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"Winning in Ministry" is a podcast dedicated to empowering church leaders and ministry professionals with the tools and insights needed to thrive in their spiritual and organizational roles. Each episode features engaging discussions with experienced pastors, ministry experts, and thought leaders who share their wisdom on effective leadership, congregational growth, and navigating the challenges of modern ministry. Whether you're looking for inspiration, practical advice, or strategies to enhance your ministry's impact, "Winning in Ministry" offers valuable content to help you lead with confidence and purpose. Tune in to discover how to overcome obstacles, foster a vibrant church community, and achieve success in your ministry journey.
Well, hey, everyone, and welcome to our very first episode of the Winning in Ministry podcast, where we encourage and equip pastors and ministry leaders to thrive, not just survive, in their calling. My name is Tom.
Ray Sanders:And I'm Ray, and we're so glad you're tuning in today. This is gonna be a great podcast. I'm looking forward to it. And since this is our very first show, we thought it would be helpful and handy to share the heart behind the podcast and the organization that launched it, Edify Leaders.
Intro VO:You're listening to the Winning in Ministry podcast, where members of the Edify Leaders ministry coaching team share insights and inspiration they have gained as they seek to strengthen ministers for exponential impact in life and ministry. And now, here are your hosts, Ray Sanders and Tom Matthew.
Tom Matthem:Alright. So we're gonna go with the origin story. Let's start at the very beginning. Edify Leaders. Where did it begin?
Tom Matthem:Where did it start? Why is Ed called Edify Leaders?
Ray Sanders:Yeah. Exactly. That's a good question. Well, you know, Tom, it's been several years now, but we were working in the corporate world. And we were doing an executive coaching, strategic planning, leadership development in the corporate world.
Ray Sanders:And we're seeing a lot of success. We were working with Fortune 500 companies. We're working with multimillion dollar companies. And somewhere along the way, someone said, hey. I love what you're doing.
Ray Sanders:Would you ever consider doing what you're doing among ministers? And I said, you know, it's not that I haven't thought that wouldn't be possible, but I'm I'm just not so sure that ministers could afford what we do. Mhmm. It it's very, comprehensive. Mhmm.
Ray Sanders:It's very involved, and we take what we do very seriously. We we grow companies. We grow leadership teams. We come alongside these executives helping them navigate the challenges they face in life, in work. And the guy was like, exactly.
Ray Sanders:Mhmm. That's exactly what ministers are doing. They said this happens to be in ministry. I mean, if you think about it, they have a product. I'm not trying to take anything away from Jesus, but Jesus is the product.
Ray Sanders:I mean, Jesus is the answer. Right? It's what everybody needs. He's the real thing. Mhmm.
Ray Sanders:They have a physical plan more than than likely. They have a quote, quote, retail location, if you will. They have, quote, quote, customers, members, people in the community that they wanna serve. And then they have a a team. They have staff.
Ray Sanders:Not every church has, but most do. They have a staff, and then they have this thing called the volunteer. And so as we talked about it, we began to explore and ask ourselves, okay. It's one idea to transfer what we've been doing from the corporate world into the ministry world, but is there a real need for it? Mhmm.
Ray Sanders:And this
Tom Matthem:is First of all, though, it had to first you were trying to it took a minute to be able to translate what was happening there into the ministry world. Mhmm. But this person was able to help you see there's a lot of similarities that are here. There's a there's lot. Yeah.
Tom Matthem:There's a lot that's that's that's there that can translate. But then again, it's a matter of, okay, contextualizing it. What does that look like in the church world?
Ray Sanders:Exactly. And I was like, well, how's that gonna apply? I I I think it's similar, but come on. It's it's ministers. It's preachers.
Ray Sanders:It's you know? And how does that compare to a hardcore business guy or woman? And the truth is there are a lot alike. There are a lot alike. And so, there were some guys that got behind it and said, yeah, we we wanna fund it.
Ray Sanders:We wanna launch it. But before we did, we thought, know, I'm gonna I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna talk to some some pastors. I mean, we talked to a lot of pastors and we we asked basically three questions and it was an in person type of deal. And this is kinda how the conversation went over a cup of coffee. It's like, just be real with me.
Ray Sanders:It's 2AM in the morning. You've done something stupid. I mean, you're human too. Maybe you ended up in a ditch. Maybe you've gone someplace you shouldn't have gone.
Ray Sanders:You've done and you're in jail of all things. You're in the ministry and you're in jail. Who are you going to call? And they looked at me like, oh man, most of the guys that I would talk to like that, they're probably in another state. Am I gonna call I probably call my wife, but depending on upon how stupid it is, she may not come and pick me up.
Ray Sanders:Uh-huh. But it's like it was obvious. They didn't really have an intimate friendship, somebody that they could get real with, kinda like kinda like what I said in the day. And we we we came up with this concept. We are the originator of the concept like Jonathan was to David.
Ray Sanders:This is something that we we formed this idea that ministers need a friend like Jonathan. Mhmm. And so most of them no. I I I don't have that. And then I said, okay.
Ray Sanders:Another question. You know, you're running an organization. You have issues. You don't know everything. Who's the wise old Al?
Ray Sanders:Who's the one with more gray in their beard than you that could talk to you about, you man, let me draw from my knowledge, my life experience to pour into you. Is it another pastor? Is it a is it a a stud of a, you know, the chairman of your deacon or your elders? Who is it? And, honestly, Tom, it was around less than 20 in both of those questions.
Ray Sanders:People had anybody they could name. Wow. That's that's eye opening. Mhmm. But you think about it, where do ministers go?
Ray Sanders:Who do they talk to? I mean, are they gonna in the corporate world, we say, you know, are you gonna go home and talk to your wife? Are you gonna talk to your stakeholders? You're gonna talk to your shareholders. You're gonna talk to your board members.
Ray Sanders:You know, when you talk to them, you risk exposing yourself. And in ministry, it's a it's times 10. So where's the safe place? The place that you could go and just be real. Kinda like you would with a counselor.
Ray Sanders:Kinda like how you would with your CPA or a lawyer or your doctor even. Who would you go to? It was crickets, man. It was very limited. Some people have somebody.
Ray Sanders:Some people have somebody that they went to seminary with or Bible college or somewhere else, but there weren't a lot. Yeah. And then we asked the last question. I said, we've got to do this. And I said, okay, apart from apart from sermon prep, apart from doing a funeral, apart from doing a wedding, how is your, and there's a keyword here, how is your walk with Jesus?
Ray Sanders:And Tom, more than once with tears in their eyes, ministers would say, you know what? It's become a job. What I'm doing has become a job. And there was a time that I had a personal devotion at a time and I felt like I was walking with Jesus, but I've lost that presence. And so what we ended up referring that to, and like I said, we're the originators of this, is what we call the three j model.
Ray Sanders:We wanna be a friend like Jonathan. We wanna be a counselor, a wise counsel adviser like Jethro, And we wanna come alongside you like the two brothers on the road to Emmaus and help you enrich your walk with Jesus to recognize he's there with you. That's good. You know, we could sense his presence. So that's that's how it got started.
Ray Sanders:And then one other thing that came up as as a part of the research, it was just the tie at the time, Barna, the Barna Research Group, came out with a survey, the nationwide survey they had done, and it was around the COVID time period somewhere in there. I can't remember exactly when. And they were finding a a really alarming number of pastors were leaving the ministry. And anybody who lived through COVID, you know, you know what that was like, the added stress. Well, it's like COVID revealed so much in the body of Christ in the church.
Ray Sanders:And what it revealed was that our pastors are isolated, they're discouraged, they're lonely, they are they're they're burning out. And anywhere from thirty to fifty percent had at least considered leaving the ministry. We thought, okay. Let's go back to these underwriters and say, hey. We think that we can do what we we do in the corporate world.
Ray Sanders:And so we launched it. And so at this point, we served well over 200 ministers, through the ministry of, of, edified leaders. We've we've got, anywhere from 13 coaches to to more that are pouring their lives into people and just helping people navigate the challenges that they've, found in life and work. And the good news is because of, wonderful people that believe in what we're doing, I still have my day job. I still do what I'm doing, but people are underwriting what we do.
Ray Sanders:And because of that, ministers, pastors, people in the ministry are able to get, executive leadership type coaching, growth strategy development at no cost. No cost to the minister and no cost to their ministry. And we're doing that in person. We're doing that online. It's all confidential.
Ray Sanders:Everything that we do is confidential. It's one on one. We like to serve as a sounding board. We listen probably twice as much as we talk. Mhmm.
Ray Sanders:And we just really help unpack those blind spots and help that minister navigate the challenges he or she is facing in life and ministry because life affects work, life affects ministry, and ministry affects work. And so it it works it work or ministry affects life. It works both ways. And so that's what we're doing. We're unpacking all of that.
Tom Matthem:I I wanna dive into this a little bit because I think I think it's important for everyone to kind of, hear, the struggles that ministers are facing. You hit on this a little bit, but I wanna dive in a little bit more because I believe there are those on the other end that could resonate with that. Mhmm. They may not even state it, you know, but it could be underlying. And I think it's just important to kind of share that.
Tom Matthem:And for others, it may be new. It could be something that they weren't aware of. So what would you say are the common struggles you hear from the ministry conversations that you're having?
Ray Sanders:Yeah. That's a that's a great question. And and I get that question from a lot of folks that are asking about what we're doing, whether or not it's somebody that wants to to to donate in order to fund it, or maybe it's a talk show host somewhere. There's something I wanna I wanna say this right from the get go. 90% of the the ministers that we work for, they're not down and out, long in the mouth, you know, stressed out, you know, about to quit.
Ray Sanders:Yep. Most of them are hardworking, pour their heart and soul into everything. One of the things that is so sad is that all the bad apples get all the news.
Tom Matthem:Yeah.
Ray Sanders:And there's no shortage of headlines on ministers that have had a moral failure or ministers that have done something wrong or crooked or or we see a picture of them in an orange jumpsuit somewhere. And that tends to be what sticks in people's minds, but that's not where most hardworking, God fearing ministers live. Mhmm. And here's the other thing. A lot of them are excited about what God's doing.
Ray Sanders:They have thriving ministries. Yeah. They're seeing God do amazing things. But what we found is everybody can use encouragement. Everybody can use encouragement and everybody can use accountability.
Ray Sanders:And so that's, that's what we're doing. We're coming alongside them, helping them navigate those challenges. And so therefore, the challenges would be the struggles. And what are those kind what are those struggles? Well, those struggles it's no different than anybody listening.
Ray Sanders:Whether they're a minister or not, they have struggles in their marriage. Mhmm. Oh, but my pastor has struggles in his marriage. You better believe it. You mean to tell me my pastor's kids aren't perfect?
Ray Sanders:Yeah. They've got trouble with their kids.
Tom Matthem:PK is not perfect kid.
Ray Sanders:Yeah. That's right. That's right. There's a lot of broken arrows out there, and we're gonna talk about it eventually. But the the truth is they're struggling with challenges challenges as well financially.
Ray Sanders:Mhmm. Most ministers are making a financial sacrifice to be in ministry. I don't know if you know or not, but a lot of them aren't taking vacations. A lot of them aren't doing some of the things that they wanna do for their kids and their family, and it becomes very strenuous. And then they struggle with stronghold sins, whether it's pornography.
Ray Sanders:Yeah. That's right. Your minister might be struggling with pornography or they they might struggle with a drinking problem or they're self medicating. Maybe their marriage is literally on the rocks, you know? So the same issues when it comes to challenges and and struggles, they're out there.
Ray Sanders:But the great thing about what edified leaders does is that we're there to listen and share our life experiences. Our lineup of, coaches, oh my word, these are seasoned guys and ladies that have been there. They've been in ministry. They've navigated those struggles and those challenges, and they have a lot to share. But do you know what else they do?
Ray Sanders:They have a caring, compassionate, and listening heart. Yeah. So that's the struggles. Yep. But there's another side of this.
Tom Matthem:Yeah.
Ray Sanders:Our pastors wanna know how to grow.
Tom Matthem:Yeah. Right.
Ray Sanders:They wanna know how to grow themselves. They wanna know how to grow their marriage. They wanna and they wanna know how to grow their ministries. How do we reach our community? And I like to say it this way.
Ray Sanders:Our ministers are the x factors. And it's one thing to say, well, we just want healthy pastors that lead to, you know, healthy churches, and healthy churches lead to healthy communities, and we change the world. Hey. I'm all about health. Yep.
Ray Sanders:I'm all about health. But at edify leaders, edify leaders has put together a minister's manifesto, and, man, people owe it to themselves to go to edifyleaders.org. Go to that section on the website. Find the minister's manifesto. Hand it to your pastor.
Ray Sanders:If you are a pastor or a minister, reading it, read it and realize that's what I'm called to do. Yep. I'm not here just to wind through my ministry and woe is me. No. We're raising up an army.
Ray Sanders:We're raising up a movement of not just healthy. Yep. Strong. Yep. Strong ministers.
Ray Sanders:Yep. Ministers that are strong and ready for battle. And so we're coming alongside them. Help them develop and encourage them to do those things with, that's right, unwavering encouragement but fierce accountability.
Tom Matthem:Well, and I think that's what makes edify leaders unique from other organizations. Right? It's it's it's the approach. It's not let's just barely get them over the hump. Right?
Tom Matthem:Hey. Hey.
Ray Sanders:If can just
Tom Matthem:if we can just push them just a little bit. Yeah. No. We don't want them to just survive. We don't want them to just make it another day.
Tom Matthem:We want to help them thrive for the long haul. Mhmm. So they're able to get to that finish line, right, and say, finished the race. So we're we're we're moving with the end in mind. We're not just trying to make it day to day, minute by minute.
Tom Matthem:We're trying to say, hey. How can we come alongside? And I like what you said, Ray. There's a lot of listening that's involved. We're not Sure.
Tom Matthem:One of the things that we talk about when it comes to edify leaders is we don't just show up and and we've got a template and we just take everybody through this process. We were led by the Holy Spirit. We prayerfully enter in. We listen and allow the Holy Spirit to lead us and guide us in that moment of which every single one of those are unique.
Ray Sanders:And here's the great thing about NFI Leaders. We're drawing from the arsenal of that commercial company. My commercial company is Ray Sanders Coaching Leaders. Mhmm. All those resources Yep.
Ray Sanders:Ray Sanders Coaching Leaders has given those to the ministry of edify leaders. Yep. And so it's not just that we're sitting around thinking about or spitballing what we're
Tom Matthem:talking about. That's
Ray Sanders:good. We have a whole arsenal unlike any other ministry that I know of. In fact, a lot of other ministries are utilizing our our resources for their ministries, and they're they're they're duplicating or even copycatting what we're doing. Yeah. But we're the originator.
Ray Sanders:We're the we're the original. We've been around since 02/2009. We've been doing this type of thing for quite a while, and we do it in person. But those tools are out there. I mean, anybody listening, they can they can go to edifyleaders.org, and they can see the tools that are out there.
Ray Sanders:They're free. They're available. I love that. And that's the type of thing that that we wanna be known for is making those type of things available. And that's what this podcast is about, quite frankly.
Ray Sanders:What we're doing, if you're a minister that's out there thinking, oh, this sounds so great. Well, guess what? You can probably get coaching. But what we've done is we've taken from all of our coaches. We've said, what are the top twenty twenty one topics that you're hearing?
Ray Sanders:And we're gonna take each one of those topics. Mhmm. And we're gonna bring in our coaches, and we're gonna talk about these issues. Yep. All kinds of issues.
Ray Sanders:Yep. Things like resting to be your best.
Tom Matthem:Yep.
Ray Sanders:You know? All all all sorts of things. What's it like to raise up children in the church? Yeah. How do you overcome church hurt?
Ray Sanders:I mean, there's just all kinds of things. Communication. We're gonna unpack all those hot topics through the podcast. It's gonna be great.
Tom Matthem:Yeah. I love it. Well and just to hit on that, Ray, I think I think the beauty of edify leaders, again, it's it's holy spirit led, but we're coming with all these tools and resources. And so that's the thing. I'm not showing up to a coaching session and say, okay, we're on step number 15.
Tom Matthem:Here's where we're going. I'm going, you talk, you share, where are you at? Alright. Here's the tools that I have. Which one applies And then taking that and contextualizing.
Tom Matthem:And I think that's important because I think too often you can go to a coach or someone and you're just following their plan, and it may not be applicable right away. What we're talking about is what we're saying right now, you can apply five minutes after we're done and put that in your, you know, coming path.
Ray Sanders:If you're listening, don't miss what Tom's saying. And here's here's the differentiator. There are organizations out there, and they have a kind of a regimen. It's almost like you're working through a textbook. Yeah.
Ray Sanders:Well, we're gonna start here, and then next week, we're gonna do this, and we're gonna go through the book, and then you're gonna fill out a worksheets, and they're gonna do this. It feels so impersonal. Yep. What we do is what's going on in your world. Right.
Ray Sanders:And then we're gonna be there with you. We're gonna try to apply the knowledge. And then if we have a tool Yep. A resource that applies to that, we're gonna pull up on the file cabinet. Yep.
Ray Sanders:But we're not going through file cabinet a, b, c, d, c, you know, whatever. Here's the other thing. Second thing that differentiates us. And quite frankly, this this really drives me crazy. There are organizations that they say we just wanna ask good questions.
Ray Sanders:And we wanna ask questions to the point that the person figures it out. Can I just say something if you're listening out there? I love you too much to let you wallow in your questions. And what we're gonna what we do and we encourage our coaches to do, yes, be quiet. Listen.
Ray Sanders:Mhmm. Help bring a horse to water. Yep. But if they don't get it, help them. Yep.
Ray Sanders:Give them a little taste of the salt. Put some salt in the water. Help them. Give them the strategy. I'm a strategist at heart.
Ray Sanders:I I solve problem problem solver. I wanna grow things. Yeah. I'm not gonna let you wallow in your misery. Can you imagine people going and spending time with a coach, and they're there at their two their second or their third time, and they're still talking about the same thing.
Ray Sanders:And it's like, what do I need to do? And the and the coach is like, well, I'm not gonna tell you. I'm going to be very legalistic, and you just have to figure it out. I'm gonna ask you enough questions and you'll get there. Oh my word.
Ray Sanders:Oh. Shoot me. Yeah. That is no way. I care about you too much.
Ray Sanders:Yeah. We're I'm gonna dig in with you. Yeah. And we're gonna we're gonna figure this out together. I'm not I don't have all the answers.
Ray Sanders:Yeah. But between you and me and the Lord and all of our other resources, I bet you we can make a make a dent in helping you reach your full potential.
Tom Matthem:Well, I think about it this way. When you said that analogy, which a lot of people use, right, you can lead a horse to the water, but you can't force it to drink. But you can show it how to drink. Mhmm. You can you can be an example.
Tom Matthem:Yeah. You can tell it what it needs to do. Sure. You can't force it. Yeah.
Tom Matthem:But just taking it to the water and saying, alright. I've brought you to the water. I'm just gonna leave. We don't we don't we don't do that. Right?
Ray Sanders:Get out the mud, bro. Get out of the mud. The water's over here.
Tom Matthem:Exactly. Come over here. Let me show you. Here's how I drink the water. Here's what you can do.
Tom Matthem:Yeah. So I think that's very important is you listen. And from listening and and and and hearing what they're saying, then you're coming up with strategies that, again, are contextual
Ray Sanders:Mhmm.
Tom Matthem:And that are readily applicable. Yeah. Right? So I I don't wanna tell them something that they can't do or they can't reach. Here's what you can apply right away so that you can start getting yourself moving forward.
Tom Matthem:We're about progress. Totally. We're about moving
Ray Sanders:forward. Reaching your full potential.
Tom Matthem:Yep. Let let me I want you to hit on this, Ray, because I think this is important. The the style of coaching, I like how you have kind of Mhmm. Labeled it and kind of I've kind of created a style or format for coaching, that we like to talk about at edify leaders. You wanna hit on that?
Ray Sanders:Well, here's the thing. I think that, I would sum it up in one word. If if you are going to be a part of the movement, if you're gonna be a part of the edified leaders movement and you're gonna really fulfill the miniatures manifesto, if you're gonna get real with your coach, we have to have a hot relationship. Hot. Hot.
Tom Matthem:H
Ray Sanders:o t. That sounds a little funny, and it even puts a smile on your face. But the the truth is here, we wanna be honest, open, and transparent. Yep. If you can't be honest with your coach, he can't help you.
Ray Sanders:Yeah. You gotta get real.
Tom Matthem:It's
Ray Sanders:good. It's like going into the doctor. You know? You don't you don't tell the doctor, well, I think an aspirin will cover it. He says, no, bro.
Ray Sanders:That's an all out infection. I bend over. You're getting the penicillin shot. You gotta be honest. What are you doing to get that that infection?
Ray Sanders:So you gotta be honest. You have to be open. And that's a big one. Open to what? How about this?
Ray Sanders:Being teachable. Open to being coached. A lot of ministers, a lot of CEOs, a lot of leaders, They're leaders for a reason. They've come up the ladder. They've learned.
Ray Sanders:And sometimes it's a little bit humbling to think, oh, maybe I do have something to learn. One of the greatest pieces of advice that I can give someone is to be a lifelong learner. So be open. I had a pastor's wife challenge me one time because I don't have the same level of ministry in the pulpit pastoring. I got ministry experience, but not the same as some of our coaches.
Ray Sanders:Some of our coaches that if I leaders are giants in in in preaching and pastoring. That's not me. What I bring to the table is leadership in a growth mindset. And I had a pastor's wife say to me, why would my husband want to spend time with you? You've never been a senior pastor of a church.
Ray Sanders:And I said, well, thank you very much, ma'am. You know what? You're right. I said, but here's what I know. How many of the pastors you know, whether they've been to seminary or bible college, have ever had more than one class, maybe one class on leadership?
Tom Matthem:Yep. Absolutely.
Ray Sanders:And I said, it's amazing to me. Now we're starting to see more and more of it. There's our universities are beginning to do it and I love it. I can name them by name, but we won't. The leadership is becoming more obvious.
Ray Sanders:You know, we just yeah, you're a leader. Okay. Thanks. What's that mean? What's it mean to be a leader?
Ray Sanders:Yep. And so I said, I've spent my better part of my career teaching people how to be leaders and leading companies myself, hundreds of people in organization, multimillion dollar organizations. I have learned in my track record proves that I'm not trying to be arrogant, but my track record proves I got a pretty good track record. I think I know how to lead. And I said, I'm not saying your husband doesn't know how to lead, but you know, what's ironic is the greatest leader that ever lived was Jesus.
Ray Sanders:Yep. But we don't unpack his leadership. And here's the thing that's interesting about that. Most people that talk about Jesus' leadership style, if you ask them, why was Jesus' leadership style? You know what they'll say?
Ray Sanders:Well, Jesus was a servant leader.
Tom Matthem:Yeah, right.
Ray Sanders:You what, Tom? They're not wrong. He was a servant leader. That's true. But that was the outcome.
Tom Matthem:Yes.
Ray Sanders:And so what is the role of a leader? The role of a leader. And guess who modeled that for us? Jesus. You know, a lot of times when I ask people what what's the role of a leader?
Ray Sanders:They'll say, well, is the role is to give have vision. Number two is to lead, and number three is to be a servant leader. Those are the three that come up the most. And I say, that's great. Those are the outcome.
Ray Sanders:But the real role of a leader, Jesus modeled for us in Matthew 28. He said, go and do what? Make disciples. Right. Is to duplicate yourself.
Ray Sanders:And so the real role of the leader is to duplicate yourself. But here's the thing, and this is where she starts to get it. Am I a leader worth duplicating? Hey, pastor's wife. You know what your husband's like at home.
Ray Sanders:You're only as good as leader as you are at home. Mhmm. Do you want your pastor's staff and the people he's leading to duplicate his life? And she knows that he's not a perfect man. And now she's starting to think, maybe he does need some leadership coaching.
Ray Sanders:And and maybe I don't care that you've not let a senior pastor level. Maybe there's something that you can share with him. It's because what we see is Jesus says, is go and make disciples. And what's another word for that? Go and duplicate me.
Tom Matthem:Right.
Ray Sanders:And he's and we see that in the life of Paul. Paul says, imitate me as I've imitated Christ. Yep. And so that's what we want is we want a leader worth following, leader worth duplicating because leadership is not about position. Leadership is about influence.
Ray Sanders:The one word that describes a leader is influence.
Tom Matthem:That's good.
Ray Sanders:And just because you have a position or a title, that doesn't make you a leader. What makes you a leader is influence. Yeah. And so we have to be hot. That's good.
Ray Sanders:We have to be in a position to where that that pastor is is open Yeah. To that. Honest, open, and then transparent. Yep. And that's just another way.
Ray Sanders:You know? Honest is one thing. Yep. But transparent means I have nothing to hide. Yep.
Ray Sanders:I'm I'm honest, but now I'm gonna go I'm gonna I'm gonna give you all the story. Yep. Fully transparent. Full disclosure. Right.
Ray Sanders:Full disclosure. I can say, yeah. I my my wife and I aren't getting along. Yep. That's honest.
Ray Sanders:Right. That's transparent. We haven't had sex in three months. Got it. Woah.
Ray Sanders:Woah. Did Ray just say that on a yeah. Yeah. Because that's you know what? You have pastors that are sleeping on couches.
Ray Sanders:Mhmm. I I think I might have an alcohol problem. Really? Well, how much are you drinking? Well, I'm not only drinking.
Ray Sanders:I'm also taking prescription drugs, and I'm getting real. And I and I I I've been calling in sick on some Sundays because I'm wasted. That's transparency. Right. Hot, honest, open, and transparent.
Ray Sanders:And so our whole deal our whole deal here is to strengthen ministers. I I want I want people to hear that. We wanna strengthen them. It's not just about being healthy. It's about being strong.
Ray Sanders:Because if a minister is strong, the local church, the local ministry
Tom Matthem:Yep.
Ray Sanders:It is it is the the centerpiece, and that minister is leading the the charge. He is the x factor for exponential impact. That's good. Think about it. You can give to a lot of things.
Ray Sanders:I can give you United Way. I can give to the American Red Cross. I can give to a lot of things. I can give the local church. But what if your local church doesn't have a healthy minister, a strong minister?
Ray Sanders:Part of what edifying leaders does is our our appeal is help us keep ministers strong because when he's strong, he's duplicatable. And then that that leader will lead all the other ministries in the church. That's good. The the soup kitchen, the the adoption ministry Yep. The ministry to senior adults.
Ray Sanders:I mean, now it's exponential. Right. But take him
Tom Matthem:out. Right.
Ray Sanders:Take that strong leader out. Make it a weak leader. Yep. We've seen all of it. We've all seen weak leaders.
Ray Sanders:Yep. And what's the result? Weakness. Yep. No no power.
Ray Sanders:No impact. And so we gotta keep that leader strong.
Tom Matthem:I love that.
Ray Sanders:Keep that leader strong so it'll be exponential. And and the and the good news is is that, we have people that come alongside us. That's something that, you know, people aren't paying us. Ministers aren't paying us. And we have we have donors, people out there that believe in what we do.
Ray Sanders:Do we have enough of them? Tom, no.
Tom Matthem:No.
Ray Sanders:We don't have enough. The truth is we could do so much more if we it's it's just it's just a matter of money.
Tom Matthem:The need is greater than the funds to support it. Yep.
Ray Sanders:And and so the the opportunity for people to give to something that has exponential impact is huge to edify leaders. And I'm not just saying that. I truly believe that. As a chairman of the board, I truly believe that from the bottom of my heart. Our the impact of our ministry, first and foremost, is probably weighed by our our prayer and our calling on Lord to lead us.
Ray Sanders:But it's also we couldn't do this without people that believe in what we're doing.
Tom Matthem:No. I love it. Two things I I wanna hit on real fast. You talked about the approach is hot, honest, open, transparent. And what that means is there's a vulnerability that's involved there.
Tom Matthem:And vulnerability is not weakness. It actually strengthens you. Right? But the the problem is with a lot of ministers, they don't have a space where they can be vulnerable. So they can't say the things that you talked about Mhmm.
Tom Matthem:With parishioners, with laypeople, with people in their small group. I could even be a small group leader as a pastor or minister, but there's only a level of openness that I can get to. Totally. So when we're able to come alongside and have coaches that are there where we can say, no. No.
Tom Matthem:We really tell us everything. Right? And we mean that. They are not used to it, but think about the healing that comes when they have a space where they can really lay it out all on the table. Because, I I love the illustration of going to the doctor.
Tom Matthem:You know, if you don't tell the doctor all the symptoms that you have, then they're not gonna be able to take care of you the way that you need to be taken care of.
Ray Sanders:Let's talk about the doctor for a minute because I have clients that actually I have signed forms with their doctor, the HEPA forms that I can know as much about them as they know about them Oh. From their doctor. Why? Because they trust me so much that they want me to know what's going on in their life. Mhmm.
Ray Sanders:And so I have I have signed that I can I have that have that ability? Yeah. And so but you know what else I know? You wanna talk about doctors? I know of some ministers that are seeing psychologists in addition to me.
Ray Sanders:And they're they're getting through deep depression. Oh. They are on antidepressants, and they don't stay on them necessarily. But that's the level people my pastor's on antidepressants. Yeah.
Ray Sanders:He is probably more more than you know. And now you're ready for this? More than one. Did you hear what I said? More than one minister has thanked me in saying this.
Ray Sanders:If I hadn't met you and if I hadn't had an opportunity to be a part of edify leaders, I don't know if I would be here. Now no. Hear me. I what I'm saying is, I mean, not in ministry. I'm talking about on the planet gone.
Ray Sanders:I'm talking about I'm talking about suicidal. I I don't know what I'm gonna do. I'm so ashamed of what I've done. I've had such a failure. I've been so stupid, or I just can't handle it anymore.
Ray Sanders:I'm done. And with tears in their eyes, I remember saying, thank you. And that's not a thank you just to me. That's a thank you to all of the people that believe in what we do.
Tom Matthem:That's good. I love that. I love that. And I think all of our coaches to some extent have heard something along those lines.
Ray Sanders:Sure.
Tom Matthem:It's because you were there, because you stood in the gap, because you said I'd come alongside you, that's the reason I'm continuing to move forward. Mhmm. So there's a vulnerability component. And then something else that you hit on is the idea of donors. You know, one of the things is to do something like this again.
Tom Matthem:This is not a burden to ministers. We want this to be a blessing, and we wanna be able to reach as many ministers as we can through what we believe the Lord has put in our hands to steward and take care of. But what makes that possible is donors coming alongside and saying, hey. We'll take care of the costs associated with this. We'll take care of the coaching funds that are necessary to make this happen.
Tom Matthem:And so here's what I would just put out there. If you're if you're listening and you know of someone that has that that that that desire to come alongside and be a part of something like this. Maybe it's someone in your congregation, someone that you know, someone that you've heard of, that you know that this is something that they would be passionate about. I would encourage you to let them know. Tell them to go to edifyleaders.org.
Tom Matthem:We actually have a page specifically for people that are interested in being a part financially, giving and being a donor and being involved at that level. And so I would just say, I would just put that out there is, hey. We wanna continue this, but we our mission is to reach more And to reach more, that involves more funds. And we know, hey. That's available there.
Tom Matthem:We just wanna tap into all that's out there.
Ray Sanders:Here's the amazing thing. We used to, really try to hide, not hide. We didn't we kept it in strict confidence as to who we were serving. And you know what the pastor started saying, the ministers are saying? Why aren't can I say something?
Ray Sanders:I'm like, would you want to? Are you kidding, man? I want everybody needs to know about what edify leaders is doing in my life. And here's the thing. We serve as an accountability partner to them too.
Ray Sanders:If I have a pastor in my life or minister in my life, I wanna I wanna know that they have somebody like head of high leaders in my life that's fiercely fiercely holding them accountable. We don't mess around. Yep. We're you know, I don't want our pastors in the headlines. Yeah.
Ray Sanders:Right. You know what I mean?
Tom Matthem:100%.
Ray Sanders:And and those guys that are in the headlines, I promise you Mhmm. Most of them are isolated. Yeah. They got isolated, they got idle, and they got one they wandered off into idolatry because they were they were not, engaged with somebody helping them along the way.
Tom Matthem:Are you are you sure you're not a preacher? Isolated idol leads to idolatry. I'm telling you, there there's a there's a preacher inside of you, my friend.
Ray Sanders:I'm telling you. I've I've done my fair share of preaching.
Tom Matthem:That's for sure. Well
Ray Sanders:Here here's the other thing I'd say just in in the line of that. I I know we have it down to talk about. But so what's it cost? So what's it cost? What's it cost a donor?
Ray Sanders:For as little as a $100 a month Mhmm. You can sponsor a a pastor for a year. That gives them one on one Yeah. Confidential coaching for as little as a $100 a month. Yeah.
Ray Sanders:That that's less than counseling. Yeah. I mean, that's amazing. Yep. Now that doesn't mean everybody can afford $100.
Ray Sanders:But guess what? We've had people who've given way more than
Tom Matthem:that. Yep.
Ray Sanders:I'm talking a 100 and a thousand times more than that. Mhmm. Do the math. Yeah. A $100,000.
Ray Sanders:We have people who 10,000, $20,000. I wanna I wanna I you need more money to do this? I'm all behind you. And there's people out there who will be listening to this who have that capacity or know people who have that capacity. Yep.
Ray Sanders:Let me tell you. Our overhead is so low. We're at, like, 95% of it goes to program. Like, the 5% goes to the website. Yeah.
Ray Sanders:I mean, you know, all of our I mean, we don't even have technically an office that all of us meet at. We have an office downtown, and and it's actually provided to us by a businessman. So we don't have to pay for it. Yeah. I mean and so our our cost, if you wanna talk about a ministry that uses every dime, every penny, this ministry does that.
Ray Sanders:Yeah. We do some brochures from time to time, and we have a website that we have to keep up to date. But most of the money, the lion's share, I I don't know the latest numbers. It's anywhere from 95 to you know, it's high Yeah. Of every dollar goes to serve ministers in this capacity.
Ray Sanders:Yep.
Tom Matthem:So let me let me ask you this, Ray. We've got the coaching. That that is edify leaders right there. And that's what we've been doing. You said it started in 02/2009, and it's only continued to grow.
Tom Matthem:Mhmm. And when you go to the website, you can see the coaches that are on there. You can see what we're doing. But we're doing a podcast. What is this about?
Tom Matthem:Why are you why are we doing a podcast?
Ray Sanders:You know, we've done this for a while now. And these these there are these reoccurring themes. And we live in a day and age. I someone challenged me. Here's here's what motivated this.
Ray Sanders:I had someone challenge me, and and she said to me, Ray, you're not stewarding your influence. And this is applied to me in a lot of ways.
Tom Matthem:You do a lot. Right? So to hear, you're not stewarding your influence. You're going, I'm but I'm doing all this work. I'm doing Yeah.
Tom Matthem:Everything.
Ray Sanders:Well but it's stewarding doesn't mean that you're not doing a lot. It's how well are you doing it. Right?
Tom Matthem:Really good.
Ray Sanders:And so I have I have several things that I had been doing, and I'm continuing to do those things. I appreciate you noticing. And God's my brain I mean, I just it's just full of ideas and content. It's just the way that God designed me. But I don't I'm not a I'm not a solo artist.
Ray Sanders:I like being in a band. Mhmm. Yep. I'm I'm not a I'm not a piano player. I'm I'm the guy that wants to, you know, share in the the full orchestra.
Ray Sanders:Well, in our coaches meetings, we began realizing these reoccurring themes. And I thought, we need to we need to capture that. Yep. We need to capture those themes and we need to it's one thing. We can meet one on one and we can meet with a 100 plus pastors and we can pour into them and that there's nothing wrong with that.
Ray Sanders:But why not take the things that we're talking about, put them into a podcast. And Tom, we will be taking that podcast and turning it into the winning in ministry book so that we can literally share it all around the world. And we're not we're gonna make it available.
Tom Matthem:Yep.
Ray Sanders:It'll probably be in an ebook, a PDF. We're not out to make money off this. Yep. Our goal is impact. We want strong ministers.
Ray Sanders:And we think that we have 21 or so topics that we can make available through podcast Yep. Through written form, and through one on one in person coaching.
Tom Matthem:Yeah. Because here's the deal. At the end of the day, it's a matter of strengthening ministers around the world, making helping ministers be all that they can be and all God has called them to be. So for us, it's not just limiting ourselves to one avenue. We recognize coaching.
Tom Matthem:That's the main thrust of what we do. But now we're in a season where we're looking and saying, but that's not all. Like, that's that's actually putting a lid. What can we do to take that lid off and expand what God has given us? And that's kind of the season that we're in.
Tom Matthem:And the podcast, this is here. What else does God have? We're just continuing to lean into that and say, God, as you have different avenues and opportunities, our end goal is for there to be strong pastors and strong ministry leaders. That's our end goal.
Ray Sanders:And if I were gonna take a biblical character and sum up that biblical character and to edify leaders, it would be Barnabas. Yeah. At the end of the day
Tom Matthem:I like that.
Ray Sanders:We're trying to encourage strength. We're trying to encourage people to be their best. We're trying to edify Yep. Leaders.
Tom Matthem:In the name.
Ray Sanders:Well, that's what it's all about. We're trying to edify. You know, don't grow weary from doing good. We're trying to edify every leader out there. We're trying to let them know, man, we believe in you.
Ray Sanders:God believes in you. Yep. The people in your church believe in you. The people in your ministry believe in you. Keep up the good faith.
Ray Sanders:Fight the good fight, you know, and and stick with it. We need you. We need you strong. Yep. Don't be embarrassed about, you know, your strongholds.
Ray Sanders:We're here for you. There is nothing At this point, doing this as long as I've done it Mhmm. There is nothing that would make my mouth drop. I have heard it all. Between my commercial clients and my ministry clients Yep.
Ray Sanders:I have heard it all. Mhmm. And people go, really? No. Really.
Ray Sanders:Yeah. And that's what edify leaders is all about, coming alongside ministers in life and ministry, helping them navigate the challenges that they face, and how helping them succeed. Dare I say, helping them win in ministry.
Tom Matthem:No. That's really good. And, you know, Ray, I think one of the things that would be good to also mention is, as we go into these upcoming episodes Mhmm. You're gonna be hearing from seasoned ministers. These are coaches that we have that are on our team, but these are seasoned ministers.
Tom Matthem:I think when we calculated it, it's almost three hundred years of experience is what it is. Right? Everything from denominational leaders to pastoring large churches, small churches, rural city. I mean, you've got the whole gamut that's there. International pastors.
Ray Sanders:We have an international pastor. We've got people with a background in youth ministry, singles ministry. We have a team that I am so proud of. People can see the team on our on our website. We have females.
Ray Sanders:We have males. We have people with white skin, light skin, dark skin
Tom Matthem:Deeper tans.
Ray Sanders:Deeper tans, sunburns. I mean, we we got it all.
Tom Matthem:Well, and I think that's the beauty of it. We're we're showing even in our, coaching team the diversity of ministers that are there. Right. You know? And it's again, God's key called us to reach Jerusalem, Judea to the ends of the earth, and that's what we're doing.
Tom Matthem:And we are we like to say we're behind the scenes of the frontline warriors.
Ray Sanders:That's right.
Tom Matthem:So we're not that's what we wanna do, and we're we're happy to serve and come alongside, and we wanna continue that mission. And this, through this podcast, that is our prayer.
Ray Sanders:That
Tom Matthem:every listener on the other end, they're encouraged. We even called it winning in ministry, not the barely making it in ministry podcast. Alright? Getting along. Just surviving ministry podcast brought to you by no.
Tom Matthem:We want you to be winning in ministry. God's got incredible plans for you, and we want to be a part of fanning that flame so that you can be who God has called you to be. And so as we bring the plane in for a landing on this first episode, Ray, I'm excited about the journey.
Ray Sanders:Tom, it's gonna be great. I I owe a big credit to you for saying, let's do this, and it's gonna be fun. I love being with you personally. It's gonna be even more fun to help our coaches unpack all these great insights that they have to bring to our our ministers.
Tom Matthem:Well, Ray, we are in for a ride. I love doing this with you. We're gonna be on a great journey, and I wanna invite those that are tuning in to this first episode. Thank you, but we're just getting started. So join us for the ride.
Tom Matthem:We'll be dropping episodes regularly so you can tune in and keep growing stronger as well on our website at edifyleaders.org. Make sure you check that out. We've got resources that are there. We've got tools to help you that you can test, you can take resources brought to you by the Ray Sanders coaching. And and and it's it's again, we're gonna continually be putting content on there because our end goal is to help ministers win in ministry.
Tom Matthem:So edify leaders, the winning in ministry podcast, that's what you can be a part of.
Ray Sanders:Here's what they need to do. They need to subscribe. They need to hit like. They need to share it with others. And all I will say is this, Tom.
Ray Sanders:Until next time, keep winning in ministry.
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