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Work-life balance isn’t a myth—it’s a mission. At The Double Win Podcast we believe that ambitious, high-growth individuals can experience personal and professional fulfillment simultaneously. Hosted by the creators of the Full Focus Planner, Michael Hyatt and Megan Hyatt Miller, The Double Win Podcast is your go-to resource for unlocking secrets to productivity, wellness, and work-life balance.
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[00:00:00] Carey: I think unexamined motivations drive you until they destroy you. And so one of the questions I'm obsessed with is what are my motivations? Why am I doing what I do? Because if you're listening to a podcast like this, you're addicted to the numbers. You care about performance. You care about success, but what is driving that?
[00:00:22] Michael: Hi, I'm Michael Hyatt.
[00:00:23] Megan: And I'm Megan Hyatt Miller.
[00:00:24] Michael: And you're listening to The Double Wind Show.
[00:00:26] Megan: Well, today we're really excited to share with you our recent conversation with Cary Newhoff.
[00:00:31] Michael: Cary's a good friend. We've both been on his podcast. But he's a former lawyer, turned leadership coach, and founder Of Conexus Church in Ontario, Canada.
[00:00:41] He's the host of the popular leadership podcast, the Kerry Newhoff leadership podcast, which features insights from leaders across various industries. He's the author of several influential books, including didn't see it coming and. At your best carries a sought after speaker on topics such as burnout prevention, productivity, and [00:01:00] time management, which is something we all need and has a strong following in both the business and nonprofit sectors.
[00:01:06] His expertise in managing energy and time has been instrumental in transforming the lives of countless people. professionals. His strategies are focused on helping people build sustainable work life rhythms to achieve long term success and fulfillment.
[00:01:20] Megan: In other words, he's our people. Here's our conversation with Kerry.
[00:01:27] Carey: Kerry, welcome to the show. Hey, it's wonderful to be with you both. Thank you for having me. Well, this is so fun because we've been on
[00:01:33] Michael: your show. Yeah. And I follow you. Love your podcast. Um, I think you're doing such great work and we, you're one of the first names. that we came up with of people we wanted to interview.
[00:01:43] So, we'd love to start at the beginning, because you have such an interesting background, some of which I've given in the opening, but I just want to, I want you to talk about how you went from being a lawyer, to being a pastor, to now being A full time podcaster, content [00:02:00] creator, course creator, all the rest.
[00:02:01] Carey: It's amazing, you know, to look back on my life so far and realize it looks like it has just so many twists and turns to it. And a lot of it was just not even course correction, just kind of putting my mind on something and then being open. to possible corrections. So when I was really, really young, I wanted to be an attorney.
[00:02:24] And I mean, this is pre digital. This is the 1970s. All right. So it's not like I was on YouTube, you know, following somebody. It was like, I heard it was a good job. I can't tell you it was a very deep job. Feeling, but it was just all right, mom and dad. I want to be a lawyer when I grew up and never really gave up on that dream along the way, had a couple of fun things happen.
[00:02:48] You know, when I was about 12, I remember having a very clear moment where I was driving the car with my mom. And we always had the radio on, and I realized, Oh, the guy on the radio is like an actual human being, right? You know, when you [00:03:00] start to put things together. Most people probably put that together when they're 5.
[00:03:03] It took me till I was 12. And then I thought, I wonder what it would take to be one of those people on the radio. So when I was 16, walked into my hometown radio station and asked them to hire me, and they did. And I did radio for 8 years in my little hometown, and then Toronto. Amazing! In a major market.
[00:03:20] Ended up writing a syndicated newspaper column when I was 19 because I was very interested in politics. But then made my way into law school after a degree in history and political science and halfway between first and second year law had a supernatural experience. I would just call it a calling. Now, I was raised in a Christian home, but we were raised Presbyterians and Presbyterians do not have supernatural experiences.
[00:03:44] So things decently in order. Uh, everything was in order and everything was explicable. So it was, uh, it was a calling. And I believe that, you know, it's not just a subjective thing, a calling. It should be affirmed in the people around [00:04:00] you. And I was dating my soon to be wife at the time. And she affirmed it, my parents affirmed it, my pastor affirmed it.
[00:04:07] And I'm like, really? So I finished law. And worked for a year in downtown Toronto, I thought I'm gonna, I'm gonna do the year of articles and like actually complete the bar admission course, which is grueling, got qualified, became a lawyer, then resigned and went into seminary. And the reason I did the extra beyond law school and getting a JD, is I wanted to work for a year because I thought most pastors get criticized for being out of touch, right?
[00:04:33] It's like, you haven't worked a day in your life. You live in some ivory tower. I'm like, I'm going to go earn a paycheck for a year, downtown Toronto law. It'll be as difficult a journey as it can be. And then went into ministry and thought I was going to teach because I don't really have the wiring for a pastor.
[00:04:50] But in 1995, while I was in the middle of seminary. found three little churches about an hour north of Toronto and thought, well, I'll work there for a year. Well, 29 years [00:05:00] later, I'm still here. It's part of our church. Those three little churches, we see spectacular growth. We amalgamated them. They were like historic.
[00:05:08] You think of New England, like small little churches that seat a hundred people. It was three of those. And I would do the circuit on Sunday morning. They they'd been in decline for decades. But somebody, I think Lyle Schaller once said, small churches are like cats. You can't kill them and they have nine lives.
[00:05:24] And there's a lot of truth to that. And they, they'd not really had glory days. They had been, the average attendance when I got there was six at one of the churches, fourteen at the second, and twenty three at the main church. Oh my
[00:05:37] Megan: goodness. It
[00:05:38] Carey: Wow. So tiny. They were so small. Hard to break into small groups.
[00:05:42] Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. But they were hanging on for dear life. And we started to grow. And then, uh, sold those buildings, moved into an elementary school, built a new building. Then we exited a denomination in 2007. Started over again as a non denominational church. Now we're home to three or [00:06:00] four thousand people, have about fifteen hundred on the weekend.
[00:06:02] Good grief. Whoa. Yeah. Yep. Yep. So it's been in the middle of nowhere, literally cows for neighbors. It's amazing to see what God has done. So that's sort of the story of my life. And then, and then eight years ago, stepped out of the lead pastor role and I had been doing some blogging on the side. I had literally just launched a podcast the year before, and I felt some stuff shifting in me as far as my calling, the things that used to excite me, frustrated me.
[00:06:28] And I saw what was ahead and I had the leaders to hand things over to. And I'm like, I think now is the time to go. Did a succession. My successor has done an amazing job. The church is bigger and better than when I led it. And I've been building into leaders. And the way I think about what I do now is, I went to law school and nobody taught me how to run a law firm.
[00:06:48] And I went to seminary and nobody taught me how to run a church. So I try to help leaders with the stuff that nobody taught us. And written some books, thinking how it all links together. radio in a year in [00:07:00] courtroom law prepares you for things like podcasting and public speaking. So it all, it all seems to have a communication theme.
[00:07:06] And, uh, that's what I'm doing these days is communicating with leaders in various forms to try to help them fill in the blanks, the hardest parts of leadership that nobody taught you.
[00:07:15] Megan: Wow. Okay. I have to ask you, because I know our listeners are going to wonder, what do you think the hardest part of leadership is that we have not been taught?
[00:07:24] Carey: So for me, and I think for a lot of other leaders. It's self leadership. It's that ability to heal ourselves, to stay engaged, to stay healthy, everything from avoiding burnout, to not becoming the person everyone resents, to sifting your motivations. to staying engaged at a meaningful level to avoiding cynicism and pride.
[00:07:51] I mean, it's all of those soft issues that we have seen take out so many leaders. I mean, affairs and abuse not withstanding, if you take that [00:08:00] off the table, which are serious issues, but just look at the internal battle of a leader, how lonely it is, how you often feel you don't have anyone to turn to the personal demons you're fighting.
[00:08:12] That is the hardest part of leadership for me. And I think for a lot of leaders.
[00:08:15] Michael: I would agree with that. I work with some church leaders too, and usually it's around those soft leadership skills that they didn't get in seminary, and yet have to utilize every day. And I think the self leadership, self awareness part of it is huge.
[00:08:30] Megan: Well, and you know what is funny? you also work with more business leaders than church leaders as a coach and certainly our clients and so forth and our masterminds. And I don't think anybody learns that. I don't care if you have an MBA. I don't care if you know, you've been in corporate America. Like those are just not things that people are taught, but they're the things they're dying to talk about.
[00:08:51] They're the things they're, uh, They're overwhelmed by that. They can't talk. They feel like they can't talk to their friends about, you know, it's like, it must just be me. Like I'm the only [00:09:00] one that doesn't know how to do these things. And in reality, of course, it's not just only you, it's only everybody.
[00:09:05] But I think what an amazing calling that you have. to speak into those issues because it's just a, it's a vacuum. I
[00:09:12] Carey: agree. It's a business leader thing. You know, in that single year in law, I worked with a lot of lawyers who were really at the top of their game. I mean, it was sort of the wall street of Canada, right?
[00:09:24] Where I was and I saw the top and I realized very early on as a young leader in my mid twenties, Oh, it's empty up here. These are people who were struggling in their marriage. I remember we were going through a modest recession. And the lawyers at the time. So this is like almost 30 years ago. We're making 500, 000 a year, which multiply it today.
[00:09:49] You're pushing seven figures. I don't know what your scale is, but for most of us, that's a decent money, right? And as a student making 35, 000 a year, that seemed like [00:10:00] unrealistic. And I remember the partners walking around the firm talking about how they were gonna 500, Endure a 10 percent pay cut and what a hardship that would be and I'm kind of like I think I could figure that one out at 25 you have lifestyle creep and everything, but then you know divorces and affairs and Misery and unhappiness there.
[00:10:22] There was one lawyer in particular He would come in on a friday afternoon and I remember one friday I'm like low person on the totem pole in this law firm and he waves a lottery ticket in my face You And he goes, if I win this, you will never see my face again. Now I'm kind of like, that's interesting.
[00:10:38] And what made it more interesting is he owned the firm. It's like, could you, you're like, you're like, wow. This is what I'm seeing as a guy in my mid twenties. And I'm like, yeah, hey. This path to success this ladder that we climb when you get to the top Not only is it leaning against the long raw wall, [00:11:00] but you're like, this is miserable.
[00:11:02] This is horrible Why am I here? And I thought there has to be more to life So my heart and you know what just because you're in ministry doesn't mean you're exempt from it after you do your campus you're kind of like And now what? Or, you know, you hit your, your downloads and your podcast. It's like, you know, 10 million, 20 million, a hundred million downloads.
[00:11:22] And you're like, and what else? These are real. I think unexamined motivations drive you until they destroy you. And so one of the questions I'm obsessed with is what are my motivations? Why am I doing what I do? Because if you're listening to a podcast like this, you're addicted to the numbers. You care about performance, you care about success, but what is driving that?
[00:11:46] And I've seen that unarticulated, unrealized drive destroy a lot of leaders. And I'm very interested in preventing that in my own life, as you guys are, seeing that prevented in a lot of [00:12:00] people's lives.
[00:12:00] Michael: In Didn't See It Coming, you talk about cynicism, that's a challenge that many leaders face. And I have definitely noticed that, and particularly for people in ministry, but also just for professionals in general.
[00:12:14] I don't care if you're doctors, dentists. Lawyers, financial advisors, it affects everybody. But what are some of the early signs of cynicism? And how do you combat it? Because I, I feel like a lot of people that are deep into cynicism are not self aware about it.
[00:12:32] Carey: You know, the thing that I've been able to trace out is that cynicism is, is related to knowledge.
[00:12:37] If you really think about it, unless you come from a really traumatic background, most of us have reasonably happy childhoods, good memories. I was a pretty happy go lucky kid. And I look back on that and it's like, why is it that we're so happy when we're young or just starting out or in the early phase of our career?
[00:12:53] And the answer is because we're kind of stupid. We didn't know anything, right? It's like all optimism [00:13:00] and everything's wonderful. And mom and dad are going to work it out and I'm going to make partner or I'm going to own the firm one day or I'm going to, you know, so we're in the idealistic phase of our life.
[00:13:10] And that lasts It lasts until, you know, again, unless you have a really exceptionally difficult story, it lasts until your 20s, sometimes your 30s. And then you accumulate knowledge. And as you accumulate knowledge, you know, there's an ancient text that says with much wisdom comes much sorrow, with much knowledge comes much sadness.
[00:13:28] And I think it's true because if you think about, think about hiring for a minute. If you're going to hire someone, your first hires are like, we're building the dream team. We're going to crush it. This is going to be the best team ever. And then you realize that of the eight people you hired, two of them are not working out and you got to let them go.
[00:13:44] And one sort of so so, but probably not that great. And then you give it five years and someone betrays you and you're like, Oh, and then you're like, okay, well I got it wrong the first time. I'm going to go back. I'm going to hire better people. Round two, you hire better people and then it doesn't quite work [00:14:00] out the way you thought.
[00:14:00] And at round three, you find yourself sitting at a job interview. I'm interviewing you, Michael, and I'm going, I wonder how long until Michael leaves. And you're thinking that in the job interview, now what's changed? Well, you got a couple of laps, you got a couple of reps, and you realize, this doesn't always work out the way I thought it would.
[00:14:19] And that's true with clients, that's true with team, that's true with customers, that's true with congregations, it's true with, with everybody you meet. And so you run into that situation again and again and cynicism age and cynicism are frequent companions And one thing that's made this much more complicated Is access to 24 7 news way beyond cable every time you touch your phone I mean You know, I was talking with sharon mcmahon Sharon says so on instagram a few times over the last few years and bad news is a big business It's a model That broadcast media uses, but also hate actually gets rewarded [00:15:00] on the internet.
[00:15:01] So the more outrageous I can be, the more difficult I can be. So you combine all of that, the steady diet of anger and cynicism, plus your own personal experiences, You've got kids, you know, they turn out to be great, but it's got its frustrations and Megan You're in the teenage years right now or just coming out and some and I found those really challenging years because you're doing your best and sometimes you're met with grunts and You know, eventually they get out of it My kids are 32 and 28 now and I have the privilege of working with my 28 year old and it's a lot better But I gotta tell you like it's tough out there You And the second part of your question, so how do you guard against that?
[00:15:43] I think you got to make a decision. I'm going to trust again. I'm going to hope again. I'm going to believe again. I think it's a decision, but then the hack that's really, really helped me. And I want to do more research into this. I'd like to write a book on this at some point, because I think it's a battle.
[00:15:57] And for me, I'm not coming at you as somebody with all the [00:16:00] answers. It is a daily battle. I read the news too. I get burned and disappointed as well. And I get frustrated and I'm like, Oh, there it is. Again, I'm growing cynical. One of my favorite things to do is my podcast, and when I'm doing a podcast interview, I want to be the student.
[00:16:18] I don't want to come in as the teacher. I want to come in as the student. So win for me is if the guest talks 95 percent of the time, 98 percent of the time, and I just ask more questions. And the more curious I am about something, even if I don't like something, like I don't like what someone's saying online.
[00:16:36] Well, why would they say that? What would be true in their life? If I can start asking questions and I can be a curious person, because one of the correlations I noticed as I was doing an initial study of this is cynical people are never curious and curious people are never cynical. They seem to be mutually exclusive.
[00:16:55] So if I can stay curious, then maybe I can avoid cynicism. [00:17:00] And if I find myself landing on the cynical side, then I got to get back to curiosity and ask more questions.
[00:17:07] Michael: That's such a great hack, particularly when you're dealing with people that have a political viewpoint that's different than yours.
[00:17:14] Because that conversation usually starts from cynicism and it's people talking over the top of each other and nobody's really listening. But if you can get curious and assume positive intent on the part of the other person, like they're not really out to destroy the country or really out to have this negative impact.
[00:17:34] And, you know, I think most of the time that's true. They're doing what they. think is right, but to just be curious, because you might learn something and you might learn we're not as far apart as we thought.
[00:17:45] Carey: I completely agree with that. And I have strong views on those issues as well as most of the people listening to this show would.
[00:17:52] But the reality is when I really, if I can get through the humanity on the other person, right, if I can, if I can look past [00:18:00] their positions and actually see who they are and hear their story, maybe if I had their story, I would have exactly the same views. Maybe if I grew up and I had those experiences and I'd been burned, it's empathy.
[00:18:14] Michael: We're
[00:18:14] Carey: losing the ability to empathize with each other. We have weaponized differences, and that is very concerning. And so, you know, I think for those of us in leadership, we have to be the ones who model away for other people. And if you think about the people that you're leading, if they see you being curious, if they see you empathizing, if they see you paying attention to what's underneath the positions and to look for mutual or common interests, as William Ury would frame the situation.
[00:18:44] You know, you're looking for interests, not positions to say, well, we both believe in this country. Isn't that true? Yeah, you're not out to destroy this country. You both probably want some more money in your bank, not less money in your bank. Yeah, that's probably true. You probably want some freedom and security.
[00:18:59] Yeah, we probably [00:19:00] want freedom and security. All right. So we're not that different, are we? Your method to getting there might be different than mine, but if you can focus on those common interests. And I do think. Our politics is broken. And I think a generation ago, politicians did a better job of focusing on those mutual interests and the differences were the path that were going to get us there.
[00:19:21] And now it's all weaponized, et cetera, et cetera. So the system is broken, but I think criticizing the system is going to break it even more. I think we need people who will, who will show us a different way, who will ask the question behind the question and look for the common points that we can agree on.
[00:19:38] Megan: You know, it's so interesting as you're talking about cynicism because I keep thinking about the idea of vulnerability that cynicism is in many ways a self protective strategy. It's a way of defending yourself. against the things like disappointment and disillusionment and pain and suffering and think, you know, it's a way to protect yourself.
[00:19:58] It's kind of like an armor that [00:20:00] we put on. And I think as adults, the, the older we get, the more of, as you said, the more life we kind of have under our belt and the things we've experienced, the more we have to be intentional. about not unconsciously armoring up all the time, you know, because if we're armored up, we also can experience the great parts of life, you know, the joy, the love, the fulfillment, the calling, like those all come from our heart.
[00:20:24] And if our heart is so defended and self protected, then we don't have access. That's
[00:20:29] Carey: such a good insight, Megan. I've seen that so often. I've seen it myself. I've seen it in others. That cynicism is a defense. That underneath every cynic is a broken heart. And somewhere along the way, like think about it relationally, right?
[00:20:43] How does someone get to the point where they say all men are, or all women are? Right? You've heard that. You've heard people say that. I'm sure touching your relationship. All women are fill in the blanks. All men are fill in the blanks when you really drill down on that story. That is a [00:21:00] protective defense mechanism because their heart got broken.
[00:21:03] Not once, not twice, but probably 345 times and cynics. I had a friend who passed away recently. Too young. Tony Morgan. You probably know him. Fantastic person. And Tony and I were talking years ago and he said, I don't want to be a member of the old man's club that gets together every Tuesday and talks about what's wrong with the world.
[00:21:26] And I thought, you know, that's true because eventually you feel passed over, you feel left behind and what's your, your job? You're criticizing now. You're criticizing everybody and everything. And I think underneath that is a broken heart. And so what I have to do is when I find myself with my heart broken, which it does get broken personally in leadership, you know, when my ideas get shot down is to look at that and go, all right, I'm hurting.
[00:21:53] And that's not easy for me to do as a guy, as in any, as a former lawyer, that is [00:22:00] not my natural language. And then when I get to that, I kind of grieve that loss. And say, yeah, but I'm going to stay curious. I'm going to hope again. I'm going to trust again. I'm going to believe again. I'm going to be one of those people.
[00:22:13] My cynicism tends to subside for a season. I like that. It's
[00:22:17] Megan: great.
[00:22:25] Michael: You talk a lot about burnout and I'm just curious, what's the relationship between burnout and burnout? Burnout and cynicism. It's some
[00:22:31] Carey: kind of loop. I don't know 100 percent what the relationship is, but they're frequent companions, just like age and cynicism are. And if you're burned out, burnout happens a couple ways.
[00:22:44] I think about burnout that we would all recognize as burnout from not being able to get out of bed, to just being so cynical and so jaded and so tired and non productive. You're not producing. You took time off and it's not refueling you, et cetera, et [00:23:00] cetera. So that's like classic burnout where everybody would tap you on the shoulder and go, Carrie, you're, you're burned out.
[00:23:06] And you go see your doctor and he's like, yeah, it looks like burnout. There's another kind of burnout that I've been thinking about a lot over the last few years. And I call it mid grade burnout. And that's when the functions of life continue, but the joy of life is gone. So you got out of bed, and you went to work, and you're producing, maybe not at an A plus level, but let's say a B plus or an A minus, because you're good at what you do, and you're at the kids games, but your heart isn't there, and your mind is somewhere else, and you've got date night with your spouse, if you're connected with someone, and you're sort of there, but not really, and you're going through the motions.
[00:23:41] And as I talk to leaders around the world about burnout, a lot of people can identify with I'm flat on my back and exhausted and I need some help or some medication or I need rehab or something to get me out of this funk. But the lights go on when I talk about mid grade burnout. And I don't believe that was the [00:24:00] way we were created to live.
[00:24:02] Some signs of like a low grade burnout are that you're now cynical. You look at your 22 year old self and your 32 or 42 year old self, and you're like, I don't recognize me anymore. Like I'm cynical, I'm jaded, I'm hurt, I'm tough, I've got a thick skin. I don't believe anything anymore from people. To be honest, I'm phoning it in with my family.
[00:24:26] I'm not getting a divorce, but I'm not really engaged relationally. My friendships are kind of on autopilot. I don't feel anything anymore. I think one of the the signs of burnout at a full level or a mid grade level is that you have good muscle memory. So somebody tells you, I just got diagnosed with cancer.
[00:24:46] I'm actually having breakfast with somebody tomorrow who just got diagnosed with cancer. And when he called me last week, I cried with him on the phone and I'm like, and these are two guys who don't cry together, you know, two guys in their fifties [00:25:00] who don't cry together. I thought that's a good sign.
[00:25:02] Like I felt that I felt that in seasons of my life where I was probably dipping into mid grade burnout or I was in full out burnout where I would have known exactly what to say and exactly how to intone my voice to appear empathetic. But on the inside, even though I cared theoretically, I couldn't feel the emotion.
[00:25:23] And that's true for the sad parts of life, but, you know, your kid wins a soccer game, you're supposed to be really happy, scored the winning goal, and you're like, yeah, way to go. But you don't feel it. And that numbness, that idea that that position of feeling numb most days is a big warning sign. And those are some signs of burnout that people should pay attention to.
[00:25:45] Megan: This is so helpful because when we're talking about the double win, you're not getting the double win if you're burnt out. Like those are mutually exclusive places, you know, and I think having the ability to have some diagnostic criteria for that, [00:26:00] that our listeners and even us, you know, that we, that we're able to go, Oh yeah.
[00:26:05] That's what's going on. You know, maybe it's not as acute as the full blown version, but you know, the last several years in North America have been pretty intense, you know, all over the world, actually with COVID, you know, but I think there's a lot of stressors and a lot of contributors to that. I'm curious to know, Carrie, what do you think drives that mid grade burnout?
[00:26:27] Like what's upstream from the numbness from the apathy? What, what's upstream that's causing that?
[00:26:34] Carey: I have a quote that hangs on the wall just outside my office. It's from Socrates and it's the unexamined life is not worth living. And I think that is upstream from life happens to us. And you guys are both so great at helping people see the issues under the issues.
[00:26:51] So you're, you're helping leaders examine their life. And that's what I want to do with my life as well. But when you don't, you get caught up. [00:27:00] In the torrent and I think one of the reasons it's gotten worse like burnout was a term that was actually created in the 1970s as a label that they could put on what was happening to doctors when doctors go through their residency It's brutal.
[00:27:15] You're working 18 20 hour days. You get no sleep You're sleeping in a broom closet and then you're back on shift again, and these doctors were not functioning at normal levels, like at very suboptimal levels after their residency or internship, and they diagnosed the term burnout. And then it became a professional term.
[00:27:34] Lawyers burn out, accountants burn out, engineers burn out. Then it became a life term where retired people are burning out. Toddlers are burning out and everybody, everybody's right. So it's creeped a little bit over the last 50 years appropriately. So what's changed Upstream, the amount of relationships that we have to manage on a [00:28:00] daily basis, uh, Robin Dunbar, the British psychologist, wrote a great book called How Many Friends Can One Person Have?
[00:28:07] And he makes a very compelling argument that for millennia, we lived in small communities of 200 people. So if you think about your place in Franklin, you know, imagine it was 200 people. You go to the butcher, you go to the baker, you know, the blacksmith, you know, the cobbler, because you need new shoes.
[00:28:26] And that's a reasonable span of care. If you look at how armies were designed right back to the way the Romans did their armies, it 200 people because 200 people became unmanageable. So, you look at it, we move to cities, we become very dense in our populations, and then our phones arrive, and suddenly we have 500 followers, 50, 000 followers, 5, 000 friends, and our brains break.
[00:28:53] We're not designed for that. You know, I'm old enough in the nineties to remember when I had one inbox, and sometimes [00:29:00] on my first iteration of email you'd get five emails in a day. And that was a big day. Uh, you know, I counted it up a few years ago. The
[00:29:06] Megan: glory days .
[00:29:08] Carey: Yeah, exactly. I now have 17 inboxes between all of the wow.
[00:29:14] Social media apps and different email addresses. I have 17 inboxes. How do you keep up with that? And the answer is. You don't. You weren't designed to. So upstream is we're not taking time to examine what's going on around us. Upstream is we're literally overwhelmed. We already talked about the news cycle and social media.
[00:29:35] We're inundated with too many relationships and we're overwhelmed, overworked, and overcommitted. And so I think that leads to a general breakdown in human functioning, at least human thriving. And so what we need to do is take that apart bit by bit. And try to figure it out. And I've got some practical things that have really helped over the years.
[00:29:56] And I've been able to help leaders with, but I think that is a small [00:30:00] list of what is upstream. There's more.
[00:30:01] Megan: Yeah. I'd love to know what some of those things are.
[00:30:03] Michael: I would too, especially around saying no, because one of the challenges I have as a recovering people pleaser is that my default is to say yes.
[00:30:13] If somebody needs help, I want to be there to help them. And yet, you know, I've had to get almost calloused, you know, in a sense, because I, I realized that saying yes to something, I'm saying no to something else implicitly. I have like 21 immediate family members in Franklin where we live, right? This is
[00:30:33] Megan: what happens when you have five kids and they have five kids.
[00:30:36] It's like exponential math. Should
[00:30:37] Michael: have done the math a long time ago, Michael.
[00:30:39] Megan: Yeah, that's right. It's too late.
[00:30:41] Michael: And then I have friends maybe that don't have any kids or their kids don't live here and they kind of understand why we can't get together more. And I mean, it kind of that sandwich generation where my, both my parents are 90 years old.
[00:30:52] They're still alive. But they're requiring a lot. It's tough, but I, I think there are times when I feel really guilty about saying [00:31:00] no and I have to kind of psych myself up, but what are some of your practical tips for that kind of thing? Yeah,
[00:31:05] Carey: we, for thousands of years. operated in these small communities that were inherently relational and we are not made for the world as it is right now.
[00:31:14] And you can see that Jonathan Heights work on the anxious generation, what's happening to Gen Z and Gen Alpha is like very ground shaking. So what do you do about it? Well, back to Dunbar, he talks about prioritizing your relationships. And I find this very helpful. And he says, basically we all have the capacity for three to five deep friendships.
[00:31:37] Now, most people, because they're so overwhelmed by the hundreds, thousands of people, or even people running a company, it's like, I deal with people all day, okay? I don't want to deal with people in my off life. I have 500 employees. I don't want to deal with people when I'm at home. And as a result, there's nobody in that three to five, Close relationships like friendship is dying.
[00:31:59] People are [00:32:00] lonely and that is a problem because you were designed for close intimate Relationship that has a spiritual component physical component an emotional a relational component It is essential to thriving as a human being a lot of people and when I talked to Henry Cloud about this You know Henry Cloud is and your dog doesn't count and your wife doesn't count.
[00:32:19] Okay Because it's like well, I have my dog and I have my wife. It's like no Okay, your wife's a different who those three to five and I have been working on that very intensely over the last five years because after 25 years of ministry with thousands of people, I realized I was in danger of not having three to five really close personal relationships.
[00:32:41] These are people with, I've heard it phrased refrigerator rights, people who can just show up to your house unannounced, walk in, put your head down on your counter and open the refrigerator and start taking stuff like a teenager. Do you have anyone in that category? I love that. You need three to five.
[00:32:58] That's it. If you have three [00:33:00] you're relationally rich. If you have five, fantastic, but you can't have more than that. Then he says there's like seven to 15. That you know pretty well. You'll see them at summer barbecues. You'll see them at Christmas. You'll see them maybe once a month. You're texting or connecting with them.
[00:33:16] That's great. Then there is maybe the 150 people that you would send. If you send Christmas cards, you send Christmas cards to you, catch up with them in a Facebook group. You see them at some family reunion or work function. They're, they're friends and colleagues. Another very helpful framing, the difference between real friends and deal friends.
[00:33:35] Megan: Yeah,
[00:33:36] Carey: I love that distinction. I got a buddy, Rob. He's a pediatrician. He's great. I was helping him pull his boat out last weekend. We were at their place. We went for dinner. He sent me a book proposal he's working on. So there's one way I might be marginally useful in his life, but we're basically essentially useless to each other because I can't use him to grow my podcast or to architect my next course that I'm going to do.
[00:33:59] And I'm [00:34:00] certainly not helping him in his medical practice. I promise you that I've got nothing to contribute there. But we're great friends. And you need three to five of those. So to your point, Michael, those three to five should have instant access to you. Those are the people you get back to right away.
[00:34:15] Those are the people that that's unlimited and you can figure out what to do with your family. But then, you know, there are other people that you've got to start prioritizing. And, uh, I'm, I'm thinking a lot these days in terms of saying no. So that's a big framing, because I, I really think the unexamined life is not worth living.
[00:34:33] So I try to think these things through to first principles. And then let's get to the practical application. Categorical decisions are your best friends. So when I came out on the other side of burnout. I realized there are really three zones in any day. There's a green zone, a red zone and yellow zone green zone.
[00:34:52] You got three to five of those hours where you're at your best. You're feeling amazing. You know, you're excited if you're working on a new article, you're writing, the [00:35:00] words are flowing, you're in flow. It's great for morning people. I know you guys are morning people that happens in the morning, right? You love it.
[00:35:08] It's great. But then there's a red zone. For me, it's four to six in the afternoon, where I basically turn into a zombie. I have three brain cells left. I'm functionally useless, and I need a nap, or caffeine, or all of the above. Most of us have that if you're a morning person after lunch, or before dinner, or sometime in the afternoon.
[00:35:28] Night owls would have their green zone in the evening or later in the day, and maybe their red zone is first thing in the morning when they wake up for two hours. They can't function. That's fine. And then yellow is everything in between. Yellow is very productive. It's just not your best. So what I realized in terms of categorical decisions, when I broke my day down into that, it's like, so what am I?
[00:35:49] At the time I was a preacher. It's like, if that sermon isn't done, we're all in big trouble and it better be good. So, um, I had to write that in my green zone because what would happen is I would [00:36:00] book breakfast meetings in my green zone and you'd meet at the restaurant at 7am and it goes till 8. 30, not 8 like you said it would, and then you stop by a drive thru and grab a coffee, you walk into the office, people are chatting with you, it's 9 o'clock before you sit down and look at your screen and then you have 5 texts and 17 emails.
[00:36:20] And you're like, okay, and next thing you know, it's lunch. I just burned through the best hours of my day. So one of the categorical decisions I made is no more breakfast meetings. Now there are rare exceptions. I'm meeting with a guy. I made the same decision. Diagnosed with one decision. So if you're like, can you meet for breakfast unless I'm in a very atypical week?
[00:36:38] The answer is no, I can't, but I can do coffee at two o'clock or I can do coffee at four o'clock. Or what do you want to do? You want to go for a walk later in the day? I'll do that. So that's an example of a categorical decision. Another one would be the type of event you're doing. We're all speakers here, right?
[00:36:55] So basically I do leadership events. I'm a preacher, but I don't preach [00:37:00] on weekends because there are leaders in the crowd, but I'm basically preaching to people. I would rather speak to 100 leaders than 1000 people. So right off the bat, my team and I know if I get a speaking request to speak to people, not leaders, it's probably going to be a no.
[00:37:14] And then there are particular, I'll drill down even more. So you pre establish criteria that say this is probably yes or probably a no. Another decision I made as a pastor, because as your church grows, your weekends and evenings disappear because people are getting married and people die and you have to do weddings and funerals.
[00:37:33] So I just decided and it's very counterintuitive. A lot of these decisions are going to be counterintuitive because nobody else is doing them. I don't do weddings anymore. I just don't do weddings. And that was a hard message for a lot of people. Now, do I make exceptions? Yeah. If you've been my assistant for 10 years and you're getting married, I'll probably do your wedding.
[00:37:53] If you're related to me, I'll do your wedding. That's what I'll do. If you're part of the inner circle here at [00:38:00] the church, like an elder or a key staff member, I'll do your funeral. Beyond that, the answer is probably no. And we have lots of people who can serve you and lots of people who can do weddings.
[00:38:09] And that rule has held up for over a decade. I do about one wedding a year and one funeral a year. That's it.
[00:38:16] Michael: Do you explain that to your congregation so that they understand what the rules of engagement are and so that they don't get upset when they see you doing a wedding? Yep. Yeah, so that they understand the rubric that's kind of behind that.
[00:38:29] Carey: Exactly. I think you have to. And we explain to our elders and to our team, Hey, moving forward, I'm not going to be doing weddings. And here's why. And then when people would inquire, if you have the privilege, a lot of people listening to this would, of having an assistant, if you have a good one, and I've been blessed with some great ones, they probably have the gift of empathy.
[00:38:48] And Carrie would love to do your weddings. However, his policy is that he only does it for staff or for close families. So I'm really sorry about that. And he's sorry about that, [00:39:00] but here are five people who we recommend for weddings who can perform your wedding. Or here are five people who can do the funeral.
[00:39:07] I love that. They would be excellent at it. And they're honestly, they're better at it than Kerry is. So you're going to love them. And most people, there's a few people that are going to be upset that I didn't do it, but in most cases, I'm the only pastor they know. And so it's like, you'll do. And if we give them five other options, 98 percent of the time, they're pretty good with that.
[00:39:26] And if not, I can have a personal conversation and say, look, I would love to do your wedding. It's just, I think you can understand that then all my weekends are gone and my time with my family is gone. And I really want to prioritize that in this season. I love that.
[00:39:47] Megan: Okay. So I want to play a little game. What is the hardest thing for you to say no to right now that really makes a negative impact on your personal margin? You know, not just something that like is a one off, but like [00:40:00] the thing that is sabotaging your margin. Cause I know you're struggling with this right now.
[00:40:04] And I would like to get Carrie's input and coaching for you on that. Cause I think even though you're a coach, even though you teach this stuff, it is so hard. To do this for yourself. And sometimes the outside input can be really helpful. So this is an intervention.
[00:40:18] Carey: Oh, wow. Here we go. The end of the double win podcast.
[00:40:23] You're
[00:40:23] Michael: seeing it live right now. Let me see. I think there's probably a couple different categories. One is it's really hard to say no to my team when they asked me to do certain things. Particularly around promotion, you know, because I feel like just to be honest, it's related to revenue. And so that if I don't do it, we're going to get a lesser result than we would like.
[00:40:50] Megan: Is there something in particular that you're thinking of?
[00:40:54] Michael: Well, first of all, I hate social media.
[00:40:56] Megan: Yeah.
[00:40:57] Michael: So thankfully I'm not doing that anymore and I think [00:41:00] everybody's just giving up on me. So that's good.
[00:41:02] Megan: We both completely stink at social media. Like, just fire us.
[00:41:06] Michael: I can get really great at it for 30 days and then I flame out.
[00:41:09] Megan: Yeah.
[00:41:10] Michael: I would think the biggest thing is people that are, they're more than acquaintances, Carrie. But they're not my best friends. But like I got a text message from a guy yesterday and he said, Hey, I got a time sensitive matter that I really need your counsel on.
[00:41:22] Megan: Like somebody from church, somebody from your neighborhood, somebody that you're not, you can't just blow off and they're going to go away forever.
[00:41:29] You're going to see him on Sunday. You're going to see him on your walk.
[00:41:31] Michael: That's right.
[00:41:32] Megan: Yeah.
[00:41:33] Carey: Okay.
[00:41:34] Megan: Okay, Dr. Carey, tell us.
[00:41:36] Carey: No, let's start with um, filming the ads you don't want to film. I can totally empathize with that because I look at my Asana, we use Asana, and there are things in there that I'm like, I don't really want to do that.
[00:41:48] And I literally had this conversation with my team last week and I was doing a lot of, hey, redo this article and shoot this video on [00:42:00] XYZ. And my problem is if my heart isn't in it. Everybody can tell and having started this company from scratch. It was whatever idea. I thought i'm very bought into my ideas I don't know about you.
[00:42:11] I'm very bought into my idea I am not quite as bought into sometimes other people's ideas. But as you say If you don't raise revenue, it's like last one out, turn off the lights, like it's not going to happen. So we had a really good conversation and we did a trade off. It's like, you can say whatever you want, you don't have to follow the script.
[00:42:32] Just do the CTA here. And I'm like, okay, that made that more interesting to me. Because there is like, if you're doing too much, sure, you can be like, well, what happens if we cut this from five of these a month, Because I think I've got the appetite for two, but not five. And what if I can make the script that it sounded more like me?
[00:42:52] And then we had a really interesting conversation because I realized I am writing less now. Like the good news is the company in our [00:43:00] operations is beautiful and automated. The bad news is I've written less than I normally would write. Since like 40 years ago. I was writing papers in university. I was writing papers in high school, and now I'm hardly writing anymore, and I'm at my best when I'm writing.
[00:43:14] So I negotiated with my team and I said, I'll do your work, but let me write stuff. And they're like, well, where are we gonna publish it? I'm like, I don't care. Just put it out on the internet and don't index it. I need to write because if I write, I know what I think. So we negotiated that so that, because you're right, Michael, if your job becomes not fun for you, you're not gonna want to do it.
[00:43:34] Is that fair? That's right. That's the key for a lot of us who are leaders is we get out of the fun stage, as Les McKeown would call it. And then we're like, we're into predictable success, but we don't like the structure in the systems. And so I think it's a constant negotiation. As to your friend who texted you yesterday, let's drill down on that a little bit more.
[00:43:53] Did you follow up? Did you have the conversation?
[00:43:56] Michael: I did. I said, well, as a matter of fact, I'm available now. Why don't you just call me? [00:44:00] Excellent. And he did. And then 45 minutes later, right?
[00:44:03] Carey: Was it an emergency? No. 90 percent of emergencies are non emergencies. Somebody texts me and says, you know, when I was a pastor, my marriage is falling apart.
[00:44:14] I need to see you today. It's like, wait, you had a perfectly good marriage at 6am and suddenly it just fell apart. And now it's one o'clock and you need to see me today. I finally saw through the. Smokescreen because what that meant and I mean you guys know this you teach this stuff, right? What happens then when your kids were young in particular when when the girls were young Michael, you're like, all right Sorry girls can't be at your game tonight.
[00:44:37] Sorry can't be home for supper Gail I gotta go. I gotta fix this couple's marriage. Meanwhile, your own is like not doing well So 95 percent of it wasn't an emergency Then I would say to someone like that, Hey, I'm really sorry. You're going through something right now. Your answer to deal with it right now is a great one.
[00:44:55] And I'll come back to that. The other thing you can say is I can talk about it tomorrow at three o'clock [00:45:00] or Friday at 10 AM, which one works best for you. So all of a sudden you schedule it for a time that is convenient to you because messages are always sent at the convenience of the sender, right? If I email you, It was a convenient time for me to email you.
[00:45:17] I have no idea whether it was a convenient time for you to receive that email. The second thing you could do is you can pick up the phone and say, I got time to talk right now. And then when he picks up, you can say, perfect timing, man. I got 10 minutes. What's on your mind? Yeah. Just throw in a time marker.
[00:45:33] And that, that can really help because they're going to give you less of the backstory and more of the presenting issue. The other thing, which is fine, is you just say, I am so slammed this week. I'm sorry. I don't have time for it. If it's church related, I'll see you Sunday. You want to catch five minutes in the lobby?
[00:45:52] Michael: Yeah.
[00:45:52] Megan: That's a good idea. I have
[00:45:53] Michael: started to deal with church stuff like that because I'm there already. Yep. And I just hate seeing a cluttered [00:46:00] calendar. And I think the reason I took that call last night is that if I were to schedule it, it'd be one more thing on my calendar that I would dread, where it's just like, I'm gonna eat the frog now and be done with it.
[00:46:10] Megan: What if you want to, though, not do this? Like, I want to be available to my family and my closest friends for the 9 1 1 calls, but I don't want to get together with somebody to pick my brain. I don't want to get together with somebody who has a marriage that's struggling. Like, that's just not where I feel called.
[00:46:26] Like, there are other avenues for that. How do you categorically say no to that?
[00:46:29] Carey: You know, you can do that. So there's two approaches you can take. One means you lose a lot of friends overnight. And you just draw a line. And you're like,
[00:46:39] Megan: yes, great.
[00:46:42] Carey: People pleaser and Mike is going to be like, oh, but you're just like, yeah, I'm not able to take that call.
[00:46:48] I'm so sorry. The other thing you can do is you can redirect. and say, you know what? I'm taking fewer of those calls these days. Maybe you can try Pastor X or Person Y. [00:47:00] Then that's another way of eventually losing. Try Megan. I'm not the best person to answer. Megan never
[00:47:04] Megan: answers her phone. It's so weird.
[00:47:06] Carey: Yeah. The third is to gradually decelerate. Let's say it came in by email. This happened to be a phone call. Often the people who are most desperate will send you a long email, often without any spaces and some of it in all caps. The best, the best answer, if it requires a response, they don't all require a response, but if it's someone you know, is to answer a long email with a short response.
[00:47:32] And what happens over time, it's a bit of a dance, is they realize, oh, Michael's not gonna, you know, Give me the seven page trope. I was hoping for he's gonna give me quick advice. Maybe he's not the best person to advise me or maybe I should look elsewhere or maybe this wasn't such a big situation. So the people who are more relationally intelligent will pick up on that and the good ones will dance with you.
[00:47:58] It's like, you know what? That was [00:48:00] too much for you. I'm sorry. I kind of they'll get it after a while. The others will just give up because yeah. It's like I didn't get what I wanted. The other thing, Michael, you mentioned this a couple of times and I'm with you. I hate a cluttered calendar. All of us have.
[00:48:16] a particular meeting tolerance. So I'm going to give you mine. This is descriptive, not prescriptive. If I have fewer than 10 meetings and a meeting includes a haircut, which I got yesterday, I had to redefine this. Thank you. Thank you. But you know, whether it's like I got to get my tires changed or, you know, I got to get a haircut or I have to see the dentist that counts as a meeting.
[00:48:38] You're like, wait, that's not work related. No, but it impacts my mood. It's like I got too much to do. And my biggest value is when I'm spending about 60 to 70 percent of my week. Working on new content, solving problems, thinking time. Me too. That's when I'm at my best. So basically, I've trained my team to know if I have [00:49:00] more than 15 appointments in a week, my calendar is full.
[00:49:04] So when you look at my calendar, those can be 15 minute meetings, they can be hour long meetings, but if there's more than 15, that week is booked. It's done. So they go in, they count it up and go, I'm sorry, Kerry hasn't got any time available next week, but we can book you in December. Blah, blah, blah. So I don't know what your number would be, but this is where self awareness becomes such a great thing.
[00:49:28] Just look at your, you can look back over your calendar over the last two months and go, Oh, that was such a stressful week. I was flying here and then I was there. And then I had these meetings and I'd take that call from the airport. And then I did the webinar from a hotel room and then that was a bad week.
[00:49:43] But then there are other weeks that you're like, that was an amazing week. And then you'll start to see the number. And gold experiment. And then for me, if it's less than 10, I'm bored and I start to self destruct and I need a little bit of pressure. Like I better get this done because [00:50:00] I'm meeting at one o'clock.
[00:50:01] I need a little bit of pressure. So your number could be different, but that has been so helpful. That's hugely helpful.
[00:50:08] Megan: I feel like on my writing days, so I write on Wednesdays, I have a weekly newsletter that I write. I adjust my morning ritual, I always go for a walk though because that is like my thinking time and I find that I have really good ideas on my walk and I'm usually like writing things down or dictating things into my notes app, so that's helpful for me.
[00:50:27] I think in a perfect world, I would start working at like seven in the morning and I'd be done even earlier than I am, you know, I just move my whole day up and then I'd be done at like, you know, one o'clock or something and then have a couple hours before the kids came home. The problem is seven o'clock in our house is everybody's getting out the door to school.
[00:50:44] We're checking folders, we're finding football equipment, you know, we're making lunches. And so I don't feel like in this season of my life. unless I literally exited the building, that that would be very, very realistic. So, but I do think that's how I'm [00:51:00] wired. And I think in a, in a future stage of life.
[00:51:03] That might be something that I try to accommodate because I love that time.
[00:51:06] Carey: Megan, you, you said something, a few things I want to just underscore, because Michael and I are at the same stage of life where our kids are grown and launched and not needy. You know what I mean? Like we're very fortunate that way.
[00:51:17] Megan: Nobody needs you to make breakfast for them anymore.
[00:51:20] Carey: Exactly. You can come over and make breakfast for Megan's kids, Michael. That's what you can do. Okay. That's
[00:51:25] Megan: right. In the morning. That's how I'm going to get my 7am time.
[00:51:27] Carey: But you talked about walking before writing. There is brain science behind that that shows that there is a very strong connection between creativity and walking.
[00:51:36] I think it was
[00:51:37] Michael: Nietzsche
[00:51:37] Carey: or someone, maybe it was Soren Kierkegaard, who said there is no thinking without walking. And I think that's true. Second thing, adjust your expectations according to the season of life. I could not have the morning routine expanded to an hour plus when my kids were young and they were at home, but my kids aren't young and they're not at home.
[00:51:59] So now I [00:52:00] have the luxury of time. Which actually, you know, the ability to do anything is also permission to do nothing. So you have to be careful about that because you can just lose the discipline that the immediacy creates. And then the third thing you said, that's really important, I think is Wednesday is my writing day.
[00:52:15] If you decide that every day is your writing day, You are probably not going to be as productive if you know I've got one bullet to fire here and it's Wednesday Yep, there's wisdom to that. Constraints actually increase productivity and the constraint of picking a day for whatever reason Wednesday works in your calendar and I've been thinking every day is a writing day and you reminded me that no if I decide that Monday, Wednesday, and Thursday are writing days, I will take those days more seriously.
[00:52:45] So yeah, constraints are a good thing. Really, really great principles there.
[00:52:48] Megan: Yeah, it really helps me because I know that my team is waiting on that newsletter and I know like this week we have a retreat that we're leading tomorrow and Saturday actually we rarely do anything on the weekends, but in this case [00:53:00] we we are and if I don't, if I didn't get it done yesterday, so today's Thursday when we're recording this, there's going to be no newsletter.
[00:53:07] So it's like I've got a deliverable. at the end of the day and I've got to go pick up my daughter from school, the end, you know, and that, that is really helpful because I guarantee you, I could take three days to write that otherwise. Okay. I cannot believe that we are out of time and we have to ask our three questions because I feel like we could just keep going.
[00:53:22] We could have that intervention after intervention.
[00:53:25] Carey: It's been fun, man. It's been great. It's been so
[00:53:27] Megan: much fun. It's so fun. Okay. So Carrie, we have three questions that we ask all of our guests about the double win winning at work and succeeding at life. So it's kind of like a lightning round. Are you game to play with us?
[00:53:39] Carey: I'll be brief.
[00:53:39] Megan: Okay. Um, so the first one is what is your biggest obstacle in this season of your life to getting the double win for yourself?
[00:53:47] Carey: Probably the lack of time constraints that an empty. Nest creates you need to create false constraints You said I have to pick up my daughter at three that I remember that [00:54:00] season that was good Because I had to get it done and I talked to a mutual friend I won't name him, but when his youngest daughter left home Mike, how you doing?
[00:54:12] And he leads a huge church in the South and he goes, I've never worked more hours in my life. And this is a guy who wrote a book about balancing work and life that sold a bajillion copies. And I find myself in that same thing. Permission to do anything is permission to do nothing. And so it's that self constraint of making sure that I get my work done so it doesn't leak into the weekend.
[00:54:36] It doesn't leak into date night. And having the lack of constraints. Makes that just as challenging as having constraints.
[00:54:43] Megan: That's so interesting. I can't even quite conceive of that idea, but I'm excited to struggle with it.
[00:54:50] Carey: Sorry to tease you.
[00:54:52] Michael: I get it. I struggle with that too.
[00:54:54] Megan: Yeah.
[00:54:54] Michael: Okay, second question.
[00:54:56] How do you personally know When you've got the double win, what are the [00:55:00] indicators?
[00:55:00] Carey: My marriage, a hundred percent my marriage, because if I struggle, I'm probably going to be quote successful professionally. It's, it's gone well for the last 30 years and our company's in a really good season. Your PNL and your numbers tell you an awful lot about whether you're hitting the wind, but it's the non tangibles.
[00:55:19] It's the closeness. It's the connection that I feel with my wife. So if, if my marriage and those key three to five relationships are not going well, and she'll tell me I mean, we've, we've had seasons in our marriage. So I really look at the quality, not just the quantity of time. Hey, we had a date night.
[00:55:39] Hey, we did this. Hey, we went on a vacation. Like you can tick all the boxes, but still be miles apart. So it's that intimacy. It's that closeness. It's that delight in each other. That tells me I'm winning at home. And I remind myself all the time, if you're winning at work and losing at home, you're losing.
[00:55:55] So I agree with your premise. Amen to that.
[00:55:57] Megan: Amen. Yeah. All right. Last [00:56:00] question. What is one ritual or routine though? Maybe we haven't talked about that helps you do what you do.
[00:56:05] Carey: That's a great question. So here's one that really helps me with my energy during the day. We talked about green, yellow, and red zone very briefly, but I learned this from Larry Osborne, maybe five years ago.
[00:56:16] No longer set an alarm. I was the 430 in the morning. Here goes the alarm up you know ready to go and what I found is that I was tired a lot during the day and So unless I have a flight to catch or a really critical early morning meeting 350 out of 365 days. I don't set an alarm and what that does it allows my body to to tell me when I'm ready to wake up.
[00:56:43] And that has been a real gift to the point where if we watch a movie at night or a TV show, I'm not falling asleep during the TV show at nine o'clock anymore. If we're doing a longer drive, two hours or more, I'm not pulling over going, honey, you drive, I'm dead here. So that has really made a [00:57:00] difference.
[00:57:00] And I think when applied with the other disciplines means I'm capable of producing my highest quality work.
[00:57:06] Michael: I do the same thing in prioritizing sleep. Like today, I normally get up at five. Okay. But the day I slept till 6 30, how part of it was, I wasn't feeling great yesterday and I got a bad night's sleep and I prioritize sleep over everything.
[00:57:19] Carrie, thank you so much. This has been so rich and everything I'd hoped. So thank you for spending this time with us and sharing your heart and your thinking and your hacks and your tips. And. Your advice. Well, it's been a joy
[00:57:32] Carey: for me. I appreciate and respect both of you so much and love the work that you're doing helping leaders.
[00:57:37] So it's been a privilege to be with you.
[00:57:49] Michael: Okay. That was a really fun interview and I can't believe it went as long as it did. And honestly, we had to force ourselves to cut it off.
[00:57:56] Megan: We did because I feel like we were rapidly approaching it being like an all [00:58:00] day coaching session, which as it turns out was just what we needed. You kind of turned
[00:58:04] Michael: the tables on me.
[00:58:05] Megan: I did.
[00:58:06] Michael: Which I appreciate.
[00:58:07] Megan: Yeah.
[00:58:07] Michael: Because Kerry's one of those people that I respect and admire, and I really value his coaching.
[00:58:13] Megan: Yeah.
[00:58:13] Michael: And I thought, I thought that was a good exchange.
[00:58:15] Megan: Well, I learned so much from that. I mean, I really was asking on your behalf, cause I knew this was something you were struggling with, but I learned so much, you know, just first of all, to me, the best part was him talking about how to categorically, you know, eliminate something from your calendar.
[00:58:33] That's a problem. I think that it gave me a lot of courage because I think sometimes we think about these things that we want to eliminate from our life and we get to the part where our brain says, but there's no way that could ever be possible without, you know, fill in the blank, something terrible happening.
[00:58:49] And we stop. And in reality, there might be a novel way of. Thinking about it that we just haven't thought yet that would avoid that. And I feel like that's what he gave us. And then the idea of how many meetings you can tolerate. [00:59:00] Oh
[00:59:00] Michael: my gosh. I think I'm very similar to him in that. Me too. I don't think I really can do more than 10 or so meetings.
[00:59:06] Megan: Yeah. And
[00:59:06] Michael: literally when I was in the big corporate world, I was probably having 30 to 35 meetings a week.
[00:59:11] Megan: Basically all day long, every single day. That's
[00:59:13] Michael: exactly right.
[00:59:14] Megan: Yeah.
[00:59:15] Michael: And sadly, I'm kind of back to that.
[00:59:18] Megan: Yeah.
[00:59:19] Michael: And it's self inflicted.
[00:59:20] Megan: All the worst stuff is, isn't it?
[00:59:22] Michael: I am. Yeah. Was Andy Stanley says something about he was president, the scene of every one of his bad decisions.
[00:59:28] Megan: Yeah, exactly. There was one person who was always there and it was
[00:59:32] Michael: done the category thing before. Like I said, no to brainstorming sessions, for example, because that's usually a request for free consulting. And it's usually from somebody like a classic one for me would be somebody from church who just wants a little advice and they respect my leadership and my experience.
[00:59:48] And how do I say no to that? But I've got to say no to it.
[00:59:52] Megan: But here's the thing. You stop at the point of, but how do I say no to that? We've all done it. We've all had those moments where in our thinking, we [01:00:00] just stop at, but how would that ever be possible? And we don't answer the question. Really what we're saying is it wouldn't ever be possible.
[01:00:06] And so we were not even engaging our brain in the problem solving. That's where somebody outside of us, like Carrie can be so helpful.
[01:00:12] Michael: Well, so true. And like, uh, I get requests for a lot of podcast interviews. And I'm not taking them right now.
[01:00:17] Megan: Yeah.
[01:00:18] Michael: And it's because I'm trying to focus on my writing.
[01:00:20] Megan: Right.
[01:00:21] Michael: And so I just explain that to people. I just say, look, sorry, but I'm not taking any podcast requests right now. Yep. If you want to check back with us next year. Yeah. But right now I'm really trying to focus on my writing.
[01:00:31] Megan: I just felt that there were so many things that I learned out of this interview.
[01:00:35] And it's just a good reminder Of the value of wisdom, you know, I think Carrie has been a good student of his life and of the people that he's guided, whether as a leadership coach or in a pastoral capacity. And there's just a lot there, you know, about how leadership works and how life works. I loved going back to the beginning of the conversation we had when he was talking about self leadership is the biggest thing that we're never taught.
[01:00:59] And you and I talk [01:01:00] about that a lot. so much. You know, that whether it's people that are just not self aware and, you know, they're presumptuous in some way, or they have bigger problems that they're unaware of, or not disciplined, you know, they're, they're demanding a level of performance from their team that they're not even holding themselves accountable for.
[01:01:17] It was a good reminder. I also
[01:01:18] Michael: enjoyed our conversation about burnout because I think
[01:01:21] Megan: it's
[01:01:21] Michael: an Enneagram three. It's difficult for me to be in touch with my feelings.
[01:01:26] Megan: Yeah.
[01:01:27] Michael: Because I tend to just buckle down and muscle through.
[01:01:32] Megan: Yep.
[01:01:32] Michael: And as you know, yesterday I took the day off because I wasn't feeling well yesterday morning.
[01:01:37] And I think just a lot of Too much work kinda had led to the place where I was just crashing and burning.
[01:01:43] Megan: Yeah.
[01:01:44] Michael: And it's hard for me to give myself permission to stop.
[01:01:46] Megan: Yeah.
[01:01:47] Michael: That was the one of the best things I did.
[01:01:49] Megan: Yeah. And then all of a sudden you realize if you have to clear your calendar, of course you can.
[01:01:52] Right. I mean, we're not like saving lives here. I mean, some of you may be saving lives, but we're, we're not worth, we're not saving
[01:01:56] Michael: lives, we're nobody's on our table. And I'll tell you what, I'm on the other end of it, and [01:02:00] somebody cancels a meeting.
[01:02:01] Megan: You're like thrilled.
[01:02:01] Michael: I'm doing the happy dance. Right.
[01:02:03] It's like
[01:02:03] Megan: the best thing that could like we do the best thing, you know, at our dinner table. What was your best thing today? What are you most grateful for? Listen, if I got a canceled meeting, that's probably on the list.
[01:02:10] Michael: Oh man.
[01:02:11] Megan: Yeah.
[01:02:11] Michael: Well guys, we hope you enjoyed this episode of the double win. I think carries the bomb and I really want to encourage you to take a look at the show notes, go to some of the resources that we've listed, but you could really help the show by reviewing it and rating it.
[01:02:26] So do that wherever you listen to this podcast. It really helped us get the word out and get more focus on the podcast. So we can get this message of the double win out there.
[01:02:34] Megan: Absolutely. Thanks so much for listening. We'll see you next week.