Effekt

Our old friend Magnus joins us to talk about his new book.

00.00.40: Introductions
00.04.27: World of Gaming: Windheim hitting doormats; My Father's Sword hitting KS; Conan Kickstarter a week left. Broken Empires RPG kickstarter last hours; Salvage Union Starter set; Spelkongress goers heard more about Coriolis the great Dark and stuff; Dreams and Machines setting guide out
00.23.17: Old  West News - join our Facebook group
00.37.32: Magnus Seter on Out of the Box get it in PDF
01.46.15: Goodbye

Effekt is brought to you by Effekt Publishing. Music is by Stars in a Black Sea, used with kind permission of Free League Publishing.
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Creators & Guests

DS
Host
Dave Semark
Dave is co-host and writer on the podcast, and part of the writing team at Free League - he created the Xenos for Alien RPG and as been editor and writer on a number of further Alien and Vaesen books, as well as writing the majority the upcoming Better Worlds book. He has also been the Year Zero Engine consultant on War Stories and wrote the War Stories campaign, Rendezvous with Destiny.
MT
Host
Matthew Tyler-Jones
Matthew is co host of the podcast, as well as writer, producer, senior editor, designer and all round top dog. He was also been involved a couple of project for Free League - writing credits include Alien RPG, Vaesen: Mythic Britain and Ireland, and Vaesen: Seasons of Mystery as well as a number of Free League Workshop products.

What is Effekt?

A fan podcast celebrating (mostly Swedish) RPGs including, but not limited to: Coriolis; Forbidden Lands; Symbaroum; Tales from the Loop; and, Alien.

Dave:

Hello. And welcome to episode 243 of Effect Out of the Box. I'm Dave.

Matthew:

And I'm Matthew. And we have, well, we've got a great interview, haven't we? Let's cut to the chase here.

Dave:

We have. We've got We've

Dave:

got with one

Dave:

of the nicest people in the world.

Matthew:

Yeah. We love Magna Theta. Can we just say we love

Dave:

Magna Theta?

Matthew:

And we had a great old chat. It went on longer than we expected it to do. Even though I said we really should finish off.

Dave:

We had to cut it short. Well, I did anyway because I had other stuff to do. Yeah. But we could have gone on for ages, for much longer. But, we just have to get him on again in the not too distant future to to finish the conversation.

Matthew:

Yeah. Absolutely. But before that, we've got some world of gaming. We don't have any new patrons this week. At least we didn't when I last checked.

Matthew:

I should maybe have checked this morning, but let's assume not, shall we? If you if you've just joined as a patron, then you'll get a shout out next time we do it.

Dave:

But thank you and welcome anyway. Get on the Discord.

Matthew:

But thank you and welcome if you've just joined. And if you haven't just joined and you think, well, I'd like to join, then now's the perfect time. Yeah. I did although I gotta say, Patreon is going through a few changes. One of our patrons is gonna start getting taxed on his and things like that.

Matthew:

So Yeah.

Dave:

Yeah. They're not good changes, are they? Any of these changes?

Matthew:

They're they're none of them none of them good.

Dave:

Give give more money to somebody

Dave:

else changes for them to be brief. And I think eventually, all our patrons will be forced onto what they call the subscription model.

Matthew:

Yeah. And I think eventually all our patrons will be forced onto what they call the subscription model, which isn't massively different except your your money gets taken on a set day of the month. I think the 1st day of the month or something.

Dave:

Right.

Matthew:

No. No. No. That's wrong. Wrong.

Matthew:

Currently, your money gets taken on the 1st day of the month. I think they wanna move to a model where every everybody's money gets taken on the day that they joined up in the month.

Dave:

Right. Okay.

Matthew:

Which which would be a

Dave:

What is that? Basically stopping people getting a free 2 weeks?

Matthew:

Kind of. But also it's mostly to do with Disney insisting they not Disney. What am I saying Disney? Disney and Apple are synonymous obviously. Apple, wanting to get a proper cut of everybody who signs up

Dave:

through Yeah. The Right.

Matthew:

Apple Patreon app. So if you want to sign up, don't sign up through the Apple App. Come to the website and there's links to our web to the our Patreon website in our show notes and sign up there. It's better value for everybody except for Apple. But if you do it through the Apple app, it it it's a monthly you know, it's a 30% goes to them.

Matthew:

And also they forced Patreon into the state where Patreon now have to, you know, move everybody under this bottle where

Dave:

Yeah.

Matthew:

It's a monthly subscription. I guess so that when people cancel, they get up to when they last paid. I don't think it makes much odds, but it's just slightly irritating.

Dave:

Mhmm.

Dave:

Yeah.

Matthew:

The predictions worked very well for for the last few years. For us, especially, you know, you've thank you to all our patrons. Just say this again because you not only have you supported the podcast, but you've also supported us being able to get into a state when we could do a realistic Kickstarter for Tales of the Odd West.

Dave:

Indeed. Yeah.

Matthew:

With with art to show and stuff like that. Yeah. So it's all good. It's all good. It is.

Matthew:

Anyway,

Dave:

Massive thank yous all around.

Matthew:

That's a long time talking about Patreon for where we didn't actually have any new patrons.

Dave:

No. And and and we were gonna keep this down to, you know, to 20 minutes, of us blathering on, and the rest of the episode would be Magnus. But I don't think we're gonna achieve that somehow. Anyway, let's crack on.

Matthew:

At 4 minutes in then, let's go to the world of gaming. Shall we Dave?

Dave:

Yeah. Let's do that. So, first thing on the list, Windheim from our friends at Nordic Skalds is, arriving on doormats now. So this is their dragonbane that what was their home brew dragonbane, setting, lore and campaign, which with dragonbane out there and being able to create your own material, they have turned into a fabulous couple of books, called Windheim, which, so I mean I I was lucky enough. They they sent me copies of the books in in return for writing about 250 words for Rem.

Matthew:

Oh, okay.

Dave:

It wasn't very much. So we both got invited to, do a little

Matthew:

I paid for my copies.

Dave:

Did you?

Matthew:

Oh, okay. I don't know why. I I got back to say, I don't know why. Obviously, I backed it, the project, because I wanted to support Andreas. Yeah.

Matthew:

But but then I I didn't realize I paid for the full set, you know, with the maps and and and the bling and the dice and stuff like that. Yeah. Because I don't think I intend to pay it. And then and then I forgot to even, do the back a survey and pay by postage. And Andres thank you, Andres, because you effectively gave me free postage.

Matthew:

You sent it to me anyway, which is lovely.

Dave:

But it it it looks lovely. It's it's very very much in the in the vein of of the Dragonbane style. It's really, really beautifully produced. I mean, we were chatting about it before, and I'm unlikely to get it to the table because I'm unlikely to run Dragonbane at any time soon, but I mean, it looks lovely. And so hopefully, everyone who's backed it are gonna be very pleased with, with the products that come through the door anytime now if it hasn't arrived already.

Matthew:

Yeah. And also and and the beautiful thing about this is Andreas has waited till people are actually getting Dragonbane before launching the next Kickstarter from Nordic's Gold. But that will be, well, that is now, I think, live, and it's called My Father's Sword. Very different product, tighter, a whole new system. We're gonna be talking with Andreas about it next week.

Matthew:

So if you want to find out or not next week.

Dave:

For the next show?

Matthew:

We're gonna we're gonna talk about it with him next week, actually, aren't we? I think Monday after next. But, we'll put it in the next show. But, yeah, that's out. And other things are out.

Matthew:

So there's a week left on, the Conan Kickstarter.

Dave:

There is. There is. There's yeah. Night at at the time of recording, which is Sunday, the 27th October, there's 9 days to go. They're doing really well.

Dave:

They've got over 200,000, pledged nearly 2,000 backers. I think I think Shep was aiming for 3,000. That was what he was really keen to get. I think he might have, you know, that was that was a target, but I'm not sure they're gonna quite get there now. I mean 9 days to go, they get the end of campaign bump.

Dave:

Maybe they will. So fingers crossed. And, yeah. That'll be that'll be cool. That's but that's doing really well.

Dave:

I guess I suspected it probably would. I mean, monolith have got so much material and resources for already. Thanks to the to the board game. But Yeah. You know, they've got so much great artwork.

Dave:

And it's just it's just bursting with fabulous artwork. So, yeah. That'll be, that that'll be the one.

Matthew:

That will be very exciting.

Dave:

It's done well already, but I suspect, yeah, we might get it to 3,000 with a bit of luck. So if you're interested in Conan folks, and you haven't looked at it yet, go and, go and have a look. It's got 4 scenarios in there written by me, which I'm pretty pleased with. I'm very I I, you know, I like them. They're they're good scenarios.

Matthew:

I'm pretty sure I looked at the kickstarter at some point where the actual next stretch goal was a scenario written by you.

Dave:

It was. Yeah. The priest of the skull lord.

Matthew:

Mhmm. Oh, I

Dave:

won't I won't give anything away.

Matthew:

It's got a skull lord in it. You can you can take that for certain because it's in the title. Well, the Or has it? Or has it only got to get?

Dave:

Well, or or or has it no priest and a butler does say, who knows? You have to get the Oh, okay. You have to get the game and play it to find out. But, yeah. So that was that was great fun.

Dave:

And actually, that was something that I so I'm not a massive aficionario. Aficionadio? Aficionadio?

Matthew:

Oh, that's a new word. That's good. Yeah.

Dave:

I'm an aficionado.

Matthew:

Can I list?

Dave:

I'm not I'm not a massive expert on co on Conan.

Matthew:

Conan goes, you foul aficionadio.

Dave:

Yeah. That's quite alright. I know I've I've read I haven't read all of the books. I've read a fair few back in the day. But it was great because I was able to to to to dip into some of the actual law from some of the books for well, not for all the scenarios, but for that one in particular.

Dave:

There was there was a lovely little bit of lore that I saw that I thought, That's a nice little hook for a scenario.

Dave:

So I so

Dave:

I used that. Yeah. I I think that I think they're they're pretty good. I'm very proud of them. I think they're gonna be great fun to play.

Dave:

But, yeah, go and back Conan, and you'll get the opportunity.

Matthew:

Cool. And, then we've got a couple of games that I know some of our patrons are, keen on. Broken Empires RPG, which I understand as being a d 100 RPG sort of, you know, basic fantasy fare, but giving a lot of freedom for the GM to concentrate on creativity rather than rules. So the rules are

Dave:

meant

Matthew:

to be really simple to run. And I think, I picked Douglas has looked at it and decided, yes, it works for him. And I mean, it does look

Dave:

very nice. I have to say the artwork, on the books on just on the first first page of the Kickstarter do look it looks it looks quite enticing. I've never played Broken Empires. I don't know very much about it other than what, you know, people like Douglas and others have have told us.

Matthew:

Mhmm. But it

Dave:

looks lovely. There was it's it's just hooked my might back that just because it looks nice, like, vibe. But I'm, you know, I haven't got the money to, but, it looks lovely.

Matthew:

I'm intrigued as well by the Salvage Union starter set. Does that count as a second edition? Only only a couple of years after the first one.

Dave:

Maybe.

Matthew:

But I'm kind of intrigued because, you know, box sets are more expensive than books. Yeah. And, Salvers Union made a lovely lovely book, and I'd love to know their thoughts behind why they wanted to do a box set.

Dave:

I mean, it's interesting. I mean, if it's a starter set, I think that's what it is, isn't it? It's a starter set. That does seem to be a, you know, a common trend these days in a in a lot of companies, doing starter sets where I mean, for me personally, I'm not a huge starter set fan. I'd rather get the full rules if I want.

Dave:

If there's a game I want, I'd rather get the lot rather than get the get a, you know, a sample selection and like some of the other fripperies that come with a starter set. But I know I mean, Boniface have done some very, very, well received starter sets for things like, Dreams and Machines. But they look like they must be super expensive to produce because there's so much stuff in them.

Matthew:

So I, you

Dave:

know, again, there must be a real benefit that they're seeing and, you know, you know, the likes of Freelee because they now do starter sets for for for most of their lines. There must be a real business benefit in that in in that they see people buying up starter sets, and then buying up the rest of the stuff.

Matthew:

Yeah. I mean, they do.

Dave:

Justify the cost and the effort to create them. Because they, you know, there's enough complication in doing a small little Kickstarter like we're doing with Toto. Mhmm. The level of that, it must be yeah. It's another level up on, on complication, I think.

Matthew:

I mean, I guess there is, you know, so, the books get published in Lithuania and, you know, just like The Wind Times is getting published by the same printers that we're using in Yep. Lithuania. And that's got European pricing. All the starter sets, I know for certain that all the box sets that Free League produces actually produced in China. Is it so much cheaper in China that it makes sense?

Dave:

Okay. Yeah. Could be good now.

Matthew:

And and are you know, and when I go to shows on Free League's behalf, a lot of the time I am, taking cards and and sample boxes from Yeah. Representatives of Chinese companies Chinese producers.

Dave:

Yeah. Absolutely. Looking

Matthew:

for work. So, you know, if if Chinese producers are competing against each other to offer the best value for manufacturers, then, you know, maybe there are some bargains to be had in starter set land.

Dave:

Yeah. Perhaps. Yeah. Yeah. In the

Matthew:

Spiele Congress happened. Sorry, he said, quickly pivoting away from that subject. But,

Dave:

I know. I'm I'm I'm sorry. I'm just at the moment, I'm just utterly shocked with how well you're sticking to the plan of moving on and not just being loquacious about every everything here. We we we yeah. Yeah.

Dave:

Well, according to my

Matthew:

clock here, we've got 7 minutes of chat left, and still I'm

Dave:

in the twilight zone. I'm in the twilight zone. Because I was gonna say something. Well, it just occurred to me looking in again at the, kickstarters that we're looking at today. 4 of them, if we include Windheim, are, you know, your standard standard?

Dave:

Your your your traditional swords and sorcery fantasy setting. Is there ever gonna be a day when fantasy, you know, there's too many fantasy games out there? Because because they keep doing well. I mean, you know, Windheim did really well. My father's sword is already already, funded.

Dave:

Conan is funded comfortably way beyond its, its target. Broken Empires, I guess, I've just closed the page down, but, I think that's again well funded already. So Yeah. You know, is there just a a a permanent sump of, and I don't mean sump in a derogatory way, but a sump of people out there who will always just back something fantasy.

Matthew:

Soaking up all the fantasy games that people can throw at them.

Dave:

Yeah. Because it's it's never ending. It just seems never ending, the number of fantasy games coming out. Anyway, that's

Matthew:

quite the idea. I don't know. And and and and for you and I, I feel we're we're kind of picky about fantasy games. For decades, we didn't play any fantasy games, and we were meeting to to play role playing games. But maybe we're just not part of that culture, and there is a culture out there that loves everything that could be thrown at them.

Matthew:

You know, so looking at these books of Dragon Vein, I'm thinking maybe I can convert these to, yeah, Forbidden Lands or something like that.

Dave:

Yeah.

Matthew:

Anyway, shall we shall we pivot back to what I've just pivoted to?

Dave:

Yeah. Sorry. Spill Congress.

Matthew:

Spill Congress, where they talked a lot about Dragonbane and, things like the Path of Glory, which is, the first of the official Dragonbane campaigns starting. They're also, of course, there's a Kickstarter for Versa that we talked about a couple of weeks ago. So they talked a lot about those products. We had our spies there. We had brilliant reports from our Swedish, patrons who gave the rest of us a little insight into what was going on Yeah.

Matthew:

At the Speel Congress, and it looked great. I'm a bit jealous that we weren't there. And later on in the interview, I'll express my jealousy to Magnus. You mark my words.

Dave:

Yeah. Well, because you've already done it. Because we've already

Matthew:

we've

Dave:

already interviewed him. But, yeah, they also talked about the Great Dark, I think, at Spill Congress. So Spill Congress, for those who don't know, is a free league organized convention. It's quite small. It's a 2nd year they've run it.

Dave:

And I think they had something like 3 or 400 people coming along, and they had a number of other sort of producers, and they had a lot of, seminars and discussions, and had a big gala dinner at the end. But, yeah. So it's the opportunity for them to talk a bit more about, as you said, Dragonbane, Veirsten, and,

Matthew:

Coriolis.

Dave:

Coriolis, the great dark. But, yes. It was great. So thank you, Nils and, and, Ricard. Ricard.

Dave:

Yep. Who were there and giving us almost blow by blow accounts. It was excellent. It was really good Yeah. To, to sit following you.

Dave:

With those yourself. Yeah. It was brilliant. It was cool.

Matthew:

Right. And and the final bit of news, you didn't mention this to me at all, but I saw that this thing had been published. I thought, hold on. Didn't Dave have something to do with that? And it's a new Dreams and Machines setting book.

Matthew:

Tell me everything about it, Dave.

Dave:

So this is, it's the Immortavalo setting book. Immortavalo is a, another region of, Ivera Prime. Ivera Prime being the planet where the game is set. This is to the north of the the region that you get in the core book and the, and and the starter set. And it it basically gives you another region and there is a giant city there, which is called Imurta.

Dave:

And the city is, it's abandoned. It's it's not destroyed, although it is damaged from the war that happened 200 years previously. But, yeah, it's a it's a it's a wide new region with, new events, new encounters, new things to come across. The book itself, about half of it is the setting, which is the work that I did. I I designed the city, and and the the kind of the things that going on in it.

Dave:

The rest is a couple of extra archetypes. You get some more gear, and, you get a few other bits and bobs, which are sort of, aids for the GM. I think that's got, travel rules or exploring rules at the end of the book. So it's it's a again, it's a lovely lovely produced thing. The yeah.

Dave:

I'm pretty pleased with the murder. I think the city is really quite exciting. When I was writing this, we were doing a campaign book as well, which I haven't heard anything about where that's, where that's in the in the production process. But there's a

Matthew:

Is that gonna be set in a motor varlo?

Dave:

Yes. Mhmm. Or or but it starts it starts in, Regis Castile, which is the original Where

Matthew:

you start

Dave:

with the basics. Yep. Yeah. But then, yeah, the story will take you into a murder varo, and eventually to the city of a murder itself. And, yeah.

Dave:

So it's, yeah. It's a really good it's a really good campaign when I mean, it's up

Dave:

to others to decide. I think

Dave:

it's a really good campaign. It's got some lovely bits in it. There's some excellent set pieces. It explores the world nicely, but I don't know what the production schedule is for that. So I haven't heard anything from Modiphius about when that's coming out.

Dave:

But, if you want the new setting with Emote Varlo, get the little book. It's it's quite it's quite a small book, but it's got lots of stuff packed in it. And that will make you ready and ready and waiting for when the campaign book comes out, which will take place in that in that setting. But yeah.

Matthew:

But it

Dave:

was great fun working on it. And I've I've just finished working on the next campaign book for Modiphius for dreams and machines. So, so that was fun. Yeah. I wrote I wrote a few scenarios for that, and did some of the setting material in a what was that place?

Dave:

Simio Surienta is the name of that region, which is

Matthew:

That next region.

Dave:

Somewhere else. It's not Mhmm.

Matthew:

It's

Dave:

not close by. The story gets taken, a long way away from home.

Matthew:

So with your ear to the ground in Modiphius, the numbers for this game, Dreams and Machines, are doing well enough then that, you know, they're they're happy to carry on supporting it.

Dave:

Yeah. For sure. I mean, I don't get any insight into actually how well it's doing. I know that they got an awful lot of praise from various people for the Dreams and Machine starter box, which is is great. It's packed full of stuff.

Dave:

It's, it's really good. But obviously, yeah, it's it's doing well enough for them to to continue to support the line, which is great. I know Chris, Chris Birch, this is kinda his baby. So it was his, idea that's been percolating for many years, a number of years. So when I came into the the team to work on it in the first place, what a couple of years ago now, there was already a slew of artwork and already a a lot of the background history was all all pretty much written.

Dave:

It needed a bit of fine tuning, which Chris got me to help with. Again, you know, I did a lot of the setting and the lore material, for that with with the rest of the team. It was quite a big team working on working on the game. Some of whom ended up working on tales of the old west. I'm delighted to say, because they're a real pleasure to work with.

Dave:

But yes. So I think, you know, Chris has obviously got a lot of his heart invested in this game. And, obviously, you know, it must be doing well enough for them to, to support doing more in the line, which is great. Because it it looks lovely. I mean, I haven't I've never played it.

Dave:

But I think, you know, it's it's it's a it's a game with with a bit more hope in it, without hope being a mechanic in the game. The game itself is quite hopeful. Even though there's a lot of death, and there's a lot of danger, and there's a lot of, of of of trauma and, threat in the game. The game's tone is is is pretty hopeful. Don't know.

Matthew:

Maybe you should try at some point in the future to get Chris on. And

Dave:

That's a good idea, actually.

Matthew:

Talking about, like, the, you know, particularly, I'm really intrigued if this is like, you know, maybe some you know, we know Modiphius started with Apturn Cthulhu, a year ago. That was their big thing. I'd like to know, was this a a thing, a world that he was working on and playing in before that. And, you know, you talked about there being lots of art, you know, his as he spent, oh, you know, we've got a spare £1,000 from this Kickstarter for Cthulhu. I'm gonna I'm gonna spend some of that on some art for my for my dream project.

Dave:

That would be a really interesting conversation, actually. Yeah. I I think we should definitely do that. Oh, yeah. I'll I'll ping him a message and see if we can encourage him to come on.

Dave:

That would be a really good idea.

Matthew:

Yeah. Maybe coordinate it with the release of the campaign whenever that is coming out Yeah.

Dave:

That's a good idea.

Matthew:

Cool. Okay. We like to do that. Now, shall we talk about our own Kickstarter campaign?

Dave:

Yes. Because we've we've failed in our target to stick to 20 minutes. Yeah. But we're not we're not badly over. So right.

Dave:

So what, what news have you got then, Matt? What do you want to

Matthew:

update? Okay.

Dave:

So the

Matthew:

art factory is working at full speed. You and I sat down last week, didn't we? And we had a board meeting. Yeah. And we worked out, we we looked at the word count now.

Matthew:

And you've got you've gone slightly gasko in in in writing some of these things.

Dave:

Well, actually actually actually, not so much. A little bit perhaps on the campaign. But a lot of the extra words was down to, the success of the kickstarter and the number of guest writers we had on board. So that That's that's

Matthew:

that's really what it means.

Dave:

Big chunk of words. But I I do feel I do feel I have been a little bit Lucretius perhaps on the, on the campaign. But I think, you know, it's all gold. Every word is is is is is gaming gold.

Matthew:

It's not all gold. Some of it is just copper pyrates, mate. And No. It's not gold. Luckily, we have the excellent Neil, who is, we've, commissioned as our editor.

Matthew:

And Neil will be going through that with his pan and sorting out the real gold for Paul's gold.

Dave:

Well, he'll he'll basically find he'll find the gold that's already been polished to the to the point where it can't be polished anymore. And he will find the rest of the gold that just needs a little bit of work to polish it up and get the dust off it. That's what

Matthew:

he's saying. I'm sure. I'm pretty sure.

Dave:

And he's very good at it. He's he's,

Matthew:

We're paying him a lot of money for this. I'd hope to think that he's gonna find us, he's he's gonna have a Well,

Dave:

I mean, he he massively improved the, the quick start. You know, he did a very good job on, on on making that a better product. So I'm expecting the same.

Matthew:

Cool. Yes. That I'm sure I'm sure that will happen. So, anyway, you're doing that. So that meant when we sat down, we thought, oh, we've got more pages in the book than we thought we were gonna have, and we need more art than we thought we were gonna need.

Matthew:

And, actually, I don't quite understand why we need so much more art, you know. Because obviously, yes, we've we've gone up like a 20% more pages roughly. We're not having 20%. We're almost doubling the amount of art we need.

Dave:

So Well, I I think, actually, and this is in the interest of full disclosure, I think we haven't produced as much art as we thought we had before the kickstarter. I think we thought we were a bit further on in terms of the quantity or the percentage of the artwork we needed to do. So I think Right.

Matthew:

I I miss

Dave:

I think we I think we miscalculated a little bit there, which is what has kinda led to, you know, the slight surprise on on that Friday of, oh, we got that much art left to do.

Matthew:

Yeah. I mean because I was

Dave:

I was

Matthew:

the extra on top left. To be

Dave:

fair.

Matthew:

You know, we did have, Thomas. Thomas wasn't was wasn't able to be as productive as he wanted to be. So, so, yeah, you're right. We would have had more done before the Kickstarter were it not for that. But still, like, anyway, we've got a lot to do.

Matthew:

And we've set ourselves a target of having most of it, if not all of it, in place by the end of November. Luckily, we got 3 new artists who Yeah. The Kickstarter brought to us. All very different approaches we've had, but lovely art. I'm Yeah.

Matthew:

Really enjoying. In fact, I don't think you've did did Mate Mate, not quite sure how to pronounce his Bulgarian name. Sorry, Mate, if you're listening. Did he copy you in on on the last 4 sort of weapon drawings he's done for us?

Dave:

Not No. I only saw the first ones.

Matthew:

I might send them on Or they should be in the same folder, actually, if you if you click on that. What I'm loving about these is these could be technical drawings. And yet, with the way he draws them, they they just they feel great. I just love them. Yeah.

Matthew:

I love them.

Dave:

Well, that that's kind that was kind of what I wanted really. I wanted it to look almost like this is this is a, this is a picture out of a, a catalog of the time. Because I did find, a catalog of the time online for Colt, and it had a picture of of I'm not sure what which Colt gun it was, but might have been the Colt 45. Had a picture of that with all the stats and the and the and, you know, the cost and all the rest of it. And this was something that was produced in 18/70 or 18/70 5.

Dave:

The quality of it wasn't quite right, because I was thinking we could otherwise potentially just take that image and use it. But it's the quality of the the, you know, the original wasn't very good. But that was kind of the look I was hoping for for these weapon things, because they're obviously gonna go in the weapons chapter. And I wanted it to have that feel that, you know, you're looking at a, an, you know, an image from from a journal of the time where you're flicking through and thinking, oh, I might go and buy that one. So I think that's it.

Dave:

Great. You know, the ones I've seen look look really good as well. I mean, so I I shall go and have a look at those those fresh ones.

Matthew:

Yeah. And, so and we've also got Tazio from Italy, who's, done one of our one of our archetype pictures, which we tried him out on. I've now settled him to do three others. I'm hoping to, with his Italian heritage to, channel Sergio Leone for him for some of our, more actiony pictures.

Dave:

He did the lawman archetype for us, didn't he? Yeah. And that that's really nice. That that's very, very good. Very good art.

Dave:

Yeah. So

Matthew:

And we've also got I'm gonna again mispronounce, your name, Cagdas, but, Cagdas is a Turkish artist living in Poland, and he's done our prospectus art, and he's doing Yeah. A whole bunch more for us.

Dave:

Yeah. That looks really good as well. I mean, you know, the the one of the things that is really good here is that all these new artists have really got on board with the style and the look we're going for. And they've produced artwork that is is is, I guess, slightly different enough.

Matthew:

It's their own interpretation.

Dave:

So you can see it's a different artist. But also, it's it's so familiar with what we're after that it just fits beautifully well with all the stuff we've got Yeah. Yeah. Very impressed with their work.

Matthew:

So, yeah. We we will, feature some more of that. I'm and now now that now that we're in production, actually, I'm not wanting to share too much art with our backers. I think we will share occasional bits. But I want to, keep keep some of it as a surprise because

Dave:

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

Matthew:

I think you and I, Dave, we've just seen the sketch for the GM screen. And

Dave:

Yeah. That's lovely.

Dave:

I mean,

Matthew:

it's only a layout sketch. It's not colored in or anything, but it's lovely.

Dave:

It's gonna be really good.

Dave:

It looks really good. It looks good.

Matthew:

I don't want people to be surprised by that. I don't wanna share that, until until people get it on their desk. And in fact, just as as an aside, I'm just wondering whether we could cut it up and use it as the end papers as well for people that didn't get the GM screen.

Dave:

Yeah. Yeah. That's a good idea. Yeah.

Matthew:

That might be a possibility. We'll, we'll see whether that works. Anyway, so that's art. What else are we talking about? What else have we done?

Dave:

So the text so the text is is is very nearly there now. We are, we are we are waiting for the for the response from our sensitivity readers, which we can say a little bit about more about in a minute. But we're not expecting anything massively sweeping from that. I do expect that they'll have comments that we'll need to roll in. But, yes.

Matthew:

I'm aware that the text we sent them has actually not got some of the changes that we realized were potentially insensitive after we sent them the text. So Yeah.

Dave:

But I think Yeah. So I think that's probably okay, because I think the one that you're If I'm thinking of the one that you're thinking of, you know, I think we've the changes we've made to that probably deal with that problem. Yeah. But, yeah. In terms of the text, so the only the only bit that So we're actually having a little discussion about the structure of the book, which is fine.

Dave:

That's very easy to fix. And there is one guest writer naming no no names, Drew Gascon, who hasn't come through with their thing yet. But I I gave him an extension because he was away at a convention. But so we're just waiting for it. One more of those to come in, which I expect any day now.

Matthew:

And Well, you know what the problem there is? The text He's done his 20,000 words, but you've only commissioned 500. So he's trying to He's

Dave:

gotta get it done

Matthew:

in a bunch of shape.

Dave:

Well well, actually, you know, in in in Drew's defense, he's never ever tried to get a text down to the word count before.

Matthew:

Oh, god. This is an impossible nightmare for him.

Dave:

So now that's a bit harsh. But I mean, second with Alien, he wrote so much good stuff that, that in the end Free League just went, oh, fuck it. We'll take the word hit. Yeah. And and include it.

Dave:

But no, I mean that that's not that's not a problem. That'll that'll come in in the next few days, and we've got a little bit of time there. We've got some of the techs off to Neil already. So Neil is is gonna be if he hasn't started already, we'll be starting, this week on the edit, which is great. So yeah, the text is in a pretty good place.

Matthew:

Yeah. Cool. And just a little bit so this is an example of the sort of things that could go wrong.

Dave:

That we'd never expect to go wrong. Yeah. Yeah.

Matthew:

So we sent we sent the text over to the sensitivity writer weeks ago. And in fact, I kind of like, the day after we were expecting it back, I said, you know, sent them a message saying, has it been a problem? You know, do you need a bit more time or something? And, they came back saying, oh, we we emailed you as soon as you'd sent us the text. We can't open the files.

Matthew:

Some weirdness with Google Docs. I don't know what it was. But their emails and they you know, she sent me copies of 2 emails that they sent us, and they said, you know, looks like they've been received from their end. No sign

Dave:

of talk

Matthew:

in our inbox. Hang on. And I've gone through Google's junk folder and stuff like that. Oh, not Google's actually. It was, because we've been working with them on the, first of all, initially, we were it was on the, Effect podcast Yeah.

Matthew:

Server. So no no no sign of them. So I had no idea what happened to those emails. So they've been sitting there waiting for us to respond with new docs, for 3 weeks when they should have been reading them. So, so eventually and then I tried again and the same thing happened.

Matthew:

I don't know what Google Docs are doing. I copied all the text into a Word document and then sent that off to them, and that is at least readable. So

Dave:

Yeah. Good.

Matthew:

So that's what they're seeing. So this the other This

Dave:

is a sorry. Go on.

Matthew:

Sorry. You know, but, you know, now they're starting 3 weeks late. So that's slightly thrown our schedule. I think it's rescuable, you know, and they're, they're

Dave:

Yeah. That's what I was gonna say. Yeah. So I I think I I think this is this is an inconvenience rather than a huge problem. Because, you know, once that comes back, we then get it into to to Neil for editing.

Dave:

It might mean that that text is a little bit later getting to him than we would like. You know, maybe by a week or 2 at the most. But I but I yeah. It's it's it's Yeah. I'd I'd rather it hadn't happened, but it's not it's not terrible.

Dave:

It it does possibly start to test

Matthew:

our our

Dave:

target date of getting the PDF done by Christmas. I think that's going to be a challenge. We will do our best to achieve that, but I think that that might be a problem. But we will be open and honest with everyone explain what's going on, and and and let people know what the revised schedule will be if the schedule has to be revised. But but I think on the whole, you know, this is an interesting kind of case in point for people like us who are brand new at doing this kind of thing of the the issue out of left field that, you know, never in a 1000000 years did I think there'll be a problem with opening files with the sensitivity A do call it

Matthew:

a horse horse.

Dave:

Or or them their emails back complaining about it, or telling us about it disappearing into the ether, and us having no clue what's going on.

Dave:

Never in

Dave:

a 1000000 years do I think that would happen. It's happened. You know, take it on the chin. We'll deal with it. It's not a biggie, in this case.

Dave:

But it's a it's a good case in point of the kind of things that we ought to just keep our eyes and ears open for, and maybe double check with things in future. You know, to try and keep us on track. So for example, a lesson a lesson from this could be that, you know, 3 or 4 days after we sent them the material, or something similar, just say, hi. Did did you get it? Are you reading it?

Dave:

Is it all okay?

Matthew:

Yeah.

Dave:

You know, I mean

Matthew:

Which is, of course, after I sent them this material, exactly what I did.

Dave:

Yeah. But it but again, it's it's one of those things that you don't necessarily think you need to do, because 99.99% of the time, everything works swimmingly and you don't hear anything and that's good news.

Matthew:

And once upon a time, email was a lot more flaky than this and we've just come to rely on it so much Yeah. Because it's, you know, it has been so good.

Dave:

Because it's not so flaky anymore. No. Yeah. Yeah. So there we go.

Dave:

But we are cracking on. The other thing to mention is the, the maps are are being produced. They've seen the first the first sort of spread of all the maps we need. It's a bit of work that needs doing on them to get them in the right place. But they are, they are being put together and are actually looking pretty good.

Dave:

The the the the maps of the west and New Mexico, which I was not worried about. But I was just I was just, what's the word I'm looking for? I was interested to see how they would turn out from the drawings that I did, are actually looking a lot better than I thought they might. So I think we're I think we're getting into a good place with those as well.

Matthew:

Cool. Cool. Cool. Right.

Dave:

Cool.

Matthew:

Right then. Are we done?

Dave:

We are.

Matthew:

Now this is this is on a that was almost another 20 minutes, Dave. We're now 37 minutes in. Well, it does. Shall we devote the rest of the episode to almost hour long chat with Magnus? And frankly, that should do.

Matthew:

Dave, do you want to introduce Eric? Eric? Do you wanna introduce Eric?

Dave:

Yeah. I'll introduce Eric, and you introduce Magnus. How about that? That that sounds like a great idea.

Matthew:

Okay. I'm I

Dave:

think we're keeping that in the in the in the podcast now.

Matthew:

Well, maybe we should.

Dave:

So we are so we're here we are. We are in the Hamam, and today, we don't have Eric in the Hamam who Matthew just encouraged me to, introduce. We have the wonderful Magnus Sieta. Welcome, Magnus. It's great to have you on the show again.

Dave:

It's, I think is this the second time we've had you on the show, and you've also won a game of Dragonbane for us. 3rd time.

Matthew:

I think you were on our panel discussion about the history of Swedish games, actually, which is kinda pertinent.

Dave:

Indeed. Indeed.

Magnus:

Makes it for them because we did 2 on Bitter Reach, and then we did the Swedish style.

Dave:

Yes.

Magnus:

And then this is the 4th time.

Matthew:

Wow. Cool. Yeah. Wow.

Dave:

Excellent. But so welcome again as always. How are you? How are things?

Magnus:

Yeah. I'm fine. My voice is a bit shot after, the gaming convention this, last, Saturday. As we call in Sweden, gaming convention, which is, arranged by, Free League. And, it's it's, it sort of drew in 350 visitors and about 100 people working there or being there selling books or game mastering and stuff like that.

Magnus:

So about 404 150 people gathered at one place for, Saturday.

Matthew:

It looked brilliant. I have to say. Yeah.

Dave:

It was the first

Matthew:

smart dinners. Oh, yes.

Magnus:

It's it's they they they end, they end the the, event by having a a gala dinner for, specially invited, awful people who buy outrageous, outrageously expensive tickets. So so it's it's that's it's sort of like the business, that come together with with producers and and the people who work in the industry and and super fans, basically. Mhmm.

Dave:

It's it's a

Magnus:

great first industry.

Dave:

Was that was that the first one that is that the first time they've done it, the inaugural?

Magnus:

Oh, this is the second that that they did last year, and and that was focused on Dragonbane. And this year, they did, Dragonbane, but they also did Coriolis at the Great Dark.

Dave:

Great Dark. Yeah.

Magnus:

They also did, Vaesen. And and they just recently released news about the mythic Transylvania and of the, Stockholm, adventure module, I think.

Dave:

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. The Carpathia.

Magnus:

Yeah. Mythic Carpathia. Yeah.

Dave:

That sounds cool. Yeah.

Magnus:

I'm most excited about the Stockholm thing, actually, because we have our office in in Gamestan where where the adventure takes place. So so it's sort of like, if you play it when we play it, it will be, adventuring where I go to work, basically. Excellent.

Matthew:

And, what are you playing currently just in in in your social life as it were?

Magnus:

We're actually, at the moment, not playing a freely game. It it was sort of,

Matthew:

It's okay.

Magnus:

It's legal. I I I heard Thomas and Neil screaming in the in the fall.

Dave:

Yeah. I'll tell you.

Magnus:

Yeah. No. The thing was that we ran a a a long, long campaign of Raven's Purge.

Matthew:

Mhmm.

Magnus:

And, after that, we sort of like well, we're we're sort of like, well, maybe not a free league game. So so we picked up a game called, alien. And after that, we're like, well, maybe not another free league game. And then we played, Avasten. And we had such a such a difficult time.

Magnus:

I was just trying to wrestle ourselves free from from all the fabulous games that Free League are are doing, that we sort of, in the end, ended up now playing Maus Ritter.

Matthew:

Ah, yes.

Magnus:

And it's it's it's a fabulous change of of, pace, and it's also a fabulous change of perspective. The the just just the the the fact that you play a little mouse adventuring with swords and everything, it it makes it feel different. Although it could be dragons and and and paladins and the fighters and Yeah. But you are mice fighting rats and and and cats and and roaches and stuff like that. And the the the change in perspective is very fresh.

Magnus:

Mhmm. And we're we're very much enjoying that. After that, I don't know what we're we're going to do. After Raven's Purge, which took us 3 or 4 years to play, we decided to not do mega campaigns.

Matthew:

Right.

Magnus:

So we we tried to do 8 to 10, sessions of 1 game and then switch to another game because we are blessed with having 4 people in the group of 5 being game masters. So

Dave:

Right. Yeah.

Magnus:

People are, like like, lining up to this. I wanna run this. I wanna run this. I want to run this. So so we we have to let people run their things, basically.

Dave:

Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a good way it's a good way of doing it. My my weekly group, we've got 5 people who wanna game master, and we we rotate around the games.

Magnus:

Mhmm.

Dave:

But it but it what it does mean is that each game kind of loses a bit of momentum between sessions because it's 4 or 5 weeks between sessions.

Magnus:

Oh, okay. You did that thing.

Dave:

Yeah. So we're we're tinkering with the idea of doing it your way just to try and keep the momentum going, but still enjoy the game. It's still great fun, but Yeah. I think there's definitely something to be said for playing the same game every week for a couple of months now.

Matthew:

Yeah. You felt that definitely, didn't you, with, Walking Dead, the the break in Walking in The Walking Dead campaign, did it no favors at all?

Dave:

No. Absolutely. Yeah.

Magnus:

And I think in the alien game, we play chariot of the gods, and I think that having, if if we would have had weeks in between sessions, the stress levels would have sort of, like, not been the same. That would be

Dave:

lose some of the the

Magnus:

energy of of the stress.

Dave:

Yeah. A

Magnus:

million at at least. So but it's on its its gaming is gaming. And so so you do it differently. Everyone does it differently. Yeah.

Magnus:

Yeah. So that's what I'm I'm

Dave:

I was I was just gonna say that, Magnus, so because there's a there's a very, very good new game. You might have heard of it. It's just coming out or or be released next year that you might wanna get into, as your group might wanna play it, you know, some western tales of the old west

Magnus:

thing. Yeah.

Matthew:

Yeah. And it's not a 3 d game. I mean It's not

Dave:

a 3 d game.

Matthew:

3 d.

Dave:

Kind of might as well be, but it's not.

Magnus:

Yeah. Exactly. No. Exactly. And I I congratulate you too for the

Dave:

Yeah. Thank you.

Magnus:

For the successful Kickstarter. And I I just read the an email that you said that the path to fulfillment has begun.

Matthew:

Yes. Yes.

Magnus:

So I'm I'm looking forward to it, and it's it's it might be fun for you to hear that when people ask about, so are there other Wild West games aside from Western, which is a Swedish game

Dave:

Mhmm.

Magnus:

Which is supposed to be printed, at the end of this year, but still, people will recommend your game.

Matthew:

Excellent. Excellent.

Magnus:

I'm looking looking forward to that, and and, we'll see where that ends up. It's it's, the Western game that we have in Sweden is hyper detailed. So so I think that, a taste of the old west will fit me a little bit better, basically.

Matthew:

Cool. Cool. We backed the, Swedish oh, we we backed the English translation of western as well.

Magnus:

Yeah. So it's coming along.

Dave:

Many years ago. Yeah.

Magnus:

Many years ago.

Matthew:

And we strived we we have committed ourselves to not looking at the PDFs. Oh. Because, of course, we were developing our own game alongside, and I didn't wanna feel that we were nicking ideas out of Weston. So when it comes, it'll be a pleasant surprise. Mhmm.

Matthew:

And, hopefully, by then, ours would have gone to print, so we can't change anything if we can Oh god. That's what

Magnus:

I did.

Dave:

It'll be too late anyway because we wouldn't be able to change stuff by then anyways.

Magnus:

You have to have room for a second edition as well,

Matthew:

you know? Yeah. Same.

Dave:

Yeah. We should be we should be doing that next year. We should see that next year. Yeah. There'll be time for a second edition next year.

Magnus:

Exactly. That that's what game is like. 1 year between editions.

Matthew:

They love that, don't they? Yeah. They love that.

Dave:

The shorter, the better. The shorter, the better.

Matthew:

Yeah. And what it'd

Dave:

be, it's

Matthew:

just so that's your that's your your hobby life. Have you been writing anything interesting

Dave:

that you

Magnus:

can tell to?

Dave:

Other than, of course, the book that we've got you want to talk about. Yeah.

Matthew:

Yeah. He wrote that months ago. Now I'm looking to

Magnus:

I'm working on the, lone wolf, the dragonbane adaption of lone wolf.

Matthew:

Uh-huh. Excellent. And that's with, without, forgotten the name again. Got that. Name Charlie.

Matthew:

Asphogel. That's what I'm looking for.

Magnus:

Wolfgang. Yes. Yeah. That's on the bird. Yeah.

Magnus:

Exactly. And it's, it's being kick started in English at the moment, actually. Mhmm. And, that's it's a great going great. It's it's almost close to a 1,000,000 Swedish krones Kronas.

Magnus:

Nice. Which is great because the Swedish one didn't do as well as we hoped. Mhmm. But the English one is doing a lot better. And Cool.

Magnus:

Since they are so close to each other, we can, we can sort of pull together resources, which means that we can enhance the Swedish version now, which is Yeah. Cool. Cool. So cool. Like, just

Matthew:

must be a bunch of English magnum and fans from the old Oh, yeah.

Magnus:

The old English. Absolutely. And and the the thing with that is that that I'm only do only sort of, like, doing the, rules, adaptions. Mhmm.

Matthew:

Of

Magnus:

course, I'm I'm doing some some things that need to be done with the structure and and and the way the text is presented.

Matthew:

Mhmm. It

Magnus:

shouldn't be. But, we have August Hahn on the train as well, and he's a magnum and expert, which I'm not. I'm just a Dragonbane, expert of of sports. So so it's it's it's a good thing to have someone who knows magnum and in and out, basically. Apart from that, I'm I'm just writing short articles for Dragonbane for Phoenix and, trying to trying to prepare for my next big thing, next year.

Matthew:

Oh, any hints about what your next big thing is?

Magnus:

It's a big thing, and it comes next.

Dave:

It's a thing, and it's big. And it

Matthew:

comes next. And it

Magnus:

might it might involve free league. So that's

Dave:

Nice. Nice. Intriguing.

Matthew:

Excellent. Right. We shall, we shall move on then to the the meat of this interview because, you sent us, both of us, each of us, a copy of this lovely book, which I'm holding up for, for Magnus. But, of course, we're a podcast, so nobody else can see it. Let's all hold our books up.

Dave:

And it's called outside the box because Magnus obviously isn't getting to there to the title.

Matthew:

How Sweden conquered the world of role playing games, which no lack of modesty there. I know that. It's an

Dave:

assertive it's an assertive subtitle. Listen to that one.

Magnus:

It is. It is. And it's it's it's fun because it's funny because, it's been some discussion about the premise of the book, among Swedish roleplaying gamers. But, one thing that that I I write in the book is that if I've learned something, about, roleplaying gamers is that everything is up for debate.

Matthew:

Yeah. Yes.

Magnus:

And as

Dave:

I mentioned that part in the book. Yeah.

Magnus:

Yeah. Yeah. And it's, the the premise that we have, conquered the the the role playing world is sort of, like, contested, among, some. And my take is that not not many people would be interested in reading a book about how Swedish role playing games are sort of good, and you might want to to try them maybe if you like. That that that's sort of like a Yeah.

Magnus:

Much more boring assertion. And since we are also aiming this book at the American market Yeah. There's no denying that. That's the biggest market. Maybe Germany is is big and the UK, of course, but we are sort of aiming at the American market.

Magnus:

And, it it was written by me in English, to start with so that, we could appeal to people outside of Sweden. And we have to be sort of, like, assertive and just say, well, look at this. Mhmm. This is cool. Take a look at this.

Magnus:

Yeah. And, of course,

Matthew:

Even if d and d players want to take issue with that subtitle, they're gonna have to buy the book to argue with it, aren't they? So Exactly. Planning plan. Well done.

Magnus:

And and the thing is that that the the the the the basic premise basically is is basic basically basic the basic premise is that, in Sweden, Dragon Bay in is Dungeons and Dragons or occupies the space that Yeah. Dungeons and Dragons occupies in the rest of the world. And stop

Dave:

Dungeons and Dragons occupying that space in Sweden because it Exactly.

Magnus:

Because it

Dave:

got there first. Yeah.

Magnus:

Yeah. And one of one of the the basic, ideas I have about, role playing games is the first mover advantage is is very powerful.

Matthew:

Mhmm. And

Magnus:

if if you look at at, role playing games and and you say that, Dungeon and Dragons is the best rule system because it's the biggest, and it that proves that it is the best type of role playing system with levels and and escalating hit points and the spell slots and everything like that. I don't think that holds water, because there are other places in the world where other rule systems have dominated. So so it's basically a first mover advantage, of course, and it has to be a good game. I played a lot of Dungeons and Dragons. I Yeah.

Magnus:

I I really, enjoy playing Dungeons and Dragons, but it's not the it's not the be all and end all of of, role playing game design. And I wanted this book to to lift that perspective a bit and say that it it can be different, basically. No.

Matthew:

No. And I and I love that first chapter. Well, for various reasons, actually. Dave and I, you know, we came to Sweden once. We interviewed a bunch of people, and I think I think we may foolishly have thought, oh, we know the history of Swedish role playing games now.

Matthew:

But I've definitely learned a lot from from what I've read so far in this book. But I do just while we're talking about you've written this, specifically for the American market. I love the little hint towards that one, which is your your map of Sweden in the first book. He say, size slightly larger than California. So Yep.

Matthew:

No. You're giving a context for, for the world there. But the

Magnus:

other thing

Matthew:

that I think I was, really interested to spot or to find out, I should say, in that first chapter is how much time Frederic Malmberg spent in America having kind of had the idea of let's, you know, let's well, first of all, I guess, let's become a distributor for these American games that we're enjoying, and then let's let's write our own, and let's make sure that we've got that, as you say, that first first mover advantage in there. But he did a real kind of tour of of the late seventies, early eighties American gaming scene, didn't they?

Magnus:

Yeah. And I I and I that's something that that we have to also acknowledge in Sweden is that, sure, it's it's, we conquered the role playing world, but it's it all originated in the in the States, and we brought it here and gave it our own spin. And, Frederic Malmberg, who appears quite a lot in the book Mhmm. Because he he wasn't also he wasn't only very important at the start. He has been important all all the way through, the development of the Swedish wool paying industry and the hobby.

Magnus:

But he spent time in at working at different distributors and then moving to California, working out at a game shop there, and living with, Steve Perrin and his wife and playing games with. He's credited in the Call of Cthulhu, 1st edition as a play tester.

Matthew:

Mhmm.

Magnus:

And, he sort of soaked up a lot of knowledge about distributing games, selling games, and and he also saw that role playing games were on the up in in the states. And that was sort of like when he decided that we have to do do our own. We have to make our own in Swedish. And since he was friends with, Kaosim, he got, the rough manuscript of, magic world, turn that into dragonbane or Drakkar the Morna, as it was called that. Dragonbane is such a such a new name for us.

Magnus:

It's it's we we never call it that, but it it it's sort of, like, natural now.

Matthew:

Does it feel natural too?

Magnus:

It it does.

Matthew:

When it when

Magnus:

it It does.

Matthew:

I mean, Odie in English, you surely still call it Draka of the Annoia with the chatter.

Magnus:

Yeah. Exactly. If we if we speak speak about it, we call it, actually, we call it dod, d o d.

Matthew:

D o d. Yes. Yes.

Magnus:

Or or dod. Yeah. But but it's it's it's sort of like Dragon Bay felt strange, because we wanted, like, the where's the demons and stuff like that. But it it it is a good name still, and it it's, it's it's taken hold so so that it doesn't feel strange.

Dave:

But I can see why they they decided to to use Dragon Vein for the wider audience. But I I still think that, you know, I'm maybe I'm a bit closer to some of this than than most people, but Draco Octomona sounds great to me. Demons and dragons and demons sounds good. You know? So I I think they could probably have got away with going with

Matthew:

Topgolf.

Dave:

Dragons and demons.

Matthew:

Could they have got away with it? I mean

Dave:

Don't know. Don't know.

Matthew:

I I I I love that. Frederick was saying, we called it Drakorog Dimuda so that we can take D and D's place before it's taken root in Sweden. Yeah. That is very

Dave:

Yeah. And D and D in yeah. Exactly. And so

Magnus:

it it will be quite a turn if Wizards of the Coast would if they had gone that route and the Wizards of the Coast had said, well, this here book, it says here that they they chose because they wanted to take our our trademark. So, Magnus, you know, the wit for Wizards of the coast. No.

Matthew:

No. No. No. No. You got plenty of time for that to happen.

Matthew:

You you haven't yet got distribution in America yet. So Oh. Which is the coast probably haven't read it. So No. You may still be called to Fabulous or subpoenaed, I guess, to a case.

Matthew:

I don't think so. Yeah. The other thing that I thought you know, the first thing you learned on the first paragraph of chapter 1 is how old Gathcon, which we were talking about, earlier on, How old Gothcon is? I mean, although, you know, it started off as Convent, and you talk about D and D arriving at Convent Convention 77 in 1977, and that, you know, that being the the beginning of of of role playing in Sweden. Mhmm.

Matthew:

But we haven't got, have we, a convention that's lasted so long in this country, have we, Steve? Steve?

Dave:

Dave? So so Steve and Eric

Matthew:

games day.

Dave:

So Steve and Eric, let's ask them what's what's going on. No. It it would be like as if games day had remained all the way through to now, which obviously I I don't remember what year it stopped. But, we went in the eighties. But, yeah, nothing has been anywhere near as enduring as that.

Dave:

No.

Magnus:

Oh, that's cool. And it it's it started out as Convent, 77 Convent 8. Convent being the Swedish word for convention. Yeah. And and it's it's quite funny that that when, Mikael Berjesson, who is one of the the founding fathers of the Swedish hobby, was calling to, against we're actually to place an ad for the convention in in White Wolf.

Magnus:

He spoke to Aldi Fiori there, and and he's like, Convent? Is is this something for nuns or something? Yeah. So so

Dave:

That might that might get you quite a lot of old blokes coming along anyway, but for totally different reasons.

Magnus:

Nuns with dice. So, had to make up a name for it on the spot spot. So he just call it gothcon. And it's not a it's like it's not a gothcon. It's

Dave:

No.

Magnus:

Con in Gothenburg, one of the major cities of Swedish role playing game history. So that's quite at the drop of a hat, he had to sort of like, oh, well, I have to call it something else. Well, let's call it a goth call.

Matthew:

Yeah. On on a very expensive international phone call.

Magnus:

Yeah. Exactly. And and that's that that that can also be sort of like something that I think that Swedish warping history can be summed up as well. Things things happened. Sometimes they weren't planned.

Magnus:

They just happened. And and, it's, I I probably that is the same for the states, but in Sweden, there are many coincidences. Mhmm. Some some more some have more luck than others. Dungeons Dragons was translated into Swedish by Mikael Berrioson, but due to unfortunate events, he, never got got it off the ground, and and, it, was stopped being published.

Magnus:

So those dragons tried to make it in Sweden, but it couldn't, couldn't topple the, the the dragonbane.

Matthew:

Mhmm. But, of course Yeah. History could have been so different. I I also love the story about how a a consignment of Jack Ockedemoto was being driven, in in an Alfa Romeo when the steering wheel came off.

Magnus:

Yeah. Exactly. And, so that that could have killed, killed 2 of the most important people in in the, Swedish football history, and things might have been very different. One thing that we're talking about now is that why didn't the established board game producers that we had or the established role playing no. Board game producer in Sweden that we had.

Magnus:

Why didn't they try role playing games? And I don't think I don't have an answer, and and I don't think anyone else has an answer. So I'll have to I'll have I I have a list of things that I wanna do, add, for this the 2.0 edition of this book in about 10 years, 15 years. And and that's one thing that I'll I'll look into. Why didn't someone else from the board game section of the whole of the industry try role playing games?

Dave:

Yeah. It's really interesting reading the book and and getting the sense of nostalgia of of those days.

Magnus:

Mhmm.

Dave:

But, also, I mean, you talk about things like the the, you know, the the the satanic panic about Dungeons and Dragons and role playing games and and the effect that that may or may not have had. I mean, I I remember hearing about it in the, I guess, in the early eighties when I was 14 or 15. I don't ever remember it really having an impact in the UK. But what I do remember really clearly, is you'd never tell anybody else that you played Dungeons and Dragons. Not unless you know, a couple of couple of my very good friends who I kind of eventually came out to and said, oh, have you ever played Dungeons and Dragons?

Dave:

And they both said, oh, yeah. We used to play that as kids, but I've known them for years and had never even dared raise the fact that I played d and d. Wow. So I wonder if there's a thing in in in that that so it's I haven't got that sense in in your book yet. I mean, you talk about the the the the death of role playing in Sweden before the resurgence.

Dave:

And I wonder if there was a little bit of that kind of feeling in that period, but I don't get that sense from your book in the same way that I felt it back in the eighties.

Matthew:

No. I mean, quite the opposite. You know? In fact, actually, I wanted to unpack this a little bit more. So, again, later on in in in the book or even in the first chapter, I can't remember, you talk about the club scene in Sweden, which seems to be a lot more organized.

Matthew:

I mean, Dave and I were members of a of a of a club, but, you know, that club was 5 of us who played games at my house, and called ourselves a club, whereas there seemed to be more support for social clubs around all sorts of things in Sydney.

Dave:

Clubs with lots of lots of many of members.

Matthew:

And I wanted to talk a little bit about that and how you've got a you've got an overarching organization for role playing and wargaming, clubs. Does that still go? Does it still live?

Magnus:

Oh, yeah. Absolutely. And and that's one of the most difficult things about this book is that, one of the unique things about the Swedish gaming hobby is that, we are sort of grounded in a Swedish political movement of, educating the people, which is sort of like the the state supplies education to people so that people can raise their competence in different things, try different things, and become more employable and and maybe change the so that basically, so that people wouldn't have to be farmers all their lives. Mhmm. So sort of the state supplies that.

Magnus:

And I I sat down thinking, how can I explain this for an American audience? They won't understand what I'm talking about. This this state

Matthew:

Smacks that smacks socialism to me. Oh, yeah.

Magnus:

Communism. Communism. Communism. Uganda. Everything.

Magnus:

But but it it there there is a a a tradition of the state offering support for broadening your horizons and learning new stuff.

Matthew:

Mhmm.

Magnus:

And we do that in study circles. We do that in in like, people can go they can read books and talk about them. They can learn to sculpt. They can read about history. They can do a lot of things in their spare time.

Magnus:

And and then they will get if they are young people, they can sort of form a a club, and they will get support money from the state. Like, if you if you make sure that 10 young people gather into this club and do a wholesome activity, such as like, playing rock music is a wholesome activity in Sweden.

Matthew:

Mhmm.

Magnus:

So you could get you could get money, not lot not a lot, of course. But if you're a gaming group and you meet every week for a year and you get, like, £10.10 a quid for every member for every session that that you every time you meet, it adds up, and you use that to to buy more games and and and you you stay off the streets and and you you you sort of, like, contribute to to people learning new stuff. And that that's one of the the strongest aspects of the Swedish hobby. And so we also form these local clubs, like 5 people, 10 people. But there also is a central organization which organizes these clubs.

Magnus:

So we weren't we weren't isolated, points of light Mhmm. In this in in the country. We were like we knew that there were other gaming clubs, and and we we could have events and to meet together. And and we had an an organization that could help us communicate, exchange ideas, and and just just, arrange larger gaming meetings and conventions and stuff like that. And and that's, that that also meant that there are a lot of us who sort of interfaced with with the adult world through, these clubs because you had to talk to the local politicians.

Magnus:

You had to apply to to to get these, this money, and you you had to sort of follow a a special organizational

Dave:

Set of rules

Magnus:

and stuff. A set of rules. Exactly. You had to have a a someone who decided who who decided You had

Matthew:

to have offices in your club. Exactly.

Magnus:

Yeah. You had to have secretary. You had to have this and this and this. Mhmm. So people learn how to organize, and, they learn how to put events together.

Magnus:

And and, that has helped the hobby to to sort of be cohesive and sort of, like, be a big hobby and not just people here and there playing role playing games. It's like, this is a huge bunch of people, and they are organized together. So we have a voice in Sweden through this, national organization. I don't always agree with what they say, but, it's it's, it's still it's it's a it's a central force, which sort of like when the the moral panic, the satanic panic came to Sweden, they had to step in and say, hey. This is outrageous.

Magnus:

This is not what gaming is about. So they had to become more political and and take a stand saying, well, we stand for informing people about the hobby and also encouraging people to organize and show people that you exist and that you are just like any other hobby. So that that means that the visibility overall playing games might have been much higher in Sweden than it had been in UK in the UK.

Matthew:

Mhmm.

Dave:

Yeah.

Magnus:

But still, there are people who have stayed sort of, like, anonymous about their gaming.

Dave:

Mhmm.

Magnus:

So so it's it's I think, in a way, I think that my bias shines through in the book about this because I've never been, shy about telling everyone that I'm a gamer. Yes. So so for me, it's, like, so so much part of my identity, and and it it it has also helped me professionally. And I have not experienced what other gamers have had. They've some people I know had their games confiscated and pulped or burned, and they had to play in secret.

Magnus:

And and a lot of people up until sort of like 10 years ago were sort of like, well, I used to play, but that's not something I do now. But now you can wear your nerd pin with pride.

Dave:

With pride. Yeah. Yeah.

Magnus:

And if you oh, you play role playing games. Can we try? Is is a more common thing than, oh, you play roleplaying games. You're such a pathetic nerd.

Dave:

Weird. Yeah.

Magnus:

Yeah. Exactly. So so it's it's I think it's it's it never was, for me at least, as what you're describing, Dave, but for some, it was.

Matthew:

Mhmm. But I I'm fascinated by this, you know, government supported gaming because I I think it has paid dividends over time. I mean, you look at, the Swedish computer games industry. You know? Most of the guys working for Free League actually are you know, have got day jobs still in computer games and things like that.

Matthew:

And, I mean, we talk is it I'm just trying to remember who who runs cabinet. Is it not Frederick Malmberg? Who

Magnus:

Yeah. Exactly. And he he was also instrumental in in forming Paradox.

Matthew:

Mhmm.

Magnus:

A lot of gamers were instrumental in in setting up, several of the the major computer game houses in Sweden. And as like you say, a lot of the Free League people worked or or still work. But he has Lilia, for example, who's involved in Free League. He's the co CEO of Paradox now. Mhmm.

Magnus:

Frederik Wester, who is, the CEO, he used to be a part of the Iron Ring, Jan Ringen, who was the precursor precursor of Freely. And, we have Frederik Malenbrand and a lot of other people. Helmgast people, a lot of them work for Paradox as well. Mhmm. So and that that's a that's a much much larger industry than the the Swedish roleplaying industry, the computer games industry.

Magnus:

But, also, we sort of, like, supply a lot of screenwriters and and and, creatives for other, fields of of culture and media, that that have their roots in, in role playing games.

Matthew:

And and in cabinet, Frederic Malmberg has, you know, kept hold of some of the IP from apart from Jack o' Doubeney.

Magnus:

Yeah. Exactly.

Matthew:

Those early games of Newton and also, of course, brought others in. So, Dave, you're writing for Conan, RPG now, but the Conan brand and everything that is Conan as a character is is effectively owned by Frederic Malmberg and and the gang.

Magnus:

Yeah. It's sort of like they sold to, I I forget. Is it come on or is it let's see here. Well, he sold it to some some bigger corporation and corporate entity, but he's still in control of the of the brands and and the licensing deals and stuff like that. Mhmm.

Magnus:

So so he he got a hold of co the Conan, property, the the brand, not the stories because they're not included in the in the brand, but the brand. And, in the end, also Solomon k and and stuff like that. So it's it's

Matthew:

So that's a neat grounding in business sense and stuff. Yeah.

Magnus:

Exactly. And and he's he's such an important entrepreneur as well. And and I think that that's also one thing that that, we have discussed about, because when when I wrote this book, I based it on a lot of other books, of course. There's nothing new here for Swedish gamers with an interest in in in their role playing history. But, one thing that has sort of erupted after the book now is that now people have sort of, like, a source that they can say, I don't agree with this.

Magnus:

I agree with this. I don't agree with this. That's all I've got. So it's it's sort of like creating more discussion. And one thing that that we, also discussed is that how how is it possible for a game industry in socialist Sweden to be so dependent on on entrepreneurs.

Magnus:

Mhmm. Because sort of like, we Swedes, we think that, well, being a business person in Sweden is frowned upon and and everyone is a worker, and we are a socialist country. Blah blah blah. But it's much more complicated than that. It's that that this organized part of gaming, which is which is not is nonprofit.

Magnus:

It's something you do on your spare time in your spare time. It it's it's nothing. Most most conventions in Sweden are run by, nonprofit organizations. They are not run by, the the companies. The spear that I went to last Saturday, that's run by Free League.

Magnus:

But apart from that, there are clubs doing the conventions. But, it it also seems that we need to have the entrepreneurs, trailblazers, basically. And Frederic Malware has been one of these trailblazers that, he he sort of, like, opened everything up together with a lot of other people, of course, but he's sort of like the the one person that comes around again and again and again and again. So so it's it's it's important to to also realize that luck and circumstance is also very important in this. And I think that, for example, 3 league, they have Thomas Harenstone, which is a is a shrewd businessperson.

Magnus:

And I think that's also one of the the important things to to acknowledge when it comes to the success of Swedish Volpeying is that you have to have someone who knows how to turn it into a business.

Matthew:

Yeah. But there's a Mhmm. There's also a a sense of confidence and chutzpah and drive. And I we've said this before on the podcast that, you know, here's Dave and I. You know, we might have had fantasies about publishing our own games when we were teenagers, but here we are in our fifties, and we're doing our first one.

Matthew:

Yep. Whereas, again, I don't wanna I don't wanna make this a a a a Frederick Muhlenberg, worship thing. But, you know, at 14 or whatever, he sets up his first distribution company, you know, not brilliantly professionally at 14, but, you know, he gets the idea I can buy Games of America cheap, and, also, I can buy more Games of America cheap and sell them on to my friends. And and, you know, at 14, has the nerve to get in touch with Chaosium and talk to them about their games and and stuff like that. And it feels a lot like, the favorite bloke I've whose name I've just forgotten, but, you know, the 12 year old who went to work as an editor for Chaosium.

Matthew:

Mhmm. Greg Stafford soon seems to be able to you know, when precocious kids come to him and say, oh, I'm doing this thing. He goes, oh, that that sounds great. Here, do you want some games? Mhmm.

Magnus:

Yeah. Exactly. And and that's that's the thing. It's that that

Matthew:

the Swedish Ken Volsten is the name.

Magnus:

Ken Volsten. Okay. Yeah. It's it's the Swedish, the forefathers, of the Swedish role playing game industry and hobby were very young. Mhmm.

Magnus:

They were they were in the twenties. So so it's it's, that also, of course, shaped a lot of things that happened. And and it it's sometimes it's difficult to remember that, Target games start around 82, 81, 82, 83, and and they went bankrupt 1999. And we're like, oh, it's such a tragic story and and everything. But, the average lifespan of a of a corporation, a company, at least in Sweden, is measured in in a couple of years.

Matthew:

Mhmm.

Magnus:

So it it it is difficult to keep a business going for a longer time. And if you're 20 when you start, it's equal it's even more difficult, I think, to sort of like, okay. I will dedicate my life to this company for 20 years. Mhmm. And and then do that strategically and and never do a misstep.

Magnus:

There there there were missteps, and and there were things that could have done gone very differently. But Frederic, he stuck out with it. He stuck with it, and he never sort of left the the hobby. And that's something that also is is really evident nowadays is that, he's very much involved, and and people can just message him on Facebook and ask, I wanna have a have a go at this license. Is this, free?

Magnus:

And he's like, make a presentation, and I'll I'll I'll talk to you. He's he's very available for us, younger gamers. Me being 55 being a younger gamer. Yeah.

Matthew:

And, so we talked so that's the business side, but also the creative side I wanted to talk about, briefly. One thing again, out of what I've read so far, and I'm by no means even halfway through the book yet. But, one of the things I thought was very interesting was the Swedish approach to adventure writing that seemed to take place, which I I'm I'm gonna put it to you, Magnus. It may be a symptom or not so much an exclusively Swedish thing, but a thing that was happening at the time that managed to ride a wave. So I remember a point in the early eighties when in England, we were fed up with dungeons and looking at, obstacles and things like that, you know, and trying to open out, get out of the dungeon, and Yep.

Matthew:

Now fantasy gaming is all around the world. And I think as well, as a group, we enjoy traveler a lot more than most fantasy games because traveler allows you to do that faction factional intrigue and stuff in a way that that wasn't just following a dungeon down to the big bad at the end. But very much, it seemed to be that from the earliest Swedish language adventures, people were thinking in that way. We're thinking about, let's not have this as a dungeon. Let's have this as a social adventure where you've got all these different factions.

Matthew:

Being, of course, probably the most famous, but actually the whole the whole world back then of, Drakkar Dmunna, the name of which I've just forgotten, being built on that sort of way rather than just a series of dungeons one after the other.

Magnus:

Yeah. The first official world for Drucker the Morner was Erevaltor. That's what I'm looking for. And so that's what you think. Yeah.

Magnus:

But the Swedish, the Swedish game design philosophies are are much more sandbox based. Mhmm. Much more, relationship based, and and a lot more story based than, the dungeon crawls of Dungeons and Dragons. And and I don't really or I can't really say that it's it was a reaction, but but the early writers were definitely reacting to Dungeons and Dragons and saying that we wanna do this differently. We want to do this more.

Magnus:

What I say is a more intimate setting in in that, you don't have huge sprawling empires, and huge

Matthew:

Dark lords.

Magnus:

Forest. Dark lords and and and and level 20 adventures. It does. Everything is is a lot more grounded, and everything is much more, closer to the to the adventure, basically. And it's much more based around forging alliances and and and and forging relationships with the the the the embassies surrounding you and then then the world surrounding you as well.

Magnus:

Especially since since the, the basic role playing base of of Swedish role playing games at the time, we sort of gravitated towards low hit points, type. So you could die whenever, Yeah. Sort of like fosters a different kind of, adventuring strategy, basically.

Dave:

Yeah.

Magnus:

So like gang up on people instead or or just try to talk yourself out of out of out of trouble. And that started already in 83, 84, 85. And Call of Cthulhu is very popular in Sweden, and that's one of those games. Of course, that's also a basic role playing game. It's a game.

Magnus:

Yeah. Also very much relationship based and player interaction, and, things like that. And and I think that, although I I I I might only touch on that briefly in the book, Games Workshop was really important for us because many of the games that we bought were the Games Workshop versions. My first Call of Cthulhu, box set was the Games Workshop, box of the second edition. Ruin Quest, many many got the Games Workshop books.

Magnus:

And, of course, White Dwarf was one of the the role playing games that we actually could get in Swedish, magazine stores. Tobacco is they carried white for for some extremely strange reason. I don't know why, but, I've I've spoken to several hobby people who who sort of like, yeah. White wolf was sort of like hour of window into the the world outside. So And,

Matthew:

of course, white dwarf, we're talking about when it was good, when it was When it

Magnus:

was good. Before

Matthew:

just warhammer. No. Exactly.

Magnus:

So I started Yeah. Issue 68 and, ended in issue at 100 20 or something like that. Yeah. But but then that also means that, as Warmer fan's role play, erupted when Warmer fan's role play erupt on the scene, it became very popular in Sweden. And that also that that's also a kind of gameplay that we enjoy.

Magnus:

Yeah. Of course, Warnefersaupt also developed into something else and stuff. But but, I mean, Shadows of Bogenhagen and and Power Behind the Throne, Death of the Reich, adventures like that could easily have been, written in Swedish for for dragon. So we had a lot to to to thank, GB for.

Matthew:

That bridge, that stepping stone to the American game.

Magnus:

Oh, yeah. Exactly. Absolutely. And, I mean, Graham Davies has written for Vaesen now, for example. Oh, yeah.

Magnus:

Yeah. Yep. So, I think that that that's that's a game that that really sort of feels Warhammer fantasy or play y to me, with with the aesthetics aesthetics and and the general mystery. It's it's, I love Shadows of a Bogenhaiften. It's it's a hugely influential adventure for me.

Matthew:

Excellent. We should, we should probably be be wrapping up soon. Dave, I've you got any more questions you want to ask? You've read a bit further into the book than I have at the moment.

Dave:

Yeah. I guess the one the one that I haven't really got to is kind of the modern day. I mean, I've reached the bit where where we've talked about the the the so called death of the role playing game industry and, and then, obviously, there's a resurgence. I you know, is it is it just you know, this is gonna sound really bad. Is it just Free League?

Dave:

Is that is that what the resurgence is? Can you say a bit more about that?

Magnus:

Yeah. It's it that's actually an interesting thing. It's because when we planned out this book, we we planned it to have 10 chapters of sort of equal length. But as I wrote it, I sort of realized that, well, I can't do that. So some some chapters are longer and some are shorter.

Magnus:

And one of the central premises of of this this three act. No. It turned out to be 4 parts, but we wanted to have sort of, like, the start, the death, the resurgence because that's a good dramatic yeah. Development of that. But when I came to the death of World Bangers, I didn't have that much to say, basically.

Magnus:

It's like well, it sort of it sort of petered out. But, as I looked into it, it it turns out that I like, I say in the book is that it turns out that roleplaying games didn't die. They just changed hands. We, the old guard, we sort of, like, left it for for dead, but there were younger gamers who were working on the, on their games and and building their own companies and building their own fan bases. And it it's even started with a company called Neo Games in Mhmm.

Magnus:

91996 when they released, Neo Tech and a game called EON, which is a fantasy game. The EON game is is is a detailed hugely detailed and comprehensive, fantasy playing game that, was immensely popular in in the southern parts of Sweden, especially in Gothenburg. And that sort of like wild Target Games that created Drucker the Mortar was dying, they were sort of, like, building up their business. So so nothing nothing really died. It's it's just sort of like More

Dave:

of a transition.

Magnus:

Yeah. Except more of a more of a transition. But, of course, we like to talk about the death of role playing games because it sounds so dramatic. And and it was a a thing that we thought in the 2000 that role playing games were dead. But we forgot about Nier games, and then right minds came to this on the scene with the a new version of Dragonbane.

Magnus:

And Iron Ring, Jan Rengian, in 2000, with Mutant.

Matthew:

Mhmm.

Magnus:

And they have a a couple of fans who, later started something called Free League.

Dave:

Mhmm.

Magnus:

So so it's a progression. I have 4 or 5 companies that that sort of like, Neogate picked up in 96. Right? Mine's in 2,000. Iron Ring in 2,002, 3, like that, and then Free League, entered the scene.

Magnus:

But there are also a lot of small vanity press, companies as well. So if you want to sort of, like, list the the amount of role playing games that have been published in Sweden since the death of role playing,

Matthew:

you would you would

Magnus:

have, like, 30, 40, 50. I don't know how many. Yeah. Not everyone is huge, of course, but most of them are are really good.

Matthew:

Actually, I wanted to ask a little bit about that. So, you know, obviously, Free League publish sometimes they might be accused of publishing in English first rather than Swedish. Now we know they've got some Swedish language games that we're never gonna see, but, broadly, is there a Swedish language game that you know about which you think really deserves a translation into English, which hasn't happened yet?

Magnus:

I think Ian, would be the one, because that that's such a huge world building, thing. And it it the rules are very different from from Draco de Moner. And I know that they are talking about it, but it it's sort of, like, never happened. It's it's never happened. But Ian is one such thing.

Magnus:

It's it's huge. It's like, the equivalent of the Desmarzse Augie in in Austria and Germany. It's a huge game. It was late to be published in in English, but didn't really hit it off.

Matthew:

So Yeah. I remember, in fact, that when we did, when we recorded our Swedish style episode, a lot of comments after that were, how how come you didn't mention that? How come you didn't

Magnus:

mention that?

Matthew:

It's like yeah. So

Magnus:

And I I sort of I I sort of answered that in the book because it's it's such a silly thing, but there there was a rivalry between Gothenburg and Stockholm

Dave:

Uh-huh.

Magnus:

Who who's the who's the capital of, role playing games. And I'm in I'm in Stockholm, so I I I didn't really know anything about neo games. And it's only lately that I've looked looked into them. I I learned to know them. We're friends now, and and I I know them well now, but I didn't really I've never played any of of Nier Games' games.

Magnus:

So so sort of for me, that was a blind spot. And, yes, that that's one thing that we missed in in the Swedish style discussion. Apart from that, of course, I, I think that most of the really good games are translated, like troubleshooters. I love troubleshooters. Mhmm.

Magnus:

Mutant, of course. I think it would be a cool thing if if the Iron Ring version of Mutant would be translated. It never will be, but it would be Okay. Great sort of, like, documentation of of things for for the for the people outside of Sweden because it's such a uniquely Swedish game. It's it's grounded in our culture, in our history, in a lot of politics about Sweden and and stuff like that, industrialization of of of the countryside and and things like that.

Magnus:

So so, but I I think that Ian is 1, and one that I know people are asking about as well is Mhmm. Call of Cthulhu Sweden. Okay. This the Swedish localization of Call of Cthulhu is not it's not a translation. It is localization, which means that it is written with Swedish background, Swedish history, Swedish everything.

Magnus:

Of course, it's the same rules, but it it is very much a Swedish, It's like you would publish a Swedish campaign book. And I know people are asking for that, and I'm hoping that someone will do that sometime. A strange thing there, though, is that I spoke to some people and and, at the SPIR Congress, I think BlackRock were there. The the the Polish, people who work with Gaussian. Mhmm.

Magnus:

And I think we talked about I don't have them. Maybe no. No. Wait. Wait.

Magnus:

Sorry. I'm rambling. Gunilla Johansson and Mika Petterson are 2 people who are very, influential for the Swedish role playing hobby, and they write Cthulhu material now in Swedish. And they said that they someone wanted to bring, an adventure from Sweden over to the States, like, not translated and have it set in Sweden, but set in, Massachusetts or something like that. And and I'm like, why?

Magnus:

Why would you do that? There are plenty of American based adventures already. Yeah. Set in set in Sweden.

Matthew:

Martin didn't you know, there there were also plenty of global adventures. Yep. Why not have one in Sweden? Exactly.

Magnus:

Yeah. I mean, Mark Mark's often not a thought type picture of game mastered 4 or 5 times. It's it's, everyone dies in Egypt. And and, it's like New York, London, Egypt, Nairobi, Shanghai, and and Australia. So why not Sweden?

Magnus:

So but I I'd like to see the Swedish material. And I I I'd like to see Sweden it's like in Vaasen as well. It's it's like people play in Sweden, play in Scandinavia. And I like that. Sweden has become sort of like an established setting that it it it's okay to write adventure set in Sweden if you're a Swede.

Magnus:

When I was when I when I was younger and I I wrote adventures, I always set them. If it was cyberpunk adventure, it was always in in the Neo Tokyo or Neo this or Neo that or something. Never Sweden.

Matthew:

Because Never Neo in Stockholm.

Magnus:

Yeah. No. It sound never. Never. No.

Magnus:

Because that that sounded boring. But now Sweden has been rehab rehabilitated rehabilitated, as as a place where you could actually find a lot of interesting adventures. And

Dave:

I think there's definitely an interesting kind of element that, certainly in the UK, and I don't know if it's the same in in in the US or elsewhere, but there's definitely a sense and has been kind of all my life that something that comes from Sweden is just that bit better than everything else. Sweden is just that bit better. You know? Yeah.

Matthew:

Yeah. Volvo. Volvo.

Magnus:

Just just

Dave:

generally. Just that sense doesn't matter it doesn't matter what it is. Just culturally, Sweden is a place where everything is a bit better.

Magnus:

Yes. It is, actually. So yeah. Yeah. No.

Magnus:

It's it's, and that's great. And and I I think, I I did I did listen to a lot of your podcasts when I wrote this book. I listened to that first visit you had to to Stockholm, for example. So that that was helped me shape my thoughts and ideas about what to write about in the book. And and we are very happy about the reception of Swedish role playing games outside of Sweden.

Magnus:

Of course, we are very proud. Most of us really think that it's such a cool thing, that people outside of Sweden think that Swedish games are a little bit better, basically, than the local local audience.

Matthew:

I haven't yet got to the chapter, Magnus, where you talk about how the effect podcast is the thing that draw Swedish games

Dave:

to rest of the world. Yeah. Exactly.

Magnus:

I want to, I want to add, for the 10 year next version 2.0, I I think I will add a section about podcasting because we have very good podcasts in Sweden

Matthew:

as well. Sweden roles and,

Magnus:

Red Moon role playing. Yeah.

Dave:

So that

Magnus:

and we have very a lot of very good Swedish language, podcasts as well. And, of course, we also are very happy that that some people, broad dedicate their whole podcast to Swedish role playing games. And it's it's such a fabulous it's such a strange feeling, actually.

Matthew:

Mhmm. It's

Magnus:

really cool. So so but but we don't exist in a bubble. Swedish role playing games are a part of a global, global hobby. And with the Internet, everything melds together. It's it's it was a lot easier to talk about Swedish, Swedish games as being Swedish, earlier on.

Magnus:

But now if if you look at Alien, a few of the, of the authors are not from Sweden. Well, most of the authors are not from Sweden.

Dave:

That's true. Yeah.

Magnus:

Some of them are from the UK.

Matthew:

And and it's interesting, so I never realized this, but the first artist on the first edition of was American. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Magnus:

Yeah. And and that that that that's also funny that that that, is is something that we never knew back then, because we sort of like you weren't you didn't have access to people like we have today back then. Mhmm. So so we we didn't know a lot about about these things. But but the the story about, the first also, that that's the story about the first box art, is is Yes.

Magnus:

Also Friedrich Malmberg giving someone, a kid, a chance. Yeah. And then and that kid did something that that he wasn't really that happy with, but which became really a big thing in Sweden. And he didn't know about that because he sort of did the things, and then Frederic Malmo moved back to Sweden, and and he never he never knew about the the what had happened to the game that he had illustrated. So so it it's

Matthew:

Yeah. But then I I also like that story of him hearing it overhearing a discussion in a game shop where

Magnus:

Yeah.

Matthew:

Somebody will say, well, the interior art's not bad, but that cover is dreadful. Exactly. Open up.

Magnus:

And I always thought it was I always thought it was dreadful. It's it's on the inside of the of the cover.

Dave:

I always thought

Magnus:

it was it was dreadful. But knowing that as a teenage boy with with no formal, education, he did that, formal art training or anything, did that. It's I sort of have a renewed appreciation of it.

Matthew:

Yeah.

Dave:

And it's and it's reminiscent of quite a lot of the artwork that you saw back in that time. Yeah. In comparison to the other artwork, it's actually it it compares well to a lot of it.

Magnus:

It does. It does. And that's something that's easy to forget because Yeah. Late later versions had a cover by Michael Whelan, which is one of the the greatest fantasies

Matthew:

The Elric. The,

Magnus:

Yeah. The Elric

Matthew:

Yeah. Thing. Yeah.

Magnus:

Elric the Stormbringer thing. And and and it's so easy to forget that much of the art that that target games put on there. Drug court the more in the books was, repurposed from image banks. Like, you you bought the rights to an existing Yeah. Cover somewhere.

Magnus:

Yeah. But, it talking about covers, I I think that one thing that really blows me away with with working, for example, with Free League and, with FanRack now is that, you get

Matthew:

the score just covered

Dave:

like that. It is superb, isn't it? Yeah.

Magnus:

It's such a good cover. And Johan Egercarz, who who did the cover for Dragonbane Yeah. And also the interior for Dragonbane. Yeah. This one.

Magnus:

And it it it's a if anyone doesn't like ducks in fancy gaming, you can show them this picture, and it's like, okay. This is okay. I don't like ducks, in fantasy. This is some this is something that that looks badass. Yeah.

Dave:

Yes. Yeah.

Matthew:

And and so

Dave:

So so, where can we get hold of the book then, mate? Where where is it available?

Magnus:

It's available in PDF from To fanbrake.com. Nice. And then you can click your way through that. But we are working on, international distribution for the print, copies, print version. And it's it's, I I since I'm sort of, like, only a freelance writer, I I don't know that much about distribution and and the deals I've had.

Magnus:

Matt, you you sent me some some things to look into, and and FanDrake are looking into other stuff. But it's it turns out that it's a lot easier to get a deal done if you have the book. Yeah. Going to a publisher saying that we're planning on making a book, will you will you carry it? And and they then they will most likely say, well, get

Dave:

Get back to us when you've got the book.

Magnus:

Yeah. Exactly. Otherwise, it's like yeah. I think a lot of people come there and say that, well, we we will we wanna make a book. Yeah.

Magnus:

But will you do it? And now that we have this huge tome, and it's a fantastic cover, at least I'm happy with the writing. And, I I think it'll be a lot easier to to, have it being carried. Mhmm. And we're hoping for the trade channels in the States, of course.

Magnus:

And that that should mean that it shows up in the UK as well.

Dave:

Yeah. Nice. It is a great read, and I haven't finished it yet, but I am 2 thirds of the way through. It is, and I'm really enjoying it. I have I do have one more question before we finish up.

Dave:

And, Matthew, have you got anything else to ask before we

Matthew:

No. No. Let's I think I mean, we could talk to Magnus all day.

Dave:

All day. Yeah. But, my wife will get angry when she's waiting for me to turn up for lunch. But, my last question is before we started recording, you were talking about, you know, a a retirement plan to sell off your game collection in many years' time. If you did do that Yeah.

Dave:

What one game would you not sell and keep from your collection?

Magnus:

I would keep the 1st edition of War of Fence Soulplay.

Dave:

Cool. Nice. Excellent.

Magnus:

I I would, the the next to last game would be the 2nd edition of Call of Cthulhu. Mhmm. And

Dave:

So think it at this point, you go you go through them all, and then you don't sell any of your collection.

Magnus:

Yeah. Exactly.

Dave:

That that

Magnus:

that'll be a thing. That Which

Dave:

is what would happen for me, probably.

Magnus:

Yeah. Exactly. But but has been really influential on on me and also on, a lot of the the writers in of Swedish warping games. And, it it's it's a monumental work.

Matthew:

Mhmm.

Magnus:

And I have so many fond memories of of the games we played when we played, Power by the Throne, for example. So, the influence on of UK games on the Swedish gaming industry is understated in this book, at least. And and I might want to revisit that some some time later.

Dave:

So so the final conclusion of of your book, How Sweden Conquered the World of Roleplaying Games, it's because of UK gaming. That's the answer.

Magnus:

That's the answer. Well, I I I, I I I I I have to be honest with this, and and I said that, I wrote the mutant chronicles roleplaying game, and that's a rip off of 40 k.

Matthew:

It does feel like a rip off of 40 k.

Magnus:

It does. Doesn't it? So so it's it's it is. It's also a a question of of Swedish roleplaying games have have always copied, other trends, other games, other people, until, Free League now that that they are more charting their own, way. And, of course, Neo games in the nineties and and Yeah.

Magnus:

Right minds and and so the newer game companies in Sweden are charting their own ways. We all hands we sort of like copy 1.

Matthew:

We've gotta shut Magnus up before he reveals. He's already inviting one lawsuit from from. There's no way anymore. No.

Dave:

No. Well, thank you so much, Magnus, for for coming on the show. It's always a delight to talk to you. I I could talk to you for hours, but my wife will kill me if I don't go in and I go in for lunch.

Magnus:

I'm happy to be here, and I hope to make a guest appearance once we, secure the rights so that I can remind, your audience that the book, secured rights of distribution. So I can remind your audience that now soon it will be in the shops as well.

Dave:

Yeah. So it's always a real pleasure to talk to Magnus. We ought to do it more often. He is such a lovely guy, and he's such a pleasure to talk to. And next time I, we, you go to Stockholm, we must make a point of inviting him out for dinner, or at least a few beers because he is a because he is a wonderful person.

Dave:

No, but Yeah. I just want No. The Swedish prices, like, a beer. True.

Matthew:

True. Well, we'll have to put it on the company, you know, making a tax deductible. Well, hold on. We've only got £30,000 from that book.

Dave:

Well, that's that's that's true. That's true. Yeah. That yeah. That'd be

Matthew:

Swedish prices.

Dave:

In government. Yeah. That's true. No. I just wanted to say, I mean, yeah.

Dave:

It was it was it was lovely to to get the book. It is actually a lovely book. I mean, it's a real, it's got a real nice heft to it. A really good feel. It looks beautiful.

Dave:

And you know, I will not I wasn't just blowing smoke to be nice about how much I'm enjoying reading it, because I am really enjoying reading it. I've got about a quarter left now. We we call it recorded the interview yesterday. Mhmm. I think, and I've, you know, I've read some more since then.

Dave:

Yeah. And it's just a real pleasure. And it's it's fun. I'm looking forward to to reading all the bits about you and me.

Matthew:

Yeah. Then You

Dave:

wanna get there?

Matthew:

I think we've read the bits about you and me. We get mentioned in the acknowledgments and, around page 270 as creators or not creators of the alien game, as the team of creators for the alien game. I think that's it. Right?

Dave:

The the

Matthew:

chapter on the the impact of the Effect podcast on the global gaming scene, sadly, is waiting for the 2nd edition.

Dave:

Sadly, didn't get past the editing editing. No. Yeah.

Matthew:

It's a it was the best chapter. They just said, Magnus is just too good.

Dave:

Yeah. You're you're setting the standard too high with this chapter. And the content is too interesting. We can't give that to people because it'll affect them for the rest of their lives. Anyway Well anyway

Matthew:

We did say we'd keep this recording short. It's already well over an hour for you guys listening. Yeah. So, shall we? Next time, hopefully, we will have Anders,

Dave:

An Andreas Lundstrom. Andreas Even. Yeah. Yeah. From, Nordic Skalds and

Matthew:

Talking about my father's sword. Not my father's sword. My father never had a sword. I've got plenty. But,

Dave:

there yeah. I'm Who

Matthew:

That Sounds a

Dave:

bit weird. Yeah. The kids the kids the kids

Matthew:

Don't go there.

Dave:

The kid the kid bit in my brain just kicked in there.

Matthew:

Yeah. I noticed that.

Dave:

Right. We'll we'll try and do that. End quickly. Yes.

Matthew:

And it's goodbye from me.

Dave:

Yeah. And it's goodbye from him.

Magnus:

And may the icons bless your adventures.

Dave:

You have been listening to the effect podcast presented by Fiction Suit and the RPG Gods. Music stars on a black sea used with permission of Freeleague Publishing.

Magnus:

Well, if you're an international customer and you want to buy the book, at the moment we only sell the PDF, and that is available at, fanbrake.com, where you can, look for the, look for the cover and, and click and then order the PDF from there. We're working on international distribution, but, it'll take some time. It's a lot easier now that there is a book that that Fenric actually can can show to people and say that, hey, this this here is a book. So that that's a good thing. So we're hoping for, physical, copies being out in the channel as soon as possible basically.