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The Psychedelic Psychologist is a conversational-style podcast hosted by Dr. Ryan Westrum with clients and guests who use talk therapy to integrate Psychedelic experiences for healing and personal transformation. Tune in to hear people’s experiences, breakthroughs and stories of healing addiction, depression, and trauma through Psychedelics. Dr. Ryan Westrum gracefully and empathetically narrates real therapy sessions with people in their most vulnerable and transformational moments.
I would like to invite you
to take a moment within your
day to simply take pause
to offer the sense of perspective
and to look at an opportunity
to ground into peace.
Breathing in and breathing out,
allowing you once again to take pause,
breathing in and breathing
out, watching the perspective
coming alive in your system
and recognizing the body
reacting to the quiet,
listening to the emotional heart.
Dance with the quiet
and allow your thoughts
to simply be witnessed.
Breathing in and breathing out,
looking for the breath to invite peace,
perspective, and gratitude for this pause.
And as you land and find space, allowing
the act of imagination, The expanded
state of this meditation to take hold,
breathe in and breathe out
and finding your grounding
with gentle eyes open,
softening the body
and awakening the system.
Hi, it's Ryan Welcome to your weekly dose
of the psychedelic psychologist where I
invite my guests to share stories about
their psychedelic experiences We cover
a variety of topics from overcoming
addiction and severe depression to
finding wholeness and spiritual emergence.
Today I am profusely humbled,
extremely excited, somewhat
giddy to be with Kristen.
Kristen, how are you coming in?
Actually, beautifully.
It's a gentle rain here and it
feels just really grounding.
I love everything about that.
Now, knowing that we're walking into a
conversation about psychedelic integration
and all things psychedelic, what does the
word psychedelics or medicine mean to you?
Well, there's so much depth there.
It means for me a deep respective healing
that I've been able to experience.
It means There's, there's a joy that
comes to my heart when I think of it and
also a deep reverence with wanting to,
to honor it for, the bigness that it is.
Yeah, when you say the bigness, I can
feel that where sometimes it's almost the
invitations that are still awaiting us
and the things that we have processed.
How did you find the medicine
or did the medicine find you?
Often there is a little dance.
Can you tell me about the dance that
you see with this intentionality
of using these substances?
Yeah, I first came to it in a time of my
life where I was bursting at the seams.
I was hiding from everybody in a life
that I was in a protective, protective
shell and I was ready to burst out.
And, growing up as I did with the The D.
A.
R.
E.
program and things, it seemed like the
most edgy thing I could possibly do.
And I had people around me that I
really admired that were breaking
out of their shell, and this is kind
of one of the tools they were using.
And so the very first time, it was
kind of just this leap off of a cliff,
trying to break out of the shell.
After that first time, I came to it.
Because I had a deep concussion
and I couldn't walk, work, drive.
And I had tried every medicine out there.
I had tried every doctor out there.
I had tried every physical
therapy out there.
And I was really stuck.
And my partner just wouldn't
let that be the answer.
And.
Did a lot of research and and really
pushed me to try psychedelics to heal
my concussion and thank God because I am
working and driving and living and reading
and walking and It's been a game changer.
I witnessed a lot of emotion that was
coming through you and alive in you
in this moment What's the emotion and
embodied sensation you're having as?
Reviewing this story and invitation.
I think there's just, it was
such a journey to get here.
It was having like the ability
to be brave enough to try.
It was the ability.
To go from not being able to walk.
It was just such a journey and
there were ups and downs with it.
There were journeys that were beautiful
and helped me not only heal my concussion,
but love myself deeply and see the
true nature of true love for myself.
And then there were set and
settings that were really harmful
and really hard to get through.
And so.
I think the emotion is all of it.
It is, it is all of the lessons I learned.
It is all of the prudence
that I've learned with this.
It is all of the bigger, like
questions I have with this.
It's like, you get me started talking.
I'm so, I have so much gratitude.
And then I also have.
Just so many interesting
experiences with it.
Yeah.
And what I love about what you're saying,
and I've been deeply honored by walking
next to you on your journey is your
capacity to respect all of it, right?
You don't throw the bad ones out and
you don't just revere in the good
ones, but the challenging experience.
And what I have always loved about
you is this idea of not judging
it and taking the whole experience
as healing and transformational.
Thank you.
Yeah.
You said a word that I
love and is prudence.
Tell me about being prudent with the
medicines, because that's another
thing that I admire about you, is you
listen very well to when, how, where,
if, and medicines are even necessary.
How do you make that prudent
conversation within yourself?
Yeah, a lot of it has been
learning to trust my intuition.
My first really hard experience
was when I hired a doctor to
do ketamine journeys with me.
And I felt it in my gut.
My gut told me, don't do this.
But it had helped me so much that I was
like, I'm not going to let this fear
stand in the way and I'm going to do it.
And I did, and it was too much and
it was not with compassion and there
was no listening to me as a human.
I have this really cool experience
for me personally in that ketamine
space where a lot of doctors will
look at me and say, Oh, she needs
more because she's still able to
talk or navigate her way through it.
And they'll try to give me.
more ketamine.
And I know that that's
not what my body needs.
And I'm able to discern
in the, in that space.
And that's not normal for
others, but it is normal for me.
And this really hard Experience
happened where this doctor, that's,
that's what happened is he just was
feeling like he knew better and gave
me a really high dose and I, and
then wanted me out of the office.
So it was like moving me while I was still
pretty heavily, heavily sedated, it was,
it was terrifying in that psychedelic
space to be being transported and.
Yeah.
It took, it took a long time
for me to process that one in
particular, but I learned so much.
So you're talking back, you asked about
the prudence piece and what I've learned
through that hard journey and others
where I didn't listen to my intuition.
I didn't listen to my gut when
I was like, Oh, I'm afraid I'm
going to miss out, or I'm afraid
I'm going to miss an opportunity,
or I've already come this far.
I've already traveled all this way.
I have to do it.
Yeah.
And anytime that I've listened to the
fears of, of those fears, instead of
my intuition, that's, those are the
journeys that have gone badly for me.
That's such a breath of fresh air.
And what I honor in you is your
capacity to know what's best for
your body and it's consent, right?
There's so many people now in the clinical
world that think bigger, faster or harder.
It's almost their own clinical ego
rather than allowing the client to
determine and dictate what's right.
And it's really a wonderful way to hear
your accountability of yourself, not
only with your intuition, but agency
of your body, your spirit, right?
Absolutely.
You know, as you're saying that I
we have a kiddo that struggles and
has had the opportunity to also
legally try ketamine through a clinic
and really knows what he wants.
And we just found recently found another
clinic that meets with kids, but they
want him to come in twice a week for,
and do eight sessions in four weeks.
And.
He is like, that sounds like too much.
And I'm like, it's too much.
It is too much and trying to like do
that in between going back to real
life and in school and out of school.
And I can't imagine trying to process.
That much, but the, like the doctors are
like, that's the only way we'll do it
is if you come and you do this clinic
and you do it this many times for this
many hours and you do this dose and
it just, I feel like we all are really
unique beings and when we slow down
to feel into our bodies and what it
actually needs, it, it's not the same.
It's like asking me like who God is.
I will guarantee you that every human
being, no matter what religion or
spirituality you are, is, is going to
have that different definition of what
God is, just the same way our bodies
are that unique in my experience,
and I've never had two people come to
me with the same issue that need the
exact same drug in the exact same way.
Oh my god, thank you so much.
Not only on behalf of you as a mother
and shirpering the trust in listening to
your kiddo, that is priceless and that is
evident of compassion, to speak eloquently
about the universal fingerprint that If
we're in these ketamine clinics or just
go home if they say you're going to do it
differently and that's so inappropriate
and I think disrespectful to the system.
And unaccessible, you know, it's like
we have these people that are deeply
hurting and to commit to twice a week
for three to four weeks is, is a lot
when we still have to come back to
adulting or we still have to come back
to whatever it is that we're facing.
And there's no time for integration.
I don't understand this piece that
they're, they're asking us to do.
They're like, how do we come
back and bring this into our
lives and embody it when we have
to come back a few days later?
And that being said,
ketamines helped me so much.
So it's like, such a struggle for me to
find the right practitioners to work with
that can appreciate that I want time to
integrate and that I actually know that
I don't need that high dose or yeah, I
really gravitate towards humans that'll
listen to what it is that I already know.
Yeah, what's the emotion behind
that that I see in you saying that?
Oh, thanks for asking.
I just wish across the board
that Not just with psychedelics,
but with health care that we.
Practice consent and we practiced helping
people own who they are and listen.
It's like my prayer to the world
is that we listen to human beings
and hear their experience instead
of just trying to quickly get them
out of the office in 15 minutes.
Right.
Thank you for that.
Thank you.
It's like, and what is so valuable is.
Unbeknownst to this conversation and
knowing where it was going to go is your
point of it's not just about psychedelics.
I think psychedelics teaches the
human being so much, and yet what
you just said is vital is how do we
then walk with it in the world and
what are these exercises or lessons
that we learn in the expanded state?
It needs time to drop in.
There needs time to be like,
okay, let me formulate this.
How do I walk with this?
How does this work in real time?
And most of the time, for me,
it's like, yes, the experience
of the medicine is beautiful.
But it's three weeks later
when I'm looking at a tree
that I go, oh my god, I get it.
And without that space to, to feel into
it and to experience it and to see it.
It's lost
for me anyways, no, and I, I appreciate
the I statement, but what I also know
is the clarity of you trusting the
process, you allowing the process
to continue to unfold and unfold.
How do you do that?
How do you listen to the unfolding
as it's three weeks later?
What do you, I talked a little
bit about patience and pause and
perspective in the meditation.
What is your variation of
integration as it unfolds?
For me, a lot of grounding, a lot of, of
coming back and, and touching the earth
and breathing and laughter, actually,
like I have to, I run a tight ship of
kids and life and getting things done.
And I'm one of those people that
are always, you know, going and so
slowing down and grounding and feeling.
Yeah.
Into the laughter of it, like you always
say, serious, why so serious, right?
Like that is part of my integration.
Like what, like, wait, I forgot the joy.
We got to like, where's the joy in this?
Where's the laughter?
Where's the humanness?
And so.
For me, a lot of it is just slowing down
and in whatever I'm doing, whether it's
washing the dishes or waiting for the
kids to come out of school, like taking
time to realize that the fall colors are
changing or that it's raining outside.
That is, that's a huge piece of my
integration because that's where
I find I connect to my humanness.
It's connecting through all these other
little aspects that I was just describing.
Yeah, the five senses, right?
Slowing down to actually live
in what you said, be joyous.
And I so appreciate
that you walk with that.
Because it's important.
It's simply important.
When you And then when I am, when I
am walking with my five senses, when
I am embodying myself, that's where,
where I see the integration happening.
Okay.
It isn't until I slow down enough to,
to feel my five senses that I can fully
integrate my psychedelic experience.
That's a really What I love about
that, and it's completely landing
for me and locking, is this idea that
it actually can be then evidence.
There's almost an inventory that we do,
and if we slow down enough, we actually
know we're doing the devotion between it.
I've actually stopped giving
too much space to work, and so
when I'm listening to you, all I
hear is a deep devotion to self.
I hear this idea of, okay, I'm gonna
slow down, I'm gonna slow it down.
marinate and accept the unexpected.
Is that what I'm also hearing is
allowing the challenging, the positive,
and all the things be present.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
What are you noticing about yourself?
Because I know you've been on this
journey and I've been humbled by
walking with you as long as I have.
What shifts?
What shifts working with and having a
cadence that you listen to, are there
nuances that you're still surprised at?
You know, it's funny, I, if you
would have asked me six years
ago, like, do you love yourself?
I would have said, yeah, sure.
But now if you ask me about it, I would
like take a deep breath, and I would
feel the pleasure of loving myself.
And I do believe that that's
come through this work.
Let's marinate on that for a little more.
And the felt sense of loving
isn't that just priceless?
It's delicious.
It's the simple things for me that I see.
has changed.
Like, I've always prioritized
going to acupuncture, let's say.
But I also felt guilty about
spending the money or the time
or the energy of someone else.
And now when I go into acupuncture,
it's like a gift to myself
that I love giving to my body.
Just it's in like the little reframings
of those little moments that Loving myself
so deeply, I know that I deserve that
time, or that walk, or that beautiful
moon that was out last night, or just
taking the, those, those spaces to just
really feel how much it feels special.
in me to love myself.
This is really moving for me and I want
to just honor you because I know that you
have so many plates in the air and I'm
humbled by this moment but what would you
say to someone that hears loving ourself
because I feel echoes and reverberations
of what you're saying and own it too but
you'll often hear oh there's an insecurity
or a judgment or oh I'm being selfish.
How would you answer the statement
of, isn't that indulgent?
I
think our society has been taught that
for a really long time, that idea of
indulgence or that idea of needing to
deserve a break or , needing to work
so hard that you never take that break.
And
for me,
I think that it's just a letting go.
It's a letting go.
Someone today talked to me about how much
she's struggling with this idea, and
it really resonated with me, of her
mom talking, you know, her mom and
her parents and all the ways that she
was taught as a child to deal with the
hard feelings was to turn on a screen
or buy something new or make it look
shiny because if it looks shiny on the
outside then it'll feel good on the
inside and it never quite does it for us.
And so.
Thinking about this idea of instead
of making it shiny on the outside,
like what's going to make it shiny
on the insect and letting go of
anything else that's surrounding it.
So that's like consumerism.
That's all of the beauty products.
That's all, you know, like,
and I'm not dissing on it.
Like, good.
If that's your thing, great.
But.
Also, what is it that
makes the inside shiny?
So maybe that's sitting and staring
at the moon or maybe that's doing
psychedelics and really intentionally
trying to love yourself, or maybe
that's just putting down this need.
That our society has told us
that we, we can't take a break
because we don't have time.
So perfect.
So perfect.
Yeah.
Sitting by the moon and staring at it.
It feels very cleansing of the soul.
Yeah.
Some people would tell you
that it's very indulgent, Ryan.
How dare they?
Right?
How dare they?
How dare they take my piece?
Well, that's the point, right?
As it really hit me like a ton of bricks,
as you said it, because our culture does,
they want us to run until we're dead.
And even when we're retired, then I see
all these people retiring and they're
like, staying more busy than they did.
And I'm like, where's the slow
down and where's the self love
and compassion and the reflection.
Kristen, what are you doing
to be gentle with yourself?
Well,
that's a really special question to me.
Because it's looks so
different than it used to.
And the biggest thing is just allowing
myself to feel whatever that is.
So if it feels like I need a good cry,
then giving myself The ability and
the time and the space to do that.
And it feels like I need a good laugh,
finding a way to find the joy and
the laughter, just really listening
to what it is I'm, I'm needing and
finding a way, even though it doesn't
always look like a year on a beach
on a remote island, but it can look
like just like that little moment of.
of reading a funny book
or sitting by the moon.
That's fantastic.
Do you give yourself credit
for how far you've come?
Because I'm humbled by your
journey and the devotion you have.
Do you slow down and give yourself
a pat on the back and a high
five for all that you are doing?
I certainly try.
Some days, I can't see it at all.
And then some days I have such gratitude.
It feels like it's
pouring out of every pore.
And I think that's part of the journey.
I'm humbled and completely
indebted to this and the path
that I'm walking with you.
I thank you for trusting me.
And it's wonderful to be
present with you today.
Thanks, Ryan.