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Presented by the American Bar Association’s Law Student Division, the ABA Law Student Podcast covers issues that affect law students, law schools, and recent grads. From finals and graduation to the bar exam and finding a job, this show is your trusted resource for the next big step.
Todd Berger (00:00):
For law students with a passion both for the law and the arts, the field of copyright has long held a strong appeal. The prospect of working with and protecting the interests of all kinds of artists, such as musicians, filmmakers, and authors, has excited new lawyers for years. However, it's generally been understood that copyright was a boutique field with too much competition and not enough work, but now that landscape is shifting. On today's episode, we sit down with an attorney who reveals how technology has transformed copyright from a static set of rules into a rapidly growing high stakes battlefield. We discuss how AI is rewriting the concept of ownership, the moral rights of creators, and how you can position yourself to enter a field that is suddenly in desperate need of new experts. This is the ABA Law Student Podcast. Welcome to the ABA Law Student Podcast here with Eve and Nayeli, the season's host. How are you doing, Eve?
Eve Albert (01:11):
I'm doing great. The semester's winding down, so I've been breathing a lot easier lately.
Todd Berger (01:17):
That's true. Few maybe exams left maybe, but not sure if you're done or not, but thank you for being here.
Eve Albert (01:26):
Oh yeah,
Nayeli Diaz (01:27):
Happy to be here
Todd Berger (01:28):
And great to see Nayeli as well. How are you doing Nayeli?
Nayeli Diaz (01:31):
I'm good. As you've said, it's the throws of final season, but we're getting through it.
Todd Berger (01:35):
Well, thank you for being here and thank you for this week's interview, which is a really awesome interview. Who are we going to hear from them? What are they going to talk about?
Nayeli Diaz (01:44):
Today? We're going to hear from Kristyn Webb, who's a copyright litigator at Fishman and Stewart, which is based in Michigan, and she's going to talk to us a little bit about her journey to copyright law, some things law students might not be aware of in copyright law and how to get your footing in copyright law when you're just starting out.
Todd Berger (02:02):
What made you want to talk to the guest and just explore two things I guess, which is copyright law and litigation.
Nayeli Diaz (02:10):
Yeah, as we've probably previously discussed, I'm really interested in soft ip, which is trademarks and copyrights, and I've often felt that copyright is sort of an area of the IP web that is a little bit more mysterious. It's a little bit harder to get information on and it's really niche. So I wanted to talk to Kristyn an effort to demystify that for any of our listeners who maybe like me, were a little bit confused or a little bit want for more information about how to explore this area of practice.
Todd Berger (02:39):
Yeah, I think there's probably a lot of listeners out there who are interested in working with artists and musicians and in different visual mediums and aren't quite sure exactly how to marry their law degree to that kind of work. So it's a really great interview for those students or young lawyers who might be interested in that. And I think one of the things I found most interesting as our listeners will hear soon is part of Kristyn's career path was actually influenced by the fact that the lions were having a losing season. So hopefully that will be interesting. But I know we have a great guest and Kristyn and really interested in hearing her story and I know our listeners will be as well. So let's get started.
Nayeli Diaz (03:20):
Would you just start off by telling our listeners a little bit about you, your career, your law school journey?
Kristyn Webb (03:27):
Sure. Well, my law school journey started just before law school really. I was working for an intellectual property law firm. I worked for an attorney called Alan Krass. He had been in the business for quite a while, and I kind of was just taking that job because I needed a job. It was during the recession in Michigan, in Detroit. The auto industry had collapsed. The mayor of Detroit went to jail. The lions were losing. Everything was really terrible and I needed a job. So I took this one working for Allen and it was great. I really had no background in law or in intellectual property, but I really enjoyed the work. He told me, maybe you should go to law school. And after quite a bit of prompting, I did apply and went to law school. I went to Loyola in New Orleans where I could study common law and civil law.
(04:21):
And then after law school, I took the first job I could get back in Michigan and worked for the courts for a while for the Michigan Supreme Court where I clerked for Justice Wilder and then the Michigan Court of Appeals where I clerked for Judge Reardon. And those were great experiences, a wonderful time to be at the court. It was through the pandemic through the 2020 election, a very exciting time to be there, but it was doing everything really that was not ip. And one day Alan called me, said, well, I heard this firm is hiring and they're a great firm and you should go work there. And I told them, you'd send your resume, so do it now like this second, okay, drop everything and send in my resume. And that's how I ended up at the firm I'm currently at. That was a spring of 2021.
(05:11):
I transitioned into private practice, so now I work for Fishman Stewart, and we are a smallish law firm. I think the term used to be boutique, but I think we're trending away from boutique and now into concierge. We're sort of rebranding the idea of concierge legal services. We do strictly ip. Our firm wanted somebody who specialized in copyright. I think they saw AI as coming for us all and there's going to be a lot of copyright implications and we need somebody who just does it day in, day out. So they actually supported me to go to do a master's in copyright law through Kings College London, and it was a great program. It was comparative of eu, uk, US copyright law. So now we've created a copyright department and it is currently a department of one. That's me, but it is a growing field and it is really a growing practice area, and it's a fun time to be in copyright because of AI and because of the politics around it. It's a very exciting time.
Nayeli Diaz (06:18):
Do you see a trend of firms putting more emphasis on soft IP or starting to understand maybe the value of soft IP a little bit more? Because when I got into law school it was very patent heavy, but I know there's a lot of people who want to do soft IP patents or sorry, trademarks and copyrights. So like you're saying, your firm saw the value in that a little early on. So do you think that's where other firms are going?
Kristyn Webb (06:42):
I think so. I think if you look at the job posting such as that are out there right now, if you do the Google jobs search or looked on LinkedIn, you see a lot of openings in the soft IP side. You see quite a few on the patent side Still, that's always a big area, but as one of my colleagues said, yes, there's a lot of work in patents, but there's a lot more competition now. It's still a big pie, but there's a lot more pie eaters for that particular flavor of pie where with trademark, it was sort of an, I think for a long time, a very much sort of an entrepreneurial area where not all the clients who could benefit from trademark protection were really utilizing registration and really policing their marks. And so a lot of practitioners getting into it had to educate the clients and potential clients of, okay, here's what trademark is and here's what it does and here's what you need to do.
(07:37):
So yeah, the jobs were there, but it was in a much more entrepreneurial sense of you have to go out and create the position for yourself. And now I think you see a lot more jobs posted of, okay, we all know trademark is really important, so now we need more people who are educated and experienced in that. And you are seeing firms that are sort of lowering that threshold, that barrier to entry of we want three to five years experience or seven to eight years experience, and now they say, just come to us. Any experience is great, but no experience. Fine, we'll trade you right out of law school and trademark. And currently, I think copyright is still maybe a bit where trademark was of it's kind of entrepreneurial still. I mean, there's a lot of copyright in the world and not a lot of it's registered, not a lot of it's enforced, A lot of it's infringed, but being a practitioner, it is a bit of an entrepreneurial feel right now.
Nayeli Diaz (08:35):
What do you think some misconceptions are that recent grad law students tend to have about copyright law and how it fits into this broader IP web?
Kristyn Webb (08:44):
I think even until you get into practice for a while, and for some people once they've been in practice for a while, it's hard to recall that it is part of a web. There is a lot of overlap between copyright and the other domains, and sometimes being in the copyright space, you're educating your fellow practitioners about, okay, so the client has a design pen. Maybe we should look at copyright protection as well, because it lasts, it's going to outlast the design patent. It is cost effective. It's easy to enforce at the border to a degree where you can take your copyright registration down to customs and border protection. You can actually register the application, but you can't do that with a design patent. If there's infringing goods coming across the board, you have to go to the ITC and get an exclusion order. That's expensive.
(09:39):
It can take a year where if you're just trying to register with customs, once that copywriter registration comes in real handy, so educate 'em to sort of think about it outside of that narrow focus of, okay, patent patent, patent patent of no, let's look at the product or let's look at what all might be in the IP and protect it from holistic point of view. Sort of the same thing with trademark of educating your colleagues about, okay, so the client has some legacy brands. They can't maintain the registration, no use. What about if the design mark is creative enough to pass that threshold? Maybe let's look at registration for it with the copyright office because you don't need use. You can just have it and enforce it a little bit. It doesn't do copyright's, not going to do everything, but it does do some things and it sort of lies in between those gaps, but it helps fill those gaps too between the different domains.
Nayeli Diaz (10:38):
I think the part that you mentioned about the borders is something that what I took my copyright course was, I don't think that we talked about it or mentioned it at all, and it's something that I'm just learning right now in my externship is that there are ways to enforce it at the border and working with border services and stuff like
Kristyn Webb (10:56):
That.
Nayeli Diaz (10:57):
I don't think it's something that's talked about enough or that law students are aware is such a key aspect of all intellectual property rights, but specifically trademarks and copyrights.
Kristyn Webb (11:05):
Yeah, it's becoming more and more and more important as the goods markets develop too. Now you've got a lot of goods coming in through different platforms. Let's say Amazon things are coming in and they're sitting in a warehouse and then you've got drop shipping. Well, once it's on the marketplace and people are purchasing it, it's already in the warehouse. It's already across the border, and so doing just a takedown on Amazon's only going to do so much, you're playing whack-a-mole, but if you can keep the goods out of the US entirely, stop them at the border before they even get here, there's nothing to dropship. You've whacked the mole really hard then. So I think sort of expanding the approach beyond just, okay, well let's look at this and have a formulaic approach to design patent protection or copyright protection and to sort of approach it as, okay, now we're problem solving as attorneys, we're problem solvers. A client comes in and says, somebody's infringing my product. I'm losing money and my goodwill is being demolished out there in the marketplace. There's a lot of consumer confusion. You're problem solving saying, okay, what are the tools we have in the arsenal? And copyright is one of those. It can be a very powerful thing. I tell clients it's sort of like having a hammer. It's not always the best tool for the job, but sometimes a hammer can do a lot of things. Sometimes you do want that hammer. It's the quick, easiest thing to grab
Nayeli Diaz (12:40):
In an effort to demystify the life of a copyright litigator. Can you tell us a little bit about what a normal day looks like for you, a normal week, the kind of things that you're doing that people maybe wouldn't think about?
Kristyn Webb (12:54):
Yeah, it's hard to find a normal week. They're all so weird. You'll have conversations with potential clients. We have an issue on Amazon. You've got maybe the next day or the next hour you're talking to somebody about registration for their software and the generated outputs for the screen on the software, and sometimes you're talking to musicians. It's because copyright is so broad in the type of works that protects, you're talking to a lot of different kinds of people. I think in the litigation area, it can get even weirder because I think it was one week, it was last year, the year before where I had two cases going on at the same time, and one of them was a pornography case. It was an illegal download of pornography, which is its own copyright trolling arena. There's a whole industry not just in pornography, but in enforcing the copyright in it.
(14:02):
There's attorneys who just do that type of litigations. We had a client that had that and we were representing the accused, and I also had a case going on at the new copyright claims board that involved works for a cartoon show. It was a little cartoon dogs, and so I'm doing research at the same time and I've got my firm laptop and I've got my personal laptop and I'm like VPN's on. I do not want a data breach between looking up cartoon dogs and researching these pornography cases. Oh my god, if that data wall fails, if there's any leakage in, I'll be on every registry under the sun. So it can be a weird life. Sometimes you find yourself in some strange positions. I mean, I didn't think I would be making a living either watching pornography or watching cartoons and to do both at the same time. It was a weird time. It was a weird few weeks there.
Nayeli Diaz (15:12):
You talked a little bit earlier about how you did have a little bit of intellectual property experience before you went to law school, which I don't know if that's super common. I didn't. And then I realized afterwards that it was what I enjoyed doing. So what was your favorite part about copyright law or IP law when you started either before law school or what made you go into it and what do you think is your favorite part now?
Kristyn Webb (15:34):
What I really liked about it before law school was because I did a lot more on the patent side at that time, I really liked seeing the new technology. I liked seeing people's ideas before they're on Shark Tank. I liked that. I liked meeting the inventors and the creatives and seeing how they problem solve something. Having somebody come in and say, okay, here's my invention and here's how it works, and ask 'em, okay, well, trying to get a sense of what the prior is. Okay, well what are we doing right now? How is this new and novel and non-obvious? Have them say, oh, we're doing it this very, very old fashioned archaic way that hasn't changed in 300 years and this is totally revolutionary go. And it was so simple and elegant. I think, why didn't I come up with that? It seems so natural.
(16:21):
That's how we should have been doing it the whole time. Having those kinds of experiences of watching how someone else's brilliant mind would work was great, and I still enjoy that. I don't do so much patent on the patent side. I mostly copyright and then trademark and litigation, but one thing that really has carried over that I enjoyed before law school and now was people's IP is going to outlive them, especially copper. It's good for life of the author plus 70 years. This is someone's legacy. This is their mark on the world. This is their claim of immortality and protecting that, preserving it for this future gener generations and for posterity. That's very rewarding.
Nayeli Diaz (17:06):
That's so beautiful, and I feel like that's not something that we talk about enough. We talk in class about this is how long this lasts and this is how long this lasts. But I think what I've learned from working a little bit in copyrights and trademarks is that a lot more of it that I think a lot of boutique firms have to deal with or tend to deal with on a daily basis is small businesses, family run businesses, and it's more like you're saying it's more than just, this is my asset that I want to protect, but this is what's left of my family. This is what they worked hard to make sure that we have control of, that they're proud of. And so it's not just litigating and protecting it for the sake of protecting that, right, but also taking care with these clients to acknowledge what it is that they're really trying to protect and work with them to do that.
Kristyn Webb (17:54):
And whether it's the fruit of their own mental labor or it's something that's been handed down that's precious to them. I mean, I think especially in copyright, because there is so much creativity that goes into the works, especially music and art of if you, there's a whole personality theory of copyright where the author is imparting part of their personality, and I think that's where moral rights kind of come from
(18:17):
Is that sort of theory and say, okay, well if that's part of their personality, when it's somebody that someone loves it and they've passed on, and then the new copyright owner is coming in saying, I've inherited this asset. It's not just an asset. It was somebody they cared about. And there's that little piece of them that still resides in that work and they don't want it to be misused or misappropriated. And so having that sensitivity sometimes with clients, it is an aspect that I don't think you talk about in law school really. There's the other side of that coin though too of sometimes, sometimes artists can be volatile, unpredictable, and a little kooky. That's what makes a great artists sometimes. So dealing with that aspect of it and see, okay, the work might be also very unhinged. Is this really art? I don't know, but if it's worth, if it means something to them, then it's worth protecting and if the law can protect it, then it should. And who are we to sit as our critics? Although I do all the time, very judgmental Virgo, I can't help it.
Nayeli Diaz (19:37):
Yeah, I always thought the moral rights theory was one of my favorite things to learn about and it's not something that we use a lot here, so we skimmed over it and I was like, no, no, no. I actually want to go back to that, but what do you think whether a trait that you have in yourself or a trait that you see in other copyright litigators is most beneficial or has been most beneficial for you in your career in being able to foster that?
Kristyn Webb (19:58):
I think I would say maybe having the interest in the people that make the copyright and not just the work itself or treat it as just an asset. Sometimes that's all. Sometimes they know this is just a piece of software where you just want to make a million dollars and go buy a private island. Sometimes that's the goal, but working with the people to understand what the work means to them and what it is they want to do with the work. What is the ultimate goal here? I think having that approach of working with the people and understanding the people behind the copyright, whether it's the author or the owner of it or the accused infringer or the actual fringe, understanding the why of it instead of just the what or the how. I think that's a good, that's a really helpful trait, having that, not just the intellectual curiosity about the law or the technology, but having the curiosity about the people themselves.
Todd Berger (21:03):
We'll be right back
Nayeli Diaz (21:12):
In terms of international copyrights and laws, and I think, again, going back to what I know we talk a lot in school about very regional things, but I think that copyright is something that spans across the globe and that you mentioned that there are some attorneys in your firm that are abroad and that you have experienced working abroad and lowering those laws and stuff. So why do you think it's important for copyright litigators, for copyright students to learn about what's going on abroad in their practice?
Kristyn Webb (21:42):
Well, I think AI has really brought that to the forefront. I mean, we're having this global conversation really about how to treat training data, how to treat the outputs, and we're watching different jurisdictions come to sometimes very different conclusions about both in real time. Right now there is no global consensus and there is no international treaty, and we're watching some national laws coming up, but a lot of them have been untested. So
(22:13):
We're watching the law develop with the technology in real time all, and we're living in such a connected world that we're all grappling with it and we all know it. We can all keep track of, okay, who's doing what in which part of the world? I think since the pandemic too, because it pushed so much stuff online, so now there's so much more opportunity for collaboration across borders and different jurisdictions. And when someone's making creative works like say music, they may have a producer sitting in a studio in California, you've got a singer in New York, you've got a sound effects engineer sitting and Hungary, and so you've got subsistence happening across different jurisdictions and understanding, okay, what are the defaults? What are the laws in those regions that I need to be aware of so that I can advise the client, okay, do we need to get an assignment?
(23:14):
Do we need to take a look at the employment agreements? What is the default in those areas? Because when you're looking at authorship and ownership, you're looking at or even subsistence in the first place, you're looking at where it was made. That's still jurisdictionally tied to that area. I'm not sure I explained that part very well. I was a little red-legged, but I guess to try to summarize it, it used to be that you needed some knowledge that there might be differences just because infringement was a global thing when the advent of the internet now infringements going on all over the place, all over the world, but now you have subsistence happening in different areas and you've got these collaborative works that are taking place across boundaries. And so now it's more important than ever to understand those national laws, not just from the infringement standpoint, but also from that subsistence standpoint.
Nayeli Diaz (24:16):
Yeah, that's a good point that the internet itself has just changed so much. Case law made everything so much more interconnected and the need to understand what's happening in different parts of the world I think is always important in the law and maybe something that, I don't know if maybe all areas of the law have to do that as much, but I think certainly French intellectual property, you have to know what's going on in different parts of the world because the internet, your artwork can be made here and seen there or made there and the person is from here. There's so many parts of it that connect. And so for copyright, what are some resources or some things that you would recommend law students do that are interested in copyright? What can they do now to either expand their knowledge base or be more connected?
Kristyn Webb (25:03):
Well, the copyright office has some great resources for free on the website. I mean, they are very accessible videos and circulars. They really break things down into very plain language. That's something the copyright office is extremely good at is explaining some very difficult legal concepts in a very plain language kind of way. So those are excellent resources and they're coming out with new resources all the time to new videos, new little toolkits. I would stay on top of that and be checking in here and there to see what else they've come out with. Something else I could do to get practical experience with the new copyright claims board that rolled out a few years ago, there is this place in the statute to allow for law school clinics for law students to practice through the law school clinic to represent parties at the claims board.
(26:01):
And that's a really good way to get practical copyright experience all around because it is not a lawsuit in federal district court, but it is an alternative. It is still litigation experience. You still need to know the basics of putting together a claim that's going to pass muster. If not, you need to amend the claim. You need to know what evidence to put together, and there's very simplified discovery that goes on. So it is a good opportunity to sort of get some of those basics in and to help real people who otherwise wouldn't have access to two legal remedies.
Nayeli Diaz (26:43):
As we're wrapping up our time here together, is there anything else that you would like to leave our listeners with, anybody who is interested in this kind of work that you think that they should know or that they should hold onto going forward? Either first years or third years or anybody in between?
Kristyn Webb (26:59):
For everybody that we're looking at law school all the way up through law school who are even into practice at this point who wanted to get into intellectual property and particularly copyright, it can be a difficult field to break into. It just always kind of has been, and that might not change. I think it's changing a bit. I've seen it change a bit of the job postings and with what firms are looking for. I would say don't be discouraged. You do need to have a job, prevent the resume gap, be out there practicing and it can be hard to find the right fit at the right time. And sometimes it feels like those opportunities are so few and far between or the odds are just not in your favor. And I would say just don't be too discouraged. The opportunity might not be when you're ready for it or when you want it, when you're looking for it, it may come up at some point, so don't be too discouraged and keep your eyes open and if it's something you really want to do, then by God, don't let anything stop you.
(28:06):
Keep looking for those opportunities to get in and have a way of explaining what you've been doing in the meantime. For me, even having a background in IP before law school and writing and publishing articles that were on IP through law school, I still found it was difficult to find a job in IP coming right out of law school. And I ended up clerking for a while and I loved it. I mean, it was amazing time. I wouldn't trade it in for anything, but it wasn't ip. And eventually the right fit did come along and when I went to the interview, I was able to say, okay, I haven't been doing ip, but here's what I've been doing. Instead, I've been clerking. I have been learning a lot about different other different types of law, other different areas of law, and I've had to become an expert on these areas really quickly. So what I don't know about ip, I can learn it because really good at learning things very, very quickly. So to be able to have a way of taking those side quests and using it to your advantage in the interview process or in the cover letters or whatever, try to think of it that way and just don't be too discouraged. Just stick with it. If you really want to do it, by God, you'll do it.
Nayeli Diaz (29:23):
Well, thank you so much. That's all very helpful and I am certainly going to be keeping it all in mind. Thank you for your time.
Kristyn Webb (29:29):
Yes, thank you for having me. It was great being here.
Todd Berger (29:33):
We'll be right back after this great interview. A lot of really interesting information. And I know we have Eve here, Eve, you actually have a background in the arts. Was there anything about this interview that as someone who comes from that world really jumped out at you?
Eve Albert (29:56):
Yeah, absolutely. I was a dancer for several years. I did competition dance growing up and I danced at my undergrad institution. So it didn't occur to me before listening to this interview that so many things could be copyrighted. Copywritten,
Todd Berger (30:14):
One of them,
Eve Albert (30:15):
One of 'em. I don't know. I am not very familiar with this area of law, which is why I thought this interview was so great. But I think that it was a very interesting perspective to take on that so many things can be copyrighted and
Todd Berger (30:36):
Or written
Eve Albert (30:37):
Or written
Todd Berger (30:38):
Or written. We're not depending on one of them.
Eve Albert (30:42):
Somebody's going to watch. Somebody at home is watching this episode being like, how dare they? Anyways,
Todd Berger (30:48):
They can put it in the notes and let us know or the comments. The comments I guess. Yes,
Eve Albert (30:52):
Let us know. Let us know. But yeah, no, I think that the one thing I did appreciate about what Kristyn was saying was that there are so many different areas of soft IP and different things that copywriting is applicable to. I didn't even think about dance as being one of those, but I think that it just kind of goes to show what you guys were talking about in the episode. There's a lot of different ways you can go with this. There's a lot of different areas that you'll come across if this is the career path you decide to go after. So I thought that it was really interesting. I learned a lot listening to this episode.
Todd Berger (31:30):
Yeah, I did as well. And obviously you had this initial interest in talking to Kristyn. Did you learn anything about talking to her that you didn't know before that you think is important for our listeners to take note of?
Nayeli Diaz (31:45):
What stuck out to me that she said was about the human element of it, and I think that sometimes most of the other ips can maybe seem a little bit clinical, but I think that in every practice it is important to remember that there is a person at the end of whatever case you're dealing with, even if it seems like you're working for a corporation. And so when she talked about one of her strengths as a copyright litigator, being able to understand the client and what's at the root of their need, I thought that was really interesting and something that to me has always stuck out and something that I tend to strive for. So it was nice to get that confirmation with her. That is something that is really important to remember when we're going into the workforce and we're dealing with cases that even in something that it may not seem as emotional, like copyright, it is still someone's legacy. Like she said, that's someone's family, that's work. And an artist. I have a theater degree, so I've been around a lot of artists. I've written a lot of stuff myself and knowing that when you create art and you create any kind of work, you do put a little bit of yourself into it. And so you want to protect that for that reason. And we were talking to those clients knowing that kind of stuff. I thought that was really beautifully put.
Todd Berger (33:02):
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's one thing you can't stress enough, and it happens across industries, not just in the world of copyright, but when you're in law school, sometimes you spend the first couple of years you're just learning cases and doctrines and a new way of thinking and issue rule and application and conclusion, and it's all hypothetical and you're doing it on your exams and you're trying to master that and you kind of just lose track of the human aspect of these things, which is that the practice of law is not just about the hypothetical questions on the exams. The practice of law is about the actual people who you are representing, who you have a fiduciary interest in representing and their hopes and dreams, fears, anxieties, desires. So I think it's great to hear smooth practicing not lose sight of that and reemphasize that. And I think sometimes for students, there's this process you go through in law school where you're reacclimating how you look at the world, and some students feel a sense of discomfort. Well doesn't seem like we're talking about people that often everything seems to be about the doctrine or who can we sue for what or how does this rule work? And there really is a human element to it. I thought Kristyn really emphasized that and I think that was great to hear.
Eve Albert (34:18):
That also was something that really surprised me listening to the episode because as I said, I don't have that much experience with soft ip. I didn't have experience with much IP before last week's episode. I think the back to back IP episodes are kind of showing our favoritism, but I think that it's very interesting from a surface level for someone that isn't experienced in the area, it seems like copywriting and IP in general would be favoring businesses and more tending towards big corporations or companies. So I think that it was really eyeopening to see how this area of law can be super beneficial to individual people and small businesses. And so I really appreciated that about what Kristyn had to say
Nayeli Diaz (35:11):
To your comment, Todd, about students maybe not thinking about that as much in law school. Kristyn mentioned at the end that there are clinics that in certain schools that may deal with a little bit of intellectual property. I think clinics in general really are just such a good way to remind law students in every area of practice that, like you said, it's more than just the books and the rules, it's how they apply to real people. And so just the mention clinics, shout out to clinics, they're a great way to get that kind of experience and to ground everything for a student.
Todd Berger (35:43):
Yeah, absolutely. I think those kinds of clinics, I know there's some schools have an independent film clinic or might have a clinic that focuses on artists. The one thing we're talking about these corporations is there's billions of dollars behind some of these intellectual property enterprises, but there's a lot of people, like you said, who are out there who are struggling artists and they need legal assistance as well. And I know that beyond clinics, there's also some like pro bono or low bono organizations that help artists. So you can work in this soft ip. And so there's definitely areas that you can explore, which I think which is great. And one thing sometimes students think, and we've had this discussion with different times, other episodes, is like you think you're going to do entertainment law and then you start to get in entertainment law, you realize it's just a version of contracts to a certain extent.
(36:37):
It's just like, wait a minute, I don't get to go to the premiere. But I think that she talked directly about working with artists. Now she did say some artists can be difficult. So that is something thing about because the people, like you said, they have their passions, but this is a way the kind of area practice you identified as a way to go out there. I think to help artists who need it and to be really engaged with the art itself, then you can find a real fulfilling and meaningful kind of practice to sort of marries different interests together, interest in practicing your interest in art, music, writing, dance. We just learned dance even though you're still at the same time practicing law.
Eve Albert (37:19):
I do want to mention, and I want to know what your guys' opinion about this is. As I was listening to Kristyn talk, I kind of got the sense that because she was talking about her respect for creativity and her working directly with people, her interest in protecting their property and just from the way she was talking, I got a sense that there's a certain personality that could be best suited or better suited for this area. I mean, Christian was hilarious. First of all, I was cracking up listening to this episode, but what do you guys think about that? Did you pick up on that as well? Do you think that there's certain areas of law that certain personalities better reflect?
Nayeli Diaz (37:59):
It's funny, yeah, when I met her I thought we were very similar and I've been pursuing a lot of stuff in cover and trade work law, and it does seem to me that it's a lot of people like myself with an arts background and some kind of, how should I say, people who like to talk to people, people who are curious, people who creativity and figuring out how things work. I think she mentioned that a little bit. What was interesting to her is learning how things work and learning how people come up with things. And that's certainly been an entry point for me into this as well, that I like creativity and I seeing what people are coming up with and how they do that. So I think that it does benefit a certain type of personality to pursue this kind of stuff.
Todd Berger (38:43):
Yeah, I think just generally speaking, it's certain people who are probably driven to, I'm going to make money, and they're kind of figuring out what area law to practice. It's like they don't care what it is, it's just they're going to make money. And I guess that's one personality type. Then there's certain people who are maybe politically more motivated or ideological and they may gravitate towards different kinds of work. I think that's possible. I think there are people like Kristyn who you're saying the beginning part episode, I just needed a job and I think there's probably people like that. It's one thing leads to another, it leads to another, and they develop a certain kind of expertise and before it they're an IP lawyer or they have some specialty in whatever it might be, getting people out of timeshares or something like who knows. And then I will say this though, for whatever it's worth, I don't know if this is my hot take or not, but I think you can kind of see it in this kind of area.
(39:38):
I do think there's something about people who decide to be lawyers that it is like you may have a passion for something, but you also are inherently practical about it, which is why you decided to be a lawyer. So it's like you knew I have this degree, worst case scenario, I can go do something with it and I can support myself. So there's always that cliche about artists like the starving artist, how hard it is to make it, which is a reason why I think some people have an artistic passion and they choose not to pursue it. So this is a way that I think you can connect with your artistic side and kind of working in the soft IP space, but actually maybe you have the personality type where you like to eat. And so it's a practical way to do it as well. And that's a big part of why people go to law school, and I think that makes perfect sense. It's part of the utility of the degree, so this is a great way to have something that you can use to support yourself and at the same time pursue something that you're connected with and have a passion.
Eve Albert (40:36):
No, that's actually so real. I feel like a lot of people are, they go into law school with the mindset of, oh, I want to help people, or I want to make change, or I want to change laws, and that's all fine and great, but there's a good majority of us that just want a practical career path and being able to help people and using our intellect and all the other things that come with practicing the law is just an extra perk. But the practicality of it is so true. That's not a hot take at all, Todd.
Todd Berger (41:09):
Well, thank you. I'm glad I didn't go out on a limb with that. I didn't think so, but I didn't want to insult people. Sometimes people are like, no, this is all about my passion. How dare you insinuate that I'd like to pay my mortgage or whatever. It got God. But at the same time, also, this is not just return to the point I was making. I hope our listeners understand this. I think there's probably a lot of people out there who are doing this. There are ways in which you can pursue the practical aspects of practicing law and at the same time do the things that you really feel strongly about, that you love, that you connect with. You got to find ways to use your degree to find both financial fulfillment and that broader, I'm happy and intellectually engaged with what I'm doing, and that's kind of the sweet spot. So I think that's true in general. And here we had a guest who seemed to kind of figure that out.
(42:01):
Once again, thanks to our guest, Kristyn Webb for joining us for this episode. If you're looking for even more content curated just for you, head over to the ABA Law Student Division website and become a member. We want to make sure we're making the best content for you. Let us know what you'd like to learn more about by telling us in a review on Apple Podcast or Spotify. Finally, we'd like to thank our production partners at Moraine Media and to thank the a law student division for making this show a reality. We'll be back next month with our next episode. See you.