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We are discussing the biggest challenges that are currently holding back the field of speech-language pathology. We present the issues with facts and invite you to be a part of joining our movement to make things better, one conversation at a time. Let's fix SLP!
Hosted by Jeanette Benigas, PhD, SLP
Megan Berg 0:00
Hi, everyone. I'm Megan Berg
Jeanette Benigas 0:02
and I'm Dr. Jeanette Benigas.
Megan Berg 0:04
And we are here to fix SLP.
Jeanette Benigas 0:06
We are discussing the biggest challenges that are currently holding back the field of speech language pathology.
Megan Berg 0:12
We present the issues with facts and invite you to be part of joining our movement to make things better one conversation at a time.
Jeanette Benigas 0:19
Let's fix SLP.
Megan Berg 0:31
All right, welcome back, everybody to the fix SLP podcast. Before we dive into our topic today, which is all about fear, and the culture of fear in speech language pathology, a couple of housekeeping things. First of all, Jeanette is here with us, but she's driving at the moment. And that was unexpected. So you'll, you might hear some difference in her audio as she transitions between driving and then getting on zoom on her computer.
And also, for those of you who ordered the fix SLP t shirt, those have been sent out so you should get those soon. And definitely snap a selfie or get someone to take a photo of you and share the photo with us. So we can put that in our stories. And we will be doing one more short order of those. So if you did not get in the first round, you have a chance to order that again in the next round, which we will announce soon.
But yeah, with that I know we have we're gonna have to keep this episode to an hour because we all have to be done by then. So we're gonna get right into what we want to talk about.
And we have a special guest here with us today Dr. Ianessa Humbert who's going to join us for this conversation. If you have not checked out NSOs podcast called evidence and argument that she did with Dr. Meredith Herold, I definitely recommend just binge listening to that I think it's 10 episodes, very engaging about a lot of the, you know, similar issues that we're talking about. And they go into the historical context of speech language pathology and some of the cultural pieces that we're going to talk about today. And then she also hosts the Down the hatch podcast. So if you work in the realm of dysphasia, definitely check that out as well. But in a second, you just let our listeners who don't know you. Tell us a little bit about yourself.
Ianessa Humbert 2:27
Sure. So I've been in the field of speech pathology since the late 90s. Got my master's in 2000. And I then got a PhD where I focused on swallowing and swallowing disorders, and did the whole academic thing, you know, did my PhD at the NIH and Howard University postdoc at University of Wisconsin Madison. I was on the faculty at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine for about eight years, University of Florida, University of Iowa, all studying swelling physiology, and getting millions of dollars in NIH grants and other foundational grants. And then I decided that academia wasn't okay for me anymore for various reasons. It just felt like a club that I had to keep fighting to stay in. And a lot of the rules felt like they were based on,
you know, older, richer, white men, and we were all sort of just trying to fix herself into those moments. And so I decided to leave academia, I had already started a company on the side called swallowing trading education portal, step community.com. And we're in Kibera and Dani baisa Is the co founder of that. If you are on the medical SLP Facebook group, she is the founder of that Facebook group, and she's a speech pathologist, and I specifically loved working with her because she's a clinician. Over my career, I've gotten a lot of trouble with the prestigious PhDs for bringing in clinicians on clinical issues. And that kind of got me ousted. It's my thing getting ousted in various ways. So that company has done really well. And we now have 35,000 enrollments. And we have regular memberships over 10,000 for people who are like I need to learn about swallowing to treat my patients. I didn't get this in grad school. And most recently, I am the CEO of swallowing wellness. It is the world's first outpatient clinic for people with swallowing disorders. The flagship location will be in Washington, DC, and will scale nationally Think of us as the DaVita of swallowing. We are planning to have a national company that is specifically SLPs building and promoting what SLPs do best outside of environments where they have to beg and scream and crawl for any respect, namely the medical and educational institutions as they exist right now. So I'm currently funding getting funding for that and we hope to have our first location opened in 2020 for
Megan Berg 4:58
up to a few little things
Ianessa Humbert 5:00
It is. And let me just tell you the number one question I get from people is, how are you going to do this without your C's? I'm like, Dude, this businesses happen all over the world without their C's. Do you think the most of them, manufacturers of products for speech pathologist don't even have a clinical degree and much less than SLP, much less sees, but they create products for speech pathologist to use with patients? So, you know, it's just ideas like there's this barrier to thinking, you know, yeah, yeah. And when Jeanette and I were talking about recording this episode, I mean, it's this topic of fear has come up so much between the two of us because that's the sense that we get like, as we launch this fix, SLP platform, and we start talking about these issues. There's just a lot of fear. And like we thought of you because you don't let this like even though you're trying to you're existing in a space that is trying to oust you, you're not letting that fear get to you and you're moving forward, you're innovating. You're the work that you're doing individually, is helping move the entire profession forward. So I think, you know, you've done a lot of work, and you have a lot of perspective around not letting fear win. And so I guess maybe that's just a good place to start is like why do you think that fear is such a cultural aspect of this profession? Great question. First things. First thing that we need to remember is that humans need fear, it keeps us out of trouble, just like we need pain to keep ourselves from hurting ourselves very badly. fear and pain and negativity keep us in the bounds of living a life where we're not running off cliffs, because we have fear of falling. Babies have that, you know, if you lower them too quickly, they get afraid. We're born with certain reflexes that are life saving mechanisms. Another life saving mechanism that we all have born and bred into us, is for millennia, if you were ousted from a social group, it was a death sentence, there was a time where humans had to move collectively, in order to stay alive. I'm not talking about a place now where we have modernized industrialized systems, and safety nets, where if you're laying on the street, somewhere, someone will call an ambulance and get you fixed up, and you might not even have money, they fix you first and then hope you can pay later on. And so that natural urge the people who lived live because they had that natural urge, and then they were passed on those traits to their babies. So it's really been crystallized and just solidified in us. That said, we don't have the capacity to separate out moments where fear of being ousted in fear of communal rejection is a real phenomenon, and we shouldn't be really afraid of because it's a life or death versus okay, they didn't like the color of or brand of my shoes I had on today, right? And are just like any other fight or flight fear or fun that we go through your your central nervous system just goes into zero or 10, right? It just doesn't know how to sort of differentiate this is a 10, because you're gonna die, or this is a three because they don't really like you. And you can you can continue on. So that said, All humans have this. Now our field of speech pathology has a very special case, when you asked me that question, you essentially asked me a question whether people like this or not about the culture of white women, right? So it's probably something you guys could say you could say the same sentence I just said, and you're gonna get a safety net associated with saying that if I say it, I'm complaining about white men, I don't like them. Oh, it's mine. But the fact is that women in general have been socialized differently than men. And it's neither good nor bad balance is amazing. You can be in more a agentic style person where you're about independence, where do I rise? Where do I shine? Who do I need to, you know, bludgeoned to get what I want, all the way to super communal, self sacrificing, etc, women tend to be on the self sacrificing communal helping professions side of the world more nurturing. And there are certainly physiologic mechanisms, mechanisms and social mechanisms, mechanisms that have put them there. However, in more industrialized countries where white people rule, white women have been the ones to protect meaning in a way the patriarchy wins, because their women are safe. Their women are taking care of their women XYZ are listening and submissive, when that has been the dominating way that our world has come into play. It only makes sense that whether or not you've been told that directly or not in your household by your parents, you get those effects by Hollywood, by comments from people who said, well, she's not very nice. And you notice none of the men that comment by women who say it's, it's nice to be important, but it's also important to be nice. If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all. All those things that we keep hearing some people internalize them more because they're associated with their value system, as Am I important, some people don't. And the more
You go down the line of subcultures. So now we have humans that we have women than we have white women that were white women and helping helping profession, then you have white women and a helping profession that are outsiders, when they go to their setting, because they're neither education obvious or medical obvious, we have now have to be scrappy, and beg for anything in these settings. And it's a terrible mismatch, because we have the same fear everybody else, but we're now put into a place where our fear debilitates our capacity to move forward, and really just rally for ourselves. Yeah, yeah.
Megan Berg 10:34
And so then what happens is the CCC comes in and sort of gives us this artificial.
It's not confidence, it's just this artificial level of competency. Yeah. And, and then we're all afraid that if we don't have that, that there's no way that will be accepted. And we've talked about this organizational identity, where like, once we become identified with the organization, and we feel like the organization is protecting us, quote, even though they may or may not be doing that, it's, it's really hard for women and white women in particular, to leave that system or feel like it's safe to leave that system that they could survive and do just fine. Without it. Sorry, Jeanette, what were you gonna say?
Jeanette Benigas 11:22
I was gonna say exactly what you just finished with that I really feel like, it's this artificial, or I was gonna use the word false. This false sense of protection, like someone is protecting me. And it will be as we lovingly referred to as Big Daddy Asha. And, yeah, that organizational identity issue and a false sense of security.
Megan Berg 11:46
Yeah, and what I think is interesting is, I've seen enough comments that are like, I asked my husband about this. And I'm like, why? Like, I just I don't know, I mean, maybe this is happening in other places where men are being like, well, I asked my wife for advice on this professional issue. But I don't think so like, I don't think that's what's going on in our society. And then like, the private messages we're getting, are like, Am I allowed? Am I allowed to teach a course qualified for Ashesi ease? Or CPUs if I'm not Asha certified, like, Am I allowed to do anything. And I think this is what's holding the field back, because we're not being innovative or not taking risks, or not comfortable disagreeing with each other, because we're so worried that we're going to do something wrong. And then we're going to be ousted from the community, we're not going to have that belonging. And then we're going to lose everything that we've worked so hard for. And so until SLPs, are able to internalize that we are enough with our degree, and we are enough, just engaging in the profession just as ourselves. And we don't need ASHA. I mean, ASHA, can stay and keep doing what they're doing. But it should be completely an option if you want to be associated with them.
Ianessa Humbert 13:06
Yeah.
So may I say something about what you just said? Sure. So when you talked about asking for permission, there's a book called Women don't ask. And any book you read about empowerment or influence, there's usually a chapter called just ask, you're not asking. There are all these experiments about if somebody if a woman, I learned this while I was in University of Wisconsin Madison, some of the people who ran the grant, there were very powerful woman who studied women's behavior. And they said, even when it comes to hiring, a woman oftentimes will say, it's not fair that this younger man with less experience came in and is now my supervisor, and I trained him. And to the higher ups, they'll say, Oh, well, he came to us and had a meeting asking if he can get pretty good. He sold himself and we just said, okay, because he asked, and she was like, but I figured if I showed how good I am, you guys would ask me. And it there's this interesting thing where I almost wonder whether or not the courting behavior that we expect of men prepares them to go and take risks and experience rejection in ways that women aren't used to how many women have gone up to the person over and over again, to a bar to a country club to church and say, Man, your hottest shit? Can we go on a date or whatever the hell comes to your mind? How many? How much experience do we have putting ourselves in these situations? Besides Mama Bear, this is my child, I will kill you like forget that. Because even men will do that. What is the thing that women uniquely have to experience as part of the culture, the Korean culture, or whatever it is where we are like you are not a woman, unless you go up to that person and say what you want and ask them and get rejected. We don't have that then suddenly, we go to these corporate places that we believe that we belong in and we haven't had any real socialization for it. Now. I'm not
Not saying that men are prepared because they can harass you in the street. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that it's also not the case that I can think of something where society says, in order to be a woman, a real woman, you have to be able to tackle uncomfortable conversations being rejected in your face asking when you're not prepared, showing up and trying to blase or like, fake, you're fake your way through a corporate meeting, until they see go to the golf club, and just schmooze with the guys. There is no social order behind that. And so I think that's often why we don't ask and so perhaps we need that practice. And as you know, we don't know how to do it, because we keep saying, someone's got to come and save us. Do you know how many MLK of SLP emails I get? I know if anyone's going to save us, it's you. And these were the people who were asking me about help for what to do on their job. The time that I could take digging into Sarah, and Sally's job, and did you say this? Did you say that? Did you say they could have done it already? So what stops them from saying no, I'm not going to be on bus duty anymore. I'm a speech pathologist. What stops them from doing that is practice and experience. So to your point, experience with adversity is as important with experience with anything else in our field. Yes, diversity in so many ways matters. But diversity, in your experience with adversity goes a long way to continuing understanding what it's like to fight for something you care about, and not taking half of it as personally as you should.
Jeanette Benigas 16:34
I have something to say to that point, too. I think, also, in that practice of asking, we are also conditioned to like, sit down and shut up. Because perfect example is why I'm driving right now. I was trying to leave a hospital. And my car was in valet. And we were quoted a 45 minute time and an hour came and went and I kept asking, Where's my car, and I kept being treated like I was the problem. Why the person actually said to me, you were told the time when you checked your car in? Well, at this point, it's been beyond the pelvis time. And if I wouldn't have kept pushing, we would still be sitting there because it turns out someone made a mistake. And our car was never called up in the first place. But you know, it's you have to be okay with kind of being shamed like that. And you just have to keep pushing, and is that practice. But if you're, if you're treated like you need to sit down and shut up, that doesn't mean you should sit down and shut up, you have to be okay with continuing to push. Because we're, again, you weren't like someone what have you already said, you know, we're expected to be nice and be courteous. And sometimes you just have to stand up for yourself.
And I bet you, if I was a man, they would have taken care of it on the first app. But it took it took almost two hours for me to get my car today. I only live 75 minutes away, I could have had a lunch and gotten home before I talked to him guys. And instead now I'm driving.
Megan Berg 18:13
Well, it's I mean, yeah, it's interesting, like I grew up in a very white, very far right, very fundamentalist Christian community.
And to leave that like and to do have my own thoughts about things meant that I had to
oust myself, basically, right, like I had to leave the place that I quote, belonged, but I didn't want to belong. And I had to shed that identity and shed those connections and shed that whole identity and experience that was wrapped up in my whole core self. And I think
it's not just as simple as being like, we need to ask for a higher salary, we need to stand up for what we need. It's like, I think collectively as a profession, there's this sort of loss that I think we're all feeling and experiencing as fix SLP releases content. And more and more people start seeing some of the gaps in what's going on. There's just kind of this grief that I see happening. And it's like, we had this identity with Asha. And the CCC that sort of was this pseudo illusion of protection and identity and community. And, you know, we've just gotten to the point where Asha hasn't really sustained their ability to retain trust, and act with integrity. And so we're losing, that's just that facade is crumbling. And so I just want to say like for people listening to this, like, I do think if you're, like, me, see if I can put my words together. There's definitely a reaction that some people have of like
fuck like I'm getting rid of my C's. I never liked Asha anyway, I'm done with this. And I think the vast majority of people have SOPs that are more like, like, this feels icky. And I don't really know what to think. And I have to take the time to think about this. And this is bringing up all these really conflicting ideas. And that's why they're talking to their husbands. And that's why they're like, it's just, it feels like I think to Jeanette and me that it's taking a really long time for people to just understand the basics of what we're talking about. But I think it's not just understanding it, but going through that grief process of letting go of this illusion of what was and then kind of facing the future of Speech Pathology, which in my mind is like kind of a blank slate, like we get to write the future together. But I think that's also scary for SLPs. Because we're not relying on Big Daddy Asha to do it. For us. We're having to think critically about what we want and collaborate together. And like Jenna, and I keep saying like, invest in your state associations and do the legwork and actually do the work it takes to create a profession that we're proud to belong in, and that we feel safe, then not because somebody's protecting us. But because we are showing up as we are we're being valued and respected for what we have to offer. We feel like we have a stake in, in how people are being trained and the kinds of jobs and the kinds of regulations that are in place that affect all of us.
Ianessa Humbert 21:34
I have a suggestion that might be useful before you move on to a new topic, if that's okay.
One thing to remember is that I'm glad you suggested grief. And I think that most speech pathologist would say they experienced some level of oppression by being associated with a profession. Sure there are some have said, My I happen to land in the perfect job, I've never had problems, the SLPs before me lead the way that this institute happens to really respect us. And I love it here, I'd never leave blah, blah, blah, those are rare instances. Right. But to that point, that suggests that we actually have a really, really strong common goal. I don't know a person with this degree, who wouldn't agree that we want more respect, we want to be paid for what we're valued, XYZ, I think you could put together okay, the three of us were involved in at SLP Data Initiative, where we have data of 1000s, of speech pathologist aligning on a lot of topics. If we start with that, then we learn that there's common ground, what we're disagreeing on is how to do it. When you talk about grief. Grieving happens in different ways. And one is denial. One is to say, no, they're not gone, my No, my Daddy can't be gone, you guys are lying to me, he was the best thing, he can't be gone. And other people, like, get over and deal with it. Blah, blah, blah, we're going through that grief right now. And we're so busy grieving in different ways that we can agree on the same thing, which is, we need to move forward and figure out what's best for us. So something you may or may not be aware of is that other communities that have experienced with oppression, also have the same struggle. You know, there's this idea that everybody loves Martin Luther King and Malcolm X is also remember, they both caught a bullet, okay, one and two at the time, even the major black back to Baptist preachers back then he hated him, his approval rating was worse than Biden is now. That means and then when he died, suddenly, it was like his message was so powerful. Now you hear all these people who hated him way back when who were his age now or younger? Using his sermons every day, you know, to say, why why I marched with him, you mark with him with a gun in your pocket, or your you know, you said some things about I mean, they're this idea, this selective history that we all have, because now everybody's changed. It's going to happen, they're going to be people like, Yeah, I'm sure it Fix SLP, 20 years ago, and I was one of the early fighters, you know, you won't know you weren't the differences. We have the transcript from the comments.
We know from that, whereas we don't have those as much before, right. So just remember that even in those communities, they all agreed around the same thing, which was, we want to be treated as equal, but they couldn't come to terms with how to do it. Now. This was life and death. This wasn't I would like for my boss to be nicer to me, I would like to have access to X ray for swallowing. And still as important as that issue was, we could not agree. And then finally, the same thing happens with oppressed women, right? And there's this theory I have you guys let me know. But as either white women or black men, and I'm in either of those categories, you're second to the top right, black men, if they were just white, they'd be on the top white women, if they were just male, they'd be on the top. And there's something about being so close yet so far away. And while you might argue that black men are even farther because they're probably not
Raising the oppressor, they're probably not raised by the oppressor not marrying the oppressor, etc. They're not sleeping next to them being courted by but somehow this dissonance like I always wonder as a black female who doesn't have the same adjacency to white males, what's it like to raise them to be raised by them to do all these things and still know that the next generation is going to do the same thing? Right? When that's the case, it must be super frustrating. But it's sometimes keep keeps people from having the conversation, I would argue the conversation that needs to be had really is among white women about what it is to be white and how it's impacted you, I think I would be somebody who would make it difficult for that conversation to happen. Because there are inside things that as black people we want to talk about without white people there for all kinds of reasons. But I really think conversation about whiteness, white femaleness, whatever that is, and things you hadn't thought to think about until now, how that's impacting you is probably a nice course of action that I don't have a place in. But I just wonder if that would be helpful. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Megan Berg 26:07
Okay,
looking over our notes, do we want to talk about
ethics and the ethics board? Because I think this feeds into why we hold on to the CCC. And this fear of letting it go is like, if we don't have the CCC, how would we be policing everybody on with the ethics board. And I just want to clear up for people that Asha is in a really weird position with their ethics stuff, because they sell a product.
And so because they sell the certification, they only have jurisdiction over the people who opt into their certification product. And because they sell a product, they can't hold other companies accountable, because that would be considered anti competitive behavior by the Federal Trade Commission.
So for
Unknown Speaker 27:10
kind of a comparison, a OTA and APTA they are similar membership associations, but they do not sell a certification product. They have an ethics board, like they have ethics board in the words and ethics rules. But in their field, it's different because basically, anyone who calls themselves a physical therapy or physical therapist or occupational therapist is held to those ethics standards. And because they're not selling these products, they're not in this awkward position that Asha is in where they can only regulate the people that opt into their certification, if that makes sense.
Megan Berg 27:55
So like, I think it's perfectly reasonable and possible, because a OTA and APTA do it that you can fully
set the standards of a profession, like these associations, they can set the scope of practice.
What else can we do, they can define, like best practices, right? Which is, again, when all three of them do. But ASHA takes it a step further with the certification. All three of them have an entity that accredits universities. And Ianessa, I'm curious what your thoughts are, as far as like, why is it that the Council for academic accreditation doesn't do a better job of holding higher standards?
So that they eventually feel like they need this extra layer of certification? Like, why can't the degree be enough? And why can't the CA just reshape their requirements so that when we graduate, the degree is enough to get a license, and we're not messing around with the certification nonsense? Well, if you think about it, what you're telling them to do is take the organization that you're affiliated with, and cut its profits by a lot. That's not going to happen. If they do that. And Asha doesn't get the millions of dollars that it's supposed to what does it serve them?
Ianessa Humbert 29:34
That they're not going to stop a system that benefits them and for what gain so that people can pay less money? Because really, that's the game here. Right? Their job is to ensure that the degree itself is good enough. They've done that right now, not enough. There's a minimum standard. Somebody after that says, Okay, now pass us that degree that ca says good so we can charge you to do these other things.
If that's not the CAA saying, Yeah, you know, we're doing this to the tune of the seas, they're doing it because of the big nine, right? I just don't see what the big what why they would do it. I don't know why they would go against take all the smoke and heat. Because some people want to don't want to spend the money, what's in it for them, there's absolutely nothing in it for anybody at any of these organizations to make the change nothing. And I think that's what we have to realize that if you understand that, there's literally no reason why they would do this, you have to have your reason why you would want to fight with them. And of all people, you can probably imagine, I more than anyone on the entire planet have an issue with the ashes ethics board, right? And it's known it's ricocheted over and over and over and over again, that these are their ethics board has a major problem. So but what what what did they get out of trying to trick me from ICS for not for zero violations? Nothing. They just do what they do. And again, that's a great example of how grassroots movements made them change their mind not because they found that you know, what, I think we actually messed up here. It's because they didn't want to be seen in the public eye, as somebody who would as a group that would do this. That's what happened. So again, if you don't come together as a group, and this is where I just want to say that right there, I made a suggestion and a discussion around white women, and it was met with Okay, by both of you. This is up to the 90% the majority of our field, which is made up of white women. So what you know, what is what is I'm just going to counter and say, what, what is the barrier? Like? What is it about? Oh, yeah, sure. Sorry. I thought you said when you're not a part of that conversation that you meant we could move on. But I didn't mean to dismiss it. I was curious about your thoughts about the idea that that's likely an important factor. If the 10% of the of this population of our field go hard? Because we've had issues with adversity at some point. That's still just the 10%? What if 1% change happened from 90%? of people? Isn't that a much bigger response? than if 10% go really in screaming?
Megan Berg 32:30
Yeah.
I think collectively as a profession, when we look at, you know, the 92%, white 96%, female population of Speech Pathology, I think there does have to be a collective ownership and recognition of the position of privilege that we're all in, and how that position of privilege prevents us from taking risks. It prevents us from allowing space for other perspectives. Because what, what ends up happening, like what you were talking about when you're adjacent to the very, very top positions of power, is there's this sense of scarcity or the sense of like, if I give some power up, then other people are going to take that from me.
Which then creates that culture of scarcity. So it's like this. It's just a mess of a culture of scarcity, a culture of wanting to stay protected. And that desire, that that very desire is what cements our position as the field, like until we can collectively to whatever extent possible, acknowledge that letting go of that, quote, protection is the very key to our own freedom. We're not going to get anywhere, but but like, trying to have that conversation with other white women, at least in my experience.
It's like,
it's like,
Why, I guess the feeling that I get back or the response that I get back is like, why would you do this? Why would you dismantle this system? That yeah, like maybe it's not perfect. But it's, it's enough like it's enough for the people that are in it, to keep us where we want to be. And the reason that that white women feel that way is because there's just enough regulation to make people scared. So there's just a handful of states that require the CCC to build Medicaid. There's 1.5 states that require the CCC to get a license. And that's just enough privilege to be like it. It's not really worth it, it's not really worth it for me to dismantle this system, because it's cheaper and easier for me to pay $199 A year than it is to critically analyze how fucked up this is, and how it's really only benefiting a small group of us. And it's keeping everybody out. And that is the core issue because until other people can come in, and until we can have conversations and be
at a place where it is safe to have different perspectives and different approaches, we're going to stay stuck in 1985 with the same treatment methods and the same pseudoscience floating around like we've talked about, they're so often where the field is just stuck. And so that again, that stuckness goes back to that just enoughness that just enoughness of like it's good enough. If I say anything, I might lose my position of power.
What do you think Jeanette?
Jeanette Benigas 36:19
Yes, like I was sitting here shaking my head. Yes. Also, what I wanted to do was recognize that we have had conversations privately, and we've never talked about it on air here or in any kind of tile.
We have privately recognized our position of power here. And privilege, really, as white women, because we're not coming up with anything new. We recognize that people like Inessa and Jordan, Carroll and a bunch of other women who don't happen to be white women have been screaming some of this stuff on the internet for years. But it wasn't until two white women started saying it that everybody jumped on board. And that's really unfortunate. And we're very aware of that. And and I can't speak for you, Megan, but I'm pretty sure you feel this way too. It's a huge feels like a huge burden, and also a responsibility that we represent this right for everybody. And we we do this the right way. And that everybody is included in the conversation whether they are white, black, red, yellow, male, female, no gender, whatever that, that.
It's a privilege that we're the ones that caught on. But it's not just our message, this message came before from a lot of people. And
Megan Berg 37:43
I don't but I guess I will say to that, like, it's, it's just interesting, because, I mean, we've had a lot of other conversations to where I'm spiraling, like, we'll get a hate message, we'll get feedback that it's like,
threatening our livelihoods. And I'm like, I don't know that I want to do this anymore. And that, like, that is what Ianssa is talking about. That's why women privilege of like, the freedom to feel offended that people don't like what I'm saying, and that they should listen and that I have a we have a platform where we get to say what we want and people do listen, and yes, still, the fear is there. So no,
Ianessa Humbert 38:28
I just I want to say something about your introduction, Megan, because I didn't think I'd say anything about it until you said that, which is you said that I have been in you're just reflecting what I said, the idea of being an outsider, and you said and it hasn't affected you. And I wonder why you think that's the case. Why do you think it hasn't affected me?
Megan Berg 38:54
I'd have to go back and listen, if that's what I said. I think it I think I said that it doesn't stop you.
I just want to interrupt myself here and say nice try Megan. But let's go back and listen to what I did say you're existing in a space that is trying to oust you. You're not letting that fear get to you and you're moving forward, you're innovating.
But to answer your question, I think that I do have a perception that it doesn't bother you because
you keep going. You don't back down.
You keep I mean, you just keep showing up and you keep believing in yourself and doing things that you know nobody else is doing.
Jeanette Benigas 39:43
I think you're a strong voice and even if you've had fear and maybe chosen not to speak up or do things in some situations as outsiders watch it because DNS I've been watching you before you and I knew it before you knew who I was and I I know we've talked
about it. But I don't think you remember our first conversation where you were so generously giving me mentorship over the phone, just some girl off the internet, you're like, can we get on the phone and I was like, Sure. And I don't know where this was in your transition out of academia, but it was definitely pre COVID, probably like 2019 2020. So I've been watching and paying attention, and you take the risks that a lot of people are afraid to take. So maybe not so much that it hasn't bothered you, but that, you know, you keep going, at least to some degree, and that's a thing to be respected. I really respect that about you. And
you put out good work too, damn it, like you just do good stuff like so I actually called him back for more started with a phone call. And, you know, I not paid to say this no sponsorship here, but I purchase your products, because they're fantastic. So, you know, you're just you just do you do the things you do them afraid, probably too. And, you know, thank you for saying all that.
Ianessa Humbert 41:03
But courage, courageous, people aren't unafraid, we just do it anyway. And there are parts of me that are just like, um, hold my beer, you know, very much that way. And there are other parts of me that are like, I just don't feel like I have what it takes to care. I just don't want to bother with being treated this way. In that way, I don't want to be rejected by the community. Again, I just don't have I don't know if I care enough to bother, right. But you said Megan, something that I think really is key here. And you are going to have moments where people try to threaten you, and you're going to keep going anyway. And that is the work that when you get those moments, and you don't back down, you continue. That is that moment where you did you have five more reps in that set, and you're everything in that muscle group was on fire, and you finish that five sets, and then you came back to the gym, three days later sore, that's how you get those micro tears, and then you have it become that muscle becomes stronger and has to get micro tears in it. Otherwise, it will not rebuild itself, and then be stronger for the next time it needs to contract period. And we have that same thing happening in many areas, if we can have. I'm not suggesting anyone be so traumatized that they have to like go on a retreat to recover. I'm not talking about macro tears, right, which is what I would argue that I experienced. But micro tears are really much more manageable. When you have a community of people liking and sharing and saying you guys keep going this matters, it helps to balance things a bit more. So I you know, I commend you guys all the time saying this, this work is very important. It is true, it probably did have to happen because of you versus Jordan. And I I mean, the kinds of things that people through the grapevine said about SLP, social CEU and black SLP magic are just unfortunate, they weren't even going to attend. And this is not just white SLPs. This is also black SLPs, who just didn't like the idea of it, I had no idea that black, that SLP social scene would be so black, the ads had more white people in it than black people. But because Jordan and I were there, people were like, Oh, I identify with them. And it just was all black people. And we're like, Oh, good. Anyone who wants to be here should be here. That's how I felt about it. But then it turned into this as a black thing. I shouldn't go I don't belong there. And I was like, so how do you think we feel in this field? Right?
If you couldn't go to one event, because you didn't feel good? What about if you couldn't go to work? You can go to give that talk? You couldn't go to that country? There are countries that invited me to give talks, I'm like, oh, no, no, I'm not going to come back alive. They don't. The people who invite me don't know that they don't like people of African descent. But I do. So I have to make my decisions, right? Those kinds of things happen. And so for that reason, whatever the terror is micro, macro, whatever, that's where we need support and SLP solidarity has to sort of come before will is this going to validate me the question is, is it going to educate you? Is it going to strengthen you? I I believe that we have to be invalidated sometimes to understand you guys are doing that every day with your posts and people are like, but I thought the seas meant this and it's like it can but also it doesn't right. It's up there with Matt, you know citizen US citizenship when or the dollar being, you know, backing all these things, but they're not using the dollar anymore. My passport isn't better than anybody else's. Like it was a facade. You guys weren't necessarily better people. It was just what was this? This system was set up to do that so other people could fail. It happens all the time. Right? And so men are going through it. They're saying men are doing as well as they used to, and men are saying nobody likes men anymore. You know, everybody's going through their crisis and speech pathologists are rightfully going through their crisis, crisis and men
Any of us in all kinds of ways are ushering each other through that crisis. Right? And social media is the head of that crisis 100% Social media what you guys are doing is getting so much attention from people who won't even talk to you about it and but know what's happening. That's power. That's influence. So you guys keep writing in that but just know that whenever you do get those micro tears in somebody's coming for you, you have a lot of people supporting you. I've seen you do it before making as well.
Megan Berg 45:31
Yeah, and I mean, I can I just add, like the micro tear could be something like removing the CCC from your signature and then facing maybe some backlash from a colleague or something that's a micro tear. But then just to continue our conversation of white privilege I think that's where we get stuck is like we have one micro tear and then we're like, oh shit, like I'm out. I can't I can't do it because we have such a low tolerance for being uncomfortable.
Ianessa Humbert 46:00
Can I say something about that? Yeah. Yeah. Uh, basically, in Weiss why have this meeting? Oh, Jeanette was a really a poster child of the swell physiology masterclass meeting we have in DC, and you embodied somebody who could go to the microphone be like, This is what I think and then maybe it was validated. And I'd be like, Okay, well, I was wrong. And it was good. It was good. And then in Hawaii, we did something similar, except there's a particular prompt related to race. And the way that everyone was all energetic for the questions about pneumonia, questions about radiologists? Oh, my radiologist said this, oh, my patient didn't have pneumonia. And then we got to one about race. And suddenly nobody knew what the word meant. They're like Ric never heard of it before. You know, that's that was their response. So I went to lunch with Amy who co host it with me initially. And I was kind of baffled like, some that I didn't know that way. People don't like to talk about race, but I couldn't understand what is behind it. And like the same, you will tell me anything I said, so me. What tell me more about the reason for that. Do you do that? Because we're friends. So she tells me stuff. But in that setting? Would you have been that person she goes, I walk into a room and I fully expect that I'm going to be given the benefit out why would I open my mouth and lose any any level of prestige, respect answer, I'm going to keep my mouth shut and not know what kind of muck I might be stepping into. Because it's just not worth it. And I was like, of course, of course, I assume I'm not going to fit in. So I have I give myself more options or more right to just be authentic. Because no matter what the hell happens, I'm going to walk and people don't think I'm Dr. Humbert anywhere they think I'm persistent, and think whatever, you know, whatever it is, they think I'm a trainer, you know, whatever they want to think. So I already know I have a lot of practice with trying to show up. And I think if people had to have more practice, right now, speech pathologists go to Asha, and 90% of them look like people around them. And unless they open their mouth, they don't have to stand out as the as the bitch who said this, or the glorious one who said that they have the right to sort of just blend in until their real opinions are either so rising up to their throat where they have acid reflux, to the point they have to say it, otherwise they can go home and just deal with it right? And just like a couple of posts here and hope those people those brave people take care of it. So that when that happened, I came back and I really forced I let the silence happen. I was like, Oh, I love me some pregnant pauses. What baby? Are we going to birth because we're not going to stop until we talk about this. And eventually people did. And afterwards, you know, you get all the emails. I didn't want to say anything then but now release five paragraphs of how it really felt because I didn't have the capacity to say anything. Is it better than nothing? Absolutely. Does it work against the issues that we're having? Not at all. It doesn't work when you can't put your name? Put your John Hancock next to your opinion, that is next level courage. And if you can't say repost something and share it with your boss and not put your sees, then we're going to be exactly where we were we've ever been in our whole career or worse, because healthcare right now is rocked skyrocketing with AI and things. Why the heck would anyone pay for a speech pathologist if they could chat GPT AI themselves, their selves through therapy. There are so many Parana that I interacted with, where they can create all kinds of speech, understanding devices where they actually talk back to you and train you in conversation without dealing with the speech pathologist and showing up in finding parking and dealing with insurance. Why would they deal with us if we can't show our value now we will lose our value eventually. And I don't think people see it that way. Now. They see it as not not that ashes, if actually doesn't show up at least we'll have have what we have. Now if ASHA doesn't show up and do the thing we pay them to do we might not exist. We might be a telephone book. I have said that so many times even before this fix SLP stuff that we are becoming your
Jeanette Benigas 50:00
are irrelevant. We are We are losing our position
out there. Because we were, we're just letting everything come in and consume us. And eventually we're going to be consumed. I've said it 100 times, we are not going to have jobs anymore. We're going to put ourselves out of business. And we're seeing
Megan Berg 50:19
Dammit, we're gonna pay for that CCC if it kills us.
Jeanette Benigas 50:23
Give it after my name forced me to put it there, please. Yeah, what really matters? Yeah. And I I know, we're like getting close on time here. And I, I was like, prepared for this.
But a word we haven't heard yet that I know. Inessa is intimately familiar with, because it comes I think it came up in our masterclass is this idea of imposter syndrome. And I think that plays into this a lot too, with this imposter syndrome. And this opera, the institution identity syndrome and fear that it all is just this crazy triangle that
they all feed off of one another. And I think a lot of us have an issue with this imposter syndrome that, then we feel like we're in a place where we can't do anything, because we get a lot of messages to that say, I wish I could do something.
You can do something. And here's the 17 things you can do right now that aren't even that hard. And I we've gotten this man that message so many times that I actually have the answer pre written in my notes to copy and paste because I'm tired of I'm tired of typing it out. I just keep pasting it.
Yeah, I think
Ianessa Humbert 51:45
some people need help figuring out how to show up as themselves. Think about it. When I open the evidence and argument podcast, the very first thing Meredith says is tell us about yourself. I don't say I'm a wife, a mom, a speech pathologist, I'm from cannibal I say who I am, I talk about my quality. I talk about anything that if anybody who's ever met me, he had a had a list of characteristic characteristics. They check off these things about me no matter what walk of life, they found me in. Do you know how many moms and wives and speech pathologists, there are? So basically, at least 150 other 1000 other people, that's who I am. When your identity is tied in that you need practice getting out of it. And what you said about helping people I wonder if you guys have considered doing a what's it called? What's the thing that petition, you know, that that's actually helped me with my ethics thing, there were like 10,000 signatures in a very short time. And that was just me. I mean, if we're talking about CS, when you continue to say, well, you can click on this thing, you can please write your name, you can do it anonymously. But put your name on there, like quite a step forward, put your money where your mouth is, and you don't have to give money. But people did you know what I'm saying. And I didn't even make the petition, somebody else wrote it. For me, it was amazing. And if you guys get enough people, and you have like, if I can get 10,000 plus people, certainly you guys can get 50 to 70,000. That is a huge chunk, a great big percent of the people who are speech pathologist filling that thing out, and then they can see the numbers right now, let's say I signed my name to a thing is out there in the internet, when people still look me up, they can still find that link and click it now if they want to. So just a suggestion for action. You know, for people who don't know how to write a letter or don't know how to talk their boss, this is a way for them to get just be like, Okay, I want to micro tear, but I want to say where right, but at least they're doing it.
Jeanette Benigas 53:43
That's a great idea. I love it. We haven't done that yet. We haven't even really talked about it. I mean, we did the letter, I think early on. I'm always like, well, what is it? Like? What is the thing that would be in the petition? Because it's there's just so many layers to it. But I think a great place to start is with there's a deceptive pricing. There's a question you asked about answers to get to transparency, you have said, put a lot of polls where you ask questions and didn't get answers. And if you can call people and say what are your top three answers you want for from Asha? And you decide what those are through the polling and then you say we're going to do a petition where we show that Asha 60,000 People want to know the answer. Then you say Asha, please reply in this way to these questions. We're not saying reduce the cost, but this will help us to understand the cause we just want to understand right now, then you can build your way to other things where it's like, Why No, why is the cost built this way? What is so and so but right now? What was our money go to? How was it spent? Who decided all those kinds of things you're asking? I think a lot of people would want to know the answers to those questions. Yeah, it's a good idea. To just a suggestion and you guys are so capable. You don't need that I'm just speaking about something I know that people will
Ianessa Humbert 55:00
willing to do for a personal situation, which was their own money, which is way more important than Dr. Humbert sucks, you know, ethics case?
More salacious than anything else.
Jeanette Benigas 55:14
Thank you for saying that we're capable. And I like transparency with this too. privately. Meredith Harold said something like that in a conversation to us. And people should just know that we have no idea what we're doing. We're doing next I pray to no one taught us how to fix SLP. No, until we didn't know we were gonna have a viral movement. We were like, oh, we'll just make a couple posts. I'm going out of town. We'll circle back when you know, I get back. So you know, it's we're not neither of us have been equipped in any particular way to do this. But we're, you know, we're doing it, we're stepping out. We're doing it scared. I'm proud of you guys.
Megan Berg 55:52
I mean, I'm thinking of like, the conversation I had on Reddit where he was asking me like, What qualifications do you have to entitle you to take on this platform? And, and I think that's the question that every SLP is, is grappling with right now is like, what right do I have to doubt ASHA? And it's like, same way every right?
Ianessa Humbert 56:15
Same, right you have to doubt a physician who didn't listen to you, but suggested this medication, we go Wait, like, I just want what is this medication for? You, you don't even know we'll take a medication feeling like maybe they should have asked a question to take it anyway. Because you're afraid to ask your physician and that's their body. That's your money. This is your livelihood. This is your degree, you are a member of this club, by virtue of finishing the degree period. CS or not, there are a lot of people who can't keep up with the CS or can't pass a practice or all whatever the barrier is, who should also be filling this out all the AB BS out there who never got their PhDs, those people who don't get their seats, they have a stake in this too, because they invested money, what is the C's doing in keeping certain people out? So I think that you guys, just, you have every qualification? I love that question because it opens it up to say, as much as you do, actually, whoever said that, we all have the same qualifications. And if you'd like to fix this, if you want to make a post called Fix SLP, desperately, I might even enjoy it in that one. Because we have the same goal not to argue about the direction. But let's at least agree that we have the same goal.
Jeanette Benigas 57:20
I love that suggestion for all of our people who want to start a union, there's your platform, fix SLPs, we will follow you and support.
Ianessa Humbert 57:26
I will follow and support. I'm all for people trying to be along the path to fixing instead of sitting back complaining and saying they should shut up.
Thank you for letting me be on this conversation.
Megan Berg 57:42
Thank you for being here. I always know when we talk, my mind is going to be bent in ways that I may or may not be ready before and I really appreciate it.
Jeanette Benigas 57:49
Megan's gonna start spiraling tonight for some unknown reason. That's the thing when she brought it up earlier, she's like, I spiral, which you called tears. But So Megan spirals, and I told her this Ianessa, you might relate to this, too. I think I deal with these tears better because of academia, like all of this pushback and these student reviews. And like you, I just show up assuming I'm going to be the hated educator, because I'm difficult and my classes are hard, they're going to learn right? But, you know, that shows up when I didn't just hand them the A and you know, vegan spirals, but I show up with like a box of matches and like lint from
Ianessa Humbert 58:30
from what I can see you guys manage it differently. But effectively, she might need that psychological process of I just need to bet and say how I feel, but she shows up the next day and does it anyway. We just have practice shutting the fuck up when our Dean says something to us. Practice that, suppressing it and showing up to practice and expressing it and showing up but when he's showing up, and I love the balance well like when she's spiraling, I like pull her out a little bit or I when I'm like burning things down. She's there with a fire extinguisher like Jeanette, just calm down a little bit. And we meet nice. It's great.
Megan Berg 59:04
Thank you, Ianessa.
Ianessa Humbert 59:06
No problem. Talk to you guys again soon. Thank you. Bye.
Jeanette Benigas 59:11
I'm so glad that she agreed to come on. She's always so fantastic. We're going to not we don't have a review to read today. But you're going to share a message that we got permission to read. But before we do that, if you haven't yet, please click subscribe. Give us that five star rating. We I was looking at the numbers recently and we actually have more listeners on overcast than we do on Spotify. I think that's the platform. And so I downloaded and and checked that out and it looks like you can star it to its specific I looked into what their system does. And if you star the episodes or the podcast, it will get it into a higher algorithm. So that's where you're listening. Please give this episode all episodes and the podcast star. Again, that just helps five stars not just a star. Well it's one
One star, one star. Yeah, you tap it like your favorite. That's what I thought I was doing. And I was like, I should read about this it. Yeah, it puts it into the algorithm. And yeah, it's just like, almost like you're gonna favorite it for later. So we but yeah, now we need a five.
Megan Berg 1:00:18
I would just say to like, if you're a white female SLP, listening to this episode, maybe do a micro tear and share it bravely share it with another white, female SLP colleague or friend of yours, and then start a conversation. Because ENSO is right, like until we are all talking to each other about these issues, we're not going to make any progress. And so find safe places where you can have these conversations with other white female SOPs.
Jeanette Benigas 1:00:52
Yeah, no more being put on, I just want to I want to give a shout out and I wish I had her name. And I'm sorry, if you're listening, that I'm not remembering your name, but I'm remembering your face. At the top of the episode, Megan said, if you haven't gotten your T shirts, they're coming. I was at the Cleveland Clinic the last two days with a family member and
I wore my Fix SLP gear in hopes that like somebody is going to see this and somebody did see it and an entire family came over to speak with me about what fix SLP was. And as it turns out, one of the women it was she was with her parents, she looked very young, she looked to be close to a new clinician. So girl, if you're listening, and you are old, you you've got a great skincare routine. But
she didn't know what fix SLP was. And she and her parents were both shocked to hear some of the things that I told them. And they had already downloaded. You know, they saw the handle on my sweatshirt. And they already had it on their Instagrams and they were looking at it. But that just that proves the point that there are so many people out there who have not heard this message, who would love to hear it. So yet another reason to share so thank you to that family who came to talk to me, I was so happy to share with you and I was so happy to get to meet someone another SLP in the field. And she was from Tennessee. Okay, go ahead.
Megan Berg 1:02:21
That's awesome. Okay, and I just want to I feel like this is a very disjointed finale, but that's okay. I just wanted to say I used the phrase, find a safe space. And what I meant was find a brave space because it's not about being safe. It's about being brave. Okay. This was a message that was sent over social media and they are allowing us to share it with their permission says, Hi, I want to thank you for your page and work, I had to take a break from working as an SLP. For two years, however, I kept up with all my professional development hours. I'm now trying to start again working as an SLP. It's my fault for not understanding the rules fully.
But is it
the rules are very confusing. So they say it's not my fault, or it is my fault for not understanding the rules fully. However, I was blindsided to learn I had lost my CS, and would have need to retake the practice if I wanted them back. Even though intellectually I know I don't need to be a part of Asha to practice. And I'm still licensed in my state. I cannot tell you how overwhelming the feeling of losing my CS was it really felt like I had lost my actual license. And I had wasted my hard earned education. I didn't realize it had it had that sort of hold on me. I honestly think it's because of how it was explained and presented to us in grad school, Asha was presented as gatekeeper. I've always felt off about the ASHA system feeling like it was just a grab for money. And that feeling of being trapped into paying them for not a lot in return has only increased. I don't agree with how little benefit is offered in return for significant costs. I now also strongly disagree with the entrenched negative mental stress imposed seemingly by design. So thank you for helping bring the effects to light and ease the anxiety created by the currently accepted system.
I like how they call it the currently accepted system. Like it's not the system. It's a system. We're all currently accepting it and it doesn't have to be this way.
Jeanette Benigas 1:04:25
Yeah, I agree. I think that's a great place to end. So we actually have two episodes in the can. You spoke with someone from Lebanon, I spoke from Brea from Ohio, who got Medicaid rates up with a team of people over multiple years. So those episodes will be coming. And it will just say like we'll see you guys next time. Thanks for fixing it.
Megan Berg 1:04:48
Bye.