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Welcome to The Foster Friendly Podcast. We’re bringing foster care closer to home by sharing stories from the front lines. We're talking with former foster youth, foster parents and others who are finding unique and powerful ways to dramatically improve the experiences and outcomes for kids in foster care.
The Foster Friendly podcast is brought to you by America’s Kids Belong, a nonprofit that helps kids in foster care find belonging in both family and community.
Courtney (00:01.501)
Hello and welcome to the Foster Friendly podcast. As mentioned earlier, this is a little spin-off series, doing a few episodes with Mr. Brian Mavis. I'm not going to give him an adjective because sometimes I don't like the adjectives he gives me. So I'm going to be kind. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if you want to hear it, My wise, you are wise. You're a very wise person. So my wise, I'll give it easy one. But Brian just released a book.
Brian Mavis (00:10.188)
Hello.
This is your chance. yeah, yeah, okay. I'll take it.
Courtney (00:31.367)
called Go Upstream. What's the subtitle?
Brian Mavis (00:35.176)
It's diving into foster care to heal 10 social wounds.
Courtney (00:40.357)
Okay, so we're gonna have these spin-off episodes to kind of share, walk through some of these social wounds. Some people know of them and some people are like, I did not realize that there is this connection to foster care when we talk about things like we're going to today. So today we're gonna dive into three of those social wounds, trauma, physical illness, illness and suicide and what they have to do with foster care really. So.
Brian Mavis (01:02.882)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Courtney (01:05.212)
If you missed our last episode, did do an episode, let me in our last one, our last, go upstream launch episode. It talks kind of an overview of the, of this whole book and why Brian wrote it. And it's kind of the launch to this. If you haven't listened to that, you might want to go back and listen to that just to get a little understanding of what we're doing here.
Brian Mavis (01:13.358)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Mavis (01:23.75)
Yeah, I'll give him a 22nd gist. It's that when we think of social wounds, what typically comes to mind is things like homelessness and addiction and mental health and suicide and human trafficking. And I show that most of those, well, those things, know, 10 total are downstream to the demographic that's feeding those social wounds. And that's kids who age out of foster care without
being connected to a family. So if we went upstream and helped these kids, we wouldn't have to be dealing with them as adults in one of these other wounds.
Courtney (01:55.101)
No.
Courtney (02:05.457)
Yes. Yeah. Okay. Well, Brian, let's just jump right in. Then let's get over to start talking about this first one. So the first social wound in your book is trauma. And I think that's even like a lot of people. I feel like the word trauma has taken a turn for the worse in the last, since COVID. I feel like we use this word for everything. And it's just, it's like, that's not trauma. You know?
Brian Mavis (02:11.714)
Yeah.
Yes.
Brian Mavis (02:24.974)
Yes. Yeah. I stubbed my toe yesterday and it felt traumatic. And so, yeah, I agree. I think the word trauma has been overused and cheapened. And I, but what I'm describing in chapter one about trauma is showing that kids who are in young adults who have been in foster care.
A vast majority, 80, 90 % of them have experienced legitimate trauma and I even explain what that, the complex nature of that, that there's different kinds of trauma. So I go into showing what that's all about.
Courtney (03:15.375)
Okay, so when you kick off this chapter, actually you start every chapter with a true story, right? Every chapter has its true story, a true connection to somebody that has experienced this, whatever the social wound is. And you open chapter one about trauma with an aged out youth called G. Why did you start there?
Brian Mavis (03:20.386)
Yeah, yes.
Brian Mavis (03:24.641)
Yes.
Brian Mavis (03:30.998)
Yes, so he, yeah, well, one, G lived with us after aging out of foster care. And I picked a story that was not overly dramatic, but it really illustrated the hidden nature of trauma, hiding in plain sight. So what happened was he had been living with us for a few months and we had a better mattress for him. So we were going to move the mattress he was on.
to just a storage facility so we could give him this better mattress. And so we asked for his help to move the mattress into a truck that I was borrowing. And we thought everything was fine. You know, he picked it up. And by the time we moved it out of his room to the top of our stairs, which is just, you know, 15 feet.
He just transformed and just was enraged and threw the mattress down the stairs grabbed randann grabbed it picked it up by himself a queen-size mattress and he just ran outside and chucked it into the truck and just was like Unrecognizable as far as like what happened what happened and so I got in to the trucks to take the mattress back and I texted my wife like something
you know, Captain Obvious, something triggered him and came back home and saw that he was in his room crying. And my wife explained that he had, she shared that he had lived in over 30 places. That doesn't count the places like the cars that he lived in and things like that. And always running from the police, his mom and the man she was with. And it just triggered that.
Courtney (05:20.658)
Hmm.
Brian Mavis (05:23.552)
instability that he had, that he was in constant flight mode and he wasn't safe. And what looked like a very normal, easy thing to do, move a mattress, triggered a deep pain in him. And that's what he expressed was just, my heart hurts so much.
Courtney (05:41.885)
It's hard to even listen to that because it's sadly is the reality for lot of these kids.
Brian Mavis (05:48.908)
Yeah, and like I said, as you mentioned, every chapter opens up with a true story that illustrates what that social wound is about.
Courtney (05:56.101)
Okay, so you also dive into some different kinds of trauma.
Brian Mavis (06:00.748)
Yeah, that's what again with people, I think the word is being overused and then it's also not being clearly understood. And there's different types of trauma that can be labeled. And the first one is acute trauma. And this is a one terrible event that happens. So something like a car crash or an assault on you. And that is a one time event that is that could result in a post traumatic.
disorder called acute trauma. There's relational trauma that happens, harm from a caregiver. So the acute trauma is from an incident or if it happens by a person, it's a stranger. Relational trauma is something that happens by a caregiver, a parent, or some sort of relative, and it breaks trust where love should have been. And then there's developmental trauma and it's repeated harm that happens during growth.
And so it kind of develops a person's identity as they're growing up and disforms that identity. And then finally there's complex trauma and that's the kind of the overlapping of these prolonged traumas that are relational and there could be developmental and it just, it stacks, you know, it's these different traumas that kind of stack and then it becomes complex trauma. so.
That's what I identify as being the most likely type of trauma that these foster youth have is some sort of combination of traumas that that could have experienced an acute trauma, but they've also likely have experienced a developmental and relational trauma ultimately resulting in complex trauma.
Courtney (07:54.853)
Yeah. And it's hard when you try to explain this to people that aren't in it, but every kid who's entered the foster care system is coming for some sort of trauma, right? I mean, because if it's even just relational, it's still trauma.
Brian Mavis (08:04.382)
It is, and it is. Yeah, mean, something's happened enough that it's been horrible enough that you're considered to be unsafe around the family that's meant to protect you. And so, and by the time it's discovered, it's usually been going on for a while.
Courtney (08:26.301)
I think when you just ask somebody on the street, like, hey, what do you think of, what is the word trauma? What do you think about? And they think about things like fires or war. They don't think about the things you're describing right now. And I know that most people have heard of PTSD, but most people have not heard of CPTSD. So what is that? What does that have to do with this?
Brian Mavis (08:43.194)
Yeah, so again, that is true when people think of PTSD, it's often related and it was first diagnosed because of combat veterans who had experienced a traumatic combat moment and that now they're having flashbacks and those kinds of things. And that's the typical kind of, well, let me say that there's a difference between trauma and a traumatic disorder. So somebody could have
Two people could go through the same traumatic event. And one person could come out not with a disorder and the other person could come out with a disorder. That disorder keeps that trauma close to them as if it keeps happening. PTSD tends to come back in flashbacks or nightmares or being hyper alert, those kinds of things. Whereas complex
post-traumatic stress disorder. has like shame is what it continues, a fractured identity, chronic distrust, relationship breakdowns, disassociation, that's a big alarming one, impulse control struggles. So those kinds of things are what manifest from a CPTSD.
Courtney (10:10.493)
Okay. And I think if we go back and we're thinking about the different traumas and even what can lead to see PTSD or PTSD, there's a difference between neglect and abuse. think both could cause trauma, but what is the difference? Why do you say there's a difference there?
Brian Mavis (10:12.183)
Ahem.
Brian Mavis (10:20.536)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Mavis (10:27.544)
Yes.
Yeah, know, kids go into foster care or go in, you know, two broad categories because of either neglect or abuse. And it's, you know, differs from place to place, but it's been said in general that you can maybe say a majority of kids neglect over abuse, though, again, my own experience is it's hardly that clean cut. regardless.
I used to think, okay, well, neglect isn't that bad compared to abuse at least. And I I confessed that to a counselor who's a trauma counselor. And she said, well, abuse says I hate you and neglect says I wish you didn't exist. Then she said, now which one do you think is worse? And I said, I don't know. And she goes, exactly. So it just really highlighted that
Courtney (11:26.077)
you
Brian Mavis (11:30.296)
both those kinds of harms have a unique message, but both messages are horrible.
Courtney (11:37.435)
Yeah, yeah. Sometimes even worse. mean, you know, we can't play though what's worse, what's better. But I have seen neglect places where it's been super hard for them to...
Brian Mavis (11:43.403)
Right, right, right, yeah.
gosh, When you've seen legit real neglect, it does a ton of harm to a kid in all sorts of ways. Socially, self-identity, physically, all those kinds of things. Yeah.
Courtney (12:07.261)
Give us some big picture data, that data point that should really wake us up if we talk about trauma.
Brian Mavis (12:13.676)
Yeah, so I found that again, doing a lot of research, most of the research is around PTSD. There's not as much around complex trauma. And so I found that under the PTSD category that kids in foster care had this post-traumatic disorder at twice the rate of combat veterans.
And so roughly again, nine out of 10 kids who enter foster care, not, I'd say a hundred percent have experienced trauma. Nine out of 10 have the after effects of a traumatic disorder, typically the complex kind. And so it's, it's ubiquitous for the kids in foster care.
Courtney (13:06.481)
Yeah. And I've known that that stat for years, but it is crazy when I train foster parents or I go and train a church on trauma training. I always use that. And it's amazing how many people look at me like I'm crazy. Like they just can't even believe that it is. It is mind-altering to think that these are kids in our backyards. We're going through these things and having these experiences worse or like veterans, combat veterans.
Brian Mavis (13:31.372)
Yeah, yeah. So yeah, they're in combat every day. And unfortunately, the war zone is their own home and their combatants are people who are meant to protect them. And so that's why it just messes with them so deeply.
Courtney (13:44.657)
Yeah. And then I think it goes into their brain and they start battling with their brain. Am I worthy? Am I worth belonging anything?
Brian Mavis (13:50.19)
They do. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Courtney (13:54.576)
Okay, you also mentioned misdiagnosis. Why does that happen?
Brian Mavis (13:59.117)
Yeah, CPTSD is something that is still being thought to be recognized. so there's people, there's a very popular book called The Body Keeps a Score by Diesel Vander Kolk. And he says that a lot of these kids who he would diagnose as having complex trauma disorder are, they get labeled instead
they get misdiagnosed with things like ADHD or ODD or some sort of mood disorder. And it's his claim, again, that these kids who have this complex post-traumatic stress disorder are being misdiagnosed with these other things that a lot of kids get. Then they get medicated for.
Courtney (14:37.085)
Mm.
Courtney (14:54.845)
Which is our story. Our oldest daughter came to us at 15. She has probably six diagnoses, like acronyms, came on eight medicines. And within a couple of months of being in her home, we're like, you don't need all these medicines. And I don't think this is you. I think you just have trauma and you are dealing with the repercussions of it. So we slowly got her off all those. We did other stuff, but she's now to the point. She's 23 and she's not on any medications. She still struggles with the dealings of her past, but
Brian Mavis (15:01.89)
Yep. Yep.
Brian Mavis (15:20.525)
Wow.
Sure, sure.
Courtney (15:24.817)
It's like, that's not what it was, even though that over medication, all these letters behind her name, I'm like, that's not what we need to see you as. We need to see you as how can we support you relationally.
Brian Mavis (15:27.404)
Right.
Brian Mavis (15:32.288)
Yes.
I've heard, yeah, I've heard the same kind of story from kids who've typically like have been in group homes who will say, you know, until I got placed into a family and an adoptive family or something like that, I was just drugged up the whole time. And again, gosh, I don't want to disparage all group homes. are some good ones, but I'm just telling you what I've experienced, what I've heard from kids.
Courtney (15:57.212)
Yeah, yeah, and that was her. That's where she came from. So foster families, adoptive families, people listening who are caring for kids right now like this, who have just come from hard things. So how can they respond? What can they do?
Brian Mavis (16:00.886)
Yeah.
Brian Mavis (16:12.312)
Yeah, I would say there's kind of five key things that they could do. And first of all, is to know your own triggers, regulate yourself. so again, you tend to think, well, I need to focus on the kid. They're the problem. It's like, guess what? You're going to probably all of a sudden be awakened to your own triggers by having these kids in your life. And so you need to be very self-aware of what triggers you.
and learn how to regulate yourself. Second thing would be to just have more predictability in your life. These kids thrive with clear boundaries and routines. And then focus on, this is classic TBR language. And by the way, if you don't know TBR, it's stress-based relational intervention. And the language is connection before correction.
And you tend to want to go in as apparently correct, correct, correct. And it's like, you've got to connect, connect, connect. It doesn't say don't correct, but you've got to connect first. so put 80 % of your effort into connecting before correcting. And then fourth, would say, get a little team of trauma-informed professionals who know things like TBRRI and other kinds of even body work, that kind of stuff. And then
Belonging, well, I'll call belonging rituals, having meals together, putting photos of them up on your wall, just so that they know, you know, they feel like I belong. And so I would say if you practice those five things, you would be doing the right things, regardless of the results, if they come quick or slow, and they'll come slow. So.
Courtney (17:49.425)
Hmm.
Courtney (18:00.733)
Yeah, and you'll have to hear this list all over again. Yes, for sure. Okay, then we also probably have listeners. Hopefully, I'm sure we do have a lot of listeners who are not foster parents and we don't need everybody to be foster parents. We hope for more, but not everybody. But some people are just involved in support or neighbors or family. How can other people, how can our listeners help if they can't foster?
Brian Mavis (18:04.859)
yeah, yep, and you have to keep trusting the process.
Brian Mavis (18:25.208)
Yeah, I would say healing is a team sport. And so when you see a kid in a family that's working through this together, be a part of their team. so whether that is something that you could help with mentoring or coaching, or you could provide respite care, or you can help out with transportation to their counseling, or you can take them fishing. Again, just be.
Be willing to be, there's that line of it takes a village to raise a child and I would say partly true, it takes a family to raise a child and then a village to support the family. And so be part of that village to support the family.
Courtney (18:59.035)
Hmm.
Courtney (19:05.275)
I love that. And for our listeners, we do have a trauma sensitivity training that we're in process of recording right now. It's almost released probably by we're hoping by October 1st, but it has trauma sensitivity, a short little workshop and modules for people who are not fostering to say, okay, let's dive more into this trauma. What does it look like? How can it be a better support? So I encourage you with your listening to check that out as well. Okay, Brian, as we wrap up this trauma segment, what's your key takeaway for this trauma?
Brian Mavis (19:33.506)
Yeah, I would say, I know I love a one-liner, some marketing language, but so I think I would have to say the takeaway is complex trauma happened inside a harmful relationship and healing will happen inside a safe relationship.
Courtney (19:55.556)
it. That's mic drop you can stop there. Yes, yeah but so true. Yeah and healing relationships too like all the people involved to be informed and I think that's part of what your book does is informs people. Okay so that was our first social wound let's dive into chapter two the second social wound which is physical illness.
Brian Mavis (19:57.177)
See? Right?
Brian Mavis (20:09.196)
Yeah. Yeah.
Brian Mavis (20:13.931)
Mm-hmm
Brian Mavis (20:18.134)
Yeah, this was a surprising one to me as I was doing research on what kind of wounds happen to kids because of what they've experienced that got them into the place of needing to be in foster care in the first place.
Courtney (20:33.083)
Yeah, when you, I looked through the list, it was the one that was the most surprising to me too, or the most maybe not thought out. Like I haven't really thought about this very much before. So yeah.
Brian Mavis (20:40.652)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, and so I start off with a story about a girl named Claire and unfortunately, Claire is no longer with us. was because of, she was born with a heart condition and was treated as her family unraveled and she experienced both abuse and neglect, especially neglect.
It led to all sorts of missing kind of care that she needed. And then she entered the system and back and forth. And there even with advocates who were good foster parents trying to help the system bounce her around so much that her medical care was neglected. And at 17, then she died. And so I got her story from
Courtney (21:35.133)
Hmm.
Brian Mavis (21:38.264)
her foster mom who really did everything she could to help her. But there was too much static against her at that moment.
Courtney (21:51.474)
heartbreaking. Yeah. And just makes you kind of wonder how many times things like that happen, you know, that we don't know about, but it's really sad. So we were talking about trauma, now we're switching to physical illness, how are they linked together?
Brian Mavis (21:58.915)
Yeah.
Brian Mavis (22:05.998)
Well, again, so when you, you mentioned trauma, uh, you know, and, and you pointed out specifically and rightly so that, you know, the trauma so much of what it does is mental and emotional, but trauma also is, uh, physical cellular. mean, and I mean, the book, you know, body keeps the score. Uh, and so that kind of, um, trauma and. It ends up dysregulating the stress system.
And so these kids are always on high alert and which then leads to higher rates of heart disease and stroke and diabetes and chronic pain. so it's, again, it's shocking what kind of, how it lives in their body and just wreaks havoc to their body. And then when they're not being diagnosed correctly or treated regularly, consistently, it shortens their life.
Yeah, kids in foster care who aren't connected to family don't live as long.
Courtney (23:14.509)
It's hard stuff to talk about. It's not easy to think about these things. I'm just thinking about different kids that have been in and out of my house and how I've seen these things take place. And yeah, it's hard.
Brian Mavis (23:21.334)
Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I, yeah, I mean, I, you know, I look back at and being and growing up and knowing there were some kids from hard, hard, hard homes. And I don't know if they were ever in the system or not, but I was like, gosh, their, their life must be really, really hard. Well, the ones I'm thinking about, they're all dead. Now. And so.
Courtney (23:49.01)
Yeah.
Brian Mavis (23:50.215)
you know, it wasn't from a drug overdose or from a violence. was, they, they've all died, young from disease.
Courtney (24:02.173)
So what do we know specifically about foster youth and illness?
Brian Mavis (24:06.54)
Yeah, so what I found again, the stats vary. I I looked all over the place for citing sources from journals and things like that and academic sources. But so it's a wide range. But I found anywhere from 30 percent to 80 percent, sometimes maybe close to 90 percent, enter care with at least one medical problem. So they go into care immediately. There's like there's a medical problem that they have.
And then a third of those continue with some sort of chronic condition. so, and then on with the little babies, the almost all of them enter care, medically fragile or complex, often with being prenatally exposed to drugs. And so that's, that has all sorts of physical effects on them as well. So it's a common.
It's very common for a kid in care to have a physical problem, a physical illness, even if it's not recognized or diagnosed, it's living in their body.
Courtney (25:20.024)
Yeah. Yeah. And I would say if I just think about the kids we've had, know, around 70 kids in and out of our house, I mean, most of them have come with some sort of medical thing. Yeah. So.
Brian Mavis (25:29.9)
Yeah, it's surprising. And people who enter into foster care, they're like, I didn't know there would be so many trips to the doctor. Yes, all sorts of specialties. Yeah, you end up becoming more knowledgeable than you ever imagined through the medical system because of these kids carrying all sorts of different kinds of physical illnesses.
Courtney (25:36.463)
Appointment. Yes, and different different doctors and special specialty. Yeah
Courtney (25:54.686)
You also jump into the why around neglect, abuse, and traumatic stress. Give us a sentence on each of these.
Brian Mavis (26:03.254)
Yeah, so those are the kind of the three, and I, we've mentioned neglect and abuse earlier, now we're gonna add traumatic stress to it, but these are the three big reasons why kids have physical illness. So neglect, I mean, practically what it means is missed medication, missed doctor's appointments, poor nutrition.
Zero dental care, which now we're learning has more effect on the body than just the teeth. So that's neglect. Abuse can create an acute injury. So broken bones and the internal injuries, which can also lead to long-term impairments. And then
Finally, toxic stress. It keeps the nervous system in a fight or flight mode. Damage is sleep. It damages growth. It damages the immune system and its ability to help heal. And then it also has, if you would think of the brain, not as a emotional or mental, but a physical thing itself, it also has effects on the brain. And so
Courtney (27:22.109)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Mavis (27:24.396)
those three things. A kid is experiencing one of those when they go into foster care and sometimes all three.
Courtney (27:35.293)
I'm just curious and maybe it comes up later in other more of your social wounds, but where does sexual abuse fall into this? Does that fall into the?
Brian Mavis (27:44.377)
So that, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm glad. Yeah, so I didn't, yeah, I didn't mention that. And I do talk about that later, but it would fall under the broad category of abuse where I mentioned, you know, broken bones and internal injuries. Sexual abuse is a whole different, it's abuse for sure. But it, man, it's a whole thing. And where it's not a broken bone.
And so you're like, well, it doesn't have physical ramifications. Well, it does lead to physical ramifications. And I can't describe just how horrible, what kind of damage it does to kids. It's truly awful.
Courtney (28:37.189)
And sadly, almost every teenager that's been in our home has experienced some sort of sexual abuse. Maybe not from the parents, some of them, but some of them just in their past. It's, yeah, it's sad.
Brian Mavis (28:43.02)
yet.
Brian Mavis (28:48.364)
Yeah, very.
Courtney (28:50.575)
Okay, so thinking of this physical illness, and again, like I said, I didn't think of this necessarily as one of the social wounds, but understanding now why, as a foster parent, what can we do? The first 60 to 90 days, we've got a kiddo in our care, what can we do?
Brian Mavis (29:02.85)
Yeah, so I would say you get a kid in care and you may not be thinking about their needs for physical healing. You're thinking about emotional healing or relational healing, of course, but physical. So first of all, run kind of what I called a whole child intake of medical, dental, vision, hearing, development, mental health, and
you know, get to them to all these appointments and just be a fierce proactive advocate of getting them to these these doctors. I mean, they maybe have never had a hearing test, a vision test, never been to the dentist, maybe never been to the doctor. And so just run the gamut and make sure that you can find out everything you can about how they're doing. And they get records.
establish just kind of a schedule and just do everything you can to catch them up and then help them with health routines, with sleep, nutrition, just going outdoors and movement. Help them physically get healthier and it will have all sorts of ripple effects of health into other parts of their life.
Courtney (30:31.963)
Hmm.
Brian Mavis (30:32.224)
It's underappreciated how physical health can help them in every area of their life.
Courtney (30:43.141)
Yeah. And it's just checking those boxes. It's making sure that you're being diligent as a foster parent, that you're advocating for their needs. I mean, all of it. It really is. And I tell people, the first couple of weeks of a kid coming into your care, those are the ones where your schedule is going to be the most impacted.
Brian Mavis (30:57.218)
You are yes. Yes. Yeah, you get your calendar out. Like you said in if you like checking off boxes, man, you're gonna you're gonna love your life. Lots of boxes to check. huh.
Courtney (31:04.701)
Yeah, okay and then again in turn what can the community do to jump in?
Brian Mavis (31:15.138)
Yeah, well, you know, if you're like, well, I'm not going to be a foster parent, but there are ways that you can advocate. I if you're in the medical world, I mean, just find out about helping get the word out and encouraging acceptance of Medicaid. Maybe even trying to think of like something unique, like set up, you know, just like ballparks or amusement parks have foster family days, have one dedicated
to the medical field of like, hey, we're getting foster, making sure foster kids and families are getting a special day to get all sorts of treatment. And then I think churches have a place where they could, some churches could say, this is gonna be a special kind of ministry we have where we lean into using our medical professionals to provide unique checkups and care like they do for mission trips.
Courtney (32:13.905)
Hmm. Yeah.
Brian Mavis (32:14.912)
and just apply it to your own community.
Courtney (32:18.301)
Wow, yeah, what a good idea. Okay, Brian, close us out on this segment on physical.
Brian Mavis (32:23.328)
Okay, yeah, so summing up, I would say when care, when physical care becomes consistent, bodies remember how to heal.
Courtney (32:39.023)
Yeah, so again, the body keeps its score.
Brian Mavis (32:39.598)
So God has built a body to heal, and so it just needs the right environment.
Courtney (32:46.203)
Yeah. And it's amazing how much healing can be done physically, emotionally, you know, all of this with the right care. So yeah. Yeah.
Brian Mavis (32:52.13)
Yes, yeah, can see, mean, there might, again, there might be some things that kids will have to live with for a long time, but you also, on the other hand, can see dramatic improvements quickly.
just because the body's set up to get better and it just needs people to give it the proper attention to do so.
Courtney (33:07.933)
Okay.
Courtney (33:17.373)
Yeah.
Brian Mavis (33:18.838)
Nutrition and sleep, it's amazing what those two things alone will do. Right? Yeah. I forgot. Yeah, I've forgotten how to sleep. So I wish I, I can't teach that anymore.
Courtney (33:20.893)
For us too, right? Yeah. Getting older. Okay, so we walked through trauma, we walked through physical illness, and the third social wound is suicide. Probably one of the hardest ones to think about, talk about, but very much real.
Brian Mavis (33:39.331)
Yeah.
Brian Mavis (33:42.861)
Yeah, this was a tough one. this one, I found a story about a boy named Richard Cardinal, who at 17 years old took his life after he had been placed, had 28 different placements. And they've just found in his journal, he just said, I can't take, I just can't take it anymore. He apologized that he was doing this.
but didn't want to keep having his life going down this road. And I would say that
I have people that I care about deeply who have gone through the agony of having lost a child through them taking their own lives. And I'll say there's a...
The one thing that I hope that provides some consolation is the kids that I know, the families I know, they did not think they weren't loved. They knew they were loved, but they were still struggling. And so they took their lives in spite of knowing that they were loved. The kids in foster care, they didn't do it in spite of...
Courtney (35:05.405)
Thank
Brian Mavis (35:12.118)
knowing you were loved. They did it because they felt like no one cared.
Courtney (35:16.765)
Yeah. So what is that risk? What's the risk of a kiddo in foster care versus?
Brian Mavis (35:21.504)
Yeah, it's dramatic, I think. I found in the sources that I've cited in the book that kids who've been in foster care, aged out, are up to five times more likely to actually die by suicide. And they're
four and half or four times more likely to have even attempted. those who haven't died by suicide, they're still at a far just higher rate of trying to take their lives. And so it's huge factor in their lives.
Courtney (36:08.261)
Yeah, I it's I think we all would say that suicide is already one of those just needs to be a major focus across the United States right now.
Brian Mavis (36:15.64)
Yeah, it's increased in general. And so it is an issue that needs to be paid attention to. But it's way, way magnified for kids who've been in foster care.
Courtney (36:31.003)
Yeah. So what are some of the drivers to that that you name in this chapter?
Brian Mavis (36:36.01)
Yeah. And so, the, what, what seems to push them. And I said in general, this idea of not feeling cared for, but it's chronic instability. Like this, the story opened up with, mean, 28 different placements, some, in group homes, some in, like juvenile places, just moving all the time and just like, we, don't want you anymore. We don't want you anymore. We don't want you anymore. So.
That's, and those losses that come from that, they've also, it seems to have had exposure to violence. so that just becomes, violence to themselves seems not so strange. They're hopeless about the future. They don't see their lives getting any better. That's a huge one. And so that's why hope is such an important thing, but they can't see it. And...
and then in general, it's just kind of all those things. It's, I, it's not just like one thing. It's all those things I mentioned, they compound. And so, there are, course, people who've had losses in their life or had abuse or have been exposed to violence. It's the compounding of all those things that really pushes them into thinking, I don't want to live anymore.
Courtney (38:03.264)
Hmm. Yeah. And I just can't imagine. mean, I just grew up in such a loving, caring, nurturing, healthy household. That's the one thing that's hard for me as a foster parent sometimes is I have empathy, but I don't understand. And so it's a little different than my husband who, my husband experienced suicidal ideation. So he can talk to them at that level. But for me, it's just like, I need those reminders because it is, we foster primarily teens and almost every single one of them has been.
Brian Mavis (38:19.084)
Yeah, you haven't experienced. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Courtney (38:32.605)
checkmarked the suicidal ideation thing. And it's just something that comes up and it's always a worry of mine. What if something was to happen in my house or what if not because just because it would hurt so badly to feel like I didn't do something even though I know that that's not true. But okay, so you also addressed self-injury and talked about that a little bit. How can we understand that?
Brian Mavis (38:39.788)
Right? Yeah.
Brian Mavis (38:43.98)
Yeah, yeah, yes, yes.
Brian Mavis (38:51.746)
Yeah, I did a little kind of call out box there because I just felt like this needed to be at least addressed because it's so common in the foster care community. self-injury and the way the way to think about it is it's a what do I call a maladaptive coping tactic. And so I wouldn't say it's attention seeking, but what it's it's usually done for two.
what seems to be contradictory or at least conflicting reasons, but they're both legitimate. Some will cut themselves, that's typically how it's expressed. They'll cut themselves because it numbs overwhelming emotions that they have. They're just like overcome by emotions and if they cut themselves it almost feels like a.
a release valve of and something that they can have control over. And then on the other side of things, kids sometimes do it because they feel nothing. They feel numb and they're just trying to have a feeling. so physical pain, it feels better than feeling nothing at all. And so I would say, you know, one, it's dangerous.
And but also if the way to look at it is and say this is attention-seeking and said, think this kid is saying, I don't know how to express my pain in words. And so to have that point of view towards it again, so it's not suicide, but it seems to fit in that broad spectrum of.
Courtney (40:38.727)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Mavis (40:46.286)
of physical self-harm.
Courtney (40:48.495)
Yeah. And going back to the TBRI, you know, some of the stances, one of the things is there's a reason behind every behavior. So getting to the root of why is this happening and supporting them in that and not, not freaking out. Cause I've seen foster families do that too, of, know, being unsupportive when they just freak out rather than calmly and.
Brian Mavis (40:55.074)
Yeah.
Brian Mavis (41:05.174)
No, yeah, you've got to get, yeah, you've got to get genuinely curious why would a child do this or a teen do this to themselves or aged out youth? Yeah.
Courtney (41:18.311)
So kind of speaking on that, foster parent is concerned about suicide risk ideations. What should they do?
Brian Mavis (41:24.482)
Yeah, I there's a, you know, I list more than a few things, but I'm going to just say three things here. I mean, first of all, just, you just got to ask them, are you thinking about killing yourself? And I know that sounds very blunt, but it does not plant the idea. You've just got to go there and not beat around the bush and ask them, are you thinking about killing yourself? And then,
You'll also just again, real practical is secure your environment. Remove lethal means. know, there's, it just look for those things that you think, gosh, I've got, you know, sleep medication or easy access right here or something like that. so just remove lethal means. then on the other side of the coin, just increase supervision. Just
kind of know where they're at and what they're up to. And then thirdly, just get more help for yourself. And so, you know, make sure the school counselor is aware if you feel like there's ideation on this and so that you're just not doing it alone. And then there's also a call or text line for those who are dealing with this issue. And the number is 988.
So if you call that, they're trained people to help someone struggling with those thoughts.
Courtney (43:06.117)
And correct me if I'm wrong, but that phone number, I think I was taught was for caregivers, people, anybody, but also for an individual. Like give it to a teenager if you feel like.
Brian Mavis (43:13.934)
Yeah, Yes, so yeah, thanks for pointing out. So as the caregiver you can call it and say, yeah, I've got somebody who I'm concerned about, but also the youth themselves. Let them know like hey, if you're ever feeling really. Thinking about this a lot. And I'm not around or you're afraid to tell me call this number not 911 but 988 and.
they'll be there to help.
Courtney (43:46.653)
Good to know, good to pass that on to other people as well.
Brian Mavis (43:49.326)
Yeah, yeah, 991 everybody knows that one, but I don't hardly anyone knows 988. Yeah
Courtney (43:51.718)
Yeah. Okay. How can our listeners who don't foster still save lives? This is one thing, 9-8-8. All of us need to remember that now, but what's another thing we can do?
Brian Mavis (44:03.426)
Yeah, and so it's a little bit, feels a little repetitive, but like the medical physical help, make sure that you're aware of like school-based mental health, understand what's going on at the schools. If you have...
If you're a counselor, that you kind of take the lead on that where kids are at, that they're, be sure you can get help. And then spread the word about 9-8-8. Again, it's a super important resource that hardly anyone is aware of. And then know that suicide is often
mitigated in those thoughts just through connection and meaning and hope. that be that person who is speaking hope into their life.
Courtney (45:16.967)
Yeah. Such good, great advice for all of us to really be considering. I know I just feel like sometimes I'm so thinking about myself or my kids and my situation. I can walk, you know, along the streets or be in a store and see somebody that I can just tell they're struggling, you know, emotionally, mentally. And is there anything wrong with walking up to somebody and be like, Hey, are you okay right now? And just asking that simple question, you know.
Brian Mavis (45:36.524)
Yeah, yes. Yeah, so that alone, yeah, it surprises people when they're like, gosh, it breaks them out of their stupor. Like somebody saw me and asked if I'm OK.
Courtney (45:43.677)
Hmm.
Courtney (45:51.71)
I almost said as a past pastor, but I'm like, you know what? think it's kind of like once a pastor, you're always a pastor. just, you are a pastor. Brian, what's your pastoral advice that you would speak over this whole segment?
Brian Mavis (45:56.794)
ha!
Well, it would be something that my former pastor mentor said to me or said years ago in the 1990s in a sermon that has always lived with me and that is hope is greater than memories and that people live with such pain, painful memories and that can lead them to thinking there is no hope.
But if you can paint for them that a future, like it can get better, that you're not always, the future can be better. And then it's for the idea then is that the future and hope can outweigh the pain of harmful memories.
So, as he would call, he was a hope dealer, not a dope dealer.
Courtney (47:02.813)
Tealer. Okay, I like that. kind of like you sharing earlier, like these kiddos, they were harmed in relationships, they're going to be healed through relationships. What's another one liner that we can remember for closing this out?
Brian Mavis (47:14.743)
Yes.
Brian Mavis (47:20.236)
Well, belonging beats despair. so again, it comes back to let them know that you care about them and that you are, you know, that you are asking, how are you doing? And that if they feel like they belong somewhere, then that has surprising power over despair.
Courtney (47:48.328)
Great reminders. And I just hope that our listeners gained a lot of this conversation around these three things, but also ultimately I hope they'll buy your book because it is a help for all people. Not even just youth who are in foster care. I mean, it goes beyond looking at the grand scheme of humanity, and think about the things that harm us and hurt us. specifically speaking, we are a foster care organization, so thinking of these kids who
Again, a lot of people don't realize they're in your backyard, they're your neighbor down the street, they go to school with your kids. This affects all of us, these kids and their futures and the hope that they have is affected by all of us. So thanks for the conversation today, Brian. Our next episode, we're going to cover the next three social wounds in chapters four through six, sex trafficking.
Brian Mavis (48:18.52)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brian Mavis (48:27.213)
Yeah.
Courtney (48:38.671)
addiction and poverty and how they're going to connect, how they do connect to foster care and how we can support this. Again, whether we're fostering already or never going to foster, but we want to support kids or families and youth. Again, something all of us should care about. So anything you want to end us with, Brian?
Brian Mavis (48:52.11)
Great.
A good family is better than a great program. That is the theme of the book, start and end with that idea. so, big believer that family is the ultimate social program.
Courtney (49:11.783)
Okay, well thanks Brian. Again, go check out the book, it's in the link, the link to purchase it will be in the show notes or look it up, go upstream by Brian Mavis and you'll easily find it. So, we'll see you next time.
Brian Mavis (49:12.622)
You
Brian Mavis (49:24.921)
Thank you. All right.