J.R. Briggs - Why Are Leaders In The Church So Messed Up?

Show Notes

J.R. Briggs - Why are leaders in the church so messed up? by Browncroft Community Church

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Peter Englert: Welcome to the Why God Why Podcast. My name is Peter Englert. I am one of the hosts of this show. We are brought to you by Browncroft Community Church. We respond to the questions that you don't feel comfortable asking in church. We are so thankful for our wonderful producer, Nathan Yoder. Today, we're asking the question, why are leaders in the church so messed up? And I think we're asking this because many of you've listeners have said that you've listened to The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill and you've heard of other ministers and pastors falling. And we are excited to have from my old neck of the woods, J.R. Briggs here. So, J.R., how are you doing today?

J.R. Briggs: I'm doing great, Peter. Thanks so much for having me on the podcast.

Peter Englert: No, it's great. Well, before we get into this interesting question that many leaders have, why don't you just share a little bit of your story and just how you landed and where you are today?

J.R. Briggs: Yeah, so I knew even in sixth grade that I'd be in ministry. Some people have a call to ministry at a different age. For me, it was sixth grade. It wasn't the hallelujah chorus and the angels coming down from heaven. It was just realizing this is an important investment in my life. And I believe that was God's call in my life and grateful to have served in all various forms and expressions of ministry. So, I've worked in house church networks and church plants and two megachurches. And so, I've had a chance to see God at work. And so, one of the things I've learned that God's put me on this Earth to grow fruit on other people's trees, to create good kingdom mischief, to follow Jesus, to equip and empower hungry kingdom leaders. So, that expression of that has changed.
So, I was a pastor in a local church for 15 years. And now, I started an organization 10 years ago called Kairos Partnerships that helps to come alongside of shepherds and leaders, hungry kingdom leaders, some pastors, some not, and to equip them through coaching and consulting, writing and speaking and teaching. So, in some ways, I feel like I moved from being an ER doctor to now working at a teaching hospital teaching doctors how to be in the ER. And so, anyway, it's such a joy. I still get a chance to live out my calling. It just looks a little bit different, because I don't have a congregation per se, but I care for those who are caring for people.

Peter Englert: I really appreciate that. And I think the first time that I heard about you is I read an article that I think you wrote for Christianity Today about being a failed church planter. And I want to ask you that question, because what do you think that did for you that maybe these other leaders that are falling? What did that do for you spiritually that you might see as negative, but also beneficial?

J.R. Briggs: Yeah, yeah, great. It's a great question. And just to clarify, I was working at a megachurch and things went south. And it's from there, we led to plant our church. So, I'm not necessarily a failed church planter. Some might think I am, but our church is still going and thriving by God's grace. But being in that role of experiencing a lot of failure in a public stage and I detail it in my book called Fail, but how we respond to failure is going to show us a lot about who we are, what we believe about God, and our character. And I learned a lot through that. And that's one of the reasons we actually named our organization Kairos Partnerships, because failure is always a kairos moment.
The two words for time in Greek, chronos and kairos, chronos, chronology, 3:45 on a Tuesday afternoon or something. But those kairos moments, they'll make us better or bitter, but they'll never leave us the same. And failure is always one of those kairos moments and invitation of the in breaking of God. And so, anytime there's a failure, I think that the leaders that I respect, the pastors who have great depth, they're the ones that are saying, "What is the invitation from Jesus in this situation?"
And I was just talking with a shipwrecked church planner this morning down in Florida. And I just said, "What is the invitation from Jesus in the midst of this perceived failure, this huge conflict and issue that he's having to deal with right now?" And the questions that we ask around failure will determine a lot about who we are and how we respond. Is it, "Why did this happen to me?", or is it, "This happened to me. How will I respond? How will I still cling to hope, not just from the neck up, but also from the neck down?" And so, some of the crucible moments are often marked by questions. And I think it's important that we're asking the right questions, especially in the midst of failure.

Peter Englert: I really appreciate that and just your authenticity. And I want to come back to our listeners, because most of our listeners aren't pastors. They're de-churched, unchurched. They have a lot of questions. And at the time of this recording, The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill has been this huge podcast. People are listening to it. And just this week, we had another Christian leader resign in failure.
And I guess, I'm just wondering, someone might listen to this four years down the road and there's another podcast about a church that fails. Why do you think so many people are interested or want to listen to it? And maybe I'm just going to get some free therapy from you. It was almost a collective somebody knows my story, because some people think people are just angry at the church or upset, but I felt triggered. I didn't realize how much I was hurting. I don't know. What have you noticed about this phenomenon?

J.R. Briggs: Yeah, and I think you're picking up on this, Peter, very clearly as to what a lot of leaders are feeling. As I've coached different leaders, many of them, faith leaders, there was a period of time, Peter, where in a given week, there were at least three or four leaders I was working with that wanted to unpack the most recent episode of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill. And after a while, I realized it's because a lot's being triggered. You used that word, but they're saying, "This is my context. It may not be in Seattle and the pastor's last name may not be Driscoll, but this is me. This is what's happening to me." They're also second guessing themselves as leaders, saying, "Am I doing this without even realizing it?"
And so, it's been a good way of thinking through, "Am I a part of the problem? Am I perpetuating a system that doesn't and shouldn't continue?" And Christianity Today has received a lot of pushback on, "Why are you doing this to disgrace the church?" From what I understand, Mike Cosper, I don't want to speak on his behalf as the producer of that podcast, but he basically said, "We're trying to just bring the light what happened, and then also make sure as a preventative measure, this doesn't happen in the future."
And in some ways, what we're trying to do at Kairos Partnerships is make sure that people are healthy so that the Christianity Today doesn't have to do another season about another church or another leader. Jesus talked about this. He said that the teachers of the law, they lured it over people, but not so with you. And I think that we're in a season right now of needing to learn a new form of leadership. And we've always elevated and idolized the celebrity, guru, brilliant person, normally a White male up, up front who's full of charisma and is very articulate, but to realize that we do need a different leadership model that isn't some celebrity person with all the answers up front.
There's an adage that says, "We don't need a sage on the stage. We need a guide on the side." And what we're noticing is a lot of the lower younger generations are actually saying, "We just want a guide on the side, someone who will walk with us and journey with us in this." And you're right, that list keeps growing longer and longer, which is sad, but it comes to a point where it's sad and disappointing but no longer surprising. And that's hard. That's hard.

Peter Englert: So, I want to start with a positive because I loved where you went with that. If Jesus was leading a church today, what do you think would be hallmarks of his leadership in a 21st century digital context? I'm sure you've wrestled with that question of what it looks like.

J.R. Briggs: Yes. And some of it is conjecture, but some of it isn't. We can actually see what Jesus said, and some of the things that should remain and he demands and requires and expects of us. You're aware of this, Peter, but the word church is only referenced three times in the gospels and two of those references are in the same verse. And yet he talks about the kingdom of God, the rule and the reign of God. He talks about it all the time, hundreds of times. And I think that we've forgotten that the purpose isn't the church. The purpose is the kingdom of God that is expressed within a local church setting.
Dallas Willard who had a huge influence on me and many others, he said that the local church should be a beach head of kingdom activity. It becomes the place in which the rule and the reign of God is lived out. And so, Jesus talked about the markers of that and those markers being one of service and of dying to ourselves in the way of the cross and having Jesus as our apprentice. We are the apprentices of Jesus. He is our rabbi, our master teacher. And so, I think the first thing is that the kingdom of God is front and central, front and center in all that we're doing, number one. Number two, that it's always marked by love. There's that song that they will know we are Christians by our love, by our love.
But I think that, unfortunately, we think over the last several years that they will know we are Christians by our political statements or our bumper stickers or our really cool attempts to make church cool and relevant again. I just don't see Jesus' push to make church relevant and hip and cool. And I'm not saying we should be irrelevant, but I think it's making the good news that the kingdom of God is here, that Jesus is here to rescue and save and redeem and heal us and invite us into life with him to the fullest. That is front and center in all that we say and think and do. And we can actually be apprentices of Jesus, the master teacher, who is brilliant and is the best way we could invest our lives.
And I think creating an environment where it's less like a classroom where you sit and passively take notes and wonder, "Is this going to be on the test?", where it's much more like a laboratory, a greenhouse, or maybe even like a gym where we're there to actually work this out and to learn from a trainer who will teach us how we become healthy and get in shape and that we actually do it. We don't just learn about it from the neck up. So, I've seen movements of that, of churches beginning to do it that way, but that is how Jesus did it. If I could, for a second, Peter, one of the things when I work with leaders, I remind them that Jesus took his followers on three types of field trips. He took them on literal field trips, right?
I mean, so much of what he did was outside of a building, outside of a religious building, outside of the synagogue. So, he said, "Look at the birds of the air. Look at the ladies of the field. Look at that widow putting two mites in the temple treasury," right? So, he's actually using everyday life. So, he takes people literally on field trips. They walk around everywhere. Number two is he took them on emotional field trips. He told them lots of stories. Everything was a story, right? And there's a verse that says, "And he taught them nothing that did not include stories."
And then number three, he took them on mental field trips and that he asked a ton of questions. He asked over 300 questions. He was asked over 180 questions and Jesus only directly answered, according to my study, 5 of them, but how he interacted with questions was really important. So, he took people on literal field trips, he told stories, he asked questions. So, what do we do in churches? We put them in a building. We give them statements and abstract truth and we tell them, "We don't ask questions." And then we sit around and wonder, "Why is no one changing?" I think if we can return to the way Jesus taught people how to be his followers, his apprentices, I think we would begin to see a church that looks a lot more like Jesus.

Peter Englert: Wow, that's super helpful. And I think that's a vision for our listeners because we don't know what works or we know what doesn't work. So, I want to give you this scenario. You have a 22-year-old. You're sitting down with coffee. They've never been a part of the church. They don't know anything really about Christianity, but they're noticing these headlines of these pastors resigning and they're sitting down with you and they go, "What's the deal? Why does this keep happening?" How would you explain that to that 22-year-old?

J.R. Briggs: Yeah. First thing I'd say to the 22-year-old is I'm sorry, because as someone who is a part of church leadership and helping church leaders, we've not represented our master teacher well. And so, that'd be the first thing is to say, "If you're confused or you're hurt or you're scratching your head, so am I. And I would want to say, I'm sorry." Number two, I would say that oftentimes, the structure of church today, I think, makes it nearly impossible to live fully into the way that Jesus had in mind. Remember, the church in the first 300 years, Christians didn't even have a physical edifice. And I'm not saying that physical buildings are bad, but they had no seminaries. They had no denominations. They had no buildings and yet the church exploded.
And so, I think that to say the challenge is that there needs to be a rethinking, a massive radical rethinking of the structure in which church leadership and how we do church, how it needs to change. And so, I hope that there would be humility and repentance as I talked, but even as I talked, I'd want to do a lot more listening. I probably want to ask several questions. And I think that's the posture of the church, especially church leaders. It needs to be about listening. I would want to say, "How has this hurt you? What questions do you have?"
I'd want to talk about the brilliance of Jesus. So, I'd wanted to say, "What is it about Jesus that interests you, fascinates you, frustrates you, confuses you? Let's start there, because the beauty of Jesus in his way is what should draw us to church, not the structure of the church." But anyway, I'd want to do a lot of listening. And by the way, I've had lots of cups of coffee with 20 somethings who are... That's not theoretical. That's real. And I have apologized and said, "It's not right. And I don't want to be a part of pushing that ball down the field." And the times I have, I've needed to repent of that, but that there's a better way.
I'd want to remind the 20 something sitting out and down for coffee and as I do with others, there are also lots of stories of beauty and obedience and of living in the way of Jesus that don't make the papers. There's lots of evidence of faithfulness, of people giving generously to the poor, those who are caring for those that no one else would care for, giving dignity and respect to people. So, the headlines do highlight some truths, but the headlines also don't highlight many of the beautiful things that are happening as well. And so, to make sure that we don't neglect the things that just aren't making the headlines, that there are evidences that the kingdom of God is being pursued and sought by followers of Jesus, even if it doesn't end up on the evening news.

Peter Englert: I'm really glad you brought that up, because I could imagine to some of our listeners who are engaged with this question, wherever they are spiritually, that last point, the vast majority of pastors, the vast majority of churches may not be perfect, but they're doing their best to serve God faithfully, to live out the values of the kingdom. Is that a cop out, or for someone that really serves church leaders and churches in the vulnerable, do you really believe that?

J.R. Briggs: Yeah, it's both. We've screwed up. We have not done this well, but also, let's make sure we don't forget this. I mean, forget the news or headlines. And then I do this a lot. I've done this in the past with those that don't attend a church. I'll just say, "Hey, I'm not trying to bribe you, but I would like to invite you to come to our church. And then afterwards, I'll treat you to lunch and I just want to ask you a series of questions like what did you see? What did you notice? Where was there evidence of good? Where was there confusion? You go, "Why the heck do you guys do that?" And then where are the things that you're pushing back on that isn't right? Because I want to hear it." I mean, my eyes have been open to that.
So, I think there's a mixture of that. But knowing that one more system, one more program, one more this or that, the self-improvement is not going to get us out. It is all about the grace and mercy that we all need. And one of the things that we do at our church and with communion every week and I led communion a couple weeks ago at our church. And I reminded them that the communion table that we have, the round communion table, and we all stand around it and I gave just 5 or 10 minutes of thoughts and I just reminded them that communion table is flat. If that communion table was diagonal, where one side of the table was higher off the ground than the other, all the elements would slide off on the ground, would fall to the ground, but it is flat.
In other words, what we say, we say this one line before we invite people to come up to receive communion is we say, if you are here to receive grace and mercy from Jesus, you are welcome at the table. If you are here to receive grace and mercy from Jesus, you are welcome at the table. And it's on that basis, not on coolness or size or our hip factor or how loud our music is or how modern we look or how tight our skinny jeans are, whatever metric we want to use. It's, "Are we coming to receive grace and mercy from Jesus?" And then in responding to that, how do we live a life that is congruent and consistent with our master teacher, Jesus? Is it always going to match up? Of course not.
People say to me all the time, Christians are hypocrites and you know what I say? You're right. We're the only ones that admit it. And I think that's really important, because when we come to the table to receive grace and mercy, we are acknowledging first and foremost, with humility and confidence, I am a hypocrite. I have not lived this week in a way that's consistent with the standards of who God is and I need help. And that's why I need Jesus and that's why I'm here.

Peter Englert: So, something that I think is important to talk about because we're asking this question, "Why are leaders in the church so messed up?", Tiger wood fails. He does his PR... PR might be a bad word, but he had to give a statement. He wins the masters and it just seems like there's redemption. We'll go to Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton gets impeached. There was definitely some conversations about that and just his moral failure. And I'm not trying to down them, but I guess my curiosity is in our American culture, we're hard on people when they fall. If they do the right things, then we bring them back and it's a redeemable story. What is it about religious leaders and pastors and church leaders that's so different in American culture than a president, a golfer, or a CEO that falls?

J.R. Briggs: Yeah, that's a great question. The New Testament talks about, "Be careful for those of you who want to be teachers, because you will be judged more severely." That's important, because if we're calling people to a way of life but we're not living it ourselves, that's a very dangerous place to be. Jesus reserved his anger, especially for religious leaders who are living incongruously to the way that he came to give to people. And I think that's really important.
In Matthew chapter six, in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus says, "Make sure that when you are giving money, when you are praying that you are not doing it to be seen by other people." He said, "Do it privately." And I think that's there as a way of a measurement and some guardrails to make sure that we aren't tempted to show off, right? And so, we always use the word hypocrite, oh, hypocrite. Jesus actually steals that word from Greek theater, because in Greek theater, somebody who would walk across the stage, but they would have ginormous heads as masks, right? Disproportionately huge heads and then small bodies, that was from Greek acting. A play actor that would wear a ginormous mask who was performing was called a hypocrite.
So, Jesus says, "Stop being a Greek drama play actor, religious leaders." And then he has this really interesting line, which I'm not even sure I fully understand, Peter, but I think it's in Matthew 23. He says, "And the religious leaders," he said, "what they tell you to do, do what they say, but don't live like they live." That's a fascinating line, because I've always thought about religious leaders as like, "Don't even listen to them." But actually, he says, "What they teach is good, but don't model your life after them." And that's some harsh things. And I want to make sure that we are living our lives in a way that when people follow us, they actually are following Jesus. Here's what it says. I just pulled it up.
Matthew 23, it says, "The experts of the law and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat. Therefore, pay attention to what they tell you to do and do it, but do not do what they do for they do not practice what they teach." And we cannot be Greek theater actors, hypocrites. Sometimes there's a sense of legalism and we never give them a chance to recover. And then there's a time where there's cheap grace. Oh, I'm sorry. And then we restore them the next week. And so, it takes a lot of wisdom to know the balance on that, but think of the great figures of history and especially throughout the Bible, right? Moses is a murderer. David is a murderer and an adulterer who God calls a man after his own heart.
I'm not rationalizing any of this behavior, but I just know that God uses big screwups along the way. Elijah was suicidal in First Kings 19. There's just lots of people. There's a lot that Abraham does with Sarah that man, he would not win husband of the year. And yet somehow God uses these people through grace and mercy. And how that all works out, it requires a ton of wisdom, but there is an extra measurement. And I think that's why the New Testament says, "For those of you who want to be teachers, you will be judged differently. Be very, very careful."

Peter Englert: Wow. That's sobering for me as a pastor to hear, and it's a good sobering. So, what do we do with we have these teachers that are judged differently. They're imperfect people and I put myself in there. With the Mars Hill Podcast, I feel the same way, how have I been hurt, but how have I hurt other people? So, I'm wrestling with that. But how do we treat church leaders with the grace and truth of the gospel of, "This person isn't perfect. There's times that they're going to get it wrong. They are called to a different standard"? I mean, how would you encourage someone in the church to live that way? My wife's a mental health therapist. The word I keep coming to is differentiation. How do we do that well?

J.R. Briggs: Yeah. I think the first thing if we're a part of a congregation is to remember to see our pastor first as a person before a pastor, that they have a life outside of that. That is what they do. That is their calling, but they're a human being first. And I think when pastors get in trouble, it's when they see themselves as pastor first and human second. And if we can start by realizing that there is a humanness to everyone, including pastors, maybe especially pastors, I think that's the most important thing to let your pastor be human, to realize that your pastor has limitations, to realize that your pastor cannot do everything. I think the expectations we often place on pastors are absolutely crushing.
I just saw a comic literally just an hour before hopping on here and it was a pastoral search committee. And in the comic underneath it, it says basically where we're looking for an innovative pastor with the fresh vision who will inspire our church to remain exactly the same. And that is true. The amount of pressure on pastors is really crushing. And Peter Drucker, who was the organizational guru, he passed away a handful of years ago, but he studied all sorts of leadership systems. As far as I understand, he was not a person of faith, but he said the four most difficult jobs in America were president of the United States, president of a hospital, president of a university or college, local church pastor.
This is someone who studied how organizations run and not a person of faith. I mean, this is long before the pandemic. It's just been really, really hard. That's not to give a pass to every pastor, but it's simply to say, if you're in a congregation, I want to encourage you to remember that your pastor is human, who has limitations, who has bad days, who has stresses and difficulties and is far from perfect. And I think if that's our starting point, that's really helpful. Number two is to realize that the goal of church is not to know your pastor. The goal of church is to know your God and your pastor will help you do that.
But simply believing that you have 24/7 access to your pastor, it sets you up for failure and it sets your pastor up for stress that pastor shouldn't have on them. And so, our expectations, I think, need to be more realistic of what it means to be church. We're not giving them a pass. It just means that we've got to see them not as having an S on their chest and a cape that they wear, that they're humans called to a role, but they will not do it well. They will not be perfect. They will screw it up. They will mess up and make mistakes. And hopefully, pastors will be quick to say, "I'm sorry, I did this wrong. I made a mistake. I sinned. I ask for your forgiveness." And that should be modeled a lot quicker by pastors today than it is, but let's remember that pastors are human first.

Peter Englert: So, let's say I'm a listener. I'm part of a church and I have an issue with my pastor. You coach a lot of pastors. You are a pastor. What's the way that you'd encourage someone to handle that situation? And I say that in the backdrop of cancel culture too, because on one hand, we have the, "I disagree with my pastor, but I'm not going to say anything," but then we have the, "Hey, we're just going to cancel this person." And there's some things in between. How would you challenge a person to handle that?

J.R. Briggs: Yeah. Great question. Great question. I think there's a few mental models, a few questions, a few filters that I might use and all of this under the important banner of wisdom. I think James 1:5 is so important. If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God who gives generously and without finding fault and he will do it. And I think that's really important that we have wisdom in this. So, I think the first thing would be there's a bullseye target that we use, where we talk about absolutes, convictions, and preferences. Sometimes there are absolutes that need to be addressed, right? Outside of the absolutes, it becomes heresy. It becomes an absolute issue of sin or whatever, but what are those absolutes?
So, to ask, "Is it an absolute?" If not, is it a conviction where you may have a strong conviction? I may have a strong conviction. It may be different, but it's not an issue of sin. It's not an issue of orthodoxy. And then that third outer ring is that of preference. It could be volume of music, type of music, what you wear to church, whatever it may be. If your church meet a sanctuary, does it meet in the gym? Those are preferences on the outside ring. And I think if we can understand, "Am I going to my pastor because this is an absolute, or am I going to my pastor because this is a conviction, or am I going to my pastor because this is a preference of mine that's not being met?", I think that's really important, number one.
Number two is then to ask, "What is my motive?" Our motivation is huge. If the motive is, "I'm going to tear this person down. I want to bring the church down. I'm so angry," there's that. Or is it, "Hey, this is a concern I have. I really mean this for the benefit of the church and the benefit of our pastor. And I'm concerned about it and I just want to bring this up"? I think that's really important as well. The third thing is that every time my pastor sees me, is my pastor wondering, "Uh-oh, what did I do now?" In other words, do I only go talk to my pastor when there's a problem? I think it's important if we're a part of a local church, that we are affirming our pastors when we see things well and things that we appreciate and we're grateful for.
While at the same time, when there is an issue of concern that we go there. Lastly, I'll say this, Peter, I think it's important that we come with a humble posture of openness, of saying, "I could be wrong." Here's another great phrase that I coach leaders with. Help me understand. And that's not a tone of, "Help me understand," where we're wagging our finger, but a posture of humility and curiosity. I understand this is going on. Can you help me understand why this was dealt this way, why this occurred, why this happened, why we didn't address it? And I think that if there's an openness and a curiosity, rather than an immediate jump to judgment and accusation, that just really honors everybody in the relationship.
I was just talking to this pastor earlier today, I mentioned earlier in our conversation. He said, there's so much going on around behind the scenes of the person that he had to let go of one of his staff members and the church is very upset. He can't fully articulate all the details of what happened, but if he did, the church would fully agree. But to honor the person that he had to let go and the situation, he can't give all the information and the information that congregation has, he's been very misunderstood in that particular situation.
And so, that's a hard thing, too, of trying to balance, "How much can I really share? How do I honor people? How do I be honest and honoring?" And that's a hard balance sometimes, because there's a lot of misunderstanding that pastors share with me that can be very, very difficult. So, those would be a few things that I might offer in terms of being a congregant that has an issue with their pastor or with leadership.

Peter Englert: What I really appreciate about that and maybe this is my therapy with you, but where I've failed in the last year is trying to carry the mail of someone else to someone. I mean, even now, as I say that, that's not Matthew 18. Matthew 18 is you go directly to the person. This morning, there's an issue that was brought to me. And my first question was, "Did that person directly talk to that other person?" And what I appreciated was in the situation, the person felt like, "I felt out of place, I felt this." And I go, "That's really important for this person to hear and I can't represent that."
And I think even what you're saying with the bullseye of the absolutes, the convictions, and the preferences, it reminds me of Inside Out where I think it's the elephant. It's the opinions and facts and these get all mixed up. Maybe I'm making a wrong assumption. If it's heresy or if it's a sin issue, usually, that's fairly clear. How do you know the difference between preferences and convictions?

J.R. Briggs: Yeah, it's a great question and it is a question that the pastors wrestle with and we talk through. So, yeah, convictions would be things like different denominations. Why are there different denominations? There are differences because there are convictional differences, but even within a denomination, you might have preferential elements within that. So, you may have a more traditional church that sings hymns and uses an organ. And you may have a church in the same denomination that is in jeans and flip flops and singing modern Hillsong or Bethel Music really loud. There's nothing wrong with that. That just may be a generational preference on that.
But if you think about some of the convictional things, just for example, it could be infant baptism or believer's baptism. It could be predestination. It could be free will, the role of the Holy Spirit. These are things that they're significant, they're beyond. What do you wear to church? They have greater significance, but it's not a life or death issue on that. And we can still be in fellowship with one another on some of those differences. So, yeah, I think mostly, denominations are started because of convictional differences. They're hardly ever started because of preferential differences.

Peter Englert: I want to honor your time. I want to just ask you two last questions, but the first one is this. So, I'm in my 30s. I know people in their 40s, and it just seems like there's these issues that people are throwing the baby out with the bath water, because it is disorienting. I've had a terrible church experience. I've been hurt by a leader. Now, I'm questioning everything about Christianity. And again, I'm trying to say this with as much grace as possible, because it's almost cancerous. It's that painful.
How do you get over it? How do you see it? And to a person that's stayed this long on the podcast, maybe has a family and is really, really hurting and they're a little bit older, in their 30s or 40s, how would you just encourage them and help them? And I know you'd listen to them and things like that, but what are some of the perspectives that you have in the role that you have?

J.R. Briggs: Yeah, and it's a great question. It's not theoretical. It's very real. And I've sat with many people who are exactly what you described, Peter. The first thing I would say is I think of some men and women who are in their 30s and 40s and dating and they've been really hurt in different dating relationships. And sometimes they're tempted to say, "Oh, well, every female is awful," or "Every male is just terrible." And you go, "Really, everyone?" And the analogy breaks down, but I think it's important to realize that we can't, as you said, throw the baby out with the proverbial bathwater on this, but it's still worth it.
And I don't mean to be harsh and I don't mean to be flipping in this, but gosh, what church hasn't hurt people? Hurt people hurt people. I'm not wanting to perpetuate that hurt. But if we're looking for a place that doesn't hurt us, my, goodness. I love my wife. My wife loves me. We hurt each other with our words and our actions a lot and I don't like it. I don't want to do that, but I don't say, "Well, she's just a terrible person and I'm going to leave her," and vice versa. And so, I think it's important to just say, even with the best of intentions, we still are hurt and we still hurt people. I don't want to hurt people. I don't want to hurt my kids. I don't want to hurt their feelings. I don't want to hurt my friends' feelings, but I do.
And then somehow in that, there's still enough love and trust to be able to return and say, "I need you to forgive me. Will you forgive me? I need grace and mercy." And so, it's not to minimize the pain. There's a lot of pain. And there's some people that just like when you tear a hamstring or whatever, playing sports, you need to sit out and rehab. You shouldn't run back out on the court or on the field right away. The best thing for your healing may be to take a break and make sure we're on the sidelines getting some rehab and seeing a physical therapist and trainer to get us back in, but simply to be on the bench forever and say, "Well, I got hurt out on the field. So, that field is terrible or that sport is awful," I'm not sure is wise.
And so, after a season, I think we need wise people around us who we trust and love and who love us and we love them to be able to just invite us back on the field to say, "Hey, maybe we don't go full speed, but maybe let's just jog a little bit. Let's rehab and let's get back and see where we're at and to work back into that." And I've seen people do that and it's been beautiful. They needed time away. They needed time off. They needed time to recover and they're engaged with a healthier perspective.
And so, I hope that metaphor lands for some people. And I hope people aren't thinking that I'm being flippant with people's pain, but I do think that it is unrealistic to think that I'm going to find a church that's never going to hurt me, because of course, it's filled with people and people are broken and people are hurting. And just like in healthy marriages and in healthy families, we still hurt each other, but we don't give up on each other.

Peter Englert: No, I really appreciate that. So, the last question that we ask is, "What would Jesus have to say about this topic?" So, I get an opportunity to answer it. And then as a consultant and a pastor, you can clean up any heresy or any problems. Does that sound good? So, yeah.

J.R. Briggs: Sure.

Peter Englert: As I listen to you talk and just everything that you're saying, it reminds me that when Jesus is dying on the cross, he asks this question, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?", and just the picture that you painted of Jesus being angry at the religious leaders. And I was even thinking about Paul writes this passage. He goes, "You know what? There's people that preach the gospel for their own gain, but be excited that they're preaching the gospel." And I bring all of that up because I think that Jesus is okay with the imprecision and the brokenness.
And the more that you engage the Psalms in Jesus's life, there's a reality of what we're going through that we actually have to catch up to the Bible of being a culture that grieves and laments and just as you close that we're not asking you to sprint or get on the field, but to jog. So, leaders are going to hurt us. I've hurt people. I will hurt people. I'm sure I've hurt someone today. I want to grow. I want to do that and I realize that, but part of it is we live within this mess, but that's what really makes the gospel beautiful because we aren't our own saviors. It's Jesus. So, that's how I close to this question, "Why are leaders in the church so messed up?" What about yourself?

J.R. Briggs: I'd echo a lot of what you're saying, Peter. If people are listening to this and are just thinking, "Do I give up on church? Do I give up on God? It's everywhere I look around. I don't know if it's worth it," I just want to remind us that the story of God and the character of God is that God is for people. God is for people. He believes in us. He's in our corner. He made us. He loved us. He loves us still. He pursues us, but he's for people.
We often think that he's against us, but he's for us. And he pursues us and runs after us. And I think if we can keep just that image, that phrase runs through my mind regularly, that God is for people. And to realize that there's a God who wants to pursue us like that, who when he thinks about us has a smile on his face, that's what I hope people realize as good news. That God is for people and God is for us and God is for you.

Peter Englert: J.R., thank you so very much just for your generosity. We're going to have to have you back on the podcast. If people want to find you, you're one of my new favorite emails. I think it's Monday or Tuesday, your five things. How can people follow you and find you?

J.R. Briggs: Yeah. The easiest is through our website, Kairos Partnerships. That's K-A-I-R-O-S, kairospartnerships.org. And yeah, we have something called Five Things in Five Minutes we send out every Tuesday morning. And it's five nuggets, a thought, two links, a question, and a quote that we leave with leaders and you can read those in five minutes or less. And that's at kairospartnerships.org/5t5m, or you can find me on Facebook and Twitter as well.

Peter Englert: Well, thank you so much. As always, you can find us at whygodwhypodcast.com. Click the subscribe button and you're getting email every week with J.R.'s podcast and many others that'll help you respond to the questions that you don't feel comfortable asking in church. Thank you so very much.