Maximum Lawyer

Watch the YouTube version of this episode HERE

What if the real differentiator in your law firm is not your service, your process, or even your results, but your story?


In this episode, Tyson Mutrux brings listeners into a mastermind moment from Arizona with Marne Pehrson and Travis Lee Howard. What started as a conversation about marketing turned into something much bigger: a framework for helping law firm owners connect who they are with what their clients need.


Travis walks through the first two buckets of his business framework: self and customer. He explains why most lawyers skip the deeper work, how vulnerability builds trust, and why the best marketing does not start with a generic ideal client avatar. It starts with understanding what makes you impossible to compete with.


This episode is about reverse engineering your message, identifying the emotional truth behind your clientโ€™s problem, and building a brand that feels real because it is.


Key Takeaways
  • Your story is not a distraction from your marketing. It may be the reason your marketing works.
  • Most law firm owners focus on documents, tactics, and features when they should focus on outcomes, trust, and connection.
  • Differentiation happens when you wrap the transaction in something only you can give.
  • Vulnerability, when done with confidence and clarity, makes people feel safe.
  • The right marketing message often comes from reverse engineering the right-fit client instead of forcing an avatar too early.

Highlights

01:00 The mastermind moment in Arizona that started it all
04:01 Travis introduces the Self โ†’ Customer โ†’ Machine โ†’ Team framework
08:47 If your manifesto doesn't give you goosebumps, start over
10:40 Walking through the framework live with Marne
14:19 The real problem in your market - fear, indifference, and generic plans
17:06 Why you should reverse engineer your ideal client, not assume one
17:53 The tidal pool strategy - own a small ecosystem before chasing the blue ocean
24:28 Why lawyers minimize their own story and why that is a mistake
27:07 Vulnerability is not weakness - it is the fastest way to build trust
34:05 The core differentiation sentence - and how to know when you've nailed it
35:01 Marne reads her positioning statement live and Travis grades it
41:39 Travis reads the CGH Law manifesto - the real-world version of all of this
49:00 What comes next - turning 30 pages of clarity into something executable
55:00 Closing thoughts and where to connect with Travis and Marne


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Maximum Lawyer helps law firm owners build businesses, not jobs.

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Creators and Guests

Host
Tyson Mutrux
Tyson is the founder of Mutrux Firm Injury Lawyers and the co-founder of Maximum Lawyer.

What is Maximum Lawyer?

Maximum Lawyer is the podcast for law firm owners who want to scale with intention and build a business that works for their life.

Hosted by Tyson Mutrux, each weekly episode features candid conversations with law firm owners, business experts, and industry leaders sharing real strategies and lessons learned in the trenches.

If you're ready to grow your firm with less stress and more support, this is your next must listen. Subscribe today.

Tyson Mutrux (00:00.83)
Welcome back to another episode of Maximum Lawyer. I've got two amazing guests. They're both members of the association. We've got Marnie and Travis. And so we're going to give you a sort of a window into a mastermind that we had. It was out in Arizona and it was, we had a really magical moment. We're going to kind of take you there in the circle. were sitting outside. The weather was beautiful. Marnie was talking and then Travis sort of a light bulb moment went off and

Then we're going to introduce this framework that Travis has built. He's, built it through notion. And, uh, I was kind of making some notes. We were talking about beforehand and it's a way of really connecting the self to the customer with a strategy embedded. That's the way that Travis puts it. And so I'll let him introduce that a little bit, but Marty, will you take us to that conversation? What was going on? What was going through your mind at that time? And then we'll, then we'll toss it to Travis to

sort of to talk about that light bulb moment.

Marne Pehrson (01:00.718)
Yeah, I had intended on just talking about marketing and Legion, but I feel like by the time it was my turn, else, like several other people had already brought that up. So I just didn't want to rehash, like beat a dead horse. And so I figured everyone else in this room has already been where I have and it's gotten to where I want to go. And so I just figured like.

kind of sharing where I started and where I was and some of my goals that related to my family and kids. And just went kind of skyrocketed from there.

Tyson Mutrux (01:31.708)
Yeah. then so what, Travis, what did you hear and what did you see and why did the light bulb go off? Because it was like a, it was a really magical moment in my opinion. It was just a really cool moment.

Travis Lee Howard (01:42.345)
Yeah, I agree. think prior to the moment, Marnie, the business woman and attorney and professional was sharing from a place of what she has accomplished and what she hoped to accomplish. But it was coming through a lens of professionalism of this is a role that I play and this is a thing that I do at my business. And

Then she started talking about her kids and the little girl Marnie showed up, the grown woman, powerful superwoman showed up, the protector showed up, and I just got goosebumps on my arms talking about it because I remember it. Like, I saw her.

Marne Pehrson (02:16.462)
you

Travis Lee Howard (02:27.113)
And I was like, shit, here we go. Sorry. Don't mean to cuss, but like that's where I, I was like, yes, this, this is what I want to hire. This is who I want to refer to. This is what I want more of in my life. And I was like, this, you can't, please don't lose this, right? For all of us, please don't lose this.

Tyson Mutrux (02:47.208)
Yeah, so Marnie, you were, it's interesting, I guess, at a certain point, it almost felt like you were getting a little bit uncomfortable and you had to kind of step outside of your comfort zone a little bit. Like, can you talk a little bit about that part of it?

Marne Pehrson (03:02.36)
I think some of it is it's hard to be that vulnerable, but also trying to find the balance between being professional and being personal. There's a hindrance, but then a lot of my story also, it's my kid's story too. And so finding the balance of what can I share that doesn't encroach on their privacy. And in small setting, it's really easy, but.

Tyson Mutrux (03:25.608)
Yeah. I think that, yeah. Well, I think a lot of attorneys struggle with that. Where like they, like they talk about, well, I don't want to be on video cause I don't want to do this and I want to do that. And they're afraid to really kind of expose themselves to the world. And I think that that's where Travis, I think he identified that in you and like, no, get your story out there. This is wonderful. And I think that's Travis. We're like, you, you were like, Hey, I've got this thing that I created. Like, let's use this to our advantage. So.

Marne Pehrson (03:45.838)
You

Tyson Mutrux (03:54.398)
When you talk about what this thing is that we're talking about this framework, that, then we're gonna kind of walk through that, right? We're gonna walk through that with Marnie, is that how it's gonna work?

Travis Lee Howard (04:01.953)
Yeah, yeah, we'll go through. She's put in some work to it and then we'll ask her to, you know, clarify some things and then hopefully we can end up by explaining how to bring this into fruition in the real world.

So how do you, where would you like me to start? How do you want to just explain the general?

Tyson Mutrux (04:22.502)
Yeah. again, explain the general framework of it. Cause I know we were talking before and I had to stop you. like, we got to the record button on because there's your, your, it's such great content. So give the, give the general framework of what we're talking about.

Travis Lee Howard (04:36.329)
Yeah, totally.

You know, in my world, you've got the four buckets, self customer, machine, and team build your business in that order. And I think what we're discussing today are the two front end buckets, self and customer. And this is relationship. And it's something that you want to be in. And it's not something that you can have or possess. And I encourage anyone listening to really think about that for a moment. I can be in relationship with someone.

And that takes two people and it is give and receive. And it is a constant loop, like electricity and you know, the universe. And in that, in that framework, self is about what you have to give and whether you are the gift or whether you are the gift giver. And that helps you frame the role that you're playing in relationship with, with somebody else. And you might have to do both, but it's really,

important that you understand where you traditionally sit. Now inside of that and figuring out who you are, can be touchy feely, but you need to have a strategy if you're going to make it a business. And that is where I was sharing that I, I'm a big fan of Alex H. Smith. He's over in the UK. He does strategy work for, for big businesses. He gave out a free workbook on how to come to a core strategy statement.

I took that workbook, changed it a little bit for, how I would use some of the language and

Travis Lee Howard (06:14.869)
Tackled that with some of the messaging pieces from, marketing companies that I've used and built over the years on how do you actually bring that strategy out to life with your personal story of self? You know, the core strategy could be the business is going to do this. doesn't have to have any soul in it, but the closer you get it to who you are, the more powerful and unique that it is. And at the end of the day, we're all trying to build a business that nobody else can compete with. And I think that's what I heard, you know, that day.

in Arizona from Marnie is like this is 100 % one person. This is a life and a soul and an experience. And so that's the model. How do we simplify? How do we get a sentence and a statement and a sentiment that we can give to a marketing team or my staff or communicate directly with potential clients?

Tyson Mutrux (07:10.878)
So Marty, you've gone through this. I guess what's the experience been like going through it?

Marne Pehrson (07:19.106)
of just really self-reflective, like, and trying to find, I don't know, you just really have to think about it, more personal stuff than you anticipate when you're answering some of, kind of going through the framework and answering the questions, but then also the business side too.

And some of the questions were hard, actually. They took me a while to kind of think about. And the other ones, you kind of more expected your goals or your values, and you've already kind of got them in your head, even if you haven't written them down anywhere else. But yeah, just a lot of reflection and thinking about the process, about the business, about marketing, about your message.

like a million things. It's like every single business book that you've read, but combined into one.

Tyson Mutrux (08:12.744)
What I find interesting is that most law firm owners have never thought about some of this stuff. I wonder, some of the questions that you went through, had you ever considered it before in your entire life? Are these like the first time you've ever, the first time you've ever really thought about any of these things?

Marne Pehrson (08:29.388)
I think there was a little bit of both. There were some that I hadn't thought of. There was one on the company Manifesto that I was like, and I'm still kind of stewing on that. I put something in there just to have something for today, but I also was like, I don't like what's in there. I want it to be better and more soulful than what I've got.

Travis Lee Howard (08:47.243)
Good.

That's a sign that you're doing it right. Right. When, when you read your own words and you're like, this is directional, but like, I don't want to sing this from the mountain tops. Like when you say your manifesto, if you're the founder of a business and you read your manifesto and you don't get goosebumps, if your voice doesn't go up a few octaves, like if you aren't ready to charge on the field at the end of it, you haven't written anything worth writing.

Marne Pehrson (09:17.518)
Like I almost deleted it this morning. I was like, I don't know.

Travis Lee Howard (09:20.833)
That's okay, we'll get there. Yeah, me too.

Tyson Mutrux (09:22.43)
Well, I'm glad you didn't. I'm glad you didn't. so Travis actually, me ask you this before we get into the, start going through the questions, everything. If someone says like, Hey, you know, I thought about deleting this or I want to delete this, or I did delete this. Like, what is your advice? Should people keep that stuff in there as like a sort of like a working copy or like, what is your whole thought process on deleting and adding and all that?

Travis Lee Howard (09:48.137)
Yeah, no, I'm a big fan of strike through, right? Like I like strike through. This was where I was and then this is where I am. And there's no judgment on if where I am is good enough for where I wanna go.

You're you're reminding yourself where you were. That's what I like about the the strike through now when you when you get to the end and you feel good, you know, make a whole copy of the thing and then get rid of the fluff and the extras and just get down to the the core bones that you know are your now. but yeah, no, I, I like it. It's a reminder of

advancement, you know, of going. It's a big reason why I leave the old, like when I go to the gym, I leave those marks on the calendar like I did that, right? It's just a small reminder.

Tyson Mutrux (10:40.99)
Love it. right. So walk us through it. Let's begin. How does this framework begin? I am very curious, what's the first question? That is like the, cause I want to know how it starts.

Travis Lee Howard (10:51.679)
Yeah. The very first question is super, super simple. And again, this is what I love about Alex and that is what is the business, right? And so you, you think you know it, but he asks a prompt that I left in here that I think is really important. I don't know if you actually read it or not Marnie, but the, the prompt is how would you explain your company to somebody who doesn't care?

Like just think about that juxtaposition our brains get so Grand Canyon right that water has like we just that's how we work and all's it takes is a little ruffle of a feather and the whole picture changes like wait a minute Not to somebody I'm trying to get to pay me not to somebody I'm trying to somebody who doesn't care How would I explain my business? And you know so Marnie in this instance is you know it's a solo practitioner law firm. That's the

That's the simple, like someone doesn't, nobody cares what you do, Marnie, what would you tell them? Right? I'm a solo practitioner lawyer. Great. You know, like that's as simple as it gets. What category is the next question? it playing in Will's trust in estate planning? Right? That's a, that's a good category. Now you're separating.

what you're doing. I'm a solo practitioner lawyer from where I'm doing it. Right. I'm a football player. Are you playing on AstroTurf? Are you playing indoors? Are you playing on snow and the grass? Like the field is different than the sport. And I think those two things usually get lumped together in one. And so right off the beginning, I was like, Alex is a brilliant person. This is useful. It challenges the way that you think about the base level of what you're doing.

then the next piece and I think this is where you really get into

Travis Lee Howard (12:43.881)
If you are brand new doing something, it's going to be very hard for you to answer the next question, which is as a first time founder, this puts you back into research mode and makes you much more likely to be successful in your first venture for Marnie, who's an expert. She was able to go through this next question and express it, but it shows you your understanding of that field. And that is what's the current situation that needs to be overcome by the strategy you're

to develop, right? So you've got who you are as a business and you've got what category are you in. So what is that current situation? And I think this was an interesting one. What did you say, Marty?

Marne Pehrson (13:26.862)
put a lot of stuff there. I put a lot of stuff there. yeah, you know, the good and the bad.

Travis Lee Howard (13:32.393)
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's totally right. And so what are you seeing that you want to be different? Right. And if the answer comes up, nothing understand that what you're doing is just copying. And if that's what you're doing, there's only one place you can compete price.

That's it. Like that's what you're left to. And that's your strategy. I will produce marginally similar results to whoever is competing with me, but I shall promise to be cheaper. I mean, does anyone want to sign up for that job? Sounds terrible. but that's like, it's so core simple. That's where we're at. So for Marnie, you know,

Marne Pehrson (14:10.67)
You

Travis Lee Howard (14:19.921)
Most people know they need to do something, but they think estate planning is for someone else beside them. Somebody with more money. I'm not rich enough yet. they put it off because they're confused, overwhelming or not urgent, right? They don't know where to think about it. They don't want to think about, death. So that first piece, what needs to be overcome fear and indifference, right? Like that's what I read in there. Like people are indifferent and people are afraid. Well, those are human nature.

I mean, that's all day every day. That's my high school student upstairs, you know, not preparing for the exam because it's going to be tough. Like we've been doing that since we were kids. When people do something, they often use generic online forms. So if they do overcome their fear or indifference, they are, they're not sure how to, they might be embarrassed or they might not want to share with another human. It's private.

And this is where I think money, you see, I'm already making links in my head between you sharing your story and what they're feeling at the very beginning of their journey. But this is my private information. How do I share this with somebody? Right? Like imagine them finding you through marketing with you sharing something private about yourself. Like this is like, I'm calling you right away. There's no one that can even compete with that.

So as a result, a lot of plans aren't done well. Law firms have a tendency to focus on documents. They don't guide them. So what did we get in there? What's the current situation? People are having human fears at the beginning that are keeping them from taking action or when they take action, not getting a comprehensive answer that's actually going to take care of them when they need it. That's the problem in the category.

And that's what Marnie's setting out to resolve. Just in those quick areas, it reframes what you're doing, right? You are not, the transaction is the documents they get.

Travis Lee Howard (16:21.685)
but that's not what Marnie's needed to do. You've got that in there. Heck, AI in some avenues might be able to provide that in the future. That's the transaction. Now, inside of your gift bundle, what you're promising to give to a client, you're gonna take yourself and you're gonna wrap that transaction in yourself.

And that is something that nobody on earth can provide. Nobody can compete with that. Not everybody might want that, Marnie. There's difference, right? Not everybody might want that, but the people that are potentially interested in that can't find that anywhere else on earth. You're the only one that can give yourself, right? You're the only one that can give your gift. So that's how that works.

Tyson Mutrux (17:06.302)
So real quick, Travis, before you keep going, a couple of things. It's interesting to me because it sounds like what you're looking for is like, OK, here's how you're differentiating your firm from other firms. That's one part of this, too. What I also find kind of interesting is that you're reverse engineering who your ideal client might be as opposed to like usually what people say is like, start with like, who's your ideal client? I think if you did that in this situation, you wouldn't get the right answer because

what you can take, what you can extract from what Marnie put in there is she can figure out who her ideal client is from that, as opposed to saying, my ideal client is X, and then try to retrofit it for that. It's almost in reverse order of what most people talk about, which I think I find that kind interesting.

Travis Lee Howard (17:53.555)
Yeah, I did a speech for YPO. They were doing a cohort of people and I had a friend that sits on that governing body and she got me in there it was on GoToMarket. And these are like brilliant YPO people with these like ridiculously smart business plans, way better than anything I've ever built in my life. And I was a little intimidated at first to go into that environment and I just thought I'm like,

I have to give what I have, you know, and what makes me unique. And that is looking at things from the other side and then, you know, trying to extrapolate. And here's, here's what is so interesting, Tyson, is that we are taught to, to look for TAM, right? Total addressable market. We are taught to look for how big we could potentially make it. All of the potential clients, this, this core client that you're talking about, this avatar. And yes, at some point, if you're

makes it all the way to the height of what it might be, you'll be serving all of those people. You'll be serving lots of people, Marnie, that are just purchasing the transaction, right? And that's okay, because they're gonna get the same value anyways. However...

at the beginning of that process and how all of those future customers find you is through referrals and word of mouth and brand equity that you have built. And those original customers, the customers that Tyson is talking about reverse engineering this ideal customer, this is a very small microcosm. And the way that I explain this is,

Most people talk about the blue ocean. Go to this big blue ocean, find your opportunity. This is your ideal customer. All of these people, it's untapped. You have this wonderful space. I say what happens before the blue ocean? It's the tidal pool, the small.

Travis Lee Howard (19:54.825)
tiny tidal pool. And when you look inside one of those tiny tidal pools, you see so much life, life that never goes anywhere else that is uniquely tied to each other. They know this, this ecosystem, like the back of their hand, they are uniquely defined for it. They trust and count on each other in this small tidal pool. If you make an impact in that tidal pool, everyone will know your name. Everyone.

And the, the idea that, or the example that I give here is our X bars. They are ubiquitous at this point. They are the number one snack bar health snack bar in the world. At least as of like a year ago, when I was researching my other talk, their title pool was CrossFit.

There, look at who eats them now. Everyone out under the sun eats these things. My kids take them for lunch, but they stuck with CrossFit for years. They put their bars in every CrossFit gym.

Marne Pehrson (20:55.779)
Thanks

Travis Lee Howard (21:03.167)
They knew they were good for other people that were, but they didn't care. They made it ubiquitous in CrossFit. And at any point that somebody from the CrossFit world ventured out of that title pool to go get resources or to go visit somebody in the blue ocean. And they came back and food or exercise or health came up. Guess what brand came out of that person's mouth, right?

That's how RX bars went. They didn't go and just start throwing them on whole foods, shelves, and all that. That was long after they were the, the, the number one brand inside of that title pool. And I think that's so instructive for find the core audience, the person who is going to receive the gift personally, because that's somebody that will share it with someone else. And this is, there's two hands, one, so you're, you're doing a strategy.

you just to get more customers. Well, yeah, I'm in business. But two, I actually gave it to somebody and if that person shares my gift with someone else, that's actually good. And I have to remind my intake team all the time when they're like, I don't want to be I don't want to be so salesy on that intake call. I'm like, hold on, hold on. Are you being salesy?

Or do you actually believe that if they hang up and call another law firm, they'll get better or worse outcomes or service? And they're like, well, nobody will care about them as much as we do. said, then you're not selling them anything. You're right. Like this, it, there's two sides to it. You connect it to yourself in a way that's authentic and real, and you get to stay on the side that feels warm and cozy.

And that's what I want for you, that's what I want for my clients, that's what I always have wanted for my team and for myself.

Tyson Mutrux (22:59.752)
So Marnie, we've covered a lot in a little bit of a, like it's interesting. There's a lot in a little bit of just a few questions, but I wonder in those first few questions, if like, are some things that you learned about yourself and your firm?

Marne Pehrson (23:17.646)
I think like you said, it's kind of reverse engineering because especially with my area of law, like I can't help everyone. Like I need to help everyone. Everyone needs my help. But that's not necessarily going to be who's the right fit. And that reverse engineering has kind of clarified a little bit more like who the right fit is going to be for me as we've gone through this and who I need.

to try and market to a little bit better, to actually reach them and communicate with them. But I think one of the biggest things for me was just kind of the shock of, I don't know, my own personal story. Because to me, it's just me. I'm just me. I'm not any better or any different than anyone else.

And so, and of course your friends always encourage you, but being in a room of people that don't know you and haven't known you for a long time, still tell you, no, you need to use this information, you need to share this information and use it to reach other people and to connect with your clients, that's probably been the biggest eye opener, I think, for me.

Tyson Mutrux (24:28.968)
Why was it so shocking? You used the word shocking, so I'm curious. Like, why was it so shocking to you?

Marne Pehrson (24:35.95)
I don't know, because for me, I'm just like, well, this is my life. This is just me. This is our kids. This is just normal to us. And then most of my really close friends, I've known for a long time. So they're just like, yeah, you're so cool. It's so inspiring. And I'm like, yeah, whatever. You're just saying that because you're my friend.

Tyson Mutrux (24:58.462)
It's funny, a lot of people think that same way. It's interesting. So I may have told you this story. can't remember if I did, but we were, Jim and I were at Infusionsoft, their conference, ICON, years ago. was like 2017 or something like that. And Marcus Lamona spoke and he said, he called the people at ICON, the staff, and said, I want you to close the doors and no one leaves. And he said,

If you want to leave, you can, need to leave right now. Cause I'm going to call on a couple of people and you need to share a very personal story, a story that you had never told anyone else. Um, and I will call on volunteers first, but if no one volunteers, I'm going to call on you and I will expect an answer. So you had a couple of people leave, but they closed the doors. And so I'll be honest with you. I was kind of sweating. was like, what?

I hope they don't call on me. Luckily, I didn't get called on, but they called on a couple people and this, the first person that stood up, he talked about how he was afraid that his mom never loved him. And it was like this long story. then Marcus Lamonis had told his own personal story. So like they called like three or four people and like they told really personal stories. And it was interesting because he said, okay, now that you've heard all these stories, do you like these people more or do you like these people less?

And everyone was clearly like them more like they like they like them way more and so we worry about these stories that we're afraid to tell people because we're afraid that people will like us less and the reality is is that the more you are vulnerable the more people will like you and they'll become your raving fans and they'll become your title title pool where you go out and they're like they're they're going out and they're kind of preaching your story. So I do think it's kind of interesting how we sort of minimize our stories was kind of what.

It's almost like what you're saying, Marty, is like, you're minimize your own story when in reality, your story is very valuable to a lot of people. So I think that I find that part very interesting how internally we will minimize it, but externally, it's actually a very powerful thing.

Tyson Mutrux (27:07.32)
yeah.

Travis Lee Howard (27:07.473)
It is. And Tyson, this goes back to the beginning of our humanity of our, mean, besides finding food, right? We have, and shelter, we've got the safety and the safety is in tribes and connecting, right? And so when we meet another human, we immediately judge, do I need to protect myself?

or does being with this person make me safer? And one of my favorite people on earth is Brene Brown, and she's just taught us so much about how...

Being vulnerable actually is such a sign of courage and confidence. And I want you to think about when you're meeting somebody in the wild and they are not oversharing, but they are demonstrating vulnerability in the wild, you are receiving signals that this person is safe and confident.

and you are naturally wanting to be in their tribe. And so I think a lot of times we were potentially raised around, whether it in school or families or whatever, somebody that is a blowhard or very egoic. So we see, if you're sharing, it's all about you and this feels yuck, right? So we, well, then the answer is don't share. That's wrong, but that's a...

reasonable response or somebody that is whining and complaining. And so at an early age, we got so much of, this is a personal story or that's personal information, but it's coming from a negative side of whining and complaining. And that does not feel safe because that feels like somebody that's out of control, that's not confident and is seeking.

Travis Lee Howard (28:56.577)
and that is like, I don't, and so both of those bookends go away in the middle with I'm healthy.

and I know myself and this is my truth and it's a part of me but it doesn't define me fully that part the bernay part that's the power right and so it's it's understanding that the other two sides exist but that there's a really healthy powerful middle that you are totally allowed to stand in

Marne Pehrson (29:31.214)
I think going through this notion and figuring out how to find that middle ground for business and put it in your business was really helpful.

Travis Lee Howard (29:42.827)
Well, one of the things that I wasn't sure of when we were in Arizona, but that kind of came out going through this and even just talking today is that when we talked about the problem with the current, know, what is the status quo that needs to be overcome? And a piece of that was...

Marne Pehrson (29:45.24)
Thanks

Travis Lee Howard (30:04.255)
potential clients not sharing everything. not act, even if they get over the first hurdle of taking action, if they don't give a hundred percent of their story and really do the work, they might end up with something that only protects them halfway or 75 % of the way. And when they, know, when their family needs it the most, they might've let them down by trying to hold back and protect. And so if that's part of what needs to over,

come, you're sitting here with a personal story and saying, do I really want to be vulnerable? You're demonstrating with vulnerability exactly what they need to do. So they're able to mirror you in some regard. They're connecting to you from that front end. So I think it's not only is any authenticity going to help through this, but your particular authenticity about

the topic, right? Family, your kids, know, struggles, things that you see in the future, that is exactly what they're going through. And I think mirroring those two is gonna be really, really important. And so I think real quick, Tyson, I'm gonna read through a couple of things so the audience can understand like what Marnie could have put out there. You know, if somebody just goes online and does something through, you know, whatever.

law program for their will or something. You know, they're given a false sense of security because the family won't find out until it's too late that something's missing, know, unintended consequences, then it's expensive to fix, even if it is fixable. And then, you know, what have you, what's a secret that you realize that, you know,

only you know that's changed everything. And, you know, she's like the real value isn't in the documents. It's extracting the information out of the client, right? Like that's, that's the secret, right? How do I get all of the information? The more information I get, the better my services and gift bundle will be, the better the results will be for the, for the client. So what is that, you know, secret enable you to do? We just kind of hit that. can actually get through conversations and, and hypotheticals.

Travis Lee Howard (32:23.043)
And then what's the ultimate, you know, benefit if the worst case scenario happens, you know, they have a best case situation coming out of it. The worst thing happened, but we are the best prepared possible for this thing. That's, that's what they're, what they're going for. So this is the interesting part. You go through them and that we just went through that quickly, but that process and Marnie knows that can take a day. That could take two days. That could take a week of going back and rewriting and

going through that process. If I'm working with somebody individually, the first half of this whole document takes me usually about four hours of prying on somebody, right? Of like, go, no, no, keep telling me, keep telling me. And like really hardcore, a, know, like a trainer almost. I'm picturing like Rocky in the gym. So, but the next piece is then how, so we know these things.

So now how do we have to change? Right? And so for Marnie, what is, what, what, how does she have to change? We were wrong about focusing on documents instead of outcomes. We were wrong about assuming clients would follow through without hand holding.

Right? That they had the internal motivation so they would just do the thing. we were wrong about, you know, focusing on education. It's important, but the outcome once again was what was going to be motivating for this, for this individual. I like this, sentence, you know, if you confuse, lose. we were wrong about not using personal story and personality to market and build the brand of Marnie.

Tyson Mutrux (33:48.67)
you

Travis Lee Howard (34:05.457)
So those are the, that's how we have to change. And now that we know how we have to change, we start all the way back at the beginning. And again, you know, Alex and his infinite wisdom broke this down into a really simple sentence. We are the only blank who offer blank by blank. That's it. And here's, here's the key. And I really liked this one is, you know,

that this is right when you can hand it to your competitor and they go, yeah, they are the only one. Okay. Like if you hand it to the 10 other attorneys that are doing your same thing and they're like, no, I do that. Like, you know, you've written something generic, right? And it's very hard to get to that point. So this is, do you have it up in front of you, Marnie? Do you want to read it do you want me to read what you're

Marne Pehrson (35:01.538)
I have it up in front of me, but I don't care. We are the only estate planning law firm who offer thoughtful estate plans for Utah families that work in real life and that are built around their actual family dynamics and pain points by helping families make good decisions about the people, relationships, assets, and real life scenarios that their plan and individual documents in their plan need to handle.

Travis Lee Howard (35:04.363)
Go for it, you read it, this is yours.

Travis Lee Howard (35:29.195)
So that's a big one. It's a big sentence. I would want to whittle all of that down now. Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux (35:33.502)
I was going to you to grade it. I was going to ask you, have you grade that? A to F. Well, how do you, how do you grade it?

Marne Pehrson (35:35.874)
you

Travis Lee Howard (35:39.699)
I think this is a B minus.

Marne Pehrson (35:41.453)
you

Tyson Mutrux (35:41.485)
Okay, now how do we get it to an A?

Travis Lee Howard (35:44.211)
Read your sexually short hand real quick.

Marne Pehrson (35:48.45)
we do not just generate document, we do not just generate and draft documents. We help families make a real plan and good decisions about the people, relationships, assets, and real life scenarios that those documents need to handle.

Travis Lee Howard (36:01.835)
So this is closer. I think we're pushing on a B plus at that moment. I would, if I was looking back through this, we are the only estate planning law firm.

who offer, and so we've got Utah families in there, I think that that helps, but I don't know because you could offer it somewhere else if you wanted, if you got a bar or whatever, that work in real life that are built around actual family dynamics and pain points. I would if the client is the hero in your relationship.

which they ought to be right. The client is the hero because when they are done, their gold star, their metal, whatever they're, this document is protection for their family. They went through a gauntlet and they came out with protection for their family they're providing. So they're the hero. You're the guide. I would get into the who offer. I would have something in here about the process of guiding them.

Okay. Because you, that's what you're going to, their experience with you is going to be that guiding of pulling out their personal story of getting the real information. So you are going to be the only the estate planning law firm working with Utah families that has a proven process.

or whatever this guide, something around that language of being the guide, by ensuring we get to, and this is where you get into the relationships, the real life scenarios, I would talk about extracting the experiences. They're wise, they're fears, right? Like this is the by making it safe to be vulnerable.

Travis Lee Howard (37:59.541)
That's what you're doing. You are walking them through, you are guiding them through a process by allowing them to safely be vulnerable. That's what you, that's the seat. You know, if they show up and tell you their 100 % truth, what they're afraid of and what they desperately want to make sure happens that you can take care of them. And anything less than that means they get a worse solution.

So I would be focusing, that's what you do, right? You, and maybe by demonstrating the power of vulnerability. That's your secret. How do you do that? Well, I demonstrate how that works and what that looks like because I have built this amazing law firm that helps people by owning my own fears and my own vulnerability, right?

There's this, this marriage there and how that works into a sentence, you know, we can work on it over time. We've got it recorded here, but that's the direction where I would go. That puts us into a quality. And I feel like if you handed that to another Willson, the state's attorney in Utah, they'd be like, yeah, I don't do that. That's definitely Marnie's brand, right? Like they'd be like, yeah, that's Marnie. And then

Marne Pehrson (39:20.078)
Yeah.

Travis Lee Howard (39:23.967)
You know, when somebody is out there seeking and searching and typing about something, you know, or having a combo with GPT, because now it's not just a dry little Google search. Now it's 27 questions deep and perplexity. And all of a sudden it's like, you know what? I've got someone to suggest to you. You might want to look up this Marnie person. She sounds right up your alley.

Tyson Mutrux (39:46.536)
So I think it's great, Travis. We're going to wrap on this because Marnie, you walk us through or not walk us through, will you tell us what was the section or the question that you think kind of struck a chord with you the most or maybe had the biggest impact on you? then give us that and then we'll wrap. then Travis, if you want to talk about how people can get this, if you want to make it available to people, you can talk about that too. But Marnie, what is the I guess what is the

the part that struck the biggest chord with you or really had the biggest impact on you.

Marne Pehrson (40:20.75)
Marne Pehrson (40:24.706)
I mean, I downloaded a copy of it just on a PDF, and it's like almost 30 pages by the time. But again, I think it would go back to probably just how much of my story and then also just getting to the secret, like actually spending some time thinking about like...

Tyson Mutrux (40:31.261)
Whoa.

Marne Pehrson (40:47.858)
not just what is the problem in my market, but what is the actual solution and how does that tie with my story and my truth. And I'm still trying to kind of cross that bridge and figure out how to do that. But just the idea and concept that it's so important to do that and to tie those together, to really be successful and to help the most people, it has been a new kind of concept and idea.

Tyson Mutrux (41:16.229)
good.

Travis Lee Howard (41:16.383)
And Tyson, think what's important here is that I'm going to still work with Marnie and we're going to go through the communication of the language and figure out how to 30 pages is great. Now she has the context. Now we're going to go back to law school and we're going to turn that into a three page outline so that we can apply it to any exam and any fact pattern, right? Like that's what we're going to do next. But I want to really quickly read.

Marne Pehrson (41:30.51)
Yeah.

Travis Lee Howard (41:39.265)
And if anyone wants to find me, it's Travis Lee Howard on LinkedIn. can connect with me, whatever. But I want to read for you because I did the same thing for CGH law firm. And now if you go and look at any of our marketing, we have billboards up with it's more than money, you know, instead of a name and a check in a rec, get a check. We're on the side of it's more than money. We've got our dog, Kevin's dog as this giant Newfoundland as our, our mascot.

how is that coming out and how and showing our weird all over Facebook and meta ads and stuff. We got there through that same process and then we wrote the manifesto that you did, Marnie, and I'm just gonna read the manifesto real quick to then you can understand how to apply all these lessons that came out because this manifesto is what we give to the marketing agency, right? This is the energy. So we write,

The CGH manifesto, we believe it's more than money. We believe in justice, the ancient authentic kind, the kind we read about in books as kids, the kind our teachers taught us about, the kind that is the foundation of entire system to protect honest people, the kind that is slipping away.

We believe in fighting the sacred, virtuous kind, the kind we saw in our favorite movies as kids, the kind our heroes taught us about, the kind that repels greed and oppression and speaks truth to power, the kind that is slipping away. We believe in love, the whole body messy, vulnerable kind, the kind our parents hoped for us as kids, the kind our own children teach us about, the kind that comes from looking deep into our greatest losses and learning.

The kind that is slipping away. We believe in accountability, the wholly, deeply personal kind, the kind people want yet always avoid. The kind campaigns promise and always forget. The kind that we apply to ourselves even more strictly than to our villains. The kind that is slipping away. We believe these things are worth saving, which is why we started our firm. To stand up for ourselves, our neighbors, and our community. To change how the world views personal injury law.

Travis Lee Howard (43:52.657)
be the things everyone thinks have gone missing from this world. We believe we know how. One person at a time. Today, you, us, together. That's our manifesto. So twice in there, I had emotional reactions reading it because that came out of me and my partners. And it was real.

When I give that to somebody to make a TV commercial and I'm like, it better comply with this. There's only so far they can go. now that message is coming out. Now that message goes onto our website. It goes to our staff. Kevin starts our quarterly or annual meetings by reading that manifesto, right? So it has core values embedded. It has the language and so on and so forth.

That's where the application begins, right? Versus just the knowledge and intellectual exercise.

Tyson Mutrux (44:51.102)
All right, I think it's a great place to wrap it. Here's what I want to see. I want to see a video of each of your teammates reading that. So line by line as a video or a commercial, that would be a

Travis Lee Howard (45:02.773)
That's a really good idea.

Tyson Mutrux (45:02.814)
Getting it down to 30 seconds is going to be the challenge. That's going be the big challenge. But excellent job. Marnie, I can't wait to hear your manifesto. Thank you for being vulnerable and sharing some of your story, Marnie. Really appreciate it. Although Travis and I talk the majority of the because he and I are both talkers. But thank you for sharing. And Travis, thanks for sharing this, too. This is great. Really good stuff. I think people are going to get a lot out of it. So make sure you reach out to Travis if you have any questions. He is on LinkedIn, Travis Lee Howard.

Marnie, how do people get in touch with you if they want to reach out to you and ask you questions?

Marne Pehrson (45:36.91)
I'm on LinkedIn too. This is Marnie Pearson.

Tyson Mutrux (45:39.688)
Very good. And it's P-E-H-R-S-O-N. So it's a little different. Actually, it's very different than most Pearson's. So excellent. Thank you both. Really appreciate it. Loved it. It's great stuff.

Travis Lee Howard (45:50.315)
Thank you, Tyson. And for anyone watching this, you are not a part of the association or heading to any of the summits that Tyson does, you ought to think about it. He's obviously gifted as a facilitator and the people that he gets to show up are awesome. And Marnie's now a personal friend of mine. So well worth it,

Tyson Mutrux (46:11.646)
Thanks Travis, appreciate it.

Marne Pehrson (46:12.205)
Thank you guys.