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Psyche — Greek for soul, mind, the interior life of a person.
Nautes — Greek for sailor.
The Psychonaut explores the interior through actual experience and earns their knowledge only through the return, the application, and the confirmation. Inner-space is as equally endless & mysterious as outer-space.
Life-CAHST.com - A team of Teachers, Practitioners, Facilitators and Specialists of the Law, Investigations, Child Development, Education, Language & Music built to help a person safely navigate reality: What it is to be Human. We combine Evidence & Experience to find Authenticity & Artistry.
Combatting Abuse, Harm Stress & Threats to Life to Care Actually, Honestly, Scientifically & Tactically in Life.
Kristin is a Teacher, Yoga Investigator & Human Development Specialist
Matt is a Child Justice Advocate Criminal Law Scholar & Trial Attorney
Carli is an Educator, Interior Dialogue Facilitator & Forensics Expert
PIETY & NERVOUS SYSTEM WARNING - SOMETIMES WE USE RUDE WORDS! Topics include Drugs, Sex, Death & Violence and also Abuse, Neglect, Abandonment & Betrayal. We explore and explain all human experiences, especially those that impact the mind of a child.
We use raw and vivid imagery and choose words that explore what is real - forensically.
More at lifeCAHST.com & SkepticalMystics.com
I had a great conversation with an ASU student yesterday. She came in and, interviewed me for her it's a psychology course, but it was a psychology course on criminal investigations. As that happened or close in time, I was also interviewed by a local reporter on very significant things that are going on in the world related to law enforcement and self defense and the laws in Arizona. And I was left with just just depressed really and disappointed in the the platforms, the the press and the reporting and the type of reporting that was that was done and so that just again motivated to say this conversation needs to happen because the press has failed our students. The press or the the our politicians and their statements have failed our our students and our public.
Matt Long:And so many rep people who pretend to represent public servants and policing and and, the government have failed the public and so it caused me to consider internally is is how is the public served by by me in my role as an attorney because I am a private attorney, you know, formerly a prosecutor who was a public servant, was committed to the public service. You know, I did prosecuted, trained other prosecutors, and supervised other prosecutors in the most serious of crimes, sex crimes, homicide, death penalty, some of the most violent stuff. And because that's my background, I wanted to bring together a team of public servants to have a conversation about some of the issues that are going on in the world. And so I brought other people who, have experience in, policing and in law enforcement, and in investigations and teachers as well. And because we've all had long careers, I was able to find those with some of the same people.
Matt Long:And so, I the people we're gonna have I'm gonna have a conversation with include, Carly Monscher who is a former, former law enforcement and she was also an a mosaic investigator also in the criminal justice system and was also a teacher and a trainer at a very high level. We have Hillary Jenkins who was a military policeman in the in the in the army as well as a like to say flat foot or a or a regular old local policeman. Yeah. In the Midwest. Chicago area.
Matt Long:Am I right about that?
H.C Jenkins:You
Matt Long:are. And and and a Fed, a G man, an FBI agent. And that idea, that word of being not just a federal agent but being particularly an FBI agent that really has some.
H.C Jenkins:Don't forget the special part.
Matt Long:The special agent, that's right. The gravitas that's a little different than than others but it's certainly relevant given what's going on in the world and then Kristen who was a elementary school teacher for many years, special ed reading specialist but also worked in the courtrooms and in courts, in juvenile courts especially doing investigations for children who are at risk and for families who were dealing with things and also was what's called a mitigation specialist or a mitigation investigator in death penalty, case. And so I thought what better team to get together just to have a conversation about public service and the government and government operations in hopes of providing just a little bit of service to the public. Because as I talked to this reporter, I remembered why I stopped doing press and how frustrated I was with reporters and journalists in their failure to provide context to a situation. And because we're sitting here at 01/27/2026, there's a lot of things going on in the world and people talking about what the law is and law enforcement and constitution and state enforcement and federal agent this and self defense and all these issues that are quite squarely in my wheelhouse and in my lane and in the lane of my friends here that I've brought together.
Matt Long:And so let me just I just want to give you my take and see see what what we're what you guys think about things and what's in your head as you're observing things in in the world. And for me as I was trying to express to this reporter, when she asked me about what is the law of self defense in Arizona? And and what I told her is is to to say what the law is is meaningless. The law is a collection of things that ultimately depend on the law of procedure. And so if you're talking about what a stat what the application of the statute is, well, you have to have a known, fact pattern, which means you have to be able to have reliable facts, and then you have to have a presentation of this material.
Matt Long:And so the law of procedure is the process in order the process of collecting and obtaining reliable data, facts, information, evidence, and then the reliable and full and complete presentation of those facts, data, evidence. And if either of those things are incomplete or lacking, that's a violation of the law of process or due process, which to me is the core of what the constitution is meant to provide as a framework and a procedure, that's the only way we can even begin to have a functional society, functional culture, but particularly a functional justice system. And so the law of procedure is something that's in my head right now more than ever When that's when that's applied uniformly and when it's reliable, that's when we have a functional system. What I'm concerned with is that that has is what's been violated here and what's causing this tension between especially the federal government and the state government and a question of whether or not the law of procedure is being violated. And until we can agree on what the procedure should be, then talking about what the actual application of any statute or law is is meaningless because then we're just talking about the law of power and not the law of procedure.
Carli Moncher:Well, I will tell you for me, my sort of the last few days, what has just been on repeat in my brain is what happened to the constitution and not the piece of paper, but the meaning behind it. As a nation, we have for years you know, for centuries, we have been looking to this document as our moral compass, the certificate of our values as a shared people in one country, and legally,
Matt Long:what
Carli Moncher:is precedent, what is right, what is true, what is sure. And I feel like all of that has now gone out the window, and it has indeed become a piece of paper that holds no value, no meaning, no significance, and therefore can be violated by the government, not all, but by the government at any fair term.
Matt Long:Mhmm. And and and doesn't it then just become rather than a shield of protection for rights, but a weapon with which to, oppress and cause harm. And right now we're in a debate over when is a when is death allowed, celebrated, justified by either the a government official or now questions about when and if civilians or or yeah. Civilians are justified in bringing violence against a government official. Right.
Matt Long:And that that entire debate and discussion demonstrates that this this paper, this document, this concept of the constitution and the laws that are, you know, are are been created and and advanced from them are not providing the safeguards that we would want them to. The fact that we are even having this discussion about what what the law is of self defense when engaged with a federal agent or a law enforcement because you know it's really clear laws of self defense are really meant to explain when a civilian is dealing with a civilian.
Carli Moncher:That's right.
H.C Jenkins:Second amendment. Right.
Matt Long:Now, is interesting because I was thinking about that today as I could
H.C Jenkins:Go ahead. What are you what are you giggling It's there's so much to unpack here, and I appreciate what Carly said about, you know, the constitutional crisis, which I think it is. I've been thinking about it the last several days myself and even contrasting it to the bible and how all that has changed with interpretation. There are some people that wanna hold fast to Old Testament
Carli Moncher:Mhmm.
H.C Jenkins:Versus New Testament. They wanna pick and choose which parts they like and they wanna follow and other parts they want to not follow or change or whatever. And here we have a situation where we have the government or I I I prefer to say this administration because I think we all would agree that we need governmental support to live in this age Absolutely. In
Matt Long:which we live. We love our firefighters. We love our we love our libraries.
H.C Jenkins:Here you've got protester, and I've got my colleagues, retirees, that are publicly social media posts saying, pretty should've known better than to carry a gun to a protest.
Matt Long:Me too. Wait a second. Wait a second. I did as well.
H.C Jenkins:There's nothing wrong that's Second Amendment. You're encouraged to carry a weapon in this country. You can get a permit. You can open it. You can have it out, and you
Kristin Long:can And that's been a fight in our country. There's nothing to say that
Matt Long:you can't
H.C Jenkins:go to a protest with it. Although I just heard today some states prohibit that, and I don't have the
Matt Long:Okay.
H.C Jenkins:The info,
Matt Long:but Yeah. And every state does have its own gun gun laws. Yeah. Every state. That's right.
H.C Jenkins:But to me, I'm already thinking where this is going is we're not gonna be able to protest anymore. Mhmm.
Matt Long:And and that
Carli Moncher:Well, I think that's the overall goal.
Matt Long:Yeah. Right. That appears, appears to be so, and again, it's, this idea of law of procedure. You, you mentioned the Bible. The, the, the lesson of of the gospels especially and and and Jesus of Nazareth.
Matt Long:My reading is it is of it was a lesson on due process that we're to treat our neighbors, ourselves, and our enemies with the same standard. That's right. Yeah. And I submit that's
Carli Moncher:really guaranteed by constitution. Right. And, again, if the constitution matters, then what is happening is implicitly wrong. Yeah.
H.C Jenkins:Yeah. Carly
Carli Moncher:But if the constitution has in effect died, which I am starting to believe at this point, then what the hell? What is due process? It means nothing.
Matt Long:If if if if it's not if it's you know, you mentioned the the the guns at protests. Well, all we have to do is go to a couple years ago when there were protests and you had people showing up with long arms, with with with rifles. That's right. And in fact, killing people. And the same people on one side Yes.
Matt Long:Who were saying that this this this man should not even have been holstered and and armed were celebrating and defending the the exact same not this exact same behavior, more aggressive, worse, behavior, which is which was, you know, using the weapon at a protest.
Carli Moncher:This is
Matt Long:the very example of hypocrisy
Carli Moncher:Hypocrisy. And
Matt Long:a violation of due process or the law. Law and order. Because that I submit is what law and order is meant to be. We have the laws. The order
H.C Jenkins:Mhmm.
Matt Long:Is that they are applied consistently and uniformly regardless of identity. Otherwise, you have law and chaos.
H.C Jenkins:Yeah. Carly and Kristen
Carli Moncher:Or tyranny.
H.C Jenkins:Or tyranny. Yeah. Carly and Kristen, Matt and I had a a phone conversation earlier today, a little bit touched on due process. And I'm I'm big on words, and I thought, due process, what does that mean to me, and what is it? And I immediately reversed the words.
H.C Jenkins:Whenever a situation comes up, they're they're entitled to due process. Process due. Yes. You got it before I even said it. There's a process that's due to everyone and that's been obliterated.
H.C Jenkins:Yeah. Yes. And what in the heck is going on here? I don't even recognize the process. And you've you've
Matt Long:been involved into these process. I mean, process.
H.C Jenkins:And then you're talking about procedures. Oh my gosh. I was a new agent in 1984 and I was issued a big thick paperback book, FRCP, Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure.
Matt Long:That's right. Yeah.
H.C Jenkins:It's the most worn paperback I've ever had. And there is so much in there for federal rules Yeah. Of criminal procedure. It's all laid out. It's all spelled out.
Matt Long:Now Arizona happens to be one of the states that for for its really its entire history has all has basically fully adopted, the federal rules. And so, Arizona's rules of criminal procedure are very much in line and in keeping with the federal rules. So, this is what I've been trained in for all intents and purposes. Mhmm. As well.
Matt Long:And they've, they've really come from some, some great places and some and some honest places and some rigorous places of of you know it comes from bad places as a result of some lessons learned right?
H.C Jenkins:Yeah. Right.
Matt Long:Right.
H.C Jenkins:Absolutely. Well and that's the whole thing.
Matt Long:But now we're going backwards to having to learn those lessons again when all you have to do is apply the existing, what was existing Codified and established procedures. And one example we've talked about, Hill, is that federal agencies historically cooperated with state agencies. Am I right? I'm not wrong about that, am I?
H.C Jenkins:Well, it's evolved over the years. There's, I mean, there's been lots of times in our history where there hasn't been cooperation, but that's the keystone is is cooperation, working together, sharing information, being collaborative, having task force approaches, being current, using technology to your advantage, and the idea that someone would come out within our administration and prematurely already tell the public through the media that this case is over. Mhmm. Yeah. There's no Yeah.
H.C Jenkins:There's no process, there's no procedure, it's already it's this.
Matt Long:Right.
H.C Jenkins:This person is that. This person Without conducting an investigation. Zero.
Matt Long:Right.
H.C Jenkins:And that's the part that's causing me some loss of my footing, I guess, with feeling stable and having confidence and actually being proud, Being proud today of what's happening in our country. Are you proud?
Matt Long:I'm I'm I'm mortified.
H.C Jenkins:The office is mortified. Okay. Carly went right to mortified. I mean, that that's a great word.
Matt Long:You know, it's Mortification. You know, spoke to a friend of mine, I I still maintain friendships
H.C Jenkins:in
Matt Long:in local law enforcement and I talked to a couple of them in over the last few days and found out that they specifically, these agencies, these local agencies have in in Arizona have reached out to the federal to the federal government and to ICE in particular and have said, please inform us of what's going on. We will show up and we will provide crowd control. We will ensure the safety of your officers and our people that it doesn't have to be putting one at risk over the other that that that their intent on in these in these various operations being peace officers providing more peace to the people, more peace to the agents, understanding that yes, there is an official job that needs to be done. They're not going to get into that and they're not going to let people and encourage people not to interfere with with with job or with the the the federal government's operations even if you disagree with them or maybe especially if you disagree with them. That's not that that's that's that's the police aren't gonna do that.
Matt Long:They're not gonna get involved. They're not gonna pick. They're not gonna go against the federal government's operation. They can't. Right.
Matt Long:They cannot, will not.
Carli Moncher:Except, here's my argument. Who makes that claim that they can't?
Matt Long:Well, as I understand it, existing policy within the agencies that there will be that they are going
Carli Moncher:Mutual cooperation. I understand that. But what is the baseline of the requirement that the states do not intervene in federal police matters?
Matt Long:The supremacy clause. Yeah. The supremacy clause.
Carli Moncher:Clause comes from where?
Matt Long:Effectively judicial fiat.
Carli Moncher:Mhmm.
Matt Long:For all intents and purposes, it is it is judge imposed.
Carli Moncher:And what is it that our judiciary makes a pledge to when they become a member of the bench?
Matt Long:The constitution.
Carli Moncher:There you fucking go. That's my argument.
Matt Long:Yeah. Yeah. And and it's and it's a fair one. Because it's what I pointed out, you know, I I I have I have quarrels, a number of quarrels with with some things that were going on by essentially politicians in Arizona over this debate. And you have the Arizona attorney general that that raised some questions and and said, there's real concerns.
Matt Long:We have the Castle Doctrine, we have self defense, and there's concerns if there are people who appear as federal agents but they're masked and do people, can people rely and reasonably believe they're a federal agent? And that could potent they may have the ability to use, force given Arizona's laws. And there's a lot of criticism about that, but the primary criticism came from other politicians, other political candidates, or lobbyists. The police agencies themselves didn't come out and criticize it specifically, but instead they simply clarified what they would be doing and what they would look like. And so Phoenix PD, I know, Flagstaff PD, I saw one.
Matt Long:I saw, I saw some
H.C Jenkins:others. Mesa.
Matt Long:They, they all essentially said the same thing is we do not engage with immigration and customs enforcement. We are we will fully identify ourselves, and we will not be in face coverings or masks. So they put that out. Only other group that there's another group, and this really frustrated me. There was a couple groups actually, that attempted to speak on behalf of police, but have no authority to speak for police, and that certain heads of police unions.
Matt Long:But police unions as I understand it and the the the actual law enforcement people can clarify, as I understand it they are more lobbyists for their for for police officers. They they lobby for budgets. They lobby for money. Not really aren't they don't have the authority to speak on behalf of police writ large and certainly not for any individual agency. Is that your you're both understanding?
Matt Long:Am I am I is that a fair Yes. Statement?
H.C Jenkins:It is. Unfortunately, I wasn't under a police union when I served.
Matt Long:You were not?
H.C Jenkins:I was not.
Carli Moncher:I wasn't either.
Matt Long:Oh, no kidding. Yeah. So So I have I got this information because I happen to represent somebody who was the vice president of a of the of the larger police police union. And then and and and so those are the debates that are that are happening and that was part of my frustration of the of the press is that they were misleading the public to say that these statements were actually speaking on behalf of police.
Carli Moncher:That's right.
Matt Long:When it was ultimately a two part party, for all intents and purposes, debate. It's the the Arizona attorney general is is a Democrat and is a political office. This person, I've known my entire basically career. I went went to law school with her in fact. And and and very familiar with her political arc and she is very much a partisan, but so are all the other people criticizing her.
Matt Long:And so I do have a quarrel a little bit with both, with both things. Because I do think that some of the things she said, although true, could have been presented just a little bit differently saying, there are concerns and we need more order. We need better procedure. We we need more reliable procedure when dealing with this. Otherwise, there is a risk of more chaos, violence, more death.
Matt Long:Yes. And I would have preferred that because it is true to to the people of Arizona. There is an exception to the self defense laws that say you are not justified if the person who is using threats or force, including deadly force, is a law enforcement officer acting in their official capacity. Now, the question becomes interesting when you deal with, okay, if they're operating in their official capacity, but doing unlawful things. Right.
Matt Long:That's an un really an untested question so far, and it's not a question that should be litigated in the streets Or the media. Or the media. That is the what the courts need to be out there doing, I submit, or or the these are these officials need to be rushing to the courts and saying, what is an unlawful act? I mean these are really the questions that we're dealing with with these federal agents. It's often these people understand these are bonafide federal agents despite the lack of of of uniform uniforms.
Matt Long:Right? Then it becomes, but if they engage in an unlawful act, what is one's rights under let's let's say with Arizona law of castle doctrine or of self defense or justification. See, these are where really what the question is.
Kristin Long:Well, and doesn't it get dicey when citizens now are seeing with our own eyes, they're not acting lawfully, but yet we're still supposed to choose as citizens that are untrained to just always act lawfully. That's what I The
Carli Moncher:constitution binds us as citizens to our own behavior, but it does not now bind the government to any form of of anything.
Kristin Long:Yes.
Carli Moncher:And how can you do whatever the hell they want?
Kristin Long:Yes. How can you promise that if you're this is a citizen question where that we why we're here. How can you promise that if they even are approaching me and I, you know, putting my hands up, hey, I'm willing to work with you. We've seen them now take action, take violence. So how do you even choose to act?
Kristin Long:And are right? Can you assume, no. Don't worry. It's it's not. You don't have any self defense worry.
Kristin Long:They're gonna be fine. They're gonna treat you right.
Carli Moncher:Right. But no. Can a reasonable person assume no harm?
Matt Long:Yes. Right. No. Given what we're observing, I think the answer has to be it's reasonable to conclude no. Reasonable to conclude no given what has been observed.
Matt Long:And when they have made the declaration that there will be no opportunity for procedure or investigation to occur so you can challenge it.
H.C Jenkins:Wow. That's right. I just thought of expectation of privacy and it jumped right expectation of security. There's no more expectation of security.
Carli Moncher:There's no no expectation of either, but yes. The bigger of the two being security.
Matt Long:Right. Right. Wow.
Kristin Long:Mhmm.
H.C Jenkins:And
Matt Long:and that's right. Cause we used to tell people, listen, when you're dealing with law enforcement, here's what the law is and here's what you can do and here's what you can refuse. Right? You can refuse to, you have the right to refuse field sobriety tests. Well, what if they demand and after I refuse they say you must get out and do that?
Matt Long:Well, then at some point you're gonna have to comply. And the time to then litigate that after you've documented that is going to be in court somewhere else.
H.C Jenkins:That's
Matt Long:right. That type of advice can't really be given anymore if you're not afforded the procedure and the opportunity with which to either collect evidence or present evidence.
Kristin Long:Major agencies are fighting over whether it's even right to get evidence or hide evidence. Right.
Carli Moncher:Right. And we have this two party issue going on at our in our justice system at the judicial level where we have politically appointed judges who are appointed for life. And depending on which party you claim is going to be which side, so to speak, you take. And that is not that has never been the concept of justice, which I have in air quotes, in our country.
Matt Long:Right. And we used to be, look, there was always injustice, there was always corruption that's gonna exist,
Kristin Long:but Absolutely.
Matt Long:But I've
Carli Moncher:never But it was pretty much across the board.
Matt Long:Right. I've never seen to this level the partisanship Yeah.
Carli Moncher:That's within
Matt Long:the judiciary and within policing.
H.C Jenkins:I'm I'm picturing a cartoonist with a Republican judge and a Democrat defendant
Matt Long:Yeah.
H.C Jenkins:An arrow pointing to jail. Right.
Carli Moncher:Right? Right. Yeah. Or insert a five year old instead of now the five year old is the defendant.
Matt Long:Right. Absolutely.
Kristin Long:Well, there's gonna that that's been my my thing from the very beginning is these kids now are seeing such terrible things on the news that their parents have the news on or if people are talking about it at recess. Even these little kids. Right? These Yep. What is their picture of humanity and goodness and peace officers?
Kristin Long:What does this even look like? A five year old right now is going to be eight and three years and, right, three years of an of
H.C Jenkins:When I grow up, I wanna be a police officer Yeah. Or an ICE Yeah. Or an ICE
Kristin Long:And what does that mean now? Do you get to go grow up and shoot people?
H.C Jenkins:So that's the question. What kind of people are we recruiting and who want who wants to be part of this? Right.
Carli Moncher:And You know what, Kristen? I've been reading about this topic, your question, my whole life. Mhmm. Any book from Holocaust survivors, from families, from children of Holocaust survivors, And the the picture is bleak of what they believe in terms of justice and law enforcement. And it it is going to in many ways, it is going to mirror and echo those perceptions because that's what's around them at this point.
Kristin Long:Yes.
H.C Jenkins:Well yeah. Carly, I just feel like I've been lost in time because when I was a police officer, late seventies, early eighties, we didn't have a union, and it's because we trusted the mayor, we trusted the city council, we trusted the police chief, we had benefits, we had support the job, we had processes that we go through to better improve situations would help us do the job better. And there was always a goal for continuous improvement. And now everyone has lost faith. Yeah.
H.C Jenkins:Yes. And lost trust. And is There's is a a drift. They're a drift as to what do I latch onto right now.
Carli Moncher:Mhmm. That's right.
H.C Jenkins:Then what do I do?
Matt Long:An enforcement
Carli Moncher:any safer?
H.C Jenkins:That's the thing that
Matt Long:it does say that again, because that's an overarching theme. Carly, say that again.
Carli Moncher:It doesn't make law enforcement any safer.
Matt Long:Right.
Carli Moncher:In fact, it hinders them and it scrambles my brain that so many law enforcement or law enforcement supporters are still in favor no matter what the behavior is just because of the party line. And it's blowing my mind.
Matt Long:It really is. You know, the other thing that I've as we've been talking here, what I am acknowledging and want to I guess want to acknowledge is my minority friends would tell me, Yeah, Matt, this has been our existence forever.
Carli Moncher:1000%.
Matt Long:You're now Amen.
H.C Jenkins:You're now Getting a taste of it.
Matt Long:Getting just a taste of it because finally Yeah. A white woman and a white man were on the other side of that gun.
Carli Moncher:That's
Matt Long:right. But our the constitution's never meant it. Procedure. The thing you're talking about that you you hold up and you you know, you treat as your, you know, your scripture. And and it is what I, you know, in my my transition, my faith transition, I went from the scriptures of the Bible to the scripture of the constitution and some of these rules of criminal procedure and the rules of evidence which I felt were a reliable way for approximating truth.
Matt Long:Understanding that you can never get there.
Carli Moncher:When it goes back to the original question that you asked about, which is what is law? And there was a point in our country's history where it was legal to own humans.
Matt Long:Right. Right.
Carli Moncher:So for those of us who are just getting this taste of injustice and what could possibly be the limits of that, this has in centuries for some of our citizens, and it is absolutely worth acknowledging.
Matt Long:Yeah. You know, when I go back to my early career, my first career as a as a prosecutor in Maricopa County, the Republican County Attorney and the Republican Sheriff were at odds with each other nonstop because the county attorney was constantly trying to keep in check this this tyrannical sheriff. Indeed. And it was just in the lot, you know, since then that we saw this marriage in politics between DAs or county attorneys, prosecutors, and the law enforcement where they really really once were. There was a check and a balance.
Matt Long:I I I and that just does those are the things that don't exist. And I'm going both sides. It's not just this isn't just a problem of one side. It's just that one side currently is exercising its its power more. Yes.
Matt Long:As we exist today. But I'm always the side of the opposition. It didn't matter. It didn't matter whether the person I voted for won or not. The moment the person I voted for, won, I immediately became part of the opposition because I'm a citizen.
Matt Long:It's not just to endorse endorse him or her because we share party affiliation. That's the again, as an Arizona kid independence was kind of baked into my bones.
Carli Moncher:Agreed.
Matt Long:We were never really, we certainly, we certainly supported and really took seriously the idea of states, rights, and individual rights.
Carli Moncher:And
Matt Long:so I very much blame the last fifteen years of the rest of the country coming in and infiltrating our independent ways with their particular partisanship ways. Now I wish I could, you know, it'd be that that that's me othering, you know, other other people. I I not saying we're we're all immune to it, but by and large, I like to believe that it's just too hot here to deal with so much of this bullshit. And I'm still have faith in the people that really mean these things, the things that they say when they talk about states rights, individual sovereignty, liberty which ultimately is liberty only exists if there is law and order or process due everyone.
Carli Moncher:That's right.
Matt Long:If we're truly to be a a so called Christian nation, and that's debatable, but let's let's assume that it is. Then we must treat our friend, our neighbor, ourselves, and our enemy with the same standard of proof and the same procedure.
Carli Moncher:That's
Kristin Long:right. We used to value truth though in that procedure and peace and right? There was truth and evidence. And we are in a time where they don't we don't want to look at truth. We want to deny we, not we, but leaders, ICE, this that's happening.
Kristin Long:They want to cover up truth or disregard evidence. And if truth is not continually fought for and found, everything falls apart. Because now it's just either choice or opinion or who's right and who's wrong, not truth.
H.C Jenkins:I don't even wanna call them leaders. They don't even have the qualities of what I think a leader is and what a leader should do Yeah. What a leader could do.
Carli Moncher:So Those in power.
H.C Jenkins:That's not a block against you. No.
Kristin Long:I mean
Matt Long:Those in power. Oh.
H.C Jenkins:Yes. And it's Yeah. It's it's disgusting.
Matt Long:Well, I had at somebody reach out and said, know, let's not call these let's not call them federal agents. We need to just call them thugs.
H.C Jenkins:Yeah. And I said hear that a lot.
Matt Long:And I understood that, but I said, no. They are federal agents. That's right. That is what is even potentially worse and even more of an indictment is because they are doing it under the color of law. That's Effectively representatives of us.
H.C Jenkins:Well, thought it was a little too hasty to start immediately with abolish ICE. Yeah. But here we are. We're still not through the month of January yet, and I've had time to, you know, ruminate on this. And I I really think that it's gonna have to be abolished in order to Like, it's gonna we're gonna have to change the name and look through our marketplace.
H.C Jenkins:How many times we've had disastrous things happen and the name gets changed.
Matt Long:CPS, right? Yeah. CPS. The
H.C Jenkins:branding and Maps. Yeah. Everything. Absolutely. Because it's We're got have
Carli Moncher:to bring this to the ground.
H.C Jenkins:Yeah. It has to be
Matt Long:a wholesale
H.C Jenkins:fire sale. Let's
Matt Long:Let's put our sun sign mounted away. But let's go back to where it started. 09:11. That's right. And the Patriot Act.
Matt Long:The so called Patriot Act. Yep. And there were many of us that were, I'm gonna say, the Barry Goldbott water conservatives. What? Goldbott.
Matt Long:The Goldbottir. Butter. I thought you said Butter. Barry Goldwater conservatives. The Sandra Day O'Connor Republicans.
Matt Long:Uh-huh. The Libertarians that really were fighting against and concerned with the application of the Patriot Act and moving from INS and Hillary pointed this out to me one time is when it was INS, that's immigration and naturalization.
Carli Moncher:Naturalization services.
Matt Long:Service. It was a service. We're serving. Like the postal service.
H.C Jenkins:Service. Service. We're providing a service.
Carli Moncher:That's right.
H.C Jenkins:To
Matt Long:you. Versus enforcement. And the same thing we were talk again talk about these words. Peace officer. Versus SWAT agent.
H.C Jenkins:Yeah.
Matt Long:Right? Or a SWAT officer or law enforcement Operator. That's right. And so I I I agree with that completely.
Carli Moncher:Did I tell you? What did I tell you in terms of this? Language is behavior.
Matt Long:Language is behavior.
Carli Moncher:And that's exactly what we're seeing
Matt Long:Yeah.
Carli Moncher:With these ramped up kind of marketing names of Terrorists. More militaristic yeah.
Matt Long:Right. Yeah. Right. Language is behavior, and we're
Carli Moncher:seeing it in out the for all the citizens in all the world to see that we are enforcement.
Matt Long:Yeah. And Mhmm. And it it and and Carly and I were talking on a on a separate conversation about some personal things is, you know, my concept and our concept of of justice. And was questioning whether or not actual justice exists in the criminal justice system because of the system. And the the thing that that that that Carly mentioned that I'll I'll repeat but that that really struck with me is but we do have the ability to be justice as individuals.
Matt Long:I
Carli Moncher:feel like it's our duty even more now.
Matt Long:Yeah.
Kristin Long:So how do you do that safely?
Carli Moncher:Well, that's an excellent question.
Kristin Long:Wow. Because we we believe that. All four of us believe that here, and there are so many Americans that do. But they want us to believe that in order to stay safe, you need to go home and be quiet. Well While they while they do whatever they want.
Kristin Long:And so what how do we do that safely? We must.
Matt Long:I I so I think I have
Kristin Long:some I mean we
Matt Long:must do proposals as, and, and the first is for people and especially students. You know, I, I, I also think if we go back in history, you know, the, the Minnesota called in the National Guard. And they were there saying, hey, we're here to protect the people and I made a a response and and said, the Kent State alumni object and it meant no one, almost no one would remember what that that means. I know some of the older people here do but at one point, there was a protest at Kent State University over the Vietnam.
Carli Moncher:National Guard was brought in.
Matt Long:The Vietnam War and the National Guard was brought in and shots were fired and four as I recall students were killed and seven or nine were injured. Yeah. And so the first in order for justice exist or first of all, I I reject the idea that martyrdom of anonymous people especially, and and really anyone, is valuable. We can have that we can have that debate about maybe specific instances, but but it survival is the best form of resistance. And so to be safe, and if if one is going to protest, agitate, be there, be safe.
Matt Long:Don't get too close. The law in Arizona is that you can record, but that you must stay at a minimum eight feet away from law enforcement.
H.C Jenkins:Well, and and this is a difference. These aren't protesters lined up on the main street. Right. Protesting something that's going on. Yeah.
H.C Jenkins:This is right in their neighborhood. There's real life law enforcement action taking place, and they're in the midst of it. Yeah.
Matt Long:They're Mhmm. They're bringing the fight to their doors, literally. That's right. So And I also saw distinction. Interesting.
Carli Moncher:Yeah. Yeah. Suggestions saying if you are going to engage in any type of recording or protesting, get a burner phone, leave your phone at home. And I thought it was a great suggestion.
Matt Long:Great, great suggestion. And if at some point, if, if at whatever point, law enforcement, you know, federal agents, you know, that's the other thing I say, oh, don't call them law enforcement because that's really, that's really reserved for local, state, and county police officers. And I and I and I support that. I'm gonna start saying
Carli Moncher:I agree with that as well.
Matt Long:I I do too. Federal agents versus local, state, county law enforcement. We can distinguish between, again, state power and federal power. But the other thing is once a federal agent or law enforcement officers made the decision you're going to be detained, arrested, and taken, stop. Don't resist.
Matt Long:Don't don't apply force because if we try to litigate questions of justification in the streets, we have enough data to know that the civilian loses.
Carli Moncher:Every time.
Matt Long:Every time. And resistance is the best or survival is the best form of resistance, and we can make an attempt to litigate that issue
H.C Jenkins:Come come back to fight another day.
Matt Long:Fight another way. That's right.
Carli Moncher:Yeah. While you're still alive.
Matt Long:Yep. That's right. It is not your life is so precious and you can do more with it in the future because we don't know what the next weeks, months, years are going to be. We would rather have those of you who care so much to be around to engage in productive things, not just be a soldier in somebody else's war where they're willing to sacrifice you on the altar of their power.
Carli Moncher:Yeah.
Matt Long:Yeah. I want I want
H.C Jenkins:to learn more about de escalation
Matt Long:Mhmm.
H.C Jenkins:And what's involved in that. And I also thought this morning, what's happening with me personally is I'm going through the the classic five stages of grief.
Matt Long:Oh, interesting. Grief.
H.C Jenkins:And I I looked into that a little bit. You know, it's been identified as five classic steps, but there's two more added now. And those are those are also applicable, and I think that's what everyone's trying to put their finger on right now. What's go what why am I feeling this way? Well, you're go you're you're grieving what's happenings in our nation Yeah.
H.C Jenkins:That we love.
Matt Long:And Yeah. It brings it brings me
H.C Jenkins:Straight across.
Matt Long:Kinda where where I began, I guess, which is to say is, is it possible to not pick a side but to pick the side of order procedure and process due to every individual to all sides because there's not really just two. And I am because I am critical of all those that are in power. That doesn't mean I stump for or am on the other side. I'm one of the very rare independents but that doesn't mean I'm neutral on any particular issue. Independence doesn't mean neutrality and you just say, well, you know, this is now remind of another one of my other favorite phrases which is I I'm I'm Switzerland.
Matt Long:Yeah. Well, no. I like my I at least I at least like positions the way Jesus likes people. Either hot or cold. Take a side so I know which which which sides you're on or not which side you're on as it relates to the position.
Matt Long:Because what position what position you or what side you're on related to a position tells me a lot more about your ethics and about your sense of God, theology, justice that make me know whether or not you're a reliable reporter or not.
Carli Moncher:Yeah. And I also feel like it's so there's so much of a spectrum, and that's why having conversations with people and actively listening to what they're saying and not just formulating your next thought and your next rebuke and all the things. But you can hear some of those commonalities as you have those conversations. And even if
Kristin Long:it may
Carli Moncher:be that you end up with so much difference, it's not I don't think it's going to be quite as much difference as before you started the conversation. At least that's been my experience.
Matt Long:I agree. I agree. But we if we're to have instead of having shared identities, I'm interested in finding those that we do share values with principles And a great place to start is if we share the law of procedure, the law of order, and agree that we will we will treat ourselves, our neighbor, and our enemy with the same standards of proof and with the same types of investigation and the same procedure that is the collection of reliable information and then the presentation of reliable information. And then we can come to a place of at least shared reality and then if we don't draw conclusions that are the same, at least we're dealing from the same material.
Carli Moncher:Yeah. And I think that's exactly how to answer Kristen's question, how we become justice safely is we come from that starting point, whether it be for a position that we stand for or against or somewhere in the middle, we still apply those same principles across the board.
Matt Long:Amen. Yeah. Well, my name is Matt Long.
Kristin Long:I'm Kristen Long.
H.C Jenkins:I'm Hillary Jenkins.
Carli Moncher:And I'm Carly Monscher.
Matt Long:And we're the Wayfarers. More soon.