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Welcome to The Overflow—the bonus round of faith and real-life conversation with Brandon and Susan Thomas. Every week, they unpack the powerful insights, behind-the-scenes experiences, and personal reflections that didn’t quite fit into Sunday’s sermon.
This is where the conversation gets practical, honest, and a little bit unscripted. Whether it's an encouraging word, a deeper dive into Scripture, or a hilarious moment from their week, Brandon and Susan bring fresh perspective and spiritual fuel to keep you going.
It’s real talk, fresh takes, and full hearts.
These are the conversations too good to cut and too real to miss.
Welcome to the overflow with Brandon and Susan. And today, I wanna talk to you about a money truth that has changed our marriage. I wanna talk about a money truth that changes lives. And and I'll go so far as to say this. If you embrace this money truth, it is a force multiplier in your life.
Speaker 1:And if you reject this money truth, we have seen and again, we're talking twenty years of pastoring and over thirty years in the ministry, if you reject this money truth, it is a profound lid on your life.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:I don't just speak from the truth of the word of God. I speak from experience.
Speaker 2:Yes. Yes. Absolutely. And this is something that we have seen in our own family. And as we talk about this in this conversation today, what we're really talking about is God's design for your life.
Speaker 2:And something I decided early in my young adult years when I returned to God and just surrendered my all to him was, God, my way, it doesn't work so great. I wanna I wanna know your way. I wanna follow you in your way. And the reality is on the other side of that surrender, God's way is the best way. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:God's design is always the way that we thrive in life, and it's every category in life. We talk about so many different topics, whether it's sex, whether it's communication, whether it's marriage, whether it's parenting, and whether it's our bodies and our food and what we eat and consume and how we drink. All these things are topics. But today, finances.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Money. What is God's design for money?
Speaker 1:And he has specifically, okay, because he has a, this is a massive category. Right. Dave Ramsey has made his life going through God's design for money and all that. That's his life message. But for us, we're specifically talking about generosity and obedience.
Speaker 1:Yes. We're talking about sacrifice, generosity, and obedience. Yes. And hitting the nail. Before we get into God's, well, before we get into God's design, let me just be very clear.
Speaker 1:We're gonna talk about the tithe. The tithe is surprisingly controversial these days. This is something that it's it's kind of a new
Speaker 2:But then is it surprising?
Speaker 1:It's not surprising.
Speaker 2:Money has such a hold on us as people, it honestly comes in different surprising packaging. Yeah. But the the root is as old as time.
Speaker 1:There's two pockets of giving that we teach. Yes. And the two pockets of giving that we teach is the pocket number one is the obedient pocket, the tithe. Pocket number two is the sacrificial pocket, and that is a sacrificial giving. That's above and beyond the tithe.
Speaker 1:Yes. This has become a bit controversial because some teach that the New Testament, in the New Testament, the tithe was abolished as part of the old covenant, and that now in the new covenant, that's not God's design, and the teaching goes something like this, that kind of like the food restrictions, the food laws were gone because Peter got a big vision, you know? He got a big vision, and God was saying, I'm moving beyond the food laws. They've been fulfilled in Christ. They would say, well, the tithe went away with the sacrificial system.
Speaker 1:The tithe went away with Peter's vision, like the food laws, and now you don't have the tithe. Now here here's where it gets important. Yet Jesus talked about money a lot. Jesus talked about money all the time. He talked about treasure and property and all those things.
Speaker 1:Also, see Paul talking about giving a lot, and so you see it making its way into the New Testament. You have stories of people who experience the judgment of God because they did not do what he asked of them regarding the area of finances. So this is not something to be messed with. This, you better know where you're at. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I would say if you believe that the tithe went away with the sacrificial system, here's what you're left with, then you would believe that the 10% would be the bare minimum because there's no model in scripture in the New Testament of below 10%. You have above 10%, you have extraordinary amounts above 10%, but you don't have below 10%. And so this is an important teaching. I think it's important for us to deal with that question about is the tithe even in existence today. Most of the time when I've found people saying, oh, they teach the tithe, they'll even go so far, Susan, as to say, if you're teaching the tithe, that's spiritual abuse.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:Okay? Got it. What I found is behind that criticism is usually people that don't give it all.
Speaker 2:Well, and I believe, I mean, gonna take another giant leap, but I believe that would be the same message that the transgender community would say of the church, that because we believe God created one male, one female, that that's spiritual abuse to state that kind of language. Yes. And what we're really talking about, with all the love in our heart, we are two people who just want to know, God, what is your design?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Help us live it, first of all. Like, that's the thing.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:We don't wanna preach anything that we aren't living. Amen. Because we're not interested in being fake. This isn't some inauthentic thing we've got going here. God has changed our life.
Speaker 2:Jesus has changed my life. Yeah. And we wanna tell others, and that freedom comes in so many forms, including the money.
Speaker 1:You know, and and we don't we don't teach what we're not practicing Yeah. And things that God is stretching us in. Mhmm. And from day one, we have been practicing not only the tithe, but the above and beyond pocket of giving as well. And that's a part of our life.
Speaker 1:The tithe is the first thing we give. We're very careful to do that. And even sometimes, keeping it real, we'll say, hey, okay, so this income came this way. Did we ever tithe on that? And we're making, you know, if it's kind of like over here, not part of normal.
Speaker 1:And we're just so serious about it. Yes. And that heart of I wanna be right with God. I don't wanna touch, we'll get to the theology, but I don't wanna touch what is God's. And then when it comes to the sacrificial gift, man, it's been a wonderful matter of prayer and stretching for us, and we've been amazed at what we've been able to do sacrificially.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely. And for you listening, if you may be asking the question or a little unclear on what exactly is the tithe, that that word tithe in the Hebrew, and then again, you see it in the New Testament, tithe means tenth. Yep. That's the meaning of the word, tenth. And the easiest way I can explain it that I can understand it is that God, because every good gift belongs to God and God is a good father and he gives gifts to his children, and he gives gift to the lost and saved alike.
Speaker 2:It's just whether they acknowledge where the gift is coming from. He gives the gift to finances, and so every dollar that God gives to me is God's. Yes. And in his design, God says, I'm gonna allow you to keep 90¢ of that dollar. You get 90% of that $1 bill, the other 10% is mine.
Speaker 2:And so the tithe is that act of faith and trust saying, God, I'm not gonna hold on to the 10% that belongs to you.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:That belong it all belong to you. And in your goodness, God, you're allowing me to keep 90. And I've often thought to myself, why would God even create this system in the in the first place? But it makes so much sense when you understand the dynamic of the human soul in our story, how we we stole from God in the garden when we took the apple, the fruit, really, whatever the fruit was. We took that bite of that fruit that was not from the tree that we were given.
Speaker 2:We stole then, and it's a pattern of our heart to take what's not what doesn't belong to us Yep. And that belongs to God. And so God, because he chose not to make us robots, but to make us people with choice, that we could choose to be in relationship with him or not, This is one of the big ways, tangible ways that throughout a person's lifetime, God gives us the opportunity to choose. Am I going to continue to honor God with what is his and what is mine? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Mine being a gift from him.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And so it it's a it's a huge leap and act of faith. It's one of the many, but it's a big one.
Speaker 1:It's a statement of authority. Yes. Just like in the garden, God had one tree that was his. He didn't need that tree, and God doesn't need your tent.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:God doesn't need the first tent. But God, in his design, said, I have a tree I don't want you to touch. And it was a statement of authority, and it was pointing to Christ. The Bible says that Jesus is his firstborn. God did not give us the least or the last.
Speaker 1:God gave us the best, That's right. The And that is the model for us that we are to follow in that as God had a tree in the garden that was his authority structure, what do we do? We went right for it.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 1:And that's what we do today. We go right for it. And it's a, ultimately, the deepest root is putting your hands on things God has not given you, but also it is a rejection of his authority in your life. Yeah. Finally, what we're gonna go and dive into today is you'll see that to follow God's design is blessing.
Speaker 1:To reject God's design is cursing.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Okay? And this is not an investment. This is not how we invest. This is obedience, the tithe is, and we'll talk about the sacrifice in just a moment. But let me cast a vision.
Speaker 1:In Malachi chapter three, in the Old Testament, we have, and we'll talk about the New Testament in a moment.
Speaker 2:Which can I say? I love this verse. Oh, This It whole me. It helped me so much when I was in those young, early years.
Speaker 1:It's incredible. Malachi three says, I will rebuke the devourer for you so that it will not destroy the fruits of your soil, and your vine in the field shall not fail to bear, says the Lord of hosts. Then all the nations will call you blessed, for you will be a land of delight, says the Lord of hosts. That's God's desire and design for us. He wants to make our lives into a land of delight.
Speaker 1:So then he says in verse 10, right before that, okay, so that's the goal. Well, what did he just get through saying that unlocked that good land? He says, Put me to the test. Says the Lord of hosts, If I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you a blessing until there is no more need, I will rebuke the devourer for you. So he's saying here, hey, test me, okay?
Speaker 1:So what is he asking us to test? And again, in verse 10, right before that, I'm kinda Going backwards. Climbing upwards, You're be backwards. Verse 10. So remember we read verse 11?
Speaker 1:Hey, I want your land to be a good land. I want you to be a land of delight. Then it was like, Hey, put me to the test. And now what's going on here? It starts with verse 10.
Speaker 1:Bring the full tithe into the storehouse, that there will be food in my house, and thereby put me to the test, says the Lord of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you, and on and on and on, and make you a land of delight. Verse 12, it says, this is God's promise that your life can look like a good life, but one of the keys, and I'm sorry, this is the way God designed it. I'm not as I'm not sorry. I'm not apologizing for God's design. But the way he designed it, bring the full tithe to his storehouse, okay?
Speaker 1:And he chose the word tithe, the full 10% to the storehouse. So the full tithe, let's talk about that. So it's the first and the best. I've called it the first and 10. I love that phrase.
Speaker 1:It's because I love football. It's the first, and it's the 10.
Speaker 2:Meaning the first salary that you make, 10% of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's the first 10% of all the salary you make. You don't
Speaker 2:pay all your bills first and then tithe is, I'm tithing.
Speaker 1:It's not the least and the last. It's not leftover. It's first and 10%. If I have a job and I have a salary, I give the first 10%. If I get a bonus, it's the first 10%.
Speaker 1:You say, well, what if I put all that bonus into savings and I'm not living on it? No, you earn that no matter how you chose to invest it, gain interest on it, whatever, you put the first 10%. You say, well, okay, well, I'm doing a deal, dah, dah, dah. Well, how are you living? You know, if you're just going from one deal to the next deal to the next deal, I had this conversation with someone recently.
Speaker 1:He said, You know, God's really convicted me because I'll live in debt while I'm doing a deal, and then I'll do the deal, but then I'll just put the money back into the next deal, and then I'll wake up, and I haven't given God anything. I paid off the debt, but then I went in, and it's like, he said, You know what? I'm realizing that I have unconventional income, but I'm living on something, and I haven't paid God his 10%. I haven't given God. I thought that was very, very powerful and humble of him.
Speaker 1:And so you gotta really evaluate what you're seeing, whether you are bonus, sell a business, start, you know, you have unconventional finance, or you're a regular salary person. You work hourly, and one of the joys that we've experienced was seeing our kids whenever they get their first job, and all of a sudden, you know, we're on all their stuff when they're young, and so we'll get the notification that, you know, dollars 10 was given to Keystone Church. And I'm like, oh, that was one of our kids that got their paycheck.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And the reason that we love that is because it's an indication of their faith. Yes. It's not just that, you know, it's people get funny when you talk about money. This is what you hear.
Speaker 2:Right? And it's true because anytime that we touch, we being the proverbial whoever, touches on an idol in the heart of a culture or in the heart of a person, there's a reaction. Yep. There's a resistance. In fact, if you've made it this far into this podcast, hats off.
Speaker 2:Well done you. Well
Speaker 1:done you.
Speaker 2:People will pass over based on the title alone.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Right? But there's freedom for us there. And because, again, this is about believing God, taking him at his word in every area of life. And so when we see our kids take a tangible step to follow God, it thrills our heart beyond words.
Speaker 1:So the tithe, bringing the first 10%, it unlocks overwhelming blessing. Yes. That's what we just read. It unlocks overwhelming blessing. Luke twelve thirty four, the Bible says, where your treasure is, this is what you're talking about, Where your treasure is, there your heart will also be.
Speaker 1:If you, if I preach at Keystone, and I preach God's designed for marriage, man, woman, marriage, we clap. I preach gender. There's two genders. God made them male and female. He made them.
Speaker 1:We clap. Yet I go, and God said bring the full tithe to the storehouse. Crickets. And it's crickets? We've identified the idol.
Speaker 1:The idol wasn't sex, the idol wasn't those gender, that wasn't your temptation. Your struggle is, can I bring God the first and the best? Right. And I identify that as Jesus, here, Where your treasure is, there your heart will also be. So bring the full tithe.
Speaker 1:It's the first intent. It's the first and best. And in Malachi chapter one, verse six, so a couple of chapters earlier, this wasn't just a one little bitty verse. Look at this. He says, how have we despised your name?
Speaker 1:And he said, how have we despised your name? How have we stolen from you? And he says, you have bring the full tithe to the house. And so he literally calls it stealing in the Bible. That it is stealing from me, that you have not brought to me what I've asked of you.
Speaker 1:You put your hands on a portion that was mine. Now, man, when something is described as stealing
Speaker 2:It's a gut punch.
Speaker 1:That isn't I mean, it says Malachi three eight, should people cheat God? Yet you have cheated me. But you ask, what do you mean? When do we ever cheat you? You've cheated me of the tithes and the offerings that's above that.
Speaker 1:So tithe, obedience, offering sacrifice, you've cheated me of the tithes and the offerings due to me. And man, it is just so clear.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. I'd love to speak to this Malachi chapter three. So in my journey, again, following God, early on in my life, I ran away for a while. And then when I came back to him and by the time we were married, you know, I was passionately desiring the Lord before we got married.
Speaker 2:And when we got married, we were faced with the question, okay, oh, well, we relied on our parents all these years. Now we're young adults, brand new married. What do we do with our finances? And I just wanna read again what you've already read, but just kinda give my own commentary on it.
Speaker 1:To be clear, before we were married, we both had jobs and we were both tithing.
Speaker 2:Correct. Yeah. But it was coming We
Speaker 1:had to come together and say, this is what we're doing.
Speaker 2:Exactly. As a union, as a couple, okay, what are we doing That's absolutely true. But I'm gonna read it again just because this this passage really hit me, and I've seen it play out in patterns in people's lives. It's just in powerful ways. So Malachi three again, it says, but you ask, how can we return when we've never gone away?
Speaker 2:Because God's like, y'all y'all left me. Should people cheat God? Yet you have cheated me, the Lord said. But you ask, what do you mean? When did we ever cheat you?
Speaker 2:You have cheated me, and that's one translation. Others say stolen. You have cheated me of the tithes and offerings due to me. And then he says, you are under a curse for your whole nation has been cheating me. Bring all the tithes into the storehouse so there will be enough food in my temple.
Speaker 2:If you do, says the lord of heaven's armies, I will open the windows of heaven for you. I will pour out blessings so great you won't have enough room to take it in. Try it. Put me to the test. So as I read that, I am seeing two life paths.
Speaker 2:One is cursed. One is blessed. Yep. That is what the bible says. And I have to make a side note here because we just have to with the audience that might be listening and just everybody, we all come from different backgrounds and traditions of church.
Speaker 2:Maybe church is brand new for you. But you and I did not grow up in what some might call a prosperity gospel mindset, where, you know, if you just pray for it, if you follow God, if you give to God, you'll just be rich. I mean, you'll whatever you ask for. Will, I mean,
Speaker 1:Wealth have better is the sign that you're loving God.
Speaker 2:Wealth is the sign that you're loving God. Okay. And so we did not grow up in that, and I would say we do not believe that. Right. We do not believe that.
Speaker 1:We also do not believe in a poverty gospel
Speaker 2:Correct.
Speaker 1:That says poverty is the sign that you love Jesus.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:That anointed by God.
Speaker 2:Yes. These these labels of what it looks like to follow God. What we believe is I just believe what he wrote, that follow my design, you're going to be blessed. Don't follow this design, you're going to be cursed. And the reality is is that blessings come in many, many forms Yeah.
Speaker 2:But so does cursing. Yep. Another word another word for cursing is death. I say this often. The bible talks about how sin always always leads to death, and we just think, oh, physical death.
Speaker 2:Well, obviously, no. I mean, yes, physical death, but there's so many forms. Forms of relational death, of of, yes, financial death, of mental peace death. There's just body your body being death. Sick.
Speaker 2:Oh, no. Kid. Yes. So many forms of death. And so when I read this regarding God's design for me with my money, I see two paths.
Speaker 2:One leads to life. One leads to death. One leads to blessing. One leads to cursing. And with the blessing, he says I love this.
Speaker 2:He says, test me. Test me in this. I don't know that there's anywhere else in scripture where God says that.
Speaker 1:It's clear.
Speaker 2:I don't think there's anywhere else. Yep. In fact, most of the time in scripture, he says, do not test the Lord your God. Yeah. But here he says, test me.
Speaker 2:Yep. I welcome it. Test me, try it, and see what happens. And he says this, your crops will be abundant, for I will guard them from insects and disease. This is so specific.
Speaker 2:Like, literally, there will be incidents as you follow God's design where he will protect us from some otherwise bad things that might happen.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:That's that's real. It's a promise that he makes. Your grapes will not fall far from the vine before they are ripe, says the Lord of heaven's armies. The nations will call you blessed, the land of delight.
Speaker 1:And we've said this a million times, I'd rather live on 90% blessed than 100% on my own and cursed. That's what it says, and cursed.
Speaker 2:Well, and when we were young and made that decision together as a couple, we're like, what are we gonna do? I mean, this is just raw. And again, it's everybody's personal journey. We're just telling you ours. I remember in that little one bedroom apartment praying and thinking about it.
Speaker 2:Our question was, okay. We're gonna tithe as a married couple. Do we do before taxes? Do we do after taxes? And we made the decision to do it.
Speaker 2:Wait. How do I say it right? Before taxes is the main amount. Not not a CPA, everyone.
Speaker 1:We're on the gross, not the net.
Speaker 2:Okay, that part. Yeah. But we made that decision.
Speaker 1:I didn't know what you're trying to say.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we made that decision Yeah,
Speaker 1:before taxes.
Speaker 2:Okay, thank you. Before taxes is the amount. But the point is, it's everyone's personal journey, but I also think just examine your heart. It's kinda like with God's design for sex. Often at camp, student camps, teenagers will put it right in the question of how far is too far, when the real question is, where's your heart?
Speaker 2:That's so good. Like, let's not draw a line in the sand of You're how not
Speaker 1:looking for
Speaker 2:Can I get
Speaker 1:When have I How close can I get before I'm sinning? Yes. That's the wrong heart you're already sinning.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Like, I wanna do everything How much
Speaker 1:can I have and I'm still doing the tithe? Yeah. Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2:I just want to trust you, God. Yeah. I wanna trust you with it all. I I'm taking you at your test. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:I'm putting you to the test, and I'm taking you at your word.
Speaker 1:So good. 500 plus verses in the Bible concerning prayer. There's nearly 500 verses. Yeah, hang with me.
Speaker 2:I'm with you. Okay,
Speaker 1:There's 500 verses in the Bible concerning prayer. There's nearly 500 verses concerning faith.
Speaker 2:Got it.
Speaker 1:And over 2,000 verses on money and possession. Jesus talked about money in 16 out of his 38 parables. Shh. Okay? And then he reaffirmed the tithe, and Matthew chapter 23, verse 23 said, What sorrow awaits you, teachers of religious law, and you Pharisees, hypocrites, for you are careful to tithe even the tiniest income from your herb gardens.
Speaker 1:Okay, so what he's saying here is, okay, so here you see unconventional income. They had coins then, but there's, he's saying even, you know, you're growing thing, the Pharisees would grow things, and anything that grow, they would tithe on it. Herbs that would grow, they would tithe. They'd bring some of the
Speaker 2:herbs. Here's my rosemary.
Speaker 1:Yeah, here's my rosemary. They were so serious about that, okay? They were so serious about the tithe, and they were so careful. So the Pharisees were doing the tithe, all right? His problem is not with them doing the tithe.
Speaker 1:His problem is they're ignoring other things. And this what he says, you ignore the more important aspects of the law, justice, mercy, and faith. And then here it is, you should tithe. Yes. Jesus Yeah, said
Speaker 2:New Testament.
Speaker 1:You should, he's not saying, why are you tithing? Stop tithing. He doesn't say that. Hey, focus on the poor, don't tithe. No, he's not saying that.
Speaker 1:He says, you should tithe. Yes, but do not neglect the more important things. This is important because Jesus here is identifying Tithing is not a gold medal in the Olympic sports of faith. Tithing is base, fundamental, very beginning of your walk with God element of walking with God, but don't ignore some of these other things that really are harder and carry more weight. This should not be hard.
Speaker 1:This should be simple, and here Jesus, for those that would say it's not in the New Testament, there's Jesus saying, You should tithe, yes. Yeah. He's affirming that. Then Paul, in one Corinthians 16, he, in my opinion, combines the tithe and offering, and he's saying, hey, set aside, set aside, just like you normally do. He's saying you give proportionally to what you make normally, but let's take a big collection as a special sacrificial gift for these Jewish Christians that are starving.
Speaker 1:The point I'm making is this is in the New Testament.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, and when you said that, two things that came to my mind. One is that the tithe is clearly not outdated. It's foundational, just in the following of Jesus. It's the one of the designs that he gives to us. But it's also tithing and giving to God is not paying off the mob boss.
Speaker 2:Right. So that you can get away with whatever.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And just live however you want. Right? That's not the relationship God is asking of us. He is saying, this is an act of obedience that you're following my design, but don't neglect these very important and even harder other elements of living life that I have created you to live.
Speaker 1:So let's say, say, Brandon, actually, I don't agree. I think the tithe went away, but I do see that it's in the new giving is in the New Testament and all of that. I see that, Brandon. But this is the difference between law and grace, okay? Well, let me just kinda give you an illustration.
Speaker 1:Let's say that I, we were in marriage trouble, we went to a counselor. Counselor said, hey, I mean, it's not deep, deep marriage trouble, but like we're just in a rough patch, and he says, hey, I want y'all to kiss once a week because we stop kissing, which is, that happens in marriages. He's, and the counselor, he or she says, I want you to kiss once a week, okay? So we kiss once a week, and through counseling and kissing, we start to have healing in our marriage, and we kiss once a week, kiss once a week, and the counselor every week would say, Hey, did y'all kiss this week? Hey, yeah, we kissed this week.
Speaker 1:And then a month later, Hey, did y'all kiss this week? We actually kissed three times this week. You know, we kissed once, and then we didn't even have to kiss more because the law said that we only kissed once a week, but we wanted to do more, okay? So one was obedience and the other is pleasure. It's relationship.
Speaker 1:Well, what if the counselor says, All right, guys, you know what? Y'all are at a place. I don't need to ask you any more about kissing. I'm removing that requirement. It's not a requirement anymore.
Speaker 1:Then will we look at each other and say, okay, let's go back to no kissing?
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:No, the point is, you got it. You don't need me to tell you to do that. Right. You don't need me, so if you don't believe that it's a new, I do believe, at the very least you would say, Well, I'm still gonna do it because it's a part of relationship with God, and I wanna honor the heart. See, there was a heart behind the Old Testament part of the tithe.
Speaker 1:If you believe that that's been absorbed by grace, then I would take you, you say, Well, it's like the sacrificial system. We don't do the sacrificial, but Paul said, May your bodies be a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable. So the sacrificial doesn't go away.
Speaker 2:Well, Jesus said, I did not come to abolish the law, but to
Speaker 1:fulfill To fulfill it. And so it doesn't go away. Giving doesn't go away. So if this is your out clause for you to say, Well, I bless my family, That's not tithing. Giving to God is tithing.
Speaker 1:And giving it at the storehouse, which would be where you gather to worship. That was their storehouse where they gathered to worship as a nation. It's where we gather. That is the storehouse.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And it it's a journey. It's a journey of faith. It's a journey for some people, it's just the knowledge first. If you I mean, we have to be taught these things.
Speaker 2:I was talking to someone recently, and they grew up in a home that didn't teach them anything about God's design for sexuality. So they didn't know. They just were living and doing things. And then later in life, as things were on fire in their soul and their life, they discovered God, met Jesus, and discovered his design and changed. Well, I believe that's true no matter what we're talking about.
Speaker 2:So if we're talking about giving, some people right now, this is actually educational for you. We urge you to go find out for yourself. Read the word of God for yourself and discover his design. But for others of you, there is a resistance. And that's, you know, that's a different conversation.
Speaker 2:We've all been there with certain things where it's like, god, I just don't don't want to give this, and I'm gonna create every argument to rationalize why I don't have to. Mhmm. But God's way is God's way, and I I liken it to and often use this in counseling with people with various issues because it just makes sense to me. The law of gravity. All right?
Speaker 2:The law of gravity. What goes up must come
Speaker 1:Down.
Speaker 2:Must come down. And we can get all emotional about that law. We can say that's a dumb law, that we're angry about that law, but and that we reject that law. But if you jump off a bridge, you're not going up. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You're not going up. You are going down, and it's not gonna be pretty. It's the law of gravity, which we're not emotional about. We just understand it. We live with it.
Speaker 2:Well, in the same way God created gravity, God has a design for giving. Yeah. It's the same, and what goes up will come down. We have to follow his design. Amen.
Speaker 2:There's two paths that he makes really clear.
Speaker 1:Luke chapter 16 says this, and I wanna talk about the the the second pocket of giving. Luke chapter 16 says this, if you are faithful in the little things this is Jesus talking. If you're faithful in the little things, you will be faithful in the large ones. But if you are dishonest in little things, you won't be honest with greater responsibilities. And if you are untrustworthy, this is Jesus, if you are untrustworthy about worldly wealth, who will trust you with the true riches of heaven?
Speaker 1:And if you are not faithful with other people's things, why should you be trusted with things of your own? No one can serve two masters, he says. For you will hate one, love the other, you will be devoted to one, and despise the other. You cannot serve God and be enslaved to money. So there is the obedience test of the tithe, but there's also the relational test, which and I think tithing is relational, but this is pure relational.
Speaker 1:That is the offering. He says what what did he say in Malachi three? He said, bring the whole tithe, and then he says, bring the tithes and offerings. That's what you haven't brought. You haven't brought the tithe and the offering.
Speaker 1:And so the tithes was his first 10%. The offering was something else. It was above and beyond. It was a sacrificial gift. That's why we teach two pockets of giving.
Speaker 1:One is faithful, obey. But what we've learned with years of tithing is, frankly, it gets built into your budget.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's like people with years of saving or years of investing into their retirement, you've already adjusted your lifestyle around the tenth. True. And so there's a part where people who've been tithing, I'm gonna say more than eighteen months, you've embraced it as part of your lifestyle, and it doesn't hurt like it used to hurt. You know, it doesn't, you're grateful, but it's a regular rhythm Yeah. Of your All right?
Speaker 1:And if you're like us, when we see how much we tied at the end of the year, when we get that report, we're like, oh man, that brings us great joy. Then every great church, and when we see this in the word of God, I mentioned it with Paul a moment ago, there are moments where it's sacrifice time. The first century church, they were in dire need. They needed to help one another. So in Acts chapter two, the Bible says they sold possessions, and they shared with one another because people couldn't get jobs because they were following Jesus.
Speaker 1:Kicked out of the market, disowned, so they sold what they had. Barnabas, the Bible teaches, sold a field and gave it. That's not a repeat, that's not a tithe. That's not a repeatable action. That was an offering.
Speaker 1:And then you have the story of Ananias and Sapphira, where Very they sad story. A very sad story, where they said, This is what I'm bringing as my big gift, and then they lied about it.
Speaker 2:They lied about it.
Speaker 1:And God struck them dead. Listen, you gotta keep it clear. Those voices out there, those voices out there that want to deceive you into believing that giving, you can do whatever you want, that's all, oh, this is spiritual abuse, There, it is literally from the enemy.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And the stakes are really, really high. We are, as a church, always pushing into that sacrificial vision. We say we will always have a vision worthy of sacrifice so that one day when you're in heaven and you're accountable to God for the life that you've lived, we want you to be able to look at your time at Keystone Church because you could choose to be anywhere. There are tons of churches that never ask for anything, but you were in a church that not only taught you to tithe, but you're in a church that had a vision so big it required more. And it was so advancing on the kingdom of God, advancing the kingdom of God that it required sacrifice.
Speaker 1:And the relational looks like this. Obedience is, I'm doing God what you've told me to do. Relational is we're holding hands, we're holding hands together, and we're saying, God, what are you asking us to do to make this vision come true? It could be a vision for campus. It could be a vision for expansion.
Speaker 1:It could be a vision to lift lids because we're turning people away. It could be a vision for global something. God, what are you asking us to do? One of the first visions we had was we just needed, we were renting a sound system, and we needed a sound system.
Speaker 2:And we needed a sound system.
Speaker 1:We needed $50,000 as a church, and we just said, Would you all just pray about it? And we uncovered something with the sacrificial gift. You don't need to pray if you need to tithe or not. You need to just obey. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But with the sacrificial gift, it's, hey, pray and ask God. And the Bible says each one should ask God in their heart, what should I do?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And the Bible also says give cheerfully. These are all sacrificial gifts. So we say no twisted arms.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:No pressure. We will only pressure you to follow God. Yeah. We will only pressure you to do what God asked you to do. And once God begins to speak to you, then the big prayer, God, would you give me courage to do what you're putting in my heart?
Speaker 1:So when we're in a journey together, as we're recording right now, our church is in one of those sacrificial journeys, what we've seen time and time again, that as a church, when we sacrifice, lives are changed.
Speaker 2:It's true.
Speaker 1:When we walk through the door God gave us to walk through, it expands the kingdom of God. And I just don't ever wanna be somebody that stops.
Speaker 2:No, I don't wanna stop because too many lives are at stake. There's too many stories left to be written by the Lord. And for whatever reason, God, since the beginning of time, he has chosen to work through his people. Even the Bible, he chose to breathe into the hearts of men who wrote with their pen. All of all of life, he just has chosen to use his people and use his bride and use his church to accomplish great things, to further the kingdom of God.
Speaker 2:He doesn't need us, he's chosen us. And so
Speaker 1:He wants to work through us.
Speaker 2:He does. And so when we give, that's one more way that we further the kingdom of God. We build his church, which is the greatest vehicle of the good news of the gospel in all of humanity, God's church. And to have the blessing to partner with him in that way is such a gift. And the fact that we get to put him to the test because he told us to and see the blessings play out in our lives in a myriad of different ways, so many different ways, not just financial, although it can be.
Speaker 2:We've heard so many stories of people who began tithing and then a check came in the mail, or they weren't sure how they were gonna tithe, and then a gift they weren't expecting came.
Speaker 1:Giving heard this miracles abound. Yes. And this is what I say every time. Anytime we preach, and we happily preach on tithing because it's God's design for you, like I would preach about marriage.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Every time we preach on this, people trust God for tithing that weren't tithing. Yeah. And every time, I get stories of miracles.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And what I say every time, you don't get the miracle story if you're not in the game. Get in the game, get on the field, trust them, see what happens, see what happens. So this is a huge topic, and I'm just so excited for people to embrace this with all of their hearts and to understand that ultimately, what's the object of my gift, the object of my gift, really tithing and offerings, I'm giving to God first.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:I'm not even necessarily, even though the church is the recipient, really, God should be the author of the vision that your church has, so you're really giving to God. That's the way we view it, is I'm giving to God. We'll talk about some of our church journey in another episode, but in our church journey, there've been times where, you know, we had some broken moments with the local church, and we walked away, and after we had given and given and given and sacrificed, and, you know, our attitude was, you know, I don't regret Not giving
Speaker 2:1p.
Speaker 1:Not 1p. Speak to it. I feel something on you, really.
Speaker 2:Just not 1p because, as you just said, when you give a tithe, when you give an offering, it is to God. It is to God. And there is no perfect church, and there are some churches where it's broken, and then there are some churches where it's it's really in a healthy place, and all of those things are separate episodes for podcasts. But the truth is, as the person just following God and taking him at his word, God, I'm giving it to you, and I'm gonna trust you with the outcome of how you use this seed in the ground that I have planted, that I have faithfully planted because you told me to plant it. And I'm not gonna own trying to inspect everyone and regret if it didn't go the way I thought it should go.
Speaker 2:I'm just gonna trust you, God. And that doesn't mean you don't be wise. Oh, we need to be wise.
Speaker 1:And partner with a church that has good policies, procedures, and patterns, and all of that, great accountability.
Speaker 2:Very important.
Speaker 1:Believe in that.
Speaker 2:Very important.
Speaker 1:But that should be before your giving. I mean, you should already have crossed that where you're like, man, I'm in a church I can trust. I'm in a church that I love.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Believe in the mission that's on this church, but it's a gift to God.
Speaker 1:And I just feel an unction to say this too, that when we were first starting Keystone, I used to say this, and I said, if someone were to give us a million dollars, it's not enough for the vision God has given this church. Right. And I remember somebody in the earliest days was really offended by that, which is unthinkable to me right now. What a small vision. But they were offended by that.
Speaker 1:They said, that sounds arrogant. And I said, you know what? We may not be the church for you because that's not arrogance. It's faith, it's belief, and it's vision, and I would not wanna be a part of a church where you felt like that it was built on arrogance.
Speaker 2:No. Because we have a world who's in pain. We have a world that's living in darkness, and souls if we believe souls are going to hell and God has chosen his church to be the vehicle to give them the great news that they can be in eternity with God forever. There is no limit to that vision. There is no lid.
Speaker 2:There is no, okay, we have arrived. Until heaven and home, we go, and we go fueled by gifts that God people faithfully give.
Speaker 1:And just I wanna complete this last thought, and that is the heart of your gift should be the same, whether, and I'm a use biblical references, whether you are Zacchaeus who gave sacrificially, it wasn't a tithe. The Bible says that one dinner with Jesus, and he was giving, he was repairing relationships with people by giving multiples above what he had taken, okay? That was sacrificial. It was extraordinary. The same emotion I see in the Bible is when the widow gave her little widow's mite, and it wasn't a whole lot of money, certainly nothing compared to Zacchaeus, but it was the same heart.
Speaker 1:And I would say it's also the same pattern. If we are gonna preach for someone who's making a minimum wage, you tithe, or someone making medium income or whatever, you should tithe. I would say also to someone who wins the lottery, and you brought in more money than you thought was humanly possible, you should tithe. You should sacrifice. You should have the saint the mount doesn't change.
Speaker 1:It is the heart. You tithe, you give. You tithe, you sacrifice. You obey, you sacrifice.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And and you're oh, go ahead.
Speaker 1:Go
Speaker 2:ahead. You're setting up your family. If you wanna have a legacy that lasts in your family, you're teaching them God's path, a So good. I remember my mom, when I was young, I just have a memory of my mom explaining to me about the tithe and telling me, hey, this is what we do as a family, so just so that you're aware you're covered under that obedience. And that planted a seed of faith in me that now here I am decades later, and that we are also installing and telling our children, because why?
Speaker 2:Because we Yes. Take God at his
Speaker 1:We take him at
Speaker 2:his word.
Speaker 1:And the motivation's the heart, no matter the amount, if it's, because in God's eyes, it's not the amount, it's the heart. Yes. It's the obedience. And then I'd say this, God has a vision big enough for a tithe on a billion dollar sale of a company. God has a vision.
Speaker 1:And as a pastor, it challenges me, do I have a vision that's big enough? If somebody had a windfall like that, would we be like, I don't know what to do with it? I can tell you right now, we have vision big enough. God has expanded our vision so great that that that there's no limit to how how big the kingdom of God can expand, and there's no limit. Not one person could give.
Speaker 1:Not Elon Musk. Nobody could give to where it exhausts the vision of God has for this planet.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:And so I would just challenge us all, don't predetermine the quitting points. Don't predetermine the lids. Be a part of a church that can handle the vision and has a heart for the expansion of the kingdom. Get in the game.
Speaker 2:Get in the game.
Speaker 1:So what a powerful story. What a powerful, incredible conversation about this money key that changes everything. We'll see you next time on The Overflow.