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The Making it in Melbourne podcast series brings you conversations with Melbourne migrant entrepreneurs who are reshaping our city’s business landscape.
In this series, we hear the stories of migrant startup founders sharing how their cultural backgrounds have shaped their entrepreneurial journeys, offering insights, lessons, and tips for aspiring entrepreneurs.
From creative and social innovations, artificial intelligence, mental health, and people changing careers, these are the stories of people who journeyed across borders to Melbourne, to build something extraordinary.
This podcast series is brought to you by the City of Melbourne. Follow us at @cityofmelbourne across Facebook, Instagram, Linkedin and X.
We support migrant business founders to incubate ideas in our city through grants, specialised programs and connecting with the local community. Find out about upcoming opportunities at www.melbourne.vic.gov.au/startups-and-innovation
women live their dreams. Listen to it wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Jeanette Chia, and this is Making It In Melbourne. I'm joined now by two very special guests who have come back all the way from season [00:47:00] one, Asami Koike from Shapes and Sounds, and Yifei Wang from AI Build. These two incredible founders have collaborated since season one, bringing Asami's expertise in mental health and Yifei's experience in AI to create an AI-powered robot that actually helps elderly people with their mental health and wellbeing.
It's a great story of how collaboration and respecting the diverse opinions of different parts of the economy can really create something special. This is how Yifei Wang and Asami Koike are collaborating to make it in Melbourne
I'm in the studio with Yi Fei and Asami, who were both amazing guests on season one of Making It In Melbourne, and we're here again. It's about a year later, and I heard a rumor that actually it was the very launch party of the Making It In Melbourne podcast where you two met for the first time. Yep. And now you're working together and collaborating, which is very cool.
Yeah. [00:48:00] Now, Asami, you're in mental health work, and Yi Fei, you work in AI, and this is not a natural feeling collaboration, but how did it actually come about, Asami?
Asami Koike: Sure. Um, you're right. We met at the launch. We said hello. We exchanged our contact details. And then fast-forward a few months even, um, I was working at Melbourne Uni part-time at the time.
Yi Fei's office is based there. We just bumped into each other. I was like, "Hey, you wanna have a coffee?" Um, and we set up a meeting. Yep. And we just caught up, spoke about our businesses- Just talking about ourselves, I would say That's
Jeanette Chia: right,
Asami Koike: yeah Um, and then lucky for me, a few weeks later, Yifei reached out to me and said, um, "I've got some interesting work that involves, um, mental health, so would you like to be involved?"
And I was like, "100% I'm in." Yeah.
Jeanette Chia: So good. Yifei, what actually drew you to working with Asami?
Yifei Wang: So actually, I do think, like, AI could basically, um, um, like a, like a magnifier that can helping all the other industries. [00:49:00] So AI is, uh, perfectly matching for all other sectors. So but particularly about mental health was because, uh, we do think, like, mental health is essential for, uh, basically everyone.
And, uh, um, also, uh, the, the reason why we connect with Asami is because, um, she have a very, um, uh, profounding, like, a backgrounds about mental health, and also she's already doing a lot of, uh, good, uh, projects and in- innovative projects around it. So that's the reason why, like, uh, I, uh, I would reach out to Asami, and I really appreciate this, the opportunity that, uh, for City of Melbourne to gathering us together and, yeah, to, to make this collaboration successful.
Yeah.
Jeanette Chia: I really like that because actually in both of your initial interviews last year, Yifei, you mentioned, "If you just make friends, the money will follow," and Asami, you shared your story about going on 100 different coffees with people as you s- were starting your business. So when you first had that coffee catch-up and you decided to work together, [00:50:00] was there a moment where you both realized there was a specific problem that needed the two of you together?
So Yifei, what was the, what was the particular problem that was identified that you're like, "This is something that only I can do with collaboration"?
Yifei Wang: Oh, I think probably I... Or that's actually basically, basically my business philos- philosophy, which is always collaborate together, connecting the people, connecting the right people with the right skill, right, uh, capability, and also with the right men- mindset.
So I ca- I can see, like, Asami having a very good entrepreneurial mindset, at the same time, very innovative, very ca- uh, capable about, like, uh, to do the, like, uh, mental health, especially about mental health. So, uh, when, uh, projects that we, we always trying to focus on is about, like, a, by using the tap sensor to capture the, uh, people, uh, elderly people's, like, um, body motions and movements to, by predict- predicting their, like, uh, uh, falls probability.
And, and then our in- the angel investor, like, uh, um, Fr- Grace, who [00:51:00] is having the nursing background, uh, come, come up to us and telling us, "Maybe not only just focusing, focus on the, uh, physical health but also about mental health because the loneliness is the most concerning issues for elderly people." So we think, "Okay, p- probably that's the reason why we need to focus more on the mental health, uh, and then to caring about elderly people."
So- Asami just- The, the, the name just pop up in my mind, and that's the- Yay ... definitely the person I should, uh, talk to. Yeah.
Jeanette Chia: Yeah. Amazing. So we're talking about recognizing an entrepreneurial mindset in each other, and then getting little hints and tips from advisors to say, "Maybe you should look in this space."
Yep. Now, Asami, you're a busy person. You've got lots going on with your own business. So what was in it for you to choose to work with Yufei?
Asami Koike: What was in it for me? So many things, really. Um, similarly, I really thought you were, like, an amazing entrepreneur and businessperson- Thank you ... right from the get-go.
I think literally one of the first things you said to me, I was like, "Wow, this person's so interesting." But for [00:52:00] me, I also think that it's really important to highlight that, um, the number one use for people using AI, it used to be about productivity and organizing emails and all that kind of stuff, but it's actually, um, a lot of people are using AI to care for their mental health.
They call it for therapy or for companionship. So I feel like it's really important that there's a lot of this cross-cultural collaboration going on to make sure that there is an evidence base that supports AI companions and A- AI therapeutic tools. Um, otherwise, we might find ourselves in a really difficult position in the future.
Jeanette Chia: It's a fascinating space, and I... You know, you definitely hear lots of stories about young people or, or you know, anyone just kind of having a, a ps- like a relationship with their AI tools. Yeah. I mean, I personally have created a bunch of different executive coaches And, uh, you know, v- veterinarian advice for my new puppy.
All sorts of things. And so I'm curious about how the collaboration's actually going now a year later, and what is it [00:53:00] specifically that you're working on together?
Yifei Wang: It's, it's a AI companion robots. Um, and, and, uh, the name is Emi, uh, like, uh, created by, uh, Asami. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Asami Koike: We really wanted a simple name that could be spoken cross-culturally.
Yeah. It does have a Japanese origin. Yep. Means beautiful blessing, but also can be written, uh, read in Mandarin as well- Mm-hmm ... with the same meaning. So lots of different- Oh,
Jeanette Chia: that's really special ... um,
Asami Koike: layers.
Jeanette Chia: So this is a, this is a companion robot named Emi. It is designed to support elderly people- Yep ... in their physical health and their mental health.
Yep. And I guess maybe, Asami, tell me, what's been the biggest learning curve for you over the last year entering this new space?
Asami Koike: Um, something that I've really thought about is, uh, how important it is to bring in the mental health perspective from the start. There have been quite a few high-profile cases over the last few years where AI has been used in ways that really cause harm, and now these big, big organizations are backtracking.
They're [00:54:00] hiring and bringing in clinicians to try and undo some of the damage that's been done. Whereas, Yifei, this project you invited me on, right from the start you identified, like, we actually need to design with... from a mental health perspective so that we're not causing harm and then working out how to backtrack later, but we're creating something that will connect people and that will connect people in with their caregivers and family members as well, in a really, um, structured manner, I would say.
Mm.
Jeanette Chia: I have to say, that's really inspiring to hear that, you know, there's a new generation of business leaders making those ethical decisions about tech from day one. And Yifei, have you had any experiences in the time working with Asami that have surprised you, or things that have, have changed the way you think about your business?
Yifei Wang: Oh, I think to- that's actually basically... Yeah, 'cause, uh, as you mentioned, like, o- uh, my background is about the technical side, and, uh, especially about AI stuff. And, uh, basically, my daily job is always facing to the computer, always talking to the machines, and how [00:55:00] to... letting them to perform well, and where Asami is always talking, uh, uh, to the, talk to people.
And, uh, so, so it's very different, like, uh, mindsets, uh, in terms of the, the, the, the business, in terms of the, the whole projects. So, uh, and also, I have n- basically very little knowledge around the, the, the medical innovations. So I, I, uh, I didn't actually realize a lot of, like, uh, uh, limitations and barrier to, uh...
and also some precautions to think about, like, uh, to creating, when creating the medical innovations. Mm. So really, Asami give us a lot of instructions and help, uh, helpful, like, uh, suggestions around the, the, the creations. Yeah, so yeah, this is the, the o- one of the main thing I learned from Asami. This
Jeanette Chia: is actually kind of that sort of diverse thinking in practice, right?
Yeah. We talk about- Mm ... uh, you know, the, the core people in a, in a startup team is the hustler, the hacker, the [00:56:00] humanist, and, and the hipster. You know, design- ... and then humanity, and then technology problem-solving. And you both bring different parts of that to the table. Um, Asami, when we spoke last year, you talked about leading from a place of support and care.
Mm. And how are you maintaining that human-first feeling of Shapes and Sounds- Mm-hmm ... when you're now, I guess, embedding it into a robot?
Asami Koike: Mm.
Jeanette Chia: So how are you bringing that support and care into the robot?
Asami Koike: Yeah. I always really think about, um- You know, people often question should we even be using AI in this way, in therapeutic ways, in companionship roles.
But I think the reality is that this is how people are engaging with technology. Mm. And how, um, people are looking to robots instead of other humans, and I think that that is a really, really important thing for everyone to be considering why that's happening. Uh, for me, I've always worked in that Asian mental health space, and if you think about who would [00:57:00] be turning to robots for therapeutic support, it's not the people that are readily going to therapy already.
It's a lot of the people that face a lot of access, uh, barriers to access or stigma, like the Asian community. So we need to design with that thinking in mind. And also, designing things, uh, like robots, in a way that connects people back into human connection as well.
Jeanette Chia: And you mentioned that the, the robot actually helps to kind of bring the community and the carers and the family back together with the data that's provided.
A- and Yifei, I'm curious, because your company has, uh, applied AI to supply chains and construction and, and a lot of other hard tech kind of things. So what was the biggest challenge for, I guess, the whole team at AI Build applying your technology expertise to human emotions- Mm ... and psychology?
Yifei Wang: Yeah, so this is actually always will be a, a, a very, like, um, [00:58:00] uh, headache things for us, especially, like, as Asami share, like, we are all technical people.
So that's the reason why really thinking about, like, um, um, to always talking to the, to, to the end user. Uh, like, uh, having a kind of a agile methodology, always, like, uh, having a very little, sh- uh, short, like a, like a two weeks, like, uh, springs, and always getting the feedback. So 'cause basically, we, we trying to ass- doing, uh, assumptions.
Like, what we, uh, our assumption is g- all wrong. So we, we only needs to, we, the only thing that can be corrected is from the end user and from the markets. And at the same time, al- always consult with Asami about, like, whether it's, uh, like, a human or emotionally, like, friendly. Yeah.
Jeanette Chia: Now, I've seen, I've seen some videos of the robot.
It is actually quite adorable. Um, and- Yeah ... I think it's really, um, it's a really interesting, I guess, method of using that kind of hardware to bring it physically into a space with elderly people. And Asami, you did mention, and you [00:59:00] mentioned just earlier, about this inaccessibility of mental health care, and in particular, the older generations in Asian communities- Mm
you know, having that stigma towards seeking it. Do you think that robots like Emi and, and hardware and, and tools like AI can really help to bridge that generational gap, or do you think there'll be resistance or complexity there?
Asami Koike: I guess it depends on each individual. But I think definitely, I think that the role that someone, someone or something like
Emmy- Someone. See, you're humanizing a robot. Right? Um, my little friend Emmy might be able to help with is especially places where there is a lack of physical human staff available. You know? So we're thinking about regional areas. Yeah. We're thinking about places like Japan, where there is a, a massive la- labor shortage, um, especially in regional areas there as well.
So then having a robot can be the, the tool that helps people to connect and call their family members. Um, there's things like data dashboards as well- Yeah ... that [01:00:00] help the family members to stay connected to the user as well. So I think that it plays a role, a stepping stone. It doesn't replace humans, of course, but we also need to think about where are there some key labor shortages.
Jeanette Chia: It's so fascinating that you almost, like, likened the physical presence of a robot to that of a telephone. Mm-hmm. You know, something that's in every single building, every home, everyone's got a phone to call, and maybe the robot is just another manifestation of that, um- Yeah ... with
Asami Koike: a layer of- Like a, like an extended version of that, right?
Jeanette Chia: Yeah, fascinating. Yifei, when we spoke last year, you reflected on being a younger entrepreneur and, and you had advice for your younger self was, which was to try to slow down everything. Mm. Because I think you've had such fast success and, and things are moving very quickly. How's actually working in the mental health space and exploring this area, has that actually forced you to put some more slow down in practice?
Oh. Have you felt it change the way that you think about your work?
Yifei Wang: Oh yeah, absolutely. Like, so, so everything evolves so very fast. [01:01:00] Basically you can see, like, a weekly you will see, uh, updates, uh, different version Chat- now is, uh, ChatGPT 4.5. Uh, sorry, sorry, 5.4. And, uh, so, um, so everything evolves very fast, but at the same time, we probably need to be, um, be very, like, a ca- trying to calm down and also thinking about really d- whether this is something, like, uh, stable enough for us, whether it needs to be, uh...
Maybe it might be too pushy for the, for the team members to learn everything. So, uh, at the same time, I sh- also, I start to thinking about not only just focusing on, um, uh, the, the, the, the mental health of the elderly people, but also I, I, uh, always reflect myself whether I should also focus on my team members' mental health.
This is something I trying to, uh, make the balance, so make the work-life balance, but at the same time, with their, like, uh, physical, uh, and also mental health, like, uh, uh, balance as well. So this is something I [01:02:00] learned through the, the whole projects and from Asami as well. Yeah.
Jeanette Chia: It's, it's so important as employers, um, you know, as we create jobs as entrepreneurs- Yeah
we do almost take on this responsibility for, for our team and their mental health. Yeah. So it's really fascinating to hear that evolving, um, with your experience. But I do wanna pick up on the fact that you mentioned the lightning speed in which AI is evolving, and there's no question that it is on an exponential curve.
There's also concerns that people have about how it's going to maybe spike anxiety. It's going to cause potential job losses, environmental damage, et cetera, et cetera. Um, how do we avoid harm, uh, when applying AI technology in such a sensitive space?
Yifei Wang: This is actually a very good questions. There is a lot of controversial, like, uh, talk around it.
But what I can see, there is a, a very, uh, popular, like, uh, words that I just quoting from some- someone, which is the A- uh, AI won't replace people's job, but all, but, [01:03:00] but will be replaced by those who harnessing the AI. So really, and also there, the, the, the latest term, which is not only just using AI or adopting AI, uh, the, the, the new popular words is about harnessing.
Mm-hmm. Harness- harnessing the engineering, you, uh, harnessing the AI. So really we know the capability of the AI, but at the same time, we really need to thinking about the cybersecurity, how to c- how to protecting our datas, how to also really, um, uh, constraint the, the AI capabilities rather than just like, uh, uh, use it, uh, like, uh, as, as you wish.
Mm. So this is something we, we are also thinking about. Yeah.
Jeanette Chia: Because the word harness the AI, it's got a couple of different meanings. One is that you can direct something, and then you can also, I guess, control it to some extent. Yeah. Um, and I've actually heard from people that are getting really into the vibe coding sort of area- Yeah
that they have to manage their sleep because they actually get addicted- Yeah ... to the vibe coding element. And, and Asami, this is something that you're obviously passionate about, making sure that technology is done [01:04:00] through that lens of, of do no harm. Mm. So, so tell me how, what this means to you, I guess, when you hear all these concerns that people might have.
What is it that you're actually excited about in terms of the-
Asami Koike: Mm ...
Jeanette Chia: you know, the level up and the-
Asami Koike: Yeah ...
Jeanette Chia: the potential?
Asami Koike: I'm excited by things like this cross-sector collaboration. I think that there are incredible technologists around, there are incredible clinicians around, and oftentimes we don't talk to each other.
We're often preaching to the choir. So when we can cross that boundary and actually connect and collaborate, um, I think that we will see better and better solutions coming to the forefront. Right now, I think that we're kind of all working in silos. So for me, when I see an interesting AI kind of therapeutic support thing, I can see all the problems.
But if we could just start from collaboration, then maybe we would be solving some of these problems.
Jeanette Chia: And once again, it is really about making sure that those conversations are happening early, and as you said, Yifei, opening [01:05:00] yourself up to collaborations from the start- Yep ... which, uh, can make all the difference.
I do wanna move now to, I guess, the people that are actually being benefited from your new project. And we wanna talk about the, the migrant community, the Asian communities. Osamu, you're from Japan. Yifei, you're from China. To what degree is this, uh, new robot, and Emmy, targeted at migrants and, and the needs that they might specifically have?
Yifei Wang: Well, I think maybe I, I'll go first. Mm-hmm. And, uh, probably there is a s- some scenarios that I can, uh, I can, like, uh, think of. The first one is about, uh, especially about, uh, the, the first generation of, uh, uh, uh, migrants, and also their parents, their families. When they are also coming here, maybe they, they won't be able to speak English very flu- uh, like, uh, fluently.
At the same time, like, uh, the robotics, actually what, what we are trying to do at the very beginning is it can be speaking multi-language. And so in that case, [01:06:00] especially people who are in their, like, uh, older age, like, they would prefer to speak, like, uh, like their mother tongues, like, uh, uh, especially in the, uh, their own house.
So this is something we're trying to, uh, letting the robotics be able to speak in their own home language, and sometimes even their dialect.
Asami Koike: Mm.
Yifei Wang: And to make them really having a kind of like a self belonging, uh, having, uh, uh, a real true- truly friends who can really understand them, talking to them, like, without any kind of difficulties.
Jeanette Chia: Yeah, those are excellent use cases, and particularly the, the language piece and, and helping to kind of close that accessibility gap for- Yeah ... for support. And I understand that it's also got a camera that checks out the physicality of the- Mm-hmm ... the person- Yeah ... to see if they're a fall risk- Yeah ... or something like that.
So just, just an incredible piece of technology. I, I have to ask from a business perspective, as an entrepreneur. Was there a customer need that you were building this for initially, or did you decide to kind of build the product and then find the [01:07:00] market fit? I'm curious about the business side and the decision-making of, of building Emmy.
Right.
Yifei Wang: I, uh, this is something... Actually, there is a, a, quite a lot of, um, uh, robotics, uh, y- especially about AI companion robots, um, uh, around the market. So we, we... So apparently, we also doing a bit of, about the market research. Currently, we having a long list of the waiting list for trying, trying to, uh, uh, like, uh, trialing our, our, our robotics.
So, so, uh, which can show us a very good, like, uh, product market fit. So at, at the same time, we just trying to, uh, dist- distinguish our robots with other, like, uh, uh, similar products. Actually, we having Asami, who's a professional and, uh, expert in the mental health, to really, to do a lot of, like, um, medical levels, uh, medical grades about assessments, about the mental health.
Mm. So yeah, this is something we will be totally different here.
Jeanette Chia: Mm-hmm. So you found this trend that you were... that was [01:08:00] happening with companion robots- Yeah ... and then you looked for the market differentiation- Yeah ... like the niche. Yeah. And you found your secret weapon in Asami- Yeah ... um, to bring the clinician- That's right
piece to, to the front. Now, I have to say, as a clinician- Mm ... and as an individual who, you were quite open with us last time about your own mental health burnout before starting Shapes & Sounds. Mm. How are you observing people using AI for their own mental health, and what's working for you personally? Is there anything that you've noticed- Mm
in terms of the tools or the practices?
Asami Koike: I think in terms of how others are using it, I feel like I'm really in that exploratory phase of trying to work out who is using and why are they using and how as well. Like, every time I speak to someone, I learn something new, so I'm still in that phase where I'm gathering so much information.
And I would say it's alarming how many people use AI in ways that support their mental and their emotional wellbeing. So I think it, it's just so crucial that clinicians are aware of [01:09:00] how their clients may be using AI as well, and making sure that's part of their clinical formulation even, um, as an assessment tool to be like, "Do you talk to AI?
What do you ask AI?"
Jeanette Chia: Mm.
Asami Koike: Um, I think we're, we're all still in that very unknown phase.
Jeanette Chia: It's, it's very early days, and I think it, it... because it is now becoming so much easier to use, and it's gonna be fascinating to see- Mm ... what evolves from this space soon, and I think it is so important, as you say, for clinicians to kind of treat it as another arrow to their bow, so to speak.
Yeah. So you both have chosen Melbourne as your home. How have you found living, working, building in Melbourne, uh, accelerate the development of Emmy? Has there been some particular tools, environments, or, or support that you've, that you've unlocked living in Melbourne?
Asami Koike: The first thing that I think about is the proximity- Mm-hmm
to be honest. Like, we're in probably like a 500-meter radius of one another- Yeah ... and being able to bump into people is how this project started as well. So maybe, and even how, like, we're in a similar [01:10:00] space as well, so being able to be close to other founders and connected, and being in these hubs that the city of Melbourne especially have set up as well, where lots of startups exist, I think that's really important.
Yep. That human-to-human contact, which we're kind of coming full circle, aren't we? Yeah. We
Jeanette Chia: certainly are.
Yifei Wang: Yeah.
Jeanette Chia: Well observed. Um, and what about yourself?
Asami Koike: Yeah.
Jeanette Chia: Has, has
Asami Koike: something new?
Yifei Wang: Yeah. Yeah, I actually totally agree. I would like to echo, like, what, uh, Asami has mentioned. So that really reminds me about, like, a overall, like, when we meet, like, in the, in the city, which is in the Melbourne Connect building, the latest, like, uh, building that organized by Melbourne Uni.
So basically, we having a lot of support from Melbourne Connect, and also there are... It, it's just like, uh, Melbourne is a very vibrant and tech- tech- tech savvy is, like, a city, which really, um, uh, actually encourages the innovations, the, the startup entrepreneurial mindset as well. So we... Melbourne Connect, which is, like, always trying to connecting everyone, uh, [01:11:00] those who are like-minded people to coming together, finding some, like, innovative projects to work on.
So, and also, we're getting a lot of support from the Launch Vic, and also, uh, even from the federal government, the Commonwealth. So, so yeah, we can see Melbourne is really, um, yeah, the best place for me, like, uh, to really, um, keep going on my j- uh, like, entrepreneurial journey. Yeah.
Jeanette Chia: It's the... It's got talent, it's got the proximity, it's got the technology, um, and some support.
Love that. Now, my last question, um, looking to the future, so I, I'm imagining a future where there's, there's Emmys in every home and, and maybe they're supporting us in various ways. What's next for you both and for this collaboration? How do you see this evolving in the next few years? Maybe Asami, I'll start with you.
Asami Koike: Uh, well, we still have a long way more to go with Emmy, so I'm looking forward to continuing working with you. But I think we have a few other project ideas up- Yeah ... our sleeve as well, which hand ball to you.
Yifei Wang: Yeah. Yeah, okay. Sure. So a- actually, yeah, th- this is something I would like to [01:12:00] review to everyone, which is also we are already considering about the second projects that we are working on, which is around, also ar- around the medical and also AI, but it's more focusing on not about the, just the mental health with the, uh, people who living independently, but also we are more focusing on their, like, uh, sleep qualities as well.
Uh, so probably we are more focusing... We're trying to find the, the relationship, uh, about between the, their stress and also their sleep quality. So this is something we are currently working on, and, uh, I think probably that one is, uh, actually the projects is already been very popular around this, uh, the Asia market, b- but, but we're trying to adapt these kind of, uh, good concept into Australian market, 'cause, yeah, I can see, like, every Australian is also focused on the sleep quality, right?
Yeah.
Jeanette Chia: Yeah. Sleep, wellbeing, such a big, big macro trend. Um, AI is a incredible macro trend and, and obviously taking care of our mental health, something that is just core to [01:13:00] every entrepreneur's journey and, and everyone's journey. So, uh, Yifei and Asami, thank you so much for coming back into the studio, sharing your journey of collaboration, um, and also getting us really excited about what could be possible when, when we bring good minds together.
So it's been a pleasure, and thank you very much.
Yifei Wang: Thank you.
Jeanette Chia: Thank you. Thank you
Yifei Wang: very much. Thanks for having
Jeanette Chia: us.
Yifei Wang: Thank you for having, having us.
Jeanette Chia: That was Asami Koike from Shapes and Sounds and Yifei Wang from AI Build. Just a great story of collaboration, and I personally cannot wait until the, uh, robot revolution is helping households and people all over the world, and I think with those two in charge, it'll be done ethically and with great technology.
This season of Making It in Melbourne has been a real treat. Some great personal reflections, and I'm once again blown away by the diversity of the kinds of people that come to Melbourne and also choose to build businesses because they feel that they've got something they want to build and a legacy that they want to [01:14:00] leave.
And once again, I'm struck at how the migrant journey and the entrepreneurial journey share so many similarities: navigating risks, finding new networks. It's something that we can all relate to. So thank you to all of my guests, and thank you for listening to Making It in Melbourne. Thanks to our producers Megan Cockcroft, Tito Ambio, and Janek Rogers.
Technical production by James Gormley and Nico Rossi at RMIT University. Making It In Melbourne is brought to you by the City of Melbourne.