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🎙️ THE Conversation is a monthly podcast that brings together diverse voices to engage in honest, courageous, and deeply relevant discussions about race and justice. Co-hosted by The Rev. Will Mebane and Onjalé Scott Price, this award-winning series was created by Falmouth Community Television (FCTV) to open dialogue and foster education on issues of racial equity—starting at the local level and rippling outward.
Each episode features panel discussions, community voices, and expert guests who explore how racism and bias shape our everyday lives across institutions such as education, healthcare, housing, religion, and more. With a focus on awareness, action, and community connection, THE Conversation aims to inspire lasting, meaningful change—one conversation at a time.
Originally launched in 2020, the show has received the Rika Welch Community Impact Award and continues to spark partnerships, elevate marginalized voices, and support anti-bias education throughout Cape Cod and beyond.
Listen and be part of THE Conversation—because change starts with listening.
00:00:20:27 - 00:00:27:23
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00:01:00:00 - 00:01:11:20
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00:01:11:23 - 00:01:39:14
Rev. Will Mebane
Hello, friends, and welcome to. What is the 25th edition of The Conversation here on FC TV. It's been a while since we've been with you, and we're glad to be back with you for what we think is going to be a very interesting, educational and informative show. So thank you for taking the time. Joined today as always by the wonderful, the magnificent, the marvelous.
00:01:39:19 - 00:02:16:29
Rev. Will Mebane
Yes, you, Angela Scott Price, co-host and co-producer here on The Conversation. So today's show is going to be about racism, which is always the focus of our conversations, but specifically racism in the military. Maybe that's something you've thought about. Maybe you haven't thought about. But we have two guests with us today who are going to share with us, their experiences of familiarity with racism in the military, its history, and whether or not things have changed.
00:02:17:03 - 00:02:46:10
Rev. Will Mebane
So before we introduce you to them, however, we want to share with you some comments from one of our people on the street responding to that question about the history of racism in the military. What was his experience like? So take a listen.
00:02:46:12 - 00:03:14:05
Darwin Phillips
I can't speak for the entire military, but, my father, all my uncles were Army, and, it was rough for them, you know? And then I found out that some of the things that were happening to them, during World War two, was still happening to, you know, guys like me in 1965. And, it was just rough, you know?
00:03:14:05 - 00:03:46:06
Darwin Phillips
I mean, you try to serve your country and the people you serving with don't want you there. You know, it was a weirdest thing. Just before I went aboard, they had a big contingency. Come aboard the ship from the deep South. You know, Mississippi, Arkansas. Just a bunch of ridge runners, basically. You know, and, that kind of explained it for them.
00:03:46:06 - 00:04:12:17
Darwin Phillips
They called themselves, Royal Order. The White Knights. And, I had no idea what that was, but they tried to, you know, they tried to get rid of me. Almost the whole time I was on that ship. But, it's so funny how life is because along with that group of guys came a group of guys.
00:04:12:20 - 00:04:41:29
Darwin Phillips
They weren't racist. They were just normal. Everyday guys. And it was them that would come and tell me when attack was getting ready to take place. So in their own group, they had guys that tried to save me. That water can get pretty cold out on the ocean station, you know, and you got like seconds to live and on many accounts, they tried to throw me overboard.
00:04:42:02 - 00:05:26:24
Darwin Phillips
They tried to slam my knee and, into a galley. Steel door. They got my hand instead. So I survived that. And, Gitmo, Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. One of them sucker shot at me. Broke my front tooth, and I'm sure he's still wearing my thumbs in his ear. So I figured to this day. But they sent me to the, the Navy, medical and, to this day, I can still taste the rust that was on the horse pliers that they used to take that tooth out.
00:05:26:27 - 00:05:56:07
Darwin Phillips
And then they sent me back to the ship. And when I got back to the ship, they made me sleep out on the bow in the rain with the woolen blanket. I wasn't even allowed back below decks. And, you know, even below deck shade, they'd give you a blanket party. You'd be sleeping, and all of a sudden, like, you know, they throw a blanket over your head and they just beat the crap out of you.
00:05:56:10 - 00:06:13:04
Darwin Phillips
And, I thank God, you know? He made me a big man, and I got through it. I suffered my way through it, and I just wasn't going to let them beat me. You know? So that's basically what the racism was like. 1965. What progress have you.
00:06:13:04 - 00:06:16:01
Unknown
Seen in the military since then?
00:06:16:03 - 00:06:36:18
Darwin Phillips
You know, the bottom line is they they kicked me around, injured me, made me feel like. I can't even tell you how they made me feel. And, I look back at it, it was. It was a journey, you know? It was a journey. And, should never happen to a 17 year old kid.
00:06:36:20 - 00:06:39:17
Darwin Phillips
You know?
00:06:39:19 - 00:07:25:05
Rev. Will Mebane
Wow. First of all, thank you, Darwin, for, that commentary. There's a lot to unpack there. I was really, mesmerized by what he was sharing. And, so now we're going to get into, hearing what our guests here in the studio have to say on the subject of the history of racism in the military, joined by two individuals well known to folks here in Falmouth, the other Cape, very active, both of them in the in the community, citizen of the year himself, Mister Jay Zavala, who was, named says citizen of the year by the Falmouth Chamber of Commerce just last year.
00:07:25:07 - 00:07:29:13
Rev. Will Mebane
And, Jay, we're delighted to have you with us in the studio here for the conversation to.
00:07:29:13 - 00:07:30:19
Jay Zavala
Be with you.
00:07:30:21 - 00:07:53:22
Rev. Will Mebane
And, I got a chance to meet, Jay for the first time in person at the Veterans Day breakfast hosted, that he hosted and emceed at the, Flying Bridge. And that's where I got to meet our next guest. Joe. Yukina, who is, heading up the efforts to that? I get it right. Wrong.
00:07:53:22 - 00:07:55:01
Rev. Will Mebane
How did I do it?
00:07:55:03 - 00:07:55:19
Joe Yukna
It's your.
00:07:55:19 - 00:08:00:10
Rev. Will Mebane
But you're not. You're gonna. Okay, I want to get it right so.
00:08:00:10 - 00:08:02:21
Joe Yukna
It won't be yucky here.
00:08:02:23 - 00:08:03:04
Rev. Will Mebane
That's a good.
00:08:03:04 - 00:08:03:10
Onjalé Scott Price
One.
00:08:03:16 - 00:08:04:11
Joe Yukna
Like Youkilis.
00:08:04:13 - 00:08:29:01
Rev. Will Mebane
You you, doctor, you've done, who is involved with the, Cape Cod Military Museum? And it was actually, Joe's speech that you gave that morning that really got my attention. I know I got yours as well, and and, I don't often ask people for copies of their speeches. Like, people don't ask me for copies of my sermon.
00:08:29:03 - 00:08:50:00
Rev. Will Mebane
No, but, you had some very interesting things to say in that speech about, what happened here on Cape Cod, in regards to the military and racism. And, so I don't know if you remember that that story, but I'd like to ask you if you would share a little bit more about it, if you if you can.
00:08:50:01 - 00:09:24:24
Joe Yukna
Sure. Camp Edwards was home of the Yankee Division, but at the start of World War Two, they went out and were in the coastal defense. So the base was open for other units to come and train and so forth. During my research on the Yankee Division, luckily they are a less racist division than a lot of the other Army units out there, but the base itself was run by a cadre of officers from the south, and they, enforced segregation on the base.
00:09:24:27 - 00:09:47:29
Joe Yukna
In fact, if you were a white officer assigned to a colored unit because they were colored units on the base, and I'm using the word color because that's the historical term at the time. You as a white officer couldn't go to an officer's club, because you were contaminated, because you work with black soldiers. And this wasn't your choice or whatever.
00:09:47:29 - 00:10:16:21
Joe Yukna
You were assigned to this unit. Then later on in, late 43, we had German prisoners of war. And one of the best jobs for an enlisted man on the base was a waiter at an at the officer's club. Because you get an hourly wage, plus tips. Well, they wouldn't let African-Americans wait tables and bartend at the officer's club, but they let German POW.
00:10:16:24 - 00:10:17:12
Rev. Will Mebane
Nazis.
00:10:17:14 - 00:10:40:29
Joe Yukna
Nazis, from the Afrika Korps that were captured in 43 and Tunisia. And that almost caused a race riot because they couldn't believe we were using that same uniform. We're risking our lives, and you won't let us even wait on your tables. The base commander ended it. I don't know whether it's. He let African Americans wait, or whether he just stopped the Germans from waiting on tables.
00:10:40:29 - 00:10:44:25
Joe Yukna
But he had he had to make a decision on that.
00:10:44:27 - 00:10:52:06
Rev. Will Mebane
So it always takes one person with the courage, to do what is right. And sounds like that was a situation.
00:10:52:08 - 00:11:11:29
Joe Yukna
Well, I think he was. His hand was forced. Probably more than, he wanted to because of that. One of the interesting things you, if you run into things in life by accident, I was reading a book just because it had a dog in it. The soldier who wagged your tail, but an African American who had a dog.
00:11:12:02 - 00:11:40:03
Joe Yukna
Well, it turns out he was in the 369th, which was, the Harlem Hellfighters in War one. But they had become a coastal artillery unit in World War two, and they were become an anti-aircraft, training unit by 1942. And they were doing their training on the Cape. Cape Cod was home to the Anti-Aircraft Training Command's, one of the largest anti-aircraft training facilities in World War Two.
00:11:40:03 - 00:12:03:13
Joe Yukna
In America. So he was on leave in New York, because again, they were from the Harlem, New York area and Pearl Harbor happened and he, rushed back to Camp Edwards, and they brought their 40 million guns out to guard the bridges to make everybody feel safe. But in his book, he says it was all a show because they didn't give him any ammunition.
00:12:03:16 - 00:12:04:16
Joe Yukna
Right. It was.
00:12:04:18 - 00:12:04:27
Onjalé Scott Price
Theater.
00:12:05:04 - 00:12:06:16
Rev. Will Mebane
But. Yeah.
00:12:06:18 - 00:12:14:19
Joe Yukna
But, the gentleman was talking about, them wanting to kill him on the boat, forget his name, that the Coast Guard,
00:12:14:22 - 00:12:15:10
Rev. Will Mebane
Oh, Darwin.
00:12:15:15 - 00:12:40:23
Joe Yukna
Darwin there in his book. Later on, when he's in France, his commanding officer didn't like him, and he was a truck driver in the Red Ball Express and stuff like that. So he kept sending him on routes and missions that brought him into the German lines. He was trying to get him killed. And the, his dog actually saved his life because he alerted him to a German approach and his truck and so forth and so on.
00:12:40:23 - 00:12:48:24
Joe Yukna
But, that's how bad the race literally trying to, send him to his death.
00:12:48:26 - 00:12:59:11
Rev. Will Mebane
So, Joe, your, exposure to racism in the military comes primarily from your work in researching history and studying and what have you. Right.
00:12:59:13 - 00:13:31:08
Joe Yukna
Well, that in, my son, his, battle buddy in boot camp was, was an African American, and his first deployment is battle. But he was an African American, so things have gotten better, at least in my family. You know, like, I can't say for the rest, but, compared to what it was like in World War two, the amount of, you know, they were segregated units were, mainly commanded by white officers with black troops.
00:13:31:11 - 00:14:13:24
Joe Yukna
And, the war, too, was a great impetus for change in America prior to World War two, 80% of the African-Americans lived south of the Mason-Dixon line, and 72% of male African-Americans were sharecroppers. And I think 90% of African-American men who worked were domestic servants. And with the threatened march, I think you and 42 of the African-Americans on Washington, FDR was forced to open up, defense jobs.
00:14:13:24 - 00:14:21:18
Joe Yukna
And if you had a federal contract, you had to be have to have African-Americans. And that led a huge exodus to northern cities to take over the industry.
00:14:21:20 - 00:14:40:17
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah. I'm going to talk with you. We want to talk with you a little bit more because you've got some interesting stories to share about, people like Joe Louis and, Jackie Robinson who who serve their country. But I'm going to turn to you next, A.J.. So, you were you're a veteran yourself.
00:14:40:20 - 00:14:41:04
Jay Zavala
I am.
00:14:41:11 - 00:14:43:00
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah. And, what branch
00:14:43:00 - 00:14:44:20
Jay Zavala
Army.
00:14:44:23 - 00:14:51:04
Rev. Will Mebane
So, what has been your experience? What have you seen in terms of racism in the military?
00:14:51:06 - 00:15:26:24
Jay Zavala
Well, it's complex. Well, I served in the army during the Vietnam era. Fortunately, I didn't go to Vietnam. I went to Europe instead. And so my experiences that I had then and then my interest and what was happening in Vietnam, kept me engaged. And the dialog that was happening here at home. I served in the Army from 63 through 66.
00:15:26:27 - 00:15:32:07
Jay Zavala
You'll remember that in 67, Muhammad Ali refused to go into the military.
00:15:32:13 - 00:15:34:10
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, I remember, yes.
00:15:34:13 - 00:16:08:24
Jay Zavala
What most Americans living here at the time don't remember was the ripple effect that it had across the globe, and particularly to servicemen around the world. So the tensions that were racial and nature on enlisting were exacerbated by what was happening here at home. And so there was that continual dialog about why am I serving a country that doesn't serve me?
00:16:08:26 - 00:16:10:09
Rev. Will Mebane
Yes. Yes.
00:16:10:11 - 00:16:31:21
Jay Zavala
Now, I grew up in the southwest. No one ever, accused me of being white, but no one ever accused me of being anything. And usually ask Jay, are you what are you, the Filipinos would ask me, Hawaiians would ask me, Asians would ask. And of course, Native Americans would ask, what are you?
00:16:31:23 - 00:16:32:21
Rev. Will Mebane
So what are you?
00:16:32:23 - 00:16:33:10
Jay Zavala
So I.
00:16:33:10 - 00:16:33:28
Jay Zavala
Am.
00:16:34:01 - 00:16:37:11
Jay Zavala
Indigenous to the to the to the Americas.
00:16:37:12 - 00:16:38:04
Rev. Will Mebane
00:16:39:05 - 00:17:08:09
Jay Zavala
And Spanish. But in that exchange, I also had, a wide pathway into just about every click, every clan, every organization. I was just invited as a young boy, my mother said good things happen to people who show up. And so she would push me in different directions. And you want to learn about this. You want to learn about that.
00:17:08:11 - 00:17:25:13
Jay Zavala
You want to meet a reverend. There you go. You have to talk to Angelique, you know. And so I got to know the leaders of the community and, and I got to stand back and do, like, all children. Watch, lesson, learn and learn.
00:17:25:13 - 00:17:26:05
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah.
00:17:26:07 - 00:17:56:17
Jay Zavala
So I was aware when I enlisted at the age of 18 that there was racial tensions in the military, but I'd never experienced them until basic training and onward. And as an observer, depending on where I was stationed, that was, demonstrated, you know, kids would go off base and come back in and be beat up because they'd gone to the wrong bar or the wrong neighborhood.
00:17:56:20 - 00:18:24:04
Jay Zavala
And so my interaction with everybody, of all races was benign. It was I was curious, what do you do? What do you come from? Where do you live? What do you do, what are your hobbies and so forth. So, I didn't run into any overt, blatant racism until about a year after I enlisted.
00:18:24:07 - 00:18:58:29
Jay Zavala
I was stationed in Germany at the time, and there was conflict between two floors of soldiers on one floor there. They were infantry, soldiers on the other floor that I lived on. We were all in communications, and it was fixed station communications. So while the lower floor would put on steel pots and backpacks, we would put on class A uniforms and ties and go into an air conditioned office.
00:18:59:02 - 00:19:37:27
Jay Zavala
And it was a major communication center around the world. And it led me to, my work as a cryptographer led me to embassies around Europe. And so it gave me a wonderful exposure to the continent. And the attitudes of the Europeans, particularly German, with regards to racism. There was a carryover from World War, two, where the English and the German got along very well with the American, black soldiers.
00:19:38:00 - 00:20:10:07
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, you share two things that remind me a bit of my own personal history, which, I hope you'll allow me to, to share the first, as you were talking about, enlisting and, and the ripple effect of Muhammad Ali and how that started to make more and more young African Americans question, why am I going to enlist in the military that doesn't, protect me, right?
00:20:10:10 - 00:20:22:29
Rev. Will Mebane
And my dad, I want it to be a, I grew up when I was in junior high school. I want to be a second lieutenant in the Marines. I thought that would be the coolest thing in the world. What are you specific? And that was very specific, right.
00:20:23:01 - 00:20:23:21
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, but then.
00:20:23:21 - 00:20:50:08
Rev. Will Mebane
I learned the second lieutenants were among the most killed in the Vietnam War. So maybe that wasn't a don't have a death wish. But, but I went to my father and I before I did, I did research, and I decided I was going to try to get into one of the academies. So I got catalogs in those days were catalogs from, you know, the, from West Point, from, Air Force Academy, from Annapolis.
00:20:50:10 - 00:21:13:06
Rev. Will Mebane
And I was beginning to prepare to ask my congressional representative to write letters of support for me and what have you. And I went to my father and I said, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to enlist, and I'm going to go to one of the academies. And he stopped me. Very seldom did my father say no to anything that my siblings and I wanted to do.
00:21:13:09 - 00:21:45:19
Rev. Will Mebane
But that day he said to me, you're not doing that. And I thought, what? He never says no. And he said, no son of mine is going to enlist in the military to go fight in some foreign country for the rights and privileges and freedoms for somebody else that they don't have in their own country. And that stopped me dead in my tracks, and it turned me around.
00:21:45:26 - 00:22:10:24
Rev. Will Mebane
Turn me away from seeing myself in uniform as a second lieutenant to and, taking another course. And then your mention of Germany. I went to Germany as an exchange student, spent a year there after high school, and I used to go to this, with my buddies after school. We would go to this Hofbrauhaus to, have a few and, and have some wiener sit still or something.
00:22:10:24 - 00:22:38:23
Rev. Will Mebane
After after school and, did that for, I don't know, 6 or 7 months. And then one day the owner of the restaurant came and said, you can't come in anymore. Like what? You maybe I come here almost every day. What do you mean? I can't come in? The captain at the base in Germany had said to him, if you let that N-word.
00:22:38:26 - 00:22:43:15
Rev. Will Mebane
Come in here, I will make your restaurant off limits for my my guys.
00:22:43:19 - 00:22:47:11
Onjalé Scott Price
Wow.
00:22:47:14 - 00:22:51:25
Rev. Will Mebane
And so I had to stop going to that restaurant.
00:22:51:28 - 00:22:53:13
Jay Zavala
Right. And what year was that?
00:22:53:13 - 00:23:08:16
Rev. Will Mebane
But that would've been 1970. Yeah. 1970. So we can reminisce more. But I want to ask Angela if she she wants to get in on the conversation a year and prove something of our guest.
00:23:08:20 - 00:23:32:27
Onjalé Scott Price
Well, this has been heavy already, you know, and I'm thinking about the speech that you gave at the veterans event. And I remember going home and and saying to my husband, we have to have him on the show like we have we have to talk about this. It was and I still feel the same way, like we need to continue having this conversation because I don't think people recognize that there's racism in the military and that there's probably still some that exists.
00:23:32:27 - 00:23:46:04
Onjalé Scott Price
I don't have any personal experience with it, although I was actually in ROTC in college. I went to college thinking I was going to be an aerospace engineer, and I was going to be a Navy fighter pilot. Didn't do either of those things.
00:23:46:06 - 00:23:47:11
Rev. Will Mebane
Also very specific.
00:23:47:12 - 00:24:07:02
Onjalé Scott Price
Also very specific, very specific. But I did ROTC for a year and I really enjoyed it. And I was offered a scholarship, and I and I had to decide than if I was going to stay or not. And I remember being in my one of my ROTC classes, and it was around the time that I had to make this decision, and we were watching some videos.
00:24:07:02 - 00:24:27:27
Onjalé Scott Price
I don't even remember what class it was, and we watched the bomb drop on Nagasaki. I think it was, and I realized that I was the only person in the room not cheering. And I thought, yeah, I can't, I can't do this, I can't participate in this. And so that's why I ultimately chose not not to pursue. I wanted I wanted to serve, I wanted to serve my community.
00:24:27:27 - 00:24:47:08
Onjalé Scott Price
And then I didn't do it that way. I chose I chose other ways to do that. So, you know, I often wonder if that bomb had been dropped on a country in Europe. Would the would it be different? Would have come across different to people? Would they have, but they not have been so excited to see it? I just feel like there was so much wrong with it.
00:24:47:08 - 00:24:51:16
Onjalé Scott Price
Maybe not necessarily racist, but just I couldn't. That wasn't for me.
00:24:51:19 - 00:24:54:09
Jay Zavala
And what year was that?
00:24:54:11 - 00:24:56:06
Onjalé Scott Price
2006.
00:24:56:11 - 00:25:25:15
Jay Zavala
And the reason why I posed the question is because as life goes on, there are different things occurring. You know, the situations are different. For example, during that same period, Muhammad Ali and you'll remember Doctor King was also assassin assassinated 68. And that created tremendous tension because in big cities across the country, there was, chaos. Right?
00:25:25:17 - 00:25:55:06
Jay Zavala
Right. So leading up to the Vietnam War, I know I clicked my heels many times that I didn't go to Vietnam, and I enjoyed this luxury. In fact, when we first moved to Falmouth, we attended the, the town band performance out at the the Harbor. And the MSC said, if you're in the Air Force stand up and we'll play your tune.
00:25:55:10 - 00:26:17:00
Jay Zavala
So they went through all of the different, military tunes, and people would stand up for the branch that they served them. And I didn't stand up. And my wife, who is from a military family, she said, you served. Come on, stand up. So, Bebe, aren't you proud? And I said, well, I, I didn't go to war.
00:26:17:03 - 00:26:41:25
Jay Zavala
I didn't, I didn't have to, you know, I was playing with cylinders and cryptography and she gave me a tongue lashing. I said, you know, you served your time, you serve your country. They chose where to put you. And and that was the case. I enlisted because I wanted to find out if I had moxie. As the expression was back in the day.
00:26:41:27 - 00:26:43:29
Onjalé Scott Price
I don't know what that is.
00:26:44:01 - 00:26:47:06
Jay Zavala
That's courage. You know?
00:26:47:08 - 00:26:48:27
Onjalé Scott Price
So at my age.
00:26:49:00 - 00:26:59:18
Jay Zavala
That's what I said in the day right there. Yeah. So I don't even believe I'm as old as I am. So. But you are. This is what.
00:26:59:18 - 00:27:00:01
Rev. Will Mebane
You know you.
00:27:00:01 - 00:27:01:17
Jay Zavala
Are to see if I had courage.
00:27:01:19 - 00:27:02:08
Onjalé Scott Price
Yeah. Okay.
00:27:02:11 - 00:27:30:16
Jay Zavala
And when I enlisted, that was the understanding that I had when I knocked on their door. And the military, after testing me, said, no, we've got something better for you. And the first offer was Officer Candidate School. But I had to re-enlist for a longer period of time, and I said, no, no, no. Three. Yes, that's good enough for me.
00:27:30:18 - 00:28:10:05
Jay Zavala
And so those years following my, graduating from from local high school, I actually left school, high school for one year. And I thought I was going through the passage of manhood into manhood. And I left home and I went out to Los Angeles, and I spent a year living on my own. And then realizing that I had to finish high school, I went back to Colorado and did so, but it exposed me to other locations of the southwest and the west and and there was a much more liberal attitude there.
00:28:10:07 - 00:28:26:06
Jay Zavala
So my circle of buddies included a, two Korean kids, one Japanese kid, one Chinese kid, one black on black kid, one Mexican kid, one German kid, and myself.
00:28:26:08 - 00:28:28:07
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah, the United Nations.
00:28:28:08 - 00:28:44:05
Jay Zavala
Well, I didn't realize that until my dad mentioned that one day we were were taking a walk and he said, you know, I really like your circle of friends. It's so diverse. And and they come. And every Friday we would pick someone else's mother to be the cook.
00:28:44:07 - 00:28:45:02
Onjalé Scott Price
You guys would pick.
00:28:45:04 - 00:29:09:21
Jay Zavala
Oh, yeah, we would, we would, we would also we going to go back to Ryan's house. You want to go to Jasa? And my mother would embrace them all right. So I didn't grow up with that. With a keen awareness of the racial divide that didn't come until I joined the military and saw it. It was palpable, and usually without provocation.
00:29:09:21 - 00:29:13:07
Jay Zavala
It was simply because a person was black.
00:29:13:13 - 00:29:14:04
Onjalé Scott Price
00:29:14:07 - 00:29:43:16
Rev. Will Mebane
As we heard from Darwin. Right. It was just just the fact that it was institutional. Right. And and I remember, Joe, in your your speech on Veteran's Day, you talked about a lot of things. I remember, but you paid tribute to the different eras of service and people that served in World War One and Korea, World War two, and Vietnam and Gulf War and what have you.
00:29:43:18 - 00:30:04:18
Rev. Will Mebane
And you you were clear in saying that, the people that served during the Vietnam era of Vietnam War did not get the welcome, the respect home that they, deserved. And in one of your lines, if I remember, was, you know, they didn't they didn't decide to go there. Someone else made the decision for them to go there.
00:30:04:24 - 00:30:05:22
Rev. Will Mebane
00:30:05:25 - 00:30:08:16
Joe Yukna
Yeah, we made up. We. Maybe we shouldn't have been there in the first.
00:30:08:22 - 00:30:12:18
Rev. Will Mebane
You said that, right? And that's not their fault. It's not their fault, right?
00:30:12:24 - 00:30:15:29
Joe Yukna
They were treated so badly. That's. It's a shame.
00:30:16:01 - 00:30:20:13
Jay Zavala
So Vietnam veterans were not treated. Any of them were treated well,
00:30:20:15 - 00:30:21:14
Rev. Will Mebane
That's true, that's true.
00:30:21:16 - 00:30:23:03
Jay Zavala
But but the blacks more.
00:30:23:10 - 00:30:47:25
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah. Well, and I have a brother in law that served in the army and my wife has family, a family member whose name is on the Vietnam War Memorial and, and, so we've heard some of those those stories from from family members. But, Joe, I wanted to ask you, to share some of what you've uncovered in some of your research and some of your history.
00:30:47:25 - 00:31:13:10
Joe Yukna
And let me go back to William Morris, who wrote the book The Soldier, the Wag His Tail. He was the African American who was in the the three 69th Anti-Aircraft Battalion. You writes later in the book where he got a toothache when they were going to go down to Camp Wellfleet and do anti-aircraft firing, and the dentist was, had already packed up his stuff so he couldn't go because he, he had this terrible toothache.
00:31:13:10 - 00:31:35:08
Joe Yukna
And he said, I'll get get you when I get back. What's unwritten in the book is there obviously were white dentists on the base. And he couldn't go to them. Yes. Right. The toothache bothered him so much he went AWOL, went back to Long Island, run into his dentist as he was, leave his office ahead and pull the tooth.
00:31:35:08 - 00:31:50:21
Joe Yukna
And then it snuck back, back onto the base. But the thing that's not the unwritten part of that was he had to do that extraordinary act because he couldn't get relief from a white dentist on the base.
00:31:50:23 - 00:31:59:25
Onjalé Scott Price
If I could ask in your research, have you looked at how people were treated when they return back and use the use of the GI Bill, for example?
00:31:59:28 - 00:32:22:23
Joe Yukna
Well, a lot of the well, one of the things that the the military service did was a lot of the the people involved in the civil rights movements afterwards were veterans. Medgar Evans got his education through the GI Bill, Brown versus the Board of Education. It was the children of a veteran. Brown was a veteran. His his kids.
00:32:22:26 - 00:32:24:13
Rev. Will Mebane
Did not know that.
00:32:24:16 - 00:32:49:09
Joe Yukna
The seven justices that voted in favor of that, seven of the justices were veterans. Three of them were appointed by Truman, who grew up a white supremacist, but had, his come to Jesus meeting and, changed his ways. One of the big things was the beating of, I believe his name was wood Woodruff.
00:32:49:09 - 00:33:14:19
Joe Yukna
No. Wood. Sorry, but he was beat and blinded, right at the just discharge. And that's what spurred, Truman to have to act, he, had just been discharged. He's still in his uniform. He asked a bus driver to wait for him where to use the restroom. He got into an argument. The chief of police came, broke his Billy club and then blinded him, with it.
00:33:14:20 - 00:33:38:12
Joe Yukna
The stump broken stump. And that was. That was the Rodney King of that era. It starts to change, but, the, lieutenant for, for Martin Luther King, he liked to get veterans because they didn't spook easy, and they knew the the discipline to stay nonviolent. So there were a lot of veterans in that movement.
00:33:38:14 - 00:34:09:12
Rev. Will Mebane
So speaking of, discipline, I know a story which we shared, via email and correspondence about Jackie Robinson. When he was in the military. And, most people don't know I didn't that, Jack refused to give up his seat on the bus, to a when they the white bus driver tried to get him to leave.
00:34:09:15 - 00:34:18:08
Rev. Will Mebane
And he did that before, years before Rosa Parks gave up her seat. Refused to give up her seat on the bus. I didn't know that.
00:34:18:11 - 00:34:40:00
Joe Yukna
Nobody taught me that. Yeah, he was in the seven 61st, which fought with the, the Yankee Division, and they, the way they got him back because he was found not guilty was they transferred out of the Black Panthers, to punish him for for, acting, acting up.
00:34:40:00 - 00:34:41:07
Rev. Will Mebane
Right, right.
00:34:41:09 - 00:34:56:16
Joe Yukna
But the, I'll give two Veterans Day days different, different years in, 1919, in Amarillo, Texas, two African-American veterans wore the uniform and they were lynched for it.
00:34:56:19 - 00:34:58:05
Onjalé Scott Price
Oh, God.
00:34:58:07 - 00:35:28:29
Joe Yukna
Because one of the ways, you know, the military was good for the African-Americans was the way the Klu Klux Klan reacted to that. Okay. 1944 the seven 61st, Black Panthers in the Yankee division were going into battle for the first time in a major assault. The troops have to protect the tank from Panzerfaust or bazookas, and the tank protects the troops from machine guns and the other tanks.
00:35:29:02 - 00:35:55:24
Joe Yukna
So they have to work together. One of the Black Panthers tanks gets hit. The command is blown out of the hatch. He's laying on the ground, severely injured from the safety of a berm. A Yankee Division sergeant asks him if he's hurt. He says I'm hurt bad. That Sergeant leaves cover, drags him to safety, and is killed in the act of saving his life.
00:35:55:26 - 00:36:03:01
Rev. Will Mebane
Now you got to add some context for us there, because who was the black officer or the black person.
00:36:03:01 - 00:36:05:03
Joe Yukna
In the black experience? Was the tank commander? Was the.
00:36:05:03 - 00:36:05:16
Rev. Will Mebane
Commander.
00:36:05:23 - 00:36:38:16
Joe Yukna
Of the, Sherman tank? The seven 61st and the Tuskegee Airmen were one of the the units that were created, by that protest in 42 that blacks need to be able to serve in combat situations. And it's funny, prejudice can have a beneficial effect. The highest scoring tank battalion in War two was the seven 61st Black Panthers.
00:36:38:18 - 00:37:08:12
Joe Yukna
Why? They kept them out of combat for years. So the same man, the Jackie Robinson, was originally trained for years together. So they coordination was much better. They got to read all the after action reports from other armored units that were in combat. They were able develop techniques to fight the German tanks, which were heavily, much more heavily armored in much, heavily gun than our tanks.
00:37:08:15 - 00:37:34:07
Joe Yukna
But they figured out there was a weakness. The had a hand-crank traverse, so were ours had a power traverse. We could move our turn quicker and we could fire on the move. The German tank had to stop, aim and shoot. So they had a really ballsy strategy. Whenever they came across a Tiger or Panther, they sent two Shermans out, weaving and firing till they got within range.
00:37:34:07 - 00:37:57:22
Joe Yukna
Destroy that tank. But if a German round had hit their tank, it would have gone through the front arm, through the transmission, through the crew, through the engine, out back the other side, because their guns are so much more powerful. But they because of that prejudice and they also were used as bait for the tank destroyer training at Fort Hood.
00:37:57:25 - 00:38:14:23
Joe Yukna
And so they had these white units trying their best to take them out in practice every day, because the white units didn't want to lose to a black unit. So with the time they hit combat, they were the best trained tank battalion in World War Two.
00:38:14:25 - 00:38:28:12
Rev. Will Mebane
Somebody might say, God works in mysterious ways. You know. Well, I know you, you brought some, some photos that, you wanted to to share with our audience.
00:38:28:12 - 00:38:28:27
Joe Yukna
Well, the.
00:38:28:27 - 00:38:56:17
Joe Yukna
Reason I want to really get into the African-American experience in War two, because I keep running into anecdotally and off to the side of my research. I'm just doing, research on the Yankee division in World War two. And I they went on the Carolina maneuvers and we found, well, one of the soldiers that came back with a yard long, souvenir photograph of the division of the other maneuvers.
00:38:56:17 - 00:39:23:10
Joe Yukna
I'm sorry. There was 500,000 soldiers. It was the biggest, training exercise in American history. And in the middle, they have the half tracks and that and the tanks and the, jeeps and artillery. A blimp, because that was a high tech weapon at the time. On the right hand side of this yard long photograph is this idyllic white family.
00:39:23:13 - 00:39:52:04
Joe Yukna
You have a Colonel Sanders. Kentucky Fried Chicken hadn't been invented yet. With his daughters and a horse and their black mammy on the left side of that same photograph, to be given as souvenirs to troops or by troops. There was a black family. They had, the kids eating watermelon in front of a bale of cotton. There's a shack with a mule, and they had two photos.
00:39:52:08 - 00:40:18:08
Joe Yukna
Cut out photographs, individual photographs, and build that picture up just as a is it a total racist, white supremacist thing to show the dichotomy between the whites and blacks of the time? And I saw that, and it blew my mind. And that's what I have to get into. The subject of the next. I researched the seven 61st because they fought with the Yankee Division and found out about them.
00:40:18:08 - 00:40:25:03
Joe Yukna
So I've been been keeping took down, a path to, tell the story.
00:40:25:06 - 00:40:37:16
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, I appreciate the work you're doing, the research you're doing, and, and that hope that your work with the, Cape Cod Military Museum will, begin to bear more fruit.
00:40:37:19 - 00:41:02:04
Joe Yukna
There's such a story to tell, and the African American stories is hidden in a lot of ways. Joe Louis came and he did a boxing tour of America. First stop was Fort Devons. Second stop was Camp Fort. They had an amphitheater there, but he added a fight, on Washburn Island. Falmouth. And we have photographs of him from life magazine fighting in the ring.
00:41:02:04 - 00:41:20:01
Joe Yukna
We know where it was fought because we found an article in the Camp Edwards News. He was off the stage and we have pictures of the stage that was used. But the reason he went there, because his tour was to raise morale for African-American troops, and Joe Louis was no fool. He knew that there was problems in America.
00:41:20:01 - 00:41:48:15
Joe Yukna
He helped, Jackie Robinson out of his predicament. But he said, quite truthfully, that. Yeah, America's not good, but the Nazis and the Japanese are not going to are going to treat us worse, you know, with the race theories that they had, you mentioned, Hiroshima and all that. There were 30,000 people killed in that blast.
00:41:48:18 - 00:42:03:27
Joe Yukna
The samurai sword. Murdered 250,000 people in China. The executions. So technology and death don't really matter. It's the spirit behind it.
00:42:03:29 - 00:42:05:22
Rev. Will Mebane
Evil is what I would call it. Yes.
00:42:05:22 - 00:42:31:10
Joe Yukna
Yeah. And and and in the long run, the the nuclear weapons ended the war, which saved 10 million Japanese lives, because that was the estimate that the Japanese civilians would have been killed. So it's had nothing is easy, black and white and. Yeah. And because there's, there's, there's other things you have to take into effect.
00:42:31:13 - 00:42:39:09
Rev. Will Mebane
Jay, let me ask you. So you spend a lot of time, around veterans and working with veterans, talking to veterans.
00:42:39:09 - 00:42:42:24
Jay Zavala
Yeah. It's just something that's evolved out of friendship.
00:42:42:26 - 00:42:59:05
Rev. Will Mebane
So what do they say to you? Participate in conversations. Do you do they have conversations with you sitting around having a cup of coffee and talking about the racism that they saw, that they participated in? You know, they wish they had done.
00:42:59:08 - 00:43:36:17
Jay Zavala
Little in both both cases. Yeah, I lived I grew up in Colorado, very liberal, very open. Not much problem at the time. 40s and 50s. Right after the military, I moved to Louisiana. One of the most oppressive states. I understood when you knocked on the door of a restaurant that they say they'd look to see and they say, okay, you come in, you're one of the club members.
00:43:36:19 - 00:44:05:03
Jay Zavala
So you'll you'll remember again that in the 60s, it was the Civil Rights Act, the Civil Rights Act of 64. I was writing about my my band with, the, and all the other the other monumental legislation, Voting Rights and Voting Rights Act. Those two, those were prominent in the 60s. So the military was a reflection of really society.
00:44:05:05 - 00:44:38:27
Jay Zavala
And I saw it very, very vividly in Louisiana, where I boarded a bus one day. And faintly behind the over paint, I could see the letters Negroes to the back. I said, wow, this really did occur. This wasn't a Fig Newton of my imagination. It happened right? And a lot of those attitudes were just, in transition as a nation.
00:44:38:27 - 00:44:57:19
Jay Zavala
We were just getting to that type of legislation. And so what transpired immediately after was, the Ali incident. And, of course, Doctor King and the entire movement became very pronounced.
00:44:57:21 - 00:45:18:17
Rev. Will Mebane
And some would say that maybe we have regressed, to that period again. But that's our show. That's another topic for another show. I think I want to move to, our second question and see what our, what Darwin has to say, because I want to hear what you two have to have to say also about progress.
00:45:18:17 - 00:45:42:17
Rev. Will Mebane
You know, what kind of we've touched on in a bit now, what kind of progress has been made in terms of eliminating racism in the military? So take a listen to what Darwin has to say, and we'll be back with Joe and Jay after that.
00:45:42:19 - 00:46:03:08
Darwin Phillips
Quite a bit. You know, especially in the Coast Guard. You know, they became my last year in they started talking about women aboard ships. And I'm like, are you insane? You can't put women on these ships. You know, these guys are missing their girlfriends and stuff that I don't know, water for 30 days or longer. And you're going to put a woman on that ship on the board.
00:46:03:15 - 00:46:38:12
Darwin Phillips
It worked. I don't know how, but it worked. It came out with a new class A cutter. It was probably, oh, maybe 30 or 40ft longer than mine. And I was on a 327ft gunboat, which is basically in the Navy. It would have been a destroyer escort. So it was just a crazy idea for me. But now you go on Facebook, there's sites where all black women in the Coast Guard, you know, and and being, promoted, you know, and it was like wonderful.
00:46:38:12 - 00:47:01:23
Darwin Phillips
I kept looking at it like I couldn't believe it when I first saw it, but, black officers and, so it's really changed a lot. I'm sure there's still, you know, a good, a great, good degree of, racism because, I mean, out here, there is. So you got to figure it. It's still in the military as well.
00:47:01:25 - 00:47:11:15
Darwin Phillips
But somebody is trying, you know, they're trying to make it better, and I just wish they had it, you know, when I was in. But.
00:47:11:17 - 00:47:50:05
Rev. Will Mebane
Welcome back to the studio. We're here with, Joe Yukina and Jay Zavala. And, today, Scott Price is a co-host of of the conversation here. And again, I just, am touched by what Darwin had to share. And but also by his encouragement that things have gotten better. And, so that's good to know. But before I ask Jay and Joe for response, I want to go back to Joe because he had a thought, just after we, we took that break to go to hear what Darwin had to say.
00:47:50:12 - 00:48:20:06
Joe Yukna
So, well, first I want to mention a funny, lighter story that, he mentioned that he saw in a bus negros to the rear, painted over on a bus he was riding, and in a city, northern inner city kids, when they were sent, when they were down south at bases, they'd jump and go to the back of the bus, because that's where you could get away with trouble and stuff up here, and everybody would be yelling at him to get to the front of the bus.
00:48:20:08 - 00:48:46:18
Joe Yukna
But, the fear and, hysteria that, prejudice caused in the South was amazing. I just, found out recently that in 1945, the state of Mississippi created a home guard to protect, their white women from black veterans. Upon their return.
00:48:46:20 - 00:48:48:20
Onjalé Scott Price
What does that even mean?
00:48:48:22 - 00:49:01:25
Joe Yukna
Well, one of the one of the one of the fears was that the, African-American soldiers would have had dalliances with white women in Europe.
00:49:01:27 - 00:49:04:23
Onjalé Scott Price
And so they'll come back thinking, you can do that here, right?
00:49:05:01 - 00:49:09:24
Joe Yukna
In fact, that grabs returning soldiers and search them for photographs of white women.
00:49:09:24 - 00:49:11:24
Onjalé Scott Price
What? Wow.
00:49:11:26 - 00:49:12:14
Joe Yukna
You didn't.
00:49:12:21 - 00:49:14:04
Rev. Will Mebane
I did not.
00:49:14:07 - 00:49:15:23
Joe Yukna
Learn your history.
00:49:15:25 - 00:49:19:06
Rev. Will Mebane
That's why you're here. You have to teach me. Please.
00:49:19:09 - 00:49:40:16
Joe Yukna
But in a in a good way. Hopefully someone. This is still so stunning to you because you've grown up in a different era, you know, which is progress. It's it's not Kumbaya. Everything wonderful. But this progress in my lifetime.
00:49:40:19 - 00:49:56:12
Rev. Will Mebane
Sure, sure. But so let's talk about the progress. What do you see as, as a veteran? You think the military's a lot different in terms of race and racism today than it was when you were there?
00:49:56:14 - 00:50:26:19
Jay Zavala
I think our entire world is better. And it was ten years ago, 20 years ago. And you have to remember also that when I speak to the camera, I speak through the experience of a nonwhite person when no one's ever, as I mentioned in the introduction, no has ever, suggested I'm white. Until I lived in Louisiana. Then I went to get, physical examination.
00:50:26:21 - 00:50:57:21
Jay Zavala
I had to fill out a form, and I put see for Caucasian, and the lady turned the pencil over and erase it, and she put a W in there. She says, you're not colored. You're white. Wow. And then when, of course, when we read our history, the Hispanics, the Latinos, the Chicanos, by whatever name, well, have been marginalized as well.
00:50:57:23 - 00:51:33:24
Jay Zavala
Not every generation is directly from El Paso's border. You know, my family's fourth and fifth generation Native Americans that have been in the southwest for many, many years. So when my grandparents would address us going out into the world, they would remind us at a scene, you they didn't embrace the Mexicano. They embraced the Native American side.
00:51:33:26 - 00:51:54:01
Jay Zavala
Right. The indigenous I should say. But growing up I was always looking for slings and arrows because I knew it existed. But it's never happened. So there was a fear of something that we would experience. But it never.
00:51:54:01 - 00:52:19:14
Rev. Will Mebane
Occurred. He knew about it but never experienced it. Right. Yeah. Well, you know, I'm sitting here and I'm thinking I'm as I'm listening to J. And and Joe in wrestling with this question about progress. Yes. There's been progress. As you said, J. And all aspects of our society. Hey, we have a African-American man who is the secretary of defense as we speak.
00:52:19:19 - 00:52:28:07
Rev. Will Mebane
Right. We've had, Colin Powell on may he rest in peace was, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Chappie.
00:52:28:07 - 00:52:39:21
Joe Yukna
James was the commander of it was a Red tail in World War Two. He was also the base commander in the 50s. He rode a jet called his chariot at, Otis Air Force Base.
00:52:39:21 - 00:52:40:26
Rev. Will Mebane
I did not know that.
00:52:40:29 - 00:52:51:14
Jay Zavala
And we have and we have Harvey Washington. Nobody knows him. He's my buddy. He's a black kid that lives in Michigan. We have Harvey Washington that.
00:52:51:14 - 00:53:27:11
Rev. Will Mebane
Came here to so. And we I guess the the, the ultimate, example of progress is we had a, black commander in chief, president of the United States, right. And yet we know that those are the issues of race and racism still exist in in the military. So in the final moments, we have, let's think about talk about what needs to happen to change to prevent the sort of repeat of history.
00:53:27:11 - 00:53:43:21
Rev. Will Mebane
Some of it, I think, I would hope, would never be repeated. But what can we do? What needs to happen in the military, in society, or in order to eliminate racism in the military?
00:53:43:23 - 00:54:08:15
Joe Yukna
Well, I'm I'm encouraged. But what I see with the younger generations, a lot of them don't even think in terms of race. And there's so many mixed race people now. It's harder. You know, there isn't that split, that you have now and again and very happy to see that young, the younger generations just really don't think in terms of race as much.
00:54:08:18 - 00:54:15:22
Joe Yukna
Although there's certainly extreme elements that are trying to drive it apart and all that. You know.
00:54:15:26 - 00:54:30:26
Rev. Will Mebane
I'm sure we think about the proud Boys and the, Oath Keepers and the Oath Keepers seem to be a little older group, but the Proud Boys and some of the other white supremacist groups tend to be populated by younger white males than older.
00:54:30:27 - 00:54:33:24
Joe Yukna
Right disaffected people getting latching on to, you know.
00:54:33:26 - 00:54:37:00
Rev. Will Mebane
Crazy ideas, you know, in community and, you know, yeah.
00:54:37:03 - 00:54:56:10
Onjalé Scott Price
Well, I think Jay made a good point. And he said that what happens in the military is really a reflection of what happens in society. So as we always talk about is ending racism in our society. And I think that would be reflected in the military. I don't have a solution for that, obviously. That's why we have these conversations.
00:54:56:10 - 00:55:10:25
Onjalé Scott Price
But I do think it's important to have these conversations and understand our history because, you know, it's often said you don't know where you're going if you don't know where you came from in many ways, and we're bound to repeat the same mistakes if we don't learn from them.
00:55:10:28 - 00:55:14:17
Rev. Will Mebane
Those who don't know their history are destined to repeat it. Right?
00:55:14:22 - 00:55:15:12
Onjalé Scott Price
00:55:15:14 - 00:55:30:12
Jay Zavala
So I like Joe. I have great hope. Great hope. Because the the cloak that prejudice hides behind whether it's, a sheet or a mask or or a.
00:55:30:12 - 00:55:30:28
Rev. Will Mebane
Three piece.
00:55:30:28 - 00:55:32:22
Jay Zavala
Or ignorance or.
00:55:32:25 - 00:55:33:14
Rev. Will Mebane
Right.
00:55:33:16 - 00:55:34:12
Darwin Phillips
00:55:34:14 - 00:55:36:00
Joe Yukna
Or, or a computer screen.
00:55:36:01 - 00:55:42:09
Jay Zavala
Or a computer, as we become more assimilated, we become more tolerant. You know.
00:55:42:12 - 00:56:09:01
Rev. Will Mebane
But I'll tell you one thing. I'm grateful that, Falmouth has both of you in this community and the work that you are doing, the the persons that you are. And, want you to keep doing it. Thank. Jay. It may sound like, a throwaway phrase these days because everybody uses it all the time, but thank you genuinely, sincerely for your service.
00:56:09:04 - 00:56:25:21
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, even if you were doing something other than being on the front lines, you served and you served honorably and, the nation owes you a debt of gratitude. And Joe again continued good work with the Cape Cod Military Museum.
00:56:25:27 - 00:56:26:20
Joe Yukna
Appreciate it.
00:56:26:22 - 00:56:32:29
Rev. Will Mebane
And, we'll have other opportunities to involve you with some comments as.
00:56:32:29 - 00:56:37:23
Joe Yukna
I get more research. I'd love to come back and really do a whole history.
00:56:37:25 - 00:56:43:01
Rev. Will Mebane
Keep teaching us. Yes, please keep teaching us. Andrew, good to be with you as always.
00:56:43:02 - 00:56:43:28
Onjalé Scott Price
Always good to see you.
00:56:44:01 - 00:57:10:04
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah, thanks for the time and thanks to you at home for spending this time with us here on the conversation. Grateful, as always to, Deborah Rogers, the executive director and CEO here, and Alan Russell and all the good folks who helped make, things happen here at CTV for serving as our producers, our camera people. And it's good to be in the studio.
00:57:10:05 - 00:57:11:02
Onjalé Scott Price
It's really nice.
00:57:11:05 - 00:57:26:16
Rev. Will Mebane
Really nice to see you. So, stay tuned, for another episode of The Conversation in the weeks ahead. Until then, bye for now.
00:57:26:19 - 00:57:33:23
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