lot of fast casual work, an area, a super interesting area at the moment is all inclusives, which you wouldn't think [00:20:00] again as, as an Avroco project, it's not an Avroco design project, but it's an Avroco strategy project.

Um, there's a lot happening in that. A lot, lot, lot happening in this area where literally every flag, uh, that you can think of, every hotel group that you can think of is rushing to develop an all inclusive experience. Um, as there's a tremendous amount of interest from the, the, the travelers post post pandemic and from a business sense, um, it's, it's, it's really huge.

It's great. It's a, it's a little more predictable and a little safer than your traditional EP, your traditional resort or hotel. So we're seeing a lot of activity in, in all inclusives and, you know, some other parts of hospitality work that we do. And again, I'm passionate about and I guess I'm most passionate about the power of hospitality.

So we advise a lot of folks on how to, um, Use that power, right? How to use, uh, the sort of the power of hospitality in placemaking, you know, talking to a lot of developers doing great work in major cities, and [00:21:00] advising them on how to strategize around the use of hospitality, um, in, in their developments.

also do a bunch of work with, uh, you know, brands, um, uh, and thinking about hospitality experiences through a brand lens. It's quite a different experience than developing a physical space, right? Like another example is we're working with National Geographic Society at the moment and a strict NDA. So I'll talk about what I can talk about.

Um, I mean, essentially they're working on a, Very substantial, very significant development in D. C., their hometown, and we're basically being tasked to develop food and beverage experiences, uh, food and beverage concepts, um, that will be the first time, National Geographic has never had restaurants and bars, right?

So,

dan-ryan--he-him-_1_09-24-2024_152355: what an incredibly experiential, Concept because Nat Geo, that's like the ultimate experience. When you think about just their whole catalog of old magazines and the brand and travel. And

marion--she-her-_1_09-25-2024_072355: That's it. I anecdotally [00:22:00] asked one of our clients, uh, you know, as part of a brainstorming session, we're talking about the ocean and I was like, Hey, what's the best way for me to get a hold of anything you guys have, you know, on ocean and the sea, and they have this huge catalog, right? They have this huge archive and database.

And he just went in and he said something to the extent of like, I have 13, 242 entries. How would you like me to share this with you? So, you know, it's just an incredibly fascinating project, um, because you really have to think about F& B through the lens of that brand, through the lens of its mission, uh, and with all the sort of the content that's available.

And, you know, when, People ask me what I do and I explain. I think people think, oh gosh, so you create this like super cool themed environments and my head, I think like Rainforest Cafe, nothing wrong with the Rainforest Cafe, but this is not what we do. We sort of really try to find the sort of the, the unique sort of point of view and the narrative to sort of create.

Really environments that are sort of really ownable by the brand that makes sense and that [00:23:00] evokes the sort of the right feelings, you know, not dissimilar to sort of a, uh, you know, when designers create this kind of really rich and exciting concept narrative that, you know, will be experienced through the design, we, we often, we can do that through the lens of a brand is, is really trying to sort of connect guests to that brand through the experience

dan-ryan--he-him-_1_09-24-2024_152355: I find like going back to the public experience and then all the other projects that I've actually been into, like from Asia to

throughout North America, and I'm sure in Europe, but I can't think of one right now, but I just, whenever I walk into one of the places that you guys have worked on, um, There's just, I don't know how to describe it other than there's like this like, it's like a glow or a warmth or a, I don't know, I just feel like I'm in a, it's not like a brand or a narrative's hitting me over the head, but I feel immersed in it.

I don't really know how to put that into words,

but I think, you know, going back to that no you can't or the constraint thing, I'm, I'm intrigued to [00:24:00] how you, get that glow or that warmth or that feeling within a cruise ship where there's incredible constraints on one side to all the other projects where you, you know, your operational experiences with restaurants and just in the, in any FMB situation, you have a constraint of a P and L and a balance sheet as well, right?

Cause you have to. Or, um, I don't know, like how do you guys address those constraints of like the physical constraints? How does your experience operating these places, owning and operating these places, and working within the constraint of a P& L and a balance sheet, how do you bring that perspective to all of the projects, I assume all of the projects that you're working on?

marion--she-her-_1_09-25-2024_072355: That's such a good question. And I think that's, that's part of what has always connected me to, to Avroco is yes, Avroco is an inter design [00:25:00] practice, but because we have that backbone of hospitality and because the vast majority of, you know, our designers actually have, Worked in restaurants. So I've kind of hopped behind the bar being one of our bars or just a bar to sort of understand how it works.

And because we, you know, spend some time talking about, yeah, how does a restaurant P& L work and there's a broad understanding of, of the industry and what it takes to make a restaurant work that I think is at the back of everyone's mind at all times. And it's so important, you know, we're chatting. You and I, and you're asking me, like, if you had a magic wand, I'd say, Hey, have a magic wand.

I just wish everybody who touches hospitality in any way, I wish everybody could either work in a restaurant for a week or two, or read a playbook about, and read a playbook about, you know, how restaurants work and that. P& L. And even, you know, I find myself, how many times before clients or staff or have I done a kind of a back of a napkin.

Hey, this is a restaurant P& L, right? You've got your revenue and you've got all your kind of [00:26:00] buckets of cost from labor to food and et cetera, et cetera. And that leaves very small margin, very small margins. And then if you think about, um, you know, the investment that's required to open a restaurant, um, It's huge.

It's huge. And you have those very small margins. And that means your payback period is, you know, you're lucky if you pay back your initial investment in five, six years, but Hey, at the same time, 80 percent of restaurants in the U S closed within the first five years. So what, what, what does that mean?

Where does that leave us? So it's, it's an incredibly challenging, Business. But I think that's where we thrive is by knowing you, you have to go face the reality, right? You can't design a concept and experience in a vacuum and just stick some cool shit to the wall and hope it sticks. You have to work within reality, the reality of this industry.

And I think that's what is, is unique about us is that we think about, we think about those things. We ask the questions we challenge because we're like, Hey, we, we want this to work. We want this to work for everyone. yeah, we're pretty, uh, Pretty open minded about that.

On [00:27:00] the bar or restaurant front, when you talk about the, um, just the investment, right? So the types of projects that you're working on, I assume have a tremendous capital investment up front, right? Because you're really transforming this place to get this glow and warmth. How when you're speaking to an owner, how do you say, Hey, we have this vision.

You're talking to us, first of all, so we have a shared vision, number one. Number two, we think that. This perspective and this execution and this investment is going to pay back in five or fewer years. And these are all the reasons why. How do you get some of your clients to, if they're, if they're having any kind of nervousness or trepidation about taking that step, how do you kind of convince them or give them, um, support and strength of like, okay, this is the right decision.

Let's go. Being an owner of, of a business, Locations on your own. Like, how do you, how do you take that your experience and say, okay, come [00:28:00] along with me and trust. Yeah. Yeah. That's a really good question. And I think, you know, that, What you just described is kind of was the impetus of, um, this, this division that I, that I've run within the part of the Abraco family is, is that strategy piece, right?

And because oftentimes we would find ourselves, you know, having clients approach us in the Abraco world and say, Hey, can you, can you design my restaurant? Um, and, We'd have questions. We'd be like, what, what are we designing? Like, what's, who, who is going to come to that restaurant? why will they come?

Why do they care? Or it could be that folks, you know, ask us to design their restaurant and say, Hey, like you guys are owners and operators. Like, what would you do? What would you design? What kind of concept would you do? So we'd find ourselves doing a lot of kind of back of a napkin. Oh, this is, you know, we get.

To your point, we go to public, we go to another one, another restaurant, probably have a couple of Negronis and we get excited and write a whole bunch of stuff on a, on a napkin. And we're like, actually, we can do a lot better than that. And that was, I mean, granted that was 15 plus years ago. So over the years, we've really developed a, a, quite [00:29:00] a, a unique, process, essentially strategy process, which is the core of what my team and I do, right.

It's strategy and concept development, uh, to sort of really give a strong foundation to, to projects. So I'd say about sort of. 30 to 40 percent of projects we work on, we collaborate with Avroco, meaning we'll, we'll do that early part, right? We'll do that strategy and that concept development and develop the why of a concept.

And then Avroco would, would design. And I think, you know, I know you have a lot of designers listening. I'm sure they've, we've All been in that situation where they start designing, you know, a project, super excited, you love the brief, you jump right in, and you're like, oh, this is cool, I'm thinking of the narrative, I'm thinking of all those things, and you start designing, and you're in concepts, or even in schematic, and you're like, well, actually, I have questions, right?

It's like, who am I designing for? Like, who's coming? How long are they here for? What kind of experience? Like, okay, there's an open bar, there's an open kitchen, but are they sitting in that open kitchen? And, you know, it's like, This bar is super cool that I'm designing. But wait, what's actually happening at the bar?

Like are people just, is it 3D five [00:30:00] days a week? Or is it a bar that people will sit at and have like an elevated experience at? So we, we essentially, when we collaborate with Abraco, we hear to sort of answer a lot of those questions and develop that robust sort of concept foundation that to our previous point is rooted in.

The realities of restaurants, right? We're developing concepts that make sense financially and operationally, and we're uniquely positioned to do so because we are owners ourselves. But we also kind of want to create concepts that stick things that, you know, are interesting that people want to go to.

And that's really, that's sort of that strategy piece where we think about the why and the when, and who's going to be going to those restaurants and for what reason, and what's going to happen. Why are they going to be excited to go? And why do they want to tell their friends and why do they want to come back?

And so we, we have a whole sort of process that we've developed essentially, which constitutes the, literally what I spend my days doing is, is that finding the why and developing experiences around the world that, um, Abraco other designers can, can bring to life essentially. So [00:31:00] I want to pull on this one a bit where if you said the hospitality group is working and, and coming up with a strategy, what would that be?

Countless restaurants or bars. 30 to 40 percent of the projects are Avroco designed, but what are the 60 to 70 that are by others? Like how are you brought in and how, how do you play well with other design firms who are executing it? Yeah, well, I think we, we play, I'd like to think exceptionally well, because Designers are in our DNA, that's, you know, part of our, being part of the family.

So we speak the same language, right? And the work that we do when we're not collaborating with Abraco, oftentimes will involve issuing a brief to interior designers. And, um, supporting through the development. So again, if I use, you know, the National Geographic project as an example, we've, we've developed the concepts and we've issued a brief as to what the interiors, [00:32:00] uh, you know, all the things that the designers should know to design that space.

And then we continue staying involved through the design process to sort of bring that, that hospitality. Peace and be, you know, candidly be the guardians of the concept we've developed, right? Because oftentimes things sort of shift through design and, and we kind of bring that expertise and bring the sort of the, with the advocates of that concept to make sure it gets executed per the vision and per what's been approved by the clients and whatnot.

So, and because we speak that language, we're able to give, I think, quite Quite clear and quite constructive sort of feedback that, that will resonate and will be easier to interpret for, for those designers. So I think we, we do play nice and it's exciting to see other, other folks sort of design, work as well.

So yeah, I think that's a piece that folks don't necessarily think about is, yeah, we, we collaborate with Africa, but as I said, it's probably only in sort of 30 ish percent of cases. Wow. So again, that's amazing. So on the 70%, if you have a new, uh, a new project kicking off. You as [00:33:00] Avroco Hospitality Group then are you doing it in a silo within Avroco or are you saying like, Hey, Brand Barrow, help me come up with the branding.

Hey, um, F& B Group, like, let's come up with a P& L and, Figure out staffing and operationally how everything works. Hey, design, you're not going to be working on this, but like, help us just come up with something to like, kind of get it into the, into the neighborhood of what this owner is or, or client is trying to develop.

Is it, so you break down those walls for all the projects that you're working on and bring all that to the table? Yeah, we do to some extent. I mean, it's, it's very much part of our DNA. You know, like we've talked about, I've, been in the company for 17 years and I've managed interior design projects.

I'm co manager of Brand Bureau, uh, uh, Brand Studio. And, and, uh, a lot about the folks that are with me in the have similar backgrounds. So between our Kind of personal experiences and the processes we've developed. A lot of that is embedded in the [00:34:00] process, but oftentimes, yeah, we'll bring in Avroco folks and say, Hey, we're working on this super cool concept.

Here's what we're doing, et cetera. Can you help us sort of flesh out this piece or can I get your thoughts on that piece? And having access to that, right. Having access to this pool of experts internally is amazing. And in addition to that, what I think is quite unique because obviously Avroco is, is, um, You know, we have offices in Bangkok, London, San Francisco, Miami, et cetera, et cetera.

And, and the work, the design work is, is very localized. You know, there's a clear jurisdiction for each, each office, which makes sense. Right. Cause oftentimes it isn't design needs to be informed by, you know, a lot of the local context and you need to know about your vendors and resources and whatnot.

Whereas on the Abercross we have the core teams in house. But we work globally, um, so we literally have folks in, you name it, all over the place in Spain, in New Zealand, as we've talked about, in the US, in Southeast Asia, because the work we [00:35:00] do is, um, is, is very broad. As we've discussed, Abraco works pretty much exclusively in the luxury realm, whereas one day we may be working on a fast casual concept in Peru, and then the next day, we may be developing a high end bar experience in Japan.

And, We need to understand that local context and we also need to, um, you know, have folks that have expertise in that local context in that particular area. It takes a very different experience to develop a high end bar than it does to develop a fast casual concept. So we have a lot of folks that we're bringing that actually.

we have a network of trusted consultants that we work with regularly, that we bring in on projects based on the project needs, um, that we marry obviously with our internal team that has that Avroco DNA, right? That understands about restaurant operations, that understands about design and branding and all of those things.

And we marry that sort of Specialized and localized knowledge with the aco, DNA. And I think [00:36:00] that's what's quite unique about us, is just the, I think that's, um, we assume that everything comes out of New York, or, but we actually have that sort of, that brand trust, that core team that we, we pair with, with local experts essentially.

so going back to the constraint thing. So a cruise ship is a constraint, but walk me through in that 70%. Where you're not doing the design. like all inclusive is definitely growing and, um, all the brands are very hot to trot and it's a real good growth area, but like a cruise ship without as many constraints, obviously there are still constraints, but you have so many different F& B experiences.

I actually have never, I've always wanted to bring. My family on it. We've traveled a lot. I've always wanted to go just try and all inclusive. I've never done it. but I want to, for some reason, I really want to try it. But like, How do you take your hospitality group and all of your experience from branding and operations, et cetera, et cetera.

And give us an example of a project where you're not doing the [00:37:00] design and like how you're bringing your expertise into that far flung exotic place. And like how, how you're getting all those different parties to work together. Well, that involves, uh, experiencing the product and the, the experiences.

Um, so that involves a lot of travel, a lot of eating, a lot of drinking. Do you want to, do you want to join? We'll go without the kids first. We'll do a grownup trip first. Okay. Well, part of our process is obviously to understand that the ask and oftentimes understand. The problem or the challenge, right?

If it was easy to crack, um, folks would do it themselves. It's like, why do you bring in a third party if, you know, it's just You know, super easy to figure out. So we have a process that enables us to sort of really understand the local sort of context. If we're talking, we're talking about a specific, you know, a project and it's a particular area.

Put us in a country. Okay. A recent project, well, very dear to my heart as well. We're developing concepts for three very [00:38:00] iconic, sorry, we just have so many NDAs, a very iconic five star hotel brands in French Polynesia. So two in Bora Bora and one in Tahiti. so needless to say, I, we know we had to travel to the location and that was horrible.

Um, and, um, but the, you know, again, it's what we bring to the table. It's, it's a process that gives. In this case, the owners, the confidence that where the food and beverage experiences have really been considered. And there's been a sort of a, there's been strategic work done to ensure that all everyone's sort of key concerns were really considered and that we were thinking about the sort of the, whatever success looks like, right?

In this instance is, is, um, having hotels that, uh, becomes part of, you know, the top 10 hotels in the world and listed, you know, across all those sort of the, you know, the usual sort of lists. And how do we do that? We know that F& B and [00:39:00] hospitality plays a huge, huge part of that. So how do we create F& B outlets?

That are compelling, sustainable, that makes sense for the brand. So we have an entire process to, to essentially come to the sort of conclusion. So it's really about understanding who's doing what locally. Like folks are, okay, so we're talking about Bora Bora, for example. There's just, um. You have the Four Seasons, the Conrad, and Two Intercontinentals.

I mean, it's just really, really beautiful properties. Like, so who is going, who's going there? Why are they going there? What's already there? Is there a white space? Is it something that no one's doing? Is there a particular Something that we're trying to solve. I mean, a very specific kind of micro, um, sort of problem here is, you know, it's very difficult to go from one island to the other.

We're doing some interviews with some guests and some staff, and they're saying, you know, it's as much as we love Bora Bora, it's beautiful. We find ourselves a little bit constrained, like you're there for two, three days, and you, you know. Get a little bit bored of sitting at the beach and it's very difficult to go from one island to the [00:40:00] other.

And so one of the things we discuss with the client is like, hey, what can we do to sort of encourage that? Like, is there a way for us to bring people in from other resorts and other parts of the island to the hotel so that we can, you know, have guests from other properties come visit to make the program more dynamic?

Because in order to have, you know, tying back the reality of restaurants in order for restaurants to be sustainable, you need to have people in them. And if you have 150 key, you know, luxury hotel, you know, how many guests you're going to have in your room. Um, and you know, how many of them are going to be dining at your restaurants.

You need to have a very compelling mix of restaurants, but in order to. Have those restaurants be financially sustainable. You need folks from other properties or outside of the hotel to come visit. Otherwise you're just not going to be able to sustain those restaurants, That's surprising to me.

I never heard of. An all inclusive place wanting outsiders to come in. It's not a non inclusive, sorry, caveat. There's a no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. The sort of the strategy piece. but yeah, so it's [00:41:00] thinking about all of those things and what problem do we need to solve in order to sort of achieve, achieve the goals.

Um, in the context of an all inclusive fascinating, cause the first thing, you know, When you start a project, first thing a client tells you is your budget for food and beverage per person per day. I won't share what that is because you will be shocked. No, I bet it's shocking. And that's probably why I haven't been to many, I think.

You'd be surprised like what absolutely stunned me. I knew that number for the particular project where we're working on. Um, and then you want the target number was going to be for us. And I went to probably 15 to 20 all inclusive hotels in the Riviera Maya and some five plus stars. Absolutely incredible, incredible, incredible experience in power with some really, really destination luxury resorts, EP resorts.

and I was like, how do they do it? And that's kind of like understanding the sort of the nuts and bolts is fascinating. And in this particular case, one of the key things is just critical mass. And, you know, the, just the fact that they, Those [00:42:00] properties are huge and the beauty of all inclusives is that obviously you can control your cost, you know exactly where people are going to be, what they're going to be consuming, when you can plan everything perfectly, um, so that, control element is huge.

And obviously you don't have that in a, in an EP result. So again, I can talk about that for instance, but it's amazing what you can achieve in, in all inclusives with budgets that are. Well, it really helps to also have the captive audience I imagine and having that the max spend Like all in for food and labor and overhead for each one again That's a constraint like it's it's a shocking constraint But it really I think that's the best decisions and most creative outcomes usually come from when there's really extreme constraints And I think, I mean, that's what all, that's what drives all innovation, right?

And I think that's what we're really excited about. And, and obviously the hospitality industry goes, it's very resilient, goes through [00:43:00] tough times, and there's a lot of things that happen that create. Those new restrictions that we have to, to navigate. And that's, that's the core of our work is, you know, like, how do we provide sustainable solutions for, for clients, for the projects we work on based on those raising sort of challenges?

I mean, one, one big one that at the moment that, uh, is more prevalent in some markets, but. industry is the labor cost, right? It's just incredibly expensive to run restaurants these days. And how do you create experiences that are sustainable yet that, um, you know, have that sort of that hospitality component.

Um, and it's increasingly difficult to do, and it's, it's pushing us to sort of, you know, the use of technology, the use of really smart sort of polish, sort of hospitality, sort of, uh, techniques and approach to hospitality in order to deliver that impactful personal sort of experience. And it's, it's, there's no silver bullet.

It's not an easy Question to answer, but it's [00:44:00] just forcing us to develop new things, new systems in order to, in order to do that. So from the 10 franc shopping spree that grandma gave you to working for Gordon Ramsey to your evolution and growth, tremendous growth within Avroco and Avroco's tremendous growth globally.

what's exciting you about what you're doing? What you're seeing out in the future. That's a really good question. I think, it's the fact that, as I said, our industry is resilient and that we, I think, have the opportunity with the work that we do. We have the opportunity to continue to, educate is the wrong word, but should have shed light on what the industry is like and some of the challenges that it experiences.

And we're able to sort of move the needle a little bit, you know, um, My, my business partner, Adam Farmery and I, uh, so Adam, one of the founders of Avroco, um, you know, in the early days of our consulting days on the strategy side, [00:45:00] specifically, he and I were running around the world trying to speak to, you know, the various leaders of hotel groups and basically saying like, hey, hospitality is so powerful.

You think of your hotel right now as a business. The business of rooms, but we think there's a real opportunity to, to sort of evolve that. And your restaurants could be a lot more than just in a mini. It's could be, they could be a lot more than just a place where your guests have breakfast. And then you look at how far we've come.

And that way you look at the likes of the Hoxton Chicago. I don't know if you've been there on a Saturday night, but this is a really fun place to be. It's really moved the needle and really shifted the, the, the, the sort of the basic hotel model where I want to say probably 30 percent of the revenue comes from the FNB and the halo of the appeal of the FNB as a huge impact on the hotel business itself.

So it's really exciting to think about the evolution of, of hospitality and us being a part of that. And I think the main thing is just, yeah, helping, Books that have real power to impact the industry, [00:46:00] um, to make the right decisions that are right for the industry to sort of, you know, we, everyone knows the power of hospitality, everyone knows the power of a concept within a real estate development and, and for us to be able to explain that so that perhaps those real estate developers are really willing to really understanding why they should support, um, you know, young up and coming restauranteur that wants to do this really cool restaurant, but doesn't have the capital.

It doesn't have the 2 million to take a 15 year lease and, and, you know, build this entire restaurant. So we can be part of that conversation to sort of help explain the impact that that restaurant might have. And why, you know, a developer that's spending, you know, uh, 250 million on a development could say, a meal helping, a young restauranteur to sort of break, like reduce that barrier to entry.

And that to me is really exciting to think of the role we can have, um, sort of helping make the hospitality industry, uh, a more sustainable, uh, business. I would say it's not just sustainable, but like [00:47:00] one of the evolutions I've seen in hotels over the past 20 years is that F& B, like you said, it was a place you could have breakfast, but it was really like a drag on the P& L.

It didn't, it was, it was a laggard. Right. But what I've seen, especially in the independent hotel space, um, and even, yeah, mostly in the independent one, you, you said 30 percent of The hotel's revenue coming from F& B, like that's shocking, but I've been to some independent hotel conferences where they're actually banking on, you know, 30 to 60 percent of the revenue of a hundred or 150 room hotel to come from the F& B and mostly the B probably, but the F also, and, and it's just, it's unbelievable, but in order to do that, there's a tremendous amount of vision, strategy, investment, and execution, and that's kind of going back to.

That earlier question about like, how do you get [00:48:00] an owner or a client to really take that step and invest in that restaurateur, invest in this, invest in that, because. I think many people, when they think of hospitality, they don't think of F& B taking such a prominent role or a percentage of the P& L.

How have you seen that over the past 17 or 19 years since you've been at Abraco? You know, we're chipping away at it. And I think, you know, I think you've met Adam Farmory. He's a pretty convincing fella. Uh, so he was certainly instrumental to sort of convincing some early folks to take the leap and just do, you know, uh, and, and give this a shot.

So I think it's a combination of, The fact that we understand the industry, we understand the problems, and we can speak pretty pragmatically to that. And, um, I'd like to think that we, we, we have vision and we can see sort of the, the path that things are, uh, are taking. And the fact that, you know, by chipping away at it and, and by, you know, uh, clients sort [00:49:00] of, You know, a handful of clients being excited to sort of jump on board with us and us actually doing the work with then able to sort of showcase and be like, Hey, we've done it here and it's worked, you know, look at this case studies, you've developed a, uh, a portfolio of case studies.

Um, it would be interesting over the past, you know, since Averico's inception to just show, or really, and since they've been doing hotels, but just to show how, The percentage of revenue has grown or could grow. Like I almost like a, do a graph and just show with, with case studies of how it's happened.

Cause I think it's really tremendously surprising to me. And it's a real, um, it's almost flipped. Operations of hotels kind of on their head, but you kind of have to, sometimes it happens like an accident, like bottled lightning. It was not intentional, but I think the more and more I'm seeing, like you can definitely be strategic and intentional about it and really outperform.[00:50:00]

in whatever location you're in because of if FNB is done correctly. That's right. And I can't tell you, I think we, we, we have some lines that we hear a lot in the past 10 years, how many projects started where we're being asked to Create the next Ace Lobby. How do I create the next Ace Lobby? You know, when it came online, how many years ago?

Probably sort of 15, 14. It was revolutionary. Everyone was like, wow, I can have a place where local folks come and hang, and not just guests of the hotel. And guests are going to want to stay in that hotel, because they want to hang out with people. The musician who's hanging downstairs and the artist and the whatnot.

And so I think there have been, you know, in our industry, whether it's projects that we've worked on or not, there have been examples that become super aspirational. And obviously given the work that we do, we've kind of dissected those examples to the core. You know, we, we understand the, you know, oftentimes when we're having to sort of peel the magic layer to get to the bottom of it, to understand how the [00:51:00] mechanics work.

So it's, at the end of the day, like, it's, it's a bit of, it's a bit of magic. It's a bit of vision, but it's also, you know, we've been doing this for a long time, so you, you become a bit of an expert, you gather, you know, um, data, you gather case studies again, being your own or, uh, you know, other projects that you, you see around the world.

Um, so it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's a bit of magic and a bit of, a bit of experience. Yeah, but it's all intentional placemaking really, right? Wow So if you could go back to when Gordon Ramsay said that you had to lose your French accent Like if you could be you back then knowing everything, you know now would you have acted differently?

Cause I think that's, that's the journey. That's what kind of pushed me and motivated me. I think we all have our own kind of experiences that just make us who we are. Um, I think I'd be pretty bad. And you know, he's, he's still a friend and a mentor. He's, he's actually, you think he would have fired you or continued to hire you if you threw the, some of those beeps back at him.

Oh, goodness. Yeah. He had very little [00:52:00] tolerance for, uh, for any of that. So a hundred percent fired, but that's, Oh, he wouldn't have respected you? Oh, he's no, I think he's a, he would have seen through all of that probably, but yeah, he's a pretty, he doesn't take a lot of, it doesn't take a lot of shit.

Let me just, excuse my French, but yeah, but no, he's a fundamental. He's been to a lot of our restaurant openings and he's, he's awesome. So yeah. Wonderful. Well, um, this has just been a wonderful experience and. Walk down to the first iPhone and chicken brain pancakes from when you were five. Um, but this has just been wonderful.

And like, I don't know, it's so interesting to just see how Avroco has evolved and created all these, um, specialties and, um, Thank you for sharing the story and the vision and, and the path forward. I appreciate it so much. If people wanted to learn more about you or Avroco, uh, or Avroco Hospitality Group, what's the best way for them to do that?

[00:53:00] Yes. Super easy to find me. I mean, it's, I'm literally marionetteavroco. com. I'm on LinkedIn, the website and whatnot. So if you want to find me, you absolutely can always open to conversations for sure. Fantastic. So a wholehearted merci to you. I appreciate you so much for coming on from halfway around the world and, and, and sharing your story.

I appreciate you so much. Thank you so much for having me, Dan. I really enjoyed the conversation. Also, thank you to all of our listeners. Really, we wouldn't be talking to Marion, um, halfway around the world if it wasn't for everyone still tuning in. And there's so much learning and impact and anything struck of this struck a chord with you, please pass it along.

I mean, we're always evolving. People are always evolving. Their needs are always evolving. And I think that businesses are always evolving and to hear this, and see the continued evolution. But to be able to look under the hood of Abraco, um, from your perspective has been really illuminating for me. So thank you and thank you everyone.

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