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Talking with Tarashuk is a podcast about self-expression, creativity, and the power of storytelling. I'm your host, Tarashuk, a podcaster, editor, clip cutter, and graphic designer. I'm passionate about sharing my stories and helping others to do the same. In each episode, I'll chat with guests from all walks of life about their experiences, challenges, and triumphs. We'll talk about everything from creativity and entrepreneurship to personal growth and relationships.
If you want to be a guest email me at willytproductionsinfo@gmail.com
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the podcast. If this is your first time a podcast, it's a personally oriented discussion centered all around select topics. And today's topics are all about the psychology of money and how childhood trauma can lead to adult spending habits. My guest today is Dave Wan, a founder and CEO of Budget Capture, which is a holistic financial wellness company. Who am I?
Speaker 1:I'm Will Taraschuck, the founder of Willie T Productions as well as a professional podcast host. So grab on to your wallet, open your minds, because we're gonna get a deep understanding of why you are gonna spend so much money on Black Friday. Alright, Dave. And just like that, the podcast has started. We are recording, and we are all set and ready to go, my friend.
Speaker 1:Good morning. How are you? It is a Friday morning as of recording this, and I cannot be more happy and excited to do this. How are you, my friend?
Speaker 2:Good. Good, Will. Hey. Good morning to you. I am so pumped to be here and just looking forward to such a a a really good conversation with you, when when it comes to psychology of money and our money history and why we do what we do.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Pretty much, man. That's that's your expertise. So you are the expert. I am the one looking for answers.
Speaker 1:So let's start off with the first one. Just give me a basic foundational definition of money psychology. People call it, behavioral economics, but money psychology, whatever term you prefer. Please go ahead. Give us a definition.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So when it comes to money psychology, it's essentially our behaviors around money and everything that contributes to it. And when I say everything, like, I mean everything. Right? So I focus on the behavioral side versus the clinical side.
Speaker 2:You'll need to get professional help for that. But I believe a really good starting point is identifying unhealthy money patterns and behaviors in your life and then digging deep as to why those actions are happening in the first place. And so you're you're mixing mental health into that and understanding how your brain works, understanding how it's being developed when you were a child, and all of those things early on in age is going to impact and dictate and determine how you behave with money as an adult. So, behavior is like the underlying definition, but you go much deeper, into that and see what see what that looks like.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And I feel like this is a relatively not a new thing because money psychology has always been around. Right? You see a lot with advertising. McDonald's uses red because red is associated with hunger, and hunger associates with McDonald's and food and yada yada yada.
Speaker 1:But not so much on the the consumer to consumer side or the the more the consumer side of, okay, businesses can understand your mind psychology, but you need to understand it yourself. I mean, has this been around for a while? Because I've been seeing it popping up more and more and more. Behavior economics is a master's program in a lot of business schools. The understanding of why you spend how you spend is is like a breakthrough, like, boom, light bulb moment.
Speaker 1:So how relatively new is this whole process?
Speaker 2:It's been around forever, but it's it just hasn't been talked about, as of late. Mental health just hasn't been one of those topics that is talked about in society that much. But the tide is is starting to change, and you can't you can't separate money and mental health, from the same sentence. It has to always be together. So I actually I actually believe the conversation around money and mental health is is changing.
Speaker 2:So so it's really important to understand, like, why you're behaving the way you do and why you are spending the money the way you do. And when it comes to money, like, everything about us, our behaviors, our darkest secrets, things that we don't even wanna share with people are revealed on money. And the people that make money off of us already know that. Right? So they're actually targeting our weakest spots, in order to have us open up our wall up or our pocketbooks.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I mean, it's all about you know, we're we're approaching November, so Black Friday is coming. And it's just, you know, the psychology of a sale.
Speaker 1:You see that, oh, It happened to me literally yesterday. So I bought I bought a new video game because the new one that's out, Spider Man 2, is only available on PlayStation 5, which which I have a PC I'm a PC gamer, so it's not available. But Spider Man Miles Morales is 40% off, and I bought it. I didn't think twice about it. I bought it instantly.
Speaker 1:I've been telling myself all week, you know, you don't need new games. You don't need this. You don't need that. But I saw that sale, 40% off, only $20, and I bought it. So this, like, how do you explain the psychology of a sale?
Speaker 1:What what, like, makes that thing in our brain tick to trick us to go thing, I need this now?
Speaker 2:So when it comes to, the psychology of a so I mean, like, our brain is just crazy how it works, but, I I like to, take a look at money and, combine that with our identity. Right? Like keeping up with the Joneses. Like, why is that happening? Why do we need that new car or that new game?
Speaker 2:Or what what is the reason behind that? So I think it's important to look at the behavior. Like, oh, this is making me me tick, or this is making me falter, and here I am trying to buy these things. So why is that happening? And I believe there's, like, a void in somebody's life perhaps.
Speaker 2:Like, now when I'm when I'm talking about that, I'm talking about above and beyond the bare minimum to live. But why is that happening? I think there's a void in people's hearts, that people are trying to fill with stuff. Right? And so it's really important to understand, like, why why we're doing that.
Speaker 2:And a lot of those behaviors are actually rooted, deeply in our childhood. So yeah. So they want you to fit in. They want you to be happy. They want you to get that dopamine hit, when you when you buy these things, but then that's that's going to die off.
Speaker 2:You know? So it's really important to understand, like, why that's happening, versus all the external things like advertisements and what they're what they're trying to do. It's important to understand yourself because if the foundation and your money identity is is not on stable ground, then you're gonna be whiplash back and forth. Whenever there's like ads popping up all over the place.
Speaker 1:When it also feels good. Right? You buy you buy that thing, and it is that that instant gratification in this in a world where attention spans are so short. You who knows how long we'll be playing that game for? But I played it last night and it felt amazing.
Speaker 1:But that that little that little juice of, oh, I did something. And, you know, you work so hard, hard. You work all these hours. Yet you wanna treat yourself every now and then. So it's just that outside factors can also play into inside behavioral reactions.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You do get that feel good moment. Yeah. But but it's important to understand how dopamine actually works.
Speaker 1:Right?
Speaker 2:It's a chemical that's released into your body. And if you take a look at, like, dopamine levels, it's actually highest in anticipation of a reward, not when you get the reward. Right? So when you buy something, the action leading up to it the moment leading up to it is actually when dopamine is gradually rising and at the peak. But as soon as soon as you buy it, it's gonna start crashing pretty pretty quickly.
Speaker 1:And that makes sense too because how many times you bought something and you get pomey go, why did I buy this? Why why why do I have this? And then that's just that's just how it works. That make that makes a lot of sense because, yeah, the I never thought of it like that. The anticipation of getting something is way better than actually getting something.
Speaker 1:It's just another it's find foundation of psychology. You always want what you don't have. And once you want it, once you get it, then you want something else. You know, you see this all the time with business, and then it's called called moving the goalposts. Like, 6 months ago, I would I would I would say I in my business, I I have what I wanted 6 months ago.
Speaker 1:Well, now that I have it, I want something else. And, you know, that can also probably be tied to the psychology and trauma, but I do wanna shift the conversation more towards childhood trauma because that's kind of your bread and butter. You know, I I deal a lot with financial people, but I've always heard, you know, psychology this, build a budget that. But childhood trauma is the first one for me. So how did you come up with this thesis of, you know, childhood traumas lead to financial spending habits?
Speaker 1:Because childhood traumas can lead to a bunch of different things in all aspects of life. You know, your childhood shapes your adulthood, But finances, it works the same tune. It's not something you hear too much of about. So please introduce your thesis and how you came up with it and where it came from.
Speaker 2:So the reason why you don't, like, hear about money and, like, how it impacts our life in literally every way possible is because literally everything about us, everything about us is tied to money. Everything. So in a relationship, you could hide something if you really wanted to. At work, you could hide something if you wanted to. But when it comes to money, your behaviors are going to come up to the surface and be revealed.
Speaker 2:So the thesis that I came up with is actually, I'm sure other people have come up with it, but I I've lived through the pain myself, which is why, which is why, it it was really it was really, something that just, like, came out came on to me and just made sense to me. So what happened was in 2016, I ended up buying my first house. Leading up to that home purchase, everything on paper looked perfect. I had no debt, good amount of money in savings. I had, a decent net worth as a 29 year old.
Speaker 2:I just landed my dream job and I had a plan. Right? Planners talk about plans. Advisors talk about plans. I had a plan for what I wanna do with this house.
Speaker 2:It was a 5 bedroom house.
Speaker 1:I You you living my dream right now, Dave. You're building up everything I wanna be, so I'm just don't crash me too hard. No. Don't crash my dreams too hard, but please continue.
Speaker 2:So I I lived I I had a plan for what I wanted to do with this house. It was a 5 bedroom house. Living in one of them and have 4 roommates that would pay off my mortgage and give me some, give me some extra cash flow. K? I mean, you hear this all over all over the place.
Speaker 2:Right? Do this to that. Make some extra money here and there. Right? So despite having that plan, what happened?
Speaker 2:2 days after I closed on my house, I suffered the biggest panic attack in my life. Heart rate through the roof, it felt like my heart was coming out of my chest, 96 beats per minute as I was waking up. Like, that never happens. It's like that's like the same thing as, like, me going on a run somewhere. Like like, why is my heart beating so fast?
Speaker 2:And that happened for about a 3 month period. I would try to go to the gym to shake things off. Wasn't happening. So it freaked me out. It I had terrible thoughts going through my head, and I wanted to kinda escape that fear.
Speaker 2:And part of escaping that fear was, maybe I should maybe I should sell this house. Maybe this house isn't for me. So 2 weeks after I closed on the house, I put it back on the market. And I was willing to lose money on it because that's how painful the situation was. I was willing to lose up to $40,000.
Speaker 2:Just doing the math, I'm like, if I could sell it for this much and lose $40, that's that's better than me going through this pain. But I did not sell the house Okay. Because there was no buyers. This was 2016, by the way. There were no buyers, and that situation forced me to actually live through my pain versus escaping from it.
Speaker 2:So if I escaped from it, it would have been a temporary Band Aid where it would have felt good temporarily, but there might have been another instance in life where that fear would have come up again. So what ended up happening, what I realized was looking back, it was my subconscious fear of the unknown and fear of uncertainty, which was deeply rooted in my childhood that came up to the surface and revealed itself in this moment of time. And I said, where did that come from? Like I said, it came from my childhood, and then I started to relive some of these moments that I could consciously remember. My parents were fearful about everything, and I'm like, oh, I made an agreement.
Speaker 2:It's like I was shaking hands with myself as a kid. I made an agreement that, oh, what my mom and dad were doing, I'm going to adopt it into my own life. This is all subconscious. Right? It's like it's like shaking hands on myself, but not really doing it.
Speaker 2:You don't look at your mom and go, I wanna be like you when I grew up. It just kinda happens.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Right? No. It is not. You you you grew up and turned to your mother, and it's Or or your or your dad or your father.
Speaker 1:Right? You grew up and become your parents, and that's that's a 100% true. I I as I get older, I turn more and more into my parents every day. And, you know, in most ways, that's a compliment.
Speaker 2:Yep. So so looking back, I was like, wow. I wanted to escape my fear, but not being able to sell my house kind of forced me to live through it and run and and run with it and, like, understand what that what that was and really work through it and and and and heal myself from it. And so once that happened, I mean, my net worth skyrocketed. My level of fear that I usually had dissipated.
Speaker 2:It allowed me to, know, jump get out of the military when I after I did about 10 years in the military, get out of the military and go into the corporate world and really rock it, crush it in the corporate world. And then from there, I'm like, you know what? I was still kinda running my business on the side. I am confident now to, like, run it full time. So if I still had that level of fear, I think that panic attack and, like, it just hitting me in the face would have been revealed in a different situation in life.
Speaker 2:But I was forced to, like, really work through that instead of running away from it. So, so yeah. So that's when I realized, oh, there's so many things that are in our childhood that impact who we are as adults today, and money has so much to do with it. Yeah. And everything is being revealed, through money.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, you really gotta get comfortable with how you plan your finances. And I'll use me as an example. Like, I am very comfortable having cash on hands. Now, someone might tell you, or someone might tell me I should say, that, you know, that money should be in a Roth.
Speaker 1:That money should be in this. You should invest in that and have these kinds of portfolios. It's like, well, yes. But I I I have those portfolios that exist. But my trauma comes more from being unemployed.
Speaker 1:And I didn't have 6 months of savings or 9 months of savings. I just didn't have it because I was it was my 1st job out of college, so I wanna make sure I'm never in that position again. So having cash on hand is more important to me than, like, putting $5,000 in Nvidia or AMD or Amazon or stocks. Because I have I have other portfolios to back me up and having cash on hand, it's just it's it's psychologically safe. But to your point of con confronting your fears, I'm so glad you didn't sell that house because I think that would have been a bigger mistake and have given into your fears.
Speaker 1:And the site go ahead. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:No. I and I'm so glad I didn't because last year, I was able to sell that house for about 85% of 85% more than what I bought it for.
Speaker 1:Hell yeah.
Speaker 2:Right?
Speaker 1:Now it's
Speaker 2:And so so looking back, I'm like, okay. Like, looking forward, if I face any other fears or I'm hesitating on whatever I need to hesitate on, I'm gonna look back on my life and go, I did this 7 years ago. I overcame it, and here was the result of that. So I'm gonna do this, and I'm gonna live through the pain, and then I'm gonna I'm gonna rock it. Right?
Speaker 2:I'm gonna I'm gonna crush it. So learning from my past pain has allowed me to just give me a higher floor when it came to my confidence level so I could completely go out and crush it. Right? So for me, like, I got nothing holding me back now because I was able to tear down that wall. But as to your point, cash on hand, I I I see I see 2 things.
Speaker 2:So I see what your heart is saying and what your mind is saying. Sometimes your mind is saying math mathematically, this makes a lot more sense. Right. But what I believe is, yes, that's good. That's what I call the practical side of money.
Speaker 2:But the psychological side is something that you want because you want that peace in your life that you can't really explain. It's just like a level of or like like joy and contentment that nobody else could explain.
Speaker 1:It's it's comfort. It's it's it's it's comfort. It really is.
Speaker 2:And it and it doesn't really have much to do with how much money you have. You could have $5,000,000 in the bank and still feel like you're clawing at everything and, like, really unsettled.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So for me, understanding what your heart is saying and, like, getting that piece there and also making sure the numbers make sense, however that looks, And that puzzle piece is only the only something that you can put together Yeah.
Speaker 1:Not somebody else. And and it's called personal finance for a reason. Meaning, whatever works for you, works for you. And I'm not gonna work for someone else. But the personal issues also come with, you know, no one can really tell you how like, no one could have told you or really taught you how to overcome your trauma.
Speaker 1:Mental problems require mental solutions. Now someone could teach you practices on how to reach that. So that's what I'm gonna ask you. You you said, I just dealt with it. I looked in and I realized, you know, easier said than done.
Speaker 1:How did you what practices did you do? What techniques did you use? How did you find that in yourself to overcome this? And how do you teach something like that to others if you even teach that at all?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So like I said earlier, I focus more on the behavioral side. So identifying unhealthy patterns and behavior, with your money. Right? Now there's also a clinical side.
Speaker 2:So I strongly suggest and encourage people to go seek financial therapy or see a psychologist or a counselor to go really deep into some of the wounds that they have when it comes to their trauma. Right? But helping people identify what that is, I I believe can start with identifying unhealthy money patterns and behaviors through their spending. Right? So one way is to do it through their spending and then digging deep.
Speaker 2:And I like to use a concept of, like, the 5 whys method. So why did you buy that house? Why did you buy a house that is completely oversized? Like, you don't even need it. It's just you living there.
Speaker 2:Why'd you buy a house that has, like, 5 bedrooms? It's just you living there. Well, I bought it because I wanted to I I need a space for it. And so you keep digging deeper as to why that's happening. So, like, you get your first why, you get a response, and then your second why is based off of that response.
Speaker 2:Your third why is based off of that response. You tick you keep digging deeper and deeper and deeper, and it's usually a reason that you don't really wanna tell other people about. It could be identity issues. It could be, selfishness. It could be your it could be your desire for comfort, desire for control, desire for power, all these things that are the root reason as to why you behave the way you do at the top.
Speaker 2:Right? And so helping people understand that versus, oh, I, I just need to buy this because I need it, or why do you need to buy this $100,000 Ferrari? I mean, if you wanna buy it, great. But if you're, like, really trying to figure out and pinpoint, like, I'm in a lot of debt. Let's figure out why this is happening.
Speaker 2:I think looking at your spending and then digging deep is a really good way to go to.
Speaker 1:So when you're working with people, helping them understand their behaviors, the first step, create a budget, look at their budget. Where is their money going? Just lay out the land.
Speaker 2:No. So I I talk about psychology. It's more, it's more general. So talk talking about the brain, talking and giving people awareness that the behaviors they have today, the habits they have today are actually because of the culmination, the sum of all experiences in their life, but primarily in the first 7 years of your life. Cambridge University actually had a study, A bunch of behavioral scientists, they came together, did a study, and they determined that the first 7 by age 7, your money behaviors, and habits are set.
Speaker 2:Isn't that crazy? So by h 7 I
Speaker 1:don't know if I buy that. I mean, it's like so it doesn't doesn't pass the sniff test for me, because 7 I didn't understand money at 7. I don't have an allowance at 7. I didn't know anything about money at 7.
Speaker 2:It that doesn't matter.
Speaker 1:Okay. So how so x so break down this break down this study for me then.
Speaker 2:So it it's not like, hey. My dad didn't talk about money with me when I was 7, or it's not my dad said I should put my money in a savings account versus a Roth IRA. It is the underlying behavior that is being developed and formed by the age of 7 because you don't have kids right now, but whenever I say something, my kids will repeat it back to me. I'm they're like a mirror image of me. It's kinda scary.
Speaker 2:Right? So by the by the age of 7 or 8, it's the most formative years of your life, and you are a sponge. You're gonna be absorbing every single thing, and it doesn't have anything to do with money. I actually wrote about this recently.
Speaker 1:Client
Speaker 2:former client, wanted to was making $50,000 a year. She wanted to make more money. And, I said, how much money do you wanna make? She said, 75. I said, okay.
Speaker 2:1 out of a 100. She's like, can't do it. So why not? So we started digging deeper. The conversation took a while.
Speaker 2:And growing up, her dad would say stuff like, you can't get the A in the class. You can't make the varsity team. You can't get into the college that you want. So all those things, now those that those conversations she remembered from, you know, when she was older, but, like, all those things, the same tone was happening when she was much younger too. And so what did that do?
Speaker 2:That really depressed her level of confidence, self worth, and motivation for a lot of things in life. And that behavior can be seen in a lot of areas in her life because she's just very timid and hesitant and fearful and that same fear can be seen in money. So realizing, I don't know if I could make 50,000 or a $100,000. And even if she tried, it's like, okay. Well, maybe I could try to make it.
Speaker 2:And if I don't end up making it, then I just realized that my what my dad was telling me was true. Nothing to do with money by age 7. Yeah. But everything to do with money by age 7.
Speaker 1:Everything to do with money because like you said earlier, you know
Speaker 2:It's the it's the under it's the underlying behavior.
Speaker 1:Underlying behavior of literally everything revolves. Everything you do revolves around money.
Speaker 2:So they they talk about money scripts, and money script is great. Part of money scripts is like, oh, what kind of conversation did you guys have around the dinner table when it came to money? How did you see your mom spend money? How did you see your dad spend money? Did your mom and dad talk about money?
Speaker 2:Did your mom and dad fight about money? All those are important, but there's an underlying reason for all those things happening. It's not the money conversation. It's everything else. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So so me having gone through the pain in my own life just made me realize, oh, wow. This is this is not about money. It's about something much deeper. And that deeper rooted cause is what's leading to certain money patterns and behaviors in my life.
Speaker 1:So what what advice do you give to parents then? Because it's it's impossible to raise your kid without trauma. You know, I'm not a parent.
Speaker 2:In pot. It's it's impossible. Impossible.
Speaker 1:So how how do you mitigate the damage as best as possible? Because even you're with that woman. Right? Some people, this is more rare, I would assume, would take that criticism and go, you know what? I'm gonna succeed in spite of you.
Speaker 1:So it kinda has the opposite effect. Now does that happen often? No. Probably not. But it does happen.
Speaker 1:You know? Most successful people come from crazy childhoods. A lot of comedians come from broken families and adversity and trauma, and they use that as a tool.
Speaker 2:So professional athletes do that too.
Speaker 1:Professional athletes as well. Now I'm not saying go and traumatize your kid, but how do you how do you, like trauma's gonna happen, and how they react to trauma is one thing, but you don't wanna traumatize your kid. So how do you teach parents to avoid a situation like that where someone goes, you know, I wanna make $75,000 because I don't think I'm good enough. I I wanted to make $75,000 because I used to think it was enough. Now it's just like a $150,000 is the new $75,000 with inflation in the current market of environment.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And your definition is gonna be some different than somebody else's.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:But the underlying, like, motivation behind it is is could be the same. Right? There might be a lot of overlap. Now I don't teach parents how to do that. You know?
Speaker 2:Now I work with corporate America, and I I provide my resources to them so that way they could give it to their workforce and whatnot. Or All
Speaker 1:those workforces those people in the workforce are still parents.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yep. Absolutely. I don't I don't go 1 on 1, but it's more of a more of a general
Speaker 1:program that Let's let's let's let's let's talk the conversation then then. You work with companies. How do you help their workforce become more productive and engaged at work?
Speaker 2:So money stress is so 75% of American employees rank money stress as their number one stressor. And the 2 top contributing reasons as to why they're stressed is revolving credit card debt and inability to save. Think about that. Revolving credit card debt and inability to save are the two reasons as to why people rank money stress as their number one stressor.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Makes sense.
Speaker 2:But there's a there's a deeper reason as to why that's happening. Like, it it's not just because people are spending more than they make or it's not just because life is expensive. Yes. Life is expensive. But why are we continually being in debt, and why are we continually not being able to save?
Speaker 1:There's a deeper reason. The spending habits. Right? Yeah.
Speaker 2:There's a deeper reason.
Speaker 1:Throwing money at that problem isn't gonna fix the problem. Like, if you're making $50,000, you get promoted as $80,000, you don't fix the habits, guess what? Just gonna buy more expensive things and repeat those habits in more expensive ways.
Speaker 2:100%. Yep. Yeah. If you don't if you don't fix the root cause, your lifestyle inflation is gonna follows follow along.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:So so we provide, the, a program that focuses on the money psychology so people could actually go through it themselves, and also the the practical aspects of money, which is which is, understanding how to budget, knowing, you know, basic financial literacy. But the combination of the 2 are really important. So along with that, I come in and do workshops, speaking events, across the country and and try to try to do that as well.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Alright. Dave, excellent. I think I think you're doing great work. I'm very excited to see where the next step of your business takes you.
Speaker 1:Again, money psychology is something I could go in for hours and hours and hours and really breaking it down. I would love you to do a case study on me and see why I spend, how I spend. But personally, I think I think I don't spend too crazy. And maybe that's because of some traumas. I I think my trauma is more related outside the household personally, but it's a conversation for another day.
Speaker 1:So please, final final thing, just tell everyone where they can find you, your LinkedIn, your business, how someone can get in touch with you, the work with you. Any plugs, any and all, the floor is yours, my friend.
Speaker 2:Yep. So my LinkedIn, where I'm active very active on is, Dave Won, w o n, and my website is budget captain.c0. And, you could you could reach me from either of those avenues.
Speaker 1:Excellent. Alright, ladies and gentlemen. The big thank you to my guest, David Wan. That it con concludes this episode of the podcast, A Personally Oriented Discussion, sent it all around. It's like topics.
Speaker 1:If you wanna be interviewed by me as David was, go to willytproductions.com to find all the information on my services. I do this. I put you down in this pretty graphics package that can be edited and swapped in and out. Your graphics and designs can be put all over it. Dave and I had about a half hour, 45 minute conversation to go over the topics and discussions on this podcast.
Speaker 1:The questions were formed. Some of them are written down, some of them weren't. A lot of these were spontaneous on the spot conversation starters, and the podcast goes just like this. It's entertaining, informative, and discussion based. With me, your host, Will Tarashek, t as in Thomas, a r a s h u k.
Speaker 1:Find me. Email me at will@willytproductionsdot com. It's willyproductions.com. Dave, I own a mouthful. You gotta pack a set.
Speaker 1:It's a lot harder than you think it is. And, yeah, that concludes the end of podcast. I'll be back next time speaking to who knows? We'll see. But I'll see you there.
Speaker 1:Until then, y'all take care.