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Office Talk UK is a fortnightly podcast hosted by Dave Sharp, and a great excuse for him to have conversations with leading UK architects about their approach to business, marketing, communications and brand strategy.
Office Talk has been shortlisted for the 2023 ArchiTeam Awards for Innovation & Contribution to Architecture, and the 2022 Archiboo Awards for Best Podcast.
Welcome to Office Talk, a fortnightly podcast featuring in-depth conversations with leading architects about their approach to business marketing and communications. I'm your host, Dave Sharp, an architectural marketing expert and director of Office Dave Sharp, a marketing practice offering specialized consultancy, marketing, and PR services tailored to meet the particular needs of architects. Visit office dave sharp.com to learn more, or follow the practice on Instagram at officedavesharp. Joining me on the show today are Matt Loder and Ian Monteith, the directors of Loder Monteith, a Glasgow based practice known for their approach to meaningful, local and sustainable architecture. In this episode, Matt, Ian, and I discussed the challenges of managing clients, project scopes, and costs in the early days of starting their practice, and how saying no to work that didn't align with their vision was just as important as saying yes.
Dave Sharp:We talked about how every small project is an opportunity that can lead to larger work in the future, but why it's also important to make sure smaller project budgets aren't spread thin for the sake of more floor area. We discussed the 3 guiding principles they judge a potential project against to see whether or not it's a good fit for their practice, values, and long term vision. We looked at how they've approached their gradual shift from private residential work towards public and community projects, and what adjustments they've made to their site portfolio and practice messaging to support the transition. And finally, we looked at their approach to timing project photoshoots to ensure that the building has fully settled into place, and how shooting projects in the winter, which many architects avoid, has led to unexpected PR benefits for the practice. So I hope you enjoy my conversation with Matt Loder and Ian Monteith from Loder Monteith.
Dave Sharp:Ian and Matt, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Iain Monteith:You're very welcome. Nice to nice to be here, Dave.
Matt Loader:Thanks for inviting us. Yeah.
Dave Sharp:Oh, it's an absolute pleasure. Let's start off. How did you guys meet? How did this practice come together? Give us give us the backstory.
Matt Loader:We met at a a Glasgow practice, called Elder and Cannon, who, I guess are reasonably well known within Glasgow, but not really beyond because they don't like talking about what they do at all. So that was in 2,008, 2,009, something like that, and then the credit crunch happened and so, the world fell apart. And, I think personal circumstances also took over a little bit at that at that point, so we went our separate ways for a period of time.
Iain Monteith:As Matt says, we kind of went off, had some children, got married, and then we hatched a kind of plan to start the business, kind of 2016.
Dave Sharp:I think 2016 was like a really good year for Architecture Studios. I started my business in 2016. I feel like a lot of practices started around then.
Iain Monteith:Yeah. I think maybe the recession, you know, there's probably enough time after 2,008 had gone by. And and and I think the approach to architecture changed after that because up until then, it was really quite, you know, it was a lot big projects going, a lot of finance about. And when that fell away, it kinda opened the door for a lot of grassroots architecture and a lot of people trying, you know, to start things from from nothing, from scratch. And I think that's really what you see.
Iain Monteith:And then, yeah, from 2016, even we've noticed since then, a bit of an explosion in terms of young practices coming through and people having a go.
Dave Sharp:And so the practice you guys were working previously, what sort of scale of work were you doing typically? It was sort of larger stuff a lot, wasn't it? Or what were you guys working on?
Matt Loader:Yeah. So we did, quite a lot of housing association work. There was a section of the office as well that did a lot of conservation work, which was the part of the office that I think I worked in. For all, we worked in the same place and sat next to one another, basically being rude to one another for several years. We actually didn't work on the same projects at the same time, so I had a kind of a conservation lean towards my work and and Ian had a a different lead.
Iain Monteith:Yeah. Main mainly social housing and but and specific health care social housing. So for Sense Sense Scotland. So, yeah, end users with specific requirements in terms of how how they live and what they need. So and and mixed with private residential.
Iain Monteith:But in saying that when it started, it was a large master plan, domestic master plan I was working on, but that that failed to fit them to the credit crunch back.
Matt Loader:That was the first one. That was
Iain Monteith:the first one. That was the first one. So, and and then, you know, thereafter that, as I said, there's about there's about a time between, you know, leaving that place and then moving on to the next offices. And our experience can expand it to my experience in health care and large educational, higher educational.
Dave Sharp:And then so transitioning into starting your own practice where typically when you start a small practice, it's gonna often be a lot of private residential stuff. Is that what you guys found initially in the early years? It was, you know, largely gonna be people's houses of people that you knew and
Matt Loader:Yeah. So at the outset, there was a period of time when I'd had my first child and my wife, who's a doctor, was going back to work, that it was just me. My initial intention was to take a month and write a business plan. I had some ideas about how to go about procuring work. And on my last day at work, I had my new email address set up and I sent an email out to, to a mail shop basically to everybody saying, look.
Matt Loader:If for any reason you need me for any anything, you won't get me here anymore, but here's my new email address. And out of that immediately came 3 people saying, brilliant timing. We've got this thing that we want to look at at our house. Can you please come and meet us? So, so there there was immediately no time to write a business plan.
Matt Loader:Yeah. You had a meeting. Yeah. Yeah. You were rolling.
Matt Loader:Yeah. Yeah. That was it. So we're we're up up up and up and up and running on on on day 1. And all of those were kind of small scale domestic interventions.
Matt Loader:And I think there was probably, certainly on my behalf at least, a bit of naivety, that while I had designed housing and, kitchens and bathrooms and all that sort of stuff and knew my way around the building regulations and the planning requirements reasonably well. I think I was a bit naive and probably slightly gung ho about, the difference between dealing with individuals who are spending their money on something, and, and it was quite a steep learning curve at the outset. I think it's probably fair to fair to
Iain Monteith:say. Did you
Dave Sharp:make any big mistakes in client management in those first few?
Matt Loader:Oh, yeah. Yeah. Less. I mean, there's, one which we learned at a at a very early stage, which it was when Ian had come across, and the client said to us, so we want to, extend our house for £30,000, which is not very much money. It wasn't much money then, and it's certainly not much money now.
Matt Loader:And, and they kept saying, you know, we want it bigger. We want it bigger. We want it bigger. And we had fixed our fee against £30,000. And it got to the point that we were like, oh, my God.
Matt Loader:We're gonna have to Two extensions.
Iain Monteith:£200,000. Yeah. Maybe they're not I know an awkward conversation. And they
Dave Sharp:are £3,000. Yeah. So so
Iain Monteith:Exactly. There's that there's that the Rubicon to to get over. But, yeah. So you learn you learn these lessons and
Matt Loader:I think it's it I mean, I mean, we've definitely, the early projects as well are kind of reasonably you kind of have to take what comes. And people have different tastes. They don't necessarily have the same priorities as to, you know, what they want to spend their money on. So it's really difficult how you then make hay out of the projects that actually turn out well when you have a client who has a kind of a shared outlook on in terms of how they want things to look and feel as you do. So I I think actually transitioning away from taking everything to, to to to trying to find clients that actually like the type of work that you want to be working on as well is quite a seminal moment for any young practice as well.
Matt Loader:You know? How yeah. And and that was a that was a a a big thing. It probably didn't happen for a few years after Loadsman Teeth was up and running, but, but we were really lucky with some of the clients that effectively we had cold calls at the outset that we did have some really nice small scale interventions in in in their homes, that we were really proud of. I think the reason of both
Iain Monteith:of the work was residential, private residential at the start off was, you know, because it's quite difficult for a young practice to when they're starting up to win public projects you know. Because so much relies on your experience, improving your experience and having insurance and all all of these parameters that you're trying to develop a business within. And the hope that one day you get that opportunity as your experience develops.
Dave Sharp:Can Can get things rolling a little bit quicker on the residential stuff. Right? If the opportunity would have been there, would have been very happy to move straight into sort of larger scale or public stuff that was closer to what you had been working on. It's just tough as a small practice as you're saying.
Iain Monteith:Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, it remains an issue. You know, there's still when you when we look at competitions or we look at bids and it's, you know, you need to have 3 completed projects in the last 7 years on a particular sector. You know, unless you have have done that, then immediately you're you're kinda out there.
Iain Monteith:So it's it's I always compare it to trying to get into an 8 club when it's regulars only. And when do you when's the first time you get in? You know, how do you become a regular if you don't get in? So
Matt Loader:One of my roles now is that I'm a trustee of the Royal Incorporation of Architects in Scotland, or ES. I kind of understand superficially why, you know, if you've done this type of work before, that that, from a client's point of view, means that you're likely to know the pitfalls and that you are therefore more likely to avoid them than somebody that hasn't been through that before. That being said, I I have seen absolutely no evidence of that at any point. So I think it may well be an imagined risk and not one that actually is backed up by evidence. And it's one of the things that we're trying to encourage Riaz to do at the moment is actually to do that piece of work to justify well, because ultimately, if it is a risk, it then it's it's quantifiable and you can work around it.
Matt Loader:But what at the point at which we are at the moment, which is that it's a risk which is not unreasonably imagined by client groups, that they they aren't prepared to to to take that risk, except that it probably doesn't exist. And there's a really good piece of evidence. There's a very, very famous Irish practice called O'Donnell Toomey. I don't know if you've heard of them. So they have been they have been shortlisted for the Sterling prize, so in the UK, that's the sort of the top architecture award, five times.
Matt Loader:And every time they've been shortlisted for those 5 projects has been the first time designing in that typology. And what that means is they would not have got through that public procurement at any point if those had been publicly procured buildings. So if if that's not evidence that talented architects can move across typologies and scales, I don't know what is.
Dave Sharp:Today's episode of Office Talk is sponsored by Office Dave Sharp. Founded by architecture marketing specialist, Dave Sharp, Office Dave Sharp collaborates exclusively with local and international architectural practices to help them refine their marketing, distill their message, and elevate their brand. Our strategies and solutions provide expert perspective and clarity in the short term, while our process allows you the space to reflect on your goals for your practice in the long term. So consider this your chance to pause, to strike the perfect balance between your business objectives and the integrity of your brand. With a highly structured strategy and positioning process, ongoing guidance, and access to our network of talented and skilled creatives, we'll help to position your practice in a way that's considered, distinctive, and timeless.
Dave Sharp:So to learn more about our process and book a consultation, simply visit officedavesharpe.com. I mean, it might not be project risk. Maybe it's just political risk. Is that research that you might be able to
Matt Loader:of trustee was, effectively so that there was a voice. But I would say that my voice among Riaz is very is very small. But this is a look. Certainly, as long as I've been in Scotland, this has been a recurring theme and a recurring issue. And and there are some much more senior people, that's that also believe that this is an issue.
Matt Loader:That being I mean, for all that that said, we have made it through the the the procurement process successfully a couple of times, which, so it is possible to do. It it it's it's just how you package that up and how you, yeah, how you give people the confidence to use you in spite of your lack of, perhaps, schools that you finished in the last 5 years, for example. And I think we I'm I'm really very proud of having having done that a few times.
Dave Sharp:You were touching on something really good earlier, which was talking about, initially, these clients kind of come from every direction, and it's really on you to kind of try and make every project as good as it can be and squeeze as much potential out of it as you possibly can. I find that lots of practices that come on the podcast have quite a good ability to kind of turn, you know, coal into diamonds in a way where they're not getting that perfect client, but they're still able to put the time into it and to really craft it and to do something that has something really special going on. So I'm always curious to know if there's any particular strategies that that you've identified for kind of really squeezing as much out of these projects as you can. You know?
Iain Monteith:When when we start to go off, we we can say it it it was equally as important to say no to projects as it is to say yes. Because, you know, if if people come to you, they're usually coming to you for a specific purpose, and they've they've seen something that you've done that that they like. And at that point, it's it's perhaps easier to then convince them that actually, yeah, we can do this in this way, and it will, create value or, you know, what you know, cost and value are not the same. And, ultimately, yeah, you can make it a simple box, but, actually, if you introduce elements that create a bit of joy, then intrinsically it has more value and it's more enjoyable over, you know, its life.
Matt Loader:I think one of the other things that definitely we you can see thematically cropping up more and more in our projects now is this idea of reusing materials as well. And so one of our very early projects was a tiny little thing called the collector's home. But as part of that, we ended up reusing an old gym hall floor that went down and various bits and pieces of plasterwork that were included as well. And from that, it turned out really well. That was one of those very early, very nice projects that that that that we were really proud of.
Matt Loader:But it was a tiny budget. It was under £30,000 that that all all the work. But but we we got some really lovely photos of it from Gillian Hayes at DAPL. And that was probably the first project that we had photographed that we were really just about. And we have seen that kind of that idea of trying to ring value by reclaiming and reusing, cropping up again and again.
Matt Loader:Yeah.
Iain Monteith:Yeah. Because I mean, there was no extension involved in that. That was actually about, you know, stripping out a ceiling to increase the volume, and retreating existing roof structure that was there to enhance it and relocating internal doors so that we had with views connecting out to the garden, which, you know, just opened up the house. So it was never really about, you know, how how much can we add physically to this project, but how can we work with what's there and enhance its value in that way. You know?
Iain Monteith:There's a lot of clients that a lot of people that, you know, have an issue with their property think I need more space. I need an extension. I need to add add add when actually it's it's not that. You know, first principle is look at what you've got. Can you make that work harder?
Iain Monteith:Can you make that achieve what you need it to achieve? And only then after that point would you say, right, we need an extension or we need to add, you know.
Matt Loader:It's sort of paradoxical, I suppose, a little bit for architects to walk in and say don't build. But, we found we found ourselves do doing that quite a lot over the years is is is trying to keep the area as sensibly lean as possible and then allowing the money to flow into the finishes of the of the building.
Iain Monteith:Yeah. Yeah. Which is you know, and that that theme is is continued. You know, we we we look into the bigger projects we're working on now in terms of retrofit and conservation, and it's how you know, maybe it's not always about extending, but actually or even demolition in some instances, but actually reusing what's there and enhancing what's there. So these themes start from the smallest extension through to the largest commercial project.
Dave Sharp:Because the alternative of adding a lot of extra space and trying to really optimize for space, but then doing a sort of just lower end or more budget sort of spread thin kind of finish across the whole thing. At the end of the day, that would probably not be so compelling as a project, right, if that's what we're trying to go for. And that's kind of obvious, but I think that the part of it that's complicated is the conversation with the client. You know, when they're coming over their brief, anticipating or needing, thinking their entire reason for doing the project was we just had a 3rd kid or, you know, whatever, and extra space is now the number one priority. Then they walk in the door and you have that conversation of, like, well, actually.
Matt Loader:My experience is that for most private domestic clients, aspiration outstrips budget. That, you know, most most people want more than they can afford, and there's such a, linear relationship between how much something costs and how big it is that you you'd kind of be insane not to get the space that you already have working as hard as possible before coming to the conclusion that you need more of it in that context. You know?
Iain Monteith:That that decision can be made quite quickly when you start talking about saving tens of 1,000 of pounds or 100 of 1,000 of pounds.
Dave Sharp:Starts to get people listening to some stuff, hey, once you start talking about how much maybe knocking off the budget. Yeah. And, I mean, like, being able to sort of break it down into simple terms like that, I think, is a really great way to communicate it. Because I think, like, the idea of, like, less space but better space, people get it, but it still may be a little bit, like, maybe a little abstract for some people.
Matt Loader:And particularly in the those early projects when you don't have examples of it. I think that the more the time has gone on and the more that you can evidence that to people, the easier it becomes in some respects.
Iain Monteith:Yeah. I mean, we did a project this morning, again, on a small project in the West End of Glasgow at Randolph 4. Yeah. And, you know, one of the anxieties that the client had was that they they couldn't see their kids playing on the garden from the kitchen. And that was, you know, a fundamental reason for them to extend the thought.
Iain Monteith:And we kind of said, well, you know, we can achieve that visual connection from the garden to your kitchen and your dining space. You don't need to extend that. We can open it up. And at the end of the project, they were like, that that's achieved everything we wanted. And really, it was, you know, to think we were gonna extend to achieve that when we didn't need to.
Iain Monteith:So they've still got a garden. They didn't have a massive garden, so extending into there would reduced that. So we managed to maintain the size of the garden, managed to reduce their anxiety. They can still be making dinner or cleaning up and see the kids getting up to over there, getting up to the in the garden safely.
Matt Loader:So And the fact that they didn't extend meant that they went and bought a really lovely, quite expensive kitchen and range cooker
Iain Monteith:that
Matt Loader:they wouldn't have been able to if they had spent all that money on that space.
Iain Monteith:And a barbecue, which they would
Matt Loader:have had an
Iain Monteith:old place to put it in place.
Matt Loader:I've still I've still not been invited over. No. No. No.
Iain Monteith:No. No. No. I'm still waiting.
Dave Sharp:It's funny how, from a client standpoint, just having a couple of really smart ways to save money just suddenly is like, I'm it's I'm getting such a great deal here. This all makes sense. You know? I I think it's just so nice to know that we're at least being conservative in a couple of areas. Also, you're talking about the client selection.
Dave Sharp:I think that's an interesting one that comes up often on the podcast, which is about you know, a lot of studios will say quite openly that, you know, they they don't feel like they ever really get to a place where they can truly, like, pick and choose kind of the clients that they work with. And some studios do. Like, they are in that quite amazing position where, you know, they really can be very, very selective. I'm interested in, like, what level of selectivity you kind of feel like you're at as a practice and maybe how you maintain that. But, also, I'm interested in the criteria that you look for in, in a client that you're looking for.
Iain Monteith:You know, we spent a lot time thinking about the website, thinking about the work that we put out there and showcasing what we're about and what we do and making that message as clear as possible so that when people are making a decision in the first instance, they know really what what we're about and how how clear that is. But in terms of project selection, you know, sometimes it's governed by the 8 of us in the practice now. So I actually can we afford to take on that project as it's just too small? Other times, there's there's small projects, but they're super interesting. And, actually, we will take it on, and that's why, you know, we do it.
Iain Monteith:It's maybe not not something we do every week because it's not sustainable, but actually it has merit and it's,
Matt Loader:Yeah. I would say one of the things is that we tend to be there's quite a lot of material variation across a lot of our small scale projects. There's a slight caveat, which is that the pandemic caused a huge increase in material costs, which has meant that we've had quite a lot of projects, going through the washing machine in terms of value engineering for a for a wee while. We're just just about out the other side of that with pandemic projects now. But what I would say is that in terms of material playfulness, small scale domestic work is actually quite a good place to do that because they're reasonably quick to get through.
Matt Loader:They're reasonably easy to control the costs on. And and it's reasonably easy if it's one client and not a committee that you're dealing with to to sell to sell them on an idea. So they are quite useful, from the idea of, well, if you want to try doing something else, that, you know, they're relatively quick and relatively easy to say, Well, let's try using whatever it is on this project, cement particle boards as a cladding or whatever, that, that you have the opportunity to do that. So they are nice still to to do from time to time.
Dave Sharp:They're part of the mix, the smaller projects, where you're getting kind of to that stage and that size where, you know, that that sort of minimum floor in terms of budget is obviously always going up, where it doesn't become, you know, profitable to work on really, really small projects. But as you're saying, if there an opportunity to quickly test an idea or to do something, be a bit more playful as you put it and and and and sort of end up with something that, I guess, like, showcases an idea that you can then put out into the world, absolutely, that totally makes sense.
Matt Loader:I mean, we sort of have, like, 3 kind of guiding principles to whether we should take on a project. So, one is, is it the type of project that we want to do in its own right? It has to be one of these three things, if not all 3 of them in an ideal world. So one of them is, is it the kind of project that we want to work on? Is it an enjoyable looking thing?
Matt Loader:Is there is there potential there? If if that's not the case, if it's too small, for example, will it lead to something? I. E. Is the client sufficiently interesting or well engaged in something else?
Matt Loader:Or, you know, is there something that may come of it as a consequence of working on it that justifies doing it? And then the third one is, is there money to be made in doing this? It has to be one of those three things that justifies taking on a project. If it's not a fun thing to work on, if it's not going to lead anywhere, if it's not going to make you money, there's no point doing it. And so it has to be one of those guiding principles that that makes you take on a piece of work.
Dave Sharp:I guess, like, practices when they're thinking about what this project could lead to, they sometimes, I mean, their radar for that might not be super finely tuned sometimes. Like, there's a little bit of optimism there sometimes misplaced of, like, oh, this might not be great, but it will turn into this huge thing. And then, you know, it's not always gonna actually sort of eventuate. But do you guys feel that you've been pretty good at identifying, like, how the projects that you're presented with these opportunities may be able to connect to other things? And have you been pretty successful in terms of, like, navigating that?
Iain Monteith:Yeah. I mean, it's it's happened in a a couple of occasions. You know, we've we've worked on things. But I think first and foremost, you know, the the the initial project, you know, such a big rush to say, oh, well, it might lead to x, y, and zed. So you can never really, you know, rely on that.
Iain Monteith:If if if we if we do do that, then, you know, it's in the back of our minds, but it's certainly not hanging off everything. You know, you still have to be willing to do that initial project, really, and it's on its own. But, yeah, we've had instances where we've carried out, you know, small projects, which recently have turned into, you know, after a period of 4 years, this came back and is now a big an big project for an international client. So, you know, that that that's probably the biggest, or the most evident project of that type, which is nice to see. But, you know, but originally we wanted to work on the smaller part on on its own anyway without knowing what was to come 4 years down the line.
Iain Monteith:How could you ever know what's gonna happen in 4 years down the line?
Matt Loader:I think it's very easy as well and to to to be focusing on what's next and to forget about actually really trying to, you know, ring out now, ring out the best of of the stuff that's that's that's in now. And, you know, if you there's a a a saying that I think I quite like, which is, you know, the reward for good work is more work. And that actually just means making everything that you're working on now the focus of your attention and not trying to look too far beyond the horizon, but actually just just the stuff that you have, do do that and do it well and everything else will take care of itself. That doesn't get over the, sort of, the the sort of the cash flow anxiety, of of when when you look forward and you see things start tailing away. But here we are 7 years in, and and that's not ever been too much of an issue.
Matt Loader:So
Dave Sharp:I had a guest on the Australian series talking about how he had noticed that this was a common tendency in the industry that you start getting all excited about the new projects and you sort of, like, kind of lose interest in stuff as it's coming going through those last stages. And it's, like, kind of commitment all the way through those last stages, which is, like, massive for the relationship with the client, but also, like, huge for the project as well. Right?
Iain Monteith:I think it was a thrill of the catch, obviously. You know? Yeah. When you you want a project and you get a project, there's obviously that thrill and then the establishing the design. And, yeah, as you get through a project and it starts getting a bit more, feet in the ground and on-site flashing things out.
Iain Monteith:I could I could see why that might be an issue, for some, but I think we're pretty focused on the the full delivery. You know, Matt and I will still be on Matt and I are still out on-site talking about gutter details as I was yesterday, with zinc with zinc clad and in Salma. Subcontractors, you know, we we still do and still involved in that. And that's kind of because ultimately, we recognize that being involved in those conversations is is just as important because the last thing that's done is the first thing that's seen, you know. So we can spend, you know, 2 years designing something, working away on it, and a joiner might put a skirt and board in the wrong place, and that's the first thing people will see.
Iain Monteith:So the 2 years of work is is is gone. So you really need to be committed to and it's true. You know, the first thing the first thing people see is the last thing that's done. You know? And it can take the the shine of a project of someone, you know, if it's just not finished properly.
Iain Monteith:And and ultimately, we we still we still have that oversight. We still we still recognize the importance of that. So and also that making sure that your clients know that you are there. Except that, you know, the practice is our name. I think initially when we set it up so that people knew that we were responsible, you know, they had a contact that was on us, you know, and that's still the same way.
Iain Monteith:Made a
Matt Loader:total rod for our back.
Iain Monteith:Made a rod for our back. Absolutely. But it's still that because that's a big conversation. People say, oh, how egotistical that you've called to practice after yourselves. It never really came from that place.
Iain Monteith:It wasn't about, you know, this is our name. This is how good we are. It was more about, some authenticity. You know, we're not an an it's not an unknown, you know, name. You know, I don't know.
Iain Monteith:Some arbitrary.
Dave Sharp:There's definitely strong arguments on both sides. I get I get an even split on the on the podcast of people that are sort of like, my name's on the brand because that's me saying, like, I stand behind the work. You know, my reputation is kind of stamped on this work. Like, that's so important. Right?
Dave Sharp:But then I get just as many studios that are like, I don't want people to think that they're only gonna get me, the director, involved in everything, and I want this to be like a team inclusive thing. And
Iain Monteith:It can change. You know, we've seen plenty of practices that have changed. You know, that that that start off in that manner. And then as more as more people come into the practice and more people take responsibility, then, you know changes so you you never know how things can develop. But certainly when we started it was just Matt and I And especially when it was personable, you know, a lot of our projects are personable, residential, 1 to 1, you know.
Iain Monteith:Yeah. As I see, these things develop. I mean
Dave Sharp:Talking about those later stages of the project, I guess, like, this theme comes up often, but the importance of being good at getting things built, you know, and seeing projects through to actually, you know, being built and being completed. Like, that's actually quite that's one of the big challenges, isn't it, for for studios in the early years? You're talking about the value engineering and everything. It's made it really tough to to see projects all the way through. So what are your secrets?
Iain Monteith:Secrets, and they're losing money probably at that point.
Matt Loader:Gray hair and wrink wrinkles. Gray hair and wrinkles.
Iain Monteith:A lot of worry of sleepless nights. But I was at a talk a few years back by a larger practice in Scotland and they talked about, you know, how fees come in, you know, throughout stages of the project. But actually you should squirtle away those fees because your time on-site is the most expensive part of the project because that's when, you know, sometimes you get a phone call. We need you here. I mean, we need to hear now, and that's not what you were planning to do, and and there's that extra time on-site.
Iain Monteith:But, ultimately, yeah, it comes back to cost and value. You might be losing money at that point, but there's a value on you being there and making sure that it does turn out. And, ultimately, you get that course back because that is then the product that's seen and that is then the thing that wins you more work. So it's it's not it's not kind of black and white. It's a kind of gray process.
Iain Monteith:I think the ultimate the ultimate goal is to make sure that the end product is is right and and the architecture turns out. And then you can build upon that. You know, you may lose money at the time, but it stands you in good stead going forward. So I think that's why, yeah, we're still out there looking at sculpting details and handrails and on on on tiny jobs because of miles. You
Dave Sharp:know? Your experience working in larger scale or conservation or social social affordable housing and then coming into your own practice with sort of an eventual view to be doing quite a broad range of work and not just, you know, sort of private homes forever. I wonder if or how you thought about the way that you communicated that work out into the world, just keeping in mind that we're always making choices between maybe like a more consumer facing, I guess, language and ideas when we're talking about houses. But we also need to be mindful that we're eventually gonna be speaking to different sort of audiences, professional audiences, councils, developers, that sort of thing.
Matt Loader:It's a really relevant, question to something that we're going through at the moment, actually, which is that we are so as Ian said, you know, we're 7 years old and of that 2 and a bit years was sort of a COVID black hole that we were in. So we're now finishing off the 3rd generation of projects. And a lot of the work that came in, particularly in the early part of the pandemic, was people sitting at home absolutely desperate for a bit more space. And so, you know, as a practice that a lot of people, ourselves included, were nervous about what the future was gonna hold in 2020 and whether we were gonna have enough work to to sustain us for however long it went on, that we were all sitting working at home. So we said yes to a lot of those small scale projects.
Matt Loader:But what we don't want to do is keep working on those small scale of projects by default. So the question then is, well, you know, that that those there are interesting things about them, but how do we talk about those things thematically without talking about them typologically? So whether it's about an application of material or their relationship between inside and outside or how it promotes learning in a healthy environment or you know, there's other ways that you can talk about your projects that isn't, this is a house extension, This is a house. This is an office. This is a and so actually trying to and it's we're in the throes of sort of reorganizing our websites to allow us to start talking more thematically about material use or about adaptation or about conservation or so on and so forth.
Matt Loader:And yeah.
Iain Monteith:And I think I think in that messaging, you still need to be honest that you can't you can't be everything to everybody. You know? There's just clients that don't wanna work with you, and that's you're just have to accept that. You know, it's the same. You you go you go in a shop and you you buy a jacket because you wanna buy that jacket, and then maybe that's an oversimplification, but I think we we can't be everything to everybody.
Iain Monteith:We can only really be authentic about what what we what how we think and what we think is important. And I think the the kind of key message in, coming through is and our work can probably all work as if we're empathetic. We try and understand clients principally, without being overly dramatic. You know, arch was architecture about humanity, the human condition, providing places that we can find shelter and to either study or to live or to enjoy art or or what have you. So I think, you know, as a as a practice, as people essentially, we're we try and be empathetic to varying clients, varying typologies.
Iain Monteith:And and when you come from that place, then we hope we we can open ourselves up to to different typologies and different clients. And and that's that's probably the key kind of message that underpins all.
Dave Sharp:You feel like that's maybe become kind of that key positioning idea that maybe works kind of across different sectors and typologies?
Iain Monteith:Yeah. No. Yeah. I mean, if this architecture is not about humanity, then, what is it? You know, it's the fundamental idea of shelter and, you know, that that's pretty much what every building is trying to do in some way.
Iain Monteith:What what you do inside it is, you know can vary that behavior can vary and the needs might vary but essentially it's how do you respond to what your client needs across any typology and and get across that we are, yeah, as I say, empathetic to to that and trying to understand trying to simply trying to put yourself in a client's position and understand exactly what they need. And then how can we how can we enhance that? How can we combine their needs with their site, with their topography, with all the things that come with a project?
Matt Loader:I mean, to come to come back to a point that you had asked earlier, Dave, in terms of how we are good at getting work onto sites, I think it all stems from that. And, you know, it's really easy on a drawing board to design a beautiful project that's big, made out of expensive materials, exciting, but that doesn't have any basis in gravity or, budgets or, planning constraints. And I think that we're I think that empathy means that those things those things are considered right at the early stages. You know, we don't start work on any project if we don't seriously expect it to be built. What that means is there's a lot of being empathetic but also managing your clients' expectations as to what they might be able to get for their money at the end of it, which is a really difficult thing to do.
Matt Loader:As I said, you know, most for most people, aspiration outstrips budget.
Dave Sharp:I find it interesting sometimes when we're thinking about messaging and and conveying what we're doing, there seems to be kind of 2 ends of the spectrum of I think of it as kind of service centricity and then product centricity. And I don't like to use the word product, but in this case, it's more thinking service being, like, the way we interact with clients and sort of how we deliver what we do, and product being, like, how you might talk about the qualities of the architecture itself or, like, the physical space. It's interesting there that, you know, in terms of talking about empathy as a sort of that fundamental and, you know, engaging with the clients brief and situation, it is kind of more of that service lens. And I think that that's, I'm just interested in that choice because maybe contrasting that with alternative ways that you could do it. I'm interested if at any point you had maybe looked into or thought about focusing more on, like, the work as the part of the communication rather than the way that we kind of deal with clients?
Dave Sharp:Or do you sort of see empathy as being this concept that can kind of nicely combine the 2?
Iain Monteith:For me, the the the projects come from the empathetic understanding. We I don't know how you would design without a brief and without understanding a client. You know, if you're designing in a silo, to me that is not right. You know, I I know I'm aware that there might be, you know, there might be architects or designers that you go to and, it doesn't maybe it doesn't matter what you ask for. You get one of their buildings.
Matt Loader:I always, yeah, I always feel it's a real cheat actually on our, you know, when you go and look on on our website, it tells you who who the architects were, us, who the engineers were, who the cost consultants were, who the builders were. The one thing that they're at least as much a part of the project as we are is is the clients. You know? Like, it has to be a manifestation of them at least as much as it is of us. And, you know, that is about
Iain Monteith:But I think that's why every project probably that not as bespoke and it's got its own identity because we're always trying to we're always trying to respond to that client, that site, the time and the place, and probably why we're not very profitable, but there you go. But that's where we get satisfaction as that at the end of the project, we can look at it and say, right, well, that is responsive to, the brief and the place and, you know, the time and the error. I think that's what makes archit that's what makes architecture. You know?
Dave Sharp:And I think that's a good way of putting it as well. Like, you know, the list of people that are involved and then no client. You know? We don't talk much about them. And, you know, sometimes that more sort of, like, product architectural description writing that's trying to, like, convey in words, like, I guess, the feeling of the space or the materials or the form or the detail or whatever, those sort of more, like, tangible aspects, like, that's very not about the client.
Dave Sharp:It's more about, like, the expression of the building as a piece of art. Like, how does it convey what it does. Right? And at the end of the day, like, that's not really what we're what we're doing.
Matt Loader:No. I mean, we we say it quite a lot. You know? Like, the point at which our job ends isn't the end of the building. It's the start of it.
Matt Loader:You know? That's it when it's starting its life. It's the point at which we're shaking hands and saying thanks for hopefully a lovely project. How our projects are recorded is a thing that we talk about a lot in house. That, you know, architecture is kind of, it's not sculpture.
Matt Loader:You know, it's about shaping the human condition and about making it more joyful, easier, more poetic. But but, therefore, the photography has to reflect that humanity that exists in the architecture. It's not, you know, the photographs are not Which is a monument to our brilliant
Iain Monteith:Yeah. But it's def I mean, it's difficult at the end of any project. There's also a rush to take photographs and, get on the website and get out there. But they never really kind of reflect the life of they try but, you know, as Matt says, the building isn't alive at that point. And so, you know, you you better you probably gotta take photographs after 3 years, 5 years, 10 years to actually see how the how the life of the building is is panning out.
Iain Monteith:You know?
Dave Sharp:And increasingly, that is kind of the way things are going a little bit. Like, we're seeing it a lot of different ways, whether it's increasing the amount of film being taken to sort to try and show the building in use. I feel like it used to be that a couple of weeks, the project was complete and the photographer would be coming in, but now it's starting to be like, let's wait a year. Let's wait 2 years for the landscape to really settle and, you know, there's, like, definitely more of a patience towards waiting, seeing the project's full potential, not being like the day you hand over the keys.
Iain Monteith:From a business point of view, if if if you've completed that specific type of work and you wanna bring in more of that work as quickly as possible, you need to then you need to tell people about that work. You know, if you're sitting on a 1st private house It's
Dave Sharp:brutal, isn't it?
Iain Monteith:We we were sitting on a lot of kind of small small domestic stuff and we had this huge house, you know, sitting there and it was like, you know, let's get photographs taken in a year and what have you and like yeah. But that's a whole year of people not realizing that we work at that scale. So
Dave Sharp:It's tough. And that's saying we're always kind of debating on the podcast and, you know, I think the people that do wait patiently, they are definitely onto something, at least with 1 or 2 of their projects, because sometimes the outcome in terms of the media around the project, it can be so special the way that that project can kind of come across to be in a position to be not relying on that project to be out there. But I don't know, I found personally that projects, I don't find that they tend to really have a very direct and immediate connection to new business or, like, always. I mean, sometimes they do, but I find that it's more just it contributes to the overall sort of awareness of the practice and, like, the visibility of it. And what have you guys found?
Dave Sharp:Like, generally speaking, do you feel like it's good to get out quickly because we have found that, you know, that will bring more of that type of work. And
Iain Monteith:I think as a I think as a younger practice, it's it's probably more of an urgency because, you know, you're just getting up and running. You know, going forward, there's maybe not so much of a but but going forward, there's been not so much of an urgency because, you know, people can see what scale we now work at, you know, and and the types of projects we deliver. So that that foundation is there. Going forward, if we think, actually, yeah, this this project really depends on the landscape. Let's wait.
Iain Monteith:Then I think we would do that.
Dave Sharp:Like, you guys might be in the situation now where you have those smaller residential projects that you don't really, like, need to demonstrate that you can do. Like, you're solid on that, but they're cool and they're special and you took them on because there was something really, like, interesting in that brief or that site. Maybe that can sit there and, like, the landscape could get beautiful and the client can buy some beautiful artwork. And, like, that can all happen, and we can shoot that a little bit slower. But if you're about to do a big retirement community or some some some big, like, public awesome thing, then you're like, no.
Dave Sharp:That's the day the day it opens. We're taking photos, kind of thing.
Matt Loader:We have had this recently on a project that's just been photographed, and it's our first school building, that we're working on. And, because of the nature of, the school, initially, they wanted us to photograph it, you know, like, on a day. So, and and so we, we did that, initially. The ground hasn't really bedded in in those photographs. And then we got a second bite of the cherry, to do the internals after they had put their furniture in.
Matt Loader:But, it was after a really, really it was a really rainy day. Really, really, really rainy day. So, the images are a bit dark. So we have just very so the the what that means is the school who are gonna use those for a lot of their press, they're going to, they're delighted with the photographs. They're really happy.
Matt Loader:But we did ask very nicely whether perhaps in springtime next year, we might have the opportunity to go back and and and just do a little refresh of some of those images And, and, thankfully, the school have acquiesced and said that's okay. So, because we were I'm not not upset. It's not that. But we like, the school the build we're really proud of the building. And and, to date, we don't think perhaps that the photographs reflect the the the extent to which we're proud of the work that we've done.
Matt Loader:Here's a question, actually, for you, Dave. Do you get seasonal growing in in Australia? Because with here, it's basically between about now and May. You know, you it'll look like creepy hollow if you take a photograph in Scotland with with deciduous trees in it.
Dave Sharp:Totally. I mean, it's certainly more extreme in Scotland, I think. You know? Or maybe the UK generally, but I generally find my Scottish clients, it's probably the most extreme, the difference between the seasons and the way that image comes out. And the conversation we always kind of have is, like, instinctively, we don't maybe wanna shoot in that kind of autumn or we don't wanna shoot it when everything's covered in snow, but I've heard a lot of stuff just anecdotally from my clients that have found that sometimes those projects are maybe a lot easier to promote in some ways, either because there's a shortage of that kind of imagery or there'll be a theme to particular issues of magazines where they wanna go for that more kind of wintery or more kind of autumn y kind of look.
Dave Sharp:Just everyone's booking photography for the same sort of springtime of the year, and it just becomes so competitive. And that's ultimately what it's about with with media and awards. Right? It's like, if everyone's doing it at the same time, we're kind of
Matt Loader:I would say that probably 2 of the projects that, you we could attribute, winning more work off the back of. 1 is a cottage extension and reconfiguration up in the Highlands, Strome. And the other one is Keel House, the sort of the standalone house that Ian was talking about. They were they were both the external, photographs of those were both taken in the snow, actually. So
Dave Sharp:I hear more people saying snowshoots kill it than sunny, so I'm kind of, like, leaning towards leaning towards the snow.
Matt Loader:I I'm thinking out loud at this stage, but I I guess perhaps there there might be a bit of you you know, the magazines, of course, want those snow shots through the winter. And particularly in the northern hemisphere, what that means is that they may be in print around Christmas, and New Year's resolution time is the thing, perhaps.
Dave Sharp:Yeah. We have a little bit of seasonality in the Australian market around, like, kind of, I don't know, September, October. I I don't know. People tend to not shoot anything around that period. I'm not I'm not sure why, but I I was just recording an interview with an editor of a big magazine here, and I was desperate for them to tell me when their quiet period was when nobody's sending in projects.
Dave Sharp:And she said October. Yeah. Just before summer. What other sort of things you you guys mentioned you're working on the website. You're thinking about sort of language and the themes that you kind of touch on, and you're also thinking about your photography approach as well.
Dave Sharp:I'm just curious. Are there any other things that are kind of, like, in change at the moment, or there's any, like, uncertainty or challenge where you're kinda like, we're currently thinking about this or kinda wondering about this. I'm always kinda interested to hear these, if there's anything that comes to mind.
Iain Monteith:The the workplace, the office, the physical environment.
Dave Sharp:Oh, okay. Talk to me about that.
Iain Monteith:Our physical environment is changing quick. Well, it's changed dramatically since Matt and I started. You know, we we we started in a well, Matt started in a cupboard, on his own. Harry Potter on the stairs.
Dave Sharp:What are you
Iain Monteith:Harry Potter on the other stairs.
Matt Loader:And he was he get let out. I've left my glasses.
Iain Monteith:And then we we, you know, we rented a desk space and a studio. And then we moved to Matt's loft. And then we moved to a barbershop, a former barbershop, which was tiny. And so that was just Matt and I, and Ian King joined us at at right at that moment. So there's the 3 of us in there.
Iain Monteith:And prior to COVID at one point, I think it was 7 of us in it. 6. 6. 6. And which resulted in phone phone calls happening on the street because you couldn't hear yourself think.
Iain Monteith:And then COVID happened.
Matt Loader:Did you
Dave Sharp:still have all the chairs or was it chairless?
Iain Monteith:No. I had the chairs. We had the You have the chairs? There's a there's a photograph somewhere. There is a photograph somewhere.
Matt Loader:It it was wild.
Iain Monteith:Yeah. Yeah. And it was not it was not good.
Dave Sharp:How'd you rent a barber shop?
Matt Loader:Because at the point well, at the point at which we signed the lease on it, it was just Ian and I. And it was 30 square meters. And the 2 of us in there by ourselves would have been rattling around, you know? It was fine. It was just stuff grew arms and legs a little bit.
Iain Monteith:And then it went so it went from that to, like, no no one in the office because of COVID. So we couldn't get any we couldn't get more than 2 people in there because of distancing. And now we're under more facilities. What how big is this? About 200 square meters.
Iain Monteith:About 200 square meters, which we've been in for coming up to 2 years, just under 2 years, 2 years in January. And we're never at a point of fitting it out. So, you know, it's been furniture designed and a kitchen arriving at tables happening. And Aaron Aaron and
Matt Loader:in Ian in the office have been tasked with with doing that, and I it's sort of like this hilarious thing. You know, you've got a room with 8 architects in it. Trying trying to make that work. Exactly. Trying to and, and so we're trying to to keep trying to keep shtum, not saying just let them do what they do.
Matt Loader:Like, the last thing they need is another bloody opinion, you know.
Dave Sharp:So Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's quite funny the number of times on the podcast that where I've asked practices, what was the kind of the biggest sort of turning point for your practices as a, I guess, as a brand or where you really like I don't know. Things started moving in a in a big direction.
Dave Sharp:And the number of times people have said the office, like buying the office, doing the office, upgrading the office, buying nice furniture for the first time, having nice cutlery for the first time, like these sorts of things. I've become, like, a big believer that it pays for itself many times over that investment in the space. So
Matt Loader:I really hope you're right.
Iain Monteith:No. It's a, you know, it's a manifestation of you doing well or, you know, or Yeah. Exactly. To to to buy it. But also I think it's important for, for us and and and everybody that works here that they they get to work in an environment that I'll be working on and they're coming to work each day and thinking the office is cool.
Iain Monteith:You know? It was a bit it was an it was a big deal for me when, you know, I used to work in in offices. You know? If you come in every day and there's something, I don't like this place. It it impacts your day, so I think it's important to to to get it right.
Iain Monteith:So
Dave Sharp:What's your sort of future thinking about the practice, the direction you wanna go with it in terms of location? Do you see yourself sort of staying based at headquartered Glasgow for indefinitely the rest of time as far as the office goes, or do you sort of think maybe based on wherever your clients are kind of coming from, do you feel like eventually there might be a move somewhere else, a second office? Like, any ideas sort of bubbling away there?
Matt Loader:Yeah. I mean, we have so I think the first thing to say is probably that, you know, it's not just Ian and Ian King and myself. You know, there's, we all have other halves and we have kids that go to nursery and school. And so it's not a, you know, it's not a thing that decision that's taken in isolation. Our work is already pretty well spread, the length of the United Kingdom.
Matt Loader:So we we've we've recently been asked about a project down in Cornwall. That's right down near Penzance, which is about as far away on the UK mainland as you can get from us, actually. And it runs all the way up into the Highlands and Islands, which is hours of driving in the other direction. So, I mean, all things And by the way, a whole bunch of places in between Manchester, Birmingham. There's quite a bit of work over in Edinburgh, albeit that's relatively close.
Matt Loader:Northumberlands, etcetera, etcetera. So, you know, we have work in a lot of places and actually, Glasgow is well connected. It is you know, there's a lot of, motorways that run, and there's lots of good train connectivity and air connectivity and so on and so forth. And I do think as well that, the pandemic has definitely changed what's acceptable in terms of where you work. And I don't just mean, you know, everybody being in the office.
Matt Loader:I mean, in terms of the technology gap that I think everybody thought may exist about not necessarily being within 20 minutes' drive is less of an issue perhaps now than it was before. Yeah.
Iain Monteith:I mean, before the pandemic, the thought of us doing this podcast to yourself and Health Australia might seem a bit more it wouldn't have been impossible, but it it maybe have been a bit more unusual. We've never limited ourselves to where we would work. I think it goes back to that comment about, you know, what is a candidate we feel we can contribute to, you know, and and we just go, you know, like, if it's in porno, if it's in Elgin. And, you know, and and the next step would be, is it is it not on the British Isles? And that would be that would be exciting as well.
Iain Monteith:You know?
Dave Sharp:Yeah. So you don't really need to, you know, set up a London office or a Europe office or something like that to be able to actually serve those clients. I mean, it's not really not really necessary. Right?
Iain Monteith:No. I mean, I get I was in London last week. It wasn't for a project. It was for an event. But, you know, in terms of getting there, you see now if I was 4 up 4 hours on a train.
Dave Sharp:Because I always find working with Scottish practices that there is always quite an in international reach. It's quite common, I I find where, you know, clients might, your clients might be like, residential clients might be based in Hong Kong or Australia or New Zealand or America. Like, I find that all the time, and it always sort of surprises me. This sort of there's there's this international client base that, you know, buy a place in Edinburgh, buy a place in Glasgow or somewhere in the Highlands or whatever, because maybe they grew up in Scotland or whatever, but there's I find there's a lot of that. Like, do you guys sort of see that as well?
Dave Sharp:I suppose mostly the residential side, but seems like international is always a bit of a bit of a thing.
Iain Monteith:Yeah. But we've had we've got clients. I've had clients that have been based in South Africa, Dubai, Hong Kong, New York, New States, New Jersey states. Like, I think I think the further further away you are from a place, the more exotic it is. So when, you know, when you live in, I don't know, California, and you look at the Scottish Highlands in the snow, you think, ah, gonna retreat there.
Iain Monteith:That would be lovely. And they're right. But that's as always that. When we think about Australian person surfing and beaches and all of that. You know?
Iain Monteith:Whereas you'd probably think,
Dave Sharp:Christmas on the beat. I feel like it's probably the first time I've used the actual word marketing in this whole conversation, but, like, I wonder in terms of your marketing, like, strategy or approach, knowing that you guys attract clients from, like, Dubai and America? Is that something that kind of crosses your mind a little bit in terms of maybe it's smart to kind of make sure that we're also speaking to a kind of a global audience or maybe approaching kind of international media as much as we are local. Is it something that you actually, like, actively prioritize? Or does it just somehow happen?
Dave Sharp:Because I guess the question is, like, how do you find you kind of get discovered in these sort of international markets?
Iain Monteith:I think I think it comes back to our approach in in the sense that we always talk about the projects are responding to client in place. So inherently, you know, if a project is rooted in its place, then it's Scotland, then it's just then it then it can sales it off the back of the back of that. I would never I wouldn't say, you know, I don't think we've had a conversation that said, you know, let's sell brand Scotland, you know, for instance. I I don't
Dave Sharp:Yeah. It it seems to be kind of quite random and unpredictable why certain people find certain architects. And from the marketing vantage point, we'd like to imagine that it's all this, like, you know, there's a real science to it, and we know exactly why everything happens and it it all clicks. But oftentimes, it's just pretty random and unpredictable, and you don't really know what's gonna happen.
Matt Loader:The the the term shouting into the void, I think, is quite relevant to marketing a lot. If you don't really know who's gonna hear it but, but if there's a if you feel like you have something that's worth showing and you show it, hopefully, somebody will pick it up and and and, you know, lift the phone or drop a line.
Dave Sharp:Those of us who have more of, like, kind of controlling tendencies who want to have everything perfect, which I and and under our control, which I think is quite common tendency in the industry, They maybe sort of sometimes see marketing or or comms through that lens as well, but there's a perfect way that I can approach this that allows me to control how I'm seen and who I'm seen by, and it will be perfectly targeted. And at the same time, a lot of the time, what we're doing is exactly what you said, shouting into the void. We're trying to address the whole group of people that are in the market that could be possible clients, and a small, small, small percentage of them will be the right fit, and that will hopefully come to us. And sometimes it's just as simple as that. Right?
Dave Sharp:There's not much more to it than putting it out there. But that's why, I mean, what you guys were talking about earlier was saying, like, we put a lot of focus into the how the things we put out there are put out there. You know, we're quite we're thoughtful and methodical about that because you recognize that that's what it kind of all boils down to at the end of the day. Right? Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, guys.
Dave Sharp:And, yeah, it was a real pleasure. So thank you.
Matt Loader:Thank you very much for inviting me, Steve. Thanks.
Dave Sharp:That was my conversation with Matt Loder and Ian Monteith from Loder Monteith. If you'd like to learn more about their studio, you can visit loadermontith.co.uk or
Matt Loader:follow them
Dave Sharp:on Instagram at loadermontith. Office Talk is hosted by Office Dave Sharp, a strategic marketing and brand definition practice for architecture. We work collaboratively with clients across the UK. So to learn more about our process and book a consultation, simply visit officedavesharpe.com. Today's episode of Office Talk was edited and produced by Anthony Richardson of Simple Dwelling Studio.
Dave Sharp:That's all for this episode. Thank you so much for listening. I'll see you next time.