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For so many modern, driven women, life is about being more than one thing. We’re multidimensional—and so are our conversations. We carry multiple identities; we can be both mother and artist; both attorney and entrepreneur. Both clinician and CEO. Both humble and proud. Life for women like us is about both. About…all of the above. It’s about the “and”...
00:22.45
sandy
Yeah, well let's just talk about what happened so last night I was, even though last week we officially declared that we were off Instagram I still go through and just do a quick scroll for check to check for you know comments and so on and I came across this shoe ad this. Ad for these super cool shoes out of I think Norway and I clicked on it and I started to read the comments and there was one that was so funny slash infuriating to me that I screenshot it and slacked it to you and now it's the topic of our podcast.
00:56.32
heymarvelous
Um, well this is because we've decided that the most interesting conversations we have are in our Dms on slack and so now that's actually what the podcast is about so you know from real life breeds podcast episodes and I think.
01:02.67
sandy
Um, right right.
01:12.58
heymarvelous
Part of the reason why this is so interesting is because once you run a brand on the internet like we're so used to seeing people complaining or you know, kind of just making these like very stark extreme like points about.
01:16.94
sandy
Um, no.
01:31.34
heymarvelous
Who we are and who we must be and and that now when I see the comments on other brands posts or ads I'm like a little bit triggered by that because it just it sort of like reminds me of what I see myself every day but also it's I think we need to learn how to.
01:39.16
sandy
Um.
01:48.94
heymarvelous
Kind of poke fun at this a little and I think that it it creates a really interesting topic of conversation like what is going on in the human brain that you think it's helpful to rant about a brand in the comments of their social media post like let's just talk about that like what the heck is that? yeah.
01:52.56
sandy
Um, yeah, um.
02:01.19
sandy
Okay, well let's read the posts first. So we're just going to call this this person beautiful soul. That's not the whole handle. But we're just going to call her that beautiful soul said so under an ad for footwear. She said I love these but want to stop being targeted by expensive ads on Instagram. I'm broke I cannot afford anything over $40.
02:23.73
heymarvelous
Yeah, okay, so first of all, you know we have tremendous sympathy for people who are on a tight budget and not in a position to buy expensive norwegian shoes but at the same time you know like here's the deal. The internet isn't free. Nothing is free. We've talked about this before if it is not actual money in dollars that you were paying for something you're paying with something else and in this case, you are paying by being advertised to like that is how you are paying to use the platform. So I think that there's a little bit of a disconnect there. And like second of all what the heck is this shoe company brand going to do about the fact that this lady wants to stop being targeted by paid ads like they have 0 control over whether or not she's seen ads like you know that's really a decision that zuck is making and his team of leaders. Faithful. You know, faithful team members and his fife dumb like it has nothing to do with the brands that are they're just like we want to sell our shoes like these are the people the kinds of people that we think might want to buy our shoes. Yeah.
03:26.22
sandy
Yeah they're just they're entrepreneurs trying to trying to make a living It's like opening up a newspaper in 1972 and going stop showing me these ads of things I can't afford even though like they're you know, willingly opening up the newsletter or the newspaper I think. What's so funny to me is like that people not funny. It's that's not the right word but like what's interesting to me about the psychology here is they want they have their iphone and they have their free apps in their consuming content all day long and probably posting I would imagine. But they want it clean and they want it quiet and they just don't understand what you just said that it's not free like if you are going to have a beautiful app such as Instagram beautiful as in the aesthetics not necessarily the the function as we talked about last week but like you're going to pay.
04:05.96
heymarvelous
Um.
04:23.48
sandy
You have to pay somebody has to pay so there's got to be money going back and forth somewhere along the line and the the just how naive that is just drives me crazy as you know.
04:24.27
heymarvelous
Um.
04:27.74
heymarvelous
Yeah.
04:35.49
heymarvelous
I mean this is a really a deeper conversation about the economy and how it works but I I wrote an essay this week about our decision early on in our company's history to walk away from when we decided to walk away from venture and I I wrote about this one particular conversation that we had. Was an investor who talked about how foolish it was for us to be making money our first year in business because we were not participating in a quote unquote land grab which is um the way that you grow a company to extraordinary sizes in this in this day and age and I just.
04:59.19
sandy
Ah.
05:10.75
heymarvelous
I think that for me, it's very obvious that there's nothing free and that if you yourself as a consumer of a product are not paying for it then then like who is paying the question goes who is paying for it. So is it the public like is it taxpayer funded in your country. Is it world government funded. No we all know that's not true at least not directly so the way that these things are being funded is like you know early on these social media platforms are being funded by pretty much by venture capital and where does that money come from right? that comes from investors. Hedge funds. It comes from like the kinds of companies that most of us would never want to associate with like I think we're just not willing to follow the money to its like logical conclusion which all ends up in the same place right? because like this tiny percentage of people in the world own all the money. that's like that's the truth so you are seeing this ad for Norwegian footwear because you are an active participant in this economic structure that you may or may not agree with but you're by choosing to stick your head in the sand like you're still it doesn't mean you're not participating in it and I think that that is the. That to me is the bottom line and you're seeing the ad because this that this company Facebook Meta is trying to make money. The only way that they make money is by showing you ads and charging these small companies or in some cases big companies fees to display these ads and so like you just have to like what would happen.
06:45.16
heymarvelous
What would have to happen for your Instagram experience to be ad free like what would have to happen I just want someone like this to actually try to answer that question like what steps would have to happen in in the world for you to have the experience of hanging out on a social media platform and not seeing ads.
07:01.30
sandy
They probably would be like have no idea but I'm going to tell them that they would have to pay a lot of money to be able to access the to access the the app right? which is sort of what we're seeing on Twitter with some of the changes that Elon Musk is making.
07:07.88
heymarvelous
Yes.
07:15.75
heymarvelous
Yeah, yeah, yes, and it would also have way less people on it because it so it wouldn't even be the same app. It wouldn't be the same experience because part of the reason that Facebook and Instagram are what they are is because like so many people of a certain generation. Not the gen zers. But like everyone older than that is basically on these platforms because they because they were. They're free. They're quote unquote free and this is how you communicate right? like it. It costs money to livestream it costs money to have a video call with someone it costs money to send data over the internet like it just costs.
07:43.83
sandy
What.
07:52.90
heymarvelous
Money and so I don't know what has happened to our human brains that makes us think that this stuff doesn't cost any money like where does it go where how does it get sent.
08:01.31
sandy
Um, but I don't think people ask the question I don't think they even are aware enough of how technology works Facebook's free I get to play you know or in the early days play. Some free games on it and then I get to post my photos on Instagram it's free. It's always free like I don't even think they think they don't even know to ask the question I think for you and I this is so frustrating because obviously we do run hey marvelous and. Even on that side we host we pay. We pay cash money dollars to host videos content pdfs. All the things audio files everything that our clients upload? Yes, yes, yes, even the yes, all of it is data.
08:33.58
heymarvelous
Oh so much money. So.
08:42.63
heymarvelous
Um, conversations email addresses Passwords um.
08:49.89
sandy
Stored and so when somebody drops into the inbox and makes a very flippant request or you know want something done for free or wants something, tailored to them specifically. Or just wants a favor or wants the price lowered or whatever. It's like they have no idea the cost it is to us to support a single user like oblivious and I think that's partly why we wanted to do this episode is just to. Get everyone to start thinking about the technology that you use the storage that you use you know I just I I just don't think people know and I know you think that that's like what did you just say before just think 1 level deeper deeper people. Yeah.
09:30.20
heymarvelous
Well yeah, and yeah, yeah, then your lizard brain. Yeah I really wish that people more people would think just like 1 like one layer deeper.
09:40.41
sandy
Ah.
09:46.20
heymarvelous
Than that then the initial gut reaction to something isn't right or I don't like this or this isn't me or you know that that sort of like initial just Baseline uncensored human reaction that's unanalyzed. It's eye focused and it's like it's like.
09:56.88
sandy
I Want It's just it's just it's just I focused. Yeah.
10:05.55
heymarvelous
It's like temporally it's always immediate focused. It's always focused on right now this minute I don't want this or I do want this and I think that's like obviously humanity's biggest challenge is that too many people are so focused so often on me right now. What do I want right now me.
10:06.86
sandy
And now. Okay.
10:20.30
sandy
This is what I need.
10:25.35
heymarvelous
And like that's not I mean we're a species that is not does I mean maybe somebody can argue with me about this I'm not like a human biologist. But I mean I mean I took enough of those kinds of classes and I've seen the way you know. Mammals interact with one another and I don't think that we're designed to be these like solitary self-sufficient animals like that's not we need each other to survive you know I'm in the desert right now and it's ° outside and I can tell you that if someone wasn't pumping air conditioning into my house I would be like struggling to survive right now like there's a system in place where other human beings are contributing actively every minute to make it that I to make the experience of me being comfortable in my house possible and I just like everything is like that our food systems. Like ah none of us produce all of our own food all that my guess is it's like less than 5% of people on the planet are producing all of their own food at this point in time like we rely on each other so it's just this idea also here's the other part I think because technology is, something. That is a little more complicated. It's gotten more complicated and the internet is complicated for some people we behave differently around it and because of it than we would if we were just actually, interacting offline. So for example, Sandy if if you had a house someone cleaning your house.
11:49.40
heymarvelous
And you and you know they did a good job but you wanted just a few extra things done. It wouldn't cross your mind I'm guessing to say you know I know that you're done and this is what we agreed to for how much I'm paying you but could you you know? could you also like. Become a chimney sweep and clean out my chimney and could you also go and like landscape my backyard before you go I don't have any extra money to pay you for that. But you know could you just like take a few hours and do those things like it wouldn't it don't like we can see with our little animal brains that that is not fair like. Like that's not an appropriate request to make of someone when you've had an agreed upon you know decision to like I'm going to buy this and I'm going to pay you for the these you know services and this is the amount and I think when the internet because so much of it seems to happen behind this like magic door like just things just happen back. There.
12:32.25
sandy
Ah.
12:43.97
heymarvelous
And there's no humans involved and there's no energy involved and there's no cost involved right? because it's invisible to me like I don't think that we're that dumb I think that we're choosing not to think about that like I don't think that people are that simple I I choose to see human beings as being smart and. Connected and caring and humble like most of us are are by and large, really good people. So What about the internet is causing us to like intentionally not look behind the wall.
13:14.28
sandy
Because they don't know to ask the question I don't think I don't think they're smart about that area because it's invisible to them. So your chimney sweep example, it's like a person like they can witness the hours the effort the labor to do the work to clean that.
13:32.98
heymarvelous
Um.
13:33.95
sandy
House as you said nobody will ask that because it's very very visible and real in front of them what effort that would take for that person to do and it of course would not seem fair like that's just you know as you said humans needing each other in human interaction. Something completely changes and breaks when it turns into technology. How many people have asked us. They don't understand it. It's confusing Confusing. It's behind the scenes. It's like coding it's scary. They don't think about it. It's easier I've heard you talk about.
14:10.35
heymarvelous
Oh no.
14:12.12
sandy
Like when we were out like oh this is years ago Jenny when we were out at a grocery store with a friend and she was picking up cheap eggs and you were like we're buying the most expensive eggs that have all the ethical this and the dadada and dadada. Because you'd have to think about the chicken's life and she was like oh my god I've never thought about the chicken's life before and she's like we have to think about the chicken's life. You don't yeah yeah.
14:31.95
heymarvelous
I Totally don't I Totally don't remember this? No I mean it's I I can see myself saying it I'm not I don't think you're lying about it. It's it's true. It's very true.
14:40.81
sandy
They have Broken Peaks and they're in in little cages and they have terrible lives and that's why it's so cheap and you need to think about what the check The chicken experience is you to buy the more expensive eggs and that person was just like whoa I never thought of that. So I think it's the same with technology is it's invisible. It is.
14:51.33
heymarvelous
Yeah.
14:58.23
sandy
Completely foreign and unknown they have no peek into our like you know, a Cto's day or a help desks day the questions the demands the requests the work. The the the bills that we pay to maintain hey marvelous to keep it going. You know they have no idea they don't know what questions to even ask and so they pick up something. It's easy to use. It's right in front of them. Oh I'd like it a little different I don't want to see ads. Can you turn that off for me, please you know and I just don't even know that they know they can think deeper about it.
15:18.87
heymarvelous
Um.
15:36.19
sandy
I've worked retail. It's my it's my defense I have a yeah yeah yeah.
15:36.36
heymarvelous
Oh my God Sandy This is so depressing to me. It's really depressing I I guess I I mean I get it I have also I was a waitress in college. So I have I I feel like everyone should have had that job for a little while at least.
15:49.72
sandy
Um, right.
15:54.28
heymarvelous
So I I do understand but I also like I still think this is this is different because we have gotten like even as a waitress and even in retail like just to go with your example because I also worked retail like one winter at Macy's when I was in high school so I have like the. Teeniest bit of experience in retail but I did waitress for years and it's still humans interacting with each other so to me that there's still like even then there are definitely some like ridiculous requests and there are some people that are a little more needy and demanding but by and large people are human beings with each other. And then when you move to like the internet or the digital world. There is something that I don't know if it's intentional or not that turns off and maybe it's a survival mechanism I don't know again I'm not like a human bio like human biology.
16:41.59
sandy
Um.
16:48.40
heymarvelous
Expert but but to me this is the problem that needs to get solved if we're going to move forward as a species and as a society and be able to like because right now things to me are a little tenuous out on the internet like it's it's it's rough out there like people are.
16:52.76
sandy
Um.
17:06.15
heymarvelous
Are pretty awful to each other and in lots of ways and I think also you know we are making decisions against short-term self-centered decisions because either we are choosing to not think about the bigger broader context of those decisions or we are somehow. Like brainwashed into not and to not being able to think like that I don't know I I I don't I only have my own lived experience right? and so I see interconnection and so to me there are times in my life where I choose to turn it off so that I can integrate into Society. You know like it's hard. It's hard for me to do normal things like even to get in the cart like every car trip. Everything I see like every decision I make to use and anything I see the consequences like I still do them I still get on a plane sometimes but it's I Wrestle. And I just I don't know if that's just so unique to me or I'm just like bad at turning it off and other people aren't.
18:02.27
sandy
No, it's unique to you I'm sure there's lots of people like you but I don't think it's the normal I don't think it's the norm I Really don't yeah no, no.
18:10.40
heymarvelous
Ok, well, then we are in trouble at least I'm not saying everyone needs to be like me but with these people on on like on social media that are complaining about the ads like that is that is I don't know how we dig ourselves out of this like what do you think needs to happen.
18:25.19
sandy
I Don't know I think it's conversations like these to get people to ask those questions and to think that even though there's technology there's still other people on the other side. There's still other. It doesn't happen by itself. Well not yet anyway, but it's.
18:33.68
heymarvelous
Yeah, yeah.
18:39.88
sandy
Like even if we if you want a request if you want something turned off or if you want like speaking about marvelous. It's a human being that goes and toggles something on or off in your sidee or resets or checks or whatever or build something for you. It's real people and I I just I think that's the message of this of this.
18:50.55
heymarvelous
Yeah, yeah.
18:58.16
sandy
Of this podcast episode is like can we just acknowledge the humanity on the other side of that chat box or that request or or whatever it is are the ad comments that some but some entrepreneur in Norway is reading that and like oh you know, just.
19:07.50
heymarvelous
Or the ad comment. Yeah.
19:16.95
sandy
They're just trying to make a living and they're just trying to play the game to support their family and buy their expensive eggs in Norway.
19:25.56
heymarvelous
I'm pretty sure all the eggs in Norway are raised in a fair humane way having spent some time in Norway I have I I don't I didn't see any factory farms industrial factory farms when I was there but again could be wrong.
19:30.38
sandy
Um, right.
19:39.20
heymarvelous
Yeah, no I mean I think that I think that that's true and I also think I just would like maybe one day when we're when when I'm retired and I'm just trying to be a thought leader just because I have nothing else to do I would like to have more conversations about what. This what it what it means to be a human on the internet and what it means to be a responsible human on the internet and not to say that like we shouldn't have a conversation about ads advertising revenue and like how to how to deal with ads in a responsible way and ethical way but like to me showing people at like i.
20:09.80
sandy
Um, ah yeah.
20:16.47
heymarvelous
We used to like there used to be catalogs being sent and there used to be like television commercials being made and and to me like seeing ads that are targeted for you is actually a benefit like that's better. It's like better. It's better for everybody because nobody has to go print these catalogs that are just going to get thrown away because recycling is kind of a myth everybody.
20:20.90
sandy
Um, yeah, yeah, yes, yeah.
20:35.73
heymarvelous
You know I mean some paper recyclings. Ok I don't want talk about paper mills are bad. But like that was destructive too like that you know, but but like that's how business works if you don't want just like 1 or 2 big companies like Amazon running the world. You're going to have the norwegian.
20:54.56
sandy
Um, yeah, yeah.
20:54.59
heymarvelous
You know, tiny shoe company showing you ads on Instagram because that's like the only way they're going to be around Amazon doesn't need to show you shoe ads like they've already got your attention most of you most of us right? So I just I I just also like I would just like us before we knee jerk react to something that like let's just consider. Let's just consider the implications of why something is the way that it is like let's just try to understand why is this the way that it is and then have a conversation about it. That's all.
21:13.73
sandy
Um.
21:23.36
sandy
Yeah yep I think you're right. We have a coaching call. So let's jump into joy and hustle and I have a joy I have a joy of a joy. It's a small company out of Australia who I got hit with an Instagram lab ad and it's called nomad the label.
21:29.75
heymarvelous
Okay, yes, what's your joy. Ah.
21:40.81
sandy
It is a clothing company. It is linen and I just got the package a couple two days ago and it's just beautifully made and gorgeous and just really high cool. You know I don't know some of the stuff I buy on the internet specifically from Instagram hats are just terrible. But.
21:45.13
heymarvelous
Um, oh.
22:00.50
sandy
This stuff was beautiful and I just I'm just I love it. The pants I bought I love I would wear them every single day. They're just gorgeous.
22:00.62
heymarvelous
Down with Instagram ah, ah.
22:08.42
heymarvelous
Okay, so not to be confused with nomad goods for those of you feverishly googling this as Sandy's talking it's very different. Okay, no mod label I see it's very lineny. Very nice I love I love a nice linen.
22:13.86
sandy
Nomad The label.
22:23.67
heymarvelous
Okay, all right? and then my huss so I have the hustle and I'm going to talk about my fountain pen because that's but I told you I had the I told you it's a pen. So my husband bought me this for Christmas and I've not talked about it yet which is surprising. So it's.
22:28.41
sandy
Um, what let me say no, you didn't oh.
22:38.52
heymarvelous
L a MY is the pen brand. It's like it's like ah it's like metal pen and I can refill it with like a jar of ink which is fantastic. So not a single use pen and it writes beautifully and I would have never thought to buy myself a fountain pen. So I'm grateful that he got it for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
22:51.72
sandy
But is it like a like a calligraphy pen Nib or just ah oh it is looks like a calligraphy pen but it's fine point. Yeah.
22:57.29
heymarvelous
It's like legit. Yeah, but you can change this out I think you can like change out the points and you can buy all the different colors and this is like an indigo ink and it's in a glass bottle and um, it's pronounced la me l a it's l a MY but it's pronounced le me apparently I watched a Youtube video that taught me how to pronounce the name.
23:04.22
sandy
Cool.
23:16.50
heymarvelous
So I don't think it was terribly expensive I I don't know for sure I didn't buy it but it is um it is lovely and I actually like really appreciate writing with a nice pen. It's like who knew that you needed a metal fountain pen in your life in 2023 but yeah it's very nice.
23:28.51
sandy
Yeah, no, that's super cool and that's it's made in Germany of course so that.
23:35.60
heymarvelous
It's very very nice and, yeah so I don't know I don't know that I'm going to go back to cheap pens after this I think I'm like I think I'm going to use my reusable pen.
23:43.00
sandy
Hu that's super cool. So we'll all get hit by ads from la me and from nomad the label and we're just going to be okay with it it. We're just going to give it a double tap and like support these small companies trying to make a living.
23:50.19
heymarvelous
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, yes, good point. Okay, all right folks, we'll see you next time.
23:59.26
sandy
See ya.