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A board-certified family law attorney, Jaime Davis and her guests provide information and tips for getting through a separation and divorce without destroying family relationships or finances. From marriage therapists and financial planners to private investigators and parenting coordinators, learn how to navigate divorce without destruction.
Jaime - 00:00:05:
Welcome to A Year and a Day. I'm Jaime Davis, board-certified family law attorney at Gaylor Hunt. On this show, I talk with lawyers, psychologists, and other experts with the goal of helping you navigate divorce without destruction. In this episode, I'm talking with Victoria Kirilloff, a certified divorce financial analyst, certified divorce specialist, and nationally certified professional mediator. Victoria's personal experience with a difficult divorce led her to create Divorce Analytics and the Divorce Impact Analysis Report, a tool that helped her navigate a challenging separation and inspired her to help others do the same. Victoria focuses on providing financial clarity and transparency in divorce. Turning a typically destructive process into a productive one. Her innovative approach is outlined in her nine-part divorce planning kit, available at divorceanalytics.com. Victoria is passionate about lifelong learning and continually expands her expertise to empower individuals going through the divorce process. Thanks for joining me, Victoria.
Victoria - 00:01:18:
Thank you for having me, Jamie.
Jaime - 00:01:19:
So I am going to jump right in. What is the Divorce Impact Analysis Report?
Victoria - 00:01:27:
Well, you need to begin a divorce with an end in mind. Especially if you're trying to preserve relationships and resources. And when you are going through the divorce process, it's truly the biggest financial transaction of your life outside of a death. And the only way to understand all of the implications of uncoupling is truly to put together a financial report. And that's exactly what a divorce impact analysis is.
Jaime - 00:01:54:
What sorts of information go into that report?
Victoria - 00:01:57:
Well, it really varies based off of the family that I'm working with. But for the most part, their financial implications are around three different areas. The first one is around spousal support, depending on the state that you're in. You can have different calculations for short-term or long-term support, and you really need to be mindful, regardless of whatever calculation you're doing, you are using facts. Spousal support tends to be one of the more contentious topics in the divorce process, and by really focusing on the historical information to figure out what your marital standard of living was, and then to project forward your post-divorce cost of living, but then, oh, considering the payor's ability to pay and the recipient's earning capacity, you're able to determine an amount that enables your, well, your clients to have empowered conversations so they know exactly what they're dealing with when it comes to the cash flow changes that are associated with uncoupling.
Jaime - 00:02:56:
In my experience, nobody wants to pay spousal support regardless of the case. And I think it's even more difficult, at least here in North Carolina where I practice, there is no formula for determining spousal support. And so it really is up to the lawyers and the financial analysts to determine what the person's budget is and how much money they may need for spousal support.
Victoria - 00:03:19:
Well, and I have practiced in a variety of different states, and I have found the most applicable format is really that four-phase analysis, figuring out the historical marital standard of living, right? And so depending on the situation and the level of hostility in the divorce, we'll go back either one to five years to determine that baseline. You need a longer-term analysis if there's been some financial misgivings, or maybe there is a big cash flow change due to COVID. But you really need to determine what the marriage was historically going through each month and figure out what that top-line figure is. So then when you move to that post-divorce cost-of-living analysis, you really understand historically what each person is going to be looking at. And then the third thing being the payor's ability to pay, right? One of the biggest things that never gets talked about, and I feel like I can beat a drum all day long to this but your income taxes are going to change, and it sucks. But that is really the only gift the federal government is ever going to give you when you get married, is that handy-dandy married tax status. And when it comes to calculating your income taxes, this saves you tremendous amounts of money. Now, going through a divorce, you're either going to be looking at single or head-of-household filing status. So this change right there is going to create an additional tax burden every month of a few hundred to a few thousand dollars, depending on your tax bracket. So you absolutely need to be figuring out what each person is going to be owing in their new income taxes, because not only will they have more expenses, but they're not going to be making as much money. And then when you follow up with the fourth thing, which is really imputing income, if you have a spouse that maybe has not maximized their workplace skills or their, you know, working part-time when they could be working full-time, you have to really go through and figure out what they truly could be earning. You know, the goal of spousal support isn't to punish anybody. And chances are there was a balance of power within the marriage or maybe an imbalance of power, but somebody took care of the financial topics and the other person took care of household operations. Maybe they managed the kids. And with that, they took a leap of absence from their career. And so when you are creating a spousal support model, you really need to be building in economic triggers to provide that person that more levels of earlier on so they can rebuild their career, get established, do the vocational training, and then, you know, taper it off based off of, you know, really mindful events.
Jaime - 00:06:06:
I think the supporting spouse sometimes forgets that, that if the dependent spouse has been at home and has sacrificed their career to take care of the family, even though they may be just as educated and have similar work experience to the supporting spouse, it's going to take them a certain period of time to get their skills back up to speed and to really just get back out there in that job market. I mean, maybe they have some sort of licensure that they've let lapse and maybe they need to get that renewed or whatever the case may be. But I totally agree with you that in a lot of cases, it does make more sense to have more spousal support at the beginning of a separation or divorce than maybe several years down the road once that supporting spouse is back in the workforce and earning what they're capable of earning.
Victoria - 00:06:50:
Absolutely. And I've noticed the models that take care of both parties' needs work best. So if you have a spousal support schedule that actually has an end in mind, both parties can actually get behind that because the payor sees that there's light at the end of the tunnel, but then the recipient also sees that they have some runway to get going so they're not just going to have the rug pulled out from underneath them and have to have a dramatic change of lifestyle.
Jaime - 00:07:17:
Yeah, and one of the other things we run up against here in North Carolina, we have different terminating factors for alimony. And here, if you are the dependent spouse and you are receiving alimony and you cohabit with someone or you remarry, your spousal support ends. And so we see lots of cases where that dependent spouse does want to get more support up front because as the years go by, odds increase that he or she may get remarried or at least have a live-in significant other and their support is going to end. Whereas our supporting spouses are like, no, no, no, drag it out as long as we can because then my odds are better that my dependent spouse is going to find someone else and my obligation is going to end anyway.
Victoria - 00:07:58:
Well, I think you hit the nail on the head. There are so many different ways to pay spousal support. You have to figure out what method is right for you. And I deal a lot with high conflict divorces that are trying to go through mediation. And I have found that lump sum payouts are actually more beneficial. You have an upfront amount and you don't have ongoing communications with your soon-to-be ex-partner. And for whatever reason, sometimes that model tends to work best, especially if you're looking to cut contact.
Jaime - 00:08:29:
Yeah, I think it really depends on the risk and who wants to bear that risk. I think if you are married to someone that you think is likely to get remarried sooner or to live with someone, it may be better to not do a lump sum payout just because there is some chance, maybe a decent chance that your support obligation could completely terminate. But I'm totally with you on the communication. These folks are getting divorced for a reason. And to the extent they can limit their communication with one another, that's definitely a good thing. A lot of times we set up electronic payments just as a way to take out the middleman so that people aren't passing checks back and forth anymore. And that seems to help a little bit, I think.
Victoria - 00:09:09:
Yeah, definitely.
Jaime - 00:09:11:
So what personal insights did you gain from your divorce that now inform your approach to helping others manage this financial transition through divorce?
Victoria - 00:09:25:
Well, I've kind of always been a nerd. And my dad was a Russian nuclear engineer that worked for the CIA and had moved to the private sector by the time I was born. And he wanted to teach me how to be a numerical communicator. And so I had a very different upbringing, where I actually got to watch my father deal with highly disagreeable, but incredibly brilliant engineers and executives and really how he navigated these relationships taught me so much. And so He also, though, realized the importance of me being able to understand how math is applied in the real world. So I, like most kids, well, most little girls, I was begging my parents for a pony. And around eight years old, my dad, I kind of wore him down. And he said, OK. I would like you to do a life cycle cost analysis to determine. Just how much of this animal would be costing us if we did buy him. And I said, okay, Papa, you got it. So I went around the barn and I gathered information. I sat at my computer with my mom and we went through it and I typed up my report and then presented it to my parents. I really focused on the cash flow transition, right? From all of my activities, my mom had me in like piano, ballet and tap and voice. It was insane. But we could reallocate those funds, I realized, to the horse and it was still going to cost my family funds, but it was going to be a little bit more budgetable and doable. So my dad and his infinite wisdom realized that this was a great life lesson and ended up buying me Buster. So it taught me a really interesting life lesson. And that was the more that you understand the financial implications of a highly emotional request, the better off my chances were of getting it. And so fast forward to my relationship. I had fallen in love with my college sweetheart when I was 20 years old. And we had really grown together. But right around 25, my dad suffered a catastrophic stroke and my whole world changed. And this is when I had the opportunity to really examine my relationship with, I call him Voldemort. And. Our relationship started to get more and more toxic. Due to my family commitments with my dad, I wasn't able to immediately get out. But the abuse started to escalate. And I realized that I needed to get myself out of the situation. But for the first time in my life, I had to go through a big life event without my 900-pound Russian guerrilla father in the room. He had a very intimidating appearance, but he had a heart of gold. And one of the things he was constantly telling me was Victoria, if it cannot be expressed in numbers, it cannot be expressed at all. So I took that message and it really just imprinted upon my soul. And when I was now trying to figure out how to leave Voldemort, my father's words kept echoing in my mind. And I sat down at our computer and I just started figuring out all of the things that all the financial implications of uncoupling from him. And so I looked at our cash flow. I realized that, oh, gosh, like with my new financial business and with, you know, this massive house we had, I wasn't going to be wasn't going to be the most financially prudent thing for me to take over the home. And if he wanted to do so, he certainly could. But he would then have to buy out my shares. So after understanding the cash flow, I turned my attention to the property. And after figuring out what our total value was, I then developed two different strategies, essentially, for us to divide everything. One with him buying me out and the other with us selling the house and dividing everything equally. And I backstopped everything with documentation. I mean, that was like the tried and true thing in my household. If you wanted something, it needed to be documented and make a report. And that's exactly what I did with him. So when I was able to sit at our kitchen table, you know, he was able to go through and source all of the information, validate my numbers, and then within 20 minutes decide to go with option A. And it was so easy. I mean, our relationship had turned. I was scared for my life. But I also understood that my greatest skill set, thanks to my dad and some of the more interesting child rearing techniques he used on me, right? I have a different psychological matrix than most people. And I was able to help him help Voldemort essentially deal with his uncomfortable emotions and to help him emotionally regulate. So we would then be able to get throughout this uncoupling process in one piece. I mean, you can't do it for everybody. But in this situation, I felt like if I stayed engaged with him, if I led the negotiations, I would be able to get the job done in a much more streamlined fashion. I know his ins and outs and it worked for me. So some of my friends kind of saw that the success and they were dealing with their own divorces and they asked me to help. And that was how Divorce Analytics was born. Now I help people really replace their divorce fear with facts. But more importantly, have a really cost effective divorce process. This can be done improperly. It is very complex. But if you begin with an end in mind and have a global settlement proposal, you could go into the legal phase and have a streamlined negotiation instead of being delayed in the discovery process for God knows how long and then maybe getting a mediation date only then to have to go back because you don't have the right documents. I see it all the time. But by streamlining your financial process, you can have a proper divorce process. Phase, it will really help everything move easy in the legal phase as well.
Jaime - 00:15:19:
How do you help, usually it's women in these cases, but women who may not have access to the financial documents they need for the analysis?
Victoria - 00:15:30:
Well, that actually happens quite a bit. But most of the time, you know more than you think. And it's just a matter of kind of going through the process, starting writing all of the assets that you think that you own on a marital balance sheet. So your assets and your liabilities, but then also drilling down into your cash flow. And if you start keeping track of a journal, even if you aren't the one paying your bills, you can get an idea as to how much your lifestyle is costing. But oftentimes, you can go around and kind of gather information around the house. You can't open anybody else's mail. But if it's already open, you can look inside and just start gathering your data. On my divorceanalytics.com website, you can go to the free tools. And there's literally a four-page guide that will help you figure out all of the assets that you own. And that will be the basis then for your property division report. But a good place to start is your tax return. That's not going to have everything, but it will have the assets that are generating dividends. And when it comes down to it, if you do have questions, your spouse will have to be the one to answer them. And if you're more amicable, you can have an informal process. But if you are leaning towards litigation that's not so amicable, you are then maybe facing having to subpoena records and compel him to share the other person to share. So there's always a process of figuring out the next step. But the more information you can gather before you either inform the other person you want to divorce or take the next legal step phase, the more opportunity you actually have to kind of glean information before it might dry up.
Jaime - 00:17:11:
Yeah, I think that you just made a really great point about getting this information together before you even broach the subject of separation with your spouse. Because you're right, you know, the information starts to disappear once your spouse is on notice that you want to be divorced. And so to the extent you can just sort of in the background do some of this homework ahead of time, it's going to put you in a much better position as you're going through the process.
Victoria - 00:17:40:
Well, everybody wants this to be easy. And unfortunately, it's not. And I also think it's due to how long you might stay with your partner when you have already determined that the relationship's over. And maybe there's some fear, right? I was scared to leave Voldemort, even though it was a bad relationship, I was making my own money, I was still fearful to be on my own. So I completely understand that. But it's when you are not aware of the financial implications that you stay in that place of fear. So really, the more involved that you can get. And this process is going to be really heavy when it comes to the front end, you know, gathering all your information, determining what your budget is, right. And your budget is going to be one of the most important documents. Every single divorce professional you work with is going to ask you what is your budget, and you do not want to be making estimates. I see this all the time where people just kind of glass over, you know, how much money they spend each month. But when you're doing a spousal support, calculation, that's exactly the data that you will be using. And if you think, you know, we grow up in a capitalistic culture, and I can't tell you how many times I have sat with somebody, and they have told me that they only spend like $100 a month on clothing. And I know for a fact that is not true. I mean, they walk in with a new bag or some new shoes every time I see them. And so it's just having awareness, though. And a lot of us, you know, maybe we weren't the one paying the bills. And so it just takes some education. And the more that you can just break this down into manageable bite-sized steps, the easier it is. So you don't get analysis paralysis and stay in this relationship longer than necessary.
Jaime - 00:19:25:
And I think too, it's really helpful in helping with folks who think they may want to keep the house, but maybe they can't really afford the house. And so if the house is like this emotional hot button issue for you, and you're like wed to this idea of keeping the house. If you work with a financial professional and figure out whether or not you can afford it, that may be one of those issues you can let go of.
Victoria - 00:19:51:
Oh my gosh, so many people make this mistake, Jamie, where they think they want the house, but they don't actually take the next step of figuring out if they can afford the house and the refinance of the mortgage. And then they'll move forward with fighting for the home only then to get to that step after they've been awarded it, spend who knows how much money on arguing and then finally getting it, only then to have to turn around and sell it. So one of the most important things you can do is really figuring out what a reasonable post-divorce lifestyle would look like for yourself.
Jaime - 00:20:27:
Well, because if you end up keeping the house only to have to turn around and sell it, folks don't realize this, but then you're the one stuck with all of the closing costs and the repairs to get the house ready and all of the things that if the two of you had agreed to sell it together, they'd be split. And so you're having to bear all of this burden for these expenses that you could have had your spouse on the hook for had you only done some of that planning on the front end.
Victoria - 00:20:54:
Absolutely. And that also will impact your property division analysis. If you are not wanting the house, then maybe you can ask for another asset. Do some horse trading and figure out what assets are truly going to set you up for success in your next phase of life.
Jaime - 00:21:12:
So I know we have already talked about a couple of these, but in your experience, what are some of the most common financial pitfalls people encounter during divorce and how can they be avoided?
Victoria - 00:21:24:
Not advocating for themselves and allowing their financial analysis to become paralysis. And not getting the right help. This is truly a financial event. And if you are not maximizing the calculation to determine what the total marital estate is, you're setting yourself up to not, you know, have a good outcome. If you don't know what you own, how on earth are you going to figure out what an equitable distribution would be? So understanding that, you know, this is a math driven process. And if you're not a math person, that's okay. That's like why the whole divorce professional industry exists. So working with a certified divorce financial analyst will really help you understand, you know, your weaknesses and then build upon that. So you can have a property division proposal that gets accepted the first time and you don't constantly have to go back and renegotiate with your partner. That's a big thing. I would say another mistake people make is not beginning with an end in mind. They get distracted by little activities along the way, and maybe they'll end up trying to fight for the marriage, marital China, and they'll spend $15,000 on it. In reality, the marital China was worth like 50 bucks. And so kind of letting go and understanding that this process is not about punishment. It is all about using your divorce professionals to really recalibrate and rebuild your life so you can move forward with success. It's when you view divorce as like rehashing of what went wrong in the marriage that it's going to cost a heck of a lot of money and you're not going to have a good divorce outcome because that's not what this is about. Divorce is all about calculating your total marital estate and dividing it up and determining what spousal support would look like. If kids are involved, child support is a pretty easy calculation, but you have to have these really good negotiations and talks about additional topics like child support expenses or expenses that aren't covered by child support. So when you really build out a global settlement proposal, you are able to have a great negotiation process so you don't end up in divorce purgatory.
Jaime - 00:23:42:
Yeah, one of the things that I say to my clients all the time, unless we're talking about physical custody of your children, the rest of this is a business decision. It doesn't make sense to spend your good, hard-earned money fighting over the china, as you said, if it's worth $50. Or one of the cases I had, it was a multi-million dollar estate, and these two people were fighting, and I'm not exaggerating, over the vacuum cleaner. I got to the point where in the mediation, I offered to buy my client a new vacuum cleaner. I was like, okay, this is not really about the vacuum cleaner, I don't think, but we're able to divide the millions of dollars, and here we are fighting over this very trivial piece of personal property. So I think that's where, again, the financial analysis really does come into play.
Victoria - 00:24:32:
That's where it makes it so much easier because if you don't have a guide, you're going to get distracted by this low-hanging fruit because guaranteed your spouse is going to do something that's going to make you angry. It's going to push your buttons and it can be really toxic if you actually engage in those emotions. It will be hard not to. And that's where having the divorce impact analysis report that has a global settlement proposal comes into play because you just keep referring back to that. The number one thing that we list is your divorce goal and objective. Chances are your goal is to have a respectful divorce that respects or that is mindful of your relationships, but also your money. Too many people will allow their emotions to get carried away. And then they wonder why they have a $50,000 divorce that could have been done with $10,000. And they want to place the blame on everybody else's feet but their own. And when you're dealing with a client or potentially a partner like that, You have to know that that's who they are. And so you keep that in mind and then build out your team. So hopefully you can do mediation, but if not, you have a formal legal process that backs it up so there are consequences for their actions. Mediation is great, but it is informal. So if you are dealing with a high conflict partner, they might need to have consequences and you do not need to be the person that's providing them. So set your legal team up for success, allow them to do their job, and you really, need to focus on what you want your post-divorce life to look like. Get really clear with your vision. And then every time that your spouse triggers you, think about that and ask yourself, is this going to get me closer to my objective? Is this going to get me closer to my goal? How much is this going to cost me if I engage, right? That's a big question because initially, divorce is gonna cost, it's an investment, right? It's truly an investment in your future. And if you're not building a good relationship with your partner throughout this process, it might really be an expensive investment, but the more that you can work together and have an amicable divorce, you can keep the cost low. But if you are dealing with that high conflict partner, build out a team that will help you streamline things and always go back to that evidence-based report. Regardless if it's low conflict or high conflict, you need a document that will guide the negotiation process. Otherwise, I've seen it all the time, actually. A lot of attorneys will only go through one topic at a time. So they'll first talk about temporary support. And maybe we'll talk a little bit about the house. And then, oh, we have to now talk about child support. Or maybe there's something else. And that is just jointed. And you need to have an organized topic list so you can just go through the agenda items and really get this done in a streamlined fashion.
Jaime - 00:27:26:
Yeah, ideally, if you're going to get your case resolved, it's going to be a global settlement of all issues and not piecemeal because that doesn't really serve you, I don't think, just to have parts of it settled and the rest of it hanging out there. There are always exceptions, of course. And I like to help my clients get through their cases in the most cost effective. I'm not going to say the cheapest because you can't always do it the cheapest way, but the most cost effective. Like you mentioned, mediation is a great way to get family law cases settled, and it is successful in a lot of cases. But sometimes you need to put those court procedures in place first, and that's going to end up being more cost effective for you, not necessarily cheaper again. But you've got the judge there who can give your spouse deadlines and can make them produce documents and can hold them accountable when they don't do those things. So in the long run, you may be spending... More dollars being engaged in the court process, but it's actually more cost effective because you're making some progress and you're not stuck spinning your wheels when your spouse is not participating.
Victoria - 00:28:33:
Absolutely. And I think it's a big thing to highlight. You don't need to be the one trying to punish your spouse for not complying with the documents. Let the court system do that. Otherwise, you'll drive yourself insane. Especially when you're dealing with a high conflict partner, they're going to be needling you and using the delay as a tool to really burn you out of cash. So don't allow them to engage with that. Begin with an end in mind, know who you're dealing with and build your process out from that standpoint.
Jaime - 00:29:03:
Can you share some strategies for maintaining clarity throughout the divorce process and ensuring that both parties understand the financial implications of the proposed settlement?
Victoria - 00:29:17:
Well, it goes back to making sure each spouse feels financially comfortable having these conversations. If you are the financially savvy spouse, chances are you feel pretty confident. But if you are the least financially savvy spouse in the relationship, you absolutely need to be working with a certified divorce financial analyst. Get your education up to par so you can feel confident accepting proposals but having clarity really comes back to having a clear vision as to how you want your post divorce life to look like. For me, I knew I was going to take a lifestyle hit, but I was going to invest my money into my business and I was going to have a much steeper climb, but it was going to be possible to retain or to regain that marital standard of living. So a lot of indecision occurs when you don't feel comfortable with the cash flow changes, especially if you are the spouse that maybe was out of the workforce for a while and you haven't been paying your bills. It might be very overwhelming thinking about all of these tasks that you have to take on. And so if you can figure out what part of that is causing you consternation, you can then work with your analyst to build your skills up so you are confident to take that role on. But really understanding your budget. I can't talk enough about having a budget, but if you don't understand your post-divorce cost of living, it will be very hard for you to feel comfortable accepting a proposal, even if it might even pay you. But being realistic about things too. If you have to go back to work, develop a reasonable spousal support schedule so you are the one dictating the guidelines to decrease the payments. But the more that you can really determine how you want to be living your post-divorce life and having reasonable expectations. Because keep in mind, the divorce is not designed for anybody to get rich unless you guys are already fabulously wealthy. The divorce is designed to make sure that everybody has a financial landing pad that they could spring off of. And then through their own hard work and energy, regain their status of life that they choose to.
Jaime - 00:31:29:
Yeah, I mean, the reality is it costs more money to run two households than it does one. And in a lot of cases, there's just simply not enough money to go around to support both spouses at that lifestyle that they were accustomed to living. And I think, you know, spousal support is a great stopgap for folks to try to help get them back on their feet and out in the workforce if that's where they need to be. But you are absolutely correct. Nobody is getting rich from a divorce if they weren't already.
Victoria - 00:31:58:
Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I think sometimes I have clients that are so unaware of how much their life costs, right? Where they're disconnected from that process. And so... Once they do become aware, it becomes easier for them to take action. But when they're in the dark, all of these changes seem overwhelming because they don't know how they're going to live. But once you break it down in the budget blueprint, we go literally category by category. So you really are aware of all of the areas of your life that are going to either decrease or increase in cost in your post-divorce life. It becomes, even though it's a granular process, it becomes so much more manageable than in the real world.
Jaime - 00:32:41:
And sure, that must be very eye-opening for a lot of people to talk through the very minute categories of the budget that they may not otherwise think of.
Victoria - 00:32:50:
The cool thing about budgeting is it helps you identify the areas where you can actually cut back on if you need to decrease your standard of living. Most of us spend way too much money on eating out. At least I do. Um, but you know, making, you know, concerted changes will help you take control of this process. And so you have more control over the outcome as opposed to your spouse saying, I'm only going to pay you X, Y, Z, and then you not having the budget to understand if this would actually cover or create a shortfall in your post-abortion life.
Jaime - 00:33:24:
If you could only give one piece of advice to someone going through a divorce, what would it be?
Victoria - 00:33:30:
Maximize the marital estate valuation. Do not overlook assets. All assets are created equal. And also there's different tax implications associated with different assets. For example, whole life insurance. Well, when you are doing an analysis on it, you actually use the cash surrender value. Because if that was to be liquidated, that is the amount that would be extracted. But then you also have to factor in capital gains taxes on that. So it's not just whatever's on the account statement goes on the balance sheet. There is a complicated process that goes into all of these calculations from the marital home to all of your other assets in your retirement account. So the more that you can truly maximize that, it will set you up to have a very good and fair property division process.
Jaime - 00:34:23:
Well, that is great advice. Victoria, thank you so much for joining us.
Victoria - 00:34:27:
Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me this morning, Jamie.
Jaime - 00:34:35:
Thank you for listening. If you like this episode, be sure to follow the show wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss the next one. While the information presented is intended to provide you with general information to navigate divorce without destruction, this podcast is not legal advice. This information is specific to the law in North Carolina. If you have any questions before taking action, consult an attorney who is licensed in your state. If you are in need of assistance in North Carolina, you can contact us at Gaylor Hunt by visiting divorcestuff.com. I'm Jaime Davis, and I'll talk with you next time on A Year and a Day.