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Bristol Unpacked with Neil Maggs brings you fascinating and challenging conversations from characters of all stripes on big topics facing the city and beyond.
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What is Islamophobia? How much do people in the UK really know about the Islamic faith beyond often inflammatory headlines? Have well-meaning people on the left, sometimes unwittingly, stoke the fire through a reluctance to encourage fair questioning and challenge, and how at the risk of sounding like a bit of a hippie, can we all get on better?
Whatever our beliefs. This week we'll be getting into this and much more answering those questions with Rizwan Ahmed, the chair of the Bristol Muslim Cultural Society, and he's been working for years in the city to demystify his faith. Sit back and enjoy.
Hi Rizwan.
Rizwan: Hi, afternoon.
Neil: How are you?
Rizwan: Not too bad. Thanks. How are you?
Neil: I'm good. Thank you. We saw each other quite recently, didn't we? At an event a couple of weeks ago
Rizwan: That SARI event…
Neil: It was, yeah. And that you popped into my mind and, and I sort of thought, I was looking back through some of the episodes, 'cause we've known each other quite a long time, looking back through some of the episodes and I was like, why have we never had you on which I thought was a bit odd.
Rizwan: I remember we talked about it once, many, many years ago, but I think it probably slipped under the radar.
Neil: well, apologies for that. And, and good to have you on. You have various kind of hats, but you are here in your capacity as chair of Bristol Muslim Cultural Society, or CEO. What, what's your official title?
Rizwan: Currently chair and also volunteer for Bristol Muslim Cultural Society.
Neil: Are you the founder of that?
Rizwan: Oh, no, no, no, no. If you want the history of it very quickly. It is actually founded by the previous generation way back in 1986. So they sort of ran it until about the early two thousands. Then my generation got involved and it all went into a whole new direction there, and I'm sure now it's coming to that time where another generation will get involved. It's been run since 1986. One of the oldest Muslim organizations within Bristol.
Neil: okay. That's interesting. And when you say your generation, people listening may not know how old you are and what generation you are, so how old are you?
Rizwan: I was hoping not to give that away, but I'll say is, is basically we, we got involved around late twenties.
Neil: So you're telling me how old you used to be, but you're not telling me how old you are now.
Rizwan: that's classified. I'm not telling you. Yeah.
Neil: I reckon you are mid forties, early forties.
Rizwan: That, that'll do. That's that's good enough.
Neil: Okay. That means you're 50 then! So yeah, as we discussed before, before we pressed record, you have various identities, but you are a Muslim, you are a British, Pakistani. You grew up in Bristol, correct?
Rizwan: Uh, yeah. Yeah. Whole life being in Bristol born, spent four years in London while I studied at King's College. But my whole life, I've been in Bristol.
Neil: And around the kind of Eastville, Easton area, correct?
Rizwan: Up until two years ago, I spent my whole life in Easton.
Neil: So you went to school there as well.
Rizwan: Yeah. I went primary school there. Secondary school, all of it. All in Easton.
Neil: So your heritage, I say British, Pakistani, lots of people don't always realise which part of countries where, when people say, like, for example, my, my partner's Brazilian her mum is from Sao Paulo state and there's a certain generation that all came from the same place in the kind of eighties and there's quite a lot of them in Bristol… which part of Pakistan? There's sort of two areas, isn't that, that most of the people of Pakistan heritage in Bristol come from.
Rizwan: I'm from the Punjab. I think you get a lot of people who come from the Mirpur part as well…
Neil: Which is Azad Kashmir. Is that right?
Rizwan: Yeah.
Neil: So that's the two sort of distinct areas. When people migrate to a country or to to a city, people sort of build alliances. Are they, are they quite closely connected, the Pakistani Punjabi community and the Mirpur community in Bristol?
Rizwan: I, I think what tends to happen will, you know, you've got the older generation and they probably have that identity more strongly, you know, within them. And then I suppose with my generation, younger generation, it doesn't quite fade away, but your, where you're living, that identity takes over more.
So I would say, you know, my generation, we're probably more British, but we still have the links, as you know, as Pakistanis. We still have that, you know, we still have, you know, links back home, et cetera. You don't quite let go of it, but it's probably means something different to my generation than previous generation and the generation after me as well.
Neil: Yeah. And your own personal kind of journey and how you kind of see yourself. would you say that you, were, somebody that was quite deeply religious growing up, uh, as a team? Was it something that became stronger for you with age as an adult?
Rizwan: I mean, funnily enough, when I was younger my faith was the furthest thing from my mind. I would say my, I, if I look at my identity as a whole, it's probably, you know, I'm actually born in Pakistan, But I came here when I was six, six months old.
And I suppose, you know, my identity, if I look at it's been shaped by where I went in school, you know, obviously family values, of course, you know, the Muslim family, those values imprinted on me. And then the school I went to the Christian values that imprinted on me as well. And, and as I was growing up and well into my teams you know, I was heavily into Marvel and DC Comics as well. So the whole superhero world imprinted itself on me as well. In terms my moral values.
Neil: Which did you prefer? Cause it's a bit of a, it's like a Blur/Oasis thing, isn't it? D you know, some of my kids are two, one of them's Marvel and the other one's DC and they argue about it…
Rizwan: I was into both, but predominantly Marvel comics were a lot better, I have to say.
Neil: And for those that dunno, that's like Spider-Man sort of Hulk and stuff. DC is Batman and that isn't it.
Rizwan: And the films are better as well. At the moment, anyway, the Marvel films a lot better than the DC comics. That's probably not gonna go too well. But yeah, so Marvel films a lot, but I say, yeah, so all that imprinted on me. And then I suppose it is only later on in, in life that rediscovered the faith.
And I suppose what Islam did was then filter it all down and lead me to where I'm now. So it probably just focused my morality and things like that. But yeah, I'm, in general, I would say I'm a mishmash of all those things. And even, even if I look at my Pakistani heritage, I'm probably more British culturally than I'm Pakistani, I would say, even though I still have strong links back home as well.
Neil: Yeah. And there's always that, as you say, with with people that are first generation, second generation or third generation migrants, there's always that kind of dual identity anyway isn't there of, of sort of Britishness and, you know, your country of origin there's always that sort of play between both.
Rizwan: Yeah. And I find when, whenever I go back home to visit, the British side, me, you know, it is there and it, and you know, I wouldn't say clash, but you can see there's that, hold on. You're, you are, you are like a foreigner. You're why behaving this way? Sometimes it comes out over there. Cos in my habits are culturally, I'm pretty sure the habits I picked up here, I'm a classic example. Queuing. So when I go to pilgrimage, for example to Mecca, you can spot British pilgrims a mile off cos we're the only silly people who queue up for everything. No one else queues. In fact, once, yeah, I remember it, was it 2015 or something…
I went to a shop to buy this is in Saudi I went to a shop to buy a bottle of water. Yeah. There's an Arab guy in front of me and then there's some Malaysian guy trying to push in. Obviously I didn't speak his language yeah but I got so incensed by the fact that he tried to jump the queue. I sort of pointed at the Arab guy, gesticulated he's number one. Then I pointed to myself saying, gesticulated I'm number two yeah And pointed to him, saying you're number three, and then he laughed and calmed down. But that's how strong I felt about the queuing thing.
Neil: You mentioned Mecca earlier, you know, that's one of the, you know, real kind of strong tenets of, of Islam. I wondered if we could do, 'cause you spend an awful lot of your time talking about the faith to people outside of the faith, don't you? You go into universities, you go into colleges, you go into schools talking to people about Islam and you know, trying to sort of explain a bit about the faith and, you know, debunk some of the stereotypes and things like that.
So I wonder if we could just pull back a bit and almost do like a sort of simple RE class for people that don't really know about Islam and some sort of quick fire questions around the faith. Yeah. Is that okay?
Rizwan: Okey dokey. Fire away then.
Neil: So simply Muhammad, who, who, who was Muhammad and what does he mean to Muslims? Peace be upon him.
Rizwan: So to put him, to put him into context with your pardon. So the basic. Things that you have to believe in as a Muslim. There's a belief in one God who we refer to as Allah in Arabic, same God is used in Christian, but we just call him Allah. And then there's a belief in the spiritual world, like the world of angels.
There's also a belief in different prophets and messengers that God sent throughout history. So as Muslims, you know, believe in prophet Adam, Noah, word, David, Jesus, you know, et cetera, et cetera, including the prophet ham. Yeah. And then we also believe in, you know, the different books that God real, like the Bible, the Torah, the Koran and there's a very strong belief in the afterlife, so Muslims believe you know, that, you know, one day when we die, we get resurrection on the day of judgment. And we get asked, you know, how we lived our lives? Did we do good, bad, et cetera, do we believe? And then there, there is a belief in, you know, a heaven and a hell as well – I’ve grossly oversimplified things there.
But with regards to the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, We believe he's the last in line of prophets that God has brought throughout history in the Abrahamic tradition.
Neil: But what, I guess, my only question with that would be sort of, well, if you believe in and you acknowledge sort of, you know, Jesus being well and you listed others a, a line of prophets and Muhammad is the last prophet why is there a last prophet?
Rizwan: We're talking about 1400 years ago, roughly. Without, again, to really tease theological discussion. I always say to put it very simply: 'cause God said he's the last one and he goes, this is your last messenger. I'm not sending anyone after this. And if you, if you look at, if you look at the, you know Abrahamic, no one else has come after that claiming to be a prophet in that tradition.
And even with the Prophet Muhammed, peace be upon him, what you could say is that his message, the Quran that he left behind is a confirmation, affirmation, and completion of everything that came before it. Yeah. So when you read the Koran, you'll say, oh, actually you recognise bits. And now look, there's stories about Jesus and there's stories about Moses. Oh look, Abraham, no, you'll recognise bits from previous revelations, but, it's just simply, you know, God saves the last one and that's it.
Neil: just to reiterate then it's kind of like the same, it's the same God as Christians and Jews would worship. And in fact, the interesting thing is, 'cause I watched some of these little, um, debates on in Speaker's Corner, and there's a, there's a couple of, um, Muslim guys who were kind of debating with Christians and stuff. And I also think it's quite interesting… the concept of the Holy Trinity and in theory, the inconsistency when you're asked, well, who is Jesus? And the Christians say, well, he's God, come down to Earth.
And I bet it's like, but you worshiping Jesus or you worshiping God. And it's, they start to sort of tie them up a little bit. And that's, that is one of the key fundamental differences, isn't it? And the second fundamental difference being that. In terms of an image of God, there are no images of, of God are there in, in mosques…
Rizwan: yeah, so God is seen as the unseen creator and I was say in Islam you have a personal, it, it, it sounds very strictly monotheistic. So you have a personal, very personal one-to-one relationship with God. So when you, when you're praying. You're not praying through an intermediate, you don't pray through Jesus or Muhammad or Moses, anyone like this.
You God. That's it. And yeah, and I suppose the way I, 'cause I always like to keep things simple, you know? And the way I like to get people to think about things is it's almost like, you know, imagine when you had Windows xp. And then Windows 8 came out and then Windows 10, et cetera. You're going along with the upgrade cycle et cetera. But I, I, I just like to keep things very simple and to be honest, a lot of debate. I don't get involved in those, I don't have the temperament to get involved with those.
Neil: Sure. And most Muslims pray five times a day.
Rizwan: some Muslim pray, some don't. But yeah, most Muslims will try their best to pray five times a day. We pray in the morning before, just before sunrise, after midday, late afternoon, sunset and nighttime. Lot of people think, oh my God, it's a lot how you do that, but it's only, you know, 25, 30 minutes, that's what happens. It’s an episode of EastEnders basically, it's not that much when you break it down. It's not that much, as to what you get out of it, when you're praying, I know from the outside it looks like aerobic when you see Muslims going up and down here, but when you're praying, you're praying with your, your body, your heart, your mind, everything become part of the worship when you focus on God and that's it.
And, and it puts you in a state of mindfulness. And I, I think the best example I can give is, years ago I used work in PC World in early two thousands in the customer care part, which is a very stressful job you can imagine. But while I was at work of, you know, of course I would pray, like during my lunch break and my tea break, I never ever forget one day I came back from prayer and my colleague Rob goes to me, Riz, you know what, if you don't mind me saying, I've noticed when you come back from prayer, you come back a lot more chill are relaxed compared to the guys that went, who went off to have a cigarette during their break. So even he noticed the calming effect that was having
Neil: That's interesting!
Rizwan: Yeah. And I, I think that's the only thing that got me to that job actually just praying while I was at work.
Neil: Different Islamic Denominations. This is, this is something that some people may or may not know that in terms of Sunni, Shia, Wahhabism, which is, which is kind of the sort of Saudi influence, which we get into a little bit later. But, you know, I guess if you've see it from a sort of Christian perspective, you have, you know, Catholicism, church of England, Lutherism, evangelists, different denominations.
How, how does it, how does it kind of work? What, what's the fundamental, I mean, are there as many different denominations? What are the subtle differences, you know, top line stuff?
Rizwan: No. Okay. So again, grossly oversimplifying things. There's, there's only two denominations in Islam. So you've got Sunni Muslims and Shia Muslim. Sunni Muslim. Probably make up about 85 to 90% of the world Muslims globally. The remainder – 10 15% that's Shia Muslims. Then underneath that, then you can get different schools of thought, you know, different movements, et cetera, et cetera. But from a denominational point of view, there's only two Sunni and Shia, and that's it.
Neil: A and there's obviously been sort of politically in various countries, you know, tension and, and war between Sunni and Shia. Has that always been the case?
Rizwan: No, from, from, from what I remember, I think this is more of a modern phenomena. In the past, there's always been a bit of friction between Sunnis and Shias. But it's never, ever led to the violence that we've seen in modern history. And I think personally, I, you know, I believe. Just like with terrorism, there's lot of, political motivations, et cetera, et cetera, behind the scenes.
That's encouraging this sort of violent, but this is, uh, in terms of modern history, I would say the last, last a hundred, 150 years, this is a modern phenomenon in the past. It's never been at this level that is at the moment.
Neil: In terms of that split, the percentage split, you said the the minority, which would be Shia, they would be, you know, countries like they Iran, yeah.
Rizwan: Yeah, my geography is also, but yeah… Iran and I think, yeah, there's, I think there's a cohort in Pakistan as well, but main cohort, yeah, around that region.
Neil: Some of the more I guess, and we've spoken about this ourselves directly in the past, some of the contentious elements or the stuff that sort of picked up and used for people for, you know, for political ends to want to criticise Islam is often Sharia law and, you know, Muslims wanting to bring Sharia law here. Just kind of just enlighten me. What is Sharia law and, and why is that something that's always sort of pushed and, and nudged as, as something that's potentially sort of negative to British culture?
Rizwan: So Muslims actually use the term Sharia. So Sharia law is actually more of a western term that everyone, clearly Muslims have gotten onto.
But just to, again, grossly oversimplifying things. Sharia is simply the rules that determine how a society is governed and run. And it just so happens that, you know, in, in Islamic theology, those rules are derived from the Quran, the Holy Book. But those rules are there to ensure that the people living in that society be they Muslim or non-Muslim, and they have the basic right to unit food, shelter, clothing, education, to uphold their own, their dignity, basically create a stable just society for everyone. And I suppose it governed things at a macro level and a micro level as well.
But yeah that in a nutshell, that fall is, I think what people get, you know, excited about is probably the, you know, penal system that's probably like 0.1% of the overall body of, you know, Sharia. Yeah. But in a nutshell…
Neil: You say penal system, you mean the capital punishment?
Rizwan: Yeah. As you know, many countries have capital punishment system, and Islam’s no different, but it’s and tiny part of the law.
Neil: A and often I think in, in the work you do I think you're one of the first Muslims to speak in the, chapel, weren't you in, Bristol? So you have relationships with other faith groups in the city and you talk to them and stuff like that. And I, and, and some of the tension points often between any faith are often arranged interpretation of, of doctrine. Or, or, or people arguing over what certain texts say and stuff like that.
How literal again, big question, but how literal do Muslims take the Koran in terms of what's said or how much of the, how much is that sometimes seen is its. Cultural context or historical cultural context of the time. 'cause that's often a contentious point in Christianity, isn't it? People, different literal interpretations of, how do you take something that was written 2000 years ago in that case compared to now?
Or it's a metaphor for something. So is there a, presumably like a debate around that within Islam as well? Around how literal you take the Koran?
Rizwan: okay. So, so for Muslims, Koran is seen as the word of God. And there's no messing about with that. Yeah. But it's seen as you guide into life why you're here, what happens after you die, you know, be good to your parents, look after poor, needy, et cetera. It's basically, you know, a guide to life.
But it's still, you're deriving your rulings from that and they're saying have, in terms of how you live your life. But what happens then is if you look at, for example, in early Islam growing within the Arabian Peninsula. Different problems cropped up and we need solutions from them now. So for example, back then, what would happen is, let's say you had a scholar in Iraq, for example, and you had a scholar in Mecca and Medina, for example. Yeah. What they would do back then, it would they would take into account the culture of, okay, people in Iraq, their culture's a bit different.
So when that answer, this question obviously depends on the context. Yeah. I will give them an answer based on their culture in Iraq, someone in Mecca or Medina would get a, you know, ruling based on their culture in Mecca or Medina. So, fast forward to today, what's happening now is that western Muslims especially are realizing that, you know what, a lot of these rulings we have, core stuff, obviously, you know, you can't mess about with that's, you know, you're praying five times a day, et cetera. That's, you know, you can't change that. But what Western Muslims are realizing that we need. Rulings based on our western culture here and our lifestyle here. So there's a growing movement now a bit more where they're trying to come up with rulings that are suitable culturally for us as Western Muslim as opposed to getting rulings from, you know, the Middle East or Saudi Arabia, whatever.
And, and I think the best example like this, you know, the, um, if you look at the, the the obligated charity you give once a year, two 45% of your wealth year. So traditionally in the past year, what would happen is, you know, obviously in the Muslim country, you know, the local treasury collects it, then it goes to the poor in India.
But if, if you go back to before the, you know, 2008, the big crash we sort of had back then, you know, many British Muslims, they would just work out right, 2.5% my wealth, ring up a charity where it's most needed around the world or maybe choose a country to give it to.
What's happened since then is a lot of British Muslims have realised that, you know what, we've got a lot of poverty here as well, so we need to pay some of it here. Maybe give some overseas. So you, you've had that charities pop up who now distribute that 2.5%. They distribute it here in the UK and overseas if people want it.
But yeah, that's an example of how, you know, I suppose British Muslims have adapted to the culture here and the needs here.
Neil: Okay. Well I wanna move on to Islamophobia shortly, but just a couple of other things before we do that. Again, more contentious stuff, certain terms that would be sort of weaponised by the right. Things like kafir, infidel, things like that. Cos that's often something that's used as a, as, as an attack, isn't it?
That any non-Muslim is a kafir, is that correct? And, and, and by nature is less than… I'm paraphrasing what somebody would say when someone says that, how, how can you accurately and effectively push back at that?
Rizwan: So I'm not scholar, but the, the term kafir, that's the term they're referring to. I can't remember what it means in Arabic, but basically it refers to someone who you know, because obviously like you're non-Muslim. That's how I refer to you. But a kafir will be someone who you say, Hey, look this is what Islam says.
And the person goes, you know, no thanks, I'm not interested. And they deliberately try to bury the truth. That's what refers to as a kafir, someone who deliberately on purpose knowing this, the truth actually rejects the truth.
It's sort of that, but unfortunately what's happened, it's been turned into a derogatory term by the far right. Et cetera. Yeah. And so, and even myself, I will, I never use that term. I always say non-Muslim.
Neil: Would that be used by more extreme elements of, is Islam though, as well?
Rizwan: Yes. So, so you would get probably here, especially you would get people who are more. How the extreme way of thinking, who would use that term?I personally have never used it. I probably never will. You know, I don’t like it.
Neil: Um, the other potential controversy is around apostasy when somebody chooses to leave the Islamic faith. there's a punishment by death for apostasy, which is basically leaving the Islamic faith. Is, is that another myth?
Rizwan: It is not so much a myth. I, I think again, it's like looking at the context and where you are in history in time. So if you go back to the past again, I think even, again, I'm not a scholar yet, but when it comes to apostasy, there's different debates around it. So in, you know, I suppose if you go back to early Islam.
The time was different. You had the prophet Muhammad there, you know, and Islam was established and you know, you, you really had to, there had to be something wrong with you to, from their point of view to, to leave, leave the faith. Yeah. But I don't personally remember reading about, you know, how apostate would be treated.
Obviously certain scholars say there's a death penalty and you know, you, but you're meant to like counsel the person first, talk to 'em, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. But again, fast, even over the last 1400 years, there's been different debates around it. And fast forward to today again. Yeah. Again, having lived in the west, you know, suddenly, you know, Muslims will be exposed to like, you know, atheism and this and that.
And I think, again, people are starting to talk about how to deal with it. But I think unfortunately, some people can have a very simple understanding of what. Islam says about apostasy. Now, I've tried to look at it in different levels, but I can see that there's that debate going around, and it's just like anything, as, you know, as the community's become more established here, then you're gonna have debates and talks about it.
Neil: And it's okay to have those debates?
Rizwan: Yeah, there's, you know, nothing wrong. Obviously some people will find it uncomfortable, but I think what's happening now, especially, especially in America, yeah, they're talking about this a lot more because over there they're seeing it more, where they're seeing young gen, young Muslims, they may become agnostic or leave the faith and, you know, they’re…
Neil: and it maybe converting to other faiths.
Rizwan: Yeah. But I, I think what, where things go wrong then is how the family deals with it. So sometimes you, they can have a very emotive reaction to it, which is not the Islamic reaction you should have to it. And maybe they can follow the advice given in the wrong way, but yeah, a lot of it tends to be emotional reaction. But again it's a… the topic is a lot more nuanced than people actually think it is. It's not black and white.
Neil: Yeah.
Rizwan: I think sadly, even a lot of Muslims think it's black and white. It's not, there's, there's gonna be different opinions on it and I personally just study it more myself, actually see what say. But, but yeah, I know from a Western perspective, you know, they're starting to think about things in a different way about it.
Neil: And relationships with different faiths. So, we spoke at this event about how there are some, tensions in parts of Leicester and, and Birmingham between Muslim groups and, and particularly Hindus because of the political situation.
You've got a new wave of migrants coming from India,, and those that don't know Modi, the leader of India is, is part of the BJP, which is, is is seen as a kind of sort of Hindu right wing party that pushing for sort of Hindu nationalism. And there is some of those tensions that are taking place in India, finding their way into the UK.
Is that a kind of a new thing, some of those tensions, or is it revisiting stuff that was there before?
Rizwan: I think if we look at the UK, I would say it's a new thing. Yeah. I personally, you know, I mean, if I think back to where my dad's generation came, the Hindus, Sikhs and Muslim community actually used to be all together.
Neil: They kind of banded together, didn't they?
Rizwan: As Asians, they had to, 'cause they were, you know, buying houses, sharing houses together, et cetera, et cetera.
It's only as these three communities became more established that they sort of, you know, separated into Muslim, Sikh. But even when, when they're at university. When I think about university, yeah. We were a mixed group of Hindu, Sikhs and Muslims. I've never forgotten that. We were like a family together.
Yeah. Obviously I'm not a sociologist, but I think it's just, it's just, it's been a natural evolution from the fact that as communities have become more established, there's not that need for, that. I think it's just sort of come about from there as people have become more established. But that's the older generation. But even I would still say Looking at the second, third generation, et cetera, we see each other as Asians and it's still that, it's still there to a degree, that bond that we're, we're all, you know, even though I'm Pakistani or Indian or whatever, we still have that commonality as Asians.
And I think the stuff happening in Leicester, that's external actors provoking things and stirring things up, and that's where that's coming from. But I think on the whole, no matter what city you look in, they've always had pretty good relations in general.
Neil: And, and particularly Bristol, there's the Grand Iftar is a good example of that, where all the different, you know, it's obviously, it's a, it's a Muslim thing, but all the different leaders of different faiths come to that and speak. I just wonder whether that's the case in, some of those other cities where there are some sort of tension points, whether Bristol's an anomaly perhaps…
Rizwan: I think all those places, they, they have like their events and you know, from what I can see, everyone goes to those. Yeah. So there's no separation with those events…
Neil: we've got, 6.7% of the population in the UK Muslims predominantly south Asian lots of London boroughs, satellite times, northern mill towns. Many will have experienced racism as being part of a sort of longstanding, community. Islamophobia is a big thing.
It's on the rise. Is Islamophobia kind of racism or is it faithism or what kind of is it and where is it coming from?
Rizwan: I think the racism, hatred of the others, it is what it is. But yeah, Islamophobia …
Neil: But of course to be a Muslim is multicultural, isn't it? You know, people can be white, there could be people can be of all nations and all races and be a Muslim that can and can experience Islamophobia.
Rizwan: yeah. But what's interesting about Islamophobia is that even, you know, white British converts Islam, they’ll experience it as well, once identified as Muslims. And I think unfortunately the way things are growing uh, going, sorry, sadly in the wake of it.
Other Asians get caught, like Sikhs and Hindus get caught and as well, 'cause people just see ignorant people, just, oh, you're brand, you must, you're Muslim. And, and they suffer as well to a lesser degree, but unfortunately they suffer as well the effects of the Islamophobia. And it is growing, you know, it is getting worse.
Neil: What's fueling that?
Rizwan: I think it is multifactorial. So for example, we, we know it's been getting worse since the early two thousands. The Runnymede Trust did some research that showed that even back then, you know, Muslims were experiencing exclusion, you know employment, prejudice in the media and everyday conversation discrimination, you know…
And I think what's making it worse is you've got the media which keeps portraying Muslims in a negative light. And the Cardiff School of Journalism, they did some research back around 2008, 2010. They found that Muslims are disproportionately. In the media negative way. And even, I know this is common sense yet to all of us, but the, in New Zealand, they did some research back in 2017 and what they studied was if you keep exposing people to negative images about images, about Muslims, what will be effect?
Yeah. And what they found was that surprise, surprise you because they picked New Zealand for a reason. 'cause this is before the Christchurch attack. And they picked New Zealand. 'cause New Zealand had no foreign policy beef with any of the Muslim countries. It was very peaceful place. But what they found was that as you expose people more and more to negative stereotypes about Muslims, hostility towards Muslims naturally grew as well.
This is research. You can look online. So you've got that over in America. Unfortunately, what started happening there, early 2000s. You had a whole growth industry in Islamophobia and there, there was like a cabal. They've gone quiet now. But you had like people like Robert Spence, uh uh, David Horowitz, a whole bunch of them who would just go out.
Promote rubbish about Islam and even someone like Robert Spencer, I think he's got a website called Jihad Watch or something. Yeah. So he, there's a newspaper that investigate in the early 2000, they found that just off the back of this year, he's earning like $180,000. I mean, it is crazy. Yeah. So you've had all that going on.
And then off certain parts of the media and even GB News, I think was it last year there was a report that said they were over focusing on stories about Muslims in, in their negative life. So you've got all that going on. Then you've got social media, all the echo chambers there, a lot of disinformation over there.
We saw the effects of that with the Southport, you know, riots last year. So it's a whole mishmash of thing,
Neil: It's a whole mishmash of things. Lemme give some data for that then. So in the last year, two in five religious hate crimes target Muslims, one in three target Jews, we've, in, um, March, 2024, uh, there were 140,000 hate crimes recorded by police. Which is an increase on from 5%. Uh, it's a 30% increase, particularly is in Islamophobia and hate crimes that were racially motivated account for 70% of such offensive.
So there's, it's clearly something that's kind of becoming even more sort of contentious. One of the controversial things, which is coming now is around the definition. So the definition, that was the formal definition of what Islamophobia, which was first proposed in 2019 by the all parliamentary party group is Islamophobia is rooted in racism and is a type of racism that targets expressions of Muslimness or perceived Muslimness.
Do you agree with that definition? Because that's had some pushback, hasn't it? So there is actually a working group being set up to, to work on changing the definition of what that is, to be more precise. So firstly, do you agree that's an accurate assessment? And do you welcome this new report?
Rizwan: I think that definition, I think a lot of people welcome 'cause it's common sense. It makes sense. I what Islamophobia is. I think where the pushback comes is on people worried, oh, I can't, I can't criticise Islam now.
Neil: And that's what people like Reform MP Lee Anderson, he, he's called it a made up word to stop people having legitimate good faith criticism of, of the religion.
Rizwan: And here's the thing. Muslims aren't saying you can't criticise Islam. They're saying it, someone's made it up. And even when I go out and do my talks here, I teach people, look, there's nothing wrong with criticizing Islam. You're allowed to, it's been happening 1400 years. There's nothing wrong with doing it.
What's wrong is when you start thinking, you know, you're not old terrorists or this, et cetera. That's what's wrong when you demonise the community, but you're allowed to criticise Islam. There's nothing wrong with doing that. You know, it's, it's not a problem, but that's where the pushback is coming from.
Neil: And even, you know, some, some you know, criticism is you've got, you know, people like Richard Dawkins or the late Christopher Hitchens, that they're almost democratic in their criticism of religions equally to the Catholic vote, to, to Judaism as they are to Islam. But they would get, particularly targeted pushback from the Muslim community. that balance between what is blasphemy or what is a hate crime and what is freedom of speech. It's always been a little bit grey.
Rizwan: I think it, it's about being respectful So for example, like said there's nothing wrong with criticizing, but sometimes, you know, let's say for example, you know, you know, for Muslims, all prophets are highly revered in Islam from Jesus, you know, Moses, Muhammed, everyone yet so personally, like, you know, when I'm watching, you know, if I see TV and I see.
Jesus portrayed the sin. I, I personally don't like it. Yeah. I'm obviously, I'm not gonna kick off about, but I don't like it. But I think with prophet Muhammad, there's a very emotional attachment there. And that's why, um, you know, sometimes you can get the un Islamic reaction from some Muslims towards that.
But again, on the other side, I would say there's a element of just being respectful, for example, you know, let's say, you know, if you ask a Muslim woman, excuse me, why do you wear hijab? She's not, she won't stop talking to you. But if you said, excuse me, love, why have you got a towel on your head?She'll be offended by that. It’s how you ask. And I think, again, personally, I think, you know, we've become too scared to talk to each other. There's nothing wrong with asking questions politely.
And I think sometimes well-meaning people can make assumptions on your behalf. I'll never forget, I think it was back in 20 13, 14 15, I don't remember that yet, but I remember in Radstock that that was a story where they didn't wanna raise the England flag because the council didn't wanna offend, I think the 16, 18 Muslims that lived there.
And it, it became a big hoo-ha about it. But I remember when I went on the radio to talk about it, I said, you know what? They probably don't even care. Someone made a story out of nothing, basically. But what it's done, unfortunately, they're probably well-meaning when they did it, but what's happened is just demonised Muslim community again, you know?
So it comes back to the point, you know, don't be afraid to ask question. I think even as a British, Asian, Muslim, I think, I don't know how to word it, but political correctness has gone a bit too far.
Neil: Is that, yeah, I want to ask you that. And actually, and is that in my experience right, any questions around race or religion directed to a person from any part, particular faith or ethnic group is, it's usually taken on the whole, relatively well. And I think there's a bit of perhaps gatekeeping from liberal people that are like, oh, you can't do that.
You can't say that. And it's like, well, I think if people, and I think this is after this is part of the issue, is people have got, you know, people fill the blanks in, don't they, when they don't really understand something. So would you, generally speaking then the Muslim community would welcome more good faith, robust questions around, you know, stuff you know… how does you know modern feminism in the UK square to elements of Islam? I mean, that's, that's a, that's probably a question that a lot of people would have…
Rizwan: Yeah. You, you've got, even in the Muslim community in the uk, they actually got a whole feminist movement growing as well. I think when people don't understand what's happening on the inside from the outside, they just make assumptions and, and pereive the worst. But a lot of people welcome those conversations. They wouldn’t be afraid to have them. It's just people make assumptions on your behalf that, I don't wanna upset them or…
Neil: Yeah, sure. And those, that, that's an obvious one that comes out. The other one would be around gay, queer, trans rights. That that would be something that people would jump to an assumption about,
Rizwan: Yes. I think people, again, seem the worst. And I think, again, I'm trying to grossly oversimplified things here…
Neil: Would you be accepted as gay in the, in the Islamic community, or trans?
Rizwan: So from, from the Islamic perspective you know, in terms of Islamic theology having same sex attraction, that's not sinful. It's only if you act on it in a physical sense. Having same sex attraction doesn't take you out the fault of Islam. You're still a Muslim. But the problem is, I, I would say many Muslims don't understand what Islam actually says about it.
Neil: Okay. But practicing homosexuality? Practicing homosexuality would be…
Rizwan: Just… having Christianity and, and other faiths…
Neil: No, no, I was about to say that. No different than certainly the more evangelists…
Rizwan: But having said that, at the same time, you know what you do in the privacy of your own home, that's up to you. It's, it's in the external sphere, that's where especially in the Muslim country, that's where may become a issue.
Neil: If I walked into a mosque and so I wanted to convert to, to become a Muslim, and I was openly gay. And I vocalised that. Would that be a problem?
Rizwan: Personally for me, it wouldn't.
Neil: Not you personally, but as in the broader…
Rizwan: It depends on, on the mosque and the individual and their understanding of the issue. So some people are ignorant and be like, get lost and you can’t…
Neil: And, and is this one of the challenges because there isn't, like, you know, like in the Catholic church, there's a kind of, there isn't like the equivalent of that is there I know it's a moving piece sometimes and they do change elements of doctrine, but there is like a sort of hierarchical authority that would have certain positions on certain issues.
Less so in, in, um, Protestantism where there are different denominations and stuff. And is this one of the challenges, is that because there isn't like a, a particular hierarchical structure?
Rizwan: Yeah, we, we don't have like a, you know, a head of state, et cetera, et cetera
Neil: So therefore some of this stuff is open to individual interpretation or in, or different perspectives?
Rizwan: I mean, personally. Yeah. Just from what I've read Obviously you're gonna get like offshoots and some people who may form their own opinions, but when I look at the core, you know, the what, the majority, you know, I can see that I don't, I don't know, word it wrong, but it, it won't be allowed.
But at the same time, you know, being gay won't take you out of Islam. Does that makes sense. But this is one of those issues that it's only now, you know, Western Muslims are having, starting to have a dialogue and, and talk about, it's not, it's not something they've had to deal with in the past.
It's like quite a new thing and because they've got so much other stuff they're dealing with. It's just got, you know, mis mixed up in, in the other priorities because obviously we've got Islamophobia going, all this other stuff going on, but it's just a, it's a new thing that they have to discuss and talk about.
Neil: Yeah. This is sensitive stuff now, but we are on the cusp of a new, grooming gang inquiry. That's organised groups that sexually exploit young women and girls there've been a u-turn by the government.
A review by the crossbench pair, Louise Casey found that the ethnicity of gangs had I quote, been shied away from. By local authorities across England and wells, often not recorded or sometimes redacted in three police areas where all the information was available. That's Greater Manchester, south Yorkshire, west Yorkshire, Casey found that there was enough evidence to show a disproportionate amount of numbers of men from Asian, in particular Pakistani ethnic backgrounds among suspects for group based sexual exploitation. This has obviously been an area of toxic debate for years, and the report says, our collective failure to address questions about the ethnicity of grooming gangs has dominated political and institutional focus with energy devoted to proving the point on the one hand, or avoiding or playing it down on the other, and adds: This does no one any favours at all and least of all the Asian, Pakistani, or Muslim communities.
So what's happening is the kind of, uh, she's gone and done a report and realised that actually lots of this stuff has been redacted. Immediately the right have jumped on this and said, there you go. See, this has proven our point. People are calling it a cover up…
Okay. That's the first thing. The second thing is people that have sat on their hands and have been nervous about this stuff and redacted that, that doesn't help either, does it? Because if there's a problem or there's a particular issue in any cultural group, whatever that is, to deny, that doesn't help actually.
Rizwan: No. And then obviously, I dunno what's happened behind the scenes, but I would say in that situation, you know, that one, maybe they could have consulted different communities. The communities involved say that, what do you think? This is what's happening? And have those honest conversations. But I think, but then, you know, in the bigger picture of things.
What we need to also look at is. Why are these things happening? You know? And you know, it's predominantly, you know, men, et cetera. There's obviously a societal problem here that we need to look at that why are young girls being exploited in this way? And we need to, basically, it's another…
Neil: And they're, and the victims are particularly, are the same type of victim as they are. you've had the Catholic church sort of, scandal over there. You've obviously had care homes in the UK in the, in the seventies and eighties. Here, you've now got this happening. They're usually young kids that are in care that don't have any sort of parental protection, that are kind of vulnerable, really. And that needs looking into and I, I wonder if well-meaning good people have kind of turned a blind eye to a particular type of abuse that's been taking place in, in the northwest, in the UK.
The only cases that went to court and got proven was in, Rotherham. And it took a British Pakistani QC to take that over line because he wasn't nervous by going there because all he saw was abuse and victims. Yeah. And I think there's something in that for me.
Rizwan: Yeah. He actually got pushback from the far right for that.
Neil: Yeah, he did. Yeah. And push back a little bit from his own community as well. So from both ends, you know, for people with a particular, agendas from both sides. I didn't know whether you've, you felt as if there's a danger if the report doesn't get this right, it it could be used as a, as a weapon to, to hit and target people from the Pakistani community.
Rizwan: Uh, I think if it goes back to having this honest conversation again, I think either way, no matter what happens, they're gonna use it as ammo now. It's like the cat out the bag type thing and they'll try and get as much mileage out of it as they can, unfortunately. But I think again, came back to the bigger picture.
You know, I personally feel we need to look at why are these things happening? Yeah. Why are young girls being exploited, we clearly have a problem as a nation as a whole. You know, the perpetrators aren’t just Pakistanis, you know, white, British, everyone. There are lots of perpetrators out. Then we need to look…
Neil: But just to push back just a little bit, but the specific, where they're, the, the specific crime of not broader child abuse, grooming gangs. Young girls. Young white girls. Yeah. what they've discovered in these videos is a disproportionality to their ethnicity being British, Pakistani, and, and men, obviously British, Pakistani men. But what's been interesting for me is there was pushback because they were saying Asian, first of all, Rizwan, right? And then there were people, Indians that said, well, hang on a minute. And then even, and then British, Pakistani.
I wanted to ask you this question. It's a little bit loaded, but I, I, again, I wanna be sort of open and honest, is that I saw, I read an article written by a British Pakistani guy from Punjab who was saying that grooming gangs are quite prevalent in Mirpur. And this is something that's been brought across from there. And he was saying, don't say British, Pakistani. Be specific and say, people from Mirpur.
Rizwan: I think the far right won't care about that. They'll probably still…
Neil: The far right might not… it'll be weaponizd. They're always gonna do that anyway. But I think what it can do is actually. Perhaps start a conversation. 'cause most people don't understand this stuff. Uh, most people don't understand, have a broad brush understanding of, of Islam.
And you do this, you do that, you look like this, you, that. It's actually by talking perhaps more about what we spoke about earlier, about different cultural differences, different historical differences, different geographical differences to, to the faith. There isn't one huge homogenous homogenous group of people that, oh, he's a Muslim, therefore he is like that, that, that, that, that, and that.
What it would do is you start talking about culture a bit more in the same way that people don't immediately talk about someone's Christian faith. If they've been a perpetrator of something, it may happen less to somebody of Islamic fate. If, if people are more specific about the cultural element…
Rizwan: Yeah. And, and, and…
Neil: Are you with me? I think it could push back at some of that…
Rizwan: But, and for me, paradoxically, the weird thing, because obviously these are criminals who engage in this year, but paradoxically, you're not allowed to have sex before marriage. You can only have sex with the person you marry. That's it. I don't know how, if that makes sense, but I, I find it paradoxical that people, Muslims would engage in this behavior in the first place.
'cause it's simply not allowed I, I think the far right. Try and say that Islam justifies this, it doesn't Yeah. It's completely un-Islamic behavior. In fact.
Neil: Do you think, like some people would say that maybe the. whether that's the Muslim community or the British Pakistani community or, or, you know, could there be more of a robust message of condemnation when things like this happen.
One of the accusations is that the community sort of turned a blind eye to some of this stuff. Yeah. In small mill towns in the north, you know, knew what was going on and, you know, didn't really alert the authorities. The other one was that local authorities themselves – councils, social services, police also turned a blind eye that actually there's nobody comes outta this without being you know, implicit.
Rizwan: Yeah, that, that's shocking, that's not good. And I think again, it's coming back to having this honest conversation. I think also, I think maybe more education needed, like if you do see wrong happening, you need stand up for it because even, you know, as a Muslim you’re meant to stand up for justice.
I think most people would speak up, but again, over there, I dunno what's happened, what the community's like, community dynamics, it's all very different compared to, because there is a North South divide between British Muslims as well…
Neil: That's interesting. Okay.
Rizwan: Yeah. I would say there's a north south divide.
Neil: The, the other thing I wanted to touch on is around, around Islamophobia that obviously we're talking about Muslims being the, predominantly being the sort of the victims of racism. I raised this in, in the conversation we had at the SARI event is, do you see an increase in antisemitism. From Muslims, obviously with the situation, what we're seeing is happening in Gaza and you know, the, the increasing sort of tension in the Middle East. I wonder if that, you know, you come across much antisemitism within people within the Muslim faith.
Rizwan: I personally haven't seen it, but I think what there's a lot of anger is towards Israeli government, what's happening at the moment. So you'll see a lot of anger, not just from Muslim, everyone in general, but I would say it, I think most people understand that what's happening is not linked to Judaism in any way. It's totally separate. It's just what that government is doing, and that's where you see the anger coming up…
So I think sometimes we've all, just like we've talked about having on honest conversation about what's happening. All these gangs, we've got to have honest conversation about how the current Israeli government behaving as well.
It's no point trying to hide because people are seeing things on social media. We all live in different social spheres, you know, different equity and people are watching things live streamed and it's, yeah, it, there needs to be some honesty there as well. We can't just keep saying everything's, you know, antisemitic…
Neil: Do you… it sounds like you're saying there isn't much honesty in that, I guess in terms of the media or in terms of what you are seeing discussed.
Rizwan: I think unfortunately our mainstream media has not… up until recently, they're not shown the reality of what's happening.
And, but we live in a different age now where people are just live streaming everything and you know,
Neil: So they can't, there's no, you can't control the narrative now. And I think have you seen a tipping point? Up until recently I've seen a slight tipping point, actually a slight change. And even people that would've been kind of toed the line a little bit with what's going on in Israel, suddenly being appalled by what they see.
Rizwan: yeah, because I think eventually you reach critical mass and you can't ignore it anymore. And even so look at Piers Morgan. He's changed his tune…
Neil: Yeah, he has. That's, that's exactly who I was thinking of. Yeah. Yeah.
Rizwan: Because it reached a stage where… I can't defend this anymore. I have to talk about it now. You know, it pulls at the heart strings at some stage and you think this is enough's enough now.
And I think it's reached a level of suffering and, you know, violence that, you know, people just can't tolerate and, and they feel compelled to speak up. And I think that's why you had, obviously people just, it wasn't good what was said, but they were venting the anger and frustration and not being…
Neil: Oh, you're talking about the, what they called Bob Vylan?
Rizwan: Yeah, exactly. And I think it was, it just, people just vented their frustration and anger that just…
Neil: I put a tweet out saying that what I find quite interesting is people become more, and this goes across the board, I think, actually people, people often are more offended by song or a joke by a comedian or a statement by a politician about something happening than they actually are about the actual thing that's happening.
Rizwan: Yeah, exactly. It's, it's really weird. And, and, and thing is you again, you know, if, if you watch feeds coming out you've got. We've seen it, we've seen Israeli politicians say even worse, you know, and it's on the mainstream TV.
Neil: Yeah. And there clearly is, there clearly is a bit of a critical mass happening, and there clearly is, a difference between the antisemitism thing is used as a shield. But to just to go back to, you know, there are you know, in some of the countries surrounding, you know, some of the more I mean, you know, Hamas, you know themselves, there is, there is quite a strong antisemitic strand. Isn't that, it isn't just to do with the state of Israel, the government, it's to do with sort of, is it, is it to do with Zionism itself or…
Rizwan: I think it's more, it's, it's more to do with that because if you look at the Middle East here Muslim Christians and Jews have always lived in harmony. Throughout that whole time. Obviously you are, you're gonna get the odd bit of friction here and there every now and then.
But on the whole, we've all lived quite peacefully. And so I think whatever racism there is there, it's not so much against Judaism. More probably against political ideology. That's where what it's probably directed towards. Because of the history of that region.
Neil: Sure. I wanna kind of turn it around a little bit and, and, and, and talk about as we start to wrap up really, um, around, you know, we live in a multicultural society in, you know, increasingly one that, you know, we're both from inner city, Bristol Easton is, massively changed and become far more multicultural.
Got people from all over the world, you know, certain groups that weren't there. Um, when we grew up you've got different faiths. We've got different sort of beliefs. This is a bit of a cheesy question really, but how can we generally start to all get along maybe a bit better?
Rizwan: I think that the, the biggest thing is just something I've observed and I think as social media has grown, it's actually made us more distant and separate from each other. 'cause you know, even as neighbours, we don't talk to each other anymore hardly. And I think we've, we've got to try and bring back that communication that, you know, just people talking to each other.
When I was growing up here, so we, we were like three houses on our street. So to our right, we had the elderly white couple living there to our left. So we in the middle we're Pakistani family to our left, we had Afro-Caribbean family. Yeah. But we used to be in and out of each other's houses.
And I remember every Christmas, the elderly white couple, they would give us some stocking full of chocolate bars, which we used to love as kids. Yeah. And then even when they had to move out to retirement home yet, but my dad made a point of us visiting them until they both passed away in our retirement home.
The Afro-Caribbean family, they actually immigrated to America. Yeah. But to this day, my, my younger brother keeps in touch with the boy who, who immigrated to America. He's a policeman. He's a police officer in America now. But they, they still keep in touch with each other. And I think we've got to bring that sense of community belonging back to our society, get people talk.
Because once you get people talking, connecting with each other, then you start looking out for each other and you're building that…
Neil: and that tends to happen in a sort of grassroots, natural kind of way, doesn't it? I I sometimes think when they, there these sort of slightly forced integration things that usually by sort of people that get in the way, it doesn't really help. You know? I like you, I, you know, we come from the same place My street was, was the same and we didn't, to be honest with you, I didn't really think about it that much.
Obviously you knew you were different than the different families and stuff but actually there was a, a kind of working class multicultural solidarity thing, I think.
Rizwan: I think it just simply boils down. Like I said, just get people talking to each other, get neighbours talking to each other. And once you do that, it will, it will come about from there. 'cause once you talk to each other, you humanise each other. And even though you may have cultural differences They go out on the wayside. And you, because you, you start seeing each other as human beings. Rather than, oh, you're from another country. think the best example I would give, I had to give a talk at a place once. After the after the session, this elderly lady came up to me.
She tapped me on my arm. She goes, well, you know what? I didn't realise Muslims had a sense of humour. I was like, cheers, love, thanks a lot. Yeah. But her perception was that Muslims all miserable. But once she met me straight away, that barrier …
Neil: And that's what you are, you know, that's what you've kind of dedicated your work to haven't you really, and your career is removing those barriers, those kind of preconceptions, those stereotypes, those kind of myths to, move it outta the way and then connect with the human being.
Because I mean, you know, it's obvious we're all human beings. I wonder if we should start, I wonder, this is my sort of final point or final question to you actually. Do, you think we've spent too much time thinking about how we're different and there's been lots of well-meaning kind of diversity things and actually we've done all that now and that's great. We should start to rethink about the similarities of experience that we have, the moments of, of exchange more. Family, children, humour or, you know what I mean? Just, just generally we need to start looking at why we're, how we're more similar.
Rizwan: Exactly. I think people, we, we have a lot more in common than we have different, like, for example, as human being, doesn't matter what faith, culture, you know, race you're from, as a family, you're still gonna worry about the same things. I need a good education, I need a job, I need to put food on the table.
We all have, have this common worries. You know, you know, kids got, you know, you'll be fighting with remote control. I wanna watch this, I wanna watch that. People forget that there's human beings at the at, at at, at the core of it, and we're all the same. It's just, we have a few of these differences, but as human beings, we're all exactly the same.
Neil: And I think even if you, you may or may not, may or not agree with this, but if, if you strip back the religious part, you know, you said yourself, it's, it's the same God, we're a human being. We're born and we die. We all have that in, we all have that in common, don't we? Yeah.
Rizwan: Yeah. And even if, if you look at, you know, core values as a Muslim. So, you know, often you hear, I'm going on a bit of a tangent here, but you know, people say, oh, you know, your values are not in line with British values, but are you saying that, you know, to worship God, give to charity, look after poor people, my neighbours, that's not in line with British values? Is that what you're saying?
Neil: Yeah, I hear you. I hear you. The irony, right. I, you know, be sort of careful how I say this, but the things we said about a little bit, the irony actually is I've, and I've always said and thought this is in the Asian community, there is a sort of small c social conservatism, family values, which I ironically is very, very similar to lots of people that are sort of voting Reform and stuff like that, there is a congruence there that people can't see…
Rizwan: Reah, and I, and I think even again, talking about assumptions again, I remember I gave a talk recently somewhere, and I had to explain to the person that as a British Muslim, yeah, this is my culture. I don't want this to turn to Saudi Arabia like you think it's going to be – because this is my culture. This is how I live. Yeah. 'cause she had the assumption that as a Muslim I wanted to turn into like Saudi Arabia or something like that, but I don’t. I'm British for a reason. This is why I live here. Does that make sense?
Neil: Yeah. It does. It does.. And it makes sense of what you said about when you go back to. Pakistan, how actually you are also seen as, you're seen as not quite being from there, or, or there's a difference to you. You are now a bit western This is really interesting. Fascinating. I feel like I could talk to you for another hour and a half Rizwan really, and, um, I, I appreciate and I thank you for, allowing me to play devil's advocate a bit and push and nudge on some things. 'cause I, I, I genuinely feel it's quite important for people to be allowed to ask questions and to challenge on some stuff.
Because that's how we, how we reach. Understanding isn't it, and and respect.
Rizwan: I just hope I did, did justice to it all. That's the main things.
Neil: Thank you very much.