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The Space Between – Heaven on Earth is a companion podcast to Awakening – Heaven on Earth.
Through intimate, heart-centered conversations, this series explores the lived experience of awakening — the questions, integrations, paradoxes, and sacred pauses where transformation truly occurs.
This is the space between knowing and becoming…
where Heaven meets Earth through honest dialogue.
Welcome to the space between heaven on earth. This is a companion podcast to awakening heaven on earth created as a space for reflection, conversation, and lived experience. Here, we enter the pause between knowing and becoming, between insight and embodiment, between heaven and earth. These conversations are not about answers or conclusions. They are about presence, about listening, about reasoning together, about meeting one another honestly in the unfolding journey of awakening.
Jeffrey Aylor:I'm your host, Jeffrey Aylor. Again, welcome and thank you for entering The Space Between with us. Welcome to this episode of the space between. Throughout this season, we have explored unity from many different perspectives, different angles. We've looked within ourselves.
Jeffrey Aylor:We've looked into our relationships, our families, our communities, our stewardship of creation and life, and we've even shared wisdom that's found across many spiritual traditions. But today we're gonna turn to one of the most profound expressions of unity found specifically within the Christian tradition, but elements of this certainly exist across most all the other spiritual traditions as well. And this episode is called Christ in all the consciousness of unity. So for many people, the word Christ is going to immediately bring to their mind Jesus, Jesus of Nazareth, and rightly so, because as you know, Christians believe that Jesus is uniquely revealed. He he uniquely revealed God's love through his life, his teachings, his death, and resurrection.
Jeffrey Aylor:And yet the New Testament of. See, it also speaks of Christ in ways that invites us to see beyond that history and that person alone and recognize Christ as the very living presence of God. That draws all creation towards a reconciliation and love and unity. So today we want to explore what this particular invitation means to our lives since the significant majority of people that probably listen to the podcast or that we're familiar with or spend time with are of a Christian background. I think it's important that we touch on this because if Jesus can become a to be very honest, Jesus can become a divisive topic.
Jeffrey Aylor:And I think it's important that we that we deal with this. So I'm going to ask. First of all, we'll invite Pornadevi to our discussion, and we wanna welcome Joe Dermody today. And I'm gonna ask each of you this opening question and and just get your thoughts on when you hear the phrase Christ at all. What does that mean to you personally?
Purna Devi:For me, you know, having deconstructed Christianity in my own upbringing and focusing heavily for, you know, a decade and a half on Buddhist teachings and Hindu philosophy and studying other faith traditions, Christ consciousness to me, Christ in all means that every living being is divine. In Buddhism, they say Buddha consciousness. In Christianity, they say Christ consciousness. And so for me, Christ in all, Christ isn't something that is outside of me. Christ is something that lives in my heart.
Purna Devi:Cynthia said, the kingdom of heaven is not a place you go after death. It's a quality of being. So Christ in all, right, is a quality of being. It's a universal presence and every one of us possesses it. The folks we love, the folks we admire, the folks whose values oppose our own, the folks we appear to be in opposition with, every being, whether we're veiled to it or not.
Purna Devi:Right? So we can see a lot of folks that are able to harm others. And so the Christ in all is, you know, beyond the programming. It's the true self. It's the soul self.
Purna Devi:It's the god consciousness within.
Joe Dermody:So for me, it's it's taking the emphasis away from it's shifting it, shifting the emphasis from the physical being of Christ to the awakening to awakening the to to the spirit of Christ itself, to the spirit of of love, compassion, forgiveness, humility, and the unity with God. Don't and and not not stop focusing on the physical and straight to that that spiritual side. To to go to one sentence, I think, or a shorter version of that, to see Christ in all is to recognize the the sacred worth, the divine potential, and shared unity that exists in all of us to respond and then to respond to that with love. I don't know. Just going from that physical to the spiritual side of it, I think.
Jeffrey Aylor:Yeah. For me, obviously, growing up in a strong fundamental Christian household, I always thought that Christ was Jesus's last name, that Christ was synonymous with Jesus, and that there was only one Christ. Right? The Christ, not a spirit of being that I now have come to understand and believe is the spark of God within every, not just every person, This same spark of God, this life, this creative essence is in all creation. So, you know, I even think of of a scripture that talked about how there was a rock that gave water to the Israelites in the Old Testament, and in the New Testament, it tells us that that rock that followed them and provided that to them was Christ.
Jeffrey Aylor:And I've always wondered how could Christ be? It's a rock. Was that Jesus? Was, you know, so it's it's you talk about confusion. Whenever you try to make Jesus and Christ synonymous, although he was, he fully embodied and he fully exhibited the Christ.
Jeffrey Aylor:He was not the only Christ, and I think that is has been quite liberating for me, and to point that Christ not only exists in every person, those we love, those we don't love, but Christ exists. The Christ essence, the the Christ spirit, that spark of God exists in all life, all creation. So based on that, hey, I think we're gonna have a great discussion, so I think that gets us right into the first section of questions where you know what do we mean by Christ? Because I think it's really important, and I know in the work that I do, one of the things that we that we teach is something that we call operational definitions. You got to have a very clear definition of something before you can really discuss it with other people, because you may have two people with completely different definition of Christ.
Jeffrey Aylor:Right? So growing up, what was your understanding of Christ, and how has that understanding evolved?
Purna Devi:You really hit the nail on the head, you know, speaking about you know, Christianity and believing that Christ is Jesus' last name. What a what a perfect way to put that. Right? Richard Rohr said Christ is not Jesus' name. Christ is a universal presence.
Jeffrey Aylor:Yeah.
Purna Devi:But growing up, like many of us in the Western world have been taught, Jesus Christ was one man, right, the son of Christ, the son of God, a white man, even though we know he was Middle Eastern with brown skin
Jeffrey Aylor:Right.
Purna Devi:Did not look in our image, so to speak. And he was outside of us judging us, punishing us, rewarding us. Right? It was this reward and punishment system, and that never jived with me. Right?
Purna Devi:I think Christ is is a loving entity. Christ, right, in modern contemplative conversation is a an example of divine love. But that is not the example from this Baptist brimstone and hellfire, you know, sort of example we we received growing up. I you know, it was fear based. It was fear based, and it was do this or.
Purna Devi:Right? And there's a lot of, I think, gaslighting in, certain spiritual circles that something bad happens to you. And it's not because we're human, you know, spiritual beings having a human experience here that involves suffering by its very nature, but it's what did you do? God is punishing you. And that never sat well with me.
Joe Dermody:I think for me, was always very confused growing up because I didn't I didn't understand. I didn't understand religion at all. I didn't understand the only religion I was ever really exposed to when I was younger was the the Christian religion. And even that was very fleeting. I mean, starting off at the Baptist church when I was very young, going to Methodist church, going to, you know, different Catholic ceremonies either through the funerals or weddings or just, you know, different services here or there with friends.
Joe Dermody:But all of that very not not very often at all. So I I really didn't understand it. I didn't know. So my my understanding of Christ was just a very loving person, very he was always full of humility and forgiveness, compassion. He was the one I prayed to because that's what I was taught.
Joe Dermody:But I didn't really understand. I didn't know. Now after doing more studying and I I say as a child and growing up. I mean, I that's all the way up through, you know, just two or three years ago. Right?
Joe Dermody:And I'm still learning and growing up, and I always will be. That's my plan always is to continue learning and continue evolving. But I've done a lot more research through college and after college just recently, but I I see him now as I think that Christianity needed someone to help personify the ideas for this unification, for this compassion, for all the the stuff they needed to teach, and I think that was Jesus. And and it's it's making a lot more sense now. It's a lot easier to understand these ideals if you put them in a person.
Joe Dermody:It's a lot easier to tell a story about all of this if you put them if you embody them in a person. I think all the religions do this through their gods. And while they don't call Jesus a god per se, they they kinda do. So that's how my my thinking of him has shifted as I'm starting to evolve and see this a little bit differently.
Jeffrey Aylor:You know, for me, obviously, I I taught that Jesus was one of three parts of a godhead, that he was equal to the father who, in Christian terms would be the creator to God. Right? And. You know, having. Taught these things, you know, it's so interesting to me how as I look back at it, I could feel the dissonance in my heart, in my head teaching this, but.
Jeffrey Aylor:I knew what I was reading was not. Not really consistent with that. I think the most important thing that's evolved again is that I do not see Christ as a person. Christ is a state of being. It's a state of it's it's a state of awareness and consciousness of our godlike nature, and that I believe is what Jesus did come to show people is that you too can live this.
Jeffrey Aylor:When it says that Jesus showed us the way, the truth, and the life, he showed us how. He showed us we could do it. He told us we could do greater things than he could do. Yet, growing up, I was taught that Jesus Christ was God, and I'm not God, so he's outside of me. He's separate from me.
Jeffrey Aylor:He's at such a higher state than I am. I could never obtain that. I could never be that, and if I ever said that I could, then that would be blasphemy, and I'm in somehow exalting myself in a position that, quite honestly, throughout the scriptures, I was being told I was supposed to obtain to Christ in you, the hope of glory. Oh, oh, till Christ be formed in you. Right?
Jeffrey Aylor:And I keep seeing these teachings that say I can be, and I'm supposed to be Christ. In fact, the word Christian means little Christ, little Christ. You're to be a little Christ. And so anyway, my understanding, once I realized that that Christ is not a person, Christ is not a specific being like his or Jesus, they're not equal, That Jesus was an example of someone who was just demonstrating to Christ, and that we could like him do that and be that that totally shifted my perspective, totally shifted the way that I read scripture, way that I understood scripture, and it really put me at significant odds, obviously, with the vast majority of people that I had was in association with. And but then I also recognize as I continue to evolve and look into other faith traditions, that they all have the same concept taught within them.
Jeffrey Aylor:They just don't use the Greek word Christos or Christ. Right? So what I what I don't want us to do ever is exclude the concept that's being taught by other other traditions that's teaching the same essence, the same light, the same spirit. So with that, you know, obviously all of us growing up in a Christian background, you know, there were different qualities. You know, Jesus would what what really speaks to you today deeply that Jesus taught?
Purna Devi:Well, first, I wanna touch on a few things you said and backtrack a bit, right, about how this concept is found in other faith traditions, and there are many yogic masters and Hindu teachers that believe that Jesus was an avatar of divine love just as lord Krishna.
Jeffrey Aylor:Right.
Purna Devi:Krishna, Christ, Christo. Right? And so Krishna and Jesus are one in the same. And we have these ascended masters, and they see humanity and their suffering, and they kinda tag one another in and say, okay. It's your turn to go down and try to support these humans and show them the way just as Buddha did.
Purna Devi:Right? Just as Krishna did. Just as Abraham did. Right? And so we have these we have these, avatars.
Purna Devi:And so for me, Jesus is an avatar, but I love your question. Right? What, what qualities? And I mentioned last time the beatitudes. Right?
Purna Devi:And and those for me, I think, having studied the beatitudes through a, yogic lens really cracked my heart wide open. My swami, swami, shout out to Swamiji. He taught the beatitudes. And I sat in the class and sobbed because there was something about those teachings that came through so pure and and really in that instant healed my relationship with a broken, with a broken Christianity. Right?
Purna Devi:A Christianity I saw harm others, a Christianity that I myself felt harmed by, and the relationship with Jesus. So what are some of those teachings? Right? Be still. Oh, sorry.
Purna Devi:Be still and know that I am God. I wanted to bring that up too. Right? Be still and know that I am God. So number one, that God is within me.
Purna Devi:And it's through the stillness that I can connect with my divine nature. It isn't through the noise. It isn't through the accumulation of material possessions. It isn't what I wear to church on Sunday. Right?
Purna Devi:But Jesus sat with the meek. Right? Blessed are the meek. Blessed are the peacemakers. Blessed are those who mourn.
Purna Devi:Blessed are those who are poor in spirit. Blessed are the merciful. Right? Blessed are those who are hungry and thirst for righteousness. That doesn't speak to true hunger.
Purna Devi:That speaks to those who see injustice in the world, Right? And and crave justice for humanity. Blessed are those persecuted for righteousness. Just you've talked so many times, Jeff, about how you have this awakening through your own faith. And and I did the same.
Purna Devi:Right? And all of a sudden, my Christian brothers and sisters are outcasting me. And this is not a a norm or this is not a, an individual story. This is a collective experience of those who are supposed to be my spiritual kin, but all of a sudden, we begin discerning and questioning and all of a sudden we're persecuted. Right?
Purna Devi:So blessed are those who question and who remain faithful despite difficulty, despite, you know, those casting stones. Right? I've had a personal experience I've touched on in a few of these episodes with someone really trying to tarnish my integrity and my divine nature. And it has been a difficult gift and challenge to sit within my God consciousness, my Christ consciousness. Right?
Purna Devi:And to forgive actively to to to hold on to my dignity, my divine nature, my true essence. Right? These are the teachings. And, you know, as we know, Jesus sat with the poor. He sat with the drunk.
Purna Devi:He sat with the prostitutes. He wasn't hanging out with the rich ones. Right? What do they say about the camel and the needle?
Jeffrey Aylor:Yep. It's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle.
Purna Devi:Than a rich man.
Joe Dermody:Mhmm.
Purna Devi:Right? And so I think that these are the teachings for me that I wish I saw melting into the hearts of, of others that are misguided in their way of either Christianity or their belief that riches are gonna make them happy. And I think that when I am in my Christ consciousness, when I really hold the true teachings of Jesus in my heart, I can't harm you. Because like you said, it you know, it's a presence. And I know that you also are a reflection of that divine essence.
Purna Devi:So it's much harder for me to harm you when I can see the God in you. And I could go on and on and on. I know I'm rambling a bit now, but, oh, I just feel that spirit. I I the beatitudes. That's the way for me.
Purna Devi:And I'm not, you know, I'm not versed in the bible. So, you know, I love coming to these conversations, right, because Jeff and I come from different perspectives. And I love hearing you share some of these gospels in your your former education with all of this. But the but the attitudes, if you don't know them, oh, commit them to heart. They are so important to me.
Joe Dermody:Thank you for sharing that too because that's something that I'm not really up on and bringing that up. Looking at them now, yeah, it's something I'm gonna look into more too.
Purna Devi:Beautiful. And to see them from a a non Christian lens. Right? Because a lot of them are taken really literal, and I think it's nice to study them through a heart centered lens.
Joe Dermody:Mhmm. Well, and I I also did a search while prepping for some of this too. And, you know, the ones that came up for me were, you know, the love, compassion, forgiveness, humility, mercy, and grace, courage, wisdom, inclusion, and peace. And all of those mean so much to me now. And the biggest, of course, for me is is is love.
Joe Dermody:It's just it's so important, especially now in this day and age, but specifically for me too. So I'll I'll keep that one nice and short and and nice and easy for me. I'm gonna say love.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, the qualities, you know, Jesus embodied spirit. He was the manifestation of the of the god spark, and and the nature of spirit is love, joy, peace, long suffering or patience, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance or self control, and he embodied those characteristics. Those are the characteristics that we when we show those outwardly, and we align our physical presence with those spiritual characteristics, that is when you have embodied the Christ. Those are the characteristics of the Christ, which is the God essence, the God spark. He calls us sons and daughters because we so here's another interesting concept.
Jeffrey Aylor:There's there's a principle called pantheism. Pantheism says that everything is God. In other words, if I look at a tree, that tree is God. Well, I'm not a pantheist. I'm a panand theist.
Jeffrey Aylor:It is different. A panand theist says that God is in the tree, but God is greater than the tree. God is in you, but God is greater than you, and Jesus even said that my father is greater than I am, but I I can do nothing without him because he works through me, And and Jesus showed us. You know, when I look at his life, he would have been judged by society today as a great failure. When in reality, he was a significant success.
Jeffrey Aylor:I mean, look at the look at the multitude of people all throughout the world, not just Christian people, but all throughout the world that his life is touched and has blessed and has has brought, you know, great Comfort and awakening to them. So you know, but to me his. His greatest asset was. His ability to influence without having to be in a position of authority. In fact, when they tried to elevate him, he would say no, no.
Jeffrey Aylor:And that is a true leader. When we talk about leadership, a true leader, somebody who can influence without necessarily having a specific title or position of authority. They're influencing strictly by their presence, and his presence was so powerful. And in fact, there were there were when he would be speaking in the Bible would talk about how people would say no man spoke like this man. Even his very words when he would talk.
Jeffrey Aylor:Had power in a way that it meant more than if someone else were saying that same thing. It just there was a certain power about it. There was just a certain energy that he exhibited through his being, and I don't know. Find that to be. Something I try to to emulate in a way that, you know, I just want my presence to be love and joy and peaceful, and I want it to be I want it to be something that people people want to gravitate to you.
Jeffrey Aylor:Right? But you don't have to be in a a specific role or in a specific you don't have a specific title. So, anyway, those are the qualities that really speak to me, and I and I do love Jesus, and I think of Jesus all the time, but what I don't do is I don't worship him. I don't worship him, and that that's where I think we get into the significant conflict with our Christian brothers and sisters is that they they outsource their responsibility to become divine, and they don't take on the responsibility that he's telling them that they should to be divine because ye are gods. I do believe Jesus was god, but god with a little g.
Jeffrey Aylor:But guess what? I think you are god with a little g. Okay? So big difference in in that regard. So, Obviously, we can go on and on with all these topics in such a way, but I want to touch now on the the consciousness.
Jeffrey Aylor:And when I say consciousness, the awareness there's there's a deep awareness of unity, right? So throughout the Gospels. Jesus continually. Would move towards those people in society that society had pushed away. He would go to the people that other people said you shouldn't be associating with them.
Jeffrey Aylor:You should not be congregating with them. You should not be eating with them. They're unclean. They're they're they're not worthy. And his ministry consistently crossed that boundary of status and ethnicity and gender and social position and standing.
Jeffrey Aylor:And and, you know, I think of of how. Oh my gosh. I think of of of his love and his reverence for Mary Magdalene and and how they've done everything in society they can to destroy her character and her personality. And and you think of the Ethiopian eunuch and you think of a number of characters that that there are just so many that people would cast out. But he revealed that love refused to be limited.
Jeffrey Aylor:It was not to be limited by separation. So based on that, what do you think Jesus was teaching us about unity and the way that he treated people?
Purna Devi:What was, you know, one of his most famous or most repeated sentences. Right? Love love others as I love you. And so, again, if he is an avatar of divine love, then again, it's, you know, it's void of judgment. It's void of of difference.
Purna Devi:He was the embodiment of unification. There is a purity. It makes me think of the yamas in yoga. Right? I I I joke and I've heard this many times that the yogic yamas and niyamas are akin to, like, the 10 commandments, so to speak.
Purna Devi:And so the yamas are yoga's the precepts. Right? The the nature of being. And so it's ahimsa, compassion, nonviolence, mercy. Satya, Satya is truthfulness.
Purna Devi:Right? Righteousness, integrity, truth telling. Saucha, purity. Purity of heart. Right?
Purna Devi:Not not eating, you know, with those who are aren't clean, but having a purity of heart to not judge those. Ishvada pranidhana, surrender to the divine will. Again, get your ego out of the way. Right? And he was an example of this pure consciousness channeling through.
Purna Devi:That's why he could orate. He was a mystic. Right? And and and dharma. Right?
Purna Devi:Living in alignment with truth and purpose and and doing it in action. Right? A lot of these philosophies speak to three components of the human experience, thought, word, and deed. And it's when those three things that are in alignment, right, that they say the divine consciousness flows through you unencumbered. And so for me, Jesus as a being, as a as an avatar or some folks, you know, see him as a human, Right?
Purna Devi:That was just so pure. His thought and his word and his deed flowed like a river of spiritual consciousness unencumbered, and it didn't matter who it was. And and so that for me really, you know, that was his embodiment. And I, you know, I volunteer. I have over many years with the house of bread.
Purna Devi:These are the forgotten folks in our community. So shout out to house of bread in Dayton, Ohio. They feed those underserved folks. Right? The immigrant folks, the non English speaking folks, the elderly, the poor communities, the addicted communities, the mental health that don't have support, and then turn toward drug communities.
Purna Devi:Right? And they provide a warm meal 365 a year. And I'll tell you, it's conversations with those folks. I would rather have a conversation with them than many a rich man any day. They understand life.
Purna Devi:And those are the ones that are the most giving. Right? We we see that. Right? It's, I mean, it's a it's a thing.
Purna Devi:Right? Those who have more tend to give less. It's those who know what suffering is like that give more. And so it's the, you know, those communities that make me that remind me of how Jesus moved.
Joe Dermody:And and I think that's another reason too that Jesus did what he did. It was to go out to those people that needed it most. He went out and went to the people I mean, the people that had the most actually, I think the people that had the most probably needed it more, but they they they didn't think they did. But he went to the people that were underserved. He went to the people that that probably had the most spiritually but needed the most physically, needed his his love, and that's where he went.
Joe Dermody:And and by by going there, showed that they were included, and and I don't know. I just there's stories all over the world, you know, currently where that happens. And I I I don't know. I just I think that's beautiful right now. And it's amazing how you can do the same just by by being there, by showing it, and the little things mean so much.
Joe Dermody:And then when you stop to talk and just give a little bit of yourself and how little it actually takes, how much it can help the person and yourself, And then you find the examples in the bible. You find the examples in history, and it it's a beautiful thing. So I I I I am not gonna get into everything, but, yeah, it's a beautiful thing, and I think that it's I I it just shows when you do something small like that, even talking with them, with people that need the help, and they can be anybody, that it shows how unified we really are. And you you'll you'll feel it.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, one thing about Jesus is he was not a hypocrite.
Joe Dermody:Not at all.
Jeffrey Aylor:He he outwardly manifested the Christ, so I think that's something that's really critical for us to recognize. In fact, this is why I think he so openly called out a certain group of people, the scribes, the pharisees that he called and said, you hypocrites. You you say one thing, but you do another. You claim to love, but you don't demonstrate love. You claim to be this, but you're not.
Jeffrey Aylor:And that's why he told people do what they say because the law that they that they teach is not bad, but they don't live according to the law. So don't do what they do. Do what they say in that essence. Right? You know, he he outwardly manifested and gave of himself the love that was within him because he recognized that exact same love in them, and he realized that everything he gave, he was receiving back in exponentially, and he he treated people the way he wanted to be treated.
Jeffrey Aylor:He lived the golden rule. He he exhibited it and gave us examples of of the compassion and the love and the forgiveness and the mercy that he felt within himself. So, again, this is why he's such a beautiful example, and and and and it's agnostic when it comes to your foundational belief. These these principles are just that. They're principles regardless of your your background, your tradition, or the culture that you come from.
Jeffrey Aylor:And I think that's what I love so much about this is that he embodies principles. That's really, you know, his teaching of connectivity. He realized that we were all one, and if I treat you a certain way, I'm treating myself that same way. So he had an an inside out approach. He was living the hermetic principle as above, so below.
Jeffrey Aylor:As within, so without. And to me, he he is a wonderful example of the way we should behave. He he said, I am the way, the truth, and the life. I'm giving you the example. That's what I came here to be and to do for you, and he did it through how he exhibited.
Jeffrey Aylor:He treated people. That's why the scriptures are so powerful because they give us great example of how we are to live and and and not be hypocritical and to not be hypocritical. I think that's very important. So
Purna Devi:To speak to that, I wanna I wanna, comment on that. Something brilliant that Gandhi said, I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Yeah. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
Jeffrey Aylor:The hypocrite is hypocrisy, and I think that's what that's what people are unfortunately, that's what is awakening within many people, and it's causing this deconstruction of Christianity today as we know it, and it is. I can tell you. I know people that are leaders among Christian faith that are suffering significantly. They see and they feel the that the people are pulling away from them because there is a significant they they are not behaving like the Christ that they claim to worship and believe in. And that hypocrisy is the greatest thing that is pulling them away.
Jeffrey Aylor:So and the concept of exclusivity, that is the opposite of unity. Exclusivity is the opposite of unity, and to openly talk about that as though it's a positive thing that just in a conversation with one of my sisters, are you? Do you hear what you just said? Jesus was exclusive. No, no, Jesus was not exclusive.
Jeffrey Aylor:He was not exclusive. You're exclusive, and many people are forming a Jesus in their own image. Right? They're forming a Jesus that's in their image, not the image that he truly portrayed in my mind. So so the the Christ consciousness, you know, this is a term that a lot of people resist.
Jeffrey Aylor:They struggle with the concept of it. But what does that mean to you? Christ consciousness.
Purna Devi:It means living from my own sacred heart. Right? Christ consciousness, again, means living from not from the ego, not from fear, not from separation, not from judgment. Christ consciousness means I can peel back those layers. And I mentioned earlier, be still and know that I am God.
Purna Devi:Right? So, you know, a lot of folks pray to God or to Christ or to Jesus or whatever whatever higher power they believe in when things are going bad. Right? And they say you meditate so you can hear. It's a conversation.
Purna Devi:And my old yoga studio is called Soham. Soham is a Sanskrit mantra. Very easy. Right? So if you're looking for a meditative practice to help you help you get closer to your Christ consciousness or remember or unveil beyond ego and fear and judgment and separation on all of these distractions.
Purna Devi:So The inhale says so. The exhale says That helps you at your cellular being. Every part of you vibrate in the essence of I am that I am.
Jeffrey Aylor:Absolutely.
Purna Devi:Absolutely. Right? I am that. I am that consciousness. I am that divine integrity.
Purna Devi:I am that purity.
Jeffrey Aylor:But, you know, Pornad, as I do, most people believe the I am statement, you know, that that that that's the name of God.
Purna Devi:Right. Exactly.
Jeffrey Aylor:And for you to claim to be the I am is, you know, to them, that is when in reality, that's exactly what we're taught. We are the I am.
Purna Devi:It was Matthew. Right? It was in Matthew that said, be still and know that I am God.
Jeffrey Aylor:Be still.
Purna Devi:So so many people can, translate that as be still and know that he is God outside.
Joe Dermody:Right.
Purna Devi:Yes. And also be still and know that I am. I possess Christ consciousness. I am a reflection of this Christ consciousness. Again, a spiritual being having this human illusion, this human experience that gets so confused in its egoic Maya, right?
Purna Devi:That Sanskrit word, Maya, the veil of illusion of personality consciousness. Right? So then the I am, whatever you put after I am begins to create an identity of self that separates us from the divine consciousness, from the Christ consciousness we possess. Right? So that's where that, you know, I am statement.
Purna Devi:I am. Right? Like you said, Tatvam Asi. Right? Thou art that.
Jeffrey Aylor:Those are statements of creation. We are creators. God is creative. We are creators, and every time we make those statements, whether it's a positive statement or a negative, we are creating that image.
Purna Devi:Absolutely. Absolutely.
Jeffrey Aylor:It's so powerful. I want to hear people say, I am God. In fact, was listening to a podcast this morning that the whole concept was is people have forgotten that they are God. Jesus said, ye are gods. Don't your scriptures teach you that?
Jeffrey Aylor:Ye are gods. It's in the Psalms, folks. Come on. And I'm living that. I'm showing you that.
Purna Devi:But I'm much harder to control, right, when I am in my Christ consciousness, and I remember my divine essence and my unencumbered power, right, and my birthright of divinity. So if you tell me that it's only outside of me, that it's something I'll never attain, that I've been born in sin, that I am right? I I'm I'm negative to begin with. My birthright is actually negativity.
Jeffrey Aylor:Right.
Purna Devi:Oh my gosh. Now all of a sudden, I'm so much easier to manipulate, to control. I'm powerless. I'm helpless. Help me.
Purna Devi:Right?
Jeffrey Aylor:Yeah. That you know, those are psychological. They call it psyops today. That's the the current term, and it's used through in in so many different ways. But among religion, that they they psychologically created this idea that we are separate.
Jeffrey Aylor:We are separate. Right? We are not worthy. We are not able, and that and and we so when we believe that, that's what we create. That's exactly what we create.
Jeffrey Aylor:Now I have to stop a second here because I think we would be a bit remiss not to touch on this, and it's the the the way Jesus is presented, we have to understand the the the source of the scriptures and that the scriptures the New Testament specifically was written hundreds of years after his life, and what has been put into what we call the Christian Bible isn't all of the things that were written. In fact, John made the comment that that you they couldn't contain the books that were written, but we have to also recognize what was the purpose that in that time the Roman Catholic church had for doing this and creating this religion and the scriptures, and it's so interesting. There was, in in the the Summer Olympics this last couple years, the the opening ceremony, they did a a a scene, and it was the scene of Dionysus, the Greek god Dionysus, and it looked a lot like the Last Supper. Well, which came first? Dionysus and that feast, or was it the Last Supper?
Jeffrey Aylor:Or maybe the Last Supper is patterned after that Dionysus scene. You had the the so you had the Greek god Dionysus, and you had the Roman god Mithras. And if you look at the characteristics of these two gods, they look and have a lot of this Jesus has a lot of those same characteristics in the Christian scriptures. Well, what was the purpose of creating that Bible? Well, it was to unite the kingdom.
Jeffrey Aylor:It was to unite the empire. They had to to to to unite those that were worshiping the Greek god Dionysus and those that are worshiping the Roman god Mithras into this Christianity that just came about, and they picked Jesus to be all of it. And they patterned the stories so that the people who were worshiping this god and that god could follow this one because he looked and acted and sounded and and did an awful lot of the same things. In fact, there's a really great article. You can find it out on the Internet by Martin Luther King Junior wrote this as part of his doctoral work, and it is a comparison of the Roman god Mithras and Jesus.
Jeffrey Aylor:And and why and how did they look and seem virgin birth, Death and resurrection, crucifixion on a cross. All those prints, all those images that we see in Jesus were were already existed in either Dionysus or Mithras. These gods of the of the Empire. And so you've got to be really careful too how you interpret Jesus, because you've got to realize that the image of Jesus was played with in a lot of different ways by the by the church at that time for the purpose of uniting an empire that was divided because of religion and because of these beliefs. So, you know, what what was consistent, though, were the principles.
Jeffrey Aylor:This is why I love principles because they don't change. They're unchangeable. If I'm going to build a foundation, I'm going to build it on principle, not on myth. Right? So let's jump into this next set of questions because we can definitely go on and on and on about that one.
Jeffrey Aylor:So how I want to talk about seeing Christ in others, because I do think this is what really different or differentiated Jesus from many of the people in his day is the way that he saw other people. So one of Jesus' most challenging teachings is found in Matthew 25. He said, whatever you did for one of the least of these my brethren, you did it unto me. You did it to me. When you do it to them, you're doing it to me.
Jeffrey Aylor:What's that mean? So it it invites us to see Christ where we might not otherwise see Christ. So in that, what changes when we begin to look for the image of God or the Christ in every single person?
Purna Devi:You know, I immediately had the vision of the panhandler, the drug addict slumped on the street, and people are just walking over him. Right? Again, the the forgotten, those darling humans that are so underserved that fall through the cracks. Oh, and it makes me emotional because again, you know, I think that we discard, you know, look what we're doing in Palestine right now and in Sudan and The Congo. Right?
Purna Devi:There are places across the world that were committing atrocities and, you know, fun historical fact, where was Jesus born? Right? Historically, it was the West Bank. Come on. You know?
Purna Devi:And I'm not trying to to get all political, but it is political because we see these systems who are not, you know, utilizing that principle, and claim to be Christian empire still founded on these Christian beliefs. But like you said, there's so much hypocrisy because if I recognized the Christ consciousness in you, I've said it, you know, multiple times throughout this podcast, then it's so much harder for me to harm you and discard you and negate your existence. Again, there's this beautiful term we use, the birthright. You have certain birthrights, right? Inalienable rights, they say in some constitution or, what was it?
Purna Devi:The declaration of independence maybe that that we have these birthrights of dignity, of respect, of basic fundamental needs being met, but we don't see that across our communities or our globe. We just don't. And so if we did embody the principle of unity, of dignity, right, of taking care of the children and the women and taking care of those underserved, I think it would be an entirely different world we're looking at. And, you know, it's that truth is really, you know, rooted in how I show up in service to humanity. I have to believe in good faith.
Purna Devi:Right? That that we are doing good and that we can change. I know I have changed. I know I've seen a lot of people change. And I think that the more we embody that reality of of unity without division, without judgment, without walking over the panhandler, you know, or just tossing him a, you know, a dollar and then taking a selfie with him and posting it on Facebook.
Purna Devi:Right? We see that so much.
Jeffrey Aylor:They have their reward. That's
Purna Devi:just Yeah. Right? And so so so loving and serving and being, unattached to the fruit of the labor and just giving of a pure heart. Right? These are the qualities I I seek to continue to embody, as I grow and learn.
Purna Devi:Right? Because if I'm causing harm to another, like you said, if I'm doing unto someone that's causing them harm, right, I'm harming that that Christ consciousness. And so to remember that Christ consciousness really helps me harm less myself and others.
Joe Dermody:So so saying that, you know, thinking about how, you know, we say how how can somebody just walk over somebody like that and not even see them, but think about how many people just, you know, here don't get enough sleep. They sit too much. They eat poorly. They have lack of physical activity, chronic stress without recovery. Right?
Joe Dermody:Excessive screen time, tobacco use, and alcohol consumption to an excess. Right? So they have all these things that are that are doing so much personal damage. And then if they're doing all that stuff to themselves, then it's not a wonder how they are not seeing, you know, the suffering of others. So I think that it's it's we're all connected.
Joe Dermody:We are all one. So if they're not taking care of themselves, it's no wonder that they're not gonna stop to take care of others. And I think that we're all connected. So the more people will start to realize that they will start taking care of themselves, which then in turn will help them to start seeing that, oh, if I can take care of myself, I can also then my cup becomes fuller. I can start giving more of that to others, not even realizing that by helping others, that will also help to fill their cup.
Joe Dermody:And and it's a it's an endless cycle that way.
Jeffrey Aylor:So Well, the scriptures are full of you know, we are to care for the fatherless and the widows. We are to care for those that are hungry. Again, there we there's more than enough to feed the world. There is no excuse. There is no excuse for anyone to be starving or hungry.
Joe Dermody:Physically or spiritually.
Jeffrey Aylor:In any any if for any reason, we have to be judging and ranking and categorizing people in a way that says this one is worthy. This one is not worthy. This one deserves it. This one does not deserve it. And so that means everything then is conditional.
Jeffrey Aylor:It's not unconditional. This is gonna lead us into, again, our next season where we talk about love, but not just love. We talk about unconditional love. It's not to be conditioned. Jesus did not do things based on conditions.
Jeffrey Aylor:He did it based on the understanding and the belief that every person he'd contacted, everything he everyone he touched was of divine nature and equal. And if and if I do something mean to you, it's because I hate myself. You're projecting your own internal issues outwardly on other people as within, so without. So if I see bad behavior being exhibited outwardly, what that's telling me is that there is there is a hatred and a and an issue inwardly. Now should I look at that person with anger, or should I look at them with compassion and and pray and hope for their healing?
Jeffrey Aylor:Because that's what will cause that to change in them. That's not easy. That's not easy to do because we're we're so blinded by our eyes. We're so deafened by our ears. That's why he says, hearing, they do not hear.
Jeffrey Aylor:Seeing, they do not see, and they do not understand. We are deceived by our eyes. We are deceived by our ears. Those things now have such profound meaning to me. I've taught those for years, and I have goosebumps right now thinking about it because of the depth and perspective that I've I'm I'm able to see it from now.
Jeffrey Aylor:I love reading scripture because it means more to me now. Anyone who thinks that my awakening has pulled me away from scripture or from Jesus or from it it they're wrong. They don't understand. They just don't understand the the depth that it provides and the depth that it gives. So how do we how do we get then into this position of living?
Jeffrey Aylor:We have to get to where we're living the mind of Christ. You know, the apostle Paul, and they call him I don't really believe personally Paul was an apostle. I think he he proclaimed himself to be an apostle, but I do think he had a legitimate experience. And in his writings, he says, let this mind be in you, which also is in Christ Jesus. This invitation for us to have and admire the Christ that was in Jesus and that we also have that same Christ that we should be exhibiting.
Jeffrey Aylor:What does humility really look like in everyday life, and how how do forgiveness and compassion become actual outward expressions and manifestations of the Christ within us?
Purna Devi:I work with forgiveness a lot with clients, and it's something that I have worked personally, right, with myself. And I think to forgive and to exhibit compassion outwardly, you you touched on it, and we've been touching on it. I must first learn to forgive myself and find compassion to myself. Again, I cannot give you tea if I have no tea. And so forgiving myself for all the versions of me that did harm myself and did harm others in my disconnection to my divinity, in my dish disconnection to your divinity, in my ego, in my lack of humility, right?
Purna Devi:And my overinflated sense of self and personality consciousness that really confused my eyes and my ears and allowed me to project things or to, you know, I don't want to gaslight ourselves either, or I was living from a place of suffering from the wounded inner child. You know, one of the most profound experiences I've had in my healing is also to see God as the divine mother. You know, I have a really difficult relationship with my own parents and with my own mother. And for many times I was the victim and and I I really harbored a lot of anger and and victimization. And now I see them also as the wounded inner child and the one disconnected from their own consciousness.
Purna Devi:But forgiveness for me was a side effect of of reconnecting with those parts of me that were so wounded and acting out that allowed me to forget the divine consciousness within me and in others. And so allowing myself to soften like the little lamb, like the child, that sweet pure child that was harmed, that was hurt, allowing her to be held in the lap of the divine mother, the goddess, and and to be healed by the divine father. Right? And be brought up by by these elements of Christ consciousness that allowed me to forgive the you know, what do they say? Right?
Purna Devi:Love your enemies. Love your neighbor. Right? Forgive. Those are the most difficult qualities, I think, to possess.
Purna Devi:You know? That's why we're talking about them today because it's not easy. And I spent many, many years as the victim. And I'm not saying I wasn't victimized, but then to be able to look at those who have caused you suffering is also wounded little children. And that's a tikknoton teaching.
Purna Devi:Right? They say, you know, first, you reconcile with your own wounded inner child, and then you see the one who's caused you harm, and you you see their wounded inner child.
Jeffrey Aylor:It allows you to become compassionate.
Purna Devi:It really does. Right? Because we're all just babies learning to crawl here. Right? Ram Dass said we're all just walking each other home, and we stumble.
Purna Devi:And we unfortunately work our karmas out in collective, don't we, in relationship to one another. And so I think it's an ongoing practice and it's not an easy one.
Jeffrey Aylor:Multiple lifetimes even.
Purna Devi:Absolutely. You know, we come down the slide of forgetfulness for a reason because imagine, I can think of all the things you've done to me even in this lifetime.
Jeffrey Aylor:Right.
Purna Devi:Gosh. Can you imagine if I carry the baggage from 10 lifetimes ago? Ugh. We'd never find unity. Never.
Purna Devi:Never. Thank goodness we forget.
Joe Dermody:I was looking, as I was prepping for this, one of the best things that I found here defining humility. Humility is not thinking less of yourself. It is thinking of yourself less. And I I I love that. And I I think that really comes down again to ego.
Joe Dermody:Right? Let let go of your ego, and it's not helping anything in this. And that's I think that's the the thing I wanna add and kinda just ditto everything that Pernod just said there. So
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, I think we have to be careful too that there is a false humility that people will Yes. Betray. A lot of times, oh, you know, I don't worry about myself, and I could just do for others. And, well, okay, how how is it you keep doing for others if you don't do for yourself and fill your cup back up? I understand what you're trying to say, and I understand that you're trying to exhibit humility, but that's not really humility.
Jeffrey Aylor:It's because you have to fill your cup. Again, if if God is God and God in me is God and God in you is God, then we're all God. We're all just God. It if I and if I can't love myself, I don't love God. And if I don't love God, I can't love myself.
Jeffrey Aylor:And if I can't love my I can't love you because we're all one essence. We're all the same essence. It's and as much as I appreciate some of the the humble sayings that a lot of people will put out there, the fact is is that it's not really humility in the true sense. You know, I I also think. You can't forgive.
Jeffrey Aylor:It's not only can you not love others if you don't love yourself, you can't forgive others if you can't forgive yourself. And when you find people who can't forgive, that tells me there's a significant amount within themselves that they're not forgiving. Because, again, they're manifesting outwardly what they're experiencing inwardly. That's why the hermetic principle of is is so critical to understand. Jesus understood those principles.
Jeffrey Aylor:He taught them and lived them. And so his expression of the Christ this is where, again, I get back to Jesus was the perfect manifestation of a life, human life that was demonstrating the Christ that is in all of us, and that makes him so much more important and so much more valuable to me and to everybody. I think that it then this god that I can't touch, the god I can't be, the god that is so separate and distant from me that it's not even realistic to even think, quite honestly, about the idea of being like them. So let's let's touch on this last concept of unity beyond division because, you know, the life of Jesus continually challenged walls that were separating people. And if Christ is truly present in and among all of us, how are we invited to become bridge builders, not separators?
Jeffrey Aylor:We're to be bridge builders, spanners. Right? So how can followers of the Christ, the god spark, the essence, how can we become known more for love than division? How is it that it gives us hope for the future? Right?
Jeffrey Aylor:Even if the church and for the church that it can become something bigger and better than what it's devolved into.
Purna Devi:You know, I think extremists on other on any side really show that divisive nature quite well. And Rumi said out between the ideas of right doing and wrong doing, there is a field, and I'll meet you there. And so getting out of our echo chambers, you know, exploring diversity and unity, going out into communities that don't look like you. You know, I have a friend, James, who is really philanthropic and committed to, rehabbing the North Side Of Dayton and cleaning up and helping the, you know, the homeowners there that are living in slums. And, you know, there's, you know, heroin needles on the street and clean just cleaning up, getting into these places.
Purna Devi:Right? And and getting your hands dirty. And, again, sitting with others and learning from others that aren't like you. And I think Jesus was a karma yogi. He was of selfless service.
Purna Devi:Right? Like the mother Teresa's and, you know, those, who see the need. And like Joe said earlier, we become so filled up with the gifts that we have to give it away. Now, if I'm overflowing with tea, I can give you tea. So what can we do?
Purna Devi:First, we we work on purifying our own system. Right? We sit in stillness. We connect with the divine. We have our daily rituals that help us forgive ourselves and all of these wonderful things we've been talking about.
Purna Devi:Help me love my true divine nature even more. Then I'm surrounded by community that is diverse, that is eclectic, that is free to speak their truth without fear of, you know, persecution. And then we go out and we serve. We serve the underserved. We serve the needy.
Purna Devi:Right?
Joe Dermody:I think start by listening to this podcast.
Purna Devi:Hey. Shout out to us. Let me feed my ego and not be humble for a second. This is a great Well
Joe Dermody:and well and and and the other podcasts that are in here. Right?
Purna Devi:Yeah.
Joe Dermody:Start start by thinking back on go back to the core teachings of Jesus. Right? Go back to love, compassion, forgiveness, humility, mercy and grace, courage, wisdom, inclusion, peace. Think of Jesus as being part of you and not as somebody that an organization made him out to be. Think of him as as a part of you.
Joe Dermody:Think think of you as being part of everybody. And when you see somebody that needs help, help. Do your part. But then also start taking care of yourself. Because, again, just like Perna said too, you have to fill your cup.
Joe Dermody:Fill your cup. And when your cup is full, pour some out. So it's it's what we've been saying this whole season, and I I think that's that's what you can do. And that's what gives me hope because we are all capable. Every single one of us is capable.
Joe Dermody:And I think just learning that you don't have to be special. We are all special. You don't have to be more special to do this. Every one of us is capable.
Jeffrey Aylor:I believe we are we are the second coming.
Joe Dermody:Absolutely. Every single one
Jeffrey Aylor:of us. Yes. There are those who think the second coming is the return of Jesus to Earth as the Christ when in reality what Jesus was teaching is the second coming is the return of all of us to this understanding and exhibiting this nature collectively. The second coming is not the coming of one person. The second coming is this awakening that we're talking about, and it is the coming of all mankind to the understanding that we are divine.
Jeffrey Aylor:That we are divine. Now that is second coming of Christ. So it's wonderful because Joel talked about last week, I believe, our podcast Paramahansa Yogananda wrote an entire he wrote an entire, book that that was a, a commentary on the New Testament and Jesus. Here he had a Hindu yogi writing these things, and he at the essence, in fact, the book is called the second coming of Christ, and he teaches in that, and I agree with him. The second coming is not the coming back of Jesus.
Jeffrey Aylor:The second coming is coming to the understanding and consciousness and awareness, awakening to the fact that we are all the Christ and that we exhibit them. We start to exhibit that outwardly collectively. That is what this world is getting ready to go through. The second coming of Christ, the the awakening to the inner divinity that is within every one of us, and the living of that no longer covered by a veil. The veil is thinning.
Jeffrey Aylor:It's gonna take time, but the veil is thinning, and I and I I'm confident that is why the universe decided to drop this into my head and heart when it did. That that's what we're that's what we're here to do collectively. That's why we're here in this incarnation is to help with that, and that's what I believe the second coming of Christ is. It is the the awakening, the great awakening that is coming to this Earth that that Jesus even pointed to it in in in very clear ways. It's just been a great conversation.
Jeffrey Aylor:There are just so many additional things that we can touch on, and I always like leaving a conversation like this open. I don't ever we're never gonna get anything to a conclusion. So based on that, as we do bring this to a close, maybe it's important for us to you know, maybe maybe the invitation of Christ is not only to believe certain truths, but maybe to become a people through whom love becomes visible, to forgive, to serve, to welcome, to heal, to recognize the image and spark of God in every person, and not just every person, but every living creature and being. So Purna, Joel, thank you so very much again for this great conversation. To everybody that's listening, you know, we hope that this touches you, that we can continue to grow into that mind of Christ, that Christ consciousness, and that we're able to all better see with compassion and love without condition.
Jeffrey Aylor:And remember that every act of genuine love is revealing a little more heaven on earth, and with that, the space between continues. As we come to a close, remember that this journey continues in many expressions. This podcast is part of a family of partner podcasts. Awakening heaven on earth. The Space Between Heaven and Earth and Living Heaven on Earth are three companion podcasts exploring spiritual awakening from complementary perspectives.
Jeffrey Aylor:Awakening heaven on earth offers the core teachings and mystical reflections on unity, love, and conscious living. The space between creates room for dialogue, reflection, and lived conversation around those teachings. Living heaven on earth focuses on basic spiritual practices that help embody these insights in daily life. Together, they form a unified journey of understanding, experience, and integration. Inviting listeners to remember their connection with the divine, with one another, and with the living world.
Jeffrey Aylor:You can find all of them available on the same podcast streaming platforms wherever you listen. And if music helps carry these teachings deeper into the heart, The Unity. Awakening Heaven on Earth album is available on all major music streaming services as a musical companion to this journey. Wherever you engage through listening, reflection, conversation, or music. May it gently remind you, you are not separate.
Jeffrey Aylor:You belong to the one life and heaven is already unfolding within you. Until next time. Walk gently, love deeply, and embody heaven on earth.