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Real faith. Real life. Hosted by Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown of Sandals Church, The Debrief Podcast goes beyond Sunday conversations—diving into the questions, stories, and struggles that shape who we are. Thoughtful. Honest. Unfiltered.
Welcome to the debrief podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown, where we take questions about faith, the bible, and culture, and give you honest practical advice you can trust. This is a space to ask anything and get real answers for real life. We're glad you're here. Now let's get into today's episode.
Pastor John Martinez:Welcome back to the debrief podcast with Matthew Steven Brown. Let's get into today's episode. This question is from Gio from Instagram. Says, is it okay as a Christian to listen to non Christian music such as hip hop, R and B, and reggaeton, etcetera? Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You can listen to everything but R and B. God hates R and B. No. I'm kidding. I'm totally kidding.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, I think that the more you grow in Christ, the harder it is to listen to secular music. It's just the reality, because so many of the things they're singing about are things that you don't believe in, that you absolutely disagree with. You know, so much of music tends to be about sex, hopelessness, suicidal thoughts, behaviors and attitudes, the way that it speaks about women, the way that it speaks to people of color, specifically in rap music. Man, I just, I can't get behind that, that's not me. And people make fun of, I think, wrongly so, Christian music and Christian artists, and I just I support everything that God fearing people do, and I don't even think it has to be Christian music.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Just has to be stuff that's positive and not satanic or evil. You know? You just really gotta watch. And then for me, I don't know about you, what did you listen to when you were a kid? Do you remember?
Pastor John Martinez:Well, when I was a kid, my mom raised us in the church, and she would only let us listen to music that was like on the Wow Christian hit. Okay.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So what'd you say?
Pastor John Martinez:So contemporary Christian Newsboys. Okay. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I like the Newsboys. Yeah. Remember he had the drum where he would spin around? Yes. You ever sing at the concert?
Pastor John Martinez:But like the old Newsboys, like that song Shine, Michael W. Smith, like those those things. Yeah. My mom, deep cut, she loves Brian Duncan.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay.
Pastor John Martinez:Do you remember Brian Duncan?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. I I had dinner at his house one time. Really? Yeah. One of the most bizarre evenings of my life.
Pastor John Martinez:I found out that he's a little odd. Yeah. But yeah, like just listened, I was only able to, and allowed to listen to that kind of music for
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:him, Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, the challenge with Christian artists is it's hard to manage fame whether you're Christian or not. And so when you're a rock star, and I don't mean you, but you know, you get permission to indulge in behaviors that for most people, everyone would say, hey, that's a problem, that's too far. And so I think, like with Christian rock stars, what they end up doing is they just live two lifestyles. Don't know you heard about, what's the black guy's name in DC talk? Michael Michael Tate, you know, who, it came out for years, was living a double life, and so I think that's the problem is a Christian rock star can't be authentic about what they're struggling with, and keep their fans, so what they do is they live a double life, and at the end of the day, I don't just want to be entertained by Michael Tate, I want Michael Tate's soul to be connected with and I want him to have a genuine and real relationship with God.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I think the issue is twofold. Here's the thing that really bothers me though, is Christians, right, we wanna listen to secular music, but we don't support Christian music. Me Like, trying to get people to buy my book, Christians would shame me. I'm like, it's $10. Get over it, dude.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They wouldn't think twice about ordering a book from a secular author, but when it's a Christian author, Christians get all cheap, and I'm like, that's why the stuff that you want to listen to isn't any good, because you don't support, and oh, by the way, tear down music artists, writers, poets, filmmakers. I mean, Christians just don't show. And I mean, I can tell you, have a good friend of mine, Darren, who's a Christian movie producer, and it's hard to get Christians to come out to a movie. I mean, it's just really, really difficult. Now, they'll come if it's free, but movies aren't free to make.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So what I would say is you really, really gotta look at the lyrics. Here's what I did with my kids. I would just read the lyrics to them. Mhmm. So take the beat away, take the music away, and I would just say, what do you what do you want me to do with this?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And and I think it's for all of this. When my son was in seventh grade, there was a superhero movie that came out that was just really repulsive, really foul, it was rated R, and I just said, look, man, you you can't watch that, and I said, I'm not gonna watch it either. So, and it's not just because you're 12, this isn't God honoring. He was Deadpool that came out when he was in seventh grade, and you know, a lot of Christian parents that would be horrified because I said a slightly provocative word on Sunday think nothing about letting their kid watch that or go to it. I mean, we had we had families in our church that got groups together to go see it, and I was like, that's just not happening.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So what I would just say is let's not label hip hop, R and B, reggaeton, all of that stuff. You know, I like Bob Marley. Is that reggaeton, or is that different?
Pastor John Martinez:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay. It's So I like Bob Marley. I like some of that stuff, but I'm not gonna sit and listen to smoking weed all day, and being stoned all day. Just not helpful for me, but some of this stuff I really, really love, I really, really enjoy. It just depends on the music.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And it's funny because I swore I would never listen to country music because I hated it as a kid, but as I've gotten older, it's like the last thing that I can listen to. And that's not to say that country music isn't bad. Sometimes it's really bad. It's just kind of camouflage bad.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So what I would say is, is it uplifting? Is it encouraging? Is it promoting healthy, godly things in your life, or is it enhancing lust? Is it sucking you into a mentality of, I gotta be rich, I gotta be famous? Does it dehumanize women and portray them as sexual objects?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I mean, we just have to do better at that. So I would say, let's not label a group, but let's look at every song individually, and just ask yourself. I would just say read the lyrics to yourself, then if you don't have kids, if you had a kid, would you want them to listen to this?
Pastor John Martinez:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I think it's a tough thing, but I want to be encouraged, I want to be uplifted, I want to connect with God, and so I listen to that stuff. And I try to support Christian artists. I'm 54 years old now, so I'm not listening to a ton of music, but when my kids were little, we would go to, what was that big collection of Christian artists they had every year at the racetrack?
Celeste Contreras:Fish Fest.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, Fish Fest. So we would go to that, we'd camp, we'd go see DC Talk, we would go see, who did you say, Newsboys. Yeah. DC Talk. Yeah, my high school roommate, my college roommate was in a band called Switchfoot.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, Yeah, so Andrew Shirley was the lead guitarist for Switchfoot, so we would go see him.
Pastor John Martinez:We played shows with them sometimes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, super random. So those music's different,
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:but Yeah, really different. But you know, those guys were great guys, and I think Switchfoot, as far as I know, is a band that's done really, really well. But everybody struggles. Everybody struggles with fame. Everybody struggles with money.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Everybody struggles with lust, especially in those areas where you have women throwing themselves at you, men throwing themselves at you, people are throwing you money, people are treating, human beings were not made to be worshiped.
Pastor John Martinez:Yeah, absolutely not.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We were made to worship God, and so when you reverse that, your whole life really unravels and falls apart. So I would just say, pray about it, man, and there are some things, Gio, that you can listen to that would make me stumble. There are some things that I can listen to that would make you stumble. And so what I would say is, one of my favorite bands from the '80s is Depeche Mode. It just depresses me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It feels dark. Now, I identified with it as a kid, but as an adult, a lot of their music, not all of it, but a lot of it is just like, I feel bad after I'm done listening to it. And so I want to feel upbeat, I want to feel excited, I want to feel excited to be alive, this is the day the Lord has made, and so I want to listen to that kind of stuff. And so I would just encourage you, listen to stuff that's upbeat, you know, uplifting, encouraging, and is not detracting from your faith. Certainly is not making fun of or putting down your faith.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So I don't know if you have any thoughts.
Pastor John Martinez:I'll just add a little to it. I personally struggled with this for a long time, especially after, like, just rededicating my life to the Lord in 2011 and just trying to figure out what that looked like for me. A lot of what you said, exactly that. If it's if it's if it's causing you to drift from the Lord, don't listen to it. It's not worth it.
Pastor John Martinez:It's not worth taking that in. If it's something that you wouldn't listen to lyrically, it's not okay. Yeah. For sure. I would say sometimes for me as like a high feeler, sometimes I do wanna listen to something that's sad.
Pastor John Martinez:Yeah. Something I think it's it what it does is it helps me feel like what I'm feeling Mhmm. A little bit more. Now now if I I listen to sad music all day long every day, you're naturally gonna get influenced by that, and it's gonna make you just a bummer. Yeah.
Pastor John Martinez:But I do tend to listen to some music dependent on my mood. Now if I'm in a bad mood and I'm not feeling good or I'm depressed or something, of course, I'm not gonna I shouldn't listen to the things that are gonna take me further down the route. And I would just say discernment. Like, just I feel like fundamentals as a believer, like, discernment. Like, if you know that this is not good for you Right.
Pastor John Martinez:Don't do it. Like, even if it's something that you love for the longest time, like, it's not you don't feel like it's bringing you closer to the Lord, then just it's not worth it. Mhmm. I think it's just not worth it. And like you said, that's so important.
Pastor John Martinez:If something that might not affect me might affect somebody else. But most of the time, we can agree on, like, the the really provocative, horrible things Yeah. Are just not good, period.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And sometimes music can take us back in a time machine to some place we were. Yeah. And so it can trigger emotions, feelings, desires. So you gotta be really, really careful with that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's why people like music. You know, I think whatever music you were into from 15 to 19, you loved for your whole life, it's like generationally, people kind of attach to that. And so if it's good memories, that's great, listen to it. But if it's bad memories, if it's lustful memories, those might be things that you need to lay down because it just takes you back to a place that you don't wanna go, and God may have forgiven that sin, but if it causes you to stumble with it again, I would just say, don't do it, so.
Pastor John Martinez:Yeah. All right, this is from Jonathan on Instagram. That's a nice name, because that's my name. In a recent sermon, you mentioned having great faith. How do you know you have great faith, and how can you get great faith?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So I think in that sermon, it was the Greek woman that Jesus told was the wrong race and then called her a dog, and she hung in there. By the way, I got a comment on my Instagram. Somebody said, wait, God's a racist? And I said, no, that's not what I was saying.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I said, this statement feels racist. Yeah. What God was doing was he's being real, and so if you lived in Greek culture at that time, they lived like dogs. The Jews got a lot of things wrong, but they got sexual attitudes and behaviors right, so they got that right. The Greeks loved to party in groups, and so Jesus was saying, Look, man, you guys are behaving like animals, and you gotta change.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so the woman said, Yes, but even the dogs get to eat scraps from the table. And he said, Dear woman, you have great faith. And so I think what that means there is Jesus is surprised because really, he's almost trying to push her away, and no matter what he does, she will not be denied because she knows who he is. So she pushes through, and I think that's what great faith is, is even when I'm not getting the answer I want, when God's not doing what I want, I continue to press in because I know that he's good. I was doing counseling today with a young lady from our church, and I met with her about four years ago, and so it was kind of weird, you know, I think it was 18 years old to 22, was kind of giving me a summary of her life, and she ended with, And I don't know why God is allowing me to struggle.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I was like, God didn't make any of these decisions the last four years, these And were your so again, even that statement, I don't know why God is allowing me to struggle, what it's saying, it's questioning God's goodness. And in this story, I wouldn't say Jesus, I mean, ultimately Jesus is being good, but if I'm offensive to you, and I'm like, I don't care about you, John. I don't care about people from Moreno Valley. I came to save Newport Beach. That's my ministry.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And oh, by the way, you're a dog. Oh, And thank you push through that, and you're like, But I know your heart. Right? I know that, you know. So she is unwilling to accept that Jesus is anything but wonderful despite what he's saying, and so our culture, right, we immediately judge people based upon what we think they're saying.
Pastor John Martinez:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And then oftentimes we miss out on what God is wanting to do, and so I think all of us, in order to be moved by God, have to be willing to be offended by God, and that's where I think most people stop. As soon as I feel offended, I'm out. And even with issues politically in our church, people aren't really interested in what Jesus said. They're framing it in partisan language, and what they want to know is, is Matt a Democrat or Republican? They're not really interested in, what is Jesus saying And right so if they're a Republican, and they feel that I sound Democratic, they're offended.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:If they're a Democrat and I sound Republican, they feel offended. And so we have to remember that Jesus is political, but he's not partisan. So he stands on political issues, but he's not going, The Pharisees are right, and he's not going, The Sadducees are right. He's like, You're both wrong.
Pastor John Martinez:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But sometimes, right, he agreed with them on specific issues, and so we have to be careful that we want to be centered on Jesus and not be so easily offended. And so great faith is saying, Okay, I'm going to come to church, and as a Republican, I might get ruffled a little bit.
Pastor John Martinez:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because Republicans are not always right.
Pastor John Martinez:Yeah, absolutely.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I could be a Democrat and come to church and have my feathers ruffled. I could be a Democrat that is deeply pro choice, or yeah, pro choice, and you hear me talk about the value of human life, and you could say, Well, that's offensive. Well, maybe that's what you needed. Maybe God had to offend you to get you to care about the unborn. Know I mean?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's an issue where we're going to stand, and we're going to say, Look, man, you know, my mom prayed about, or I should say prayed about, but thought about potentially aborting me. Remember when she shared that with me, and that was painful. I'm glad she made the choice of life, but we have to be willing to be offended at church, because if we're not willing to be offended by the Bible or by God, we will never hear from God in the Bible. And so great faith is pushing back against what I think God's saying. It's the opposite of Peter when Jesus says, I'm going to go to Jerusalem and be crucified, and Peter says, No, Lord.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That will never happen. And Jesus replies, Get behind me, Satan.
Pastor John Martinez:Yeah, that was
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So Peter thought he was doing the right moral thing to save the life of Christ, but if he saves the life of Christ, we're all damned to hell. So we have to be careful. And I would say, I think you would agree, it's offensive. Like if we're following Jesus for three years, and he's like, Guys, we're going to Jerusalem, I'm going to be killed. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That would be deeply offensive to us, but that may have been what had to happen so that we could all be set free. And so, you know, we live in a culture right now, and I'm not saying that I should be offensive, and certainly I have been, I've been offensive preaching, and I've apologized for it publicly. I'm not supposed to be offensive, but Jesus and the gospel gets to be offensive, and sometimes we conflate the two.
Pastor John Martinez:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And we gotta be careful. Am I being personally offended, or is the Holy Spirit convicting me? Those two things can feel the same. And so I can feel offended, no, no, no, that was the Holy Spirit. The Spirit of God was convicting you, and you ran out.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I think the woman, right, when he says, I came for the Jews only, she could have been offended. Yeah. But is that true? Yes. At that point in time, Jesus has come just for the lost sheep of Israel.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Now we know in Matthew 28 that he's come for everyone. Yeah. But he has to be crucified in order for that to happen. So she has to push through the offense, and then, right, he says, I will not take from the children and give to the dogs. It's the most offensive thing Jesus ever says.
Pastor John Martinez:Twilight, yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But she's not offended. She stays, and she trusts him, and it's because faith is believing loyalty. That's what faith is. She believes in him, and she's loyal to him no matter what. And what happens?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:She gets what she asks for, and he says, You have great faith. And so great faith, Jonathan, is me pushing through my fear, pushing through my insecurities, pushing through my offense, and trusting that Jesus is good, and he is going to do what's best for
Pastor John Martinez:me. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because even a master allows the scraps to fall from the table and feed the dogs. She's like, Call me a dog. I mean, I love the NLT. That's true. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:She's like, That's true. I'm a dog. So that's great faith. And I think as a leader, I've been at my worst when I've been offended by somebody critiquing me, by somebody challenging me, by somebody not liking me, rather than saying, I gotta trust God in this, because even when somebody's mad at me, there's something for me to learn.
Pastor John Martinez:Oh, absolutely.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:There's a way for So me to I think great faith is pushing past what I feel and what I see, and trusting God, and just knowing that in the end, what's gonna happen? Even the dogs will be felt, will be fed by the scraps that fall from the table, and so she is just willing to push through such hardship and such offense, and I think most of us, man, the second we get offended, we're out of church. Sometimes we get offended in relationships, we're out. We get offended with friendships, we're out, and that's the moment where we gotta sit, we gotta hang in there, because I've offended my wife. She's offended me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We never would have had thirty years of marriage had we given up.
Pastor John Martinez:Yeah, that's good.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I've had believing loyalty towards her. I believe she's my wife, and I trust at the end of the day, she's going to do the right thing. It may not be in the moment, and she needs to believe the same thing. At the end of the day, I'm going to do what's best for our marriage and what's best for her because I love God, and God's commanded me to do that. So I think that's what great faith is in this context.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I think in other contexts, it can mean other things, but you could translate it surprising faith. And we see this multiple times in the Gospels, where people who are not Jewish have the greatest faith.
Pastor John Martinez:That's great.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So people outside the church, you know, are like, man, shouldn't we be trusting Jesus? Shouldn't we be praying? And it's like, oh, yeah, yeah, that's what we should be doing. That's what I think.
Pastor John Martinez:What do think? The stories. Yeah. The stories that we hear in the Bible where people, through trusting God Yeah. Even through the craziest experiences, those are the things we hear and we're, like, motivated by.
Pastor John Martinez:Right? The spirit speaks to us through those moments. And I I there's a reason why those stories are in the Bible, that Jesus uses those illustrations and different things like that, because we need that in order to keep moving, I think. Yeah. And so, yeah, this is beautiful.
Pastor John Martinez:I can't really add much to that because that was
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:well said.
Pastor John Martinez:Chelsea from Ohio says, how do you discern between genuine worship or performance and performance?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So Chelsea, I think this is a tough issue, and I think, especially like the megachurch gets critiqued for this a lot, because when we put people on stage, we want them to be good at what they do. Yeah. And I would say gifted at what they do. So the Lord has gifted certain people with gifts that they are to use to serve the Lord.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So even when I'm preaching, am I performing? Yes. There would have been a time where I would have said no, but I am trying to do the best I can. I've prepped, I've prayed, I've planned, and it's a performance. Now, here's what I mean.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's not fake. Yeah. I'm trying to be authentically who I am, but I'm trying to do the best I can for God. And so that's what I believe ultimately sacrificial worship is, it's taking our best and giving it to the Lord. And so that's through our tithes and our offerings.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I mean, I would just ask, you know, when you give at the end of service or however you give, is it your best? When you sing, is it your best? When you pray, is it your best? You know, like, remember who you're talking to. Like, God has given us His best through His Son, Jesus Christ, who died for us on the cross.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So what I would just say is I think worship can be a performance oriented, particularly if you're on stage. Like if you're in the audience and it's dark, I don't care where your hands are. Like if you're on stage, I care where your hands are. You don't put them in your pocket. Don't rearrange things.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Don't scratch things. Don't itch things. That's not the place to do that because you're on stage. And so part of being authentic is accepting where you are. So if you're like, I'm just up there, it's just me and God, well, no, you're leading God's people in worship.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so that part of it's not just the performance, it's not just you and God. You're leading us in a performance of worship where we're trying to sing the same song, we're trying to be in the same key, we're trying to be in the same moment. Like we're trying not to go outside the bounds of the spirit, right, like a clanging symbol or a gong. And, you know, so there's an element of that, like, where we're moving together, and I think performance automatically means fake in our culture, or it means, you know, inauthentic. And what I would say is, when you're preaching, I expect you to perform.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What do I mean by that? You need to have planned, prepared, and be ready to do your best.
Pastor John Martinez:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I don't mean don't be John. Yeah. I don't mean sound like me, or sound like someone else, but I do expect that you've planned, prepared, and you're ready to perform. You're ready to go. And that's a hard thing for a lot of people to understand.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. But, you know, I mean, I can have anxiety about my finances during the week. Okay, I could have lost money in the stock market. I still have to perform on Sundays. Because God's people are gathering together, and it doesn't mean that I, I mean, I just don't dump that on people.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I talk with that issue with people that I'm close with, or that I trust, or my financial advisors, but I still have to be ready to perform, ready to show up. And I think that the verse that's best for this, can you guys put this in the notes, whatever you do, do as unto the Lord. And so it's this idea, right? So even if I'm at work, even if I'm a nurse, or I'm a doctor, or I'm a cop, I mean, we've all been to a place of work where they're not performing. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like, you need to perform your duties, and what that means as a Christian is we do our very best. Show up on time, take notes. When the boss asks you to do something, do it, and if you blow it, own it. But when it comes to genuine worship, for us to worship together, it has to be a performance. Otherwise, we're all over the place.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We have to know who's leading. It has to be organized. And then like even for you, like with your music, right, everybody has to know what's gonna happen and where you're going for you to riff and do something creative, right?
Pastor John Martinez:Yes, exactly.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so you have to get really, really good at performing in order to kind of let it flow. I would say the same thing is true in the church. It actually takes more practice, more rehearsal, more excellence, more giftedness, so we can let the spirit move and follow the spirit where he leads us, but we can't just show up. Nobody's practiced, nobody has a guitar. I mean, that's what the Quakers used to do.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Did you know that? The Quakers Just show up. They would just show up and pray for hours until they felt like the Holy Spirit. And so imagine you're a family, and you showed up for church at 09:00. You know, like, I need to know church starts at 09:00.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yep. And so what I would tell my Quaker brothers is, then you need to be there at 5AM and be ready for Holy Spirit at 09:00 when I got my toddlers here in One the puked, another pooped. Right? You know, Tammy and I are stressed out. But what they meant to do, they were kind of anti performance, but what it what it created was chaos.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And then guess what happened? People stopped coming because they want us to be ready. And so what I would say is, Chelsea, I have to do all my prep work on the front end so that I'm ready to perform when it's my time, when it's my call. And, you know, I wish that Christians were more like athletes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like, if you're the backup quarterback, you don't know if the quarterback goes down and they're gonna call you. You have to be ready to perform in that moment, and that's the way that we've gotta be as Christians, but we can't knock I mean, we struggle with this at Sandals, especially the Hunter Park campus, right? Too much smoke, too many lights. I'm always like, can we chill? This isn't Vegas.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Know, someone made a joke the other day, I was walking up and the smoke machine was off, they're like, oh, no Holy Spirit today, and we're all laughing, but it's like, no, that's not what it's about. But we do use things like that, but we don't need them. Yeah, sure. You know, and I, like, the smoke machine was out, I was like, can't have service. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Whatever, let's go forward with what we have. I mean, we've had screens at Hunter Park that haven't worked now for a couple months, where hopefully the new screen is getting ready, but I think we gotta be careful not to overly critique. We had this young guy in our church early on at Sandals, and I would ask him to play music underneath me as I prayed, Mhmm. And he refused. He's like, that's fake.
Pastor John Martinez:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And we had to fire that gentleman. Yeah. You know, I was I was like, dude, I mean, what what did what did king Saul need to calm his demons? It was music. David So played the God speaks through music, back to our last question about secular music, that can lead us to a place of sin.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Christian music can lead us to a place of repentance, a place of connection, a place of conviction, and it's not hypocritical performative for me to ask a young man, Hey, could you play your guitar while I'm praying? And he literally refused. And ultimately, that dude's faith unraveled, and he's not in the church anymore because he thought that was contrived. I think that's just wisdom. Well, I think about I
Pastor John Martinez:I love movie scores.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay. Yeah. So I just Me too.
Pastor John Martinez:Yeah. So like I can listen to the a soundtrack of a movie, Interstellar, something like that, And sometimes I'll just listen to you in my car, and it's like almost like, yeah, I'm in my
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:own I do exactly the same thing. I think it's an ADHD thing. It is. And My wife makes fun
Pastor John Martinez:of It is so it's like you want life to feel Yes. More and more. So I think about that, and it's like the same thing. When you when you listen to a little bit of worship pads underneath Mhmm. The final part of the message
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Pastor John Martinez:It music does something to a person. It evokes some things from them. And, you know, I I experience something that's called a frisson. I think it's frisson, frisson, and it's basically just getting the chills when you listen to music. And it it I don't know what the exact percentage is, but I think it's more than 50% of people don't even actually experience that.
Pastor John Martinez:Can't experience that whole experience of free song. And so I experience that all the time. And so I personally, when I hear music coming up behind something that I already know to be powerful, it just makes it that much more powerful. And so I think, like, you know, with worship, is that performative? It's just helping us evoke something that's there already.
Pastor John Martinez:It's kinda it's setting us up to experience something. And why would the spirit not want us to use the tools that we have to create that experience for people and to experience it more? So I think like movie scores too, it's like
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Well, and I would just say this. You know, Jesus returns with the sound of a trumpet. Trumpet. Yeah. Does he really need it to blow?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know what I'm saying? Does. Isn't that right? I mean, I'm pretty sure when the heaven shakes and the earth shakes, and literally, what is it, the Mount Of Olives splits in two as he walks into the East Side of Jerusalem, I don't think we need a band, but he has one.
Pastor John Martinez:But he's got
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:it. Because it evokes royalty, it evokes presence, and so I think that that's important. Just like you said, watch a movie without the score. Yes. Same movie, same thing.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It will not evoke the same emotions. God has made us musical people. So my grandson is 10 old, and we're playing music, and I'm introducing him to '80s music. I'm like, this is Debbie Deb. This is Vanilla Ice.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so he's doing this thing, but music is making him do things he's not even aware of. He's 10 old, but he knows you should do this when you feel music. And I'm like, it's so great to watch him enjoy that. And I think some people, if you come out of a Church of Christ background, and just so you guys know where that comes from is, there's no mention of instruments in the New Testament. And okay, I feel you, but read the book of Psalms.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's instruments everywhere. And so the assumption was, right, that they would have instruments because that was never an issue of contention with Jesus, ever. It was something that they would do. And I'm not saying that music sounds like the way we would think it, but you know, there are verses that say with harp, with lyre, you know, sing the praises of the Lord. I mean, those are biblical commands to play instruments to sing about God.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So the church Christ says, yeah, but they're not in the New Testament. I would just say they don't have to be because they're already written. Know, God doesn't need to say the same thing twice. So I would just say, you know, I think the people who are leading it need to be aware of performance. I think those of us who are being led by it need to avoid that at all costs.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I think I shared this story a couple weeks ago. Did I share the story about me singing to West? I already shared that? So haven't listened to episode yet, but I am very subconscious. I'm very conscious of how I sound when I sing.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I don't think it sounds good, but I sing to West when I put him to sleep, and he just stares at me, and what's amazing is I don't care how I sound because it's not about how I sound, it's about him. Yeah, And I wish that I could fully do that in worship, but I tend to be aware, you know, where are my hands? Know? What am I doing? And so I actually had this conversation with a young man in our church, and it's weird, I was talking to him, but I was probably talking to myself.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I said, My prayer for you is that you could disconnect from how people perceive you, and you could just be who God called you to be. Because he's so hyper aware and sensitive of what people are thinking and perceiving, he actually is acting differently rather than just being who God's created him to be. And so for those of us who are being led in worship, it cannot be a performance. Those who are on stage, it has to be some kind of performance or it's a disaster. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:There has to be some organization, there has to be practice. And just so you guys know, every campus on Thursday nights, they are practicing, they are rehearsing. Yep. You know, these are people that, many of them that have worked all day, they're coming on a Thursday night, you know, they're practicing on Thursday nights, and then they're leading, you know, how many services do guys have? Three.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Three. So three services on Sunday. They're there, what time they get there? Six a. M, seven a.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:M?
Pastor John Martinez:About 06:30.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And they're going home at what time?
Pastor John Martinez:Ugh, man, 01:30.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, it's a long day for those of us who are showing up and can barely get in the parking lot. Yeah. The people that are leading us in worship, man, they've put a lot of their time and a lot of their effort into the performance so that their expertise and gifting can help lift us out of ourselves, away from ourselves, and transport us. And that's what a soundtrack in a movie does, is go watch Braveheart without the soundtrack. You will not have the same experience.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The soundtrack is meant to take you into his world, into that time for you to feel those feelings with him, and that's what worship is on Sundays, so that we can disconnect from our world temporarily, and really connect with God, and what is God saying? What is God calling me to do? And so Chelsea, great question. Yeah. Obviously, it can be too much.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I've seen this one megachurch where the pastor comes out on this glowing LED wall stage, and it lowers. I'm like, okay, that's probably a bit much. In California, we don't have those kind of budget issues. We don't have LED moving walls. But in other states, I don't want to judge other churches, but I would just say sometimes I'm like, okay, that was too much.
Pastor John Martinez:A little bit.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And we've gotten there before. When we first got the laser lights, I was like, okay, guys, this is not Star Trek or Star Wars.
Pastor John Martinez:Trying something, but Let's back it off a little bit.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I think there's a tension there to be managed. It's not even more.
Pastor John Martinez:Yeah. I agree. Alright. It's a great question.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I know.
Pastor John Martinez:Well, thank you for listening to this podcast, pastor Matt. That's amazing conversation. Awesome answers to the question. But if you like this podcast, let us know by following, subscribing, leaving a comment, or showing your support by giving. You can show your support by going to sandalschurch.com/support, and see you next time.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Love you guys. Grace and peace.
Celeste Contreras:Thank you for listening. We hope this conversation helped you grow in your faith. If you've enjoyed today's episode, make sure to follow us wherever you listen to podcasts and subscribe on YouTube so you don't miss what's next. You can also stay connected by following us on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok for behind the scenes clips, highlights, and more ways to engage with the community. We'll see you next time right here on the podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown.