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The podcast where relentless curiosity meets leadership transformation.
Hosted by Tyler Chisholmāentrepreneur, CEO, and lifelong learnerāCurious as Hell is the go-to podcast for leaders, innovators, and trailblazers who believe that asking the right questions can unlock new possibilities in business and life.
In each episode, Tyler sits down with top executives, entrepreneurs, and thought leaders to explore how curiosity fuels innovation, builds stronger teams, and drives personal growth. Whether it's uncovering the leadership strategies behind top-performing companies, unpacking the mindset shifts that foster resilience, or challenging conventional wisdom, Curious as Hell delivers actionable insights that help you lead with confidence and creativity.
If you're a growth-minded leader looking for fresh perspectives, practical strategies, and inspiring conversations that push boundaries, then you're in the right place.
Hello and welcome to Curious as Hell, a podcast about leading and growing in today's world. I'm your host, Tyler Chisholm, and I'm excited as I always am. I'm gonna be honest, I'm a little bit more excited today. This is a wrap-up episode for season one of our first new format, new approach, all based around Curious as Hell. The book that I wrote a couple years ago now that's really got to come alive through conversation, which is ultimately my favorite medium, talking with other humans who are on the journey. And we're gonna take a very different approach today. I've got my guest,
Acting also as my co-host, which is new for me, Megan Donahoe. Welcome to the show. my God. So we're gonna today, we're gonna unpack. So this is the last episode, but technically it's the one you should watch first. What we've done is we've put to we've pulled out a series of clips. We broke them into three different themes, which we'll walk you through. But what we want to do is we've had phenomenal conversations with leaders, I would say, from all dimensions, all walks, all perspectives, like mid
Thank you. Very excited.
Most have have been on the journey in their career, but have gone through something a big promotion, a big change, about to early retirement and exit, an individual who coaches, someone who went to a completely different industry that was more her passion and turned it into a leadership role. So we've got some diversity today. And we're gonna play, I don't wanna say good cop, bad cop, because I don't think that's accurate. But since Megan has recently been do you get awarded a PhD? Do you earn your PhD? You definitely earned it. You definitely earned
Yes.
I got Tell us a bit about your PhD experience, just to set the stage. They all kind of heard me rambling on for a while. I want them to get to know you.
Yes, thank you. and and also I just want to say that the curiosity you brought to the story is that the leaders that you were talking to, I think have is just makes it such a beautiful journey to really pull it out. So I'm so excited for people to hear those conversations. yes, PhD. I I will be convocating, so that's when I'll I'll get it. Maybe it's the proof of the paper. That's coming soon. but my PhD PhD journey is has been very long. It's in it's in industrial organizational psychology.
And my focus was on leadership, but specifically my you know, all the work that I've been doing with organizations, in organizations, with leaders and teams, really I was starting to notice this trend around people feeling really overwhelmed and tired, specifically leaders who I think I have a lot of empathy for. I've been a leader before, and trying to
you know, understand what is going on, wh why are they feeling so stressed. I think you any leader you talk to could say, I could give you 10 things at least on why I'm feeling stressed. And so that was my topic was was to understand what are all those things that are contributing to feeling this pressure as a leader. And also what are things that leaders can access to energize them and to lift their well-being in the workplace.
I'd be curious, that list of ten, how many are the same on each list? Arbitrarily, of course.
w like w do you really wanna get into that?
I know, I know, I know. And and this is where we go off but I'm assuming there's a lot of similarities and consistencies.
Yes.
Ish. Yes. Well okay, so there wasn't a list of ten. Let's put it that there's ninety five. And yes. Okay, so no
We can't get into this. Yes. But you get where I'm going in terms of the even this, you know, the risk of certainty was was my season one and a lot of people kind of they they looked at me a little bit. But it show I talked to six different people, including my I was interviewed myself. It showed up very differently. Yes. But it all spun around. Man, when I thought I had have a have all the answers, my God, that backpack got real heavy.
Yes. Yeah. I think I I love that metaphor to use around the backpack 'cause it is it's this it's the load that leaders are carrying. It's a bit of this like pressure soup that they're in. And so for some leaders, it might be financial constraints. For other leaders it might be the team that they're leading and it's constantly changing and and you know, melding and meshing and and evolving. And so I think on any fluid is the soup. And so at any
you know, at any point you might talk to a leader and there might be something on their mind this week and it changes to next week. And so I think this is yes, we're we're all kind of in this pressure cooker and it's it's exhausting and overwhelming.
Well on that high note. But the only way to to to approach this is to dig into it, in my opinion. Like it's not gonna go away. The world isn't slowing down. No. Our teams aren't getting more dynamic. We're not having more variables in the workplace. We're not being asked, you know, the concept of the working leader. Think high level, but by the way, did you get that deliverable done? Like that that's a that is a pressure cooker for sure. So let's get into it. So what we're gonna do, and for you as the audience, you as the audience at home watching along or listening along in your car, we're gonna play some clips and then we're gonna unpack them.
And we're gonna look at it from the perspective a little bit from the academic filter of like what's going on here? What's being what's not being said that's really that's really showing up for this leader in terms of the way they answer a question or make a point or give advice. And I'm gonna kinda look at it from my side, which is like, okay, it's a Tuesday morning at ten o'clock. I've got alligators in my office. What really what happens here? 'Cause the best laid plants. It's true. I show up every day with great intentions and then things happen.
And I think what's so exciting about the the parts that we're gonna go through around how leaders have talked about their journeys is is is that flip side of the research, which is what can you do to like what are the resources that you can access and gain to meet help you meet the pressures that you're going to be facing. And even it's not even sometimes it has nothing to do to address the pressure itself, but it's really more to to fill up your cup and be well so that you can you can meet the world.
Resilience, so however you want to show it up. So watch these clips with us and and show up. You might see reflections. Always keep a mirror close by, in my opinion. So is that a reflection? Is it a glimpse? Is it something you've dealt with? Is it a leader that you're working with or working for or working under, working alongside? And you might see some of those reflections in them. You might see them. Sometimes it's easier to see in others what we don't see in ourselves. But what I'm really challenging and why I'm looking directly at you right now, if you're watching this on video, is don't be a passive participant. Join us.
Listen to the listen to the to the leader, value, dig into their perspective, but put your own filter on it. And if you were in the room, what would you what would you chime in? Get that filter going. And this will be an episode that is gonna be rich. It's gonna have mild wild perspectives from different guests, and it's gonna be a little bit of your watch list of maybe which one you want to go back and dig into a little bit. I love that. So let's get into it. We've got it broken into three parts. So we're gonna start the first part. We've got three themes, which Megan has curated for us, which I think capture it perfectly.
Part one, curiosity, not expertise. And the first one is I'm not gonna set up every clip, but this one I feel I need to because I was interviewed by the incomparable Leah Sarge. And being interviewed on your own, it was kind of a fun experience. She's a fabulous interviewer. follow her, get to know her, her work around town has been phenomenal. But she interviewed me and asked me for some hard questions. So we're gonna start with my own perspective and my own journey. So I'll probably let you unpack this one and I'll sit over here. So here we go. Enjoy.
And I think it was a journey of discovery. And honestly, it was podcasting that opened the door for me to curiosity as that superpower. Okay. And I first started podcasting. Maybe, you know, the story's in the book and I shared a little bit where I kind of got strong armed into it by a really good friend of mine. Yes. And I could not be more thankful as we, you know, close out over 500 episodes. But all of a sudden, I'm like, well, I'm doing a podcast and I'm interviewing who? Imposter syndrome hit me hard. Sure. Who am I? What am I?
And I wrestled with that leaks leading up to and then all of a sudden, and I don't even know if it was as tangible as I make it sound in the book. I'm like, wait a second, this isn't about me. It's about them. So I don't have to be the expert on their life. That's ridiculous. That's right. Make them the hero. Yeah. And start leading and and lead in with curiosity. Just ask questions. Be informed. Don't show up. Sure. Don't show up a blank slate. Do a little homework. 100%. But just show up and ask questions and be curious. And I don't think it was as tangible, and nor did I refer to it as curiosity at that point, but
I've always believed in kind of that hero's journey of like start, introduce the character, they overcome something, they resolve, but that wasn't me, that was the guest. Right. Did that for a couple of years and went, hey, this is kind of working out. And a couple of friends from the outside, you know, you always have to surround yourself with people to go. Yes. Hey, I really like how this curiosity thing is really working for you. And you're like, Really? What? Okay. All right. I that. Like and my social media matters she's like, Tyler, like, I think there's some space you can own this curiosity thing. And I said, Yeah, I'm just a podcaster, you just doing the thing and then
All of a sudden I did a leadership 360 with my team. And I got some feedback. Tyler, you're jumping to the end. Tyler, you're not letting us finish. Tyler, you're showing up asking questions that you already know the answer to. You're not leaving any space. And I'm like, huh, that would make a terrible podcast host.
Leah Sarich
You're
Stand behind that, I stand behind it, I stand behind it, I'm gonna turn it over to you.
Well, first of all, it's I think I love how d the clip just ends there because you're a wonderful podcast host. I so what I love is the polarity that comes up in that in that story because you start off by first kind of recognizing that you're feeling this sense of like imposter syndrome when you're talking to people. And so you're you're grinding up against this perhaps this belief that you have to be the expert and you're really facing it and questioning it. And then you're getting shown this kind of different scenario of you showing up with your team where
you're, you know, without them really saying it, you're you're feeling like you have to be the expert with them and it's coming across as not being very curious. And so I think I I guess my curia my curiosity was where do you think that belief comes from for leaders around why we think we need to be the expert?
For me, I would blame it on Hollywood. Because I didn't have any formal leadership training. And I wasn't hired into a leadership role. I wasn't appointed. I started my own company and built my own role. Which is, I think, is someone is I've had this conversation since. Very different. There's individuals we're gonna we're gonna hear on the show here in a little bit, that were like recruited into a leadership role. Right. That had also started their own companies. It's a different world. So I think that I picked it up, I watched it, I had examples growing up. I grew up in an environment where
Okay.
it was very rural like there was always someone in charge but no one was ever the leader. There wasn't how you felt didn't matter. you know, watching the Hollywood version of leadership, which is usually hard charging and command and control style. And I didn't know any different. I thought like put a few motive motivational posters on my wall and you know I have to be the I have to be the smartest person in the room because I didn't really have another version or another model to support. Yeah. And it was never as tangible as I just made it sound now. It was just a series of picking up things until you get hit with
Three sixty feedback from a team that I really respected. Mm-hmm. And I was kinda I was kinda shitting the bed.
Yeah. Yeah, I I we encounter that in my work too with leaders where some of them come in and they have no sense of what leadership is because they've never actually seen it in action or they've been in in organizations or workplaces where they haven't really been led ever. And then I think, I mean, we also get models of leadership in our lives, right? Like if we play sports in in school, amongst our friends, and so every little cue is telling us what it should be. I also there's also I think this journey that
leaders go on when they first start is like before you're a leader, you're trying to be a subject matter expert. Yeah. But you're trying to be really good at something and what you do. And oftentimes when you're really good at it, that's when people notice you for leadership. And you get promoted. Right. And you move into this role and you feel like, okay, well, this is why I'm here is because I know these answers to this thing. but the role has changed. And so then that's I think and so it's possible that maybe there's a little bit of that blending that's happening.
Does it become a series of thinking about so many leaders that I know that are sub they're experts? Mm-hmm. But their leadership just becomes a reflection of their personality, where their expertise was trained, it was learned, it was educated, it was certified, it was credentialed, it was examined, it was tested, it was trialed by fire. But you're really good at making cabinets, but we're not gonna give you any of that same level of training. And it's just your personality becomes your leader. And then your personality under stress often too, which is not the best version of most of us.
I I mean, imagine a world where the leadership t to be a leader required the same level of rigor as the technical Yes. Yes, I know.
That feels amazing actually. But yeah, but then we default to part 'cause for me it was my personality coming out. Like I'm gonna push hard and work hard and that's what I've been rewarded to do. And it was a personality choice, not like a leadership. I'm gonna act this way to get this outcome. Yeah. I just filled up the space with what I thought was me.
And it's I mean, and for so many leaders it's with every best intent, right? Do you want to help the people around you? Exactly. I know you were done and all I mean, all the leaders Of course. Yeah, yeah. there's a quote that I love. Dr. Alice Agnosticus. I probably saying her name wrong, but she has a wonderful presence on LinkedIn to look her up. But she says, Your advice is stealing my learning. Isn't that good?
I wasn't being malicious, I wasn't, I swear.
It can come off like that to the people that you're impacting.
Before you give feedback, are you ask are you trying to help them be a better version of themselves or just more like you? Right. There's another one. Sorry you triggered me. My friend Jenny says that. I that. And as a leader, it was no, be more like me, because I'm the leader, so I must have the right way. So so what what advice? I mean and we didn't we didn't preordain this, but if I just saw this clip and I'm just in my a at home in my earbuds listening to this, what what can I take away from that clip? That might make a difference for me tomorrow.
I mean, I I think it's listening when you're hearing some feedback that might feel uncomfortable at first and and don't react yet. Just let it let it sink in. Yes. And go. More. And what if this is true? Would be my like what if and and sometimes it's not, right? Sometimes we get feedback from people who think we should be a certain way and do a certain thing. And we don't have to onboard that feedback. And but I always think there is a good exercise of saying, but what if this was true?
Tell me more.
What kind of person would I I love it? All kinds of rooms. What if it was true? I and that's what you did, right? You listened to it, and you noticed it. And I I mean, I think this is where you know, sometimes we get the signals from all these different places. And so you were getting you were honing in on this very important thing around curiosity that you were getting from your podcast thinking and then you were getting from your team.
F because F gives you all kinds of rooms to move.
For me, it was the contrast is what hit me. I'm like, huh. That wouldn't even fly over here. Right. If not that contrast, maybe I would have like, yeah, yeah, for sure. But if I didn't have a a a version of what I felt was, I like that version of myself better as well. Because and I use this in conversations before, it felt better. Yeah. Like, what do with feels? I'm like, it felt better. Yeah. And and it did. And when I started bringing that into my leadership, guess what? It also felt better. And I got some feedback from some trusted sources. They're like, hey, I don't know what's going on, but we're kind of liking this new, like,
Hi.
And one of my one of my longtime leaders was like, I kinda like podcast style showing up in meetings a little bit more. so they've used it too. 'Cause I also shopped it around. I'm I'm I'm a I'm a shopper arounder. I'm like, hey guys, I'm working on this. If you see it, like finding have things trusted people. Like you can do a self evaluation, you can take all these these assessments, or you can just have some trusted people you surround yourself with as well. We'll see it.
Yes. I you know what I love Well, even like the w the what if question around like well you just said the podcast Tyler is kind of cool because it's this idea of like this is a a persona maybe you're trying on and if and we often tell leaders like in in the work that I do with them is if there's something you're trying to learn, don't just don't just not tell anybody. Like share it with your team and and give it a name if you need to. And sometimes it's the reverse, it's like an alter ego that shows up when you're under stress.
And we've asked leaders to kind of go, who is that alter ego and what would you call them? And one leader would be like, it's Charlie Chaplin, because when I show up, I feel very, I'm like, you know, just putting on a show and and not really expressing what I want to say. And so then let the team know, like, when you notice the Charlie Chaplin come out, help me. I need to know so that I can break out of it just in the same way in the positive.
Well, I would mention there you if you wanna read if you have read the book, there's a safety word joke in here about like what do you use that's safe in the room when you know, Jason actually who we talked to on the show talked about a story where he got brought in because the CFO's nickname in the offices, his alter ego was the Grim Reaper. Uh-huh. And but he always bl and he actually almost came to tears. But he always believes that that was his job as the CFO. And Jason it took him about six months for to actually kind of kill off the Grim Reaper persona. Yeah.
Because you what safety words don't work with a grim reverse. But in involving your team, re recruiting people in, z I guarantee they see it.
And l and listen if they're telling you. And if you're noticing discomfort and some heat, that's lean into that a little bit and go, What's going on?
Okay, let's continue. Next next one. I'm I'm gonna tee it up. We're gonna we're gonna dive right in. What was the balance and how did you draw that balance between staying curious and staying open to what was an evolving business? But portraying that air of I know exactly what's going on because with investors, with customers, they want that confidence. Let's talk a little bit about like the early days even till now, how that's evolved. And how did you juggle and balance those two things in that journey? You know, in the early days,
Bobbie Racette
You think that the way you're visioning it, everything is the way it's gonna go. And you're kind of stuck into this like tunnel vision of this is where it's gonna go. but you don't realize that along the way as different things are happening, that it's actually not going that way. It's actually going this way. It's gearing hard to the right and you are going straight still, thinking it's going that way, but it's not. And you you kind of become into this because you're just so focused on it really, but you become
Kind of, you know, you you're not seeing it which way it's really actually going. And and one of the things for me was was trying to recognize that at a very like at the early stages, trying to recognize that as opposed to having people from the outside like my advisors at the time or mentors telling me, whoa, hey, or or employees. And at the time I had realized though that I was so stubborn that this is where it was.
And it was totally going this way. The risk of certainty was a real thing for you in the early days. Yeah. But I was like, this is where it's going. And it wasn't. and you know, at at the same time though, if I think about it, I think that's part of the way of learning. Because I mean, you don't know until you're in it, and then you have to learn it when you're in it. And like you're curious and you gotta figure it out as you're going through. And I didn't know a lot of that until it was almost too late. So I I would say that a lot of those things were
Bobbie Racette (18:32.802)
They ended up being mistakes for me, but what makes it all better for me is the fact is I was able to fix those mistakes at the time and learn from that mistake and move on and get it back on this their before it goes too far.
Tyler
Before it went too far, right? my god. So many I have so many things I'd want to ask you about what I just saw. Tell me what what where does that land for you?
Well, I just I I loved your interview with Bobby Russet and I just how much courage she had to show and she was very thoughtful and reflective about the journey that she was on. Like it's it takes a lot of courage to talk about where, you know, you were going in a direction and all these other people were telling you something different and and then, you know, having to learn that lesson in real time with a lot riding on you. It's it's it's hard work. So I just I loved that interview.
Thank you. She she she shows up. Yeah. That's why she's always on my on my guest list. Because I love the startup founder versus large corp. Mm-hmm. Similar, different, different, same, faster, more volatile. 'Cause I think it I think perspective makes a difference, like the world you're in as a leader.
Yeah. I mean I think this is where the I there's this expertise pressure point really you can start to see is that when you're when you're leading a very quickly growing company, you are starting probably in an area that you have expertise in and then suddenly you're very quickly moving into leading right. And so there isn't there isn't a whole lot of leadership role modeling or depth in your organization because you're at the helm. there isn't a ton of space or
Within months from
to and time to be able to explore and learn these lessons until you're then moving up to the next level, right? Going from it just I'm doing this work now, my gosh, now I have five people that I'm leading. And geez, we have to add a level of leadership. So I'm leading leaders, that is a whole other skill set. And then suddenly I'm looking outward and I'm leading as a as a full CEO and everyone else has got this. So so what is it demanded of you as a leader? it changes. When you're in alarm it's so aggressive.
And in a large organization, there's a lot more like space to do that. And oftentimes there's more role models there. There's there's people who you can see it. It's often clearer even from an work structure lens.
Yeah, you can see the stairway from the set like your s the the the two weeks after you start the job. You're like, I can move up this way. It's a preordained path. Where startup world is a whole. Like who knows? Yeah. Your your odds of dying are higher than your odds of succeeding succeeding in that world.
Yes, it's true. And I think and I and I think a mistake we make sometimes is we think that structure or hierarchy can give us the answers, right? Which like it's and it's sort of us trying to claw in this like this expertise, right? It's like we have to be an expert at how this organization is created so that we all know exactly where we're going and what we're doing, which I have, you know, the grow cup growth companies that I work with sometimes they res they want to resist that. They don't want the
Well, 'cause it kind of represents that way and we're different and like so there's a pushback. When does that hurt and when does that hinder?
Yeah. And so I I think it Yeah, and and like and maybe it's not not binary, right? And and I think we've got some ti and the Yes, of course. It's not binary. So I mean the there's not a binary sense of like the structure is right and no structure on the other side is also right, right? But and instead it's that like how it's the goal that structure creates for people, which is how do we
It makes it so much easier.
clarify what everyone is expected to do and who they can go to for support and then create spaces for listening, which I think I don't know what Bobby's experience was, but what it sounded like was that she's she had a direction she wanted to go. And she had advisors maybe telling her that she should go a different way. And I wondered how the experience would have been different if they had sat with her and really sought to understand why she felt it was going it needed to go in this direction and then helped
She made it sound as also it was going this direction and she was kind of denying it. Like let's say for the fun of because you know, if she was here we could she would unpack it and she would. But say the business really was going here and she was going here. What's the risk of a leader also being too committed to their own? The literally it's the epitome of the risk of certain examples. I'm sure you run into that on a re on the regular. Yeah. Our way, my way, or the highway.
Yes, yeah. I well
Yes. I mean I it's Yeah. I think then I mean you end up losing good people. Yeah. You end up right. And Yeah. And then it's I mean, I also think it's harder to change 'cause the deeper you get into your own way, then it's hard to see the other possibilities. And so how do you so so even I think if you're on the flip side of it and you're supporting CEOs and you're seeing that they
Usually those are the first signs. Yes. Your high performers say, I'm off this train.
they're heading in direction and they they're not they have blinders on very narrow tunnel vision. Like how do you just breathe some space into that for a moment, step out of it and it we're not like there's a lot of advice monsters around. That's a Michael Bunge Steiner does
Which I love it. That's great. That's yeah, the coaching habit. If you haven't read it, read it. We're all we're all coaches somewhere in our life, in my
Yes. So so we always just want to give advice because it's a lot easier than inviting So good. but it's so much easier than actually sitting with someone and looking them in the eyes and saying, like, I see that you're so committed to this direction. Like tell me more about that.
Yeah.
for me. Give me more. Be curious. Yes. Create space. It's not just asking questions, it's actually creating space. Exactly. Someone asked me today, what's the biggest risk of curiosity? I'm like that you think it's just asking questions. That's a mechanism. Yes. The what you bring to it, what you bring before and around and how you feel when you ask the question and what you hope to get, which is, I don't know. I'm open to anything. Yeah. Versus weaponizing questioning and calling it curiosity. But that's we'll save that for later. But I I do think that's the difference. And I you know Bobby's world also startup
Right.
at her from her kitchen table, twenty dollar add on Kiji, queer, indigenous, w w woman in tech. It was a lonely it was a lonely journey. Yes. So having like how critical is it tech? Like, is it just trusted peers? Is it also do you see leaders where sometimes they have to go outside their organizations 'cause they don't feel safe looking like they don't know inside their own?
Yeah.
yes. All I mean all the time. And I think it's hard because talking to people outside your organization, they don't necessarily understand your organization either.
sometimes can be a benefit. Yes. Because they're not they're not bogged down to like, Well yeah, I can't ask that because they just they ask the silliest questions that are sometimes like I don't know why we do it that way actually.
Yeah, yeah. And so the the risk is is that they stop asking those they stop seeking support in some ways or others. I do think that there's this a bit of this myth, which is probably very connected to the expertise myth around leadership, that as leaders we can't talk with other leaders about our challenges and what's going on. I I like and I've actually I've even heard HR people say, well we can't bring them in the room to talk about, you know, how to have performance conversations because there's some confidentiality there.
And I'm like, w what? What is confidential that all leaders can't talk about their organization? Yes. I mean call the bullshit. And I think but I so many leaders believe this. And they believe that they can't talk to each other, which is why I think we're in this space of feeling very lonely as leader.
Sorry, bullshit.
Back to the burnout conversation we had earlier. Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, let's keep moving. We've got so much to uncontrol today. I love I love it.
Ignacio "Iggy" Domagalski
And so kind of getting from that point of where you believe that you have to be the person that has all the answers to thinking that maybe those people know this thing a lot better than I do. and for me that that that really came true with project management in in our in our tender business, around 75 or 100 people. We started to hire a team.
To do project management of these larger jobs and and they were doing all sorts of things that I had never even heard of. And and you just kind of have to trust that they really know what Well, that's not even just knowing what's going on over there, but you brought in skill sets that were not your skill set. Yeah. And and I think when you're when you're younger, at least I know I did, you know, you just have this this hubris that you think you know the way that things should be done inside of the company that you're leading. Yeah.
But when you look back, you realize you really had no idea. You just had some opinions. You know, it I just had opinions on things of the way I thought that things should be done based on not very good information or experience, just on I'm like, hey, I was the leader of this company. We've always kind of done things the way that I th thought they should go. So let's do it. And and so I think that was, you know, that was probably pretty frustrating for our teams at the I'm curious at that moment. Did this get pointed out to you?
Did you have a a mirror moment or a fireside chat moment? Like self-curiosity for me is so critical. I think I could have wrote a book about forget about all the other types of curiosity, just get really curious of how you're showing up. How did you realize that was going on for you? Because in hindsight, it all sounds pretty clear. Yeah. And and I I'm not sure that it's ever really all in one moment. You know, you could yeah. I I think there's there's moments when you realize just how smart your team is. And you know, they did something and they didn't do it the way that you would have done it, and it worked really well. They got a good outcome. Yeah.
so many layers. I love it. Dive in.
Yes. I love how he like recognizes this idea of it's just opinions with, you know, my limited experience in it. and it reminds me there's a a book that's recently been published and I we're gonna have to put it in the show notes 'cause I don't remember the exact name. Okay. Nur is the author, but he talks about beliefs and it's I've been craving this a book on beliefs for a long time. And he talks about the difference between there's fact, so this things that we know to be true, there is faith.
which are these like strongly held convictions that we have. Okay. And then in the middle, there's our beliefs, which are like strongly held convictions that we could possibly imagine might look different. Like we could change them. and I think this is this is kind of what I hear when I hear Iggy talking about this is he's getting at these like we sometimes bring our opinions as though they're fact when in fact they they really just are driving us the it's our beliefs all behind it around how we think we should
Do these things and those those we can question those beliefs just like we can question whether a leader needs to be an expert. in the same idea.
Yeah. I have one of my team members who's very good at taking feedback, but also very opinionated. So it's an interesting dichotomy. He goes, Tyler, strong views, loosely held.
Yes. There you go.
And 'cause you know, you're like, this might be uncomfortable. I gotta give him feedback. It's like, no, you're right, mate. You know, he's a Brit. So he always says, you does that in? He's like, Yeah, no, you're right. Yeah, okay, good. Thank you. Great. I'm like, yeah. Sometimes there's a story that I'd even tell as a leader, mentoring, or coaching someone who's got strong opinions. They're like, this is gonna be like I've seen some things and I think it's really hard holding him back or it's hurting the client, or you know, there's a reason. Yeah. It's not just me saying be more like me. I'm working on that. And then he's like, no, no problem.
But because it was the belief or my perce my perception as an outside coach of another leader like that who reports to me, but we're peers in the way we work. And I had to change my narrative that like, yeah, no, he's got great, very staunch views. But yeah, the presence of new information, he'll change his mind. And that sometimes is rare. Well, not sometimes, it's often rare. It used to be rare for me.
We confuse our our convictions with facts. Yes. And instead it's yeah, this this getting to where your colleague is where it's like, Yeah, I have these strong convictions, but they can be changed. And that those are my beliefs. I can I can change those.
With f
Yeah. I can choose. That was a powerful day in my life as a human being who also is a leader that like I can choose how I show up. You made me, you made me feel a certain way. Really? Really? I wonder what it would be like if you chose to show up in the room or to show up as you know, and Iggy, I love it because this was in hindsight. And it sounds like so clear and so obvious. So what would be your perspective? You're working with a team.
And let's go let's go kind of let's go the the the up power versus downpower. You're managing up. Yes. And you see your leader doing these types of things that Iggy has now come clean on in a very transparent way. How would you approach that conversation when your leader's like, this is how we project manage? But meanwhile, you're P P certified, you've got ten years experience, you're like, This is not how to project manage. Yeah. What advice would you give in that when the pressure cooker was turned up to high?
Ooh, I mean I think it's I think it's back to curiosity. I think how can you I mean we all we need someone to give us a mirror on how we're being received. And I think you know, you of of course there has to be a level of trust with your leader to be able to do that. but even it's just giving a mirror to say, Hey, I've noticed that you you know, when you share a project with me and y you you go through all the steps. And I'm curious like
Well played.
Are you feeling like I don't have all of the knowledge on this and it like about how to do this?
my god, no. Like I I wanna jump in right away.
And then he thinks, no, that's not as well. And then he can say, Okay, I dcause it feels it feels a little like that. And and I'm just wondering like what can I do to help you feel comfortable that I've got this, 'cause I really wanna have this.
That's like reverse reverse double entendre empowerment. Yes.
Yeah. And so I think I mean we just like we're all navigating this world the best we can and I think we need to slow it down a little and we need to just be each other's mirrors and just notice. Notice what's going on for people and I mean that is that it's so simple and I think we just we avoid it. We notice something and then it kind of flies away. Of course it's easy. And I mean I'm still working on that as a skill too where I see someone doing something and afterwards I go, ooh, I noticed that they did that.
And now what I'm trying to do is is vo vocalize in the moment when I notice it, in a kind way. Like a kind and loving like I know you have every best intent and I'm noticing that anytime we talk about this, you seem to get a little frustrated. Like can you tell me more about what's going on?
And it's a very powerful to be like, and that's just what I'm seeing from the outside. If that's not the case, let me know. Yeah. Because like I'm not telling you, like, don't tell me I'm frustrated. I didn't tell you. But if it's at that point you're already you said something that I really think is you know, we need to slow down, but we're not getting any more time. So this is a go slow to go fast kind of scenario in my opinion. You know, I I didn't have time to do it right, but I have time to do it twice. It kind of feels like this. Yes. So I'm gonna take a few minutes just to talk to you about something that matters. Yeah. But that's a moment.
But the amount that that can save us over here is because you know, I joke I used to fly. And before we'd fly before we'd go, I used to fly VFR, which is you have to see the ground. But you'd draw your drift lines. So you'd take your point here and a point here, and then you'd take your little protractor and you go 10 degrees. So as long as I was inside there, I'd be like, I think I'm off track. But I could see that that that factory or that railroad. But in leadership, we don't always have our 10 degree drift lines. No. And the sooner you make your course correction, the less you get way off. Like, where the heck am I now?
And I think those little conversations allow you to tighten your drift lines. Yeah. I don't have time to do that. I would argue we don't have time not to.
Yes. And actually and so this really aligns with my PhD research in that it's there's a dual pathway. And so when we're so there's lots of research on the job demands resource theory. If there's any research nerds out there, they can just go look that up and they find lots of research on it. But essentially what it talks about is how demands impact how like stressed we are and how resources impact how stressed or well we are. And what's fascinating is I think sometimes we position these things on a teeter totter.
So we think if my, you know, resources are high, then my demands are low. And vice versa, if my demands are high, then my resources are low. And if I want to lower my demands, I need to just feed the resources. So what that could look like is a leader is going, you know, I have an hour. I'm supposed to go for lunch with my buddy Agy, right? Sure. And but I also have this really long to-do list. I have a whole bunch of things I have to get done. And you have a choice, right? Do you spend the time on your to-do list or do you go for lunch?
And leaders are faced, I mean this is just a very simple one, but leaders are faced with these choices every day, which is what you're referring to as this like time, right? Is like I could sit for f fifteen more minutes with this person who's clearly needs needs to be noticed. or I have to, you know, jump on this next call. And so what the research would say is that it's not a teeter totter, it's a swing. And so this idea that Yes, we still have the playground.
Opportunity for support. Yeah.
Yeah.
we can talk about bags and and like carrying stuff, but essentially if you reduce your pressures, it will it will serve you in that it will reduce your stress. It will it will reduce strain. but if you increase your resources, so if you take the time to go for lunch with your friend, or if you take that extra 15 minutes to connect with that employee, it will not only reduce your stress, it will increase your well-being. And so
We can do things that increase our well-being and fill up our jar without actually having to reduce the demands. Because I think we're gonna drive ourselves a little bit nuts if we are constantly just trying to lower our demands because they're always there. The pressures are always there. I don't know anyone who's gotten through their to do lists. And so I would like to meet them. and so if we constantly are just trying to fill a glass that keeps emptying, as opposed and like
To be able to take a drink. We can't. We have to go and we have to fill the glass that doesn't have like the demands in it and just sustain ourselves, right? Go on that, you know, the hike the backpack analogy I always use is you know, when if if anybody listening has kids, they'll understand or hangs out with the kids, they'll understand that kids love rocks. And like anytime they you go anywhere with them and they find a rock, it is the most precious thing they've ever found in their entire lives, and you cannot get rid of it. And so you're carrying
It's the same, it's the same.
Yeah, okay. So your wife is the It's all Yeah, it looks rocks. Right. So you're carrying so if the rocks are the pressures that you have in leadership, then you're you're carrying these rocks and and maybe you actually can't throw them o out of your bag. You have to carry them. And so to sustain yourself, right, you're not gonna get rid of the rock but you might have extra water. You might have a real
You need better nutrition, you need better sleep the night before. Gear you gear up for the for for the for the journey at hand.
Backpack with good support. I love You have friends who can help you carry those rocks and so
Yeah, so it's not a teeter totter, it's a swing and I think more leaders, if they can, need to spend time g like like if they have to choose, make the choice that will fill your cup, not the one that will try to get you caught up.
It's just that takes discipline.
It does. It's really hard. And I and I mean it's always a balance 'cause there's you can't always say, I'm just gonna go out for lunch and never do my
That's why I think all of this is a practice. Yes. You you fall off your practice. Yeah. Okay, let's jump into the next one. We're gonna talk we're gonna listen to Laura.
Lara Murphy
It is and it it's amazing. It's just but then how do we how do we flip that dialogue into being, you know, a business with a purpose and something that we can really focus on a purpose.
Hoping to make money. Unfortunately, that's where great purposes can can fail.
Lara Murphy
Absolutely. And the economic impact and being able to harness so much of the statistics that we're able to see and move forward. So again, it's really an exercise in identifying those priorities and then also being willing to put your hand up and ask for help when you don't have all no one has all the answers and particularly with sport, it's ever changing, constantly moving and
You got media, you got culture, you got like there's so many
Lara Murphy
Broadcast, league, like regulations.
Things I don't even know to think about be concerned about.
Lara Murphy
Exactly. And so I think you just you really for me as a I have no problem for asking for help. And you really have to be able to do that in order to continue to move the group as a whole, whether they're on the pitch or the business in behind what's happening for that game day and all of what we do and we we step onto the f the pitch for a match. So just really identifying that and asking for help and knowing that it's it's a constant you're you're just constantly learning. Luckily I am.
Very, very curious and part of being an entrepreneur and I love that's why I love the your book, the co the podcast, all of it is y it is, it's curiosity and I think from a very young age I had that.
Right out of the gate, I want to ask you: what's the difference from being a leader who delegates who versus who asks for help?
Ooh, good question.
I don't I mean I think that both are good activities. Yeah, I think so.
But are different. Hey, do this for me. Or like, hey, I really need your help on something. It sounds different. Yeah. Hey, go write this report. Hey, can you help me? Yeah. I don't know. 'Cause it caught me, 'cause my earlier days asking for help would have felt weird. I wouldn't have liked it. Now I don't care that much about it. Until I do. Like it it's it's not it's not a hundred percent dealt with.
Yes.
Clear. Yeah. Well and I think that I mean I I think delegating sometimes gets leaders avoid it because they worry about micromanaging. And I still I also do think there's a distinction there where I think micromanaging is when you're kind of telling people exactly how they should do something versus Yeah, this is just what I need and then they can go and do it. but I also think that there are some people on your team who might who might need a little more instruction, who might you you might need to say
Tell them what you want done and be surprised how they're
Hey, I really need this report completed and I'm going to I'm delegating it to you. I'm gonna you are responsible for it. versus I think sometimes you can lean into maybe an like an other leaders or people who have more context or more expertise in something, you can say, Listen, I really need help with this, and they can just take it and run.
How critical though in that moment I delegate something that that person that I delegated to or I asked to do something to me to to do for me says, Hey, I'm not clear. Like talk about the safety and the requirement for the you know, like I I love the way Laura said, you know, like you have to be I was I'm okay to ask for help. It doesn't even
You know, which is a bit of personality. I'm okay with that. I don't know. We didn't get into was there a time in her life when she wasn't? I don't know. Yeah. But if you ask someone for help and they go, Yeah, I want to help you, but then you walk out of the room and they're like, shit, I don't really know. It's almost like in the world of AI, it's like giving a bad prompt and being mad at what comes up. Yes. It's like, well, it wasn't clear. Yeah. But that you know, AI probably is better. Ask me what hey, ask me all the silly questions that you would need to know to help me on this. As team members, I think we we fail at that quite regularly.
Yeah, well I think and 'cause it probably feels like it there's not a lot of time to ask. Yeah, it's like it's so busy. It's like, I just need to do Yeah, so we're just trying to help we're and we have every good intention to help each other, but we walk away feeling more confused or unclear. And I mean I love you know, I work with leaders who are very thoughtful and and sometimes notice after the fact and then have this recognition of, I wasn't clear and how do I how do I, you know
Okay, but again.
say that? How do I say, you know, I I'm learning now that I wished I was more clear here. Let's come back to
It's already a win in my opinion, because that self awareness to go, Hey, I know I just kinda threw that at you yesterday. I was busy. Yeah. Anything I can clarify for you. Yeah. And like literally even that. I'm open. Throw it at me.
Yes, exactly.
I love that. Like it's it's all and it's I think it you said a little bit this awareness that maybe I wasn't clear and like I if leaders paid attention to those feelings of awareness and these moments of like, I wonder if I wasn't clear and followed up and actioned those things, my gosh, we would be
He just reminded me there was an old Saturday Night Live skit. I think it was Rob Snyder. And he would be hanging out with a group of friends and they'd make a joke or something. And then like five minutes later, he would then get the punch he would say the punchline. There I'll be like So then he went away, built a time machine so they could go back and get his jokes timed with their comments. Right. So he would but imagine as a leader, it's like you know, because I don't know about you. More often than not, I'll be like, hmm, I could have done this, I could I could have done that. What's stopping you? You own the time machine. Hey, yesterday, crazy day.
Let's schedule 15 minutes just to follow up on that project. We do have a time machine as a leader, like especially if we're in quote unquote control. Yeah. You can be a bit of a bully and go, hey, I really want to follow up with you. I know you're busy, but let me fit into your calculus. Like I'm I'm being a bit jokey about it, but I think sometimes we like, that's we that opportunity's past. It has you got you own the time machine. You own the time machine.
Never. No. Always go back. I mean I think it's just this thing we can always try to repair. We can always try to clarify. We can always just seek to understand, ask questions, like get curious. I like I think yeah, and I think L Lara l learned that and that she's you know, I can let go and and people can do things and it might not be the way I would do it, but it's getting done and it's
But the reality of a situation, there was so much, there was no way she could have. Like also, sometimes you just have to go, the the wave is too big. Yes. Go by yourself. Go go, you want to go further, go with other people. Yeah. There's just two different disciplines to that. But back to we got promoted because of our technical expertise, which is usually often because we went really fast and did a good job. Yes. Often with our own two two hands, two eyes, two mouths or two ears.
No.
Yes.
Yeah. I love conversations when especially in spaces where you feel like you have a lot on the plate, where you really start to hone in on like what are our must haves? And helping our team really focus on it. Because I think that is where maybe leaders without you know, they don't communicate necessarily what is the most important thing that's needed. And so then what happened it's so easy to do because we we know what it is. We don't it it's a little bit more maybe unconscious for us, but we know what it is.
Yeah, and so to be able to actually articulate it. And so but the person we're giving the work to, they're gonna have their own sense of priorities or concerns that maybe they have to do it exactly right, the whole thing, when maybe we've only got this much time. It's these three things in this project that have
Well, more frequent touch bases. Now we're getting into just like good kind of project health. What would you say to somebody who watched that clip and go, I'm just not like that. That's not who I am as a leader. It's not my personality. I don't ask for help. I'm actually not that curious. And I don't know if I need to be. But if someone's like, I I struggle with that and I get it, what can I start doing?
Oof. Well I think I mean I would ask them what what they what what kind of leader they want to be first is what would be my question and then
that persona role model, like who but this this new this new this new like y version of you, what what should we call it? Should we call it what should we call it? Yeah.
Yes, yeah, there's a clier a clip here. But I think yeah, I think I would ask, you know, what what kind of leader do you want to be? And then how can we live live that into the fullest value? 'Cause there's many different ways to look at it. It's not it's maybe not about asking for help, but it's about like let's not steal people's learning. Like if powerful. Yeah, if you really believe in coaching people, then by not at not by not giving them the chance to do this work, you're actually not letting them grow and learn.
That's so powerful.
But if I just did it myself, it'd be done faster and better.
Yeah, maybe it would be.
But then you're always getting to do it yourself.
Then you're always gonna do it yourself. Then when are you gonna have time to become this leader that you wanna be, to do this stuff? Yeah. And so I think if yeah, yeah. It's is I mean it's scary. If if if being an expert is part of our identity, we ha it's hard that's a hard thing to let go of. And I think that we do that without intention. we kind of move through it and we learn and we grow. And what would it look like to become a little bit more intentional with that? To say, Okay, before
That was an opportunity.
I achieved success because I really knew this stuff. And now I am leading people. So, what does achieving success look like for me there? And what do I need to let go of?
If you I'm putting you super on the spot here. Just so you know. I'm driving up a cloud trail and there's a billboard about leadership. Definition, a position, a statement. What would it say?
My gosh. I feel like this is strategy trying to figure it out.
You can get back to me if you want to.
I don't know. The the one thing that is coming to mind is, and it's probably not exactly like I'm sure we could workshop the words, but it would be that leadership your leadership is only as good as the interior condition of the leader. I like it. Yeah, and it's this idea of like you have to you have to know yourself and and be true to yourself in order to give more of yourself to the world.
Every one of those clips had had a huge element of that. Yes. And often was in hindsight. And but but now I'm I'm using it in real time. Like I learned it, a version of me before didn't have it. I realized it through a series like like you said, it was it was a it was a passage of time and a series of things to all of a sudden go, my god, I must have really annoyed my team. You don't always say that the next day. No. But if you if you if you're not s I guarantee as the leader, you've annoyed your team somewhere.
Yes. Yes.
Yes. The world is teaching you. And it's and I think it's just
That's it. I wasn't on the smile billboard test, job. There it is. The world is teaching. We're gonna move into the second section, which is relational and co created. Which I love co creation is something I've embraced. And the more I do it as a leader, the I I personally believe like here we are co creating. Yes, we're So let's let's dive right let's dive right into it.
Jennifer Lussier
I think that was amazing and with the team. So I like I shared, I I was telling them, okay, I'm going in and they're like, good luck, Jen, and like fortifying me in that way. And then on my I think it was on my second interview.
If you didn't win were some of them gonna mutiny? Like this is a whole thing going on. I like
Jennifer Lussier
Things like this, right? But then I came back and they had all they created, you know, Napoleon Dynamite and vote for Patreon.
I do, I do, I do. That's funny actually. That's such a sign of a great sea. That's
Jennifer Lussier
They created vote for gen stickers and they put my god, I was totally crying. And they they all were wearing vote for gen when I came back from that. And I was just like, this is the best moment of my career to date, even if I don't get this job. Like I was it was so it was incredible. And I think that's just an example of where when you where when you share your vulnerability, yeah, you get it back.
Brings a tear to my eyes the leader. That's awesome.
No matter what happens, right there is awesome.
Like you get it back in spades, right? Like that I just I will never like I will remember that the rest of my life in a way that vote for pay drops. Right? It's like a second.
It's it's so good. But it's such a testament to like what's the value of investing in your team? What's the value of relational curiosity? Actually you're being curious about them as humans. What's the value of being honest? I love that story. my goodness that doesn't put if you know, if that doesn't bring a little tear or maybe some shivers up your spine. But being co-creating relational, being vulnerable, being real, being authentic, and having them your team in your corner.
Yeah, that it like that to me is the epitome of being able to measure your impact on how a team feels about
Unprompted, unsolicited. And for everyone, just you know, please go listen to the episode. But Jen was interim CEO for like six months from a COO position and then became CEO. So that was the part of that story that isn't super clear, maybe if you don't catch it. But can you imagine like the vote for Pedro? You if you haven't seen it, you'll Google it, it'll you'll get it. But like wow.
Yes, well. And knew that she was nervous about it and w you know, wanted to show some support, which means that she had deep trust with them about
That she had built with that group of people. Like you don't, there's no there's no s engagement survey required to do that.
Your social capital. Like it's really you like the Yeah. Which Jason talks about that in your conversation too. Yeah, which I think so. I mean, I guess to me, this moving from part one, which is like you have to let go of your expertise. So when you let go of your expertise, then the question is always like, Well, what do I have? And I think it's what you have is the people around you. It's everybody who w who wants to be in it together to do this cool thing. And I think I mean what it sounds like a little bit is her team.
through the roof.
nice.
recognized that, you know, they were they were voting for her, right? Vote for Jen. And they also recognized that by having her, they were all winning because they were in it together. And so and I think we sometimes as leaders we think that it's if we're if we're so embedded in this identity of being the expert, it's the only it's a very lonely space. when we let that go, we move into a space of like, whoa, this actually is a collective and we can do so much more as a collective.
I love it. By her winning, they win. And like no ivory tower, we're all in it together. She was relatable. She was human. They were in her corner. They were supporting her. Yes. Which I would take a wild guess that her in her role as COO, she was probably equally as supportive to them. Like that's also coming right back, actually.
Yeah. And I think I mean I don't know what she's like as a leader. We'd have to ask the people who work for her around their their day to day experience.
I've got a pretty good I've got a pretty good like sign, like neon flashing sign.
That's the next podcast is us talking to all the director ports of these leaders to hear what they have. Yes. and it sounds like though, like she obviously invested a lot of time to get to know these people that they would have this amount of cheer like cheering her on and wanting to see her succeed.
Let's find out what's really drawing.
And if this is a team that comes under fire, this is a team I'm going to have confidence is going to pull through because they're going to pull together. You know, when the quote unquote bullets start flying, which they do in business all the time. Like there's always low-grade little explosions going on all the time. This team is going to be able to handle it because they they trust the person next to them and they trust the person above them and below them. That's significant. Like when it it touches on one of my pet peeves of bolting a bunch of people together, working them into the to the ground and calling it a high performance team. That has the makings of a high performance team.
Yes.
Yes, yeah.
At its foundation. What they do in their work, I don't even know about that yet. Right. But I'm gonna pick them to go out on this on this trip together, on this road trip of of business with, because they're they will pull together like
Yes, yeah. They have to they have to hold each other. And I think what we sometimes confuse confuse this with is we think, well, she must be doing it all right. And I'm sh and I know that like there are always things that we're going to make these missteps. But but you can't go wrong with building trust with people. It's the my my PhD supervisor always used to say it was like an RRSP of trust. And so every time you do anything with someone you're putting money in and sometimes you have to withdraw it, maybe 'cause it's a mistake you've made or
or, you know, we're in a difficult time that you can't share something with people, you're gonna have to withdraw. But if you can constantly add to it, then then it becomes
Well, to me you're always building the equity for when stuff hits the fan, right? The rainy day, the R S P L.
Yeah, or making a mistake, 'cause we all do, right? Or we have our own little things, our our alter egos come up.
Yes, they do. Yes, they do. All right, let's jump into next one.
Lara Murphy
Like I had a teams call and I I hopped on it and they said Lara no like you go prep. Just like be present and don't worry about it. We got this. And so, you know, constantly wanting to to chime in and be part of things, but more so from a perspective where we're looking always looking to gain efficiencies. How can we, you know, lessen the emails or the team's messages or what what is that that
each decision maker can take on their own and you really have to build trust and know that we each have one another's back and I think the more that you can let go and my experience in business is that when I do that and when I let go, things might not always be perfect, but they actually move forward a a lot faster in a positive way.
Was there ever in your in your journey a moment where you had to have that little fireside chat with yourself? I'm like, stop being the bottleneck, stop being and you know, and also sometimes we our value gets wrapped up in that. Most of us get rewarded in the early part of our careers by how many bricks we can pile. For sure. Versus how many bricks we can make sure get piled. That's a weird metaphor, but that's my that's my that was my loose construction metaphor. Was there ever a point where you had that realization yourself of like my success is wrapped up in what happens, not me actually having to do it?
Lara Murphy (54:34.83)
For sure. Yeah, yeah, you do I think there have been several moments and and they're ones that yeah, they resonate and whether it's showing up to do a a talk and realizing like so many people have been part of putting something together that I didn't have the lay hands on at all, or walking down to the front of the stadium with my back to the pitch and looking up at all of the fans and really taking it all in and like realizing like wow like
This team pulled this off.
like what a moment. Like literally the grandstand, the gr the grandstand moment like
Yeah. Yeah. Well and I like I love how she is taking in she's taking these pauses to appreciate the all like the the collective around her. which sometimes we don't we forget. And I think we constantly have to remind ourselves of this. there's other people around here who could also take this or who also have this. Right. We have s it's hard, right? 'Cause we especially when we wanna take care of each other, we might go, I'm gonna take this so that I don't have to burden you. but it kinda goes back to
Are you taking away their learning and are you taking away the opportunity for them to contribute to collective success?
Back to my my reference earlier, just a little bit around the Hollywood version of leadership. But I think we do it across all of our society. We celebritize the individual. Well, clearly Steve Jobs is responsible for all those things solely and personally and individually. You know, you read a book about I was reading Changemakers and it was talking about just the evolution of AI, all the way back to the Turing machine, you know, and the Turing test and and and World War Two. And that every iteration that we have today has been built on. But our society, we love to point to an individual and then and and hero worship.
Yes.
How dangerous is that as a leader when you're like, well, I see all these other people being hero worshipped. They must be doing it all themselves. Yeah. It must be them. Meanwhile, there's a whole bunch of people making it happen. Like, how much does that do you encounter that in some of the work you do of just a belief structure that maybe needs to be kicked out the backdrop?
Gosh, yes. Yeah. I mean I I think I'd be the first to not love an award show. And when I see leaders And also when I see leaders on stage, it is always and mostly because of the work and the the research I've done on on leadership in general is people when a leader is on stage talking about their leadership, and it's always the good stories, usually and or the hard stories that they pulled through. Yes, yeah.
Forced to not love an award show. Yeah, love.
And I my my first question is always I wonder what their team would say about them as a leader. Yeah. 'Cause I think it's I mean it's a bit of leadership is in the eye of the beholder. Like if you like you have to and not every leader is good for every follower and you know, vice versa. And sometimes we and so I think this is where it to me it's peeling back those layers and going, like, how can we just be good humans to each other and help and help each other move through it? But like it re
something that Lara had said that reminded me is like, you know, we have to we have to let n each other know that we have each other's back and that we we trust each other. And I think sometimes and I know 'cause I get a a wonderful opportunity to work with Lara and her team that Yeah, we we have we have instances or moments that we put aside for the team, not just to say, I have your back, but to show it and to and talk about it. And so this is the same thing where you hear leaders say, Well my door is always open.
That's right, amazing.
It's like, cool, your door is always open. Does anybody come in it? Right? Probably not, right? And so to me, it's a bit of a cop-out. Like leaders anything you have, just come talk to me, right? Like you you have to show people that that's what you mean, which means that yeah, maybe your door is open because you are exiting out of it to go talk to people, as opposed to waiting for them to come to you.
I'm here to help, gotta Gotta go.
I tell people to come talk to me. I told them my door was open. I did the thing. What do you want me to do?
Exactly. Or here, you know, I asked my team a couple of I want you to be a leader. Yeah, or I was in the team meeting and you told me I should ask, like, what should we do differently? And nobody said anything. I was like, Well, you have to ask again and again and again. And then when someone gives you just the tiniest nugget of something to do differently, you do it and you say, We tried this, what else should we do differently? And you have to keep you have to show it. You have to. And and that's the only way you get th the collective energy.
And it does feel like the ten to one. You gotta do ten of those for every one where you didn't ask and you didn't listen. Yeah. And you shot it down when the feedback made you uncomfortable.
Yeah.
Tell me Tell me more. Tell me more about this thing that's making me want to react.
Yeah. And create some space, right? So I think sometimes we we ask a person a question that might be hard and they're really thinking about it and we're uncomfortable with the silence of them thinking. So we just jump in and we say, Okay, well just you know and I I'm guilty of that all the time too. But it's har it's hard, right? 'Cause it feels uncomfortable. But I I've started to just take to t like to count to ten in my head so I can chill out. But you do something like that too, right?
I do. I have the stately size when I'm working on it right now. I'm like because indulgent Tyler is quick. Stately Tyler. So I'm working on it. I'm trying to yeah, a hundred percent trying to get it under control. And it's great. The next clip was with someone who also is a friend of mine who pauses. And I had to learn because I also really value what he's gonna say next. So there is a share, like I appreciate it. But if I jumped in every time he paused, he would never get speak.
Yeah. Some more Tyler Tyler E
So sometimes you also have those people in your life where you're like, my wife listened, watched this clip or the next one. And she said, wow, that's that's you, you that's your cadence changes. Yeah. Because his form of communication has pauses. Yeah. When I think about my team, there's some other instances like that. Yeah. But you know, there's ever that once in a while where we're like, like it hits you and you're like, okay, take note. I try to be very observant, as you know this about me, and try to catch it. I'm like, I feel like jumping in, but when I don't, something better happens. Yeah. Note that. Note.
No, write that down. Write that down in your secret notes of like I acted a different way and something better happened. Yeah. And it's so funny. I'm gonna play this next clip my friend Jason. But I've got to practice that with him to match his communication style because I value the outcome we create together. Yes. But it wasn't there for it, we would have never got there, which is so similar to the leadership experience. So it was just became so real when I saw who's up next. He does, he does. Slows me right that down. All right, let's let's let's dive in.
That's just that slowing it down. He did a great job of of slowing things.
Jayson Krause (01:00:54.478)
You don't need to just change the structure of the business to have a flat organization. The best leaders run in a very flat format where it's collaborative, it's thought partnering. Yep. And and that's it. Really strong relational opportunities. It's driven by relational. Here here's the piece. You know, you you said the relational driver. It all comes down to equity.
The amount of equity I have with you means I can challenge you like no one else. I c we create a level of accountability that exists nowhere else. That the truth telling happens here like nowhere else, all based on what? The amount of relational equity we have. And it just continues to blow me away how much time, effort is wasted on this engagement problem.
Well, I'll tell you what, we're measuring the wrong thing. You're you're measuring the wrong thing. You need to start measuring your ability to create relationship equity inside the business. Because that we know what the data says. Your relationship with your manager and the people in your org is gonna drive it. Yeah. So why are we trying to gamify or or create these complex issues when the raging torrent of pace and our addiction to the transactions of the business?
Are what's infecting the situation that we're trying to solve. Why do you think that is?
We're comfortable with transactions. Yes. Because they're out here. They're out here. We're comfortable with spreadsheets. That's it. Let me organize the stack of books. It's very safe. That's it. But if I'm as a if I'm a leader and I want to ask one of the the simplest questions that can blow the roof off your vision, that and that's to sit down with Tyler, one of my teammates, and go, Tyler, what's going to make this the best year of your professional career? Ooh, mic drop.
Yeah, so good. Good to clip there. Yeah.
What's your what's your perc well first of all, engagement survey? Waste of time. Do you agree? Jason definitely didn't leave any gray area for his opinion on engagement surveys.
Yeah.
Yeah. I mean I think what what I heard from him and I completely agree is that I think they sometimes focus on us on the wrong thing. because I d I do and actually there are like if you look at some of the Gallup things like that, I have a best friend at work. It's driving it's it they have said ca time and time again, if you have a relationship at work that with somebody that you really trust, that you have d high equity, like from from Jason's word, around that, then then you will be
more committed to the organization, which and same with like and so there's another question on Gallup's engagement survey that is about your leader and how like your relationship and the things you get to do with your leader. So I think it depends what kind of engagement survey you're talking about. And I but I asked I a hundred percent Yes. when I think that where where we've been helping teams rethink gathering data is this concept that so so maybe I'll I'll start by saying that every relationship we have is
Well.
It's fluid, right? It's not we don't just like fall in love and then we're here at this like right, like with our spouse or partner, right? And we're here all the time at this peak. There's all these other layers to the relationships we have with people. And so I think sometimes if we if we think about it like a we're just hiking a mountain till we get to the peak and then we just stay there forever, it's the wrong way to think about that. Just like it that's the wrong way to think about the way our team is in our organization or where their organization is. It's
It's a living organism. And so I often say to leaders is like if you're doing an engagement survey or any kind of survey with the the sole goal of getting a hundred percent and driving to try to get a hundred percent and driving yourself a little nuts to go, how can we do this a hundred percent? You've missed the point. You've totally missed the point. Because the engagement survey or whatever data you're collecting is to tell you where it's to guide you on where you have to nurture more within your team.
And it's just to me it's the compass. It provides that guide. And then and then you infuse it with like taking that time to build that tr relational trust with people or you know, taking the time to communicate better so they can trust you more. Like whatever that is. And so to me, that's what a survey does is it tells you where to nurture the the if you think about it like an ecosystem as a
Should it be an equity survey? Should we just change it?
Yeah, you could. I I don't know. Yes, I don't I think I do Yeah, to it's a pulse. Like I love there's a leader we work with who talks about it as a drum beat and I love it. It's just this constant cadence and a rhythm and checking in. That's all it is. Music Yeah. So we do it wrong. I think I mean I actually think at large organizations you could very easily do it in meetings. Like what we do all the time is at the beginning of a meeting with any if it's a two hour meeting
I'm not gonna hold.
Does this, that's why we get pulled into it.
If it's an hour-long meeting, we always start with a word cloud using a free polling tool to say, How are you walking in thinking and feeling? Or like what are you feeling as you're walking in today? We get a word cloud. Usually it's like busy, tired. And we always say that the reason we do this is to check in. Yeah, one word check in. So you can do that even at a round table. And the reason we do it for two reasons. We always say this every time is the first is to understand w where the room is at, like how people are feeling. And the second is to
One word check in.
help you understand that as we go through these conversations, everybody is coming in with maybe a slightly different feeling or frame of mind. And you have to Yes, offer some grace. And so you may be super excited about this meeting. And the person next to you is feeling exhausted and tired because they were up all night because their kid was sick or something. And so they're not matching your level of enthusiasm. Yeah. You give them grace. And then at the end of the meeting you ask the exact same thing. That is a pulse. That is a check. That is something that would just as e
Everyone's climbing their own mountain, right?
easily work as an engagement survey.
quote my wife here early in our relationship she'd be like Tyler just 'cause I'm not acting like you doesn't mean anything's wrong.
Yes. Ooh.
I don't hear that anymore because I think I've dropped like everything. What's going what's what's happening with you? Right. Hey. Just because I'm not acting like you. A friend of mine, going on hikes. Yeah. She'd always do like a headspace check. That was the thing. Because you you're like the first kind of half mile into the hike, you're like, today's not today, or you know, like it was always like who wants to hike who who's who wants the hike to be over, who wants it to be longer? Like where's everybody's head at? Yeah.
Right. Yes, yeah, to build that
Flat, that collaboration, that like, hey, like this doesn't s you seem off. I'm not I'm not telling you you're off, I'm asking what's going on. Because it's not labeling and it's not like, what's wrong with you? You acted a certain way, or or hey, you should act differently. You should F you know what I mean? Like the percentage of people that have calmed down once being told to calm down, I think is zero. Creating space, being curious and having enough trust, but also just letting it be whatever it is. Not not not trying to micromanage.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's true. I it r reminds me of kind of in in middle of the pandemic, some of the the researchers talking about what was going on for people. and I remember I think it was Adam Grant time. my gosh, I know and it's it's hard to believe. It's but Adam Grant was talking about how what we were missing by working from home and just like logging into meetings after meeting after meeting was the the context that we would get about people when we would see them in person. And so
and we took it for granted, I think, about how important it was where you see s you you see a colleague kind of rushing into the office for a meeting. You you don't they don't have to say a word to you. You know that maybe they're feeling a little frazzled.
Versus the moment their screen comes on you have no idea what happened before. Exactly.
And so, and so really it was this idea of like we, you know, I I always thought that the pandemic for many leaders just put a spotlight on some of their blind spots as a leader that they took for granted because they were in person. And it required us to remember what was important. And so even I think you s you get into a meeting with a group of people, even if you're in person, taking that moment to just provide some context. How people are walking in is so it's a it's a way to build trust and equity.
And it's a way to just create a little bit of grace for however people need to show up that day.
Yeah, I love it. don't you and Adam Grant share a similar PhD? No, I'd be I'd be remiss if I hadn't brought that up. enrollment into your program went up when when everyone realized He puts out some awesome content. Yeah it's punchy, it's it makes you think it it's right up my alley. So I think maybe that's probably why you and I get along so well. you say things that make me go, hmm, I ponder this thing at
Yes. Yeah. Yes, he's the poster child.
Yeah, before he
Yeah. And he's so brilliant. I mean, he really like can list off the research like that. It's not it's not quite as much of a s yes. but he did I remember even in grad school they used to tell us like how we explained to people what I psychology was and now I feel like I don't have to do that anymore 'cause he's just nice famous.
Has some superpowers.
no, it kind of makes the market bigger and better for everybody. I love it. I felt I was remiss if I didn't touch them out. All right, let's jump into the next clip. The more I the more I spend time in leadership, the more I see my role as coaching and helping elevate the people around me. Helping and elevating the people around me. Coach seems like the appropriate word to use in that setting. Yeah. Which usually means being curious about them, asking more questions. Hey, like what if this wasn't as serious as we think it is? I'm not saying you're you're wrong, but let's just play around for a minute. I've gotten
Better at that with time when I started to embrace it versus like, let me solve your problem for you. Yeah. That was not coaching and that was not also successful for me.
Yeah. Yeah, that's really interesting. I think more so than ever now. I feel I am that the the making better leaders is is my job. Yes. Like more so than did. So more so than I did as as as COO or in prior roles. Yeah.
Yeah.
Do you think all CEOs share that? Or sorry, how widely is it or isn't shared? Not do all things. That was a binary question. Yeah. That was a bad way to ask it.
I don't not all of them. No, I think yeah. I'd be curious to know how your relationships changed with people when you started to view your job as as coaching them.
Mm.
Tell me more.
Less directive, more curious, more what's going on for you versus be more like this. Feed back to my feedback comment from earlier. It became more about
Okay, what's what do I see for you versus just do it the way I want? Mm-hmm. Because that was like I I know the best way because I'm the leader, right? Right. Because I built a company that made me the leader, so then no for I was the smartest person here. Yeah. What a silly, ridiculous thing to say. But for a long time I believed it. I I I believed it subconsciously, but I acted it out. When I moved to more of a coaching role, I was more curious. I was more the podcast host. Yeah. What's going on with you? Like, hey, like I see this thing, seem you got a lot on your plate. Walk me through what's happening here.
Like work work, not I want to help you. It's like walk me through and then we'll see where I can support or where I can't. Can I re make friction? It just changed the way I showed up. And my feeling and my sense and the outcomes I saw were the relationships got deeper, but the performance increased. Like 'cause this is still about work. This wasn't curious for the sake of curiosity for life, which I think is a table stake. But ultimately things need to happen and we need to move forward. There's always time, there's always financial pressure, there's every kind of pressure you can think of. I saw better outcomes and
Better people stuck around for longer. The tenure on my team went up. Like a lot of all the things that I can measure that I thought were worth measuring improved. Just you And I'm gonna say selfishly I enjoyed it more. As like let's not let's not knock that out potential.
Yeah, you
It feels good when you unleash other people. Yeah. And you get to see them grow into ways you never and maybe even they never imagined. I think where the trap that I see some leaders fall into is they think they're coaching, but they're actually mentoring or giving advice. they're in a space where they they're still sitting in that expert seat. Okay. And they're still and and there is it comes again from a very genuine desire to to share their learning.
and and provide some ideas. but it can be a trap sometimes when when they when you get into this expert seas. When you ask me that question, is where do you see them go wrong? Is that it's they have every intention to want to share their knowledge. but sometime like everybody is on their own journey. And so I remember like do supporting organizations with mentoring programs and teaching mentors how to how to connect with mentees. And the biggest thing was like get good at sharing your stories.
and asking good questions because y you're never gonna be able to create a l and create and package a lesson to give to somebody.
Versus what they take from what you shared. Some themes that are coming up in this one that we're gonna unpack later. I like that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so I think
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I think it's so that would be where I would say like I I love the the temperature, the check is that if you're having an impact as a good coach for people, it's it's all the things you experience.
And coach versus mentor, and I even made the j I caught myself there. Like I I I'm a coach because I said I was. The world's full of people saying they're coaches. So I want to be very and then there's a runs of people Jason who's been coaching for twenty years. Yeah. And you'll see him talk, you're like, okay, I I believe that you're that you would be an effective coach. Yes. Mentor versus coach, how would you define them just that
I I probably a little bit more like fluid about that. Like I think, yes, there's the designation of a coach, which I think is I've l much respect for that profession. And then there's the like us showing up as as leaders every day to support our people and and to guide them. So I I guess there we could probably spend a long time debating the differences in the cement. I think the thing is is the the impact, the best impact you can have is when you create space for people too.
Yeah. And it doesn't necessarily start with your advice or
Yeah, that's right. To me, it's in service of. Yes. And mentorship, coaching, advice, getting out of the way, like if I'm in service of them versus thinking they're all in service of me. Yeah. That just changes it for me. And I I think that's something I read The Servant years ago. It's a great little book. It's a lot of religious undertones, but it's still a really good book. If there, you sometimes people read it, go, whoa, I didn't know was gonna be like the lesson is great. Take it for that, just as a caveat of anyone who's read it. but I was like, it again, back to it's not about me. It's not about me.
And coaching and mentorship is I I think very fluid for me as well. I say the word coaching, but I don't it's not always what I mean. It's not about me is the point.
Yes. And I I love that. And I also think that we talk a lot, w a shift that I think we will start to see more of is this idea of legacy. Where I think I hear leaders talk a lot about I want to leave a legacy. Interesting. And what that means some t like what I've seen often is that it's a leader kind of holding on to an organization that they need to leave. but they're holding on because they want to get this thing in place and do and make sure this is all ready to go and these are and and sort of tie the bow on it.
And I think so this view that like my direct like like touch on these things is my legacy needs to be flipped. Instead, it's my legacy is actually it's the the trickle like it's what I've kind of it's the essence that I've left behind, maybe, right? It's the trickle down I've had through the people I've connected with and supported. And so, you know, you hear about people right like and so I think some like it's so that to me is a more enduring legacy.
Yeah.
than this idea of this I have touched and this is my legacy because we know that those things change all the time. Right? Like you put in a system and like, yeah, you wanted to get it just ready to go, but then in three years they're gonna have to change it anyways.
Conversation yesterday, you're triggering me on something. With we just hired an operations manager for a digital team. And she comes from two very well recognized, very large organizations that just do digital pure play. So she's worked in bigger environments. That's why we brought her in. She had it burnout, took a year off. So she's coming and she's I am here, I'm a builder, I'm ready to build. She's kind of got where she is in her career. And she was walking me through. She's I built this like massive strategy. Here's what we're gonna do. And she goes, What I'm really been observing, she's been here for six weeks. She's like, I want to caveat this with my six weeks.
Because she goes, I know you have processes in place, but she goes, All processes leave a trace. So she goes, I'm seeing traces of processes of days gone by, but they're here for a reason. And she goes, I'm seeing them work. So she says, I'm trying to find all the traces of past processes and procedures and identities so I don't trip over them while I'm trying to make it better. But her concept of leaving a trace, I thought that was so interesting. I've never heard anyone say it like that. I love it. And she's like, I'm four weeks in, five weeks in. I respect that something came before me.
But sometimes there's a trace of something and I have no idea where it came from. And she goes, I've seen it not work, but it seems to be working here. So what's going on? Yes. And she kept using the term, which was very respectful. And like, you know, you're five weeks in and you're like, here's how we should do everything, which is what we asked for. Yeah. But was the trace of past leaders, of past ideas, of people believing they were doing the right thing. And that what resonated with me when you talked about it. I'm still processing it because I listened to her do an hour long present hour and a half presentation yesterday. And she kept referencing it. And it was so respectful. Yeah. But yet everything's still up for review.
Yeah.
Yes.
It was great. And as leaders we leave a trace.
That's a wonderful way of I love that. Yeah, because you and you really do, especially as things change quickly, you have to honor the past and you have to like because people have been through that and they've been part of it. And right and so there's I think lots of spaces to to honor the past. And I and and as we get into this third part, I know like something will come up around nesting practices, which is something new.
Right, well, we'll pause. We're gonna get into we'll pause that idea. We're not pausing the show. No, no. Thanks for being on the journey so far. We're gonna dive in. We're keeping this rolling because there's so much content and you and I can talk for days. So how do we balance all that out? Growth through reflection, part three. So this is the third act of our series of four. Let's dive right in. It's so easy to say and put a sticker on your fridge. Yeah, it's hard to do.
Ignacio "Iggy" Domagalski
So what what I would personally do that I've been doing for for years is is I just go to a coffee shop.
Like there's a there's a Starbucks close to where I lived. we're we're in the country now, so not not anything too close, but there was a Starbucks. It was a little more sometimes a little little windshield time doesn't hurt either. Yeah. And Starbucks was a twenty minute walk from my house. And so I would I I would I would book, I would just call it a think day, which which was usually an afternoon or a morning. And but you were deliberate about it, which I I I was deliberate about. I would I try I tried it realistically probably happened once or twice a month to to
Iggy Domagalski (01:19:39.362)
To do that. And I would and I would go with specific problems that I wanted to solve. And I would write them on a piece of paper, just on a white sheet of paper. I would kind of write the problem. Or if there were some articles that I need that were kind of related to that, I would print those off. and then there was also, you know, some just some more kind of introspective longer term thinking exercises. And there's there's a million of them on the internet, you know. There is whether it's I I subscribe to Mind Valley and they have a lot of those types of things and the that kind of stuff.
And so I'd print some of those off. And I would just go there and I would just you know, I like tea, so I would drink tea. And for three or four hours I would just go through those things and write. And it it's just it's shocking how much progress you can make even in one or two hours of just sitting there with a coffee. Put pop on your headphones and listen to some instrumental music or something, have your coffee and just be somewhere that's not in your house and where you're and you know.
phone is off. Where all the other distractions are not readily available. Yeah. Yeah. So I never I'd never brought my computer. and I I I would have my phone, but I would I would shut it off when I was there. And and yeah, like two or three hours you can just get through and and and then I have all these handwritten notes and then you know I'd kind of pull off what I needed from there into actual action items and then and then I would kind of write the date and then I would just file it. So I've got a folder of all of that that has all of these that has all of these in there which I look back on every now and then. I love everything about that.
Yeah. I've I've met so many senior leaders and CEOs who have
Very fun.
Created habits like this that has that have really served them well, which is like carving out that space to reflect. Because reflection is the only way we learn. It's truly like there's there's a a researcher called Nick Petrie, and he talks about the three, the three ways in which adults kind of shift in their in their when they learn something, when they shift. And the three things you need is heat, so some kind of challenge that's like putting pressure on you. You need colliding perspectives.
which is the collective and so hearing other perspectives that will jolt you out of kind of the the stuckness. And then you need reflection. You need to be able to take that and let it embed and plant in yourself to shift. And I think that like the CEOs who have gotten good at this practice, then are very good at bringing it to their organization. Because I reflection I think sometimes has this
Yeah.
thing that it's very it's it's an alone thing, you should do it by yourself. And I think there's many ways to do reflection. And that's where we this that's where the nesting practice is coming. Where it's this I mean we work with the with teams where it's time dedicated. So he does two hours by himself reviewing really important. And then we have also worked with teams where we dedicate two hours a month where this team who is very busy comes together and the sole goal is to essentially nest is from McKinsey article around
nesting practices and the goal is simply to just like encounter the moment, whatever is going on for the team, whatever like they just it's like a collective breath to maybe re if it's a big change, reflect on what has changed, grieve a little about what they're they're sad that's leaving, you know
To grieve in itself is amazing. Because we try to st we stuff it.
Yeah, we stuff it and we don't talk about it and then people feel sad. And sometimes like it's not about solving anything, it's about creating that space for people just to talk about it. And and you know, we all know what it's like. Sometimes like we have like sticky problems that don't actually have solutions, but just talking about it makes you feel better about it. It's the same thing. And so that's what these practices are like. And so teams that reflect together and create this space to just have a moment of going, like look backs is an example of reflection, but like are more kind of workplace-ish.
just creating the space. And so and I think for the sometimes leaders are resistant 'cause they're like, Well, yeah, but if we have this meeting in and then we don't have anything to talk about, first of all, you're always gonna have something to talk about. Yeah, if and and you use it to build equity. but if you don't, you cancel it and everybody has their time back. But I would suggest not canceling it, like really having that space to do.
I use the word right out of the gate that I love, it's just it's a habit. But it's which means that somewhere there was a choice and sometime it just became like, we I can't bel I can't imagine not doing this. But kinda pushing through that was new doing something new like that, even if it's like can f can feel scary. Sometimes going with your own thoughts is scary.
Yeah, it's a habit, a practice, yeah.
Yes. Yeah. What I know. What are some of your practices? Because I know you are a very reflective.
well one, I podcasting. Yes. Because I put myself in an environment I love, I'm a co-creator. I like co-creating with my thoughts. I like co-creating everything in my life. And one on ones. I I'm involved and I get invited to a lot of groups where ten people will sit around. My preference is still one-on-one. Yeah. This is what brought you and I here today. You and I go for coffee two, three hours and we talk about life and stuff and everything. For me that is so, so powerful. And as you know, something I've shared and many people know me, I've recently bought a a a rural property.
And over the last kind of five years, I've got back to spending time in nature. Because I believe nature is relaxing, not because there's nothing going on, but because there's so much going on. It's just on the right frequency. And spending time in the woods, I have an emotional support tractor that I spend a lot of time with. Yeah. So I the other day I I have a very long driveway. So I spent like four hours in the tractor with my dog working on the driveway. Yeah. And what I love, and for me, when there's something that I can do.
That I have to pay attention to, but it doesn't pull up all my time. Like it's using 30% of my resources to do this thing, to grade the driveway. The other seventy percent works on this and thinks about ideas and passes and wow. Huh, yeah, maybe I could look at that differently. So I've been purposely putting a lot more on that time. For me, there if there's a enough of an action in it that fills up a little bit of my bandwidth, like going for a walk in the woods.
Takes twenty, thirty percent of energy. The other seventy percent, just sitting there staring at the wall, works for me. But if I'm physically moving or doing something, it works way better. And I've learned that over the last probably five years.
Yes. Yeah. There's there is lots of research around this movement of your body and how that can really mem with memory Yeah. There you go. Yeah you I'm Yes, yes, and also like what what I hear you say about the like w in the tractor doing the thing is you're in kind of this flow state and it's a way for you to to disconnect and rest in your brain to kinda make the connections it it couldn't make when it was f you know, focused on other maybe.
It's a make or break. If you put handcuffs on me, I can't speak I grew up in Montreal, I have to slack my hands. Different but similar
It's funny because when I was a kid, I grew up on a farm. This is almost this is filler, so I apologize. I grew up on a farm and I spent tons of time just working in the tractor. Yeah. So funny come all the way back there. But now with a busier brain with more things and more awareness and more maturity. And my wife's always like, How do you know songs so well? How do you know this song and artist? I'm like, because when I work in the tractor, I just listen to the radio for like 12 hours at a time. Is it on this farm kid life? But now I use it in a very different way. So the fact it's even come back around, I find endlessly hilarious.
Yeah, this like soundtracks to life.
It's so funny. Now I'm in my j and my and I saw a joke on Instagram the other day. It's like, my husband has an emotional support tractor. I'm like, I think I have that. Yeah.
Well there's so as
When I come back and Monday when I hit the office, I'm fresh, I feel relaxed. Twenty forty eight hours there is like being gone for two weeks for me. So it's created a balance where both have gotten better because of each other.
So research would support that. I like I'd mentioned Nick Petrie before, and I he he also posts a lot of his research on LinkedIn, which is really great. But some of the work he's looking at is around leaders who are burning out and experiencing overwhelm. And what he's finding in in his data is or talking to leaders is the ones who have really sustained high performance have have something that allows them what she c they they've sort of coined as this like other world.
So it's a way in which they flip into another world that allows them to completely disconnect from work and and creates a flow state for them. So this one leader was saying I think it they were in a tech company. It was very intense. Most people would only last about three years. This leader had been there for twelve and they had said, Well, what do you do? Like how do you manage? And he said, Well, I took up tango dancing and I do that three to four times a week. And when I'm doing that, I'm 100%
Hundred percent present. I heard a similar story, but it was clarinet playing. Yes. And people were like, You do what? And it was like his company didn't believe because his work persona was not the clarinet guy. And that's what gave him the balance. Yeah. Other world. I love it. Other world concept. Yes. I'm living it right now and it's been it's I've I've putting a name to it makes it more fun, but the the the proof is in the reality for me.
One thing too, b like before like with Iggy is that I think so leaders are very s leaders who have built in this reflection, practice or habit, often benefit a lot from it. Sometimes they'll bring it to their teams and do it with their teams. And I think sometimes where the gap is is that and and Iggy talks about it in his in in your conversation around how he then encouraged someone he was mentoring to try it. And I think this is where senior leaders
have come to this point where they've learned that this habit is valuable to them, but the operational leaders h have not accessed that and I it's modeling it and also it might even be forcing it until it becomes a habit. So creating
Yeah. Yeah.
He talks I think he talks about exactly that story. This gentleman just couldn't take the time. Yeah. Started doing the Starbucks walk and it changed his whole perspective. He really gets into it in his episode.
Yes, exactly. And so so Yeah, so permission is important and even sometimes it's scheduling the meeting and let's say it's a one on one you have with the person and if you if you have to cancel, you say to them, You ha I want you to watch or read this article, even though I can't be here with this meeting. So something to get people in the habit once they do. Yeah. It's good.
All right, let's a couple more.
Bobbie Racette
And I blamed the board. I blamed the C the new CEO at the time and was really upset about it, but I realized that that's just a part of the process. And and in order for me to understand and learn what it's like to go through an acquisition, these are the things I'm gonna have to go through so I can learn. And so I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm happy and confident that I stayed curious about it. Yes, to share. You know, but the process is happening, so I can take from it or I can feel beat up by it. Yeah.
I can choose to learn. In that and that's what I I did. Like and it that took three, four months for me to really sit there and go, I could choose to learn or I could choose to really hate this. And I I I chose to learn from it. And it was you know, like a big weight off my shoulders. And to this day, you know, when I'm talking to some of the employees that are ex employees now, you know, I I kinda make sure I'm telling them that. Like just understand this is part of the process. I
I knew that we were scaling into something that was going to eventually sell one day. And just know that you were part of the story of that to there. So be proud of that, you know. As a leader, as a human being, over the years, have you gotten better at
Putting yourself in the other person's shoes. Yes. Sometimes when we're younger, I wasn't that good at that. No. I I've I'm not saying I'm awesome at it, but I'm better at it than I used to be. And I'm hearing you talk. There was a lot of like, well, if I look at it from this side, I can learn. If I look at it from this side, I'm gonna be pissed off. Yeah. So I gotta choose. That flexibility is not always easy to do, especially in the moment. You have to dig hard within. And I've read a lot of I've read a lot of like self-health books. I've been doing a lot of like, you know,
Digging in digging in deep to get through a lot of the I'd say trauma. what a w what what a drop. What a what a drop. And I know your one of your recent passions is informed around trauma. So not to get to caught on that, but unpack that one for me. I love I yeah. I love Bobby, she makes you smile.
Yes, yeah.
I just I mean, I have so much empathy because I think leaders are sometimes in these positions where we create these relationships, right? We wanna build connection with our teams. We create these relationships that are trusting with the people on our teams. And then at the same time, we also sometimes have to juggle very difficult decisions that we know are gonna impact. Yeah, and it's so No, and and like that's the thing, right? Is like it's trying to find like the lines are blurred, people have tried to separate it so it doesn't feel so hard and
It's not personal, it's just business. That's never true.
Yeah, it's it's hard. And I I think that there isn't a right way to do it. And I love that she kind of s viewed it as a learning moment and and had the opportunity afterwards to talk to people about how it was a learning moment for her and and hopefully hear their experience too.
What's your recommend leaders like catching it in the moment? Because everything's easy, like it's when you're when you're sitting in the easy chair going, Well, if I was on the field, I would have done this versus her, like being in it three, four months of like being like I can be the victim or I can choose to learn. And and that comes in waves sometimes. And like when you're least ready for it as a leader, it can catch you out of at a left field. And then you're back on your heels or on your, you know, when do you know you're in trouble? It's like when I was lying on the ground, kinda kind of thing. Yeah. And those moments happen for leaders all the time. And is that a symptom of
Like we just wound it up so tight, so tight that one day it just kinda popped, which is the way she kind of talks about it. Even though it was intentional, it still sounded like a big moment. Yeah. It was it was. It was a big moment.
I mean I think leaders need to have people in their life who can support them in those. Like if you cannot do that alone. And so if it's, you know, sometimes board of directors are positioned as that, you know, support every once in a while for leaders, but that's just not an
Conflicting agendas there too, right? Like that's tough. That's messy. Like that's tough. Like I'm talking out of both sides of my wallet.
Yes.
Yeah. And I and I mean the both sides thing comes up even in leadership around like we often talk with leaders about polarities and how do you navigate like something like accountability and care. Right. So you so and and a polarity is is like two interdependent things that tend to that tend to feel like they're separate but actually can coexist. Okay. And so and the goal is is that there isn't a right middle. There isn't a right amount of care and a right amount of accountability. That assumes that life is
Status, right? Exactly. And the thing is, is if you hold people accountable, there's benefits to that, but there's also some unintended consequences that come up with holding people accountable. Like, you know, people might then start to feel like you hold someone accountable, they feel they can achieve things, right? But then there's a point where you hold them too accountable and they might feel like you are cold and and evil, and they might feel like they're being micromanaged, right? And and so then what we sometimes see is leaders go, okay, I need to stop.
And so neatly.
being a cold jerk and I should be more caring. And so they they go all the way over to the other pole. Yeah. And they reap the benefits at first, right? You're more caring, you build some trust, you get to know the person. Yes. And and but maybe you you know, because they trust you, they do things for you, they talk to you, they confide in you. And then suddenly though, if you're too much on there, it drops into that unintended consequence of like
Feels nicer.
Well, now they're oversharing, or I can't I feel bad because I know what's going on in their life, and now I really can't ask them to get that thing in by the deadline. And so we tend to what happens is we whiplash and it's so hard to find it. And so what we always tell leader is now what you have to do is recognize that these two things might feel like poles and and then flow between them actively. So it's very fluid. And so yes, you build connection and it can be in the same sentence.
Just tough cause we strive for this black and white.
Yes we do, right? What's the right way to do it? Yeah. And so I think the the hack if if there's one for me is always like, how can I infuse the other pole into this conversation? So so let's say I'm having a caring conversation with somebody because you know, maybe they've just come back from a really you know, they lost their pet, let's say, and they're sad and they come in and you know, I'm connecting in with them. But I also know we have a deliverable at the end of the week. Yes. And so so first it's starting with care.
That's a very real situation.
and I and then I have to think like, okay, but how can I introduce some accountability into this? And it might be that this person is deeply emotional and it's gonna be the whole hour of our meeting, like 55 minutes will be them just needing to get all out the emotion. But then I'll make sure to say, so you know, I want to return to this conversation, right? We're we're at time, right? I wanna return to this conversation, and I know we have a big deliverable at the end of the week, and I want us to talk about it so that.
We can make
I like you being comfortable enough to be clear and be specific. 'Cause if you feel uncomfortable about even bringing it it's gonna come off as
Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So it's I think there's always these and sometimes you can do you can move through care and go to accountability right away. So it's this idea that we can hold two things that feel opposite at once and how how do we Yes, yeah.
being aware of them. More leaders, and what I really liked so much about what Bobby said here, but like I've done, I'm doing the work, I'm feeling uncomfortable, I'm getting in, I'm reading the books. Are you seeing more leaders diving a bit deeper on self and like, hey, what is my where did that trigger come from? Why did I show up that way? Is that becoming more or is it just happened to be more in the people that I'm talking to recently? Because I do it a lot. Deep dive, deep dive, don't like this where it came up for I run other people
good buddy of mine and he's like, I've just never even thought about it. Like I've never taken that, like where did that come from? Yeah. What's my belief that's showing up here that I don't even realize why I have that belief. Yes. I'm seeing it, but then every once in a while I have conversations with people that are like, what do you mean talking about your beliefs? And what do you mean choosing how you feel? And I'm like, what do you mean not choosing how you feel?
Yes. interesting. I'm not sure. I I think I often in leader like when I think about programming with leaders, when we encounter leaders who are very new to the job or new to leadership, that work comes in very early on of like what are your values? What what kind of leader do you want if Yes, and so then that they've never done that work, right? And then I get leaders who are more further along in their journey more mature and they have had exposure to doing that type of work.
Back to learning how to be a leader.
Yes, exactly. And then they're really going deeper. but I w yeah, I I do I do think there's probably more emphasis on like you always get the the words of the day. So like beliefs and complexity is is now all these words of the day.
It was trendy. Okay. Yeah. It's a moving target. Yeah. All right. Well, let's continue. We got a couple more. Two more left. I had a politician tell me once I said, Tyler, when your constituency starts getting annoyed, that's when you know they're finally hearing you. I took a lot away from that. Because as a leader, there is that I keep towing the line. How do you then coach and support a leader? Or what words of of inspiration or wisdom or learned lessons you can give to people listening right now? They're going, I really want to do this.
Yeah.
But the world sucks me in. My team doesn't, you know, is too busy to have time for this. How do you be that champion, especially in the early days of creating a culture like this?
Jayson Krause
Well, it it in our method, it's around helping leaders build their operating system. Most leaders have an expert operating system. I'm an expert in my field. Yeah. You know, you you said it processes, tactics. But what is your leader operating system?
And how do we get you into the cycle of experimentation? And the model that we use, borrowed from high performance sport, is really it's A I E R. And A is awareness. The awareness is the entity to transformation. So every every conversation, a universal foot sweep that shocks us and wakes us up to a different way, everything big and small.
Is an opportunity to challenge our awareness of ourselves, our business, our situation. And here's the gift: whenever that happens, we get to ask ourselves, take us to I, intention. How do I want to engage with this situation? What do I want the result to be? Where we get intentional about here's the situation, here's how I want to engage with it. And then based on that intention, which is really a hypothesis, you move to E.
What's the experiment that's going to test this intention? That if it works, what do I want it to be? And so we identify the experiment, the exercise, whether it's a I need to have a difficult conversation with Tyler to course correct this behavior or this situation. So then I get intentional about what I want that to look like. And then I go do it. And then I come back. And that's the R, the reflection piece. This is like watching game film as an athlete.
What worked, what didn't, what's next? Which then becomes this never ending cycle that brings you back to A awareness. What new awareness do I have as a result of this action I took with Tyler? So good. I feel like that one summed up so much of what we've been talking about the last couple episodes. But we're landing on such similar common ground.
Mm-hmm.
Yes. Yeah, there's like some good coherence here around like how this all comes together and the
From very different leaders from very different worlds, which is what I love. It might start to be true.
Yeah. Well and I I mean I guess what I hope for is, you know, when my kids are are old enough to be leaders in their organizations, like hopefully we're not talking about expertise anymore. Hopefully we have interesting you know, shifted to the way we work. Like I I'm hoping this is a belief for our time that we can move through and past and and adopt some of the
And people will look back and go, my god, these people in the twenty twenty sixes they were
I know, like they didn't start meetings with a meditation, which is like actually very common around the world in so many places outside of North America. So I do
That's a great that's a great where people be like, Well what?
What? Yeah. Like so so I do h I always say that I really hope
Version we have is the version we just have right now. It's gonna be different. It's gonna look ridiculous in probably well, maybe next week.
It'll be I'm
Yeah. Well I want it to be like how smoking on airplanes feels to us. It's so we know it existed. Yeah, so weird. Yeah, and teach people to put seatbelts on. Right. Like there's so many so I I would love Yes. Yeah, yeah. Well I mean even
Throwing garbage out your window while you're driving. There's a time where we had to teach people to stop doing that.
I remember that, so shut up.
My mom puts you seam alone. It's the rules now, right now. This is ridiculous. Why am I putting seamlada? But things were growing into and things we're growing out. Yes. And there's a lot of resonance here. Yeah. Of different perspectives.
So there I hope there's things.
Yeah. And I I mean so the two things that what he talks about reminds me of is the experimenting, which I think you and I both love this idea. And I I I took for granted, and maybe it's because of my academic explorations as well, that people understood what it meant to experiment in their daily lives. And I've come to learn like notch like it's easy, this should be easy.
Awareness and intention are pretty clear, but yeah, unpack experiment for us.
Do you mean boy? Yes. And I and I think even this idea of like, I have to have a a hypothesis, and I I actually would would make it simpler than that, even and that it's and I love Lauren Le Conf, she has a whole a great TED talk on called Tiny Experiments and has written a book. And essentially it's this idea that the goal of an experiment is to learn. That is it. It's not that's it. And so if you already know what your planning will happen.
It's not an experiment. Right. Because you already know the answer. so if the goal is not learning, it's not an experiment. So we want to learn. And then what Ann always or Laura Ann talks about is she'll say, Well, you just do, you say, I'm gonna do this for X amount of time. I'm gonna do X for X amount of time. So you make it very time bound. And the goal is that once you hit the timing, then you figure out if you are going to keep it, are you going to pivot it a little bit, or maybe you're gonna pause it.
And so so then you have but it's only and then you reflect exactly. So you always need to have that reflection to come in. But I think and so what when we've worked with leaders to say, you know, how do we what's the tiny experiment based on what we've just talked about today? Sometimes these experiments are so big that they come up with, right? It's like, I'm gonna write a book
And then you reflect.
We s we love to overcomplicate.
Exactly. Yeah, it's so and I mean I get it, I everyone has best intentions to do the best they can or they have these big ideas and we had one leader who wanted to write a newsletter for their staff and it was it was a big addition to everything else this leader had on their plate. And so the tiny experiment though is not write a newsletter every week. It's you know, make a note of the things that you are proud of this week or make a note of the things that you
And just write those for the next five
Also, isn't that the best formula to create a good habit as well? Yes. Like if we're gonna get into atomic habits or any of those, like that is the formulation of a good practice.
Right, yeah. Yeah. And it might be and then at the end of the experiment you look back, you say, Actually I loved that habit of writing, but I'm gonna write something different and then you try something different and so so it's exact
Someone your team sees it, they offered help because they were excited by it. Like all the things that like we could sit here all day. We're gonna know something a week from now that we didn't know today. Yeah. Because stuff happened.
Yeah. So tiny experiments are gonna be at it we had another team, one of their tiny experiments was to get rid of one priority a week. And so they're that and it was really hard for them and what they realized after two weeks of trying to do this was that they weren't aligned on what was most important. So one person was trying to get a rid of a priority that someone else and so it
I'm all about it.
Well it's the Eisenhower matrix. It's the urgent versus important and a breakfast group where we call and we write stuff down. yeah. And if we can't really like so what it to the other person, it they take it and literally throw it away. On your behalf. They're like, Well, you're so what really was weak. So clearly this is not important. So
That's really good. Yeah. Having other people. So I mean you can do it as a team.
And that again, trusted peers and that type of thing. So I need to make my experiments smaller is what I'm is what I'm personally taking.
Tiny, tiny, tiny. And you can do it as a team. Do it as a team. And I think that's where we really unlock some cool advantages when they start to do it as a team. The other thing I want to pull on is this idea of intention. I think that's so important because sometimes we tend to focus on on solving or the outcome. Like to be to solve something, as opposed to thinking through like what are we really intending to do here? And and the flip of it is like 'cause we're clear.
Right, we if we spend so much time trying to solution it, then it's then we sometimes miss cool opportunities. You totally lose the plant. Yeah. So
When you lose the plot.
And I appreciate how again Jason loves he is great with his frameworks. Yes. But taking time and understanding what each one of those things means, you know, it's funny, our audience is watching us, but we keep looking up. So we have a great screen in the studio here where we're looking. So on the one we just went through, and we'll put it in the show notes. But the, you know, AIER, awareness, intention, experiment, reflection. Also taking a few minutes to just understand what each one of those words means to you.
Yes. And I I think you can practice them each in their own right. It doesn't have to be in in the flow of a like I think sometimes we worry that we have to follow certain steps. And you know what, if you just got really good at awareness and intention and experimentation.
The engineers, the accountants, everyone who's listening just gotten really annoyed. They're like, finally you gave me a framework. You two conceptual talkers. I want a framework I can follow. All right, I think we got we got one more we're gonna get into here. Fab what a fabulous conversation. I heard someone say this the other day and I loved it. They were a leadership coach and they actually go on this long walk when they onboard a new client a new a new coaching client. And they actually part of their walk there is a cemetery. And when they get to the cemetery, I said what part of your old leadership has to die for you, the new leader you want to be to grow.
Yeah.
So we're not in a graveyard. We're not in a graveyard, but I thought the visualization was powerful. So for you, because you're right in it right now and you kind of touched on it. Yeah. What part of maybe COO Jen has to pass away respectfully? We'll have a nice funeral and everything. We'll have a party after. for the new CEO, CEO gen to to come alive. Yeah.
I think kind of what I just said, right, is getting out of the weeds and and getting out of people's business. as far as I'll see something and my instinct would be if I see some email come in that could be a new potential event client, for example. And I'm like, my god, Megan, this is a white glove and and it's like, no, she already knows that. Like we I don't we don't need to I don't need to keep doing this, right? And so it's like and I'm I'm doing it because I'm excited, not because I'm like making sure it's gets done. Like it's I'm
Doesn't always get perceived that way by the people that you do it to. Speaking again, personal experience. they didn't you didn't find my meddling helpful?
I blown.
Yeah, yeah. But I always I always apologize, right? Like it's like I know I know you that and so then I just yeah I'm like, Okay, go like pull out of those.
So what part of pre PhD Megan has to die for a new PhD Megan to excel with her PhD in her new business, which is Pebble?
well this for me it's the moving from learner mode to now teacher or like sharing the sharing of the wisdom mode, right? Like you I kinda get stuck in my own like I was, you know, me and my computer and my research, right? And then you you take it out to the world. I'm sure like what it was like with a book, right? You take it out. People people have a relationship with it that you it was just you and it for a long time and then now it's yeah, so it's
Those are two very different parts of the journey.
I think that that would be the moving that shift. Yeah.
How critical is that as a concept, as a theory, for leaders, especially as they move up in their organizations, to let go of what made them successful here won't make them successful there? And how hard is it?
So hard. Yeah, I don't know. D like do you find it hard? Yeah, it's so hard.
And it's super hard. I just call this life and I'm working on it all the time. Yes. And you know, you ever hang out with friends from years ago and then all of a you're like, why am I acting like the person from 20 years ago? I don't want to be like because it's just familiar and it works and it shows up in my leadership all the time. Especially let's turn up the stress a little bit. Yeah. Let's turn up the time pressure. Let's turn up the consequences. And command and control Tyler likes to show up. Yes. But to be curious, Command and Control Tyler had to take a permanent vacation. Yes. But under stress.
Whoa, he is on deck, ready to go. Ready to go. So yeah, I wrestle with this all the time. I just I you know that what did you have to give up to make room for X? Yeah. So putting it into that concept of like, Okay, we're gonna we're in the cemetery. What part are we leaving here? Yes. I love the like it's visceral.
Yeah. And I think I mean command and control Tyler w served a very good purpose for a very long time for other things. And now now you're in kind of a new space and so I d Yes, yes. and so I think well I mean and if we kinda think about the journey we've been on, it's like this expertise, it's imagining who else who who do I want to be next, right? I'm not
He likes compliments as well. Tyler was
I love this is our last one. Yes. Because it is the culmination of like everyone was letting go of something while adapting to something new. And being deliberate about it. Like what like going, what did I give up versus what are you going to give up? Yeah. I think this also changes the dynamic.
Yeah. Or yeah. Intention. Yes. I it's so good. And then and then you move into this place, well, then how do I step into a space where I can have, you know, the collective and the co-creation of all these other ways in which we come to something new? And then and then it's this constant reflecting. And so it's this bit of a loop. It's like, okay, then now that I am aware of all these other things, what's next? And then you just keep kind of doing the circle, I think, of of which is growing, which is why there is no
That and like that's the payoff, right? Yes. You are now be able to have a greater impact on the world around you. You just your idea ideas and your c capability for ideas got bigger and better because you're bringing in all these resources around you. It's not what's one mind, it's a c it's it's a joint mind. Yeah. Like what is the ultimate payoff of this whole journey? It's you get to feel like you're growing constantly. And for me, I will be my that's my payoff. Because if I don't feel like things are moving forward, I will find a way to make sure they do. And I'll go learn and I'll make myself uncomfortable and
But there is an unlock of like, I want to give up the way I used to be. I want to give up being the expert as my identity. I need to give up. I don't have time. I'm I'm busy. Don't show how busy I am. I can't reflect. Yes. Giving up all those old stories, the payoff actually comes pretty it comes quicker than I think most people realize. It's not years. It's sometimes it's sometimes the next day.
so true. No. Yes. Well, and you open up all these different like fields of of opportunity and feedback and ideas. It's so yeah. So I'd be curious to know 'cause so something that really bugs me is the there's I've seen this around lately as a picture. It's often at like leadership sessions, which I'm about. Not ones that I'm doing, but others. And so it's a picture of a mountain peak and it's like some men in suits wearing briefcases, like
I'm not saying that.
climbing up the mountain. and so and the positioning or yeah, the conclusion you're supposed to make is that the goal is to get to the summit and and be there forever and ever and ever. And so I'd be curious to know like what what metaphor would you or what what visual, what what is something that you think about in terms of like how we would approach this journey in leadership.
Well, the original cover for this was suggested to be The Mountain on the Mountaintop, and I've rejected it violently. No, no, no. Yeah. I don't know if I would say that that my vision for is a rutabaga. That was more to make you curious and be a bit nutty and and just stand out. So what would what would be the visual for me? It's almost the, you know, it's a sci-fi image. You're standing on a kind of like a plateau on some weird planet somewhere. I've had this vision s d like in like deep meditation or like getting massaged and it keeps coming back to it.
And it's almost like a Marvel movie. But it's just the expanse of the universe. And it's like it's intrigue. You're separate from it, but yet you're part of it. And the possibilities are endless. And there's so much more going on than what you've realized, what you, what I realized before. And I've had this recurring vision, just getting a massage, and you know all of a your Brian is somewhere and you come out of it, you're like, where was I? What was going on? So I have no idea what it's about. I don't need to read into it. it's not spirituality, it's not not spirituality. But it was just this such an expanse of
So much potential, but you're not separate from it, you're actually part of it. And that's the image that comes up for me, like from my heart, when you ask that question. No filter, no, does that sound weird? Sure, I don't care. It's inspiring. And I've chosen it's come up more than I've seen it more than once. Cool. So I'm like, okay, but it's I'm not separate from it, I'm part of it. Yeah. Which then it isn't, I'm not doing it alone because that's none of us are alone. That's a ridiculous concept. Yes. That's very like what? We're not. Like we're part of it. Yeah. That's the vision that comes from me. Yeah. Not like
The mountaintop with the brief that's ridiculous. No. Like please, please put a can we put a bone in that? What do you get when you get to the you know, what's what's the joke? my god, there's a false summit. There's three more summits. Yeah. But that's okay. Yeah. That's part of the experience for me. So it's the plateau of expanse, not the straight up climb for me. Yeah. That's my I got went way deep on that question.
Yes, I would like to.
And like as you were talking about I love it, because then I was imagining you on your tractor and like in in nature, right? And you just think of the cycle of it all, right? And how we're all just kind of part of this world. So I like for me the the metaphor is is a river journey. Like I it and it's like constantly flowing. You're like your destination will continue to change as you reach one. What's the next? And sometimes you're
I'm going there this afternoon.
Like being on a river, you're like, Well, what's around the next bend? Yes, yes. What's it gonna be? And there's always a little bit Sometimes it's rapids. Yes. Yeah. Sometimes it's not, sometimes it's calm water.
Yeah.
And I think it's sometimes you're voting with others and sometimes you're you're in a moment of pause with with like on the side. And so I think and it's sometimes it's shallow and deep. So I love that. My my business partner Alicia loves the idea of like it's just sort of a mountain range. And so it's like the whole and ups and downs, ups and downs. It may be some rocky sometimes too, but it's fair enough. The idea is that is like it's a it's a long game, a long journey. And
Fooths, less rocky.
And how are you kind of seeing it that way versus like I'm trying to hit some
And something since we're since we're here and we're having this type of conversation. And if you're listening with us, you've stuck around. So kudos to you. I've realized this even with the land. I own this land, huh, but it's not my land. I'm just a steward. Yeah. When you talk about leaving trace and leaving legacy. Yes. What's legacy? That path, that animal path that I found was there hundreds of years before I got there. And it will be there after me. You think about the people that you interact with in your leadership, how's it any different?
They're gonna we're all gonna come and go. We're all gonna interact. But do you leave a trace? Do you leave a legacy? Did you have a positive impact? Were you a steward to help that person be a better version of themselves at that time? That changes everything. Takes the pressure off, but also is more rewarding at the same time. It's it's it's so it's so funny. Thank you, Megan, for an amazing conversation.
said. I love it. Thank you. This was so much fun. Loved it. Okay.