3D-Printed Putters and the Science of Feel

What happens when a guy with a Wall Street background decides he’d rather make putters than climb the corporate ladder? For Al Vikmanis, the answer has been a winding path through Arccos, data analytics, custom putter design, metal 3D printing, ferrules, and whatever comes next. The common thread is a willingness to follow the rabbit hole wherever it leads, and a belief that the journey itself is the point.

In this episode of The Bag Drop: Untold Stories in Golf, host Matt Considine and co‑host Dr. Kevin Moore (a.k.a. “The Professor”) sit down with Al Vikmanis, Founder of 3DP Design to talk about the science and craft behind modern golf equipment, from why MOI matters in a putter to how sound actually becomes feel, why 3D printing opens up design possibilities traditional manufacturing can't, and why a ferrule can become a surprisingly personal piece of golf gear. Along the way, he gets candid about leaving Wall Street, embracing work that feels meaningful, learning from spectacular failures, and building a career around curiosity rather than a five-year plan.

The conversation dives into:

• Al's early days at Arccos, helping turn enormous amounts of shot data into something golfers could actually use
• MOI explained without the engineering degree, including why more forgiveness isn't automatically better for every golfer
• How sound becomes feel in a putter, and why putting with headphones on might be costing you more than you realize
• The unlikely path from smuggling putters into a Wall Street office to teaching himself CAD and eventually 3D printing golf clubs
• Why custom ferrules have become a form of personal expression, more like putting stickers on a skateboard than simply changing the cosmetics of a golf club
• The failures behind Al's work, including a collection of enormous 3D-printed mallets that looked like the Starship Enterprise and sounded like tuning forks

Connect with our guests

Al Vikmanis —  💼 https://www.linkedin.com/in/al-vikmanis-3755671/
🌍 Website: https://3dp-design.com/
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Chapters

00:40 - Welcome to The Bag Drop
11:08 - Al Vikmanis joins the show
12:12 - From Arccos data to custom putter design
18:51 - What Al learned from working at an early-stage startup
21:03 - Leaving Wall Street and finding meaningful work
24:21 - MOI explained
30:33 - Why sound is feel
34:11 - How Al got into making putters
37:44 - Why custom 3D-printed equipment doesn't scale
41:20 - How metal 3D printing actually works
43:32 - Where 3D printing fits into the future of golf equipment
47:20 - The early failures of 3D-printed putters
51:08 - Learning from bad ideas
54:09 - How Al and Patrick Boyd started working together
56:52 - Why golfers love custom ferrules
59:24 - Ball markers, divot tools, and personal expression
1:02:21 - The creative side of Al Vikmanis
1:10:53 - What's in Al's golf bag
1:18:12 - What comes next for golf equipment
1:20:12 - “The journey is the point”

What is The Bag Drop?

The Bag Drop features weekly stories from the culture, community and characters shaping golf today. Produced by NewClub Golf Society, each episode blends authenticity and expert insights for passionate golfers at all levels. Special guests from clubs, courses and every corner of the changing landscape join us for thoughtful, in‑depth discussions on all things golf.

What is NewClub?

Founded in 2017, NewClub is the premier private golf society in the United States. It blends the community and access of a private club with the variety and affordability of public golf. Members enjoy thousands of reserved tee times, competitions and events at exceptional partner courses across our local chapters, as well as signature trips and exclusive perks. NewClub is revolutionizing golf membership, making the game more meaningful for those who love it.

Creators and Guests

Host

Matt Considine

Founder of NewClub and our resident feel player. Matt’s junior golf career led him to the University of Akron where he met our co-host. During his junior year, Matt Studied abroad in Ireland and discovered golf societies. Subsequent trips to Scotland fed his passion for the history, ideals, and culture of accessible, affordable, and sustainable golf, a concept he would later bring to the U.S. with NewClub. Known for his interviewing style, quick wit, and compelling storytelling, Matt brings thoughtful, reflective conversations to The Bag Drop. His professional journey before NewClub included multiple leadership positions in growth-stage startups, where he managed teams responsible for more than $250 million in revenue. Matt actively gives back to the game as a Board Member of the First Tee of Akron and past chair of the Evans Scholar Foundation. Proudly based in his hometown of Akron, Ohio, Matt finds inspiration in family life with his wife, their three children, and their golf dog, Gypsy.

Host

The Professor

NewClub's Chief Ambassador and every golf sicko's favorite educator. Kevin is a thoughtful and deeply curious host. His studied, constructivist approach adds intellectual enrichment and balance to the show. As a professor of Math Education at the University of Georgia, Kevin's background in applied mathematics and cognitive psychology uniquely informs his insights on golf strategy and performance. Originally from Ohio, Kevin was a Division I collegiate golfer at the University of Akron, where his passion for understanding mathematical thinking began. After earning his doctorate from Arizona State University, he combined his analytical expertise with his love for golf by co-founding Golf Blueprint, an organization aimed at helping golfers optimize their games through data-driven strategies. Kevin enjoys balancing deep philosophical discussions with simple pleasures, such as indulging his sweet tooth, cheering on college football, and spending relaxed evenings with his friends, his wife, and their beloved dog, Nole.

What is The Bag Drop: Untold Stories in Golf?

Deeply researched audio documentaries that tell the definitive stories behind golf's greatest clubs + weekly conversations with the characters and communities shaping golf today.

Al (00:00)
for me, like I said, I stepped off the cliff and just like did not have any idea really where my career would take me. Like I wanted to make putters. Next thing you know, I'm working at a startup and then I'm back to putters and now I'm 3D printing wedges and I'm making ferrules. And honestly, I have no idea what the next thing in my golf career will be, but I'm excited to see like I'm open to it. Like that's.

For me, the journey is the point. It's not just like I set out to make, to do one specific thing. It's the journey is the point. And that's analogous to golf in general.

Matt Considine (00:40)
Welcome to the Bag Drop, Untold Stories in Golf. I'm your host, Matt Considine here with our co-host, the Professor Solancha. Professor, how are you?

The Professor (00:50)
Good raining morning to ya. set up here in the new home office. I'm just hoping this thing holds up for the whole episode.

Matt Considine (00:56)
Yeah, we got a new rig. We got a new setup. Your what what what what's changed in the professor's life other than your bookshelf backdrop?

The Professor (01:03)
We're going on research leave this fall. So my goal is to not be in the office until January. So we had to pull bring the whole rig out of the school office, bring it home. we'll have to work on the acoustics of this room. I don't know what to do about the cat.

Matt Considine (01:15)
You sound great. You're

we're dancing, baby. You sound great. It keeps ke

The Professor (01:19)
yeah. and we'll

and we'll see about the cats. I got we're gonna have surprise some visitors through throughout the entire episode.

Matt Considine (01:26)
No, that th that this'll this will be good. We we like our we're at home together in conversation, so we might as well be at our home offices. So it's cool, cool little setup.

The Professor (01:34)
Love it.

Matt Considine (01:35)
we got a great guest today. I'm very excited about that. Al Vickmanis. He's coming on the show. He's the founder of Round Four Putters, three DP Design, thick resume that runs deep. You really

I you know, this is one of those episodes I get a little bit nervous about with the intelligence level between you and our guest. I feel like I'm just gonna get left in the dust once we get to the science behind so much of of what Al has done in in his career. But also, you know, business acumen, time on Wall Street, early development with Arcos, which any golf nerd knows what they've done in the industry. Like it's

It's it's gonna be a fun one today, so I'm really looking forward to talking now.

The Professor (02:19)
Yeah, I've been fortunate to get to meet Al through some mutual friends. And since then, I would say, you know, Al has become one of my golf wives. took a yearly trip with him, visit him several times in a couple different ways. You know, Claire and I, I think we mentioned the show, like the cruise, and he happens to spend some of his time down in Miami. So we always try to meet up with him down there. He was actually the one that took me out to the park and suggested playing that. So our previous episode with Brian and my fortunate experience there is all thanks to Al.

Al (02:25)
you

The Professor (02:48)
But definitely we're winding back the first time I met him. One of those guys, you know, you meet someone new on a golf trip and you just really wonder are you gonna vibe with them, connect with them? And right away I was like, this is a guy I want to be around, just positive vibes. Like you said, he's super intelligent. He's gonna outkick both of us on everything we talk about today. And then one of those people that's just eclectic in their interests. You can you could play four hours of golf with him, cover twenty-seven different topics, all in deep ways.

across those entire four hours with not a ounce of silence. So yeah, just one of those guys you just wanna spend time around because it's just gonna be good conversation and meaningful conversation the entire time.

Matt Considine (03:24)
You know, we're gonna need some type of fly chart with the the backdrop universe and and how we've

The Professor (03:31)
Yeah.

Matt Considine (03:32)
connected with different guests and why they're on the show. I didn't know, you know, that was kind of the connection of the the the the park, which kind of led to a number of different conversations we've had so far. So that's that's really cool. clearly a thoughtful person and and those are the best conversations. Also some opinions that I I think, you know, some of the industry

would it disagree with, which I think is always always enjoyable when it comes to conversation. other things I'm excited about, Professor Professor, what's your thoughts on couples golf? You know, you and your spouse going out and playing the game.

The Professor (04:09)
No, I I frankly it's funny you say that. Just last night we had gotten we had received from our country club you know, the weekly email they send out and they brought up mixed sticks, couples golf. And I sent along to Claire that, hey, we should do this some weekend. It's you know, typical nine-hole scramble format with cocktails, little small bites sort of thing. I'm a huge proponent of it. I'm certainly I'm I personally have never understood the camp. I don't want my partner to play golf because that's my thing.

I've always really enjoyed with my partner and with my friends sharing things with them. So I I love the idea of couples golf. I'm looking forward to when she gets tenure and puts more time in the golf. she's someone that only excels at things. So she doesn't want to just, you know, play golf once every Saturday. She knows it's gonna be something she wants to do daily and get better at. And I look forward to when she can do that more so we can play together. So I'm all in on on partner golf, couples golf. and I look forward to her being able to play more so we can do that.

Matt Considine (05:02)
Yeah, it it's it's on my mind because I literally just before getting on to the the show here, I had to get my wife's golf clubs down from the spot that I don't think they've unfortunately moved since we moved into

The Professor (05:17)
Yeah.

Matt Considine (05:17)
this house three years ago and had, you know, two more kids. yeah, it's it's we're we're playing new club Northeast Ohio's member guest is tomorrow. My my wife and I are teaming up to to go get

A stinger title. And she she's hitting balls right now as we speak. My wife is hitting balls. So I'm I'm just excited to get back out there. And and it's been a conversation point for new club members. We're making a hard push to really increase our female membership and and to do that, you know, a lot of our members have spouses at play. And and and I think it's interesting,

Al (05:30)
So, I'm start presentation.

The Professor (05:35)
I love it.

Matt Considine (05:51)
you know, what one element from what you said golf, it's fine. I have heard that refrain of, you know, it's my thing.

And and everybody needs a thing. And I've heard this from our female members too, right? It's like it's it's their thing. My hu my husband doesn't like

The Professor (06:04)
Yeah, and I and I

Yeah, and I think it's okay to like for me, golf is still an escape, even though if she participates in it, I can still go have it as an escape when I need it, where I'm gonna play it by myself, I'm gonna travel by myself. So I don't think those two things are mutually mutually exc exclusive is what I would say.

Al (06:21)
you

Matt Considine (06:23)
Yeah, ex and and th tha that's exactly where my thought was. Golf i i it's unique almost in this way that it's such a broad like golf is it's a small world, but it's also so broad in its application. And so there there's like the idea of playing with your spouse and maybe your different levels, but then there's the idea of of social golf, there's the idea of competitive golf, there's the idea of, you know, golf with hickories, there's the idea of golf with

you know, souped up soon to be illegal equipment. Like like I I just think there's a lot of different ways that you can actually approach your golf golf as a meditative practice on a range, on a putting green. You know, there and and I just I just think that the people that maybe think like, it's my thing and not their thing and you you do need that. I I'm not saying that's not it, but but it might just be a different form of the thing. It c you could still have your thing in a different way. Anyways,

What about a teaching for us, Professor? I'm stepping on your toes, taking too much time, talking talk I'm just giddy. I'm giddy that I get to play with my wife tomorrow. What what are you gonna teach us before we get to our our special guest today?

The Professor (07:27)
Th this one is entirely random. I'm not sure where I heard this in the last week, but it just stuck with me all week. so with your favorite candies as a kid, is there anything that stands out to you that you just loved as a kid? Hey, this is what I want when I'm a candy guy. I'm a huge candy guy. I don't think you actually are, but

Matt Considine (07:43)
I I've gotten more of a sweet tooth over the years, but it's the same for me as it was when I was a kid, and I'm a peanut butter junkie, so it's Reese's.

The Professor (07:52)
yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's my I've been I've had two too many recently. did you like Pez as a kid?

Matt Considine (08:00)
I enjoyed Pez. I thought Pez was hilarious. I I I just

The Professor (08:03)
So

Matt Considine (08:04)
the dispenser is what the the joy of Pez is.

The Professor (08:07)
All right. So do you know where that dispenser comes from?

Matt Considine (08:11)
China 'cause it's plastic hunk of junk. I don't know.

The Professor (08:15)
So P

Pez itself goes back to Vienna, like 1920s, right? But the dispenser itself is actually the story. So Pez wasn't for kids. It was for smokers, actually. So it was just yeah, it was it the container showed up, I think, in the 1940s, right around 1950s, not shaped like a cartoon character at all. It was just shaped like a cigarette lighter. So they're being marketed as essentially a breath make mint. Eventually it came.

it came to be a getting rid of the habit of smoking. So rather than reaching for a cigarette, go for Pez as sort of your anti-smoking thing. And then over time, I think it was like maybe at the Vienna Trade Fair, some people saw it in America, brought it over the United States, started popping Mickey Mouse and Popeye Heads on top, and then turning that mint, anti smoking mint, into candy for kids. And that's the Pez we now know and love. But now if you think about it next time you see one,

That container very much like a cigarette lighter and performs in the same way.

Matt Considine (09:17)
How about that? Yeah. man, that's that's a good one. That's a good nugget. I did not realize that. 'Cause my kids still love I don't I don't know where they get but they still love those dispensers. It's it's great. Until you really get a flavor for the the taste and then you just open up the whole pack and dump it in your mouth. Yeah.

The Professor (09:32)
that's that's yeah. I

yeah, the con the container ends up being worthless. Just

Matt Considine (09:36)
Ha ha.

The Professor (09:36)
take it all at once.

Matt Considine (09:39)
Well, before we get to our guest and Al, our conversation with him today, special thanks to our friends at Titleist and the all new GTS series of Metalwoods. Professor, I'm running out of ways to say how much I love this golf club. The driver for me is a game changer. I'm sending it. You know, I I probably a word we're gonna hear at some point on this conversation today is MOI I'm not an engineer. I don't fully get it, but what I do get.

Is that this jump from GT to GTS has given me more stability while still having a lot of speed. And and and I still have some feel to it of like, okay, that was a miss hit, but it's 310 down the middle. I think I can live with that. It is a remarkable leap, I think, that they've made with this series of Metal Woods. And and all props, honestly, to the the fitting team at Titalist. I I'm getting reports from our Chicago members that

They they had an unbelievable fitting day and and everybody kind of squared into something different. And and I just think that's a testament to them taking it seriously and trying to get you get you into not just a new driver, but the right new driver for you. So check them out, the new GTS series of Family Woods over at Titleist.com Professor, let's get on to the

show.

Al Vikmanis welcome to the Bag Drop.

Al (11:08)
Thank you for having me. I'm honored and delighted to be with you. Long time listener, first time guest. Love the show. Thrilled to spend some time talking to you guys.

Matt Considine (11:19)
be honest, do you tune into the show for the conversation or just the professor's teaching of the week?

Al (11:25)
I mean, I can't get that earworm of a jingle out of my head. No, I like it all. I mean, you guys cover such a broad range of topics and you have such interesting guests. Not every guest runs right down my lane, but I always learn something new. I mean, even if it's just the fact of the week, but no, I mean, your guests are great. Your conversations are great. You guys go deep. Love it.

Matt Considine (11:49)
Thanks, man. well that's not gonna be hard today with with you and and your background in the world of golf. instead of the the usual chronological tale of you know who you are and where you're from, I I I thought I'd dive into something that jumped off at me was your time at Arcos. And and you were what what it seemed like, you know, gosh, when you think about Arcos, just the piles of shot data that you you

Al (12:11)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Considine (12:12)
that that you're sort sorted through to get an answer to golfers.

And then there's looking at what you do now at round four putters in the custom putter world with a pile of probably specs and endless possibilities with the way that you do

Al (12:27)
Sure.

Matt Considine (12:27)
things, which is very unique and we're going to get into. But but but you're also looking kind of for one clear answer, right? So you're kind of boiling it down the world of possibilities into the singular putter for for the right player. So my question's.

How similar were those are those jobs? How similar is what you do now to what you're

Al (12:45)
They're very different.

Matt Considine (12:46)
doing at Arcos? Yeah.

Al (12:47)
very different. First, I largely retired the Round 4 putters brand way back when I teamed up with National Custom Works, like many years ago now. I started up 3DP Design as a new brand to really highlight the fact that the focus is on 3D printing and utilizing that new technology. But it's totally different what I do these days versus what I was doing there. The company structure.

Arcos is a traditional VC backed startup. It's very tech focused. I mean, we have like a team with software engineers that were building an app and working on hardware and know, dozens of people, like a real office. The club business that I do now with 3DP and in collaboration with BBNF and National Custom is way smaller. I mean, we have a much smaller team. It's very individual craftsman.

totally direct to consumer. Like we don't, we don't do like big retail outlets and everything. We don't have a sales team. It's much more like straight to the client, direct to consumer, right on social media, Instagram, all that kind of stuff. But my job is totally different too. So I joined Arcos before they launched the product. I think I was like employee number 20 or something. I had known the CEO, before he even started the company. And after he got funding, he called me up and he was like, Hey, you know, I got,

I got investors, we got a product, we're going, like you gotta come join us. And I love the product concept so much. I'd seen the early prototypes, I was like, yeah, I'll do that. I'll just table the thing I was working on for a while and come join you and help develop this product. And it was awesome. Like this is where Kevin and I really overlap a lot is that I did a lot of the work on the analytics and like developing the Strokes Gain model and figuring out how to turn this technology concept into a usable product

for the customer. And like, you know, like, what do we do with all this data, all this shot information? How do we distill it? How do we bring it into a usable, actionable thing for the people that are actually buying and using the product? And the product development phase was so much fun. Sal, the CEO and I would go and play 18 holes of golf every morning before going into the office. And then we would get into the office and we would compare the data with the analytics that we were generating and saying, and trying to figure out like,

How is, where's it right? Where's it wrong? How do we fix it? And then how do we turn it into something useful? And that was, that was ton of fun. I mean, I was just playing golf every day and geeking out on golf stats and man, it was great. Once you launch the product, then the whole world changes. You've got customers, you've got customer experience, which I was my department as well. Like I was set up all the staff to like handle everyone's problems.

So a technology product is always going to have some user learning curve challenges. So dealing with all that stuff was not nearly as fun as the product development stuff. But I spent two years there, had a great time, learned a ton, did it. I feel like accomplished a ton. Still in touch with some of the people from there. The original investor was actually a classmate of mine in business school.

keep in touch a little bit, like I played golf with them a few weeks ago and it was really cool just to hear like where they're at and in their life cycle and what the future holds for them. And yeah, ArtCross was a blast. it blows my mind that that product even exists. I mean, cause

The Professor (16:02)
Mm, mm-hmm.

Al (16:03)
before it was launched, like it wasn't even possible. It's one of those, one of those many, many products. I mean, the traditional example that everyone uses is Uber. One of those products that could not have existed.

before the iPhone, before smartphones. But now we all have these computers in our pockets with GPS transmitters and data collection capabilities that are just so expansive and mind blowing. And it's really cool to create like an entirely new product category and then just see it go. It's awesome that the company has grown and thrived. It's funny, I mean, you guys have been in golf for a long time. When we first launched, we actually had a competitor that had beaten us to market. It was called GameGolf.

They had investors

The Professor (16:44)
Yeah, yeah.

Al (16:45)
and they had a bunch of PGA Tour pros who had gotten on board. And we were feeling like the crunch was like, man, we got to get this product to market. We're losing market share. We've got a competitor to get out there, but their product wasn't as good. And so they didn't survive. So it's really great to see that our post did survive and it's continued to improve and grow. I'm really, I'm proud of the participation I had in the company, which was now quite a while ago. I mean, I was there.

for the very early stages. It's been quite a while since I left there. But I'm glad to see them grow and survive. And I hope that lots and lots of golfers out there are getting a really good, getting something out of that. Because it's just cool. You can see so much insights into your game and learn and improve. And the transformation, which happened actually after I left, was they went from sort of a stats gathering

concept to a caddy in your pocket trying to give you actionable advice on the golf course, not just saying how far is it to the green, but saying the wind is this strong and it's out of this direction. You normally hit your six iron this far, but it's actually even uphill and into the wind. So I'm going to give you a four iron saying don't miss the fairway on the right. Everybody makes bogey from over there, you know, aim to the left side of the fairway because you want to bias that side for the miss.

It's actionable, real-time advice.

Matt Considine (18:07)
Yeah.

Al (18:07)
That's just cool.

Matt Considine (18:09)
It it really is. I I've I've met Sal once and it was in those early days and I remember people kinda d really thinking it was crazy, about how you guys were gonna, you know, get all the data and apply it. And and I just think about the entrepreneurial journey, Al. I I I'm I'm curious and i I tell people all the time if you get a chance to be a part of early, early stage anything, at any stage in life too.

don't pass it up because the lessons are remarkable. Like remarkable. You're gonna be doing things that you never thought you would or you'd have to worry about, but you you're gonna learn so much. So what I'm I'm curious about with those early Arcos days is in what ways do those days show up in what you do today and how you fit and design a putter?

Al (18:51)
No, so that's a great parallel, actually. Like I wholeheartedly agree with your your sentiment about joining early stage upstart kind of things, because unlike a big organization, there's no one else to pass the buck to. know, something needs to get done. You got to do it. You you do you wear so many hats. You learn so many different things. You do so many different things. And it teaches you just initiative and and self motivation. It's just like

It's got to get done. So somebody's got to do it. So it's going to be me. And that is a direct parallel to what I do with with club with club building, with feral building, with everything. It's like, you know, you have no compunction about just getting your hands dirty and doing anything and everything. And that's and that's awesome. I love working with clients. I love honestly my club building time is much more constrained these days. The feral.

business with BBNF is so crowding out everything. I that business just keeps growing so fast. But club building is my actual passion, like making putters, designers, work because it's all about custom for me. Like I will work directly with a client. If they have the time and the inclination, I will send them to a local fitter and say, get on a Sam putt lab, get the output, send me the output and let's do a deep dive. Send me some video of your stroke.

Let's talk like what is it that you struggle with? are your strengths and weaknesses? What do you like? What do you like to see? What do you like to feel? You know, all that stuff and doing a real deep dive and doing it all with the client and getting to know that client, getting, you know, doing the work.

The Professor (20:28)
Ow, it's my time with you, just what you just said there resonates so much because you you've always been such a giving individual individual, someone that's so attuned to what the other person is experiencing. You want them to have a good time. You're overly generous with your own time. And that just I mean, this entire podcast so far is you want to help people. If that's through Arcos and

Al (20:49)
Yeah.

The Professor (20:50)
translating data to their game, if that's building equipment.

Have you always been that way your whole life? Is that something that developed later in life? Just this generosity

Al (20:59)
I

The Professor (20:59)
of wanting to help people achieve what they're trying to achieve?

Al (21:03)
I I grew up in Minnesota, so I have a little bit of that Minnesota nice thing going on. no, I mean, I think, I mean, I'm about to turn 49. So, I I,

I think occasionally about the arc of my lifetime. As a child, I was not necessarily the most giving person. I think as I matured, yeah, I started to learn what it is in life that I really like and care about. And human connection, working with people, the most rewarding relationships I've had on a professional level have been really collaborative.

learning experiences. It's not so much like before I got into the golf business, I worked on Wall Street and I hated it. I just, you know, I was one those guys that went to business school, was really ambitious and like was really turned on by all the money on Wall Street and went and did that for four years and hated every minute of it and realized through that experience that this is not fulfilling for me. Money is not the end goal. Like things that really make me happy are

not hierarchical situations where you've got a leader telling everyone beneath them, do this, do that, and micromanaging and just all that nonsense. I really enjoy, you know, it can be flat, can be vertical, it doesn't matter. Like I've had great working relationships with people above me and below me where we learn from each other and give and take and grow. And that's great. You know, that's what life is for. Like I don't necessarily, I don't view my accomplishments in life just

through my bank account. I think about the relationships that I have had that endure. Those are fulfilling. so I mean, no, I haven't always been that way, but I've learned to be that way. And I've learned that that's what does it for me.

The Professor (22:45)
I never see you more excited than when you're actually on a putting green with someone and all of a sudden want to talk about the

Al (22:50)
yeah.

The Professor (22:50)
right, the right putter that's gonna help them, right? Like, yeah, that

Al (22:53)
yeah.

The Professor (22:54)
I can see you are most fulfilled. The moment like I put one of your three DP putters in my hand, you're like, that one's not right for you. We should do this, we should do that. If we build one, we're gonna do this. Just you light up and like how content you are the next hour after that. It's it's very, very apparent.

Al (23:08)
There

is no greater reward for me than getting feedback from a client where I did a full deep dive and with custom design for them. Then they send me a note afterwards saying, like, this part is so awesome. I make everything with it. And everybody loves it. And it's so cool. And thank you. And it's just like, yeah, that's great.

Matt Considine (23:27)
I I have yeah when when any any product that your customers become, you know, your best marketing and and

Al (23:34)
Yeah.

Matt Considine (23:35)
I y you're definitely that case 'cause one, they get noticed in in folks' bag bags, I think. And then two,

Al (23:40)
Mm-hmm. yeah.

Matt Considine (23:42)
people do love them. And I think part of that love comes from hearing you describe that creation process. I was actually with one of your customers when

They were having a four hour text conversation with you about what they were trying to get in their

Al (23:53)
wow.

Matt Considine (23:54)
next thing. Yeah, yeah. I was down in in Georgia and and I just thought to myself, man, that there there's a level of commitment here to to getting that right. And I I w w where I want to kind of t take us next is and this is dangerous for me, 'cause you're two in insanely intelligent people I'm talking to right here, who probably did better in science class than I ever dreamed. But

I want to talk about some of the the technical aspects of the putter G built. And

Al (24:20)
Okay.

Matt Considine (24:21)
and so the the one word that's gets gets thrown around a lot is MOI. You know, I I think I somewhat understand MOI, Al, when it comes to my driver club face. I'm not sure I fully understand it when it comes to my putter. So I was hoping you could talk to me as if I was a fifth grader or let's say kindergartner on on why it matters and is it

Underhyped, overhyped, where's your position on it now? Because I feel like y you you've had a a strong stance on this and you've had opinions that that I think some have disagreed with, but but I'm I'm guessing not many people have truly evaluated it evaluated it the way that you have.

Al (25:00)
So it's a deep topic. MOI is, to try to distill it down, it's basically the resistance to twisting. It's the stability of a putter. If you look at somebody walking a tightrope, they carry that giant bar that's 50 feet wide because it makes them stable. It doesn't want to twist. They stick their arms out. It makes them.

It makes it easier to balance, right? You push the distribution of mass further away from the center so it doesn't tip around the center. With putters, with all golf clubs, the concept of MOI will resist or it will reduce twisting on an off-center strike. If you hit the golf ball out on the toe, it's going to push the face open. If you hit the ball ball down on the heel, it's going to pull the face closed.

If you stretch that mass out to the toe and the heel, or to the perimeter of a larger golf club, it just makes it more forgiving on a miss.

This is more or less valuable to different players at different levels, right? The more skilled you are, the more likely you are to hit the dead center of the club face pretty much every time. And MOI is a little less meaningful to you. Like, does Tiger Woods, I mean, who's dimed out his putter face so hard, does he need extra MOI? No, he really doesn't. Does a 25 handicapper who might scuff the turf

on a long lag putt, oh yeah, that guy can use a little forgiveness, right? So you can't say that one size fits all and that everybody needs this or everybody needs that. What matters for my experience, what really, really matters for fitting a putter to someone, first and foremost is looks and feel and fit. MOI is not top of the list. You need to have confidence in your putter. You need to like the way it looks.

It needs to fit your stroke. You need to have the right amount of offset, the right amount of loft, the right amount of toe flow, or torque would be the word that it would be used now. You need to have those things nailed right. Once you do, and most people never get that far, but I go way deeper. Once you've got all those things down, then MOI comes in. It's like, all right, well, I can make you a putter of this shape at this head weight with these playing characteristics.

And then I can take it further and I can with because I 3D print all my putters, I can design them from the inside out rather than just carving them from the outside in. I can design them from the inside out and I can change the internal mass properties. I can stuff the toe and the heel with tungsten. I can stuff the center with aluminum. I can spread all that weight out and then I can put a face on top of it of whatever material you want. And I can boost the MOI by 20, 25 % just to make that same putter that much more forgiving.

How much is that worth? Depends on the player, right? Somebody like Kevin, he doesn't miss the sweet spot, you know? Like, I'm making him a putter right now, actually, and Kevin, I'm apologizing, it's taking me so long. But I'm making him like basically a variant of an old school bullseye design. And it's, that's a really low MOI shape. Like, anybody who's played an old bullseye knows, you missed the sweet spot, it's kind of dead. But his putter is gonna have like,

100 grams of tungsten in it, all spread out to the toe and the heel. And that, you know, is that going to change his putting? No. But on the rare event that he has a miss it, might get him a couple of feet closer to the hole.

Matt Considine (28:37)
Or or

Al if he has a tailgate with the buddies in from Texas before him and a buddy are trying to qualify for the US four ball. You know, maybe there's a putter we could build build for specifically that situation when he's a little shaky, a little dehydrated. Anyways, go ahead, professor.

The Professor (28:53)
Al, real quick, is there any consequence to a good player of going high MOI spread out? Like there's a drop pull back to performance at all?

Al (29:01)
Yeah, it really, there's zero. Well, okay. So there's one trade-off that can be had and that is feel, right? Concentrated mass will have a different resonance property. So everybody talks about feel with putters and people fetishize soft feel and they're like, I want a copper face putter, whatever, you know? Feel is A, subjective and B, it's actually more related to design and shape than it is to like the face material itself.

When you have an impact, when the putter head impacts the golf ball, you have a shock wave that goes from the face back to the flange of the putter. And the shape of the putter itself will resonate. You get harmonic frequencies, and that's where the sound comes from. So I'm sure you guys have tried all sorts of putters in your lifetime. And the difference between an old school 8802 and a brand new modern super high MOI aluminum mallet.

or not even aluminum, maybe steel, like the footprint totally stretched out and thin surfaces all over the place, the sound is going to be completely different. One doesn't have anything to resonate. It's just a thick chunk of steel. And one has thin surfaces that are poorly supported and stretched all the way and that can vibrate. It has resonance. And that resonance translates to louder sound, higher pitched sound. And sound is feel, right? That feedback.

mean, if you play, if you go around to a putting green with these headphones on, with music playing, you can't feel anything because you don't hear anything.

The Professor (30:31)
Yeah. Yeah.

Al (30:33)
Whereas sound is feel like our brains just subconsciously translate that auditory feedback to tactile sensation. And you hear something loud, you feel it as as. Firm or harsher, softer, whatever, you know, it all happens without even thinking. So that is the one potential trade.

trade off with MOIs that as you especially see this, especially with big modern mallets, as you keep stretching that mass further and further away from the center of mass, you create the potential for changes in sound and feel. What I do to combat that is I try not to make a lot of giant mallets. I try to use tungsten, like internally placed because I'm 3D printing.

rather than casting a bigger footprint with traditional casting or milling or whatever. I don't make like giant putters. I make more traditional shapes and I try to use 3D printing and internal distribution of mass to achieve higher M1.

Matt Considine (31:42)
It's so gosh, there's so much in there, Al. The sound, this is something that just or organically happened, but now the way you phrased it makes me realize why. As I would throw the ear pods in and just listen to some tunes while practicing and and as many of the listeners know on this show, I went through some putting woes and for whatever reason when I got to the putting green, I started to take out and and and I knew I lost some feel.

I wasn't thinking like, sound is feel. I was just thinking like, man, I I'm I took out and and sh you know, I think feel has gotten better. So that it is remarkable how important that is. If you ever did you know, anybody listening, you can actually just test it yourself. Go put your ear pods in, whether you're hitting wedges or or chips or putts. that's a huge factor. it's I

Al (32:26)
It's huge,

and it's not just for like preferences in terms of what shape or type of putter that you like. It's huge for distance control. Because when you hear that impact and you get that auditory feedback, it helps you understand how hard you hit the ball. So I struggle. I enjoy trying different putters. I'll go to the store and just hit everything and see what all the other big companies are doing. There are some putter models out there.

that have such low sound qualities, I can't feel how, I could never use one of those. Like my distance control is terrible. It's like a marshmallow. I have no idea how hard

Matt Considine (33:06)
Yeah.

Al (33:07)
I hit the ball.

Matt Considine (33:08)
Yeah.

Al (33:09)
But at

the same time, I don't like super loud, super high pitched, pinging putters. Some people do, right? But personally, that just drives me crazy. Everybody's like, so subjective. Everybody's different. Everybody has different. My clients ask me all the time, like, I really want this kind of sound. I want to putter with a sound slot. I want it to sing. I want something really soft. I want deep grooves. I want to like dead knit. Everybody's different.

Matt Considine (33:33)
Let's go down the the path of your journey with three DP design. I I it it's it there's we've seen a lot of companies pop up the last I don't know five or so years where you know guys that that love the art of of putting and they they get CNC machines, right? And and you they start stamping their own stuff. And I've seen many of those putters, they're great putters, but I I also am just curious.

Because you jump out as something different, obviously with the 3D printing, but but was it immediately into that? Like tell me tell me about the the the kind of what led to to three DP and and where you're at

Al (34:11)
Sure.

Matt Considine (34:11)
now and the process of what you just described.

Al (34:14)
So my first foray into making putters was actually making milled putters. I mentioned I used to be a banker. When I was on Ball Street, I was taking a deep dive into my own personal putting. I was smuggling putters into my office in FedEx tubes and sitting on conference calls and just hitting hundreds, if not thousands of putts every day.

I started collecting putters and buying putters and I was doing my own personal journey into finding the best putter for me. And I went through so many putters and I went so deep down the rabbit hole of trying to like figure out the secret sauce for my own putting. I started daydreaming about just making my own. And then when the time came to move on and do something else, I was like, all right, this is what want to do. I want to make putters. I want to figure it out. I want to just go do it myself.

I had, mean, 3D printing plastic existed at the time. I didn't even know that you could 3D print and steal. And so I sat down with a beer and a laptop and said, I'm going to teach myself CAD. Like, let's do this. I thought it would take like two weeks. No, took a lot longer. you know, I

The Professor (35:19)
Yeah, it takes a while.

Al (35:20)
got it done. Like I had time and I had like the capability to like just go sit down and do it. And so I did. And I learned how to design a potter and I

went found him a really good machinist and said, all right, let's make some putters. And I started doing that. And then right as I was sort of launching that, I got that call from Sal. I was like, hey, come join me at Arcos. And I was like, OK. I set that down for a couple of years. When I came back to it, actually, when I was at Arcos, I went to the Consumer Electronics Show in Vegas just to like noodle around, see what other companies were doing in consumer electronics, other sports focused companies.

just taking sort of a survey of the industry, it was there where I first saw metal 3D printing. And like the hamster just started running. I was like, my God, what a cool putter I could make with that. And so when I moved on from Arcos, I was like, all right, I'm going back to putter making and I'm going to figure out how to 3D print a putter. Because I was never a machinist. Most of the small boutique putter companies that you see out there, as you mentioned, they're guys with CNC mills. A lot of them came to putter making from the machining side of things, where it's like,

They learned how to operate a machine. They're working as machinists. Maybe they already have their own CNC mill, but they're also golfers and they have a passion for it. And they, see the, the CNC putter industry and they say, I can do that too. And so they died into machining putters. I was never a machinist. I'm self-taught with design and CAD and I was outsourcing the milling. And I was like, well, you know, I'm not wed to, I didn't invest, you know, half a million dollars in a CNC mill.

I can just move on. And so I found 3D print shops that can 3D print in steel for me. I outsource that now too. A good metal 3D printer will cost you a million bucks. And then the name of the game, just like with machining, the name of the game is keeping that thing running 24-7, maximizing your throughput. I don't have that kind of volume. And I actually have zero interest in operating a metal 3D printer. I mean, you have to have hazmat suit because you're vacuuming out of this.

powder and certain materials like titanium can be explosive with the dust. Like, no, no, no, no. I'll outs- glad to send that to a pro. I just, I designed the putter. I outsourced the print. The print comes to me and then I do the finishing and assembly and that works great. The problem with all of this is that it's

Matt Considine (37:42)
It is

Al (37:44)
really, there's no economies of scale. It's all custom work. It's very expensive. There are, it's not a scalable business.

I do it as a passion project, not because I think it's going to make me rich.

Matt Considine (37:56)
I did have a a question on that. I'll I'll ask it now. Is that c clearly your motivations were to to to follow your passion? And I it just resonates with me. It's probably resonated with a lot of people that are listening. I I respect that so much, Al. I really do. Cause I know how hard that trade off is. Most people say they want it, but they're like, yeah, but I'll still be able to get the same level of income or or quality of life. And it's like usually you're gonna make a sacrifice, and especially if it's in golf, most of the time.

Al (38:24)
Yeah.

Matt Considine (38:24)
But I also, yeah, I thought about this business and I could tell very clearly this the the scalability of the product is is is a problem. How do you deal

Al (38:33)
Huge.

Matt Considine (38:33)
with that today? Do you is it just priced accordingly to to the time that you're able to invest for each butter? Or are you actually actively trying to solve some of those scale issues that say?

Al (38:46)
A little bit of both. I certainly don't price them such that I'm trying to maximize my profit. If I did that, the price would be so... I mean, it's already a really expensive product. It's really more of a passion. It's what I wanted it to do, and I was willing to take a pretty massive pay cut actually to go do it because I was in a position in life where I could. Honestly, right now,

putter stuff is really getting crowded out. I make ferrules. I collaborate with Patrick at BB &F. I make all the metal ferrules and all the 3D printed ferrules in plastic. And that business just grows so fast. And it's a shame. I get plenty of inbounds from future and past putter clients saying, hey, can you make me a putter? Do you have any capacity? lately I've been saying, I don't like saying no to that ask, but.

I've been saying no more often just because clients have been waiting too long for putters. cause every day. Feral sales just grow faster and faster and faster. That business is, and I, my, I definitely have a greater passion for club making. I've been 3d printing, irons and wedges lately too. And I really, really, really want to go down that rabbit hole, but I'm so busy making ferals and it's hard. mean like.

As a much more rapid turnover business, when people order a set of ferals, they don't want to wait forever. They want to build their clubs. They expect them to be shipped quickly. And so it just drowns. as the business just keeps ramping up, it's drowning out the club business. So I have growing pains. I need more staff. I need more capabilities. I would like to spend more time on the club side. At the moment, I don't have the capacity. But the future...

Hopefully we'll get back to more club building. I'm, Kevin's seen the 3D printed irons and wedges and stuff. They're, they're so good. They're so

The Professor (40:46)
So cool.

Al (40:47)
good. They're so good.

Matt Considine (40:48)
I'll just I I've never

seen it for your equipment and what you build. But I just I do want to say, if you if you're out there and you haven't seen a 3D printing, I mean we're printing in medals. It's it's the craziest thing. And I got to see it up hand for we do these very custom medals for our club champions and only one year and because we ran in the same issues you're talking about with the 3D printers is we we didn't have the availability of the you know, these things require so much.

I I got to go and and watch him be printed and I was actually really skeptical. I'm thinking

Al (41:19)
neat.

Matt Considine (41:20)
I'm thinking I we this should be handmade. This should be, you know, some artisan under a fire should be forging these things. He shouldn't be in. But the w the way it was done and how it got all these fine details it was my mind was blown. It really was.

Al (41:34)
Yeah, there are couple of different technologies to print in steel. The primary, like the most common one is actually with lasers. So it lays down a fine layer of powdered steel, and then the lasers melt that layer. And then it dumps down another layer of powdered steel on top, and then the lasers melt that next layer. And you stack up layer on layer on layer, like hundreds, maybe thousands, depending how big the print is, of layers of that steel.

Once you vacuum out all the unsintered powder, you're left with a solid steel object. It's so cool. The technology is actually not even that new. It's been around for a while, but it's gotten less expensive over time. And you can make awesome stuff with it. Now, it is not cost competitive with traditional manufacturing methods. That's why it's so expensive. And that's not going to change quickly.

I mean, costs have come down. are coming down. New technologies are coming into 3D printing, but you're not going to get a $500 or $1,000 set of 3D printed irons anytime soon. I mean, it's like, it's way more expensive than that. But you can make stuff that you can't make with traditional manufacturing methods. And that's what's cool. And this is a niche business. It's the end of the spectrum for the golf industry.

But for a guy like me who isn't trying to create the next Titleist, but is just trying to have a great time in golf, work in golf, and make some money doing it, that niche is big enough. There are enough clients out there that are willing to spend the money to have what they want. It's like the golf equivalent of a custom-made Savile Road suit. You're going to look great. You're going to love your suit. You're going to spend a lot of money.

The Professor (43:20)
Al, do you think over time, you know, you're bringing, you know, costs likely come down, popularity grows. You know, we see already out some tour players, including Bryson, obviously pursuing the 3D printing, the printed irons.

Al (43:32)
That's a

really cool example. mean, love him or hate him whatever. What he's doing with equipment is interesting and fun to watch, no doubt.

The Professor (43:42)
And if the cost does come down, do you see three D printing in golf becoming the more possibly the majority of just because all the customization and control you can have over your actually build of a club?

Al (43:54)
Not until or unless costs really come down. I mean, not to do too deep a dive into the individual cost numbers, the cost, the margins and the costs involved in traditional manufacturing methods are so low that it's gonna be a long time or it's gonna require some serious step changes in technology.

for a 3D printing to actually be cost effective. So the bulk of the irons and wedges that are on the market these days are cast. And

The Professor (44:27)
Mm-hmm.

Al (44:27)
investment casting is actually a super cheap way to make stuff. And the labor involved in polishing them and assembling them is, it's all done overseas at very low rates. And the true cost to make a cast set of irons is so low, 3D printing is not gonna compete anytime soon.

But the customization aspects are awesome. And yes, mass customization will be probably one of the bigger trends in 3D printing over time. And that will be sort of a pathway for at least the upper end of the market to come into it. Plus other competitors, like, I mean, you already see like Cobra. The big OEMs have been prototyping stuff with 3D printing for very long time. They just don't really talk about it because it's not commercially available.

Cobra has always seen the potential there and they've been doing stuff. They haven't really gone into mass customization yet, but I'm sure it's on their mind because it's

The Professor (45:20)
Mm-hmm.

Al (45:21)
an obvious pathway for this technology to infiltrate the industry.

The Professor (45:27)
Al a similar question to the putting. From a performance standpoint, you know, right riding back to your time at Arcos, you want to help people perform better. If they're thinking 3D printed irons versus, you know, standard irons, is there any performance, potential performance gains, losses going 3D printing? You know, to say currently, but also, you know, as the technology develops, do 3D printed irons become, from a performance standpoint, your best approach because of your control over its design?

Al (45:55)
I believe that it will be. not to like, I have no desire to do Cobra favor, but if you look at their marketing materials for how they they engineer and internally weight with a ton of tungsten, their 3D printed irons, that's the exact same concept that I use with making putters. I've been dabbling with 3D printing wedges and irons and I haven't gone into to internal waiting yet. The deeper I go down that rabbit hole,

the sooner I will get to that point. But that's how it's going to happen, right? It's the exact same concept that I use with putters. You can use 3D printing to mask, you use a ton of tungsten and change the amount of weight in the middle of the club. And you can optimize and increase the MOI and make it more forgiving. I've actually never hit one of the cobras or irons, and I can't tell you how it feels or performs.

There's so much marketing in the industry that you never really know what to believe. But I'll say this, the concept itself is sound. There will be more. You will see other entrants into the space, putters, irons, wedges, whatever. 3D printing will grow. It's not going to go away. It's not a flavor of the month. It's not a gimmick. It's just expensive.

Matt Considine (47:06)
Al, this is something that we've encountered a bunch on this show over the years is someone like yourself that's so early into you know, whatever it is, for you it was mental metal printing of putters, I I believe twenty sixteen. Was that what was the first year you you did it?

Al (47:20)
Yeah, I

probably printed my first club in like 2015, 2016. Actually, it took a long time to prototype and figure out how to do it well. the

Matt Considine (47:29)
I bet.

Al (47:29)
first, I went down some like dead ends for sure. The first few tries didn't necessarily work. I was trying some concepts that didn't pan out. I definitely made some putters that sounded like crap. mean, because going back to your questions about MOI,

I was trying to like max it out. like, hey, this is new technology allows for this. So let's like, let's go, let's take it. Let's push the envelope. Let's take it as far as you can take it. And I learned the hard way. Like there is a, you know, there is a trade off there. If you, if you just completely thin everything out and move all the mass away from this, you end up with a part of that just sounds like a tuning fork. So.

Matt Considine (48:10)
Yeah,

and and what what I'm what I'm curious about though with all you know the industry is catching up to people like yourself, and that's happened in so many other verticals that we've we've like explored on this. I'm just curious for you know, we got Cobra selling clubs, we got Bryson 3D printing his own, probably gonna hit the market at some point with through something. I what d how much of it feels like vindication for someone like yourself that's been on the block for a long time, and how much of it are there parts that still make you say,

You're still missing it. And you don't have to give away any, you know, secrets or whatever,

Al (48:42)
Nah

Matt Considine (48:42)
but how how does that feel for someone in your position that's been doing it for 10 years?

Al (48:47)
I mean, there is a little bit of indication that but definitely I mean, but no one ever told me I was crazy to three, three, something. There's lots of people who said, you you're never gonna make any money because it's too expensive. And there's some truth to that. Like, it's not super scalable.

Yeah, the industry is that I wouldn't say it's necessarily people catching up because like I said, big OEMs have been prototyping stuff with 3D printing for a very long time. Like they know it's there. just haven't, they have sunk costs invested in their existing production lines that they have no desire to cannibalize. mean, if take your favorite big brand potter maker who mills putters and sells tens of thousands of putters like a month or something, you know.

They have invested a ton of money into those production lines. if the market leader were to, say, to launch a 3D printed putter line tomorrow, the world would jump at it. They would be turned on by it. And they would stop buying the CNC-built stuff, assuming the price weren't crazy. And they have no desire to cannibalize that existing line. They have no motivation, no incentive.

there is inertia in the industry. And that in and of itself is not to say that that's not like an indication that 3D printing is not viable. It's just the way the market is structured. I wouldn't say that it's the market catching up to new concepts. Concepts of MOI have been around with putter design and putter making for a very long time. And all the companies focus on it and have been pushing that.

as a feature for a long time, especially, I mean, you see the growth in like big, big mallets. It's all MOI driven, you know, it's just the only way you can really compete other than just design and looks. You say, our putter is more forgiving and you could quantify it too, which is like the rare thing in golf is that so much of it's subjective. MOI is actually quantifiable, which is neat, you know. I wouldn't say that people are catching up. I'd say that the market's maturing and growing and

You'll see more of that. Like I said, 3D printing is not going anywhere. It's either going to get cheaper or people are going to spend more.

Matt Considine (51:01)
You you mentioned in that this those those early days. I I love the failures. I love I eat up. They make

Al (51:07)
Yeah.

Matt Considine (51:08)
me feel better about my own entrepreneurial journey. So give give me one, whether it's a putter design or a a feral design or what just like that was epic failure for most objective standards. But but then tell us what it taught you. Like what did being wrong kind of help you get right?

Al (51:26)
I I remember I spent a ton of time on some mallets early in the 3D printing process thinking, know, well, this is greater potential for greater MOI. It's kind of where the market's moving. This is like a great concept for how to really utilize 3D printing to its maximum potential. So I spent all this time developing a series, like a grouping of three really big mallets in three different sizes.

to say, all right, well, maybe the biggest one is too big for you, but the smaller one might. And I spent all this time designing and building out. And they kind of looked like the Starship Enterprise. I they're crazy. And I printed them. I built them out. I made them. And they all just sounded like tuning forks. mean,

The Professor (52:10)
Yeah.

Al (52:10)
they're just terrible. And if I gave them to a person that said, try this, they might say, that's neat looking. Or they might say, that's ugly.

Matt Considine (52:20)
So like you pretty Yeah. that's funny. Even a deaf guy was like, What's that sound? I hate that sounds terrible.

Al (52:26)
But to take it in a completely different direction, Patrick Boyd from BB &F and I, we collaborate on tons of ferals and stuff. We work closely together. We work in clubs, too. We have a running joke. We make so many ferals designs. And if there's ever a design that both of us are really turned on about, nobody wants it. It's true like nine times out of 10. I'll send them a picture of something I designed.

This is so cool. People are going to love this. He's like, yeah, that's great. bah. And then

The Professor (52:59)
Yeah.

Al (52:59)
if there's something, and it runs in other direction, too, if there's something that neither of us like at all, we drop it and it sells it crazy. So there's no accounting for taste. And what we like is not necessarily what the world likes. It's really tough to predict. So there have been tons of failures in terms of feral designs. But thankfully, I mean, it's.

We have so many designs and we're constantly making new ones so that it doesn't really matter. If something doesn't sell, something else will. The feral business is so different than the club business. It's just a completely different game. It's fun, it moves, and it's volume, and it's golf, which is cool. yeah, the successes and failures in that come daily. mean, Patrick drops three ferals a day, if not more.

You see what moves and what grabs and what doesn't.

The Professor (53:51)
Al, I wanna let's touch on the feral business for a second, 'cause it's to me it's absolutely fascinating in the relationship you and Patrick, you know, two wood would have become two close friends in my life. where I wanna start though is not on the ferals themselves, but how did you and Patrick get connected up? I'm actually I I don't think I know that story.

Al (54:09)
it's an interesting story. back in the day, well, it's still the same. Golf WRX does not allow commercial posting unless you're a paid advertiser.

I one day got like a Google alert saying, yeah, there's posting about your putter company and here's the link.

The posting was from somebody just saying, hey, have you guys seen this company? It looks like they're doing cool stuff. It was like my early 3D printed stuff, like the first things I brought to market. And I chimed in. was like, hey, yeah, that's me. Glad to answer any questions you have. Normally, if you do that, WRX would just kind of shut you down pretty quick. But this thread was up for like two days. And on that thread, Ari Tecner, partner in National Custom Works, chimed in and said, hey, what you're doing looks really cool.

And he shot me a DM. He's just like, this is neat. I kind of want to try one of your putters. And I was just like, hey, I know your name. I remember scratch golf. I was like, well, let's trade. Make me some clubs and I'll make you some putters. He's like, well, OK, if you make one for my business partner, Patrick, too. And I was like, deal. He's like, yeah, we're going to be in Florida for the PGA show. And I was like, well, I live in Florida. This is great. Let's meet there. So I made them some putters. And we met up. And they're like,

This is neat. These are cool. Let's let's let's do a collaboration. Let's let's make putters together. We make golf clubs. You make putters. It's complimentary and so. I teamed up with Patrick and Ari with National Custom Work.

The Professor (55:40)
I'm thankful that relationship came to be because it's, you know, through Patrick and Ari is how I got to know you. So d that's push a little bit deeper into the ferrous. I love ferals. I love, you know, everything you and Patrick do, everything Patrick does. I have more ferrous than I probably have clubs for some odd reason. I'm not sure why. When I fly off to Helsinki tomorrow, I'm literally dropping off the clubs at my buddy's house so he can put my Ferrari ferrils on, which means the clubs will no longer perform, but that's a separate

Al (56:07)
Ha

The Professor (56:07)
issue.

Matt Considine (56:08)
And and

Professor, before you get to your question, because I I think I know where you're going, let me just counterbalance that with I am a golf sicko who has never bought a independent feral other than what's come off the rack on my clubs. I've never done it. So I don't really understand it yet, but continue. Good go. I

The Professor (56:30)
That

Al (56:30)
Okay,

The Professor (56:30)
and that's that Go.

Al (56:30)
let me first say, plain

black ferals are tragic.

Matt Considine (56:35)
I had that I set myself up for that, I know,

The Professor (56:34)
There we go. So yeah.

Matt Considine (56:38)
but but

The Professor (56:38)
I I know my feral names. I've got fifes you know, for Scotland and St Andrews on my wedges. I but I have no idea why I love them. So Al, my question is, why do people love ferals? I mean, it's just it's insane what that business is and how it and I'm

Al (56:52)
It's amazing.

The Professor (56:53)
I'm right in the middle of it. I mean, I I love it.

Matt Considine (56:54)
I love that I love that

you're the one that loves I'm the one that has no idea. Yet we're both asking, What is it? What is it about?

Al (56:59)
Okay,

The best analogy I have yet heard is, I can't take credit for this one, but it's like somebody was analogizing golf clubs to skateboards and how when kids get like their own skateboard, at first it's just, you know, it's got some skate pros name on it and it's their board, but once they change the trucks, once they put some stickers on it, then it becomes,

their skateboard. And it's a person a point of personal expression. They chose what stickers to put on it. They chose where to put those stickers. You know, they're choosing the brands that they represent and they like and are turned on by or the town they skate in or whatever, know, whatever the sticker says, you know, that it's like, it's a personalization exercise. And golf clubs, like golf gear is a huge, huge thing. Everybody loves golf gear. It's like

It's a male centric industry. Men do deep dives into gear. They collect stuff, they buy stuff, they judge each other based on how cool their stuff is. That's all understandable and normal from industry to industry. Golf equipment wasn't all that personalizable, isn't all that personalizable. You can go to a club fitter and have a custom set of golf clubs made.

But no one even, people will recognize the heads,

The Professor (58:22)
Yeah, no one knows. Yeah.

Al (58:23)
the brands, but nobody really knows how custom those clubs were. Custom ferrules are like the one visible touch that really says, I had these made for me. And they are, we make such colorful, interesting, different, unique designs. There are so many choices. You can choose one that's pretty obscure. You're not going to see it on someone else's clubs.

And it says something about you. It's you chose that. And it's colors that you like. And it's a design that turns you on. It's like stickering up a kid's skateboard. It's like it's a point of personal expression on your golf clubs that kind of makes them uniquely yours. And it's amazing. Like I give all credit in the world to Patrick. He's the one who sort of created this entire industry. And it's awesome.

Matt Considine (59:10)
We gotta

we gotta get Patrick on, Professor to to

Al (59:12)
yeah you do.

Matt Considine (59:13)
do a deep dive into the feral world because it's what what

Al (59:15)
yeah.

Matt Considine (59:15)
you just said what you said really does resonate and another not a performance based question, but more like I I'm that way with ball markers now. And I know with

Al (59:24)
Sure, sure.

Matt Considine (59:25)
three D P you guys have some awesome ones. I've seen the one that Professor

Al (59:28)
thank you.

Matt Considine (59:29)
carries in his pocket. So I will be

I'll probably putting a custom order after this because I've become very attached to my ball markers. And I lost one that was especially important to me. And I worked so much harder to find that than I've ever worked to find a laser that I forgot on a cart. I was devastated. And and so I think I think that's a little bit of that individualism for me of I I just can never be the guy that's gonna grab the plastic, you know, little ball marker

Al (59:55)
Yeah.

Matt Considine (59:56)
to play my round. I have to look at something that makes me feel like it's.

It's mine, it's personal and and I think we've seen trends with that. So th th the ferals are starting to make a little more sense to me now.

Al (1:00:04)
I

love making ball markers. It's not the biggest part of my business, but I actually take a lot of custom orders for like small custom runs. like some guys doing a bachelor party and he'll pick me up and say like, yo, I need 12 custom ball markers from my bachelor party. Those orders don't make a lot of money, but man, they're fun because it's so personal.

Lo you know any kind of custom run where you put in each guy's name on it. It's it's a marker for the bad guy. I often make markers for like trips that I'm going on to like Kevin's got a couple markers from trips that I've been on with him where I just made her a small batch just for the guys on that trip. No one else in the world is ever going to have that marker. And it's just it. Those are fun gigs like that's you know it's again. It's not scalable. I mean I. And the actual price for a small run like that to.

if you're going to try to make a real business out of it would have to be huge. You you have to do some volume. So I don't really like go out of my way to push that, but I love making ball markers. Ball markers are

The Professor (1:01:06)
And I feel very fortunate to have a rotation and then I get to ro go through you know, every month I think I change between your ball markers and I suggest everyone check out and the divot tools too y you make are awesome. But that

Al (1:01:18)
OK, the dev tools we actually sell a ton of because we there you put a ferrule on top of it.

The Professor (1:01:21)
And they're amazing. Yep.

Al (1:01:25)
Yeah, and we sell even we sell a naked one that you can put your own barrel. So you buy a 10 pack of ferrules and you only have eight irons. You got two extra ferrules. What you going to do? Make a pitch tool.

The Professor (1:01:35)
And that's

Matt Considine (1:01:35)
That's cool.

The Professor (1:01:36)
I think what you hit on with ferals too, it makes the club people I think mistake the feral business or people putting ferals as just purely cosmetic. For me, I think for most people they have meaning, right? It's something in the design that you and Patrick have done that resonates with them. For me, you know, I'm a big Ferrari fan and I have a connection with you and Trey and a couple other guys with F one that when I look at that feral, that every time I hit a shot, it reminds me of that, right? It pulls you guys to the forefront. but you

I think a lot people listening to the first fifty minutes minutes of our interview here with you would, you know, they hear the analytics aspect of you, sort of the engineering mindset, the the design mindset. And what might get lost there, that's starting to come to surface, is you're an very creative individual. What like where's that

Al (1:02:21)
I try, mean, I...

The Professor (1:02:22)
where's that come from? Cause typically those, you know, people would say you're gonna be one or the other. You're gonna be the engineer, the CAD person, or you're gonna be like the artist's creativity. And the designs that you make with ball markers and the feral designs and the laser.

Face putters have this huge artistic element to them.

Al (1:02:38)
I do enjoy that. I won't blow my own heart and say I have great design chops. I don't think I do. Patrick and I work with another guy who does a lot of the design work for the Ferrails, and he is mind blowing. By the way, he's actually very analytical and mathematical. But the color aspect, the color theory and all this, beyond my depth, I just enjoy it. That's something I...

I enjoy doing it. I like making things that do look cool. And not all of my designs are hits, you know? But, you know, it's funny. My mother once asked me, she was like, how did you get, why would you, were you even interested in doing all this like metalwork? And I thought back to it, it was like, you know, back in my ninth grade art class, we had like a jewelry segment. And I went deep, like I was doing all this crazy stuff with different metals and

Everybody else was just making a stupid ring or something and just checking the box. And I was like, no, I want to make this. I want to make that. And my teacher really encouraged me. She was like, this is great. You seem to be really into this. Why don't I teach you how to use an oxyacetylene torch and do some silver soldering? And I was like, yes. And I was so turned on by that. By the way, I've never been able to draw or paint very well at all. I don't have those skills whatsoever. I do all my design work on a computer screen.

The Professor (1:03:52)
Mm-hmm.

Al (1:03:53)
And I do a lot of stuff with my hands, with metal. But where did that passion come from? Early days, I also enjoyed photography. I actually took photography in college and loved that. It was such a wonderful thing to just have a creative outlet in life, something to do that sort of scratches that itch wherever it is deep in my head. Like I said, I never went to art school. I'm not an artist. I'm a commercial artist in a sense.

I enjoy the design aspect. Sometimes people really enjoy what I produce and some designs less than others. The creative process is what it is and I enjoy it.

Matt Considine (1:04:29)
Can we give a a pa pause and a a a shout out to, and I know professor is extremely passionate about this, but a shout out to your art teacher at that age to say,

Al (1:04:39)
yeah, she was great.

Matt Considine (1:04:40)
like clearly recognizing a spark in you and then giving you the opportunity to explore that. Like me and my wife were having this conversation with our our eldest and our five-year-old, like just just part of it feels like you gotta be observant and and see what lights people up inside.

And and and lean into that. And I and I think it's actually tragic. There's a lot of people I've met as adults who have a creative streak. You can s so see it. And it's fighting to get out, but they're working in banking and they're looking at spreadsheets all day because they were kind of told they're good at that. But there's there's something that really lights them up that they weren't allowed or able to explore. So just shout out to teachers who who do that. I mean, I I had the same in my life, Al. It's it's so important.

Al (1:05:24)
And speaking of photography, the podcasters won't hear this, but I took that photo.

The Professor (1:05:29)
And it's a good it's a good special place right there.

Matt Considine (1:05:32)
That that looks like the Nebraska Sand Hills to me. Okay. I could I could guess.

Al (1:05:32)
Kevin recognizes that one. Indeed it is. Yeah, man.

everybody should have a creative outlet if they want one. And it's just good for your well-being.

The Professor (1:05:45)
I think to that point on education and teachers, too. I think a lot of people make the mistake of only looking at the educational system as teaching, you know, math, English, literature. I've always believed, in terms of it being a social safety net or social structure that's supporting, you know, the citizens, that getting kids exposed to as many teachers as possible for those exact moments when something comes up, right? If they're always seeing the same teacher for 12 years.

probability is extremely low, but they just go cycle through a lot of different content courses with a lot of different

Al (1:06:16)
yeah.

The Professor (1:06:16)
teachers. You only need that one inspiration through K through twelve. So the more courses they

Al (1:06:19)
Yeah. Yeah.

The Professor (1:06:20)
can take across the more teachers, you get re you're increasing the probability of those inspirations.

Al (1:06:23)
Yeah.

That same year I had a pottery segment that did nothing.

The Professor (1:06:30)
Yeah.

Al (1:06:31)
Yeah, you never know.

The Professor (1:06:32)
Al I gotta ask. We've this whole pot like just we're geeking out on golf clubs and all that. And I already know the answer to this, so I'm gonna ask it because I think people might be surprised. What's in the bag? If one someone's gonna play golf with Al McMahonis, what

Al (1:06:45)
my god.

The Professor (1:06:48)
what is in Al's bag? Because surely it's three D printed irons and it's this and that and it's the newest and greatest stuff. I mean, I just played with you at the

park. What do we got?

Matt Considine (1:06:57)
I was definitely thinking the same thing, Professor, so thank you for asking.

Al (1:07:01)
I should do a what's in the bag for my Instagram followers someday. It's just, it's like the head covers are so beat up and old and tired and they're almost embarrassingly bad. But I'm one of those guys that like takes it as a point of pride and like, like, like they say, you never want to play for money with a guy with his name on his bag. You also don't want to play for money with a guy who's got like ancient looking clubs in his bag, but you know, still looks like he knows how to play. I'll start with the bottom of the bag. My putter is,

3D printed, like, it was an early model. been in the bag for about six years. Before I started making putters, I was a total putter hoe. I mean, I was just bouncing from thing to thing. Nothing ever stayed in the bag for more than a year at most. And this putter, I I made something to replace it once, but that got kicked out of the bag in like two months. This has been my go-to for six years. I actually have another on the workbench that I'm gonna...

try to kick this one out with. It's the same shape, it's just a little bit bigger. But we'll see if that kicks it out. Wedges, I 3D printed my own wedges. I tattooed them up with laser engraving and they're just filthy good. I'm

The Professor (1:08:10)
There you go. L th.

Matt Considine (1:08:11)
High bounce guy, low bounce guy, what

Al (1:08:13)
a little, I vary. So my 60, which is my primary club, like anywhere inside of a hundred yards. It's pretty rare for me to use anything else.

is actually pretty low bounce with a pretty sharp leading edge. I played Florida. Conditions can be all over the place. They can be wet. I like to just manipulate the face to get the bounce that I need. I tend to hit a lot of low shots just trying to go ball first. But I like to be able to get under that ball when I need to get it up.

You know, everybody's different. I'm not a great wedge fitter. Like if you have a conversation with Patrick or, you know, somebody that really knows how to fit wedges, you can go deep dive. I just been using the same grind for years. I modeled the 3D print off of a wedge that Jeff McCoy ground for me, which had been working great for me. So I just scanned it and 3D printed it and made it for myself. And now that I have that and can make that, I'll just keep making more for myself forever.

I play a 52, 56, 60, and all three of them are 3D printed. All three of them are actually scanned reproductions of Jeff McCoy ground wedges for me. Patrick did a fitting for me with wedges, and she said, this is what you need. This is the bounce. This is the shape. And he was spot on. My wedge has been super thrilled with forever. My irons, I go five through pitch. I actually don't have 3D printed irons in the bag right now because I haven't.

settled on a shape that I want to make and I haven't had time to make them. But I have a great set of Don White blades that National Custom that have been in the bag forever. Before I met Ari and Patrick, I had been playing Mieras forever and I kind of just assumed like the Nationals would be the same. no, no, no, no. The sole grind, the leading edge grind is completely different. The turf interaction works so well for me.

Again, I will 3D print my next set of irons, but I'm going to make them with the same sole shape as the ones in my bag. I have the, moving up the bag, I play a three and a four hybrid, but they're old school Adam's peanuts. One's a 20 degree, one's a 23 degree. They are

The Professor (1:10:18)
Old school too.

Al (1:10:19)
from 2000. I went and got myself a fitting as a graduation gift when I finished my MBA, and that was in 2007.

So they're from 2007 and they fit the gaps in my bag just right and I can work them both ways. I can hit it high, I can hit it low. Like I don't know that those are ever gonna be my bag. Like I've reshafted them. They're great. They're small, they inspire confidence in me. I don't wanna see a giant hybrid head. It's not a fair way.

The Professor (1:10:50)
Yeah, you stripe you stripe

I can cut a test, you stripe

Al (1:10:53)
Thank you. And then I play a four wood, 16 degree. It's like, OK, so actually my driver and my four wood match, I got fitted for them in 2015. It's Callaway XR. Yeah. The four wood, I I hit it better than a three wood. It's one degree difference in loft, half an inch shorter. I'm more consistent with it. I get the same distance.

Matt Considine (1:11:17)
I'm I'm back in

the forewood camp. I don't know if you know that professor. The di

Al (1:11:19)
Yeah, I love it. I love it.

Matt Considine (1:11:20)
the the loft of

The Professor (1:11:21)
Okay.

Matt Considine (1:11:21)
the forward. And you know what's funny? As a high schooler I had a forward and I I think I'd like thirty years of golf back, is what I've decided. I think I I just went away from the forewood

Al (1:11:30)
It's easier.

Matt Considine (1:11:31)
and I don't know why, but man, it is it it's easier to get in the air. Yeah, that's all that's basically the

Al (1:11:33)
Yeah. Yeah, easier.

Matt Considine (1:11:36)
the premise for me.

Al (1:11:37)
Yeah, I don't understand how people can play like those 13 degree three woods like where or like a mini driver off the deck. Kevin

Matt Considine (1:11:44)
Yeah, just kinda

Al (1:11:45)
actually saw me hit DoD at the park and I smoked that. Yeah,

The Professor (1:11:47)
I saw it. It was good.

Matt Considine (1:11:49)
Yeah.

Al (1:11:51)
I'm like a one in 10 in the air DoD kind of guy. Like normally that's just like a 10 foot high Wormburner. But

Matt Considine (1:11:58)
You want i

yeah, you gotta have the the the the right links conditions to have that be effective, right?

Al (1:12:04)
And then driver, it's a Callaway XR from like 2015. I'm actually on my third head. I've cracked a few over the years. And every time I crack a driver head, actually, I'm starting to hoard them, but I go to to the golf store and I try all the new stuff and I compare

The Professor (1:12:21)
Mm-hmm.

Al (1:12:21)
the numbers and I compare the feel and I inevitably conclude like, no, this is no better for me. Like I go to the youth club then and find an old XR or go online and find one and order it up and.

I'm happy with it. It works for me.

Matt Considine (1:12:37)
Yeah, you gotta f I it it's so true. It's like there's so much marketing, but really it's you gotta find what's

Gotta find what's yours. What's yours? All the all the stuff you talked about with custom and

Al (1:12:50)
I'm the last person I know that still hits a titanium driver.

The Professor (1:12:53)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Considine (1:12:53)
Yeah, I think you are. That I know. I

Al (1:12:54)
Yeah. The sound

is completely different. It used to be like everybody's driver sounded like that. Now my driver sounds completely different than everyone else's.

Matt Considine (1:13:04)
I wanna I got a couple more questions and because we can keep going with you for all day, but I want to ask about being in the custom club business. I gotta imagine you've gotten some crazy requests.

Al (1:13:18)
yeah.

Matt Considine (1:13:19)
I would love to get one of those that you either could not do, or maybe just your better conscious decide to talk them out of it. Like what was the weirdest

requests you got that you're like, just no, we're not doing that.

Al (1:13:36)
That's a good question. actually get a ton of those, so it's tough to think of one. It really is tough to think of one because that happens a lot. yeah, it really does.

Matt Considine (1:13:42)
Does it? What what what do they think

they want when they come to you? Like what is

Al (1:13:47)
Well, some people are too influenced by golf marketing stuff, and they believe some of the myths out there. And so they're like, can you 3D print in GSS? And it's like, that's not a thing. It's steel. But I think a more interesting story for you is actually a crazy, crazy request that I actually did. The craziest potter I've ever made.

The client wanted a face made out of meteorite.

And I made it for him. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Considine (1:14:15)
Wait. Huh?

The Professor (1:14:16)
He sent you the meteorite? He

Al (1:14:18)
No, no, I had to go find it. So most people don't know much about meteorites. had to start Googling. The bulk of the meteorites that are available in the world, on Earth, I should say, are made, they're like 95 % iron. So it's very similar to steel. It's mostly steel.

It's going to sound and feel like steel. It's got this unique structure to it. It's called the, I don't speak German, it's called the Wiedmannstatt pattern. And it looks like the steel equivalent to particle board. It has these hexagonal lines running through it. And you take one look at it, you're like, wow, that's a spacecraft.

But because it's 95 % iron, they can slice it and you can order it online. You can just buy it. It's not most of it's not terribly expensive. I mean, there more rare meteorites and different kinds that landed in different parts of the earth or whatever. But you can order a slice of meteorite for not too much money. The problem is it's really tough to work with because of that, like that pattern and the fact that it's kind of like particle board, it wants to chip. So

The Professor (1:15:27)
Okay.

Al (1:15:28)
cutting it to shape and working with it actually broke a couple on the way to like getting a face that

that I could fit into this putter. But yeah, I mean, that was one of the coolest projects I ever did. I mean, it's so, so unique,

Matt Considine (1:15:40)
Wasn't expecting that one.

Al (1:15:42)
so unique and just such a personalized putter. And I laser engraved on the sole, falling, burning meteorites with the logo in the middle. And it was just like, this is cool. Like that's what custom allows you to do is not only just like

The Professor (1:15:58)
Yeah.

Al (1:15:58)
for performance aspects, like making sure that you have the right.

loft, lie, shape, offset, headway, all those things. Yes, custom is great for that. But custom is also, if you spend this much money on something made for you, make something really personal and cool. Like this guy had a meteorite wedding ring.

The Professor (1:16:17)
Mm.

Al (1:16:17)
And so for him, it meant something personal. And I loved it. And when he was like, can you do that? was like, yeah, let's do it.

Matt Considine (1:16:24)
My my my my my daughter's deep into space. She loves it. and she swears she has a rock that was from outer space she found in the backyard. So I might have, you know, maybe that's like a sixteenth

Al (1:16:34)
It's possible.

Matt Considine (1:16:35)
birthday thing. We'll see if it sticks around. But I didn't I didn't know that was a possibility. I I didn't know.

Al (1:16:40)
Yeah,

they're not as rare as most people would assume. In fact, there are high end watches out there with meteorite watch faces. Meteorite wedding rings aren't that uncommon. And they have a very unique look to them. that's cool. I I've made faces out of all sorts of stuff. Copper, titanium, Damascus steel, copper vane Damascus steel, all sorts of stuff. that's just what

I mean, that's that extra custom layer that is the personal aesthetic element that ties back to your question earlier about creativity and having creative outlet. It's fun. Making that stuff is fun. There are people out there that want that. So it's fun to have someone out there that can do it and is excited about doing it. And that's

The Professor (1:17:26)
And I'm sure the problem solving too, figuring out something new like that. How do I make this f fit in the face and like yeah, the the accomplishment and fulfillment you get from that? It's gotta be great.

Al (1:17:28)
yeah. It's a challenge. It's a challenge. Tons.

Tons.

Matt Considine (1:17:36)
All right, my my last question might may be somewhat related to to that. And I respect discretion. So if you're in the lab cooking up something right now, Al, with Patrick and the team at National Custom, feel free to abstain or pass on this question. But I'm curious when I talk to someone like yourself, what do you think is the next club making idea that the industry is

maybe not looking at yet or thinking it's too weird, too slow, too expensive. Like what's is there is there something you see coming that we might all be talking about in ten years like we are with three D printing?

Al (1:18:12)
I think it's 3D printing. That's not the earth-shattering answer for you. But you never really know what the next flavor of the month is going to be, because those come and go really fast. But I don't see any huge new things on the horizon that people are unaware of. I do think that the things that are more niche now will become less niche in the future, especially things like 3D printing and mass customization.

Because that's, mass customization is a trend in golf beyond just 3D printing. People want custom stuff. They want custom fit clubs, right? That has been a huge, huge trend over the last decade or two is people going to, you know, either a local guy or one of the chains and going in saying, and hitting on a track man and getting their stats and trying different shafts and trying different heads and getting a set of clubs made for them.

And I think that trend is not going to turn around at all. You're just going to see it getting deeper and trending into further things and potentially things like 3D printing custom heads. That's not going to be ubiquitous anytime soon, but it wouldn't shock me if it happens within the next decade or so. Wouldn't shock me.

Matt Considine (1:19:23)
There you have it. There you have it. Well, Al, this is awesome. Thank you for for joining us today. I look forward to hopefully playing some golf with you at some point, seeing how that bag is evolving

Al (1:19:32)
Absolutely.

Matt Considine (1:19:33)
and and and getting out there. Professor, anything else for Al before we we wrap here?

The Professor (1:19:39)
We should find a way is to tee it up on the park, down there with now.

Al (1:19:41)
yeah, I love the park.

The Professor (1:19:42)
That's what we should and get Brian to join up with us.

Matt Considine (1:19:44)
There we go, there we go.

Al (1:19:45)
The park

is great. Like shout out to Muni Golf and thank you both for having me. It's been an honor and privilege. I love your show and I'm thrilled to have been a guest.

The Professor (1:19:56)
Well, appreciate everything you do, Alan. I appreciate your friendship the most. But then also what you bring to golf world. Both obviously your products, what you and Patrick do, are just I can't suggest them enough to everybody, but just your mind that you bring to golf and the perspective you bring and what you're trying to contribute. I thank you for that.

Al (1:20:12)
Thank

you. Thank you. mean, for me, like I said, I stepped off the cliff and just like did not have any idea really where my career would take me. Like I wanted to make putters. Next thing you know, I'm working at a startup and then I'm back to putters and now I'm 3D printing wedges and I'm making ferrules. And honestly, I have no idea what the next thing in my golf career will be, but I'm excited to see like I'm open to it. Like that's.

For me, the journey is the point. It's not just like I set out to make, to do one specific thing. It's the journey is the point. And that's analogous to golf in general.

Matt Considine (1:20:49)
Here, here.

The Professor (1:20:50)
yes.

Matt Considine (1:20:51)
Good way to wrap us. And and thank you for everybody out there that's listening. Our listeners. If you want to connect with the professor, myself, our guest Al today, all those handles, links, they're in our show notes. So wherever you're listening, you can click those and reach out. also a new development professor. I I didn't know people can comment on all these platforms. So there was a bunch of comments hanging out there that I've never looked at before. so so

The Professor (1:21:16)
Never read the comments. Never read them.

Al (1:21:18)
hahahaha

Matt Considine (1:21:19)
Instead of calling for, you know, folks to like, rate, review, and and shoot us a note. I'm gonna call, give us some comments, guys. I didn't know you could do that, but apparently they are. I responded to a couple last night. maybe that's a bad idea, but anyways, always fun engaging with everybody that enjoys this show. this podcast, the Bag Drop and New Club Golf Society, are in partnership with Titleist It's number one ball in golf, and they're all new. GTS Metalwoods are out now. You can find them over at

Titleist dot com Professor, we'll catch you on the next one.