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Welcome to Live Free Ride Free, where we talk to people who have lived self-actualized lives on their own terms, and find out how they got there, what they do, how we can get there, what we can learn from them. How to live our best lives, find our own definition of success, and most importantly, find joy.
Your Host is New York Times bestselling author Rupert Isaacson. Long time human rights activist, Rupert helped a group of Bushmen in the Kalahari fight for their ancestral lands. He's probably best known for his autism advocacy work following the publication of his bestselling book "The Horse Boy" and "The Long Ride Home" where he tells the story of finding healing for his autistic son. Subsequently he founded New Trails Learning Systems an approach for addressing neuro-psychiatric conditions through horses, movement and nature. The methods are now used around the world in therapeutic riding program, therapy offices and schools for special needs and neuro-typical children.
You can find details of all our programs and shows on www.RupertIsaacson.com
Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.
Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New
York Times bestselling author of
The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.
Before I jump in with today's guest, I
want to say a huge thank you to you, our
audience, for helping to make this happen.
I have a request.
If you like what we do here,
please give it a thumbs up,
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It really, really helps
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To find out about our certification
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please go to rupertisaacson.com.
So now let's jump in.
Welcome back to Live Free, Ride Free.
I've got Charlotte Wittbom here.
If you live in the UK and you are
looking for really, really, really,
really, like really, like really,
like, like really good classical
instruction, Charlotte's the person.
But there's a reason why she's the person,
and I know this because I've been hanging
out kind of around Charlotte world for,
mm, oh, 15 years or something like that.
And y- she and I share a the, our main
mentor, which is Luis Valença in Portugal.
But Charlotte really has taken the
classical thing and made a crossover into
the sport world that very few people do,
and very few people manage to do without
sort of divorcing one to do the other.
And so in many ways, because she's now
becoming a bit sort of significant in
that regard in the UK, she's a little
bit our Great White Hope because there's
a lot of us cheerleading from the side
like, "Go Charlotte, go Charlotte, go
Charlotte," because we want things to
get a little better, frankly in, in
this stressage world, which dressage
unfortunately has to some degree become.
And Charlotte really understands this
and, and makes life better for horses
and humans, I would say, while sort of
staying within that dressagy sphere.
And so how does she do it?
Why does she do it?
Who does she do it for?
Does she do it in funny Halloween
costumes bouncing around on pogo
sticks, maybe on trampolines?
We don't know.
We need to find out, so
I've got her on the show.
And she's rad, and
she's gonna tell us why.
So thank you so much,
Charlotte, for coming on.
Can you tell us who you are, where you
came from, what you do, why do you do it?
Charlotte Wittbom: Thank you
first for this introduction.
It was a very nice one.
So yes, I'm from Sweden originally
and started in the cross-country world
or the eventing world with ponies.
And very early learned how to stay
on the horses because we were riding
ponies- That's always a good thing.
Yeah.
We were riding ponies.
We had not saddles or we
used those kind of flatâ¦
It was Shetland ponies, so it's
those kind of flat saddles.
And I had an ice hockey
helmet, and that was it.
So, my parents were horsey people.
They mostly did had a racing horse.
It was introduced before I could walk.
I used to sit behind my mum out on
hacks probably in front of my mom.
And when my sister came along,
she stayed in front, and I stayed
behind, and we did hours of that.
So yeah, I, I think riding has
been a big part from, from day one.
And we had this unique experience
that you have in Sweden, that
you just have forests, and you
could just go out for hours.
And we played with the ponies,
and we learned how to start them
because quite often they were
quite wild when we got them.
And then after that, we also started to
compete quite, me and my sister, compete
regularly almost every weekend at summers
and do the championships and everything.
So the horses have always been a part of
how I live and breathe, and I knew quite
early that I wanted to take a path in
that and I think that first experience,
first of course with my parents, they
were very committed to it, but also that
thing of just being able to play without
the rules and learned how to communicate
and jump and just, you know, just having
a good time have really helped me now
later on in my life in, in having that
feel to to the horses, and balance, and
how you f- find that freedom, I guess-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
Charlotte Wittbom: to get with
the horse without the rules.
And then obviously later in
my life came the rules also.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
But it's, w- when the rules come- So-
⦠I mean, your, your start was actually
not dissimilar to mine in many ways.
It's interesting that w- then- Mm
⦠later when the rules come, you can kind
of appreciate them and go, "Oh, I see.
Yeah, these rules kind of make life- Yeah
⦠you know, more efficient or moreâ¦
It, it, it allows you to do more.
And at the same time, if you- Yeah
⦠lose that joy of the rule-breaking or
the no rules- Mm ⦠or if you always
stay in the rules, then there is no joy.
I-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: But not
everyone gets to start with- No
the joy like you did.
Charlotte Wittbom: No, I
think it's very unique.
It, it, it, it is of course that
you live in a place where you can
do it- Mm ⦠is very important.
And also of course that you have the,
the support of, of parents, especially
if you live, it's an expensive sport.
But I think if I look back at it
now, and then I h- of course I
had a lot of good instructors.
We competed on a very
high level with ponies.
That was a- a- another part of it too.
I think if I really look back at it, it
was that playing and learn how to stay
on that I really draw from, Mm ⦠later
on during during my career really.
Rupert Isaacson: But now you're
this classical dressage person.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: And you're sort of
one of the biggies now in the UK.
You're a bit of a well-kept secret.
Not sure
Charlotte Wittbom: about that.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, you are.
Yes, you are.
A- and, and more and more people
are finding out about you.
Mm.
And, you know, every chance I get I
always tell people to go train with you.
How did you leave those forests of Sweden
and find your way to this classical thing?
What happened?
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
So I competed on a quite high level,
and when I finished school, it was
sort of, I didn't know what to do
with, with, as the next step really.
I knew I wanted to work with horses.
I wasn't necessarily looking at
a competitive part in a way, just
because I think I'm a person that
always put quite a lot of pressure
on myself, so the competition
environment never really worked for me.
My sister always did much better 'cause
she didn't listen to the lessons and
then she went in and just, and did
very well, while I worked very hard
most of the times, and therefore
I think that it, it, it, it wasâ¦
I was, I think, looking for a different
way to connect and learn without at that
point maybe understanding what that was.
So, my path took me to a riding
school in the UK, Suzanne's Riding
School which had the owner called
Julian Marczak, and he, heâ¦
I think they were quite early,
like, they were outside London.
I can't remember where now,
but they were quite well-known.
In the way that they organized the, theâ¦
You could do the ABRS or BHS courses
and at the same time- Right ⦠you
also had possibility to teach in, in
those programs and had a lot of ponies.
And when I came to his place,
he immediately just let me be
on the lunge and learned, and
taught me how to sit properly.
And later on, which I didn't know then
he always told me that he had been to
Portugal and he had trained for Master
Nuno Oliveira's son, João Oliveira.
Of course, at that point I had
no clue because I didn't know
anything of, of the classical world.
But what he did was really strip
me back into really understanding
my seat and how to sit properly,
and then the lessons at those days,
I didn't know that then either.
We did a lot of walk work, a
lot of lateral work in walk.
And it was a very different way of
teaching style to what I had been used
to, to coming more from the more Germanic
way, I guess, in Sweden to get the
horses ready for the competition ring.
And there I just felt that there
was something that really ticked the
boxes, I guess, in me, and found a
way of how I could learn a different
way of communicating with a horse
and help them to work in a balance.
It was really early days then, but it was
something I knew that I wanted to do more.
And after sort of traveling around
the world, I came to Portugal and Met
the Valença family and was very kindly
offered a place at their, their pla- at
their house, at their equestrian center.
And when I came there, I really
felt like I had found a way of, of
understanding horsemanship in the
way that I think I was looking for.
So I, I managed to stay
there for quite a long time.
And what soâ¦
If we're gonna have a shortcut to the
whole journey, after being with the
Valenças for a few years doing the
shows with them of course learning a
system that I'm, today, it- it's, it's,
it's very, very loyal to or rooted to.
When, after finishing my time with them,
I after start to run Quinta do Brejo,
which was Master Nuno Oliveira's old yard.
So when I came there, I realized this is
where my instructor in London started.
And that I've had those first six months
with him, in a way, as a preparation,
I think, w- for getting the seat,
the classical seat, and getting the,
the know-how to sort of be able to
make that transition to Portugal.
That was almost like I've gone
full circle then in that way.
So yeah, that was how, how it sort of
became that path starting in England.
That's why it's a little bit funny that
I'm there, that I'm in England now.
Rupert Isaacson: Couple of questions.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: You said, "Oh,
I found my way to Portugal after
traveling around the world."
Yeah.
Okay, question, where,
where did you go around- So-
the world before you got to Portugal?
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah, so I
went first to Portugal and was
just with a I saw an ad in Sweden
that they needed people for work.
So I went down and met up
with this s- a Swedish lady.
And she showed me the, the, a big
Xavier Lima, a big breeder- In
Portugal, and I was offered a job there.
So I was supposed to travel for a whole
year, but I put the travel down to six
months so I could come back to Portugal.
Okay.
And then I worked for them
a bit, and then after that I
Rupert Isaacson: met- And then how did you
find your way from them to the Valenças?
Just before you answer, so
it's, it's an interesting thing.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: I had been going
down to Portugal for a while-
Mm ⦠rather similar reasons to you.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: A bit different because
obviously I had this therapeutic-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: way of looking at it.
I realized that collection,
soft collection was the key-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: to autistic kids speaking
in the saddle- Mm ⦠in front of me.
It was an oxytocin connection with.
Mm.
So I, I needed to learn more about
this, so of course I, I went for
training here, training there.
Mm.
You know, and then little by little
I kept hearing this name coming
up, Valença, Valença, Valença.
Mm.
And then I remember thinking,
"Well, I'd like to find my
way to this, these people."
Mm.
But I got told, "Oh, no, you
know, they're very exclusive, and-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
Rupert Isaacson: you can't really
approach them, and it's like a, you
know, holy priesthood, and they-
Mm ⦠don't really speak English."
And finally one day, the, the journalist
in me just thought, "Fuck it," you know.
I mean, they k- they're just people.
Mm.
And I just went online and, oh,
there's their website, and it's called.
Yeah.
And I got Sophia Valença.
She's like, "Yeah, of course
you can come tomorrow.
What are you talking about?"
Yeah.
Yeah.
And she spoke great English.
And I, "Oh, I gotâ¦"
So she, "Oh, yeah, people do
that because they kind of want
to own us in a funny way."
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
A-
Rupert Isaacson: And then of course I
went and, like you, my life changed.
Mm.
But whatâ¦
Yeah, how did, yeah, how did
you find your way to them?
And- So- ⦠what specifically made you
think, "Oh my God, it's these people
here," rather than all these other
fantastic horse people in Portugal?
Charlotte Wittbom: Well, I think I
was quite lost, if I'm completely
honest, in that part of my life in
both of probably looking for who I am,
but also in my identity as a rider.
So I did see a show with them
during my first time before I
travel around the world where I-
Rupert Isaacson: Ah
Charlotte Wittbom: really just-
Rupert Isaacson: Can you tell us
what, not everyone who's listening
knows what that show- Yeah ⦠was.
So
Charlotte Wittbom: it
Rupert Isaacson: was just
a- Tell us about that show.
What was it
Charlotte Wittbom: called
and what was in it?
It was like a, it was a
little, a feira you would say.
What, how do you what,
what do you say feira in-
Rupert Isaacson: like a
Charlotte Wittbom: fair ⦠English?
Like a, like a, yeah.
Yeah, like a fair.
So it was just a lo- it was a
local fair, and I saw- In Portugal?
In Portugal.
I can't remember the town.
But what I remember from it was f- just
the strongest because it was quite a
while ago, the strongest that I still
have in my mind was when I saw little
Ines, which is the granddaughter of it's a
great-granddaugh-daughter of Master Luis.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
No, she, she's the, she's the
granddaughter, but now she has
her own daughter- Yes, yes ⦠so
now he has- Of course ⦠he
now has a great-granddaughter
Charlotte Wittbom: as well.
Great-granddaughter.
Yeah.
It's all confusing.
Granddaughter.
So, and she was riding in with her
s- her mother I think it was, and if
it was one of the sisters, but it was
just that with the music, with their
beautiful dresses, and the way they were
presenting the, the, the, the likeness
and the, the classical music and this
beautiful Baroque horses, again, I-
Did not know much about Lusitano and
Portugal, and to have that as your sort of
experience a month in when you fir- when
I first came to Portugal was a really,
really strong and a strong impression.
And then I knew that that is,
was the way I wanted to ride,
that was the way I wanted to go.
But of course, I had
no connection to them.
But what happened was it that where
I used to work Master Luis and his
family used to come and buy horses.
So they had s- we had met, not
personally, w- never introduced to
it, but we were, they had seen me
ride and then through a mutual friend
I got the space at Master Luis.
So it was a v- Mm ⦠very strange way
of of getting to that part because it
was nothing that was planned and nothing
that I had been looking for either.
Mm.
It was just sort of st- steered
for that direction really.
Rupert Isaacson: And then, okay,
y- you spent your time there, and
like anyone who's spent time there-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: you realize, oh,
my gosh, this, this is possible.
I can do this if it- with, with the
right mentorship, blah, blah, blah.
Then you end up running-
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah, yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: the show over
at Nuno Oliveira's old barn.
How did that happen?
And who was running it?
Like, you, you didn't buy it presumably
and start running it yourself.
That would've been- No, I
didn't ⦠a lot of capital.
I, I mean, h- so, so who, who was- ⦠and
what was going on there, and yeah.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
So during my time at Valença's
I, I see that time as, as really
understanding what I want with
my own riding, what I want to do.
Of course, early days and
everything, but also a way of, of
calming down, if that makes sense.
A way of, of l- learning how
to live life because Portugal,
everything is a bit slower, if I-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
⦠Charlotte Wittbom: okay to say so.
And the art is very important.
The, the time and the, the,
that you're having a nice time
together is very important.
Mm.
The, the conversation
between e- each other.
So it's, the, it's a completely
different way of living.
So I think- Mm ⦠it was very,
very good for my own personal
development in many, many ways.
So I definitely thought I was gonna
just stay there for a year, but then
stayed much longer as a result of it.
And, I didn't go straight to the
Quinta do Brejo after the Vallanzas.
I, I also worked at Morgado
do Lucitano for a while where-
Mm ⦠which was also very good
because what I could do there was just
practicing my craft a bit, I think.
Finding a way of how to make things
your own because you live a- and
you learn, and you absorb it i- in
all the different ways that you can.
And then to sort of go away and finding
a little bit of, getting a bit of
experience teaching- Mm-hmm ⦠and,
and riding was a, a, a very, very good-
Morgado being a place that people- I, I
Rupert Isaacson: think I would have
been ready to take on ⦠tourists
can come, equestrian tourists, and
experience the classical Lusitano thing.
Can come and ride.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Charlotte Wittbom: Experience.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was like a holiday place,
Yeah ⦠for people to come and
ride very well-trained horses.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
⦠Charlotte Wittbom: and from that I
then tried my own thing with, Again,
I can't even remember how I got in
connection with the owners of Quinta do
Brejo, but I got that opportunity to,
Rupert Isaacson: And they
had horses there presumably?
Charlotte Wittbom: I
brought some of my own.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Charlotte Wittbom: Had some clients'
horses, and they had a few horses
as well that Dom Tomas Alergran was
riding and training at that times.
And him and his wife were incredible
of opening their arms up for my
new adventure, and also to be a
very big part in giving guests
an experience of eating dinner at
Master Nuno Oliveira's old house.
Breakfast and dinner,
Rupert Isaacson: Did you have, like,
seances with a Ouija board and you
could, like, ask him questions from the-
You'd be like, "Nuno, are you there?"
And he'd give you like- That
Charlotte Wittbom: would be good.
" Rupert Isaacson: You ride like shit."
Charlotte Wittbom: That
would be very good.
But yeah Don Tomas definitely enjoyed
telling stories about, about that time.
And what I also got so fascinating
when the saddles we used
was his old saddles as well.
So when people complained-
Rupert Isaacson: So
Charlotte Wittbom: there'd be some
clever butt sweat in there, like-
"Oh, but these are not comfortable
saddles" I said that, "Hey, Master
Nuno Oliveira sat in them, soâ¦"
Rupert Isaacson: So a- absorbing
all that clever sweat- Yeah
up through your own butt.
You're like-
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah
⦠" Rupert Isaacson: Channel,
channel through me"
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But did, did, did Don
Tomas buy the, the Quinta from- Yeah,
Charlotte Wittbom: yeah ⦠from Nuno?
So he had bought, bought, bought it
and Master Nuno Oliveira's Yeah, he
had bought it and he owned it, so
he, he ran it as his, his own yard.
But he, he himself really looked up to
Master Nuno Oli- Oliveira, and him- he had
taken it to really preserving him in it.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Charlotte Wittbom: So everything
was just as it was at his time,
except that they had done rooms
where some of the stables were.
But the little indoor arena- Still, you
know, he was playing classical music.
It was it was really,
like, you could feel.
There's a very particular
atmosphere at that place.
I don't know if you've ever been-
Rupert Isaacson: I've never been, no
Charlotte Wittbom: visiting.
No.
Rupert Isaacson: I'd love to.
Is it still going?
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
Oh.
I don't know if they do some riding, I
mean, if they still do riding, but they
definitely that you can stay there.
But it has a very particular calm,
I would say, about that place.
And you can almost, you know,
feel the presence of something
big, if that sounds okay.
It is- Mm ⦠it, it is incredible to
feel that you've, to ride in that place
and understanding what an im- importance
that place and, and the person that, of
course, owned that place, what he had
created for, for the future generation
in, in- Yeah ⦠the horse world.
Rupert Isaacson: Just quickly, for those
listeners and watchers who do not know
who Nuno Oliveira was let's say that
he sitteth upon the right hand of God.
In the, in the 20th century classical
riding in the Baroque style had
largely disappeared from the, I guess,
the purview of people in the West
outside of enclaves in Iberia, in
Spain and Portugal, and enclaves like
the Spanish Riding School of Vienna.
And- Nuno Oliveira, what he did was he
looked at all of the warring factions
the French, the German, the Portuguese.
I wouldn't say the Portuguese
were warring actually.
They were just- Yeah ⦠happily
doing their own thing-
Yeah ⦠rather brilliantly.
And he said very rationally, "Look,
everyone's trying to do the same thing.
Everyone's trying to get back really
to the 18th century with these two
guys, one of whom was French, La
Gueriniere, and one of whom was,
was Portuguese, called Marialva."
And those two guys knew each
other, and he said, "Now, nowâ¦"
And they, and they worked
together to some degree.
They corresponded.
They, they, you know,
they were colleagues.
And that's where this idea of the
French-Portuguese style came in.
And of course there was the bullfighting
style down in Portugal, and the more
sort of balletic style up in, in France,
but both of them still also producing
horses for combat in the cavalry.
And so Nuno said, you know, clearly these
guys were the apex, but in the intervening
centuries, horses have changed.
We now have these warmbloods.
We have Anglo-Arabs.
We have Thoroughbreds.
So you need to tweak it a bit like
this and tweak it a bit like that
for these other types of horse.
We don't need to be
warring with each other.
We can synthesize these things, and
then take these new types of horse and
sort of bring them back to what these
original old dead dudes said we should do.
And he sort of proved
it really, I would say.
Yeah.
Mm.
And then Master Nuno M- Master Luis
Valença, who we have talked about in
this conversation, who was also the
student of Oliveira and his cousin- Wow
Has sort of carried that on.
And you and I, Charlotte, are both
beneficiaries of this because- Yeah ⦠we
work with every breed under the sun, and
we find that the rules apply really across
the breeds, but with this rational thing
of saying, yes, you tweak it a little
bit French style- Right ⦠if you're
going with the Anglo-Arab, Thoroughbred-y
types, and you tweak it a little bit
Germanic style if you're going with
the warmblood-y types who really like
to go forward, and that sort of thing.
Yeah.
And then you, but you bring
it back to that sort of ideal.
Okay, so you found yourself there-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: running wonderful
dressage teaching and experiences
and blah, blah, blah in the holy
cathedral of Nuno Oliveira- Yeah ⦠and
then you ended up in Manchester.
So what happened?
Charlotte Wittbom: Yes.
Well, I moved to the UK.
That happened.
No, I think, I think that path, I
think looking back at it to be able
to still stay in Portugal- Again,
learn my craft even better because I
think if you're going back to a bit
what you said about Master Luis and
his family, what he had really given
us, it's a system a pr- a method
that is a part of your DNA in a way.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Charlotte Wittbom: But also that
you- Feel allowed to develop
the path you want to take.
Rupert Isaacson: 100%.
Charlotte Wittbom: I think sometimes
when you have a method or you have
a system, it's very easy to think,
"No, we have to stay to this system.
We have to stay to the method."
Of course, but there's a-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
⦠Charlotte Wittbom: to have a base
where you also have the, him being
such a big master, him having
this i- incredible self-less self,
Rupert Isaacson: We're talking
about Master Luis here?
Charlotte Wittbom: He,
no, he's not selfish.
He's very ex-
Rupert Isaacson: Selfless.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah,
Master Luis Valença.
That he's very- It's
Rupert Isaacson: gotta be said- Selfless
⦠he's one of the nicest dudes- Yes.
⦠you've ever met.
Yeah.
He's not your- Yeah ⦠usual grumpy-
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: opinionated angry,
bitter slightly abusive, but with lots
of good information type dressage dude.
No- No ⦠quite the opposite.
No.
Quite the opposite.
He's like- Yeah ⦠the dude that
you wanna go have lunch with anyway.
Charlotte Wittbom: And the and he
would always go out with lunch, Yes
⦠Rupert Isaacson: or
Charlotte Wittbom: lunch with you as well.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Charlotte Wittbom: And, and I think
what the real gift in, in his and his
family's method is that you are allowed
and, and you feel allowed, and you are
able to develop and take inputs- Mm
from other things that
still fit into that system.
Mm.
So it's not a system that is there
to, that needs to be- It's not
Rupert Isaacson: rigid.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah, no.
Yeah.
And he's not there to
keep a man up either.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
It's not a cult.
You know- No ⦠one of the things which
I've, I've noticed so much about some of
the latter day dressage gurus is it's like
you're either with them or against them.
Mm-hmm.
You know?
You're not allowed to say, "Well,
yes, I'd like to do a portion of
what you do, but I'd also like to
d- " It's like, "Nope, you eitherâ¦"
You know, all that sh- stuff is
shite unless it's me, and, you
know, and you'll be excommunicated.
It's like a church almost.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And if that's we
know that's not how horses are.
Yeah.
And we know that's not how people are.
And I wonder if because Luis comes
from Nuno, who comes from Maria Alva
and La Garenne- Mm ⦠I wonder if-
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: because that,
that was always multidisciplinary.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Bullfighting
was always part of the thing even
though Luis is not a bullfighter.
Mm.
But he understands the Rejonero- Mm
form of dressage, and he's not a working
equitation rider, but he understands the
working equitation- Mm ⦠side of it.
And he, all of these are forms of
dressage, and the classical balletic form.
Yeah.
I think that there's a much broader
sort of a understanding of- the art-
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: as a
living, breathing thing.
Yeah.
And sometimes also a curiosity in terms
of the people that come in, rather than,
"I'm the teacher and you're gonnaâ¦"
So one of the things that I was very
humbled by when I was first spending
time there was that Sophia and
him said, "Okay, let's put a horse
pr- a horse boy program in here."
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
We, we, you know- Yeah
they were one of the first people
to say- Yeah ⦠"Yeah, we see it."
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
" Rupert Isaacson: Sure."
Yeah.
"Let's have some autistic
people come in and we'll-
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: harness our
dressage for that," you know?
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So rare that
you'd have that kind ofâ¦
And then they were like,
"Show us what to do, Rupert."
Yeah.
I'm like, "I'm not showing
you what to do, Luiz."
Yeah.
You know?
Y- and he said, "No, no, no, but the, it,
it's, it's this other thing, so show us."
And then- Yeah ⦠of course, they
did it beautifully and amazingly.
But humble.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Humble is definitely a word, and I
also think as everything, as my journey
here in the UK at the moment, and if
we later on will go a bit into the,
sort of the, I don't like to call
it a dressage world at all, because
I think good riding is good riding.
But it, I think what is so important is
that we have to listen first, and I think
one of those things, it's, it's when you
really understand and you know what you
are looking for or you know your method or
you have it, y- it's almost you can, the
person you're teaching have to be ready
for it - Yeah, sure ⦠to listen to that.
And you have to also then understand first
where that person is in their life and
what they are- Mm ⦠able to take in.
And I think maybe unknowingly
or knowingly, they have
that ability both as a- Mm.
.. as a family.
But also, of course, Master Luiz
Valença, but they all, that they,
they- Take you from where you are.
And I think that it's one of the
biggest lesson that, or lesson, biggest
thing that I'm thinking about now when
I continue the pa- your path, that
is everyone are on their own paths.
Mm.
So there's no just the
truth somewhere out there.
Mm.
For each person you meet, for each
story you listen to, for each horse
you meet or, and understanding their
past and what it is, it's always
something new that you're creating.
Mm.
And to have a proper method in place that
Rupert Isaacson: m-
Charlotte Wittbom: make
s- so secure about that, that you can
have that ability that you also feel
that you are learning at each each
meeting you d- have, I think that is,
it's very unique, and I'm very, very
grateful for that experience and for-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, you-
⦠Charlotte Wittbom: having that now.
Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: And
that's what art is, right?
You know.
Mm.
I'm, I'm a writer and it is true that
there is a certain structure in stories.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: If you ⦠And you have
to, you have to humble yourself to that.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
That there's always a prologue which
starts- Mm ⦠at the height of the
action and leaves you with a question- Mm
what will happen?
You know?
Yeah.
So that you then want to
engage with the story.
And then act one is the call to action.
Mm.
Usually the protagonist is reluctant.
Mm.
Gets pulled in.
Mm.
Then act two, it all goes wrong.
Mm.
And you know, Darth Vader kind of
almost wins and- Mm ⦠then the Luke
Skywalker character or whoever has,
realizes they have to change something
internally and learn some different thing.
They find their Yoda or their
Luis Valenca or whatever.
Mm.
And then they internalize
those lessons and go out-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: to
meet the dilemma again.
Act three, they meet Darth Vader again
or whoever, and it all goes wrong
again, but at the point where the
lightsaber's at their throat, they
remember that Luis Valenca said- Mm
um, ah, you know, it's all
about the thumb and forefinger.
And Yeah.
⦠the outside rein.
And, Mm ⦠and they, they call on that
and they prevail, and then the- Mm.
Mm ⦠epilogue, you see the characters
leaving into a changed world.
Now, some of- someone might say-
Mm ⦠"Oh, that's so rigid, Rupert.
You know, surely not every
story adheres to that."
No, they absolutely do.
However-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: because it's built
into the human psyche, that story.
Mm.
Mm.
And it's to do with shamanism,
and it's to do with how story's
been used for healing since-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: the beginning of time.
However, the numbers of ways that
that can be expressed are infinite.
And I, I feel that within horses, the
Valença family have this unique ability
to be able to see it that way, to say,
"Well, look, there is a structure."
Mm.
And they, as you say,
they give you a structure.
And I was lucky to have Ma-
Master Luis on this show-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: a few days ago, so
he sort of explained his structure.
But of course, that structure's
infinitely flexible- Mm-hmm ⦠and
infinitely tweakable- Twistable ⦠to
the infinite number of horses and
human combinations that might, Yeah
present.
And that is art, right?
That is art.
Yeah,
Charlotte Wittbom: yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay They do
So you're doing all this art in
Portugal- And we- ⦠and you're
having a cracking time ⦠can't
Charlotte Wittbom: be mini copies
of, of the great man or of the-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
So again, how did you, how did you
end up leaving Portugal, because
it sounds like a kind of promised
land, and ended up in Manchester?
Charlotte Wittbom: My husband
is f- is from Manchester.
Rupert Isaacson: You say your
husband's from Manchester.
Well, sure, but you're
hanging out in Portugal.
Where's the Mancunian man come into this?
Charlotte Wittbom: So I came
to the UK because I met, Well,
I didn't come straight to UK.
I first went to Sweden in
between, and then after I came
to England because of love
And started in a way all over again here
in the UK, which was also a very humbling
experience because I think what I felt
in Portugal is that after running Master
Nuno Oliveira's y- yard and having sort
of working on that craft, I've always
had a bit of a feel that I w- I would
wanted to come back into the competition
world where I came from originally.
And in many ways, I think moving to
Manchester or South of Manchester have
really helped me continuing that pathway
of, of going back to where I started
in a way of, of meeting people there
competing, but also finding a way to
use the experience I've had in Portugal
because what is nice when I came as
a Swede with the experience of the
competing was that everything I did in
Portugal were very, very different to how
someone that lives, you know, in Sweden
or someone that lives in the UK lives.
Like, the way you h- how you work
with horses, the sunshine . First
of all, you're mostly in mud.
And the, the food, the,
the classical music.
If you go back to Sweden or go back to
the UK, that looks very, very different.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, it does.
Charlotte Wittbom: So I think
it was quite nice to go back
to the, to the roots in a way.
Not the roots, but the similar
to how I gr- grew up and try
to find a way how to use all my
experience that I had in Portugal.
And also to find a pathway where I could
share that to others, especially the
groundwork, which have really been my
thing here in the UK to- Mm ⦠to help
people to understand the importance of
the groundwork, get them a proper method
in place- Mm-hmm ⦠with the groundwork.
And also in that way- really understanding
how it, it helps, of course, themselves,
their own riding, but also helps them to
understand what feel and how things looks
like can be either very different or- Mm.
Or being quite in a different way
than, than what you thought and having
that sort of visual thing as well
as the feel of in the saddle, and
that has been very, very rewarding.
So I think from, from nothing in
many ways and finding a way of, of
putting everything you learned into
a, a, a completely different set
of circumstances w- has been a way
of, of refining the craft again.
And in here in the UK I did
meet, Quite early on late Steven
Clark, which for those that don't
know, he's a, he was an FEI judge
And a dressage judge five star, and he
also sat in the I think in the London
Olympic Committee as the head judge.
I might be wrong about that.
But he, he was, he lived just nearby here.
So I managed to start to
take lessons from him.
So it was in a way going first
from my competitive background
to something completely
Rupert Isaacson: different,
Charlotte Wittbom: which was
the classical way of riding.
You know, good riding's good riding,
so it was not completely different.
But the way of, of breeding a living
horse is completely different to,
to- Mm ⦠what I'm, was used to.
And then getting to the UK and, Sitting,
standing in mud and sort of trying to-
Mm ⦠find a way of, of crafting again,
and then meeting someone in the com- a,
a, a really good, a, a very nice humble
man Stephen Clarke, to learn a different
set of, of, of of, of ways of, of riding.
It's notâ¦
It's the same, but you know, different
thoughts, different way of, of
having that conversation about learn,
teaching horses and teaching people.
So I think it's really been quite
different stages in that way.
Rupert Isaacson: And, and now you're-
Charlotte Wittbom: Of how we-
Rupert Isaacson: Go ahead.
I'm interrupting you.
Charlotte Wittbom: No, no, no.
You're not interrupting, sorry.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, the, you talk
about the groundwork and of course,
you and I both know that having, if
you like- Mm ⦠gone through the
Valenza/Nuno/Marialva La Guerinière sort
of line, that the in hand work is the key.
Mm.
Mm.
And you know, we, we get trained to
teach our horses all the fancy stuff,
including flying changes, walking next
to our horses and then we find that that
translates brilliantly to the saddle more
easily, more smoothly, ba, ba, ba, ba.
Mm.
Mm.
And but now in the, you know as
well as I do the, the competition
world in dressage is not that.
And so you find- Mm ⦠yourself
back in that world.
Mm ⦠how has all that groundwork helped
you, and then also, have you found that
there's a sort of a change of heart going
on within the sort of regular competition
world in dressage more towards this?
Or y- 'cause you know, I don't exist
in the competition world at all.
All right?
Mm.
Mm ⦠so I'm sort of in the
teaching world, in the training
world, and in the therapy world.
So I can kind of i- ignore
it to some degree, and I get
clients, of course- Yeah,
Charlotte Wittbom: mm ⦠who
Rupert Isaacson: want to say, "Well,
how do I teach my horse to piaffe, or
how do I teach my horse to passage?"
I say, "Okay, I can show you that.
But what I can't do is I can't show
you that- Mm ⦠in a way that will
please- Mm ⦠an FEI judge for that."
And then I always say, "Go to Charlotte.
She'll do that."
Because she understands where
it's coming from- ⦠and then,
and then how to, you know.
Mm.
But you know, we don't obviously
just wanna be pleasing judges.
But at the same time in
competition, you kind of have to.
So how do you- Mm ⦠tread
this uneasy line?
It, it, it's an interesting
crossroads that you sit at.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I don't think, I don't-
See it as a crossroad, I think.
I think what it was in myself, it was
two very different worlds in, in a way.
I came from a competitive where
I really struggled with pressure.
I, I did not necessarily feel as a
good rider after doing a test, even
though I could get the good marks.
It was something in me that
just didn't, sit right or I
was looking for something else.
And then with the, the, the, my journey
in Portugal and then coming back here
to the UK, I think my mission was very
much, oh, I would like to really try
to start to compete again because more
for my own sort of way of, of seeing
if I could do it without falling apart,
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm
Charlotte Wittbom: uh, in, in
the ring with the pressure.
And I did to a certain
extent, a little bit of that.
But I think what, with the people I met
and with the, the, the path is taking, of
course when I first came over to the UK
there was a lot of people that are just
so curious in what you're doing and you,
you have to always build your craft with-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
Charlotte Wittbom: with, in, in
all the different surroundings
you're in to- Mm ⦠so to be able
to start from from new in a way.
I, I always think of that when I
worked at Morgado Lusitano my, it
was me and my ex-husband that were
there as the instructors, and I
always remember everyone always came
and was so disappointed when they
got to me as an instructor because
of course they wanted- You weren't
Rupert Isaacson: Portuguese
Charlotte Wittbom: they wanted my
Portuguese husband at that time.
And I always think that that journey
of being that disappoint- appointment
and learning your craft to, to get to,
to give to the people that you, you
know, that you're, that you teach, that
actually, you know, finding a way of
being able to communicate and, and that
they do like the lesson afterwards- Mm
has been such a good part because it
was a bit the same then to go to the UK.
They don't know who you are.
You're completely new for- Mm ⦠for,
I did give some clinics in the UK.
I did give clinics in Oxford and so I was
not completely without a client group.
But it- it's that craft, those
hours, that way of finding a way
in, which you only can by people
feeling a difference in their horses.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Charlotte Wittbom: And also being
understanding that it has to come from
word of mouth, and also has to come
from- Mm ⦠from the joy of that meeting
with the- Mm ⦠the, the instructor
and the horse and, and the, the, the
person that is riding, the rider.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Charlotte Wittbom: It's, so then come
into the experience where I have now
where I work with Rachel Gretham,
which i- was the previous team
physio of the British Dressage team.
To m- be able to ⦠So we do quite
a lot of, ⦠We do clinics together
or demos together to be able to
find ⦠Let me rephrase that one.
Sorry.
Mm-hmm.
I'm disappearing out of topic.
The, the journey f- starting from the
beginning in, in p- in the UK of finding
a way to learn your craft and finding a
way to help people to find a different way
of communicating with the horses as from
the ground, the only way of, of I guess
the, the real curiosity as an instructor
to want to find a way for the rider and
the horse to find a way of, of working
better as, as as a communication, but
also to really understand the biomechanics
of the horse, to really understand how
the little movements that we're doing
as when we do haunches around the cone,
for instance, from the ground, how all
that goes in together when you then
afterwards want to do the perfect flying,
flying change or you want to make- Mm
the perfect canter transition
To, because this has been a journey
for me as well to understand how
everything works with the muscles, with
the fascia- Mm ⦠with the connection
of the hyoid bones, the tongue.
Mm.
Everything that we, that I learned
in Portugal, what this part in the
UK have done is sort of helped me
to put the name on and understand
what happens in the horse's body.
So I think that, that the, from meeting
different kind of people being able
to, to help people and help myself,
I guess, in a way of learning more
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So one of the things which was a
revelation for me when I first started
using that system of in-hand work
was I got into it because we wanted
to cr- create soft collection so
that autistic children would get- Mm
the benefit of oxytocin- Mm ⦠and
then be able to communicate.
Mm.
Okay, fine.
What we then saw, of course, was that,
which everybody sees when they do this
work, is that the horses that you do
this with suddenly become super horses.
And they, if you work in the therapy
field, you're mostly working with donation
horses that are coming with messed up
bodies and minds because that's the kind
of horse that people give away in general.
And we found that we could
reverse age these horses.
Mm.
Mm.
We found that we could take horses- Mm
⦠with pretty chronic problems particularly
in the joints- Mm ⦠or in the soft
tissues, and make it look like they just
never had been there to some degree.
And- Mm ⦠we could create
emotional intelligence in horses.
This was, this was the thing which
was the real revelation to me.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, you
got horses that showed up with
a kind of a big fat no in them.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: And you could
absolutely understand, you know?
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: And then that no would
transfer as you went through these on,
these patterns- Mm ⦠pa- you know,
the, the shoulders around the haunches,
the haunches around the shoulders- Yeah.
Mm ⦠and then all the
myriad combinations of those.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: Like a yoga, you know?
Mm.
W- you'd find that, we would find that the
horses went from no to maybe, to okay, to-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: yes.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: To at
your service, madam.
Like, and, and- Mm.
Yeah ⦠the, it was almost
like a predictable three-month
process if you, if you started.
Mm.
That, that their bodies started to
feel so good, but also their minds.
Yeah.
And then understanding what we-
Mm ⦠understand with the therapy work
that we do with neuroscience- Mm ⦠is
that when you engage the vestibular
system Which of course happens with
horses just like with humans when you
keep crossing the midline of the body.
Mm.
That's all that lateral work-
Mm ⦠all those patterns.
Mm.
The brain produces a
protein when this happens.
Mm.
Mm.
That protein, this amino acid, this
protein- Mm ⦠is called BDNF,
brain-derived neurotrophic factor.
Mm.
It's neuroplasticity.
The brain just effectively-
Mm ⦠creates a new brain.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And we
watched this happen again and
again and again and again.
And then of course, we watched it
happen with special needs people
that we taught how to do this.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: How to
do the groundwork as well.
Yeah.
That their brains changed
just like ours did.
Yeah.
And you realize, oh, my
gosh, this is sort of-
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: the way to
emotional intelligence in a horse.
Mm.
Because if, yeah, if you're gonna
go bull fighting on a horse or if
you're gonna do something like this-
Mm ⦠you need the horse to be,
have a whole different kind of brain-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm-hmm
Rupert Isaacson: um, to your regular
horse that shies- Yeah ⦠at a dustbin.
Mm.
And the, the same horse
that shies at a dustbin-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: can be the
horse that says, "No problem.
Leave it to me"- Yeah,
Charlotte Wittbom: yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: in any given situation.
Yeah.
Just like a human.
Yeah.
But I don't see this happening so much
with training from the saddle- Yeah
but I really see this happening
with training on the ground.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Talk to
us a little bit about this.
As you know, if you followed any of
my work, I'm an autism dad and we have
a whole career before this podcast in
helping people with neurodivergence,
either who are professionals in the field.
Are you a therapist?
Are you a caregiver?
Are you a parent?
Or are you somebody with neurodivergence?
When my son, Rowan, was
diagnosed with autism in 2004,
I really didn't know what to do.
So I reached out for mentorship, and
I found it through an amazing adult
autistic woman who's very famous, Dr.
Temple Grandin.
And she told me what to do.
And it's been working so
amazingly for the last 20 years.
That not only is my son basically
independent, but we've helped
countless, countless thousands
of others reach the same goal.
Working in schools, working at
home, working in therapy settings.
If you would like to learn this
cutting edge, neuroscience backed
approach, it's called Movement Method.
You can learn it online, you
can learn it very, very simply.
It's almost laughably simple.
The important thing is to begin.
Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr.
Grandin and see what results can follow.
Go to this website, newtrailslearning.
com Sign up as a gold member.
Take the online movement method course.
It's in 40 countries.
Let us know how it goes for you.
We really want to know.
We really want to help people like
me, people like you, out there
live their best life, to live
free, ride free, see what happens.
Charlotte Wittbom: Well, I think the,
when you work the horses from the
ground, when you slow movements down-
Mm ⦠if we think of the first pattern
of moving haunches around a cone
Rupert Isaacson: Effectively
a sort of shoulders in leg
yield hybrid in the circles.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
I would even say that just doing,
if you have the four cones, just a
quarter turn, there's so many little
things that are happening in the body.
So in my experience of, of, of the
ground work where you sort of first
start with the bigger movements, if
you think that you move the haunches
around the cones, full circles, and you
do then the, the, the, the two, which
is the shoulders around the haunches.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Charlotte Wittbom: What I'm almost got
to realize now with the experience,
of course, with the help of learning
more about the biomechanics and of
course with working with a lot of
different physios, and that'sâ¦
has been incredible feedback and
incredible learning experience for
me, is that actually it's in the
end almost the smaller movements
that makes that bigger difference.
If we just take, like, a half halt
for instance, if you ask 10 different
riders, they will probably explain
that a little bit differently-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm
⦠Charlotte Wittbom: what a half halt is.
We, we sort of know what a, you know,
what, what a half halt is, but if
you have then a cob or a Thoroughbred
or a Lusitanos, Lusitano, and then
sit on that horse and ask that
horse to wait a little bit, you're
gonna get very different results.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Charlotte Wittbom: So even to be able to
break down for a horse that what is the
half halt is that you shift the weight
to the haunches and then, you know, you,
you, you, you sort of slow everything
down a little bit and you, the horse
have to tilt their pelvis in a, in a, in
order to lift the withers, for instance.
That half halt is what you get, that
kind of same pattern or that kind of
same happening in the body is what
you get in a quarter turn, and then-
Yeah ⦠the horse goes forward.
So the ability b- to be able to break
things down for the horse and the rider
in even those, even smaller parts of the
jigsaw, it's what makes a huge difference
afterwards in the bigger picture.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
I so agree
⦠Charlotte Wittbom: things that we, and
that we think that the horses already
are pre-programmed to understand
what a half halt is, is, is not.
Some horses will do it easy
because they're built uphill
and they can naturally sort of
get themselves in that position.
But if you have a, a cob for
instance or, or another breed
that is, it is not natural.
So when you do a half halt, they just
either, just the neck comes back f-
on you or they're just trying to do-
Right ⦠something- Yeah ⦠that
they not really understand.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Charlotte Wittbom: So it's lots of
little th- concepts, a lot of concepts
is probably the better way to understand
it that gets explained from the ground
in a way that it can't do ridden.
I- The concept of in- inside leg to the
outside rein is another thing as well.
Rupert Isaacson: Talk to us about that.
Why is that-
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: so- How is that
ex- introduced on the ground?
Charlotte Wittbom: Because you're
moving the horse away from your
stick, which is like your prolonged
arm, so the horse understand how
to start and stop with the stick.
But f- the, the, the concept of the
horse being able to move away and moving
forward for your inside leg, because
there, there are a lot of things that
it's sort of the same cues, but it means
a bit different depending on, on, on what
position we're putting the horses in.
So in position, I mean where, where we
sort of place the pole and the flexion.
And so I think there's little things
like how the, for the horse to
learn to be able to move forward and
moving into an outside connection-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
⦠Charlotte Wittbom: is also one thing
that sometimes some horses, especially if
they have physical difficulties or it's
been injuries or even for the younger
horses, are a concept that, a- and for
riders as well, to understand- Yeah
what those concepts are.
So as well as the, of course, the
getting the horse more gymnastic
from the ground, getting the horseâ¦
I get a lot of people that ask me,
"Can you teach my horse piaffe?"
And I, sort of, always bring
them back to the cones first,
because I need a language.
Sure.
I need a con- Absolutely.
The horse need to be-
Rupert Isaacson: Well, pattern
one- ⦠prepared ⦠plus
pattern two is the piaffe.
Yeah.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: So,
Charlotte Wittbom: yeah.
It's a, it's the preparation for it.
But also, I need to be able
to fine comb the horse,
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
⦠Charlotte Wittbom: to understand how
the horse is understanding to use,
how they understand to use themselves.
Because if I put themself then by that
position by the wall between me and the
wall to do piaffe, if a horse have all the
right understandings and, and the correct
connections and, and the different choices
in their head and in their body, then they
will be able to give me different kind of
answers without being stressed about it.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Charlotte Wittbom: So I, I think it's
very important, I always say that to my
clients, that i- if I have, if I know
that on this question, if I'm asking
the horse something, that the horse
can, gives me five or different answers,
then I know- Mm ⦠that the horse have
different ways of using their body.
They know- Mm-hmm
in their brain that they
got different ways of using.
So it's just different answers I
get t- on, on the question and, and
nothing needs to be wrong, in a way.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Charlotte Wittbom: But that's when you
then get a horse that is not stressed
in the situation of, of being in a
position where you're then gonna ask
it to perform movements that would be-
before be more flight related or bringing
in more, more cortisol in the brain.
Mm.
So I think it's, it's, it's those
little things of even just starting
with a half turn, half, quarter turn
around the cones, being able to move
forward out of that, going into that
again, going forward- Mm ⦠going in.
That soft movement in the pelvis-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
⦠Charlotte Wittbom: and that soft
movement i- in, through the ribcage-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm
Charlotte Wittbom: uh, is-
Just as important as the
full circle, if not more, I
Rupert Isaacson: think 100â¦
If not more.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Because it's,
it's the full circle broken down.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, it, it's
interesting what you talk about slowness.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: One of the things
I love about the in-hand work is it
happens at the human walking pace.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: And the human walking
pace is the human- Mm ⦠thinking pace.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And when you're in
riding lessons, even in walk, honestly-
Mm ⦠you're generally walking
faster than the human walking pace.
Yeah, yeah.
If you're in trot, you're twice
as fast, three times as fast.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So our
reactions are not there and- No
s- also we're in a blind spot
when we sit on the horse.
We- Yeah ⦠we can't see.
Charlotte Wittbom: No.
Rupert Isaacson: So we can
establish feel over some years-
Mm ⦠but this takes some years.
Mm-hmm.
But of course on the ground
we can see what's going on.
Mm ⦠is the head this way or that way?
Is this leg- Mm ⦠coming under or not?
Mm-hmm.
Are the haunches going out if I
want them to or not, you know?
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I, I've got time, and
then if, if the answer is no they're
not, then there's time- Mm ⦠to
think, well, okay, what do I do?
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Rather, "Oh,
shit, the corner's coming up.
Oh my God."
Yeah, yeah.
"And the guy's shouting at me."
Yeah.
"What did he say?"
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And then the
horses as, also, yes, can slow down.
And I always feel too that when one
is working that way, one's building
relationship with horses- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
um, in a way that you can't
really from the saddle.
No, no.
But it tra- then that r- that tr-
relationship translates to the saddle.
Mm.
And then finally I think this is just
overlooked, any time that a horse is
trying to learn something- Mm ⦠while
at the same time carrying a weight-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: that weight
is a massive distraction.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm, mm.
Rupert Isaacson: It has to be.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: So why not slow it down-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: allow the horse-
Mm ⦠and the human- Mm ⦠to figure
this thing out together- Mm ⦠without
any additional- Variable stresses
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
Rupert Isaacson: And then
when it's understood-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: now we can think,
"Well, what would it feel like
if we added a weight to that?"
Mm.
What would it feel like?
Oh, maybe that feels a bit different.
Okay.
Mm.
Yeah, I've got ti- but I sort of
trust the situation now because-
Yeah ⦠my experiences have
been good so far, you know, and
there's no one yelling because, y-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: you know, o- one, one
so often hears- Yeah ⦠instructors say
and this is a big red flag for me, you
know, "I love horses/dogs/non-humans-
But I hate humans."
And it's like, yeah, but-
Yeah ⦠you're teaching humans.
So and if- Yeah ⦠you're yelling
at humans- ⦠or if you're not
sympathetic towards humans, do you not-
Yeah ⦠think that the s- stressed
out human that is sitting on that
horse because they're stressed- Yeah
⦠because they feel threatened by you-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm-hmm
Rupert Isaacson: that that's not going
to be- Yeah ⦠noticed by the horse?
And so if you really love horses, surely-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: you would
adapt your style for humans-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: because the
horse is gonna feel human fear-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: and anxiety.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So surely real love of
horse means- Mm ⦠being as sympathetic
as possible to the human, you know?
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So I feel
that with ground work, all of
that is almost like a given-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: because
it happens slowly.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: It, it, you don't have
to project your voice because if you're
the instructor, you're normally standing-
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: two feet away, you know?
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson:
Everything is Piano, piano.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
Before it goes- But then every-
ev- and everyone can do it Yes
it doesn't matter of any- So
true ⦠riding levels at all.
You, everyone can do it.
Rupert Isaacson: So
Charlotte Wittbom: true.
And, and I also think what's ver- very
important to understand is that just like
us, horses have compensation patterns.
So we can't help the
horse to get stronger.
Like, for instance, if, if you have
a good physio that helps to release
the, the, the, the tension as soon as
that horse sometimes are out in the
field under saddle again, the horse
will just m- use themselves as it
always have used itself because- Mm
it doesn't know any other way.
They, the horses take the easier way.
So I also, I think with the groundwork
what you can do is you can get, go into
those compensation patterns slowly.
Mm.
You can see a bit how the horse is maybe
offloading or, or- Mm ⦠how, how the
horse is, it's you know, struggle or, i-
the horse is maybe think, you know, taking
the more difficult path because the body
doesn't allow to take it any other way.
And I think this is also another really
important thing with the compensate-
because we have to understand
all the horse's stiffnesses and
difficulties are there for a reason.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Charlotte Wittbom: To supple a horse
is not, is not go in and turn it it's a
bit more stiff to the, find it difficult
to turn to the left, and therefore I'm
gonna turn it even more to the left.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Charlotte Wittbom: It's to understand
that the stiffnesses are there, and
we have to unpick slowly, and we have
to always work with the body first.
Mm.
So when a physio goes in, they don't go
in and release everywhere 'cause they
will make the horse lame in that way.
Mm-hmm.
They have to understand its
layers, isn't, isn't it?
Mm.
Understand what's important, understand
what's there to support the horse.
And that is another thing that I've
really learnt and, and, and also
been curious about, how, how the
groundwork can help with those things.
As, as helping to change a way
of how a horse moves- Mm ⦠and
again, getting that ability.
And the other thing that's so important,
I think, with the groundwork is a lot
of people think if you look at natural
horsemanship and groundwork, that, you
know, you're moving the horse around,
and yes, it's, it's, it's communication,
but for muscles to develop, you al- you
need to create the resistance So if we
go back to just moving four cones and a
quarter turn, haunches and then straight,
every time I do that quarter turn, I
increase the resistance in the body.
And then when the horse goes
straight, I take that resistance off.
And then when I do a quarter
turn again, I do that.
And then when I slowly then build up that
to a full circle, it's the same thing.
I can, I can start with just
one circle and then go forward.
And it's that thing of creating
resistance and the release, creating
the resistance and then the release that
helps the horse, the muscles to develop.
So you need to create resistance as well.
Yeah.
You need to create a posture.
But when you have it from the ground,
you can only, because you, we never want
to use force, and I don't think anyone
use force y- you know, a, a lot of the
times it's just because we don't have
any other way of thinking or, or, or
seeing, you know, any other options.
And therefore w- w- we want, we, we maybe
get, becomes too much hand or whatever.
But i- I think with the groundwork,
you can only work with what you have,
so the horse will only go into a
posture that it can do, and that is
it's so valuable for both the horse
and the rider because it means that
I will not go too deep too quickly.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Charlotte Wittbom: I will
not do too much too quickly.
Mm-hmm.
But also that I do have that ability to
create the resistance in the muscles-
Mm-hmm ⦠that then of course will
help them to strengthen and, and- Mm.
.. and get a better posture.
Rupert Isaacson: So now you're back in
the competition world to some degree.
And, Well, yeah, not-
are you competing at the moment?
Charlotte Wittbom: No, I'm not competing.
I've got a horse that's coming
over soon that we are hoping for.
Mm-hmm.
I'm not competing, but a lot of my
clients now is competitive riders as well
as, as all kind of riders, of course.
But I do think that together with the
physios that I worked with, especially
Rachel, but also other physios, with
sort of them recommending this w-
working from the ground, I think
that- th- th- is definitely interest
and a much more of an understanding
from that world as well to, to work.
Because it's a nicer horse to sit
on in the end- Mm ⦠when you
have done this, the, the sessions.
Rupert Isaacson: 100%.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And also a horse that's,
that doesn't get injured, hopefully.
Yeah,
Charlotte Wittbom: exactly.
You know?
Because they know how to deal
with themselves in the field and
they know- Mm-hmm ⦠they have
a better control of themselves-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm
Charlotte Wittbom: which
it is in the, in the end.
And also that again, if we go back to
any athlete, if you, if I think even
football players do a bit of Pilates,
you know- Mm ⦠it's, it's, it's,
it, it, it's about keeping the, theâ¦
A lot of people know in, in,
in competition, in competition
as well that you need to keep
things as, as varied as possible.
Rupert Isaacson: And- Right.
And that you know, the, one
of the big words at the moment
is- Yeah ⦠tensegrity.
Yeah ⦠and biotensegrity 'cause
of course- Yeah ⦠tensegrity comes
from architecture- Yeah ⦠and
engineering- Yeah ⦠meaning
how a building hangs together-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm ⦠from the inside.
Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: And now biotensegrity,
meaning how do our muscles, ligaments,
not just our bones keep that sort of
tension in relaxation, which is- Yeah
effectively wellbeing.
Yeah ⦠of course, all of this work
that you've just described does this.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Now, however,
you and I both know that the
competition world is a tricky world.
So there's, I always feel that there's
dressage, as in dressing a horse-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: in the, you know,
you'll hear Master Louise saying-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
Rupert Isaacson: "We, we
address the horse now."
And of course what that means
in old French, old Norman
French, is to put together.
You can put together- Mm ⦠a
salad, a salad dressing.
Yourself, you, you get dressed.
You can cut your epidermis and-
Mm ⦠put a dressing on it.
Mm-hmm.
Why always this word?
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: It just
means to put together.
Mm.
So what do we mean when
that means of a horse?
Well, it just means going from a
long silhouette where you can move
in two dimensions, point A to point
B- Mm ⦠to a shorter silhouette
where they put the hind legs under-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: so that they
can move in three dimensions,
and why do they wanna do that?
Well, they do that in nature when
they play, when they fight- Mm
and when they flirt.
And very clever people 6,000 years ago
went, "Ooh, maybe we could harness that,"
and look- Yeah ⦠one leg goes under
and the other leg goes under- Yeah ⦠so
let's create some systems for that.
Yeah.
And we've been doing it ever since.
It's one thing to do that, and that's
of course what you've just described.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: And it's a
whole other thing to add stress.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: And I feel
that one of the difficulties
about competition in any form-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: is that
stress is automatic.
So- You know, i- i- it's anything
that not just in the horse world
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm-hmm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: if you go in front
of a judge and you're going to be
judged on whether you suck or not-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
Rupert Isaacson: that fear
is going to be present.
Yeah.
And I re- Mm ⦠you know, when, when
I go and I watch a dressage teacher say
something like, "Well, that would only
get you a five in front of a judge."
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And you think, "Yes,
but the horse doesn't think that way."
The horse thinks-
Charlotte Wittbom: No
⦠" Rupert Isaacson: Am I doing this thing?"
In harmony with my monkey or not.
And I-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: kind of want
a relationship with my monkey,
but at the same time- Mm ⦠I
don't really understand my
monkey, 'cause monkeys are weird.
Mm.
And monkeys eat us, and- Mm ⦠monkeys
sit on us, and- Mm ⦠strange things,
and they make us do things that we
don't necessarily want to do, but-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: You know,
sometimes we do, you know?
Mm.
But you know that the horse,
and, you know, and you also know
that the horse isn't thinking of
itself as, "I'm a dressage horse."
Mm.
Like-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: no dressage horse would
give a shit whether it pulled a cart or-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: went to the field or-
Yeah ⦠th- there's no self-concept
of- No ⦠you know, "Well, I was in
the Olympics last year," you know?
Mm.
They're, they're not
gonna say that, but we do.
Mm.
So any time we bring
that, what does that mean?
It means we're going to bring cortisol.
We're gonna bring-
Mm ⦠the stress hormone.
Mm.
And we're first gonna
bring it in our bodies.
I mean, you described- Mm ⦠the
feeling of falling apart in
competition even if you did- Mm
well.
Yeah.
I've certainly experienced that.
Yeah.
And I don't think it was particularly
pleasant for the horses underneath me.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: Whereas my wife, for
example, Liliana, when she shows a horse,
she has a different temperament to mine.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: And it doesn't
seem to affect her in the same way.
So I think the horse genuinely
has a more pleasurable experience.
So- Mm ⦠I don't think
I should show horses.
No.
I think I should be involved
with horses in a different way.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So
competition isn't wrong.
Charlotte Wittbom: No.
Rupert Isaacson: However, there is a
certain amount of stress that has to
come inevitably- Mm ⦠when humans
compare themselves against other humans.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: And then if
you add a- an animal to that
who have got no real idea- Mm
about that concept-
Mm ⦠how do we make it okay?
Now, I think- Mm ⦠all of the
ways that you've just described
do actually make it okay.
Mm.
I think that, and I think that's why the
competition people are seeking you out.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But we do
have a, a wider problem here.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: Which is, I think,
the public is beginning to notice-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
Rupert Isaacson: when
horses don't like stuff.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: And we are increasingly
being called upon to justify what we do.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: Now that you are
involved a bit in the competition
world- Mm ⦠in the UK, and I always
feel that the UK became so successful
effectively by, in dressage, after
years of being unsuccessful- Mm
effectively by out-Germaning the
Germans- Mm ⦠which is how the
Germans became very good at eventing.
They got- Mm ⦠what was his name?
Oh, gosh it'll come to me.
Begins with B.
But anyway, British Event are to
come in and school them and Bartle.
Mm.
And then they started beating
us at event at our own thing.
Yeah.
Now we've started beating
them at their own thing.
Yeah.
But we've almost become more German than
the Germans, and I'd say that the British
dressage way of riding is pretty harsh.
And I've lived- Yeah ⦠in Germany for
eight years teaching and riding and-
Mm ⦠there, and it's pretty harsh.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: It really is.
I mean- Mm ⦠you get people that are not
fantastic, of course, but the mindset is-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson:
Mm ⦠unpleasant, you know.
What, so what do we do about this?
Charlotte Wittbom: Well, I think, I
think good and bad riding is everywhere.
Rupert Isaacson: Without a doubt.
Charlotte Wittbom: So I, I think it's, it-
Rupert Isaacson: Particularly if you
look at me, I'm holding up the bad end.
Yeah.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
I th- I, I think, you know,
I think it, it, I think that,
It's very important to not
put too much we and them in a
way if change is gonna happen.
Rupert Isaacson: Of course,
of course, of course.
But we know we have a problem here.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
A- a- and I agree, and I agree
w- with that, and I think
it was quite interesting.
I was interviewing i- in my own
podcast Colonel Card, Christian Card.
Rupert Isaacson: Who is?
Charlotte Wittbom: Who, who
is the former chief rider of
Cadre Noir in Saumur in France.
He himself is an fâ¦
was an FEI judge.
He competed internationally himself as
well, and he was also a, a trainer of the
French team during years where they were
very, very successful in the dressage.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Charlotte Wittbom: And I interviewed
him, and I took him over here to
the UK and created event where
we had a lot of different judges,
a lot of different physios and
listened to parts from that podcast.
And I think what he really ha- have
right, I mean, what he was saying
is that we need to understand where
we c- come from, a culture, in order
to know where we are heading to.
You know, the, the, the reason why
we're riding, what are we doing?
And he, in his, i- in this interview, had
more questions than answers, and I think
that is so important is the questions.
And I listened to a radio program the
other day as well where they would say,
"Where does learning and change happen?"
It's actually not when we get an answer.
It's in the question.
You know a three-year-old
that ask, what, "What's that?
Why?"
You know, pointing everywhere, or
two and a half, and want to know.
And quite often they are on the
next one before they know the
answer of, of what we're saying.
And that learning that, that is the
curiosity of, of, of of the subject or
of what we want to learn, that is where,
where, where we don't always need the
answers, and it can be 10 different
answers to- Mm-hmm ⦠that question.
And I think w-
Rupert Isaacson: But not
in the competition world.
In the competition world there's
one right, and there's one wrong.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
But different judges you will probably
get a bit of different bet- between
them- Yeah ⦠and background.
But
Rupert Isaacson: basically,
basic- come on, basically the
dressage, sport dressage world-
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: through a historical
accident is a breed show for warmbloods.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And, I understand
Charlotte Wittbom: fully
⦠Rupert Isaacson: and, and, and
it's got to look a certain way.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah,
yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And if it doesn't,
not much point going in and-
Yeah ⦠a lot of the people doing the
judging- Yeah ⦠aren't very nice.
But,
Charlotte Wittbom: but I,
Rupert Isaacson: I do- You know, so how do
we, how do we, how do we get- Yeah, yeah.
I, I like the idea of where
you're going with the questions,
but, you know, so, so yeah.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah, but I
think we still, we have to continue
asking the questions, I think.
Mm.
Continue creating environment whereâ¦
Because I have a lot of judges as
well that I'm, I, I, I, that I'm
t-talking to regularly and everything,
and I think the, the main thing
of course, change is difficult.
Of course, it's, it's nothing in the
world is, is black and white and is easy.
But I do think that by putting
the difficult questions,
what is it that we want?
This is very much from what
Colina Card was saying.
Mm.
You know, what, is the competition
there to preserve their question
at, or is it there as its own thing?
And I think those questions, to be
able to have an open dialogue- Mm
uh, you know, in between FEI themselves
or, or, or as an instructor you
say, "Okay, you know, what, whatâ¦
Is this susta-sustainable?"
I always tell m-my clients and also
the, the judges I have that when
you see a movement, can you see
it's sustainable for the horse?
Well- Mm ⦠is the sustainability there
that the horse can last for that work?
Is them in that balance- Mm ⦠that
not six months down the line that's
gonna give suspensory problems, but
actually the horse can continue working
in that kind of balance and that
kind of thing position or whatever.
So I think there's a lot of words and a
lot of questions and a lot of difficultâ¦
But that, that is something, as
I'm sure you know, and you do, you
question yourself all the time.
You know, is this the right way?
Am I doing this?
Are there more different ways?
So to have, to create an environment where
it's safe to have those conversations
are very, very important, I think.
Rupert Isaacson: And is
that happening in the
Charlotte Wittbom: competition world?
And we can only start in our little-
I think it does to a certain extent.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, no.
So, so talk to me about that.
I, I, I'd like- Yeah ⦠to
feel optimistic.
Yeah, I think it does.
So where, where do you notice that
happening in the conversation?
Yeah.
Charlotte Wittbom: Well, just the
group that I brought together when- Mm
⦠Colonel Card came over, for instance, were
mostly from, it was a lot of competitive
riders, a lot of judges, and there is an
openness t- to it to, to different ways.
I think that, like I said, there's
always gonna be people that are less
open and people that are more open.
Mm.
I cannot speak for a higher level.
It's my little sphere, so I don't know
what's going on in the- Right ⦠the,
Rupert Isaacson: the- I, I
guess- ⦠really- ⦠I guess
my question is wha- what is the
openness, what are they open to?
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: If there's a change
happen- happening and, you know, you're
optimistic about this, what is the change-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: in, among the
judges and so on that, that youâ¦
Yeah, what, what are
they changing towards?
Charlotte Wittbom: I think that just,
just having more different ways ofâ¦
If we go back to Portugal-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
⦠Charlotte Wittbom: for instance,
where they know exactly why they are
riding, they know exactly the, theâ¦
It's in their blood.
They have a history where every-
where they they keep to what
was, to the past in a way, if-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm
⦠Charlotte Wittbom: you know, to what was-
Rupert Isaacson: Tradition.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah, tradition.
They have no identity problems of,
of what that tradition, tradition is.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Charlotte Wittbom: If you go to somewhere
else where you have a, a a bit more
I don't know, you know, Sweden where,
where you sort of everyone rides for
compete because they don't have any
other way of, of, of seeing theâ¦
It's, it's what they come from.
They always had it that way.
I read that many, you know, the history
lacking often on the ways of, of doing it.
So I think the, the more youâ¦
What I see is that there is
an openness of, of change.
I, I don't think no one is not
wanting to be a better rider.
I'm sure there are some, but
you know, that there is aâ¦
I just think that it's important we
create a, a way of communication and
talking and have different kind of views.
Just look at social media at the moment.
We just see what we already approve.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Charlotte Wittbom: What we already like.
What we- Mm ⦠already understand.
Our world is never weâ¦
I don't need to go and meet someone that
say that something is black when I think
it's white if I'm not s- seeking it out.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Charlotte Wittbom: So I think that-
Rupert Isaacson: No, I agree.
I, I, no- Yeah ⦠I think
everything you're saying is true.
I'm just- Yeah ⦠what I'm curious
about is what is the, let's say, is
there a particular positive change
that you could point to right now?
Yeah, I think so.
I
Charlotte Wittbom: can
Rupert Isaacson: definitely
see it in my world.
But, but could you identify it
and you say, "The positive change
that I, Charlotte, see-" Yeah
"currently in the British
dressage world is this."
What, what would it be?
Charlotte Wittbom: Well, I, I
think there is lots of Openness of
groundwork that I- Okay ⦠have seen.
Definitely.
Again, my little world.
I'm not speaking about elite here.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Charlotte Wittbom: There,
there's a, there's definitely
openness of the groundwork.
There's definitely an openness of having
sustainability in it because- Okay
the horses can last.
It- there's definitely an understanding
from physios that we need more bits in
order for the horses to, to improve.
And there is definitely a openness of
sitting down and and, Talking, I think.
So yeah, I, I, but I'm, I'm always a pos-
I'm very- Yeah ⦠an optimistic person
because I can't go and s- and why am I
going to my work in that case if I don't
think that what I'm gonna give- Right.
Rupert Isaacson: And it's
Charlotte Wittbom: so
for- ⦠can make a, make a,
Rupert Isaacson: a change I,
I, I would agree with you.
And, and so I'm just, really where my
que- Yeah ⦠questions are coming from
is curiosity of what are you noticing?
So for example, I'm off on
three days from now I'm gonna
go do some workshops in the USA.
And some of those will be-
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah
Rupert Isaacson: therapeutic, some
of those will be sort of classical
for its own art sort of sake.
Mm-hmm.
And some of, one or two of
those will be with sport riders.
And I noticed- Yeah ⦠myself in
the last four years maybe, but with
a real acceleration- Mm ⦠in, say,
the last two years, that where the
sport riders generally would have
been a bit skeptical of me, Yeah
I don't have a sport background, I, you
know, the, all the, all the rational
reasons- Mm ⦠that they began to get
a lit, some of them, a little curious.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And then perhaps
there was a session where something
was made a little easier for them.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And particularly if
it, it was something in a difficult
movement like a piaffe, you know?
Like- Mm ⦠so for example, you might
often see a horse that's afraid of
the piaffe and a bit cramped and s- Mm
⦠shuffling and, and s- and say, "Look, we
could actually unlock this- Mm ⦠and
turn this into the joyful thing that it-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: exists in nature.
Mm-hmm.
But in order to do that, we need
to dismount, and we need- Yeah
to take it back- Yeah ⦠to the
beginning- Yeah ⦠and break
it down into all its little
parts as you just described.
Mm-hmm.
Are you up for this?
And generally- Mm ⦠the
answer was no, you know?
And then occasionally s- one person
would say, "Well, okay," you know?
And you do it, and then there'd be-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: a good result.
And then so, okay, people say, "Okay.
Well, fine.
Let's, why don't we give it a try?"
Mm.
And then you begin to see
the ripples coming out.
So I've, I definitely found that
myself, Even up to two years ago, going
around as a dressage dude wearing that
hat, if you didn't have a competition
background, people were skeptical of you.
Mm-hmm.
And now, it's almost a plus factor.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: That people are almost
getting skeptical of the competition.
It sort of- Yeah ⦠shifted a bit.
Yeah.
Now the danger of that is, of course,
180 degree swings are never good, right?
Mm-hmm.
You always want to hit
that spot in the middle.
But I am definitely seeing a recognition-
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: that the
current way of doing it-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
Rupert Isaacson: isn't sustainable.
Charlotte Wittbom: No.
Rupert Isaacson: Not just for
horses, but also as an institution.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: S- so therefore,
why not look for alternatives?
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: As you may know,
if you've been following my work,
we are also horsey folk here.
And we have been training horses for
many, many years in the manner of
the old classical dressage masters.
This is something which is
often very confusing for people.
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Charlotte Wittbom: Well, I, I think
in the end of the day, i- i- it's when
you meet a, a, a client or you are
teaching, you have to start to be curious.
Mm.
Or I'm first curious of how
that person is thinking and- Mm
and want to understand.
Because I think if we have, if I
have that understanding or if we have
that understanding, then we can also
help with the input that- is possible
to change, if that makes sense.
I- i- i- it's always, again, you're
creating something new all the time.
Mm.
I'm not sitting on all the answers.
I'm definitely have a lot of things
that I get wrong in my riding.
Mm.
I definitely- Me too ⦠haven't
gotten the, the, been on a holy path.
I can't say that this is the, the only
path, and this is the path that is
not going, because I can't say that.
I, I, I- Mm ⦠I cannot.
But what I can do is put 10 different
people together in the same room that
have completely different pathways
and different journeys and different
things, and one has maybe a horse where
they feel that they're a bit scared
about, and therefore they hold on a
bit extra because they don't know.
And they're probably not
even knowing it themselves.
They don't really- Mm ⦠enjoy
to sit on that horse.
Mm.
But that is the journey,
and competing is the thing-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
⦠Charlotte Wittbom: that,
that it's in there.
I, I think the only way of, of,
of reaching to something different
is that I need to be curious about
that person first and see what- Mm
what goes on in their mind, what is it
with the horse, what is it with the thing.
And then suddenly you start to
have a bit of a conversation, and
you start to say, "Well, should
we try this way or the other way?"
And I think this is so important
that there is that way because
otherwise it's very easy toâ¦
It becomes a black-and-white argument.
And yes, does the competition
world need to change?
Yes, it needs to change, but there's a
lot of different things in the world that
needs to change- Sure ⦠at the moment.
You know?
Yeah.
We, we sit in a lot of difficult
positions at the moment in all
different- Mm ⦠kind of things.
So i- i- it's important, I
think, that it's, it's, i- i-
the curiosity has to come first.
Mm.
And then you can say,
"How can we change things?
How can we create something
that is a bit more sustainable?"
Mm.
Or there is a bit more things.
Because otherwise it, it's just
gonna be more walls and more small
world than what we are looking.
Yeah.
So of course you and I will know that
our Instagram or, or Facebook feed will
look very, very different to someone
else that is in a, in a Western world or-
Rupert Isaacson: Sure
Charlotte Wittbom: that is in
natural horsemanship world or
is in a, a trotting world in-
Mm ⦠Sweden or a racing world- Mm.
Mm-mm ⦠or competitive world.
Mm-hmm.
So we don't really
know, I think, properly.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's
interesting that you, that's actually
brings up an interesting point.
Mm.
I think, I know, actually, I don't
think, and I think you know this
too, that the system from, that came
down from Marialva and La Gavinière-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
Rupert Isaacson: which before that had
come from guys in the 17th century-
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: like Pignatelli and
Delabre- Mm ⦠which before that
had come from guys who'd come over-
Yeah ⦠to Italy from Spain because-
Mm ⦠the House of Aragon took over
the Kingdom of Naples so they could have
a crack at the papacy, and they did.
Mm ⦠back to the riders before
then, back to the trainers, you
know, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And you go back to Xenophon and then you
go back- Mm ⦠to Kikuli in 1350 BC-
Yeah ⦠and you realize that all these
dudes basically been doing the same thing.
And-
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: w- we
get that inherited line.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: And then you've had this
experience, I know, where you realize,
oh, I see, if you do these patterns-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: and you
do them on the ground-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
Rupert Isaacson: then it can prepare
the horse for any discipline at all.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: And the horse
can be multidisciplinary.
Mm.
And the really good riders, of
course, are always multidisciplinary.
To limit oneself to just say, not only
am I only a dressage rider, but I'm only
this kind of dressage rider, or not only
am I only a Western rider, but I'm only
this sub-discipline of Western pleasure,
or not only am I only a race rider- Mm
but I'm only the- You know that
all those old masters did the lot.
You look at their books- Mm ⦠and
you go, "Oh my gosh, they were training
horses for carriages, for the hunt field,
for battle, for parades, for the king
who couldn't ride anymore 'cause he was
so sick with gout, so he effectively
needed a, you know, therapy horse."
Mm.
Th- they were doing it all.
And you stand there, Charlotte,
you, you, you have the system
at your fingertips- Mm.
Mm.
Mm ⦠I know you do.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: Which is
completely multidisciplinary.
So you've, of course it lends
itself beautifully to dressage.
Yeah.
Because it lends itself to
collection and extension.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: But it's so
much greater than dressage.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: Because you're
like, why are you dressing
a horse in the first place?
Mm.
You dress it so that it
can go and do things.
Mm.
One of those things might be
a balletic abstract display of
patterns in a rectangular arena-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: with a
person wearing a funny hat.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: Or it could be in
front of a bull, or it could be,
it could look like many things.
It could look like
working- Mm ⦠equitation.
So you really do, I think, more
than most people that I interview-
Mm ⦠truly understand that the root
of all the disciplines- Yeah ⦠really
is this old system, you know?
Yeah.
Y- you mostly obviously are gonna
be working with dressage-y people or
working equitation-y people and so on.
Mm.
But really anyone could come
to you, like, with a jumper.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah, yeah.
With a, you
Rupert Isaacson: know,
Charlotte Wittbom: and- Anyone.
Yeah.
I get lots of different, Yeah ⦠n-
don't need to be competitive.
And if we go back again, I'm gonna be
difficult, but- Please ⦠if with,
with the patterns for instance, there
will be horses that can never do the
patterns because of you know, injuries
or because of, of, of things as well.
So I think, again, it's
one of those things.
You have a method, but-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
⦠Charlotte Wittbom: but y- you will
have to always adapt depending on the-
Yeah ⦠situation and bring inâ¦
So in the end of the day, what we want
is, is the, to equip, of course, people
with as many different ways of working
their horses as possible, as well as- Mm
for the horses to have a, a method that
works for them and, and a way that works.
But I think- In the end of the day,
it's the communication, and that looks
different from everyone and what that
goal is of being in a environment
where, where it makes sense what we
are doing and why we're doing things.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Charlotte Wittbom: It,
it's just as important.
Rupert Isaacson: So you, you bring it
down to curiosity and communication,
which is really relationship, right?
Charlotte Wittbom: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Here's a thing which
definitely stands out in the dressage
world and I think this can also be true
down a bit in Portugal, is people take
it really fucking seriously, right?
Hmm.
And they do forget that
they're monkeys with ponies.
Charlotte Wittbom: Hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And that one of the
reasons for this historically was that
in Europe in particular, Northern Europe
the whole classical riding thing was
imported originally- Hmm ⦠from Asia.
Hmm.
And anything that needs to be
imported is expensive, so the
Greeks who brought it in from P- Hmm
Persia- Hmm ⦠had to bring in the
Persian teachers, the Persian horses,
the equipment, da, da, da, da, da.
So of course only the wealthy could do it.
Hmm.
So from, well, 400, 500 BC, in Europe
it's been associated with status.
Charlotte Wittbom: Hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: In- to the point that
in the Roman Senate- Hmm ⦠you could
only be a senator if you were part of
the equestrian class, which meant- Hmm
that you had the ri- enough
land, basically, to keep horses.
Hmm.
But then of course down in somewhere
like Portugal and Spain where you had
an indigenous type of very good horse-
Hmm ⦠with tribes down there who
were just riding these horses and-
Yeah ⦠now then the Romans and the
Greeks show up and go, "Wow, these horses
are better than the Persian horses.
Amazing.
Let's, you know, let's import that again."
Mm-hmm.
Y- and then you go down to Spain
and Portugal and okay, the pe-
it's just the local guys doing it-
Mm-hmm ⦠having a wonderful time.
However, there's stillâ¦
And, and, and there you might
find a bit more lightheartedness.
Hmm.
One of the things, though,
I think is often missing-
Charlotte Wittbom: Hmm
Rupert Isaacson: you know, people
talk about lightness a lot.
Charlotte Wittbom: Hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: You and I both know
that the system that you're using
creates lightness- Hmm ⦠for sure.
Charlotte Wittbom: Hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: But I don't
believe it's possible to ride with
lightness if you're heavy of heart.
Charlotte Wittbom: Hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And what I mean,
not you're heartbroken or something.
Charlotte Wittbom: Hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: But if you're generally-
a bit of a bitter, heavy person that
horses themselves are quite like- That's
Charlotte Wittbom: very
judgmental, Rupert.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, indeed.
Indeed.
But it's, itâ¦
Let's say it's discerning
because, because it- Very
Charlotte Wittbom: judgmental.
Rupert Isaacson: Because, because
one observes this, you know.
One observes that there's an awful lot,
n- come on, there's a lot of judgmentalism
in the horse world, and you can't be
a light rider if you're judgmental.
You can't be light in anything
if your heart is not light.
It, because the horse is gonna feel that.
As you say, it's communication.
So- Yeah ⦠so I guess that is in a,
in a funny way my, my next question
to you, is observing that, and you
and I both know that this is true.
How I think this is one of the
problems with sustainability.
I think that the- Mm
heavy-heartedness and the sort of status
projecting thing with horses is beginning
to make our culture non-sustainable.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: We aren't
sympathetic really to the outsider
who looks at us very much.
Mm.
Except sometimes.
As you say, if you go down to
the Golga Horse Fair, if you go
to an Irish horse fair, suddenly
it all feels very light-hearted.
But you and I both know, if you enter
a dressage arena, it does not feel
or look light-hearted at all, and no
one is making fart jokes and dancing
around doing silly things, and if they
do they might not be invited back.
So that I do think is actually a
bit of a problem, and you kn- you
have this correctly observed that-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
Rupert Isaacson: communication and
relationship and curiosity are key.
And we also know that when we
look at horses, they behave in
this rather light-hearted way.
They don't take life very seriously.
They're playful.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
But there isn't a lot of playfulness to
the whole dressage thing at the moment.
Charlotte Wittbom: No.
Rupert Isaacson: No.
Do you think that'sâ¦
I don't think that's judgmental.
I think that's just observational.
I would love to see more
light-heartedness and playfulness in it.
I think it'd be nicer for the horse.
Yeah.
How do you- Yeah ⦠see, 'cause
y- you, you really learned that
system that does bring joy.
How do you see that changing,
and how do you see bringing that
lightness of heart in to things?
Charlotte Wittbom: Well, again, I don't
think that if people are not l- we
all have our different ghosts in our-
Rupert Isaacson: Naturally
Charlotte Wittbom: I- in our,
and again, we don't know what
any person have gone through
Rupert Isaacson: Sure
⦠Charlotte Wittbom: and is going through
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed Everyone
has their fires to put out,
Charlotte Wittbom: for
sure That is, so I, so yes.
So we don't know.
So I think, again, in my own picture, I
think always when I go into environment
where I feel that you, you, you feel a bit
of a difficult atmosphere or a difficult-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
Charlotte Wittbom: um, situation,
or you see that this person is not
really enjoying it, you have to start
with, with empathy, I think first.
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed
Charlotte Wittbom: And, and curiosity
again, asking, because we, we
don't know what's going on inside.
And I think that the, in many ways,
lessons is a bit of therapy at the same
time as it is about learning new methods.
But it's very much- Mm ⦠a- also
about understanding yourself because
quite often if we not put words on
difficult emotions in, in in ourselves-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
⦠Charlotte Wittbom: we will not be
aware that they exist, and then it's
q- quite easy to project instead.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Charlotte Wittbom: And that projection
can be on your partner or, or,
or on your horse, or- Or yourself
instructor or yourself or whatever.
Mm.
So I think again, it's, it's,
it's we're much more complex human
beings and much more difficulty.
And to be perfectly honest, the ones
I meet are Quite often if you ask
how are you a- show a bit of, of
care first, that goes a long way.
Rupert Isaacson: Of course.
Charlotte Wittbom: So I, I, I do
think that, I, I do think, yes, to
bring a bit of joy is important, and
of course I'm fully agreed that it's
important we make that two things.
But in the competition world,
or not competition world-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Charlotte Wittbom: In, in, I mean, in the
competition now they've started to do this
competing with a, without the bridle, and-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm
⦠Charlotte Wittbom: there are many
different ways working equitations.
I think here in the UK they're quite good
to make- Mm ⦠you know, a lot of fun,
funny, fun things, competition of where
you dress in different ways and you- Mm.
You know, there is something for everyone.
But I do th- I, I do think that, it, it's
a difficult subject because we don't know
what the person is going through- I have
Rupert Isaacson: a theory about why
it's so difficult ⦠yeah, yeah.
It, well, it comes out of the military.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: So, while we
practice this beautiful art-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: what we also know
is that, and horses can really
heal, obviously that's my world.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
But we also know they can really harm.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Most of the, not
through the fault of the horse-
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: but how
the horse has been used.
So we know that most of the
greatest acts of human criminality-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: from human to
human have been done either on
the back of a horse or from ships.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: So that's
generally been how it's done- Mm
because that's mobility.
Mm.
I can come from my place to your place
with maybe better technology- Mm ⦠which
in this case might be the horse.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: And,
you know, mess you up.
Mm.
And take your shit.
And it's very interesting.
I did a, a, not a podcast, but
a conversation about the German
the training manual HDV 12- Mm
which is published by Xenophon Press.
Mm.
And I know Richard Williams, the
publisher very well, he's a great guy,
and he said, "You know, Rupert, you
really should look at this book 'cause
there's a lot of good stuff in there."
And, you know, as a sort of
recovering German instructor, I
thought- Yeah ⦠yes, I should.
So I, I, I, I looked into it and
it was indeed, there was, indeed
a lot of great stuff in there.
Mm.
And, and there was effectively how
to prepare for genocide in there.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Mm, mm.
Rupert Isaacson: And there was, I partic-
This is the sort of writer saying- Mm
⦠"I participated in these genocides."
Mm.
And between the lines
it was kind of good fun.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm, mm, mm.
Rupert Isaacson: And the
pictures were of guys in
the Wehrmacht uniforms, you know- Yeah
⦠coming, and, and if you were, like, you
know, a Russian peasant looking at that
coming over the hill- Mm-hmm ⦠you
knew what was gonna happen to you.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah, yeah.
You know?
Rupert Isaacson: And, okay, my own family,
colonials, we did tons of bad shit.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: We just know
about it- Mm-hmm ⦠and I guess
express some sort of regret.
There was nothing in that book-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: that even for, like, a
second kind of went, "You know, maybe that
was kind of, you know, we were young then.
We didn't know, okay?
We were stupid."
Mm.
You know, blah, blah, blah.
There wasn't empathy.
Charlotte Wittbom: No.
Rupert Isaacson: And I've stood in
those arenas with the Prussian cavalry
officers yelling and screaming.
There's no empathy.
Charlotte Wittbom: No.
Rupert Isaacson: Zero.
No.
Zero.
Mm.
In fact, there's a desire to hurt.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: There's
sadism, pure and simple.
Yeah, yeah.
Right?
And it, and they were hurt.
They've inherited, they were
traumatized as kids- Yeah,
yeah, yeah ⦠as, as you say.
You know, sure, of course, but
the so that's kind of what I
mean by breaking that culture.
Yeah, yeah.
And I sometimes think that the only
way you can break that culture is,
is the, the greatest act of rebellion
really is silliness- Mm ⦠humor.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: Dancing around in a
clown costume and farting, you know?
Mm.
Just to say it isn't that fucking serious.
Mm.
And if we make it that serious outside
of the military context as well-
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah
Rupert Isaacson: then in a funny
way, we bring all those ghosts with.
And I think that's- Mm, mm ⦠really
what's biting our culture
in the butt really, is that-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: it looks that way.
We still dress up- Mm ⦠kind
of in the military uniforms.
We still talk to each other that way.
We still yell at each other.
We still shame each other for
doing the wrong thing in the arena.
I've observed that- Mm ⦠more
than I've observed the other stuff.
Now, you are an exception.
I've observed you teaching.
Mm-hmm.
You are, without a doubt, one
of the most empathetic people
I know in the whole industry.
Mm.
That's why I asked you to
come on the show, you know?
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So I'm not in
any way projecting that on you.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I know that you
are the absolute opposite of that.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: It's,
I'm just curious to know-
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: that you've observed
what I've observed and- What do you
see as our way forward and out of it?
Mm.
Like, I think we need a
big old dose of silliness.
I do.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I think we take
it far too seriously, butâ¦
And I don't think we necessarily
would need to give up accuracy
and the dedication to the art.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: But we just might
look at it through a different lens.
I don't know.
You know, you're involved in the field.
You are a super empathetic human.
Mm-hmm.
You know, I have so much
respect for you, Charlotte.
Mm.
You know, I, I know how kind you are.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm-hmm.
Thank you.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, just
talk, speculate with me here.
Talk to me about where we might go in
the next 20, 30 years with all this.
Charlotte Wittbom: I wish I would know.
I, I, I think the only thing that
I see at the moment is work from
the little corner, if everyone
w- for where I am in a way of- Mm
of, of havingâ¦
The more ways you have to see things,
the more different ways of you have of
Understanding yourself and
people come for the others.
And I do think there is a way
of, of there's, there's always
gonna be difficulties, but yeah.
I, I don't know if I know how that
could, how the world could be different.
I, I just do think, think, I just think
that if we have a safe environment to
talk about the difficult thing where
we, where the person, whoever that
is Is not put in a situation where
it becomes a defensive situation
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm
⦠Charlotte Wittbom: the more,
the better it will become for
both the rider and the horse.
I don't know how to put
it in any other way.
I say from
Rupert Isaacson: my- Well,
does it, does it, does it come
down to the relief of pressure?
Yeah.
And does the relief of pressure
come down to the work in hand?
Because the work, is the work
in hand the relief of pressure
for the horse from the rider?
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Definitely.
And is the work in hand the relief for the
rider from being judged on your riding?
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
I definitely think that
is one of the answers.
Mm-hmm.
Definitely.
Because you, again, when you can
see things from a different angle
and understand it out of a different
perspective- Mm-hmm ⦠you then get
more humble that there are many other
ways of seeing and understanding ways.
Of course then, you know, with the
money in the sport and with that
kind of pressure, that creates-
Mm-hmm ⦠its own problem, as it
does everywhere else in the world.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
So I don't, I think we can't be na-
be naive and think that that is not
a huge factor in, in it all also.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Charlotte Wittbom: That th- the
money and the pressure of that rather
than that it's all in the riders.
I think also there's, it's, it's, it's
much more complex than, than that.
Also, if you just think of the ordinary
rider that put enormous amount of
money, putting enormous amount of
time- Mm-hmm ⦠putting enormous
amount of perhaps family time Mm-hmm
with the horses, i- i- it's, it's a
complex, difficult scenario, isn't it?
Mm-hmm.
Because it's, what should all this
then, you know, what, what is the,
what answers will I get from that?
Or what is it, what needs inside me-
Mm-hmm ⦠am I fulfilling with with this?
So i- it's, it's, it's a, it's
very, very difficult in that sense.
But yes, ground work of course will be
a, a think it's a, a good way if, ifâ¦
That, I feel, is my mission a little bit.
Yeah.
If I could get as many people to
understand and be able to use ground
work, whatever form, you know.
That is many different kind of- Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm ⦠ways.
Natural horsemanship or whatever
method it is I think that it's,
it's one of the little missions I
have here in, in my little corner.
Rupert Isaacson: Listening to you
talk, a couple of ideas come to mind.
Mm-hmm.
I wonder if what we actually
need, you're talking to judges.
See, I don't really talkâ¦
I do, I talk to a few judges, but I
don't think they've probably listened
to me . But they might listen to you.
What I could see really helping might
be something like, or per- maybe I
should rephrase this as a question.
Do you think it would help if, let's
say in a, in a score, a dressage score-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: you got
points for horsemanship?
So for example, you got points
for, let's say you mess up.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: How did you
recover from the mess up?
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: Did you recover from
the way, the mess up in a way that
actually kind of helped your horse?
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: And you
get awarded points for that.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And if you were
awarded points for, Let's say your
groundwork was also looked at before you-
Mm ⦠got in the saddle or something.
Yeah, yeah.
Or some, some sort of preparatory thing.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Maybe it's
long-reining this, and then
you got some points for that.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And if you, so
you, you're not just the sort
of performance of the ballet.
Charlotte Wittbom: No.
Rupert Isaacson: I wonder if
then people and horses would
feel less cortisol going in-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: and therefore
could move more joyously.
Mm.
Because you're not worried, "Okay,
if I mess up, I'll still get some
points 'cause, you know, maybe Iâ¦"
You know, that alone
could be very reassuring.
Do do we need to look at things like that?
Charlotte Wittbom: Oh, yeah.
I'm sure there are many different
ways we could look of how we, what
we reward and why we reward things-
Mm ⦠and what we should reward.
And also, in the end of the day,
of course, the, the judges, they
have their own background histories
and, and their own journey, so
for, it's very diff- difficult to
be objective about anything- Mm
in life.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
Charlotte Wittbom: So we have
those difficulties as well.
I think what was quite interesting
was Colonel Card brought up that he
thinks that AI could be something
to be used in judging to, you know,
check the, the regularity movement and
that they are still natural movement.
So there are, I think, many different
ways as, as that, but I do think, I, I
understand what you're trying to wh- wh-
to get to, that there is that to bring
that joy of, of being able to see the, the
the process rather than the result there
I think definitely there could be I- Mm
really important.
And I always say that as well.
We have to remember that the process, it's
much more important than the result in
it- Mm ⦠because it's the, the process
is where we have that true development.
And to be perfectly honest, a lot of
the people I meet that, that they, you
know, they have the dressage to music,
they have lots of- Different ways that
are, are joyous and fun and a, a party
around it and those kind of things I think
also could you know, we have the cure of
course in, if we think of the norm, but
here in the UK they also do a lot of just
dressage to music in the lower levels.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Charlotte Wittbom: Which is, i- it's a
nice way of being relaxed because it's
music and the horse, you can- Mm-hmm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: put the test-
Charlotte Wittbom: And
Rupert Isaacson: it definitely
relaxes horses, yeah.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
And you can put the test up as it
works for you, you and the horse.
Mm-hmm.
So you, you make your own program.
You just need to have a certain n- amount
of the, the movements that are necessary.
So there are many different ways
or, or, and paths we can go.
A- so yeah, I, I- Mm ⦠I agree that
there is definitely ways of, or different
ways of looking at it, and I'm sure
there's a ways that you could improve it.
Rupert Isaacson: Your Colonel Card that
you, you're coming back to, you're,
you're- Mm ⦠you're clearly a fan.
Yep
are you doing more work?
Is there gonna be more
collaboration with him and-
Charlotte Wittbom: Eh, no.
I think this was hisâ¦
So the podcast I'm running,
I'm doing portraits with-
Mm ⦠of the different masters.
We- I've done Master Luis Valenza, Mm.
Done late Steven Clark and I did Ferdie
Alberg and obvious- Colonel Card.
So it's like a portraits where
they can in their own words make
tell their life and their history-
Mm ⦠and their story in the way
that they want it to be remembered,
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
⦠Charlotte Wittbom: I think.
So the reason I got into that
was when late Steven Clark, when
we found out that he was ill-
That I just thought there are so
many voices that are disappearing.
And- 100% ⦠again, if we go
back to what's so important,
we need to listen first.
Yeah, indeed.
And listening to these stories
and understanding where people
come from and how, you know, the,
the, the process of becoming a, a
grandmaster or becoming a good rider
or just become a human being- Mm
it's very, very interesting
and very, very important.
So there will come more people,
but not Colin Alcard, he said this
is was the last thing he, he ha-
will do for the equestrian world.
So w- there will be other,
other people on it instead.
Rupert Isaacson: Back to Stephen Clarke.
Mm.
You know, again, obviously a man
that you forged a very creative
relationship with there- Mm-hmm
and had a lot of regard for each other.
What was his reaction to
all of the in-hand work?
Charlotte Wittbom: Oh,
he, he was so positive.
So positive.
And I think, I'm sure you agree to that,
when you speak with any person that
have that wealth of knowledge, it's
and understanding how humble they all
are and how they all are still learning
Rupert Isaacson: So, y- yeah, he, he
was there sort of at the center of the
British dressage world to some degree.
Yeah.
Yeah ⦠and he encountered you,
Yeah ⦠and of course he would have
been aware of, you know, that tradition.
Yeah.
Was he in the process of trying
to bring that more into the
mainstream- Yeah ⦠of training?
Yeah.
He was.
Okay.
Charlotte Wittbom: He opened a lot of
doors, and he definitely opened a lot
of doors, and then definitely have
helped me to come into this world.
And was very, very curious about
it, and I used to teach, I'm
still go- teach at his yard.
And he always sat in the corner
and and looked at these lessons.
So his clients had groundwork
sessions as well f-
Rupert Isaacson: from me.
Did he, did he speculate on how that
could be brought in more to the mainstream
with the sort of state-sponsored money?
You know, w- when you look at how the
teams here or in Germany or wherever,
you know, it's, it, it comes down to
government money at the end of the day.
Mm-hmm.
In, in the US as well.
Yeah.
Taxpayer money gets used-
Mm ⦠to create a team.
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: When y- people like him
at that level are thinking along those
lines- Mm ⦠were there conversations
about how could we bring this in to,
Charlotte Wittbom: Not, not in that
way more than that, you know, the,
there were articles written- Mm
about us two together, and opening doors
to people that, that could you know,
help the groundwork to be a part of,
of, of the bigger scene in many ways.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Charlotte Wittbom: So,
yes, he, he, he definitely.
I wouldn't know what he privately
thought or- Mm ⦠or that.
But I think, again, if you go back
to it's, it, it, it's again the
communication of creating something
creating something and, and the
curiosity of how other systems or methods
could work and how that will benefit.
And of course, the work I'm doing
with Rachel, the reason I got in touch
with Rachel was because she saw her-
clients' horses were doing so much better.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Charlotte Wittbom: And
because of the work.
So that's how that get, got intoâ¦
See that the horses work
and can do the job easier.
That is- Mm ⦠w- what, what then
really make people curious about
understanding of, of this way of working.
Rupert Isaacson: So s- people
listening might be thinking,
"Okay, look, I'm, I'm, I'm sold.
I'd really like to learn this."
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: but they might still
have a little question in the back of
their mind- Mm ⦠which is, "I could see
how it will help my horse's wellbeing.
I could see how it would help- Yeah
⦠me to train my horse to do things."
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But how
will it help me as a rider?
I think I get this a lot,
this question, and, you know,
I have my own answers to it.
Mm.
Mm.
But I'd be very curious to hear yours.
So, you know, because I'm al- like you,
I'm often saying, "Hey, listen, if we, if
we really wanna get here, if you're here,
we actually have to- Yeah ⦠dismount,
and then do it here- Yeah ⦠and
then do it here and there, and here's
why," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
But give us the Charlotte- Yeah.
Yeah ⦠Vitum of why.
Yeah.
Why, why is it gonna improve your riding?
Charlotte Wittbom: I, I always
say that I, from the ground,
create the horse I want to ride.
You create the horse you want to ride.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Charlotte Wittbom: As easy as that.
You create a horse that is, have a
good posture, that is supple, that
is a bit more comfortable that is
happier to, to communicate, and also
helps you to have that little bit
of, of understanding beforehand.
So that is what I would say.
You c- you create the horse you want to
ride, and then when you ride, you can,
if that is then to go for a nice hack,
or if that is to go out on a obstacle
course, or if that is to ride a novice
test or a prelim or a Grand Prix, that
horse, we're gonna be h- find it easier to
put the work in where we create the, you
know, the- The understanding and the horse
want to do with their groundwork first.
So yeah- Mm ⦠to create the
horse that you want to ride
really is the best outcome.
Rupert Isaacson: I, I, I often
say I, I create the horse
that forgives me my mistakes.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Charlotte Wittbom: Exactly.
Rupert Isaacson: So, you know,
I'll ride in to do something, and
I'm ⦠I- I wanna do this thing.
I wanna do this- Yeah ⦠passage or
something, and then I kind of- Yeah
am sitting wrong, and I do it shitly.
And my horse goes, "You know what?
I don't care.
I know what you mean."
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
" Rupert Isaacson: I'm go- I'm
just gonna do it anyway."
And I'm so- And I need to- ⦠humbled
by that when my horses do
Charlotte Wittbom: that ⦠Yeah.
Well, it is.
It is.
And I think it's only fair that
they get some time to fire all
the postural muscles up before- Mm
we get there.
And the other thing I've also
developed which is am- amazing, but
I started which will maybe sound
a bit strange for a lot of people.
But I've been for two years, probably
more if you ask my clients because
they, they're probably tired of me now
talking on about it, but I've really
focused on the horse's diaphragm.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Charlotte Wittbom: So, I've
developed the groundwork exercise.
Which
Rupert Isaacson: is not where
people think it is, right?
'Cause it's, it's not like ours.
No.
Yeah.
Charlotte Wittbom: No.
No.
No.
Rupert Isaacson: Tell us where the horse's
Charlotte Wittbom: diaphragm is.
And so it goes from, if you think
of the saddle, so I'm trying toâ¦
You got, you know, you see
this is the head, the neck.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Charlotte Wittbom: And then you got the
ribcage, and then you got the haunches.
So, if you think you've got the saddle
on, like, it goes from sort of behind,
not at the pelvis, but it's stuck there,
all the way down near- Mm ⦠to the
girth area and if we think that the guts
and everything is on the, that side of
the diaphragm, and underneath where we
are sitting is the lungs and everything,
you can understand then how a lot of the
difficulties of just being able to breathe
in a cylinder shape, breathe properly.
So I've developed so a way and it's
still early days and I'm gonnaâ¦
I'm taking more helps of, of people that,
obviously physios and, and they know that.
But I managed to get them to deep
breathe, the horses, and to really
switch off, and that is so cool.
That is
Rupert Isaacson: so cool.
Tell us more about how, how
do you deep breathe the horses
Charlotte Wittbom: and,
Rupert Isaacson: and- It's incredible.
So- How do you do this?
Charlotte Wittbom:
Well, that's the secret.
No.
I'm joking.
Stay tuned for more.
Rupert Isaacson: Just make that check
payable to Charlotte Vivement, yeah.
Charlotte Wittbom: Or buy my new book.
No.
Having the forecrumbs out and what
I realized to reach to, for the
horses is the ribcage to release.
It's the smaller movements again,
so it's not the full turns.
It's half haunches, half shoulders,
half haunches, half shoulders.
And when you've done a, a, a couple of
repetitions of that, and then you just
let the horse be, you can suddenly see
that they start to breathe quite quickly.
Really a lot of strange things I've
seen quickly, and then suddenly they
take a deep breath and blow out.
And snorting is someâ¦
it can be that they got, you
know, in their nostril something.
But also when they release the
diaphragm in work, they snort as well.
So you can reallyâ¦
That is sort of the bigger picture
of it, but when I've done that
repetition a few times, what happen is
that quite often they start to shake
their ears, their heads a little bit.
Some of them starts to yawn.
You can see when the nerve- when it
hits the nervous system as well because
they, they start blinking and go sleepy.
And when it's, when the horse really
gives, they just stand and they
just deep breathe all the time.
Like, you can't miss it.
And you see then, so in the beginning
you quite often, they said the flank
in the horse, you call it in English.
You can just see that moving when they
breathe, but when they've released
through the ribcage and released through
the diaphragm, then they breathe, like,
in a cylinder shape, so you can see
also the back moving when they breathe.
It, it's incredible.
Incredible.
It's, so I've, for two years or
three, two, probably more, I say two
years is probably a long time, I've
really worked on trying to find how
to get to that point, and I think I-
I'm about to really understand it.
As, understand it that I could, you know,
show it in a demo kind of thing, setting.
Rupert Isaacson: And if, so for someone
saying, "Okay, well, what's the benefit?"
I mean, you could say, "Well, there's all
these benefits of deep breathing, Rupert."
Yeah.
But, but specifically,
what are the benefits?
And can you also keep that going when
you ride, or is that something- Yeah
that you do preparatory for riding?
Charlotte Wittbom: So this is incredible.
If y- so if you think of, of when you ride
and you collect a horse, and the horse
is connecting and contracting like this
into a short- Because where we sit on
the horse, naturally there will be some
restrictions, quite a lot of restrictions.
So I think a lot of horses, you can
almost hear it sometimes when horses work.
It, you, sometimes you can hear
that they, there's a bit of
restrictions in the breathing.
But I also think that, that the, by
doing these exercises, of course, you,
the horse gets calmer and everything,
but what I've then done is that I
have taught the horse that when I
release or stop, that's the movement.
So if I'm, for instance, doing changes,
working on changes for the first time,
the horse, if, especially if you've
got a horse with a lot of flight
in, if I stop and give the reins,
then they take that deep breath.
I need to have done it from the ground
enough times so they understand it
and that the body wants to do it.
And what you do get is, again,
then that kind of relaxation in it.
So I think if the horses can
understand, because it's so important
the horses can breathe and oxygenate,
ox- oxygenate themselves properly.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Charlotte Wittbom: And it's like with
us- ⦠when we are stressed out,
we can calm down our nervous system-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
Charlotte Wittbom: by deep
breathing, and it's just giving
the horse that tool as well.
Mm.
But they do get calmer.
They, especially horses with a lot of
flight, you do notice a difference,
and quite often they start yawning.
And what's al- also I've seen
when they, I do it, is that they
start to do weird stretches.
I almost think that they start to
feel themselves where they are a bit
tight and release that themselves.
Mm.
Sometimes I've seen muscles go a bit like
s- spasm, like when the physio pressing
things, you can see it rippling, you know.
I've seen that as well happening.
And what's so nice with it is that you
only do as much as the horse allows.
So some horse, you can see they're
gonna start to deep breathe, and
then they don't breathe at all.
They just then suddenly look for something
el- else to, to snap them out of it.
But I do think, and this is just
my view, I can be completely wrong.
I do think with horses, because we go
straight into the ribcage, the diaphragm.
When that is released, it's actually
easy for horses to let go in the
mind because at, at, you know,
they probably don't carry as much.
They carry a lot, but not
maybe as much as we do.
So when they release, the
effect is quite straightforward.
But if they are comfortable, of
course, in their body to release.
It's incredible.
I've s- had so much fun with it and
I have since- Right, of course, you
know, they're wearing a girth- ⦠and
I can't leave this opening
so
Rupert Isaacson: can they, can they really
do this deep breathing with a girth?
Charlotte Wittbom: Oh, I do
it without, very important
to do it without saddle first
Rupert Isaacson: Right, but
then once you're riding-
Yes ⦠there's a girth, right?
Yeah.
So.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
N- now once they understand the
method, once that they understand,
so as soon as I give the rein,
they go and then down immediately.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Charlotte Wittbom: So you,
Rupert Isaacson: you can feel
it And so let's, you, you,
Charlotte Wittbom: you You can feel it.
Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: And you talked
about in the fl- context of a
flying, of fl- teaching a horse
flying changes- Mm ⦠especially
if it's a horse with some anxiety.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So would you be
using that in between the exercises?
Yes,
Charlotte Wittbom: always in between.
Okay.
So what I also see is that actually
everything comes, and this is, I
don't understand fully yet, but
it comes as an effect afterwards.
So when you do it, when you do
the exercise, that standing still
and just waiting f- For it to sink
into the body is so important.
So that break in between whatever-
Mm ⦠you're doing in your sessions, if
you do a bit of walk exercises and then
you give a break, and then if you do a
bit of more collected exercise and then
a break, it's in the break where you get
the effect of the exercise- Absolutely
not during the exercise.
Rupert Isaacson: And that's
very, that's very Luis Valenza
and that's very Nuno Oliveira.
I mean- Yeah, yeah ⦠Nuno Olive-
Oliveira always wrote, I think-
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: it's in, in the pauses
in between that the horse learns- Mm.
Mm ⦠not in the doing-
Mm ⦠of the thing.
And I think that's true for humans too.
I mean, that's- Yeah, yeah
that's the myelination period- Yeah,
yeah ⦠in, in, in the neurons.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
But we of course understand this better.
But I think what it w-
what was it that he wrote?
He said "When your horse gives a good
try-" Yeah ⦠"at something-" Yeah
⦠"dismount immediately and smoke-" Yeah
⦠"a cigarette-" Yes ⦠"down to its butt,"
To take all pressure away from the horse.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And I was
rather like that 'cause I don't
smoke, so I d- I can't do that.
Yeah.
So what I do is- Yeah, yeah ⦠I pull
out my cellphone and I do some texts.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Just to sort of
ta- just to take my attention away.
Yeah , you know?
Charlotte Wittbom: Well, next time you
could try to deep breathe yourself,
Rupert Isaacson: Well-
Charlotte Wittbom: and see what happens
⦠Rupert Isaacson: maybe I will.
So, Yeah ⦠this, so I
was gonna ask you this.
Okay, so we're about, at about
the two-hour mark, so we're
about, I think, ready to wrap up-
Yeah ⦠this particular thing.
Yeah.
Right.
But what I would like you to do, this
is what I usually do with people that
have come on as guests that have jolly
interesting things to say, such as
yourself, is you've touched on a whole
bunch of things in this conversation
which I would like to revisit- Mm
in more detail.
This being- Yeah ⦠an obvious one.
Where we would go for about the
same length of time- Yeah ⦠but
divide it up into those themes.
Mm.
And then we could then release those
on YouTube as separate conversations.
For example- Mm ⦠on deep
breathing and the diaphragm-
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: to give
a slightly deeper dive.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And
then next year, 2020â¦
Well, this is now, for those, because
every, you know, you could be listening
to this 10 years from now on YouTube.
This is October 2026.
Mm.
In July 2027, in the UK, at your and my
mutual friend Alex Northover's place- Mm.
Mm ⦠and she's another
amazingly good human being.
Yeah.
She is.
We're gonna be doing what
we call our Tribe Day.
And I was gonna ask you anyway
if you'd come in and do a demo.
Mm.
Yeah.
But I think this would be of particular
interest- Yeah ⦠because a lot
of the people- Yeah ⦠who will be
coming to our Tribe Day would know
the patterns- Yeah ⦠for example.
They, they're doing the groundwork there.
Yeah.
And okay, it's always great to
do a deeper dive- Yeah ⦠but I
think something like this- really
does take it to a deeper level.
Yeah, yeah.
Would you be up for that?
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah, yeah.
That'd be great.
I, I'm just 10 minutes down
the road, or, from her anyway.
Rupert Isaacson: Super.
Charlotte Wittbom: So, no,
that would work really well.
Rupert Isaacson: So listeners and viewers,
if you are- ⦠listening to this between
October 26 and July 27, then contact
us and you can go see Charlotte do it.
Of course, you could do it sooner
than that just by contacting her, but-
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: for sure
we will put a gun to her
Charlotte Wittbom: head and-
Get the horses to deep breathe.
Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Deep breathing of horses.
Right.
Yes.
And so we c- we can have a, we
can have a, a second conversation
about this in, in greater depth.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
Because- That would be very good I think.
Yeah.
A- and then- It's so fascinating.
It's incredible
⦠Rupert Isaacson: okay.
And I'm, I'm totally up for it.
Yeah.
And then if you give me, like, a one, two,
three, I will absolutely go try it with
my ponies, and clock the results and- Yeah
you know, see where we get.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Love to.
Charlotte Wittbom: Perfect.
Yeah.
Okay.
No, it is, it, and it's so easy.
Again, everyone can do it.
It just, it needs a, it's
a bit of a structure to it.
Okay.
So, it's hard to go through like this.
But yeah, definitely.
Rupert Isaacson: So what we, so viewers,
before you attack me in the comments, you
know, down below saying, "Well, you didn't
do it in enough detail," don't worry.
We will, we will.
We're gonna have Charlotte back,
and we're gonna go into it.
We're gonna go down that
rabbit hole of the deep
breathing- ⦠'cause I'm fascinated.
I want to know myself.
So listen, Charlotte, people obviously
are gonna want to get in touch with you.
Yeah.
They're gonna want to know how to get
training with you and all of those things.
Yeah.
So give us the plugs.
How do people
Charlotte Wittbom: contact you?
So they can get in touch with
me through charlottewittbom.com.
Rupert Isaacson: How do you spell that?
Charlotte Wittbom:
C-H-A-R-L-O-T-T-E-W-I-T-T-B-O-M
Rupert Isaacson: Wittbom.
.com.
Yeah.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah, Wittbom.
And I'm also on YouTube so
it's Charlotte Wittbom as well.
And also if you l- want to listen
to my the podcast I've got out
there, they're also on Spotify.
Rupert Isaacson: What
is the podcast called?
Charlotte Wittbom: Charlotte
Wittbom Classical Mastery.
Rupert Isaacson: Of course you
know the name of your own podcast.
I mean, yeah, yeah, naturally.
We'll make sure it's in the show notes.
You're like me.
Yeah.
It's very human.
It's charming.
Oh.
You're so busy doing it, you
forget what the name of it is.
Absolutely.
Ah.
Charlotte Wittbom: Well, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I love that.
Charlotte Wittbom: The Mead Grand
Masters, I think it's called.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Yeah.
We'll make, we'll make sure
it's in the show notes.
Yeah, yeah.
But, but yeah, so listeners listen to
her interviewing all these, these- Yeah
cool dudes because they are, they
are indeed great interviewers.
Yeah.
Okay.
And I, I, I'm just gonna give you
my own plug, is I tell everybody
that I train in the UK, and I've got
quite a few UK clients- Mm-hmm ⦠I
always say, "Go to Charlotte."
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
And, and there was- I've
had a few from yours.
I'm so grateful for it.
Thank you.
I've
Rupert Isaacson: got some more coming.
I, I, yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
It's, it'sâ¦
Y- you can't go wrong.
Charlotte Wittbom: No.
Rupert Isaacson: Part, I, partly
'cause I, I know her mentor, obviously
it's same mentor, but Charlotte's a
particular talent and a particular human
quality and a particular everything.
I could not back her more.
Yeah.
I, Iâ¦
You know, basically if you live in the
UK and you don't go train with Charlotte,
⦠you will not be as happy as if you do.
And nor will your pony.
So, so m- prioritize it, lads.
Go on her website.
Send her an email.
Say, "Charlotte," and you say, da-da.
And Charlotte will, Uncle
Charlotte will respond.
And you know.
Mm.
And you do travel in the UK, right?
You, you, you- I
Charlotte Wittbom: travel
in the UK ⦠yeah.
I travel to Sweden as
well for clinics, so yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Great.
Great.
Charlotte Wittbom: All right.
Rupert Isaacson: All right.
Yeah.
Charlotte Vittbom, lads.
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Some, some- Thank
Charlotte Wittbom: you.
And thank you so much for
this conversation as well.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, it's
been my absolute pleasure.
Always.
Mm.
Always.
Mm-hmm.
And I look forward to the
deep dives, so we'll- Oh,
yeah ⦠schedule those and- Yeah.
Charlotte Wittbom: Definitely.
Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed
today's conversation as much as I did.
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