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This week, Jay chats with his friend JT Frank, the founder of Consequence of Habit and the host of the eponymous podcast.
Discussing issues of Mental Health, Substance Misuse and Recovery, and Drug Use & Policy with host Jay Shifman, Speaker, Storyteller, and Advocate.
Each week Jay chats with interesting guests as they seek to destroy stigma and advocate for honest, educational conversations that motivate positive change.
You can learn more at https://jay.campsite.bio/.
Choose Your Struggle has been streamed in over thirty-five countries and is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever else you get your podcasts.
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***Transcripts are not edited for clarity.
You are listening to the, choose your struggle podcast, a member of the shameless podcast network. Hello, and welcome to the choose your struggled podcast. I'm your host, Jay Schiffman, on this show, I interview people with lived and learned experiences on the subject of mental health, substance misuse, and recovery and drug use and policy.
But occasionally we talk about other topics as well. This week I interviewed JT. The founder of consequence of habit, but first kid mental let's go.
some battles. The yesterday.
hello and welcome to the choose your struggle podcast. It's great to be back with you all. This week you're in for a really touching conversation. I'll say that, but first, last couple of weeks. So number one, uh, thank you to everybody who keeps reaching out about made it. Obviously I'm going to keep talking about this because, you know, I mean, it was such a labor of love.
As I record this, it is fun. It is out of the top 200 for the first time, since it was created, uh, it's two week run is over, which is pretty cool. Um, because you know, the, the usual way that stuff works is that it builds over time. And so to have it jump up there immediately, um, is, is very cool, uh, and, and very rewarding.
And I'm sure it will be back. I have no doubts. Um, as the other advertising I'm doing down the line and, and the word keeps getting out and it's just, it's been steady. It's been very steady, um, which is rewarding. Uh, you know, you know, I'm not one to look at the stats and I could not tell you right now what the stats say it's listenership is, but.
Continue to be listened to, uh, by the, the, the, the variables that I'm judging. Right. I mean, reviews have rolled in, which is awesome. Um, for those of you who have not, and I've thought about leaving a review, please do. So I see those and it really means a lot to me. So thank you. Um, and not just on apple either, you know, uh, check the show notes, there's a review link there, uh, and, and you can review in other places as well.
Oh. And speaking of reviews, kind of in a sense, Uh, you know, my, my great friend or a great product, great pods, uh, uh, asked me while we were together at the podcast of illusion conference in LA back in March to start doing some reviews for him. Uh, as a guy who loves podcasts is a guy with a background in writing and, and, um, I said yes, I thought about it was like, that's a cool idea.
So I've been doing those, uh, you can check my personal website, Jay schiffman.com or go to gray pods. And you'll see some of my reviews there. Shout out to John corrals of the lockdown Celtics podcast for tweeting out my review of his show. Uh, so, so check those out. If you are a podcast host at once your show reviewed, hit me up.
Happy to take a look at it, put it in the queue. Um, anyway, he keep checking out, made it really pretty. Last week, uh, you know, shout out to Peter for sharing the show, of course, and everybody who reached out and thought that their show was really interesting, a special shout out to Kyle blanks. My good friend in, in the, the, uh, fellow host here on the, on the, um, GMOs podcast network and almost said locked on podcast network.
That would be awesome if I had a show, although I am not qualified as a giant Celtics fan, I am so appreciative of guys like John corrals, because I learned from him, I would not be qualified to talk about basketball. Uh, but shout out to Kyle blanks, fellow host here on the shameless podcast network for reaching out and talking about what he enjoyed about that, that, that conversation, um, always appreciate his thoughts and yours too.
Uh, you know, definitely keep reaching out. I always love it. Uh, that that offer about using pot inbox is still good. Uh, if you leave something that ends up being played on the show, you will get a, um, Uh, swag pack from teacher struggle. Also speaking of swag pack, shout out to Georgie from made it, um, she was the first person to correctly identify or to tell me that they have the answers to, to, to the, the made it quiz of where all of the.
Uh, the, the, the things that were in the theme song, but clips that were in the theme song came from, uh, I will clarify something that she pointed out kind of inadvertently Sarah does not count when she says you want me to tell you the truth or whatever the actual word is. That is not part of the theme.
The theme starts after she says that. And so Georgia was saying that she couldn't find that part. And I told her I'm so sorry that doesn't, that was my fault. I did not make that clear. So if you are still trying to participate in the, made it giveaway, and that's the thing holding you up, that's on me. Uh, just because Georgie has told me she has the answer.
It doesn't mean if you also have them, you won't get the prize. So reach out through the website, either Jay Schiffman or choose your struggle and let me know where all of those snips were from and you will get a choose your struggles. Well, All right. This week show, we have a special guest and, and, and I mean that, because he's, he's a, he's a friend.
Um, he's a guy that I admire a lot. Uh, you'll hear us talk about this on the show, but when I met JT, Frank, who's who you all should remember? I played my conversation on his podcast as a special episode on this show last year. When I met him, uh, I was apprehensive. Um, you know, he is, he, his background and mine are very different.
Um, in, in he, you know, he served, he, he has been a first responder, um, or, uh, I don't know if he would identify with first responder, but he has been a law enforcement official. Uh, and those are things that I am apprehensive about. Um, And that was my own prejudice because when we, we, we had a wonderful conversation for his show, so good that I put it out on, on, on this one.
Uh, and then we have since hung out a couple of times since I moved to Philly, cause he lives near. And he's just a good dude. He is one of the better human beings that I know. Um, I'm very appreciative of our friendship of, of everything I've learned from him of our conversations. We always have a really good conversation when we hang out and that the work he's doing, uh, you hear him talk about this?
And I shouted out on the, the interview, but, uh, he, he has started a 5 0 1 C3 and I have donated, so, um, definitely a shot. To JT, Frank, for all that he does and for his friendship. All right. I think that's it. Without further ado, please enjoy this wonderful conversation with my friend, the founder of consequence of habit, the podcast, as well as the 5 0 1 C3 JT.
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If you're listening on apple, you can leave a review right on your player for everybody else. Check out the link in the show notes. Welcome back to the choose your struggle podcast. It's great to be back with you all. We are chugging along here in season three, and this is the first time we'll have a guest this year that I actually call a friend.
This is a person that, um, is not somebody who, who I, I sort of admired her from afar. Uh, he is a guy actually, whose voice you will recognize because I dropped a conversation that we had on his. As a special episode last year. And the joke between us is that, and this wasn't a joke. This was real. I told him I was scared to interview him.
I admired his work. I do admire the work, uh, and full disclosure. I say this now. So we don't do it later. He did start a nonprofit and I am a donor. So putting that out there. I don't know how to talk about military service. I don't know how to talk about, uh, law enforcement accepted, obviously my opinions on a much grander scale than a person to person conversation.
And I told him that and in the nicest way possible, because he is one of the nicest people. I know he told me to stop my wine in and just do it. So, uh, here we are. Finally what the one, the only JT Frank dude. Good to, good to have. Yeah, I'm stoked to be here and you and I, those are, those are really kind words.
And I do appreciate you saying that because there's only been a couple of people that have come on the podcast that I've sat down, actually had a meal with after the fact and someone I texted on a regular basis. Uh, so I appreciate you saying that and I appreciate the support, man. I'm happy to be here.
You know, that's funny you say that. Cause the most important thing I have to say about JT, which is something after my own heart, he appreciates a good diner meal and that is an art that is going away in this country. Uh, th the, the love of a good solid diner. And I do love that about, oh man, I enjoy, I enjoy, I had a nice diner experience this morning.
That effect I'm jealous. Uh, yes, JT and I have had multiple meals together. We meet at diners because they are. One of the backbones of this country. Uh, but JT is also a guy in recovery and he is a guy with a really interesting story. I actually have said this to him that when I met him, I was like, when I knew his, a little bit about his story, I was like, there is no way that this guy and I have anything in common, we have the most diverse, separate backgrounds, you know, and it turns out, uh, that we have a lot in common and it really dispelled some of my myths.
JT. Where do you want to start the conversation with your story? Well, I, I let's, let's, let's go off of what you said. Let's talk about the, um, some of the similarities. Cause I, I think one of the things that we found either through our conversations is that, and so we have these really different background.
Um, but at the end of the day, when it comes to, when we start talking about substance misuse, uh there's there's words that, that commonality. And I think there's a lot of people that that can go, Hey, that's not me. That's not me. That's not me. And that might not be for a lot of reasons, but if it comes down to you share this one thing, that's a massive thing in your life.
And I think that's where the connection is. Yeah. I, I completely agree. And it is what made us connect obviously for your show in the first place and, and since offline. Um, but for your own. Uh, uh, let's say it, let's say with your own story of your struggle with misuse, does it start when you were serving or did it start before.
No, I, I there's times I've blamed it on that, but I grew up around it, you know, maybe like that was a way I could as well. That's where I learned to deal with. That's a bunch of bullshit. I, I grew up around a man, like for me, alcohol wasn't a drug thing. It was an alcohol thing that was in my family. It was in my life on a regular basis.
And that's, that's what I thought adulting was. That's how I thought, like, that's how he was. So he did that. Uh, it could be just an, any Tuesday or it could be a birthday, a funeral. It could be anything that's just, that was ingrained in the daily aspects of my life. And what I saw, um, my, my own drinking started in high school.
Uh, and you know, that was. It was, I mean, that was a kid partying. Right. You look back and you look at these things, it was just innocence. You have no idea that the repercussions and the damage, you know, by each 40 that this can kind of re on someone's life. But, um, no. Yeah, I, I. Going into the military. I surround myself with who drank, like I did while I was in the military.
And I continue to do that when I got out. You like a lot of people who struggled with, with substance or with drinking, especially, do you have a moment where you remember like, oh, this is it, this is what makes me feel better? Or was it like, you were kind of just saying it was just always there. No, I do.
It's funny you ask that. Cause I was, I was in a bar. I was in Australia's Berg or Eastern Ellsberg, Pennsylvania, which isn't too far from where you are right now. It's about, I don't know, hour and a half from you. And I had to be, I was young. I was really young and I had a couple beers and I just remember like, just this feeling of not giving a fuck about anything.
And she was like, I really like what I'm feeling right now. Um, so I bet those are the first times that kind of stood out and then. And then if that's what you're chasing, right. For the rest, from that point on, you're kind of chasing that. And he goes, listen, I don't want to be textbook like some 12 step, but at some point it stops being fun.
That's that is such a commonality with people who struggle that they sort of, they realize, oh, this is a way that I can feel things to this thing. And then you went into a situation where, where I don't think anyone faults you on the outside for drinking too much. And that is when you served. Was that a part of it?
I mean, was, it was, I guess my question is, was it even that conscious or were you by then just so subconsciously, I need this to, to mute out from this situation I'm in serving in the armed forces? No, I mean, I want to be clear for what I saw in the military was not even the same or close to what the men and women like post nine 11, would that say.
The, the military culture embraces, uh, the drinking, you know, they always have, um, just a lot, like I was talking about before that's that was ingrained into your culture. That's how you celebrated that. So your mourned, that's how you showed masculinity. It's just how you that's, how you operated. Um, you know, it was, it was certainly looked down upon.
If you did, which was perfect for me, because that was never going to be an issue, right. That was never going to be a problem. Uh, so it was, I can't say it was from dealing with the trauma. Um, what would that said, there's a lot of people that have seen. Some horrific things. And I would say that it is expected behavior to try and escape from those things.
Um, you know, we've been at war for 22 years and the way things are, are heading in during our conversation right now, that looks like that's going to be extended. So you have a conscious memory of, of thinking that yourself, like I saw something or, or I experienced this thing and I want to forget this thing.
Where's my drink. That, that was a subconscious part. No, I do remember. I'm finding that after a period of time, I don't like sitting in my own head without some tea, something to NAMI or forget enough things. And that, that became like a, like, uh, I don't know, my, my little comfort blanket and if I didn't have it that I knew I wasn't comfortable.
Um, so there wasn't one specific thing. Now, everyone, like I've had my. Oh life experiences. Right. And that's not always rosy. Uh, and I can go back and, and, you know, talk about things, hard things have gone through, but, but at the end of the day, um, it, there wasn't, there's not this one thing that like is like a recurrent dream I was trying to get away with from, it was just reality.
I was trying to temporarily escape cause I just didn't. Ah, it's not my, I still suffer with, right. I mean, that's not that doesn't just go away. Um, you know, I, I am ADHD in, in, you know, they've said like that a lot of times those which you are too, right. Um, our, our dopamine levels are a little bit lower too, so that's, there was always behavior.
If it wasn't drinking it's it was always something I was trying to do to, to, to feel good, you know, a big part of my story and you're right. I also have ADHD and a whole host of other stuff, but a big part of my story is that I was, uh, inadvertently taught that the way to deal with not liking how I felt was substances.
And for me it was pills. If you had had access, forget the stigma for a second, not just in, in when you're serving, which I know can be. A lot, but just in the general public around therapy, if you had had access to someone who had been like let's work through this stuff, do you think that would have made a difference in your story?
Or were you already on this path by the time that would have helped? I know it's, this is the fact that we're having this conversation. I was living, I was having this conversation with my therapist this morning, literally because th the whole ADHD thing is something I've really dived into in the past, probably.
A couple of weeks now, I I'm medicated for it. I've I've I haven't really figured stuff out with it or, or, or connected it to my own actions. And I said today, the more I look at it, the more things make sense. The more I'm wish that this had kind of this process had started a long time ago. Uh, so I like to think that I would have been open to it, but, but then again, I was afraid.
I had to figure it out. At least I thought I did so, so I very well may not have, um, but retrospect, I do wish I'd started this process a long, long time ago. I appreciate you pointing out that you like, all of us are a lot of us when we were younger are sure that we understand how exactly how life goes.
Do you remember ever having a moment of going, oh man, like this substance use and by the time misuse may be getting out of control. Yeah, this is the ironic thing about being in the military. So I'm still working out the time. I would just work out a time and they get really drunk at night and then start that process over.
And I used to pride myself on that ability. That's what the military does. Like if you can show up, hung over and then do certain things, uh, that, I mean, you want that, that builds street credit, right? Cause you can suffer through that. Um, but I do remember my roommate knew like saying, Hey, Hey, we're not going to drink for the next.
And at that time, I mean, that seems like, I mean, I'm not going to say I'm going to climb Everest right now. And I failed every time. I mean, I failed every single time and that was the part where I started going. All right, this thing's got its grips in me. Um, but I'll stop when I hit. Right. And you're like, that was always these milestones or when I get out in the military, I can't, I can't party like this.
Well that actually all the worse I got in the military, because now my identity was gone. Like this thing I'd wrap myself up and I was left. Uh, all the only ones left. It was, was the bad habits. Like the people I used to hang out with and push me, like I wasn't showing up for PT. I was just the drunk, drunk part that was still there.
Um, so, so yeah, that was probably, it was probably that point where I found myself going. Um, I'm starting to become this thing. I didn't want to become, because every kid grows up. Not every kid, if you're, if you're lucky enough, you grow up and you say, I want to be just like my parents, um, that wasn't me.
And I found myself starting to fall into these, these same kind of groups that, that afflicted, the, the ones who came before me. How old were you when you left? 20 25, 26. And did you immediately become a law enforcement first responder or was there a gap? No, no, we, uh, I was living on California and I stayed out there cause I had it all figured out.
Right. And, uh, I had these grand plans that was going to do things I was, and it turned out I ended up working construction. Um, I caught my last year. I was pretty much homeless. I would stay like someone's couch for a couple of months. Um, was running my own. I can't even, I can't even say that I'm a straight face.
I was not running my own business. I was running a semi illegal landscaping sham and, and, uh, uh, so, so long. No. I stayed there for about a year, year and a half. And then I came, I came home and, uh, you know, I surround myself with just really shitty people out west. Uh, cause I was struggling. I was hurting.
Like I was miserable. I didn't know what to do with myself and I, and you know, I just started clinging on to people where people saw me and saw it as like a target almost right. And I was just getting wrapped up in the wrong stuff and uh, I flew home for a wedding. So we paid for my ticket, flew to Annapolis, Maryland, and I was around good people.
I was around, I was wearing people that they care for me that were like, they love me. They showed it. Like, they just showed me like what it, what it meant and you love them and they want the best for it. Right. And I, I, I flew back to California. And I sold, I sold everything. I owned to like pawn shops. For the most part, I had somebody owed me miles.
I was knocking at the door at four in the morning, getting, getting, making sure I got money and all my stuff, it fit into a Jeep Wrangler. And I drove across the country, um, which was my vision quest. Cause I ended up getting really sick one of the way, it just turned into a fucking nightmare. Um, but it was the best thing, you know, who's a couple of times in my life where, I mean really.
Rash decisions. Like I can't, I've come to a fork in my life. It's like Robert Bradley, you know, you like, you're at the you're at the crossroads. You can make a deal with the devil or you're going to, you're going to go the other way. And it was like right at the last second, um, Isaiah, where if I zagged, um, who knows.
Right. And, and I drove across the country and, uh, uh, I work construction on here on the east coast a and then got a job as a forest ranger, which was awesome. I can imagine that that doesn't lend itself to trying to beat sober. So you weren't at that time? No, no, no, no. Um, no, the answer is absolutely. No, I, I, I was not sober at the time at all.
I was, um, Again, it's a law enforcement career, right. So, you know, it's, it's a, it's a forest ranger and there's a lot of guys that are like Philly cops or they put some talk. No, but at the same time it was still, I still carried a gun. It was still in the culture. I still did these things. So, um, no, it did not.
And. Ever put any of my problems that I, and I had a long list of them, never once. Did I truly make that connection? That it's, that this is what's coming from. When, when you look back now as a guy, who's a lot healthier just from knowing you w when does, when does that ship start to turn? And when do you actually look back and say, yeah, that's when I got into recovery.
Oh man. That's, that's tricky, I guess. I can say for a couple years, and I've said this I'm when I show it, you know, we have this idea of who we are. Right. And as for me, like, you know, I was, I'm married, you know, it's not. It's not conducive to a super healthy marriage. You know, when your wife doesn't drink and if your wife does drink, it's probably even worse.
Um, so I was, you know, like that was not great. Yeah. I've got kids, so I'm a, you know, I'm a father and they look up to you and we go back to like learning what parenting is. And I felt this overwhelming guilt. Um, for, for showing them exactly what it means to be a grownup and what that includes and what that includes for me is, uh, drinking every day, you know, and I can hide it.
I'd hide it with craft beer and. I keep, I can't say good wine, but drinking wine while I'm making dinner. And I, you know, I, I could package it as a way, like, I don't have a problem, you know, who was wrong drinks, really good bourbon. Um, nevermind the fact that I drank it, like it costs $10, like, but so in my mind, as long as I could do that, it was okay, but I knew deep down it was compromising me and I was a slave to it.
Like we couldn't go out to dinner someplace if it was. You know, if somebody said, what stomach cracker barrel or someplace on like the, they don't boost, like, why aren't we, why would we stop someplace that doesn't have a drink? Um, or if we went to somewhere to a hotel to spend the night for a kids thing, and if there wasn't.
No, I had to, I had to bring something like I wasn't, you know, so I, I knew that I was a slave to it. I'm like, I hated that feeling. I hate the feeling of, you know, like my kids saying smelled like hops or beer or your lips were purple or, um, just. It just brings shame, man. That's such, that's such a wonderful point that I, I, I, I have to ask, have you talked about this with them?
Do they understand the power that your love for them played into you getting healthy? Yeah, it was one of the it's. So I had this conversation, um, it started with my oldest, uh, cause he started going to meetings and they're like, when you going to a meeting in clock at night and uh, She was, yeah, she was in college, I guess.
So, yeah, there came a point where I think one was powerful. Things you could do is have those conversations, you know? Cause even if you parent your kids do look up to you, um, There's power in vulnerability. And if you trade this thing that never has issues and never has problems, then they feel like that's what the, what their life is going to be like, or it should be like, um, so no, there's, I think there's been a lot of power in that.
I mean, it's a really tough conversation to have because you're really putting something out there. Like how do I, how explain that and then go back, which a lot of people do, right. Uh, you know, as not telling you anything in your listeners, they don't know, but, but shame is, is overwhelming. Just. Fucking terrible thing that goes along with this.
So to tell these kids that look up to me, Hey, I'm going to stop doing this. That's why I'm going to this. And then for that to go back would have been a tough pill to swallow. And just like a lot of people I woke up on a regular basis in tears, like dreaming about going back, you know, and you have those dreams.
Um, so yeah, my kids are fully aware of it. Um, they know. They know everything about it. I still drink non-alcoholic beer. Um, I had the conversations, my, you know, my son's ADHD. So we have these conversations about things like dopamine and chasing what feels good. And, and, you know, if it's, if it's something that makes you feel good, short-term is a good chance.
It's a Trojan horse for, for a long-term pain. Um, so I think those are important. Confirm for me, that was important conversation. Yeah. But it took a little time. Would it be fair to say and sort of last point on this, but would it be fair to say that you are trying now to do for, with your kids, what you didn't have, you know, the T to, to use that lack of the example to, to help them and to turn that around and stop the trauma and at this generation, as we, as we like to say, yeah, it's a massive part of it.
I've questioned myself, whether I would have had it in me to do it without them, you know, just be enough. Um, but I don't know, honestly, I don't know if for me it was a big part of it, but like, there's one thing that's screwed up your own life. It's like now, I'm infecting them with, with malware and spam and stuff.
That's just going to be F on their operating system from here on now, as well. Last question, before we take a break, you are a guide that I think, and you've already touched on this for yourself is the epitome of masculinity in this country. You serve, you continue to be in law enforcement, you know, as you said, you used to drink and work out like that was your life.
How big is changing that narrative, a part of this story for you. Yeah, it was huge. It was huge. I mean, I started, you know, I went to first time I ever went to a room and uh, sat down and I looked around and I said, there is nobody in this room. Like me, no way. Um, And then I realized no, there is every single person in this room is just like me.
And I got this thing that they can't stop. And that made me question a lot of things and it brought a sense of empathy over time. And this was not like instantaneous, um, towards people in general. And because I can look at my own actions now, when I start connecting him to my alcohol misuse to an ADHD and.
Oh, that's, that's what helped contributed now. I still gotta own those things. Right. I'm still responsible for those things, but, um, those are, those are all wiring that I have now that's helped contribute to those things. And when that happens, you have the ability to look at other people around you and go.
Um, you know, we talked about masculinity. If I see somebody acting in a certain way, they don't be law enforcement, it can be masculinity in, uh, anywhere. It just, it, and I can almost feel empathy for it now. I mean, I do it, I feel it. I would have empathy for 22 year old and me right now. I'd look at them and go mats and sad.
I love it. And that's going to be a good sign to take a break. Before we go into that, if you wouldn't mind shouting out where people can find you online, where they can check out your podcast, all that kind of. Awesome. Uh, if you want to check out consequences habit, we are on all the major platforms. And if you want to meet, you can share our website consequences of heaven.org.
And that's where we have our nonprofit stuff is as, as well as all the other. Hello, Frank. Good. Am I this weirdness? And he's done this crazy thing. Yeah. Could use a random email and turned it into like a nine episode pod. It's a pretty bizarre thing to do. I've sent from the beginning at one of the Carver brothers is a sociopath.
There's something mysterious about it. I want to find out yes, you can fit a square peg in Toma. This is square peg, a new eight part series podcast. The newsletter said it was so riveting that they couldn't stop listening to check it out@squarepegpodcast.com or wherever you listen. Find us on social media.
Check the link in your show notes or search for Jay Schiffman and choose your struggle on any social media platform. How long after you got into recovery, did you decide that you wanted to turn around and do something with your story and with your work? I was about a year in, so there's some Irene, this I've been doing a podcast.
I was hosting another podcast for a company called kill cliff. And you want to talk about masculinity? So, so kill blends is a, is a performance drink and it's for, um, It was at this time, it was really big in the CrossFit world. Uh, I know Joe rogue has been promoting it for a bit now as well. So, um, I was, I matter of fact, they were sending me around.
They, they sent me to the, the, uh, drinkin bros podcast to be interviewed, which was a much bigger podcast. Still much bigger podcasts in mind, but, um, but I was already going down this path of sobriety and connecting my actions with my emotions and, and all of this stuff. So it was about a year in that, uh, COVID hits that falls away.
It's gone, right? This is what this other one is, is, is gone. Uh, so I still have this studio in my basement and I said, I'm just going to go down because I had this idea of, of habits and their consequences. Um, because I just lost everything. You know, we talking about like, what's important to you. Like what's important you, for me, it was my job.
It's my kids. It's me. It's my wife. It's, it's all of these things. And all those things were almost gone for something I was chasing, which, you know, at the end was still, oh, it was a poison. Um, so about a year in, I started these coming downstairs in my basement, getting on the microphone and talking about, uh, the consequences of our habit.
Um, and you know, you can only tell your story so much and I just start inviting other people on and to include yourself and people who'd been in recovery for longer than I have knew a lot more. Uh, and then it, wasn't just recovering. I think one of the important things we're trying to do is go look, I don't know what your poison is.
I don't care if it's drugs, whether it's alcohol, whether it's sex, whether it's work. Whether it's your phone, whatever it is. A lot of these things, all stem from the same place, right? This, this uncomfortableness, um, different poisons have different consequences. Uh, and, and so I started, I mean, I started talking to professional athletes, entrepreneurs about habits.
Um, you know, if it was on the habit spectrum, I wanted to talk about it. So that went on. So it was a year after sobriety. That starts a year for starting the podcast. I had somebody, a cool question from listeners, like just about habits and all these, these amazing things I've learned. And, and I'm looking at I'm going through the episodes and so much awesome, awesome material and lessons in life.
And, uh, how can we do more to synthesize this information then? And. As well as a podcast, how can we do something in person? Uh, so that was two years after I got sober. I filed the paperwork for the . Uh, which as, you know, takes a week. Yes, it does. And, and I was, uh, privileged to a lot of your, your, uh, questions and, and, and concerns along that process.
Before we talk about the nonprofit though, one thing I love about your show and I, again, I say this as a listener, somebody who's been on somebody who's recommended people to use shout out to our mutual friend, Friday, Chicago, you interview a lot of people who. Again, sort of what I was saying about you earlier are what we would think of as the epitome of manlihood.
Right? A lot of these guys are first responders or, or, or, um, a lot of them have served some of the guys, you look at them. And the first thing that comes to mind is just man. I mean, they are just, you had a dude on who looked like grizzly Adams. I mean, these are just like manly men. Yeah. And yet you're sitting there with them getting vulnerable.
You've had some guys cry on the show. How important is that to you to, to, again, I, I love to keep coming back to this because I know this is something that you deeply care about, but to change that idea, that men like you and men like your guests, can't be vulnerable and can't, can't be open in this way. I think that it's the lack of a really.
I think it's the people that try and hold these things in or on this idea that they can't be vulnerable. Uh, and you know, it's, it's the ones that have really stuck out to me are people that people that know better and they say, all right, you've seen this in your life. You've lived through this. Your reaction, which may seem not normal and crazy to some people is a normal reaction to what you've gone through and what you see.
Um, so if you aren't vulnerable, I'm telling you is a pressure cooker, something bad will happen. You know, when you talk about this to some, I forgot to mention before you talk about those moments right in your life where you're like, something's not right. Um, I had never had an anxiety attack. And I was standing each bunch of alpha males.
I was standing in the back of a classroom and I was about to instruct a Friday. There was a person giving a class at front and it was about a subject I knew a lot about. And in my mind, I was going to wow. These people with the knowledge that's drop on him and something happened, they called my name and something happened from the back of the room, in the room.
I mean, the walls came in on me. I started profusely sweating. And when I turn on, I went to talk and nothing was coming out of my mouth. It was like a weird high pitched noise. Like what the fuck is going on. Um, and I kept just coughing to by time, like, I was like clear my throat and then I pretended I had something and I walked off.
Uh, that is what. Uh, we like to call a clue, like something's not right. And that was my pressure cookers starting to leak. Um, and that was, that was one of the first times where I really had to go like something. Not good. Something's not right. And I need to start looking into what it is. So yeah, things are changing in those communities, at least in the military, in the law enforcement community, that, you know, you, you look the numbers, you look the amount of people that are dying by suicide.
You look at the amount of people that are, uh, that are dealing with substance misuse issues, mental health issues, everything that goes along with that, the change is necessity. Um, if there's any. Positive. To the trauma stress at this we've gone through as a country. Uh, that war brings on is the need for, for a different approach to our mental health.
And that's something that I love and respect about the conversations that you and I have is that you are by nature, a very curious person. And in the couple of times that I've told you about some of the things that I've tried, you have. Very curious. And you've also told me about some of the things that you have attempted is that, do you think that helps you in these conversations in terms of you being a guy who's not only walked the walk, but you're, you've been, you've, you've been there, but you are also willing to kind of get down in that hole with them and really, and really be there as they get vulnerable.
Sure, sure, man. Um, it can be exhausting and I'm open to, to, uh, listen, if it. There is no, in my mind, there is no cookie cutter way of, of dealing with this stuff. Some people, one thing works and a person takes five different things. Somebody's got something over here that works at the end of the day. If somebody's healthier, they're happier and they're not reliant on some chemical, uh, where they're abusing it.
I don't want to be clear on that though, that they're abusing then Alamo, then I'm all for it. Yeah. Within those communities that can come across as a little strange sometimes like when I start telling people about. You know, some breathing exercises like Wim Hoff kind of style reading thing. And I try and get people to join in.
Well, I mean, I may not have a bunch of people that are on board, but, um, I don't shut any of that stuff, man. None of it, I don't care what it is. And I, I greatly respect that. So, you know, we are at a time when the basic idea of, of the necessity of things like law enforcement in. God like the conversations that are happening around us as you and I are having this conversation today about why are, you know, why is war it?
How is that on the inside as a guy who you are a very, you would be in, in many communities recognized as sort of a progressive thinker and you're in a, in a community that doesn't always lend itself to that, is that difficult for you? I think some of the community. Um, I mean, I literally had these competence conversation with my wife today saying, but it just sucks that we live in a world where these few people can decide the lives and the misery of so many other people.
Right. Um, you know, there's a reason that the military picks people at a certain age in your life 100%. Um, but so yes, whether it's progressive or, or not, um, Again, I do think we're, we are shifting, uh, but it's a tricky world, man is when we start talking about things like security clearances, and, uh, you know, there's, there's a lot of apprehension vibe from a lot of people that might be suffering to come forward and, uh, because there's a punitive response to it.
And that's, that is a huge hurdle that, that hopefully we'll be able to cross at some point. And what was that thinking like for you when you did decide to come forward and start this non-profit as a guy who exists in those, in those circles, it was, it was difficult. It was really difficult. Um, I didn't tell anybody J like, I didn't tell anybody for a long time.
I had, I had a podcast. What consequences, how did that very few people that I actually knew knew I had a. I had my job didn't know, it took me close to a year when I was getting ready to do the non-profit. I knew I was going to have paperwork that could show up on a back. Like I knew at some point that this, these conversations were gonna, I was gonna have them.
Um, but it was extremely uncomfortable, uh, because for a couple of reasons, those mentalities are still ingrained. Right. And a lot of the people that, you know, you're going to have these conversations with. Might be struggling themselves. Um, so, so like you talking about even the stigma, like I used to say, like end the state.
I didn't I was living it. I was seeing those words, but at the same time, I am not still catch myself. Oh my kid, maybe I'm having a bad day and I'll make a comment about somebody. I realized, like, that was just me. Um, maybe I'm just struggling today, but, uh, yeah, it's, it is a, it is a tough thing and there's a lot of apprehension by a lot of people too.
Start heading down that path themselves. But you, you push through that. You started this nonprofit and talk a minute about why, you know, looking out over sort of the, the, the, you know, the landscape you thought, you know, what a nonprofit is the right way to go here? Um, I felt, man, I hope something come across.
I felt like I owed, I don't even know. I owed I, my life had gotten better. I was starting. To feel better. And I knew there was a lot of other people like me, um, which, I mean, this disease is it affects people in a lot of different ways. I grew up thinking somebody who was an alcoholic was somebody who's sitting in, in, in the basement of a shitty church, drinking bad coffee around with a bunch of other old people, right.
Talking about, um, ma I don't even know what they're talking about, to be honest with you, but they. And then I realized that everyone, everyone is I going to say rock bottom, but I will use the word everyone's rock bottom looks different. And, and I always compared mine, like I wasn't, I had a roommate whose father was a full, he was an alcoholic who every night got full-blown blackout drunk.
Right. And then he would not drink for periods of time. And I used to. I think, well, man, that must be way easier because you just know you. You're not balancing it or hearing to you, at least pretending to, um, it's like, it's like a boxer getting knocked out or just getting jabbed in his face for the rest of his life.
Like which one is it? Like I'm committed to being murdered with a wiffle ball that it's like these little pains that happen over and over, but, but it doesn't, it doesn't knock you out. Um, but Myra modern was almost losing these important things in my life. So I knew there's a lot of people I don't have.
Uh, they don't have any law enforcement. There's just a lot of people just existing in society that know deep down that they're, that they're a slave to something and they don't know how to do it. They don't know how to maybe make those changes. Um, so. That was, that was what I felt is draw to try and do.
Um, and then level the playing field. Like I said, I don't want, uh, so I had an alcohol issue. You had a drug issue, you have a w whatever your issue is, let's, let's all start maybe looking at the root of these things and not making it, um, But that to me was a way to really get rid of the stigma. So you've got the podcast, which is excellent.
I obviously recommend everybody check it out. Tell us a little bit else, uh, about what the non-profits doing and, and specifically, you know, if people are hearing this and going, man, this J T dude, like I'm loving this, I want to get involved. What does getting involved with your nonprofit look like? Well, that's, that's kind of taking form in, in real time.
And, uh, before I just get into J I want to say. You are the F like you donated. And I took a picture of that donation and I sent that because that was the first, that was the first real donation that I had. So you had texted me like, Hey, what's your address? And I'm like, ah, you know, I'm just kind of expecting a check for 20 foot box or something like that.
And, and it was, it meant means the absolute world to be quiet. So, uh, we've got a couple different. First thing that's in the works is team consequences, habit. And that is going to be, if you have, we're saying it's for people that have touched both sides of that having spectrum. So if you've suffered in your life with mental health, substance misuse, and you're now doing something, uh, say you're running your into MMA, you're in a sailing.
I don't care what you're into. If we can. Help you get to do what you're doing. So whether that's through buying apparel through, uh, memberships, whether that's like race fees, whatever it is, we are going to have a team consequence of habit and that's in the works. Now. Um, the other thing is we are only workshops and programs for people, uh, local.
Uh, I believe they were already have passed by the time this comes on, but we are holding a mindfulness meditation and movement workshop. And that's me for veterans and first responders, uh, we've got apply event. That's going to be running. So, this is, again, this isn't just for people in recovery, but that's going to be jogging, hiking, biking, but you're picking up trash the entire time, this, this idea of doing something for yourself, but being involved in something bigger than yourself, which God knows you guys are just, you know, I see the most you guys are doing, uh, uh, with Savage Savage says there's like that.
So fucking cool man. Like, yeah, I love it. I love it. So, um, and we're always looking for volunteers, so please check us. It will be beyond the website consequences. Avodart well, one thing you and I can both, I think echo each other here, is that being involved with something bigger than yourself is just it's key, uh, for being in recovery, right?
I mean, it is so important. You know, I've had listeners write in and be like you're so anti-gay, I'm like I'm re I'm not, and I'm so sorry if I've done anything to make it sound like that. I think that there are some tenants that are super important, but the most important thing that AA has is that community.
That is the piece that a guy who went through this alone did not have. And, and, and that's the piece of what you're doing that I love so much is that this way of building community that is not smacking you in the face with it, right? I mean, there's not, let's sit around and talk about this, which is important.
I don't want to minimize that, but you are, you are helping people. That's why I love the, the, the, the jogging while picking up trash thing, you know, that is a way for people to feel connected. Uh, if they're not ready yet to be sharing their story, they can just, you know, be a member of your community by posting pictures, by reaching out and being involved that way.
Yeah. This in your writing community, is it like, all right, so, so I don't care if you're a members of a hell's angel or the military or any of these things, what they w the way they bond them together is through a shared purpose and a shared challenge. And when you do those things together, Uh, that's what builds true connection.
You might not even like the person like you listen. There's a lot of people in the military. They don't may not even like the person on their left or right. What, there, they share a purpose and they share a connection. And th there's, there's something truly special about that. Again, being part of something very yourself, I say being, being part of something like that is one of the most selfish things you can do because of the way it's going to make you end up with.
In the longterm. It's like, uh, it's I you're right. I echo what you said. So let's, uh, let's do some, uh, one forward-looking exercise here. You and I are doing a follow interview in five years, we connected, and this was still a sparkle in your eye. And, and, you know, you've been building this thing in a couple of years that we've known each other.
It's still, uh, you know, it's barely boring, right? So five years down the road, when you are, you've got this thing and it's solid. What do you hope it would, uh, it will accomplish. I would love to see, uh, some chapters have an open, um, where, where, like I said, it's, it's wherever, you know, say there's one in Philly, there there's one in, in Baltimore.
And it's, like-minded people building connection through purposing challenge with the same idea of, of everyone moving in a positive direction and that's through analyzing your habits, um, and is a non. And in a nonjudgmental way, ma'am like, that's, uh, if you want, you want a place for people to open up and be able to actually talk about stuff and you can have those kind of tough conversations around that in a nonjudgmental way.
So I would love to see, uh, I would love to see some chapters in some different places. I'd love to see some, some people from, from team consequences, having. Just awesome stuff, man. If there's still that masculine, I don't want people with kicking ass man at the same time. Uh, just wearing some, some, you know, having this background, like the bad news bears have just gone through some hard shit, but, but if push forward, That's what impresses me doing your rock.
Somebody who's lived a great life and done as amazing habits from the Jacko. That is, that was amazing. What for what gets me going is the person that has suffered has done some things in their life. They've, they've gone through some hard things who have now made a positive change because change. It's fucking hard and, and, and you all know that every, everybody here at choose your struggle, echoes that sentiment, uh, very much so.
And if all that you're hearing isn't enough of a reason to reach out, to, to JT and get involved. Uh, w your merchant is on fire. When I, when I told my wife that I was interviewing you today, she went, oh, the guy with the cool shirt. So, uh, that, that is how, uh, I wear your shirt. When I, when I run. And it, it, the merchant, the merchant is good.
So I can definitely tell people, reach out, donate and get a shirt cause it's good stuff. Uh, which will take us into one more time. Please shout out where people can find you where they can follow you online and check out the. You can check us out@consequencesofhabit.org. Um, the podcast is on all of the major platforms we are on Instagram.
We are on, uh, we're on Facebook trying to wean myself off that. So if you don't see a ton of stuff on that, cause that we're talking about dopamine, man, that's, I'm low on fruit for that freaking social media. So. Uh, but we, we, we do have presence on there and we are checking in some way else kind of running that stuff.
So that's where you can find it. And definitely looking, listen to the podcast, go back and find the episode with me. Go back. Although a lot of you already heard it cause I released it here last season. Uh, go check out our good friend, Freddy Chicag on the podcast as well. Uh, we, we always finished with the same two questions, JT, and those are number one.
What are your self-care habits? What works for you? My self care is usually waking up early. Um, and I got away from it and I just got back into it today, started my day off by doing something for somebody else. Uh, so for me, that is sending a stoic quote to a group of people that I've connected with over the years.
Um, and then I have to take a couple minutes. Uh, to do some type of meditation breath work otherwise, um, I mean my day falls apart, but, but I'm just not in tune. With the thoughts and emotions going through my head and connecting the two with, with my actions. So, uh, it's usually the day I'll I'll chase somebody who's cut me off or, you know, find myself doing something stupid.
So, uh, those, I would say, uh, some again, service work and something for myself, either physical or submitted. Love it. And obviously all the listeners know that I believe mindfulness is incredibly important. So echo that finally we've now spent the last 47 minutes listening to you. Why you're awesome. Why we should be following you everywhere, but this is your chance to shout out some other people who, what do you listen to read?
Watch anything like that? That we should go check out. So I would say if you're interested in the mind and dopamine, uh, there's a book out there called dopamine nation and that's by Dr. Anna Lemke and it was a game changer for me. I thought it was fantastic and it's really going to help people connect.
Um, maybe some of the things that they've do or want to do, uh, with, with the, with that tricky chemical in your brain. Um, and then as far as. As far as listening to, um, I mean, I'm, I'm a, I'm a height man for, for a human labs. Andrew human is, it is a podcast I'm really into right now. And ologies, I don't know if you ever checked out one out.
Uh, it's a fantastic one. Um, and, and that's, uh, with, with Allie, Allie ward, uh, those are the two ones I'm, I'm really into. Well, JT, I'll tell you what, man. It was really a pleasure to finally record this after knowing you and admiring your work for the last couple of years. Thank you so much for all. You're doing likewise, Jay, I'm looking forward to a, a, uh, lots of other diner visits and taking part in and w some of the things you're doing and, uh, I really.
She was just back for their second season. I'm so thankful to have bookshop.org as a partner. When you buy a book on bookshop, you not only support this show, you can also select your favorite local bookstore to get some of the proceeds for me, I've chosen, Harriet's a black owned bookstore here in Philadelphia.
So next time you need a book, or if you want to check out any of the books that we've profiled on this show, go to bookshop.org/shop+c Y S again, that's bookshop.org/shopping/c Y. Yeah. Support us on Patrion. Check us out at patrion.com/choose your struggle or the link in your show notes are right. We've come to the end of another episode of the choose your struggle podcast.
Thank you so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed the conversation with JT. He is doing really great work with the consequence of habit show and the nonprofit. Please check it out. Uh, that's not your good egg, just the. We are going to go straight to the cards. There they are. We're using the just one thing card deck, 52 practices for more happiness, love and wisdom from Rick Hanson.
And this week's card is say, thanks. What do you feel when someone thanks you for something you probably feel seen appreciated that you matter to other people turning it around. When you say thank you to someone it's a small moment with big ripples, a confirmation of deep and wonderful truth that we all depend on.
Each other that we're all joined in the web whose threads are innumerable acts of. Consider where you might have a backlog of thanks, perhaps for big things like saying things to your parents, relatives or old friends, think of your teachers, coaches, supervisors, or neighbors, make a list of these people that you want to think and gradually move through the list.
That is a really good card. Um, And that's so funny, that's actually going to go straight into our good egg for this week, which was going to be, he sat on here, you know, uh, that neighbors were one of the people you may want to think, do something for your neighborhood, for your neighbors. Lauren and I are very lucky to live in an, in a community that we love south Philly.
What's. And it's a very communal area. Uh, we are very appreciative of our neighbors and our community. So do something for your neighbors this week. That is your good egg, but above all else as always be vulnerable. Show your empathy, spread your love and choose your struggle. I'll talk to you next week.