The Bible in America - John Plake

Show Notes

How are Millennials and Gen Z engaging with the Bible today? Dr. John Plake, Chief Innovation Officer at the American Bible Society, joins Dan Ehrman on The Church Around the World podcast to share insights from the State of the Bible 2025 research. Discover trends in Scripture engagement, the history of ABS, and how God is shaping a new generation of ministry leaders. Perfect for pastors, church leaders, and anyone passionate about Bible engagement and discipleship.

How does God move the Bible from words on a page to His Word written on our hearts? Dr. John Plake, Chief Innovation Officer at the American Bible Society, joins Dan Ehrman on The Church Around the World podcast to share insights from the State of the Bible 2025 research, reflect on ABS’s history, and highlight how God is inspiring a new generation of ministry. He also offers encouraging perspectives on how Millennials and Gen Z are engaging Scripture at deeper levels than ever before.

Dr. John Plake has served in church leadership, missions, non-profit work, cross-cultural leadership, and education. Alongside his research at the American Bible Society, he teaches at Evangel University and leads Mission Insights. John holds a Ph.D. in Intercultural Studies from Assemblies of God Theological Seminary, an M.A. in Missions from Wheaton College, and a B.S. in Pastoral Studies from North Central University.

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Episode Links:
State of the Bible 2025 eBook
American Bible Society
Church.NextStep.Bible
Dr. John Plake

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Creators and Guests

Host

Dan Ehrman

Director of Church Relations & Strategy - Tyndale House Publishers

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Host Dan Ehrman from Tyndale House Ministries invites you to join him for The Church Around the World podcast for important and impactful conversations with church and ministry leaders. They'll share stories about God at work, His people, and what's happening in faith and culture that's shaping the local and global church today. From your neighborhood to the ends of the earth, listen to these powerful and timely testimonies of blessings and challenges directly from the people that are helping build up the church around the world.

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Here is your host for the church
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Dan Ehrman.

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Welcome to the church around the
world.

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I'm Dan Ehrman.

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Honored to be joined today by

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Doctor John Plake, who serves

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with the American Bible Society

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as their Chief Innovation

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Officer.

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In addition to teaching as an
adjunct professor at Evangel

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University and, uh, having
served the church in various

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capacities for, uh, more than a
couple of years.

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So Doctor Plake, honored to
connect with you here.

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Thank you.

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Dan, it's a pleasure to connect
with you as well.

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Well, if I can call you John,
um, uh, you know, looking at,

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uh, the work of the American
Bible Society, I didn't know

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what it was until I saw a report
that you put out called the

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state of the church or the state
of the Bible.

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Pardon me.

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And, uh, before we get into some
of the the details of that,

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let's back up and look at, uh,
American Bible Society.

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Would you introduce that to
people and what you guys do and

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what you're about?

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Sure.

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I'd be happy to.

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So, um, I have been at the

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American Bible Society for a

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very small fraction of its long

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history.

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As of our recording of this

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podcast, the American Bible

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Society is two hundred and nine

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years old, which makes it one of

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the oldest non-profits in the

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United States.

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Um, for all of those years, they
have been focused.

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I guess we have been focused on
making sure that there were no

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barriers to the Bible anywhere
in the world, in the United

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States and around the world.

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And so we found that those

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barriers are sometimes printing

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and distribution.

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Sometimes they're digital access
to the Bible.

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Sometimes people have access to

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the Bible, but they just don't

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know what to do with it, or how

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to really unpack the message of

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Scripture and its relevance for

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us today.

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And so we help them to engage
more deeply with the Bible.

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And then maybe for many of our
listeners on your podcast, we

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really want to equip people to
be great advocates for the

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Bible, not because we care so
much about the Bible.

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Um, it's a book, right?

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And we honor it and we think
highly of it.

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And I think we have great
stories of how the Bible has

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spoken to our lives, but it's
because we care about the God

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that the Bible points to.

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And so we don't just want people

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to know the Word of God wrapped

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in leather, you know, edged in,

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in with this gilt edge and the

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tabs and all the things that we

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do to make the Bible look

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special.

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We want them to know the living
Word of God.

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Love it.

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Some of the things that jumped

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out to me, just some of the

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people who have been involved

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with American Bible Society

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were, you know, the one of the

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the presidents of the

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Continental Congress was the

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first president of American

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Bible Society.

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And John Jay, the first chief
justice of the Supreme Court,

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and Francis Scott Key.

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And it's like a list of people
involved in American history.

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And to see, um, the American

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Bible Society is integral to,

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uh, their sense of purpose and

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calling, not just as statesmen,

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but as followers of the Lord and

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wanting to see the Word of God

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distributed.

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And, you know, the history
through the Civil War where you

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distributed Bibles to soldiers
and, um, just a huge legacy,

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distributing hundreds of
millions of Bibles in the

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history of the US.

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Just extraordinary.

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Uh, fun.

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It must be fun to step into some
of that history.

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It is.

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You know, we have a hallway here

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in our office in Philadelphia

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where we're right on

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Independence Mall.

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And when they moved us here from
New York City, where we were

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located for one hundred and
ninety nine years, um, we set up

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a hallway in this building, and
you can walk down that hall of

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change makers and see the
portraits of people who have

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been involved in the Bible.

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Cause one of my favorites early
on was to see a portrait of

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President John Quincy Adams.

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And he has the distinction of
being the only sitting president

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of the United States who at the
same time was an officer of the

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American Bible Society.

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So, uh, it's, it's quite a group
of just luminary people.

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And I love to tell the story.

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I'm a researcher, a

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missiological researcher and

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pastor.

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And, um, I love that the Bible

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society was started out of a

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research project.

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Actually, what happened was the

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haystack revival had taken

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place.

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That was the revival that gave
rise to the first American

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missionaries like Adoniram
Judson and one of the people who

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was part of that haystack
revival wasn't healthy enough

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for the American Mission Board,
the American Board of

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Commissioners to send him
overseas in missionary service.

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They wouldn't let him go.

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And so he was frustrated by
that.

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And he decided he was going to

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tour the western frontier of

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America, which at that time was

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like Ohio.

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And so out he went to the

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Western territories through Ohio

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territory, all the way to Saint

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Louis, rode down the Mississippi

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River to New Orleans, and then

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came by horseback and, and

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whatever transportation he could

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find all the way back up to New

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York City.

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And his report was really
striking.

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He came to Elias Boudinot, who
was that one?

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Who's the president of the

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Continental Congress and our our

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founding manager of the American

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Bible Society.

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And he said, you know what,
where there are Bibles and where

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there are churches, the American
experiment is going well.

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People are thriving.

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They're succeeding.

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Um, the communities are strong

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and they're healthy, but where

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the church is not and where the

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Bible is not, we have some real

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problems.

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And I think it was that just

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qualitative research that they

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brought back.

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And suddenly all of the city
level Bible societies, the Bible

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Society of New York, the Bible
Society of Philadelphia, all of

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these different Bible societies,
they said, you know what, we

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have to marshal a national
effort to make sure that the

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Bible is available everywhere.

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There's a long history of
innovation.

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I mean, you think about like,

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how do you get Bibles from New

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York City to Saint Louis or New

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Orleans before the Erie Canal

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and before the railroads

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existed?

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And how do you do that without
them being spoiled by rain and

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water and all that stuff?

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And they came up with a way.

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And they've been really

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innovating not just in the

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United States, but today working

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in well over one hundred

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countries.

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We help to form the United Bible
Societies after World War Two.

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Today, there are one hundred and

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fifty three national Bible

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societies serving somewhere

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around the world, literally in

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every country and territory of

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the world.

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So it's great to be part of a
fellowship that's much bigger

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than us, and to be part of just
what God's doing in the world.

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That's amazing.

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Uh, other little snippets in
your history that jumped out at

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me is the number of Bible
translations in Native American

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languages in your history.

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This is going back again, one

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hundred and fifty, two hundred

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years now.

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And, uh, to see that legacy as
well is really cool.

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You know, it really is.

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Uh, I know one of those first
translations was a whole Bible

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for the Lenni Lenape, uh, which
you may know as the Delaware

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Indians if you went to school
when I did.

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But their proper name, what they

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call themselves was the Lenni

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Lenape.

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And now I live in the territory
that they occupied.

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I live in in North Wilmington,

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Delaware, which was part of

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Pennsylvania Colony at the time,

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and they were really committed

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to seeing that Native American

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people had an opportunity to

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know God's Word and to follow

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Christ.

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And today, there are many, many
places where God has just

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sovereignly done an amazing work
among Native American peoples.

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And sadly, there are some places
where the church wasn't very

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skilled, um, and somehow
conflated the idea of being a

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Western European with being a
follower of Jesus.

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We've, you know, of course,
we've had that in the church

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through throughout the years.

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But I'm really grateful that

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some of my best friends in

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ministry are actually Native

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American leaders.

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That's that's fun.

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That's a, that's a great, uh,

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kind of personal insight to that

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as well.

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Um, so turning to, uh, the

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report that initially attracted

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me to connect with you, Doctor

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Plake, uh, the state of the

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Bible.

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I. This is a big report and a
lot of research.

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Uh, talk about the genesis of
this.

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You've been doing this since
about twenty ten, is that right?

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I think twenty eleven was the
first year that we actually

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published a report.

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So this year, twenty twenty five
is our fifteenth year.

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And it's really been something
that emerged over the years.

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Initially, we reached out to a
great research organization that

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David Kinnaman leads the Barna
Group, and we asked them to help

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us understand what's going on
with the Bible in America.

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And for several years, every

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year, the Barna Group would do a

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nationally normed study of all

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Americans from every walk of

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life.

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And then eventually American
Bible Society developed our own

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internal research capability.

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And then we had a need to be
able to be published in peer

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reviewed journals, because we
started studying the connection

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between Bible engagement and
human flourishing as defined by

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Harvard University's Chan School
of Public Health.

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And so during the Covid nineteen

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years, we were doing all of that

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research in-house, and we

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brought our survey panel work to

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the University of Chicago, to

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the National Opinion Research

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Council, and they now collect

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data for us every year in

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January.

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And it's really high quality
data.

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It is probability based
sampling, which means it's just

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the highest standard of
understanding what's happening.

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It's not just convenience polls.

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It's not something that we're
sending out to our five best

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friends and saying, oh, this is
representative of America, but

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it's really a high standard.

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And our findings have been
published in Jama psychiatry.

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They've been published in the
Journal of Public Health.

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They've been published in the

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Journal of General Internal

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Medicine and other places as

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well.

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And so we're really grateful
that every year we can just

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reach out to all Americans and
say, tell us about your beliefs,

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your experiences, your
attitudes, behaviors about the

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Bible, faith and the church.

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And it's been quite a ride.

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So, you know, I'm, I'm kind of
thinking for a local church

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pastors, church leaders, and
they hear about a giant academic

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report in their eyes glaze over.

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They're intimidated.

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Or you have a few with the PhDs

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who have already dove in and

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they're running circles around

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me.

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So, uh, but, uh, for those who

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are uninitiated, um, how would

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you want the local church to

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engage with the state of the

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Bible report?

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I think with all research, I

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mean, I have a background as a

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pastor.

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I went to Bible college.

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I did not learn to do research
in my pastoral education, but I

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hadn't been in pastoral ministry
for very long.

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When I began to notice that in

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the community where I was

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serving, um, the people who

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attended my church weren't

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necessarily they didn't seem to

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be representative of the whole

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community.

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And so I wondered, are we
missing people?

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Are there people who aren't

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being served well by the

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ministry that I was helping to

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lead?

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And so began to teach myself to
do basic demographic research.

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And I discovered that there were

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some places in our community

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that, boy, we didn't have good

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ministry to, and that was

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affecting the way our church was

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thinking about our mission in

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the community.

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And so over the years, I've

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developed other kinds of skills

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and certainly built a team

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around me.

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But fundamentally, pastoral
ministry is a place where you

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get deeply enmeshed in a
relationship with people that

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you know really well.

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You know what their needs are.

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They talk to you, they
communicate with you.

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And that's really useful as long
as you have the ability to be

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friends with everybody in your
community, but you quickly learn

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that there are people out there
that won't talk to you.

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Or there are people out there
whose challenges are unfamiliar

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to you, whose barriers are
unfamiliar to you.

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You can have blind spots, I
certainly did.

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And so this kind of research

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helps us love our neighbor as

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ourselves by listening to them

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at scale.

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And that's a really challenging
practice to do and do well.

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But we do this on behalf of the
church.

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So you can say, well, hey, how's
America doing with the Bible?

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Where are there barriers and
where are there opportunities

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for us to lean into doing Bible
based ministry in a way that

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will serve your community well?

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Mhm.

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Well, it's a it's a one hundred
and fifty page report and it's

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free for people to download.

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We'll include a link to the page

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where you can sign up to

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download that from the American

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Bible Society.

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But you know, in, in that whole
report, um, there was one

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statistic that jumped out to me,
um, that you had highlighted in

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kind of the church Summary, and
that is that only thirty three

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percent of people who attend
church strongly feel that they

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can find a place to really
deploy their spiritual gifting.

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And I would love to know, like

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sort of some of the background

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of how did you even how was that

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question proffered?

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And, uh, what is the
implications of that for us as,

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as church leaders?

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That's a great question, Dan,

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and I'm glad you picked up on

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it.

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We did an entire chapter on
church engagement.

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And honestly, we, we took a, a,
a cue from social science

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research that's done in the area
of work engagement.

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So you get the idea of what an
engaged worker is, right?

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Somebody who's really engaged in

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their job, they're bringing

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their whole self to the

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experience of, of their

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vocation.

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They feel appreciated.

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They have connections.

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They're, they're more likely to
stay and be involved.

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And so what we did is we we

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borrowed some of that language

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and we asked a series of five

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questions.

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We said, okay, um, do you agree

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or disagree or how much do you

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agree or disagree with these

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five statements?

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Number one, in the past year,
I've had opportunities to learn

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and grow in my faith.

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Number two, I have a best friend
at church.

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Number three, there's someone at

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church who encourages my

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spiritual development.

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Number four, my pastor or other
church leaders seem to care

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about me as a person.

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And number five, at church, I

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have the opportunity to use my

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giftings.

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And that's the one you were
referring to, right?

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Yes.

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Um, that only thirty three
percent strongly or very

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strongly agreed with that.

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There was another fifty five
percent that said, well, I kind

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of agree with that.

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And then twelve percent said,
nope.

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Uh, absolutely don't agree.

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And I think what we found was a
prescription for the ways that

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we as pastors and church
leaders, we want our people to

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be engaged, but sometimes we
miss the things that help them

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to be engaged.

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Um, so that was one of them
having a best friend at church

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that was really interesting.

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Church is such a relational
place.

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And I think back over my, uh,
you know, fifty six years of

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being involved in the church and
all of my best friends have

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always been people who were in
the church because I was raised

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in the church.

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And we looked at this and only
twenty seven percent strongly or

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very strongly agreed that they
have a best friend at church.

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So we have to understand that
we're not only trying to bring

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people into relationship with
God, but also with the family of

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God and building strong
relational communities, I think

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is a key component of what we're
doing in the church.

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And it enables us to, to connect
with one another for the purpose

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of blessing those who are in the
community around us.

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I remember the the famous quote

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that the church is the only

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institution in the world that

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exists for the benefit of its

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non-members.

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Wow.

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Wow.

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I think that gets after, um, the

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crisis of relationship and

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friendship in the country where,

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uh, we've, I think as, as a

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whole and some of this is social

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media and tons of contributing

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factors.

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Um, in some ways a clean garage,
um, that with doors that close

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as you pull in, uh, we just
don't have a sense of deep

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rooted community and
connectedness as a society.

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And, uh, you know, how, how do

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we see, uh, beyond just kind of,

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uh, putting a face on it for the

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local church?

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How do we shift the culture of
people in the church to move

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into relationship, to bring back
a sense of hospitality.

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I saw a comedian doing a stand
up set and talking about how,

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um, you know, he's like, you
know, thirty years ago when I

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was a kid, you know, the
doorbell ring is like, it's

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company and the whole family,
you know, runs up and he tells a

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series of jokes along the way.

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But, uh, you know, there's an

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element of like, we've lost that

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as a culture and, you know,

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when's the last time we've had

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company, you know, of unexpected

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showing up?

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Uh, maybe grandma.

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That's about it.

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Yeah.

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You know, I think there is this
sense in which the church at its

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best is designed to be a family.

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Um, and, you know, in my
tradition growing up, we

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actually referred to men and
women in the church as brother

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so and so or sister so and so.

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And, you know, I come from that

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kind of Midwestern, um, uh,

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revivalist kind of, uh,

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tradition.

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You're welcome.

Speaker:
You're welcome.

Speaker:
Yeah.

Speaker:
Yeah.

Speaker:
So one of the things that I find

Speaker:
fascinating, though, is that we

Speaker:
see the healthiest churches have

Speaker:
two characteristics.

Speaker:
First, really healthy churches

Speaker:
have a deep relationship with

Speaker:
the Bible.

Speaker:
Um, and that doesn't mean that
they ignore the community around

Speaker:
them, but there, there are kind
of two kinds of churches in

Speaker:
America, if you will.

Speaker:
One kind of church is really
focused on Scripture and

Speaker:
understanding Scripture, being
deeply embedded in the text.

Speaker:
They're people of the text.

Speaker:
There's another kind of church

Speaker:
that is really people of the

Speaker:
context.

Speaker:
They care very much for their

Speaker:
neighbors and for the people

Speaker:
around them.

Speaker:
Uh, but really missional

Speaker:
churches care for both at the

Speaker:
same time, and they become a

Speaker:
living bridge that connects the

Speaker:
text of God's unchanging word

Speaker:
with the context around them and

Speaker:
is answering the questions, the

Speaker:
theological questions that are

Speaker:
arising from those deep

Speaker:
relationships of serving those

Speaker:
around us.

Speaker:
Churches are not healthy when
they are country clubs.

Speaker:
So when they exist for the

Speaker:
relationships within the church

Speaker:
rather than the mission outside

Speaker:
the church, they quickly devolve

Speaker:
into something that isn't

Speaker:
welcoming, that doesn't look out

Speaker:
for the needs of the community

Speaker:
around them.

Speaker:
We cannot be at a place where we

Speaker:
exist for the people inside the

Speaker:
walls of the church, but we

Speaker:
gather inside the walls of the

Speaker:
church to be equipped and

Speaker:
strengthened to serve outside of

Speaker:
it.

Speaker:
That's good.

Speaker:
I've heard some some preachers

Speaker:
kind of refer to it as

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exegeting, both the text and, um

Speaker:
and the culture, um, in which,

Speaker:
uh, they're delivering the

Speaker:
message of, you know, God's word

Speaker:
into that.

Speaker:
And do you see this as something

Speaker:
that is, um, derived from the

Speaker:
pulpit or is there a culture to

Speaker:
the church that's driving this

Speaker:
that the pulpit might be part of

Speaker:
that?

Speaker:
Like how how do you is it a

Speaker:
chicken or the egg kind of a

Speaker:
scenario?

Speaker:
Well, you and I were talking
before the show started.

Speaker:
I also went to graduate school

Speaker:
at Wheaton along with you and

Speaker:
did PhD work after that in

Speaker:
intercultural studies.

Speaker:
And, um, you know, there's been

Speaker:
this long debate among culture

Speaker:
people.

Speaker:
Um, our cultures are some

Speaker:
cultures are more predisposed to

Speaker:
God, are some less predisposed

Speaker:
to God?

Speaker:
Are some cultures good and other
cultures bad?

Speaker:
And I started in the kind of
culture neutral position.

Speaker:
All cultures are sort of equally
for and against God, and they

Speaker:
all have bridges for the gospel.

Speaker:
I've come to really be won over

Speaker:
to the perspective that all

Speaker:
cultures, mine included, are

Speaker:
against Christ.

Speaker:
Um, they are, they are by their

Speaker:
very nature adversarial to

Speaker:
Christ because culture in many

Speaker:
ways is about propagating power

Speaker:
structures, knowingly or

Speaker:
unknowingly, that kind of keep

Speaker:
the same people in control of

Speaker:
things.

Speaker:
And the gospel is about Jesus
upsetting all of that.

Speaker:
Let me read the Gospel of Luke.

Speaker:
Read read the book of acts.

Speaker:
There are all of these places
where Jesus says, yeah, you guys

Speaker:
think you're in control and, and
really you're not.

Speaker:
And so I think we have to follow
in the footsteps of Christ.

Speaker:
And we have to recognize that we

Speaker:
do exist in many ways to bring

Speaker:
good news to those who are poor

Speaker:
in spirit, to those who are

Speaker:
struggling to the least of

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these.

Speaker:
And when we do that, we find

Speaker:
that God is at work in our

Speaker:
midst.

Speaker:
It is actually that purposeful,
missional work that brings great

Speaker:
fulfillment, that brings
happiness and life satisfaction,

Speaker:
that all of those components of
human flourishing begin to

Speaker:
accumulate as we know God's Word
and walk in it.

Speaker:
Uh, how, how do you see us kind
of reinvigorating as a culture

Speaker:
to reengage on mission that we
don't rest in complacency.

Speaker:
But then, you know, not not just
grind after grinding, but, you

Speaker:
know, really delighting in the
consistent walk that God is

Speaker:
calling us into in that good
work prepared in advance for us.

Speaker:
That's a great question, Dan.

Speaker:
You know, I always come back to
Jesus prescription.

Speaker:
Um, which is love the Lord your
God with all your heart, with

Speaker:
all your soul, with all your
mind and your strength.

Speaker:
And the second is like it, the
second commandment, love your

Speaker:
neighbor as yourself.

Speaker:
And I think if we keep a firm

Speaker:
grasp on our pursuit of God, we

Speaker:
discover his amazingness in

Speaker:
Scripture.

Speaker:
And yet we also find him

Speaker:
propelling us into our

Speaker:
communities to love our

Speaker:
neighbors.

Speaker:
And as we do that kind of
missional engagement, we

Speaker:
discover there's stuff we need
that we don't have that makes us

Speaker:
reliant on God as driving into
the office this morning

Speaker:
listening to the Bible Project's
podcast as they're looking at

Speaker:
the theme of the wilderness.

Speaker:
And I was just reminded again

Speaker:
that sometimes it's God who

Speaker:
brings us into the wilderness in

Speaker:
order to teach us that when

Speaker:
things look bleak, we can rely

Speaker:
on him.

Speaker:
In fact, we should rely on him.

Speaker:
And he took the children of

Speaker:
Israel through the water, and he

Speaker:
didn't take them the easy road

Speaker:
to go to, um, you know, the land

Speaker:
of Canaan.

Speaker:
He took them the hard road, the
wilderness way, because they

Speaker:
needed to learn to rely on him.

Speaker:
And I think that the struggle

Speaker:
that we walk through in our

Speaker:
lifetimes often teaches us to

Speaker:
rely on him and to turn to God's

Speaker:
word.

Speaker:
I'll just give you an example of
this.

Speaker:
So one of the data points that

Speaker:
we've discovered is that people

Speaker:
are most open to the Bible or

Speaker:
open to the gospel when they are

Speaker:
facing disruptions in their

Speaker:
lives.

Speaker:
We profile this quite a bit in
the state of the Bible report,

Speaker:
But those disruptions can be
negative or positive.

Speaker:
So they can be things like the
whole world experienced during

Speaker:
the Covid nineteen pandemic.

Speaker:
And we saw exploration of the
Bible going up, at least for a

Speaker:
brief period of time.

Speaker:
And we saw people asking

Speaker:
questions through grief and

Speaker:
through difficulty.

Speaker:
Where is God?

Speaker:
Um, how do I find comfort?

Speaker:
How do I find strength to get
through this?

Speaker:
They're, they're turning to or
having an openness to God.

Speaker:
We also find that in positive

Speaker:
disruptions, like, you know, um,

Speaker:
if you're a father or a mother,

Speaker:
you remember when that first

Speaker:
happened and you were like, wait

Speaker:
a minute, I don't know how to do

Speaker:
this.

Speaker:
If if God, God, can you help me?

Speaker:
Please not be an idiot as a
father or God, can you help me?

Speaker:
Please not be an idiot.

Speaker:
As a pastor, I had my first

Speaker:
pastoral assignment when I was,

Speaker:
um, not quite twenty one years

Speaker:
old.

Speaker:
I kind of went through Bible
college in a hurry.

Speaker:
And Lord, you know, I don't know

Speaker:
what I'm doing, even if I think

Speaker:
I do.

Speaker:
And so those times when we come

Speaker:
to the end of ourselves, we turn

Speaker:
to God.

Speaker:
And those are the times when he

Speaker:
proves that he's faithful and he

Speaker:
can help us through our

Speaker:
challenges.

Speaker:
Mhm.

Speaker:
Well that's good.

Speaker:
I, uh, I remember when our son

Speaker:
was born and, um, being in the

Speaker:
hospital lobby about to walk out

Speaker:
in the middle of winter in

Speaker:
Chicago, and, uh, we had the

Speaker:
baby carrier going out to the

Speaker:
car.

Speaker:
And I remember looking at my
wife and being like, they're

Speaker:
just going to let us walk out of
here with him.

Speaker:
This is crazy.

Speaker:
And, uh, here we go.

Speaker:
Uh, but yeah, you're right.

Speaker:
You know, in those transition
moments in life, the Lord can

Speaker:
really move and work and, uh,
being prepared to serve and meet

Speaker:
people in those moments, um, is
critical for the local church.

Speaker:
Um, I want to turn a little bit

Speaker:
more to you, Doctor Plake of,

Speaker:
uh, you have the title of Chief

Speaker:
Innovation officer.

Speaker:
What is a chief innovation
officer?

Speaker:
Well, uh, it's it's a a short.

Speaker:
It's the shortest title we could
come up with.

Speaker:
I actually lead both the
insights and the innovation team

Speaker:
at American Bible Society.

Speaker:
And so we really work on, on the
insight side, we work on

Speaker:
research, design, monitoring and
evaluation of our programs.

Speaker:
In other words, we we don't just
take it for granted.

Speaker:
We're doing something that's

Speaker:
needed, but we do research like

Speaker:
state of the Bible and other

Speaker:
kinds of research to make sure

Speaker:
that we're finding where are

Speaker:
there opportunities for the

Speaker:
Bible and how do we communicate

Speaker:
Scripture in a way that meets

Speaker:
those opportunities?

Speaker:
A good way to think about that
is, um, if you handed somebody

Speaker:
your favorite, you know, leather
bound King James Bible, um, that

Speaker:
maybe really means a lot to you.

Speaker:
And you just handed it to him
and said, here you go.

Speaker:
It's everything you need.

Speaker:
Well, chances are in America

Speaker:
today they don't read

Speaker:
Shakespeare, so they're not

Speaker:
going to understand sixteen

Speaker:
eleven English.

Speaker:
And chances are they don't know

Speaker:
how to find what they're looking

Speaker:
for, even if they know there's

Speaker:
something valuable in there for

Speaker:
them.

Speaker:
Um, they I'm still learning.

Speaker:
I've got more seminary degrees

Speaker:
than a thermometer, but every

Speaker:
day I'm still learning how to

Speaker:
journey through Scripture and

Speaker:
hear what God is saying to me in

Speaker:
that process.

Speaker:
And so we want to make sure that

Speaker:
we kind of liberate God's word

Speaker:
in a way, from the covers of the

Speaker:
Bible.

Speaker:
It's not to say you don't give
people Bibles and God works

Speaker:
through that act.

Speaker:
Yes, absolutely.

Speaker:
We we gave away, I forget what
the statistic was this morning,

Speaker:
but, um, for every employee of
American Bible society, we were

Speaker:
responsible for giving away over
seventeen thousand portions of

Speaker:
Scripture each, uh, globally.

Speaker:
So I don't know.

Speaker:
Well over a million copies of
the Bible that were distributed

Speaker:
by the Bible Society last year.

Speaker:
And so cool, right?

Speaker:
That's that's wonderful.

Speaker:
Um, but I think the, the other
issue that we need to deal with,

Speaker:
besides, they don't quite know
what to do with it, um, is that

Speaker:
they're looking for new ways and
that's the, the innovation side.

Speaker:
What are the new approaches?

Speaker:
What about digital?

Speaker:
Uh, what about helping connect

Speaker:
people to just the right

Speaker:
resources at just the right

Speaker:
time?

Speaker:
What about helping pastors and

Speaker:
church leaders understand the

Speaker:
role of the Bible in promoting

Speaker:
spiritual health and leadership

Speaker:
help within their church

Speaker:
community?

Speaker:
So there are a lot of ways that
we're just trying to say, look,

Speaker:
we don't just want to hand
people a Bible, but we want to

Speaker:
tee up encounters with the
living Word of God that lead to

Speaker:
a transformed life and a life
lived on mission with God.

Speaker:
Mhm.

Speaker:
So within the American Bible

Speaker:
Society, um, CT is done articles

Speaker:
on you guys over the last few

Speaker:
years.

Speaker:
And, there's it sounds like

Speaker:
there's been just some bumps and

Speaker:
transitions for you guys as an

Speaker:
organization.

Speaker:
Um, how have you sensed the Lord

Speaker:
guiding and providing through

Speaker:
that season?

Speaker:
Um, because you've stuck it out
here.

Speaker:
You've been there eight years
now and, um, what, what has been

Speaker:
that journey for you?

Speaker:
And just seeing the, the Lord
move and work.

Speaker:
Well, I think one of the things
that I learned early on in Bible

Speaker:
society work is that, um, this
is hard work.

Speaker:
Um, there was a day, I think
when American Bible Society was

Speaker:
really all focused on printing
and distributing print Bibles.

Speaker:
And so we could kind of measure

Speaker:
our impact and tonnage quite

Speaker:
literally.

Speaker:
How many tons of Bibles did we
ship somewhere in the world?

Speaker:
And that's what's considered a
transactional problem.

Speaker:
Um, okay.

Speaker:
How many people don't have a
Bible?

Speaker:
We can kind of add that up, do
some very simple math and we can

Speaker:
distribute Bibles, But the more
important thing isn't how we get

Speaker:
the Bible into people's hands,
but it's how we get the Bible

Speaker:
into people's hearts.

Speaker:
And we call that scripture
engagement.

Speaker:
How?

Speaker:
How does the Bible get into a
person's life and then transform

Speaker:
them to where they have a
biblical worldview, to where

Speaker:
they are, have completely
surrendered themselves to God

Speaker:
and His plan for their lives.

Speaker:
And so that's a lot harder.

Speaker:
It's a complex problem.

Speaker:
And as we've leaned into that,
we found that old methods don't

Speaker:
work as well as they used to.

Speaker:
Now, to be clear, we still
provide millions of print Bibles

Speaker:
to people all around the world
who don't have them.

Speaker:
And in fact, something like
eighty percent of of Christians

Speaker:
in the Global South don't have
access to their own Bible.

Speaker:
So that's still a thing that
needs to be addressed.

Speaker:
But we're the American Bible
Society as well as being a

Speaker:
global Bible society.

Speaker:
So what about in America where
you can go buy a Bible at

Speaker:
Walmart, but you still don't
know what to do with it?

Speaker:
Um, you can find the YouVersion
Bible reading app and download

Speaker:
it on your smartphone.

Speaker:
Okay.

Speaker:
Great.

Speaker:
Love that.

Speaker:
But how do we make sure that Gen
Z, the next generation of

Speaker:
adults, has the ability to
understand Scripture and what it

Speaker:
means for them?

Speaker:
And so I think with each new

Speaker:
generation, we have to be really

Speaker:
responsive to the questions

Speaker:
they're asking.

Speaker:
For instance, when I was in
Bible college, I remember, um,

Speaker:
pretty much every single
semester for my entire time

Speaker:
there, I had to take one course
in systematic theology.

Speaker:
Um, and so you probably remember
systematic theology.

Speaker:
Dan.

Speaker:
It was, you know, what's the
nature of God?

Speaker:
What's the nature of humanity,
nature of sin, angels, demons,

Speaker:
the Holy Spirit, all of these,
you know, ologies.

Speaker:
Right.

Speaker:
And so we all, we all had to do
that.

Speaker:
And what I noticed when I hadn't

Speaker:
been in pastoral ministry for

Speaker:
very long, I remember I was

Speaker:
pastoring near you in Arlington

Speaker:
Heights.

Speaker:
And I remember thinking to
myself, you know, I spent a lot

Speaker:
of time learning the answers to
ancient, sort of timeless

Speaker:
questions about God.

Speaker:
But since I entered pastoral

Speaker:
ministry, I don't recall anyone

Speaker:
ever coming to me and saying,

Speaker:
Pastor Plake, what's the nature

Speaker:
of God or the nature of

Speaker:
humanity?

Speaker:
Or would you please explain how
theology to me?

Speaker:
I can barely pronounce
hamartiology.

Speaker:
So, um, you know, maybe I could
explain it, but nobody ever

Speaker:
asked those questions.

Speaker:
They showed up saying, hey, my
marriage is a wreck.

Speaker:
Can.

Speaker:
Does the Bible have something to
say?

Speaker:
Can you help me with that?

Speaker:
Hey.

Speaker:
I'm addicted.

Speaker:
Can you help me get free?

Speaker:
Hey, I'm desperately unhappy.

Speaker:
Can you help me find happiness
and purpose in my life?

Speaker:
And I wasn't really well

Speaker:
prepared by the training I'd had

Speaker:
to that point to answer the

Speaker:
questions that people were

Speaker:
really asking.

Speaker:
And so I think in every
generation, right?

Speaker:
We have to listen to the

Speaker:
questions that that generation

Speaker:
is asking and go back to

Speaker:
Scripture and answer them really

Speaker:
honestly.

Speaker:
Let's do the work together to
open God's Word and say, well,

Speaker:
how does it speak to the
challenges we're facing?

Speaker:
And then once we're past those
now, what's the big story that

Speaker:
the Bible invites us into?

Speaker:
Yeah.

Speaker:
You had mentioned the Bible
Project podcast a minute ago,

Speaker:
and that reminded me of one of
the principles that I've really

Speaker:
appreciated from them.

Speaker:
Um, and that that is getting
after the meditative nature of

Speaker:
studying the Bible and, you
know, taking that transition

Speaker:
from hands to heart.

Speaker:
Um, and that you spoke of, of
there's an element of, as we

Speaker:
approach scripture again and
again and again that the Lord

Speaker:
and I think the Holy Spirit
prompts in our hearts different

Speaker:
aspects of both who God is, but
how we might see God at work and

Speaker:
speaking into how we live life.

Speaker:
And, um, how, how do you see,

Speaker:
um, with the American Bible

Speaker:
Society.

Speaker:
How do you see people, uh, kind

Speaker:
of not just doing a once over on

Speaker:
the broad strokes of what is the

Speaker:
Bible, but how do we get people

Speaker:
to go into that meditative

Speaker:
practice where we're allowing

Speaker:
the Holy Spirit to speak and

Speaker:
seep into our hearts day after

Speaker:
day?

Speaker:
Well, I think as pastors and

Speaker:
church leaders, we have to model

Speaker:
it.

Speaker:
We have to really show the way

Speaker:
for the meditative reading of

Speaker:
Scripture.

Speaker:
Reading scripture is like
peeling an onion.

Speaker:
I often say when I read the

Speaker:
Bible, the Bible is also reading

Speaker:
me, and I have a responsibility

Speaker:
then to respond to what the

Speaker:
Spirit of God is pointing out

Speaker:
through Scripture.

Speaker:
And.

Speaker:
And I'm not done.

Speaker:
You know, I, I'm still on that
journey.

Speaker:
There's still challenges that
I'm facing.

Speaker:
Um, and one of the things that
we've done at the Bible Society

Speaker:
is we've tried to identify ways
that people encounter barriers

Speaker:
along the way.

Speaker:
They get stuck.

Speaker:
And one of the places that

Speaker:
people get stuck is through

Speaker:
trauma or real emotional

Speaker:
difficulties that that disrupt

Speaker:
them.

Speaker:
And it can place a barrier in

Speaker:
the way where they say, boy, how

Speaker:
could God have let this happen

Speaker:
to me?

Speaker:
It's something that social

Speaker:
scientists call negative

Speaker:
religious coping.

Speaker:
But really it's like, hey, what
if God loves me so much?

Speaker:
Why did this or that happen?

Speaker:
And, you know, pick up the Bible
and we go to the Psalms and we

Speaker:
discover, wow, there's a lot of
lament going on here.

Speaker:
I mean, you know, if you're a
Bible project fan and you've

Speaker:
gone through like their course
on the beginning of Genesis, you

Speaker:
realize that in Genesis chapter
three, God sings the first

Speaker:
lament over the failure of
humans in the garden.

Speaker:
Um, so lament is something that
we don't teach very well.

Speaker:
Um, I know in my tradition, you
know, um, you kind of wanted to

Speaker:
be a happy person.

Speaker:
And when people asked how you

Speaker:
were doing, they didn't really

Speaker:
mean it.

Speaker:
Um, I mean, they did, but they
didn't, you know, they didn't

Speaker:
necessarily have um the moment
it wasn't the trusted

Speaker:
relationship where they could
help you carry your hurts and

Speaker:
your challenges or know where to
carry them to.

Speaker:
And so a lot of times hurt
devolves into complaining or

Speaker:
gossiping or all the things that
you read about in Scripture when

Speaker:
God says, you know, when you're
hungry and you're thirsty and

Speaker:
you're hurting, I want you to
come to me, not run from me.

Speaker:
And so, uh, we've developed a
program.

Speaker:
We have a whole team here called
restoring Hope.

Speaker:
They have a Bible based trauma
healing program.

Speaker:
Um, that may be a great fit.

Speaker:
In fact, they're launching, um,
October the first, they're

Speaker:
launching a brand new digital
program that you can find out

Speaker:
about at American Bible dot org.

Speaker:
Um, just look up restoring hope

Speaker:
and you can see information on

Speaker:
that.

Speaker:
And our innovation team is
launching a, a new, uh, digital

Speaker:
web app that is, uh, matches
people based on where they are

Speaker:
in their journey with God, with
just the right biblical

Speaker:
resources and experiences to
help them grow.

Speaker:
That's at NeXTSTEP dot Bible.

Speaker:
It hasn't really been launched
yet.

Speaker:
Um, but you can go through, you
can take the assessment.

Speaker:
You might find that the

Speaker:
cupboards are a little bare as

Speaker:
we get more content into it, but

Speaker:
the idea is it's going to help

Speaker:
you understand the kind of

Speaker:
person God made you to be, where

Speaker:
you are on your journey with God

Speaker:
and with the Bible, and then

Speaker:
make recommendations of of the

Speaker:
kinds of biblical resources and

Speaker:
experiences that will help you

Speaker:
grow.

Speaker:
Oh that's excellent.

Speaker:
You mentioned NeXTSTEP dot
Bible.

Speaker:
Uh, you guys like own the Bible,
like management, is that right?

Speaker:
We do.

Speaker:
Um, years ago, when they started
coming out with more than just

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dot com and dot org and dot edu,
um, the folks that manage the

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internet We're looking for
someone to manage the dot Bible.

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They call it the top level
domain or TLD.

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And American Bible Society
raised our hand because we we

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didn't want to we didn't want to
see someone get their hands on

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that top level domain and manage
it in a way that was

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disrespectful to the Bible.

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And so there are a number of
great websites out there.

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Um, there's, you know, Catholic

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Bible, there's, uh, different

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denominations have their own dot

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Bible top level domain where

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they, they do their kind of

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Bible ministry.

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Um, we have our next step, that
Bible and a number of others

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that are coming up.

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Um, I should say, I don't know,
Dan, when you're releasing the

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podcast, but, uh, we're about to
release a new church health

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assessment that is also going to
be available at church dot

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nextstep dot Bible.

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And it's a, um, a derivative,
kind of a grown up version of

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the old reveal research that the
Willow Creek community, the

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Willow Creek Association, did
back in the day, and we were

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able to obtain that content and
the database and do our own

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research and analytics on it and
add some new things like Bible

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engagement measurements, human
flourishing measurements, that

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kind of thing.

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And we felt like it was
something we needed to do for

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the church to develop that and
release it absolutely free.

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And so it is available by about
October fifteenth.

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It'll be available at church dot

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up dot Bible at no charge

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whatsoever.

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And so if your listeners have
interest in that, they can reach

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out to us.

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That's awesome.

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I, I love that you're
intentionally moving toward

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local churches and trying to
make an impact in that sense.

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Um, I guess before we wrap up,

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you know, are there things that,

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uh, you're sensing God moving

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and working and leading where

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you get excited and, you know,

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it's there.

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You just having a broader pulse
in the research and all the work

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that you're doing.

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Um, what what are you seeing the
Lord do in this season?

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Well, one of the things that's

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really been heartening is to see

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that a thirty year slide in

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church attendance and Bible

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engagement seems to be

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correcting itself.

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Um, we had some really positive
metrics that came our way.

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In fact, uh, a Wall Street
Journal article came out about a

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year ago right now that, uh,
said, hey, Bible sales have

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increased really significantly
year over year.

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I believe they were up twenty

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two percent year over year while

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US Bible sales were down one

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percent.

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So a twenty three percent delta
on Bible sales and everybody was

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scratching their heads.

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And the Wall Street Journal is

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writing articles and Forbes is

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writing articles about this,

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like what's going on with Bible

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sales.

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And we began to get other
signals.

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We have a great ministry

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partner, the British and Foreign

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Bible Society, who released a

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report called the Quiet Revival

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Report.

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You can find that from the
British and Foreign Bible

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Society online, and you should
definitely read it.

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And basically what they were
profiling was that, um, among

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Gen Z men over the last several
years, um, church attendance in

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the UK in that group increased
by five hundred percent, five X.

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You just don't hear about that
kind of thing in demographic

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research like we do.

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And so in January, we went out
to America and we found that

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Bible users in America had
increased by about ten million

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year over year.

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We hadn't seen an increase in a
long time.

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Uh, millennials Bible use
increased by twenty nine percent

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from twenty four to twenty
twenty, twenty twenty four to

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twenty twenty five.

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And men saw a nineteen percent
increase in Bible use.

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Now, Bible use is just like they

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reach for the Bible

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occasionally, right?

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It's not not really the high
bar.

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But then when we looked at
scripture engagement, which is a

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much more robust measure of deep
engagement with the Bible, we

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also saw that growing.

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It went up in twenty twenty

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four, only eleven percent of Gen

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Z and twelve percent of

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millennials were what we call

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scripture engaged.

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But in twenty twenty five, Gen Z
went up to fifteen percent, so

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up four percent.

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And millennials went up from
twelve to seventeen percent.

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So it's this signal that we're
getting that something's going

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on among Americans.

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America's youngest adults.

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And it isn't just us.

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It's also happening in the UK.

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Um, that's like fifty percent
growth.

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It's it's tremendous.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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Four percent increase on eleven
percent is like forty percent,

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forty one percent increase.

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That's huge.

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These are not small changes,
little things.

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And so we're also hearing
Qualitatively, we're hearing

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stories of from around America
and around Western Europe that,

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um, I don't know, I was, I was
on the podcast, uh, with, I was

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hosting our state of the Bible
podcast with Justin Brierley.

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I don't know if you know Justin,

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but he leads the podcast, The

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Surprising Rebirth of Belief in

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God.

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Well, I appreciate you
condescending to meet with me.

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So. Well, Justin's a great guy.

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And, uh, he, of course, on his
podcast, which has way better

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ratings than mine.

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Uh, but his podcast had
interviewed Doctor Rhiannon

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McAleer, who is my opposite
number at the British and

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Foreign Bible Society.

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And, uh, they're working
together on the, um, Surprising

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Rebirth conference, which will
be November twenty second in

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London, at any rate, as they
were all he works, he works with

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a great publisher.

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So it's he absolutely does.

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So anyway, Justin and I were

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talking And, you know, all we

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can say is, uh, Aslan's on the

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move.

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I mean, you just add it up and
your inner C.S.

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Lewis starts screaming at you
that something is going on.

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And it's a good thing.

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I was just, uh, communicating
with David Kinnaman last week.

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He sent me a graph that they're
about to release that shows, uh,

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changes in church attendance.

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Got to check that out from the
Barna Group.

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Um, they should be releasing
that, I think, first of October.

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Um, there's just, there's not

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just one signal, there's not

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just one place where we're

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seeing a little blip, but it's

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consistent.

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It's significant and really
powerful how people are

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beginning to turn to God.

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I mean, as we're recording this,
the terrible events of the

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Charlie Kirk shooting happened,
uh, what, a couple of weeks ago?

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Now, ten days ago and Sunday,
they did the memorial service

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for him in a gigantic stadium,
um, in Arizona.

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And you just think, wow, when
would something like this have

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captured the attention of a
nation in this way?

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Not in my lifetime.

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And we've had plenty of tragedy.

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Um, but it seems that something

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new is going on, whether you're

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politically conservative or less

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conservative.

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I think it's people who are

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saying the gospel of Jesus

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Christ has something to say to

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us about the moment that we're

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living in, about meaning and

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purpose and flourishing in our

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lives.

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And I think if you're in that

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space where you're encountering

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people in that space, then

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introduce them to the Word of

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God, because the Bible's story

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is the story that we're entering

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into.

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Doctor John Plake really has
been an honor to hear from you.

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Excited to see how the Lord

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continues to work through, uh,

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through you and your efforts

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through the American Bible

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Society, through his church,

Speaker:
ultimately.

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And, uh, just really want to
thank you for your ministry,

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your service, your work and
diligence and diving into, um,

Speaker:
insights and innovation.

Speaker:
So, um, you've been hearing from
Doctor John Plake, American

Speaker:
Bible Society here on the church
around the world.

Speaker:
I'm Dan Ehrman, thank you for
joining us.

Speaker:
You've been listening to the

Speaker:
church around the world with Dan

Speaker:
Ehrman, discovering how God is

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working in and through the

Speaker:
church.

Speaker:
Practical takeaways and insights
from this conversation equip

Speaker:
church leaders like you to carry
out great commission work in

Speaker:
your local community to help
expand the impact of this show.

Speaker:
Make sure you subscribe, review,
and share the church around the

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world on your favorite platform
to learn more.

Speaker:
Hear previous episodes or
contact Dan.

Speaker:
Visit us at church around world
dot com.

Speaker:
That's church around world dot
com.