Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
A podcast at the intersection of psychology and culture that intimately explores the human experience and critiques the counseling profession. Your host, Stephanie Winn, distills wisdom gained from her practice as a family therapist and coach while pivoting towards questions of how to apply a practical understanding of psychology to the novel dilemmas of the 21st century, from political polarization to medical malpractice.
What does ethical mental health care look like in a normless age, as our moral compasses spin in search of true north? How can therapists treat patients under pressure to affirm everything from the notion of "gender identity" to assisted suicide?
Primarily a long-form interview podcast, Stephanie invites unorthodox, free-thinking guests from many walks of life, including counselors, social workers, medical professionals, writers, researchers, and people with unique lived experience, such as detransitioners.
Curious about many things, Stephanie’s interdisciplinary psychological lens investigates challenging social issues and inspires transformation in the self, relationships, and society. She is known for bringing calm warmth to painful subjects, and astute perceptiveness to ethically complex issues. Pick up a torch to illuminate the dark night and join us on this journey through the inner wilderness.
You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist ranks in the top 1% globally according to ListenNotes. New episodes are released every Monday. Three and a half years after the show's inception in May of 2022, Stephanie became a Christian, representing the crystallization of moral, spiritual, and existential views she had been openly grappling with along with her audience and guests. Newer episodes (#188 forward) may sometimes reflect a Christian understanding, interwoven with and applied to the same issues the podcast has always addressed. The podcast remains diverse and continues to feature guests from all viewpoints.
[00:00:00] Matt: War is going to happen regardless of what you think about it, because it's a very human activity. [00:00:05] So when I found that out, I realized that if I didn't do something about [00:00:10] gender, that gender idiots are gonna kill us all. And that's not an exaggeration. [00:00:15] They're gonna do that because they don't know what they're doing.
[00:00:17] Matt: They are activist [00:00:20] mystics. They are activists operating on a kind of mysticism, that if you say [00:00:25] the right words as a magical formula, then you can convince people, linguistically draw [00:00:30] us into their ideas. Gender is really good at that, right? Uh, transgender, what [00:00:35] is that? Trans woman, what is that? And then the pronouns.
[00:00:38] Matt: The pronouns are Rohypnol. [00:00:40] What is going on there? That's the use of language to try and do magic on our minds. [00:00:45]
[00:00:46] SKOT: You must be some kind of therapist. [00:00:50]
[00:00:51] Stephanie: Today, I get to welcome back Matt [00:00:55] Osborne, who originally appeared on previous episodes 39 and [00:01:00] 101. He is a conflict historian who has entered the gender [00:01:05] critical movement.
[00:01:06] Stephanie: He's a writer at The Distance magazine, as well as a book reviewer [00:01:10] for Genspect. Matt, welcome back. Good to see you again.
[00:01:13] Matt: Hi, Stephanie. [00:01:15] It's good to be back.
[00:01:15] Stephanie: So I enjoyed getting to meet you in person at the [00:01:20] Genspect conference in Albuquerque, uh, in 2025. It was [00:01:25] really nice to see everyone, all these people we've met online.
[00:01:29] Stephanie: And one [00:01:30] thing that I enjoy about being, I guess, what you could say part of a [00:01:35] movement, right, part of the gender critical movement, is that we have people [00:01:40] from so many different walks of life and so many different personal and professional backgrounds, [00:01:45] uh, that have led us into this movement, where we then [00:01:50] utilize those personal and professional backgrounds in a variety of ways, contributing our [00:01:55] stories, our expertise, our perspective.
[00:01:58] Stephanie: And so it's just such a [00:02:00] fascinating way to connect with people. And your angle is history, [00:02:05] which I've said before and I'll say again, is not my best subject. In [00:02:10] fact, um, while we were doing our behind-the-scenes banter before we started recording, everything [00:02:15] that you study is outside of my wheelhouse typically, except for where we [00:02:20] intersect on the gender issue.
[00:02:22] Stephanie: So I guess a good question to open with [00:02:25] is, what is a military historian doing in the gender critical [00:02:30] movement?
[00:02:30] Matt: Well, again, thank you for having me, Stephanie, and I, I will start with a [00:02:35] brief anecdote. I left the Democratic Party in 2018 [00:02:40] because I wasn't down for this sterilizing kids and cheating at sports stuff.
[00:02:44] Matt: Uh, [00:02:45] a- and I decided to get a master's degree in military history [00:02:50] because it was an interesting topic area. It's always been an interest of mine. And [00:02:55] I asked a military historian professor Tenured [00:03:00] professor for a reading list on origins of war, [00:03:05] uh, and primitive warfare. And he said, "Sure." He provided me the [00:03:10] list, and then he said that he no longer teaches these topics, and the [00:03:15] reason is that female freshmen and female department heads get very [00:03:20] upset when you tell them that sex difference is real and important, [00:03:25] because warfare is driven by sex difference.
[00:03:29] Matt: It [00:03:30] is built into our DNA. We do not have wars just [00:03:35] because rich people say so. That is a lie that has been told to us for generations, [00:03:40] and it's not true. The reality is that war happens because [00:03:45] human beings gonna human. There were [00:03:50] anthropologists who found Stone Age societies in the '60s and recorded them on [00:03:55] film having war.
[00:03:57] Matt: Uh, and the death rates in these [00:04:00] primitive wars are as horrendous as some of the [00:04:05] most awful modern wars, actually. If [00:04:10] Americans had killed the residents of Vietnam at the rate the Gebusi [00:04:15] tribe was killing each other at the same moment, there would be no one left [00:04:20] alive in South Vietnam. So this is a topic [00:04:25] that defies the sort of narrative that, uh, [00:04:30] let's call it the left liberal sphere, right?
[00:04:33] Matt: Wants to believe that [00:04:35] war is something that can be prevented through proper action, proper [00:04:40] thoughts, proper attitudes. But none of that is true. Uh, war is going to [00:04:45] happen regardless of what you think about it, because it's a very human [00:04:50] activity. So when I found that out, I realized that if I [00:04:55] didn't do something about gender, if I didn't turn [00:05:00] around sort of like the hero in a, a Western who has tried to get away [00:05:05] from the conflict and gets brought, dragged back into the conflict.
[00:05:07] Matt: You see that trope all the time in the [00:05:10] movies, and it was like that. I realized that if I didn't come back and do [00:05:15] something to help win this fight, that gender [00:05:20] idiots are gonna kill us all, and that's not an exaggeration. [00:05:25] Um, they're gonna do that because they don't know what they're doing. They are [00:05:30] activist mystics.
[00:05:31] Matt: We, we live in a time, uh, with [00:05:35] lots of these people. They, they are activists operating on a kind of [00:05:40] mysticism that i- i- if you say the right words as a magical formula, then you [00:05:45] can convince people, right? And you see this all the time, uh, these efforts to [00:05:50] just sort of Linguistically, uh, draw us into, [00:05:55] uh, uh, their, uh, ideas.
[00:05:57] Matt: Uh, gender is really good at that, right? Uh, [00:06:00] transgender, what is that? Trans woman, what is that? And then the pronouns. So [00:06:05] pronouns are Rohypnol. There's that... I can't remember the name of, of the writer who wrote that. It's a very clever rhyme. [00:06:10] Um, a- and what is going on there? That's the use of language to [00:06:15] try and do magic on our minds.
[00:06:17] Matt: Uh, and that's what we live with. Uh, uh, [00:06:20] it, it happens all the time now. We're surrounded by it. Um, [00:06:25] and, uh, you know, it's a very dangerous way [00:06:30] to make policy for a lot of people, uh, because you're going to [00:06:35] run smack dab into reality. Uh, a- and you're going to have conflicts with [00:06:40] reality. You're never going to defeat reality with words.
[00:06:44] Matt: It just doesn't [00:06:45] work that way. So that is the story of how a military historian came to [00:06:50] take part in the gender critical movement. Um, a- and I would say that [00:06:55] actually it has been a good, um, basis on which to [00:07:00] start, because having been through s- uh, a program, uh, [00:07:05] where I had to be, uh, able to look into the void, [00:07:10] stare right into the void o- of really horrible topics, right?
[00:07:14] Matt: Just terrible [00:07:15] topics, um, and be able to look and not blink, and [00:07:20] be able to, uh, diagnose, uh, what is going on [00:07:25] from the facts without any kind of emotional investment [00:07:30] in who is who. I mean, who really cares in a battle that happened 500 [00:07:35] years ago, right? W- who cares what side they're on? Uh, so for me, it was a good [00:07:40] grounding.
[00:07:40] Matt: It, uh, set me up for success as far as I'm concerned. It [00:07:45] made me a better reader, a better writer, uh, and a better analytical mind.
[00:07:49] Stephanie: So having that [00:07:50] history background helped you see more clearly what was happening [00:07:55] in front of you at this particular moment in history?
[00:07:57] Matt: Yes. Um, particularly [00:08:00] because in order to study military history, you do, to some degree, have to study [00:08:05] ideology.
[00:08:06] Matt: Uh, and I already had, uh, a degree, [00:08:10] my undergraduate is political science, so I had a background in political philosophy and the [00:08:15] history of political philosophy. A- and it got deeper, and I've [00:08:20] deepened it even further since I graduated. So, uh, yes, it, [00:08:25] it's been very helpful to have that background and understanding.
[00:08:28] Matt: When we talk about [00:08:30] Marxism, you'll hear this word all the time. What is that? Well, it helps [00:08:35] to know that Marx was a mystic. It helps to know that actually, uh, if you [00:08:40] think of him as a religious nut job, Marx makes a lot more sense [00:08:45] Uh, anytime you questioned Marx, if you ever argued with him or [00:08:50] debated with him, he would switch to metaphysics because he was doing religion and [00:08:55] not science.
[00:08:56] Matt: Uh, and so again, we're surrounded by these [00:09:00] kind of quasi-religious ideas. We don't recognize them as [00:09:05] such. Uh, and so that, uh, really opened my eyes. I [00:09:10] had gender in one half of my mind, and I had ideology in the other [00:09:15] half of my mind, and at some point I went, "Oh, wait a minute, this is the same thing. [00:09:20] This is the same thing going on."
[00:09:22] Matt: So that was very helpful to me.
[00:09:23] Stephanie: One thing I [00:09:25] enjoy about talking to people outside of my field is when they give themselves permission to [00:09:30] speak very freely. Um, I am so kind of [00:09:35] still stuck with the habit in some ways from my years as a therapist, even though [00:09:40] I do work now that's very aligned with my mission.
[00:09:43] Stephanie: I talk to ROGD parents as a [00:09:45] coach, um, and I, I speak pretty freely, but I'm still hesitant to make [00:09:50] hyperbolic statements that anyone could try to, um, could try to interpret [00:09:55] uncharitably. So I find it a little refreshing when I hear you say things like, "Gender idiots will [00:10:00] kill us all." 'Cause I don't know that I would give myself permission to say [00:10:05] that.
[00:10:05] Stephanie: Um, when you say that, what do you mean? [00:10:10] Given what you know from that historical perspective, [00:10:15] if people like you and I don't say something or if we're not [00:10:20] successful in our efforts, where do you see this nonsense leading? [00:10:25]
[00:10:25] Matt: I, I see first of all that it is going to debilitate, [00:10:30] uh, the American society in terms of our ability to defend [00:10:35] ourselves, first of all.
[00:10:37] Matt: Uh, which means that the whole world [00:10:40] is going to have, uh, uh, more powerful, [00:10:45] uh, societies that do not share American values. Uh, [00:10:50] they'll be more powerful in comparison to us, and some people [00:10:55] want that, and most of those people, I'm not saying all, but most of those people who [00:11:00] actually want that, they tend to be on the other side of the gender issue.
[00:11:04] Matt: Uh, [00:11:05] and so one of the things that's gonna happen is that you'll see a hollowing out of the armed forces. That's what [00:11:10] happened during the Biden years. Uh, the enforcement of gender ideology in [00:11:15] the Pentagon, uh, led to a crash in [00:11:20] recruitment. And what happened, uh, when Pete Hegseth came into office and, [00:11:25] uh, banned transgender service, you saw a sudden [00:11:30] overload.
[00:11:30] Matt: There are too many recruits. Recruiting is through the roof. There's no shortage of recruits. [00:11:35] Why is that? Uh, it's because military families were not down [00:11:40] for the trans clown Uh, that was a really big factor in what [00:11:45] was going on, uh, in recruiting those four years. So first of all, you're [00:11:50] debilitating our abilities to defend ourselves, okay?
[00:11:52] Matt: And then what you're doing is you're [00:11:55] inserting an ideology into the military. And what happens [00:12:00] when militaries become ideological is they spend all of their time on ideology instead [00:12:05] of training. You can see this in the Chinese example. Uh, [00:12:10] if you are a Chinese officer, you will spend about a quarter of your [00:12:15] time, uh, indoctrinating or being indoctrinated.
[00:12:19] Matt: So that [00:12:20] removes time from when you could be, uh, working with your soldiers or [00:12:25] sailors, um, you know, uh, working on maintenance, working on issues that have [00:12:30] to do with actual military application. Uh, so [00:12:35] that's, that's two ways that it debilitates us. And another way that it [00:12:40] debilitates us i- is that if you send transgender soldiers to [00:12:45] war, uh, you're going to have the problem of medically [00:12:50] dependent people being captured and becoming POWs.[00:12:55]
[00:12:55] Matt: So now you're going to have a hostage situation. [00:13:00] Imagine, just imagine, 'cause we're, you know, watching what's happening in Iran, but just imagine [00:13:05] that Iran, uh, had a, a transgender soldier in their clutches [00:13:10] right now, and they were saying, "This person will not get hormones without, [00:13:15] uh, some sort of, um, uh, [00:13:20] negotiated, uh, settlement," right?
[00:13:22] Matt: So it would be one more form of pressure. Now, a [00:13:25] prisoner is bad enough in enemy hands, but when you imagine someone who is [00:13:30] medically dependent in enemy hands, it takes a whole new level, uh, uh, of [00:13:35] awful. And then you have the problem of if you are a soldier who is required to [00:13:40] tell the truth, uh, and that is very important.
[00:13:42] Matt: You have to be able to tell, uh, [00:13:45] someone who is a, a superior bad news because if you [00:13:50] can't say bad news honestly, uh, you know, everybody's gonna be in trouble. [00:13:55] A- and you'll have the enemy sneak up on you because someone [00:14:00] didn't say what they saw. Uh, and what happens is that when you [00:14:05] put two soldiers together and one of them has to lie about the other, if I'm [00:14:10] required to lie and say that this man is a woman, uh, that has effects on morale.
[00:14:14] Matt: [00:14:15] That has severe effects on morale, and we know that because the military community, [00:14:20] uh, did not like it. Most recruits [00:14:25] in the military, America's military, are middle class, not poor, [00:14:30] and most of them come from military families, which means multi-generational. [00:14:35] So what you had was- The generations past that had served [00:14:40] telling young people, "Don't join.
[00:14:42] Matt: Mm-mm, I wouldn't join this." [00:14:45] And then we had a new administration, and whether you like it or not, I [00:14:50] don't- I'm not telling you to like the administration. I'm saying when the new administration came in, [00:14:55] suddenly the floodgates are unleashed. So there are multip- [00:15:00] multiple ways in which it affects our readiness and which it affects our ability to [00:15:05] defend ourselves.
[00:15:06] Matt: Okay, well now let's consider, consider the broader picture. [00:15:10] Um, if the United States is less able to defend itself [00:15:15] when we are attacked, actually in military history, that means that [00:15:20] we are far more likely to strike out with weapons that are, [00:15:25] um, not human, things like nuclear bombs. So you [00:15:30] actually raise the chances of nuclear Armageddon by having transgender service.[00:15:35]
[00:15:35] Matt: Uh, and I know that some people will probably argue with me on this, but I can lay [00:15:40] out, uh, the decline and fall of armies [00:15:45] in history, and it always starts with politics. It [00:15:50] always starts with a lie. Uh, so every time, uh, [00:15:55] you hear somebody talking about transgender service in terms of a right [00:16:00] to serve, just remember that there's no right to serve.[00:16:05]
[00:16:05] Matt: You don't have a right to join the Army. You don't have a right to join the Navy. That's not a right. [00:16:10] Uh, they are able to select, right? That's why we don't have [00:16:15] people in wheelchairs joining the Army. Um, the military is [00:16:20] allowed to discriminate in that way, and one of the ways that they have returned to discrimination [00:16:25] is that we are discriminating out men who have a [00:16:30] disabling paraphilia.
[00:16:32] Matt: We are screening out women who [00:16:35] have a disabling medicalization, and it's not [00:16:40] anti-trans. It is pro-service. It is pro-military. It is [00:16:45] pro-lethality because there's only one job that a military has. And, and people [00:16:50] want to say that the military is for this and that and the other thing. It has one [00:16:55] job, and that's to kill our enemies and break their stuff.
[00:16:57] Matt: It doesn't have any, any other job. [00:17:00] So anything that detracts from that job detracts from the military mission. [00:17:05] Uh, and you know, it's not, it's not like Pete Hegseth [00:17:10] says it and it stops being true because he says it. It is true whether or not he says it. [00:17:15] So there's your short answer. I could [00:17:20] probably go on for a while about that, but we don't have all day.
[00:17:24] Stephanie: I'm [00:17:25] able to simultaneously hear what you're saying from my current [00:17:30] worldview and from [00:17:35] A more perhaps naively optimistic one that says, [00:17:40] "Whoa, Matt, kill our enemies and destroy their stuff, huh? Um, [00:17:45] that's not very peaceful of you. That's, uh... You, you [00:17:50] sound like a real jerk wanting to kill our enemies. Who [00:17:55] are you to believe that we should have enemies in the first place," right?
[00:17:58] Stephanie: So that utopian [00:18:00] lens. Right from the outset of our conversation, you talked about [00:18:05] realizing the inevitability of war and that conflict is [00:18:10] something that we have always done and will always [00:18:15] continue to do as far as we know, you know, being humans on Planet Earth. [00:18:20] Uh, so there's that more utilitarian lens that says, [00:18:25] "Well, if conflict is an ugly fact of life, then [00:18:30] we might as well be prepared to defend ourselves and [00:18:35] go into things with eyes wide open, alert to the possibility that no [00:18:40] matter how utopian our own personal worldview might be, [00:18:45] that, uh, we can't count on everyone else on the planet to share that same worldview."
[00:18:49] Stephanie: Um, [00:18:50] there will always be bad actors and, and there will be bad actors who specifically [00:18:55] target our utopian ideals or anything else that can be considered a, a [00:19:00] weakness. Um, but I'm just h- sort of hearing what you're saying [00:19:05] side by side with the people who take offense to it as if, [00:19:10] as if you're promoting war, as if you're saying it should be this way.
[00:19:13] Stephanie: And I think this is one of the major [00:19:15] distinctions that I work on with the parents that I coach as well, is the is versus ought. [00:19:20] Um, because so many young people are still in that idealistic [00:19:25] phase of, "The world ought to be the way I say it should be [00:19:30] in my utopian paradise that I wanna live in. And if you say the world [00:19:35] is some other way, that means that you think it ought to be the way that you're saying it is, and I have a [00:19:40] problem with you now," 'cause, you know, there's just so much of that youthful [00:19:45] idealism that we run into with the young people.
[00:19:48] Matt: I would say you're right on. [00:19:50] Uh, absolutely. Um, yes, uh, I don't propose that we should go [00:19:55] starting wars everywhere, right? I'm not pro-war. What, what I'm saying is [00:20:00] that wars happen and you must prepare. You must be ready, uh, because the stakes are so high. [00:20:05] You can't afford to lose. Uh, and if you do, for example, if you consider [00:20:10] Afghanistan a loss, um, then you, you want to lose in a way [00:20:15] that the problem does not end up right next door, does not [00:20:20] end up on your doorstep.
[00:20:22] Matt: Um, it's fine to lose [00:20:25] Afghanistan and leave Afghanistan and Afghanistan still be where it is. [00:20:30] The problem comes when Afghanistan ends up- In the United States. [00:20:35] Um, a-and, you know, we, we can argue about immigration, uh, but really [00:20:40] it's not... I'm not talking about immigration. I'm talking about the effect of having, [00:20:45] um, y- an enemy that is close versus far, right?[00:20:50]
[00:20:50] Matt: A- and you would rather lose to a faraway enemy than a very close enemy. [00:20:55] Um, a- a- and ultimately, the stakes are too high. [00:21:00] Victory is too important. Uh, imagine a world where the [00:21:05] Allies lost World War II. There are people who want to imagine a world [00:21:10] where, uh, the Allies lost World War I. That might be different.
[00:21:13] Matt: But World War II, imagine [00:21:15] Nazi Germany in charge of Europe. That would be a bad thing. Um, uh, [00:21:20] there, there are a thousand examples in history, [00:21:25] uh, of civilizations that were made possible by [00:21:30] grim men with weapons carving out a place [00:21:35] for it to exist, and there are as many [00:21:40] civilizations that have fallen because the men got soft and stopped [00:21:45] being able to protect the civilization.
[00:21:48] Matt: Uh, this is an old story. [00:21:50] Uh, one of the most important historians of all time, a man named [00:21:55] Ibn Khaldun, he was an Arab who lived in, uh, North [00:22:00] Africa, and he saw this happen, and he actually is the person that we [00:22:05] owe, to whom we owe this idea of history as cycles. He is the [00:22:10] one who s- came up with this idea that hard times make hard [00:22:15] men, hard men make good times, good times make soft men, and then [00:22:20] soft men make hard times.
[00:22:23] Matt: That's what we owe to him. [00:22:25] Uh, and he observed it in real time, and not only did he observe it, but he was [00:22:30] the rare historian who actually did it. He led men into battle. [00:22:35] Uh, so, uh, you know, there's, uh, plenty of [00:22:40] history to look at that [00:22:45] poses this, uh, picture of reality, that you [00:22:50] have to be willing to have people standing by to hurt other people and break [00:22:55] their stuff.
[00:22:56] Matt: Otherwise, what's gonna happen is you're gonna get killed, and they're gonna break your [00:23:00] stuff. One of those two things is gonna happen. Uh, and you [00:23:05] don't necessarily have to have every war. You can, in fact, [00:23:10] prevent war, uh, by ensuring that your potential [00:23:15] enemy is deterred. You see that right now with China.
[00:23:19] Matt: [00:23:20] China, we're talking about now whether they're going to cross the Taiwan Strait, okay? [00:23:25] Well If there's no gasoline for China's [00:23:30] fleet, then they're not going to be crossing the Taiwan Strait. So what [00:23:35] the Trump administration is doing right now is trying to lock down that shadow [00:23:40] fleet that supplies China with oil.
[00:23:42] Matt: It's all very complex, but you [00:23:45] deter the possibility of violence by showing your willingness to [00:23:50] do violence effective. That's the important thing. It has to be effective violence. [00:23:55] Um, a- and, you know, whether or not you agree [00:24:00] with this particular situation or that particular situation where, uh, someone is [00:24:05] using violence, my question is, are they using it effectively?[00:24:10]
[00:24:10] Matt: Uh, and are they using it, uh, to, uh, effectively [00:24:15] produce changes? Uh, because, you know, [00:24:20] the idea that the world is better off peaceful all the time is just not true. [00:24:25] I mean, right now you're looking at a regime in [00:24:30] Iran that killed 50,000 of their own people probably, uh, in the, at [00:24:35] least the last 25 years, probably twice that many since it came into [00:24:40] existence.
[00:24:40] Matt: Um, so, you know, my question is, what actually is the better-- What is, [00:24:45] what is the real good there? What is the better option? To let that regime stay there doing [00:24:50] that, and doing that to their neighbors and doing that to us, or, or to take [00:24:55] action? Now, you might disagree with me about this, but it's an equation of action [00:25:00] versus inaction, and the idea that inaction will [00:25:05] produce a more peaceful and calm and rational world is just not true.
[00:25:09] Matt: It's [00:25:10] not borne out by history.
[00:25:11] Stephanie: I don't know who coined the term suicidal empathy, [00:25:15] but that's coming to mind when I think about the mindset that I've spent so much [00:25:20] time studying here, um, the mindset I was just describing to you. [00:25:25] And, and I think another manifestation of that [00:25:30] mindset is, I mean, it's, it's so [00:25:35] ironic and layered and privileged, but it's, [00:25:40] it's this naive mentality that, uh, we'd be better off [00:25:45] being conquered by enemies, right?
[00:25:47] Stephanie: That America is so corrupt, [00:25:50] that Western civilization is so, you know, just [00:25:55] evil oppressor colonizers that, [00:26:00] um... I, I think the mentality of these young woke people is, like, [00:26:05] that, um- Better the devil that you don't know, really. That's [00:26:10] that's the problem, right? It's like- Yes ... they can find all the flaws, the [00:26:15] real and imagined and distorted flaws of America or Western civilization, [00:26:20] but then there's this huge naive gap in that thinking that's like, "Oh, just [00:26:25] because we're not perfect, that means the opposite of us or our [00:26:30] enemies or those who disagree with us, uh, are, are better," [00:26:35] right?
[00:26:35] Stephanie: "And we should be conquered by them," which just leaves like a huge, [00:26:40] huge glaring hole in our ability to defend ourselves.
[00:26:43] Matt: Right. And you [00:26:45] have to be able to defend yourself, and, and I us- I use this not just physically, [00:26:50] but in mental terms. If somebody comes along and calls you [00:26:55] names or smears your good name, right?
[00:26:58] Matt: Um, you have to be able to defend [00:27:00] yourself. Um, you may choose, uh, to be the bigger person and not [00:27:05] defend yourself, uh, but you have to be able to. Because if it's, [00:27:10] i- if it's not a choice, if it's just weakness, then people will [00:27:15] just walk all over you. Um, you have to be able to still stand up on your hind legs and [00:27:20] defend yourself.
[00:27:21] Matt: So, uh, it, it's one thing to say, [00:27:25] "Uh, I'm, I'm going to take the high road." Um, [00:27:30] but it is really not true that, [00:27:35] uh, being pacifistic will somehow make [00:27:40] your life more easy. It's actually going to make your life harder. [00:27:45] Not being able to stick up for yourself in a meeting, not being able to stick up for yourself at work, [00:27:50] not being able to stick up for yourself in an interaction.
[00:27:53] Matt: And that doesn't mean you start a fight. [00:27:55] It doesn't mean that you have to escalate. It just means that you have to be able [00:28:00] to take care of yourself, to stand up to bullies. Uh, [00:28:05] I personally think that part of our problem with these youth, and you may [00:28:10] disagree, uh, is that when we got rid, we didn't really get rid of it, but when [00:28:15] we got rid of bullying, um, what happened is that kids l- [00:28:20] never learned to deal with bullies.
[00:28:23] Matt: Um, a- and so [00:28:25] you have, uh, young men especially who are not [00:28:30] sure of themself. They, they, they've never been in a fight, right? So, uh, it's like they [00:28:35] don't know themselves. They don't know their own limitations. They don't know their own abilities. [00:28:40] Um, a- and one of the things that you find in, for example, [00:28:45] uh, Brazilian jujitsu training, is that it [00:28:50] brings the ego into alignment with reality [00:28:55] because you are forced to tap out Many, many times.
[00:28:59] Matt: [00:29:00] You, you lose so many matches as you learn, uh, the art of Brazilian jujitsu, which [00:29:05] I'm not into Brazilian jujitsu, but I've listened and read these, uh, [00:29:10] stories from people about how you must learn to accept that you're gonna lose [00:29:15] matches all the time. You're gonna lose and lose and lose, and so you have that [00:29:20] humiliation all the time, and it makes you calm.
[00:29:24] Matt: It makes you [00:29:25] capable of just putting up with people who throw an insult at you. Uh, it [00:29:30] makes you less violent. It makes you [00:29:35] a more peaceful person when you train to be able to use [00:29:40] violence effectively. Um, and I had that same experience when I, uh, [00:29:45] started shooting. I, I got a, a, a pistol and I, uh, learned to shoot [00:29:50] it, and I took part in competitions.
[00:29:51] Matt: And not only did my self-confidence increase, I wasn't even [00:29:55] carrying the pistol, but just, you know, I would walk into a Walmart and I did not feel the [00:30:00] same. I felt more confident just out in public, um, as a result of [00:30:05] my, uh, newfound ability to defend myself, to, [00:30:10] um, you know, carry a gun if I wanted to. I had a, a carry permit, um, but I [00:30:15] usually didn't.
[00:30:16] Matt: Uh, just having the ability, I felt calmer. I felt, [00:30:20] uh, more, uh, in tune with everything that was [00:30:25] going on around me. Uh, I wasn't anxious. So yeah, it, it [00:30:30] is a, a real change in the human mind when you [00:30:35] are able to defend yourself, when you are able to stick up for yourself. [00:30:40] Um, a- and it's part of becoming an adult, I think, that we have to learn to [00:30:45] do that.
[00:30:45] Stephanie: And for those who struggle with this, the first step is recognizing aggression. [00:30:50] That might not be hard for you, Matt, right? Um, but I, I [00:30:55] know plenty of people for whom just that basic level of awareness [00:31:00] that this person's messing with me, they're trying to take something from me, they're, they're, [00:31:05] they're playing a zero-sum game and I am their opponent, right?
[00:31:08] Stephanie: Even if I [00:31:10] am subjectively experiencing life as a positive-sum cooperative game, [00:31:15] uh, recognizing, and quickly, when [00:31:20] someone else is playing a zero-sum game a- where they're trying to win while you [00:31:25] lose, right? Like, we... It, it requires the ability to recognize [00:31:30] aggression in its various forms and switch gears, and I [00:31:35] think a lot of people struggle just even with that.
[00:31:38] Matt: Yes, and you've actually [00:31:40] just hit on something really important, uh, that is in our topic area. It's [00:31:45] testosterone. The thing that testosterone does to boys is makes them [00:31:50] acutely aware of status, of hierarchy Uh, you have a [00:31:55] young man who is suddenly impulsive, suddenly striking out [00:32:00] more than he was before, and that's because the testosterone has come on in his [00:32:05] adolescence, and now he feels his place in the social pecking order so [00:32:10] much more severely than he did before.
[00:32:13] Matt: Um, and I wonder [00:32:15] sometimes of what is that doing to the girls, right? Because girls, [00:32:20] you know, a, a, a female is not a male, and the [00:32:25] socialization is different, but it's also biology, right? So you put [00:32:30] testosterone in a girl, you're making her suddenly more aware of hierarchy, you're [00:32:35] making her more impulsive.
[00:32:36] Matt: Uh, and so, yeah, it's one of the health [00:32:40] effects of testosterone on females. Uh, and when you don't give testosterone [00:32:45] to a boy, uh, if you block his testosterone, he might not [00:32:50] ever learn to defend himself. He might not learn to stick up for himself. [00:32:55] So, uh, you know, these are things that I've been thinking about in terms of, uh, [00:33:00] not just military history, but in terms of gender and, uh, the ideology therein.[00:33:05]
[00:33:05] Matt: And if you ask, now if you drill deep down and start scratching under the surface, you will [00:33:10] find that usually, uh, in most cases, gender ideology, [00:33:15] uh, it, it, it does have a, a pacifist component. The world will be [00:33:20] safer, uh, and less violent, uh, when we get rid of the toxic [00:33:25] masculinity, right? Um, but actually, [00:33:30] masculinity, good masculinity is capable of effective violence, [00:33:35] uh, because that is how we protect ourselves from violence, [00:33:40] from impulsive violence, uh, from those who are [00:33:45] not so grown up as the rest of us.
[00:33:47] Matt: Um, if [00:33:50] you w- want to fight somebody, right, and then you walk into the [00:33:55] room and you find a person who's a foot taller than you and, uh, 50 pounds [00:34:00] heavier, you're not gonna attack that person because, you know, you're intimidated by their ability to [00:34:05] hurt you, right? A- and if you sense or [00:34:10] if, if someone who is looking to hurt you senses that you are dangerous, that [00:34:15] you might stick up for yourself and know what you're doing, they will tend to leave you [00:34:20] alone.
[00:34:20] Matt: Criminals, for example, are looking for easy marks. [00:34:25] Someone who, you know, comes along and mugs you, let's say, Stephanie, that person [00:34:30] is gonna do that because they think you're an easy mark. They think that, uh, all they have to do [00:34:35] is threaten you, and you'll give them whatever you've got. Um, a- and, [00:34:40] you know, if somebody puts a gun in your face, you'll probably just give them your stuff because that's the smart thing, [00:34:45] right?
[00:34:46] Matt: But if somebody, uh, is just attacking you in that way or [00:34:50] intimidating you or threatening you Um, not being able to stick up for [00:34:55] yourself means you're gonna get robbed a lot. You're gonna get robbed all the time because, uh, [00:35:00] criminals have a sixth sense sort of, uh, so to speak, about, [00:35:05] uh, who is the easy mark.
[00:35:06] Matt: And you can hear criminals actually talk about [00:35:10] it, um, or read criminals talking about it, how you get on the subway a- and [00:35:15] you walk into the subway car and, you know, you're looking for the one [00:35:20] who will be easy, right? You're not looking for a tough guy to, to fight with. [00:35:25] You're looking for someone who can't fight back.
[00:35:28] Matt: Um, so the ability to fight back, [00:35:30] just projecting the ability to fight back, uh, is a defense in and of [00:35:35] itself.
[00:35:36] Stephanie: Your trans-identified kid won't listen to reason because reason [00:35:40] isn't what they need right now. They need a parent who knows how to communicate in an [00:35:45] empathic yet strategic manner. ROGD Repair gives you over [00:35:50] 120 lessons in the psychology and communication tools that actually work [00:35:55] when normal parenting doesn't.
[00:35:57] Stephanie: Plus Repair Bot, your 24/7 AI coach [00:36:00] trained on my entire body of work, ready to help you navigate tough moments in real time. [00:36:05] Visit ROGDRepair.com and use code [00:36:10] SOMETHERAPIST2026 to take half off your first month. [00:36:15] And right now you're talking about examples of physical aggression [00:36:20] and violence, but I think all of these have corollaries when it comes [00:36:25] to psychological warfare.
[00:36:26] Stephanie: And I-
[00:36:27] Matt: Yes ...
[00:36:27] Stephanie: tend to think of [00:36:30] gender ideology as a, you know, to use a popular [00:36:35] term here, a mind virus and one that is specifically [00:36:40] perfectly designed to attack people based on certain [00:36:45] weaknesses. The profile that we see of the typical [00:36:50] young person who falls for this has usually [00:36:55] m- the, the majority... Sorry, I'm trying to be precise with my [00:37:00] language and maybe I'm weakening it a little bit.
[00:37:03] Stephanie: I would say the, the [00:37:05] typical profile of a young person who falls for this checks [00:37:10] several boxes when it comes to the specific set of psychological [00:37:15] weaknesses and vulnerabilities that can be exploited in this form of [00:37:20] psychological warfare.
[00:37:21] Matt: Yeah, that's an interesting point. Um, yes, a- and that is [00:37:25] consonant with what I was just saying about, uh, when you do the developmental delay, [00:37:30] and that's what it boils down to.
[00:37:32] Matt: You're, you're, they're locking in, uh, an [00:37:35] identity before the development of an identity. Uh, and so what happens is that [00:37:40] you're, in these young people, you're probably eliminating a lot of their, uh, [00:37:45] ability to defend themselves later. Um, and not just physically- [00:37:50] Like you're saying, but in the 99 times out of 100 when it's metaphorical, when [00:37:55] it's mental, when it's, uh, interpersonal, right?[00:38:00]
[00:38:00] Matt: Um, and yeah, we meet with bullies all the time, and we have to be able to deal with [00:38:05] them. Uh, if you're not able to deal with them, they'll just walk all over you.
[00:38:08] Stephanie: I have to tell you a story, [00:38:10] something I observed the other day at the park with my family. [00:38:15] Um, a little girl went up to her mom [00:38:20] and she said, "Mommy, these kids were saying, 'You're Black, you're [00:38:25] brown, you're white.'"
[00:38:25] Stephanie: Like, kids were labeling each other's skin color. [00:38:30] And this girl was Black and her mom was Black, and she came up to her mom and, and she [00:38:35] basically reported some, you know, race- racial discrimination on the playground. I don't know the context, [00:38:40] right? But she just tells her mom this is going on. And the mom, she doesn't miss a beat.
[00:38:43] Stephanie: She's just like, "Well, tell [00:38:45] them you're an idiot." And I overheard this interaction and I just [00:38:50] laughed. And I hope I didn't offend the mom at, when she heard me laughing, 'cause I, I was laughing in a [00:38:55] sympathetic way. I hope she didn't take offense. She ig- ignored me. But I, [00:39:00] I just, I thought, "Well, you know what?
[00:39:02] Stephanie: That's appropriate. Actually, that is [00:39:05] appropriate." Like, but it's not how a lot of [00:39:10] parents raise their kids, right? Because the, you know, we, we wanna be so [00:39:15] gentle and compassionate and, and make everything so complicated, but really, is that what a [00:39:20] seven or eight-year-old can handle? Or does a seven or eight-year-old need [00:39:25] to keep it simple and say, "You're an idiot"?
[00:39:28] Stephanie: I think at that [00:39:30] age, name-calling- ... in response to racism, probably [00:39:35] appropriate. Um, and, uh, you know, and then the mom went on to say, she was like, [00:39:40] "Baby, what does God say about skin color?" "It doesn't matter." "That's right. Your skin color doesn't matter." And any, [00:39:45] you know, so there was a little, like, of a softer talk that followed it up.
[00:39:49] Stephanie: But I thought, [00:39:50] you know, that's probably actually the kind of support that I needed when I was a kid and [00:39:55] I was being bullied. I, uh, for, for my skin color, too, 'cause I was a m- a minority kid [00:40:00] in a, you know, um, uh, the whites were the minority in my school, so kids were [00:40:05] always making fun of my skin color and, you know, what would it have been like if I had a mom [00:40:10] who wasn't, you know, so anxious about what to do, but who just said, [00:40:15] "Well, tell them you're an idiot"?
[00:40:16] Stephanie: You know? If I'd found that part of myself, [00:40:20] maybe that would've been enough to get them to back down. I don't know. [00:40:25] But I think, I mean, you know, and I'll, and I'll relate it to my own experience as a stepparent, too, because [00:40:30] I, I was so cautious entering these boys' lives, uh, not wanting [00:40:35] to mess up and, you know, being this, like, nice therapist lady, right?
[00:40:39] Stephanie: And, like, it [00:40:40] took me a couple years to learn that especially my younger [00:40:45] stepson, just based on his temperament, like- You gotta be straight with him. [00:40:50] And, and sometimes that means talking back, sometimes that means being [00:40:55] aggressive, sometimes that means tickling him. Uh, I had to, to kinda let [00:41:00] myself unlearn some conditioned responses to match [00:41:05] his energy.
[00:41:06] Matt: Yes, he's looking for that, you know? He's looking to challenge [00:41:10] you and have you push back. Uh, boys are different this way. Girls get [00:41:15] mad at each other, and they become quietly hostile, right? Boys, [00:41:20] if they disagree, they fight it out, and then they're friends again. [00:41:25] Um, a- and this is something that's very different between the sexes.
[00:41:29] Matt: You, you can [00:41:30] observe it in nature, and it's very striking. Uh, and, you know, I- [00:41:35] it's also similar to the way that men and women form different hierarchies. Women [00:41:40] tend to have flattened hierarchies, uh, whereas men tend to have vertical [00:41:45] hierarchies. I mean, just, you know, these are differences in the human species that [00:41:50] are discernible, and they're intangible, right?
[00:41:53] Matt: They're not biological [00:41:55] in terms of we don't see them under a microscope. We have to observe them behaviorally. [00:42:00] Um, and that, again, goes back to the origins of [00:42:05] war. Um, hierarchy, right? If you look at army ranks, there are, [00:42:10] uh, you know, 21 army ranks, okay? That's a hierarchy. [00:42:15] Um, or, or m- the Masonic Order, right?
[00:42:18] Matt: If, if you're into [00:42:20] Freemasonry, there are, like, 33 orders, so it's a vertical hierarchy. [00:42:25] Whereas, you know, uh, the history department at the, at the u- university here, [00:42:30] um, uh, my friend who is retiring from there was just complaining the other day about how he doesn't [00:42:35] understand the department anymore because, uh, women are three-quarters of the department, [00:42:40] and, uh, they have changed the way the department runs so that it is no [00:42:45] longer hierarchical.
[00:42:46] Matt: It is a flattened hierarchy. Uh, so you see this. [00:42:50] In any feminized... You know, we talk about the feminization of certain, [00:42:55] uh, professions, for example, and that's one of the really big effects [00:43:00] that it has, is that it flattens hierarchies. Um, and in the [00:43:05] case of the military, for example, that would be a bad thing.
[00:43:09] Matt: Um, [00:43:10] whereas, you know, uh, i- if you were going to have nurses taking [00:43:15] care of you, you don't want so much hierarchy between the two or three nurses that are taking care [00:43:20] of you. You want them to be a little more egalitarian about, um, [00:43:25] uh, sharing information, uh, about, um, [00:43:30] what's going on with your care, right?
[00:43:32] Matt: You know, there, there, there are different situations where you want [00:43:35] different things. You want different hierarchies. Uh, so it's actually [00:43:40] good- To have sex difference. It's good for the human race to have two [00:43:45] types of people that are a little different in the way that they organize themselves. Um, [00:43:50] it's not helpful to humanity to try to force everybody into one box, [00:43:55] right?
[00:43:56] Matt: A- and, you know, sex difference is one of... It's the primary [00:44:00] split of humanity. Um, a- a- and w- that's the first [00:44:05] two boxes that we go into. Uh, it's like the top line item [00:44:10] i- in, in assessing, uh, what somebody is [00:44:15] and how somebody is predictably going to act. Um, a- and so [00:44:20] when we pretend that it doesn't exist, this actually debilitates us.
[00:44:24] Matt: It makes [00:44:25] us less able, uh, to form, uh, a, a, [00:44:30] an effective hierarchy, flat or vertical, um, [00:44:35] because we're trying to make everything fit the same formula, right? [00:44:40] Everybody's a blank slate, and that's probably one of the areas in which we, we have [00:44:45] the most problem right now, is that the reigning paradigm of our [00:44:50] times is that everyone is a blank slate, right?
[00:44:52] Matt: A person who comes from society [00:44:55] X will be exactly like person from society Y. They'll be exactly the same because [00:45:00] they're both just human beings, and human beings are all the same. But no, um, somebody who [00:45:05] comes from society X will be vastly different from society Y. Uh, the [00:45:10] beliefs in one society, like, say, a, a society that believes in [00:45:15] reincarnation, will be different from a society that is monotheistic, [00:45:20] um, a- and, and has a heaven.
[00:45:23] Matt: Uh, so you know, [00:45:25] this is, uh, a complex topic area, right? But [00:45:30] there's a thousand ways in which the place that you're born shapes you [00:45:35] before anything else does. Uh, so we are not blank slates. [00:45:40] We're, we're not born male and female the same except, you know, the [00:45:45] genitals. No, we're born actually very different, uh, a- and [00:45:50] we follow our differences, our, our genetic [00:45:55] destiny, if you will.
[00:45:56] Matt: Uh, so there is, there's a lot to be said for [00:46:00] this. You know, we need both men and women, and the problem with gender identity is that it [00:46:05] erases the distinction, right? Um, and it's not... W- we have a thousand complaints [00:46:10] about that, but here's one that we don't make often enough, is that, uh, it affects [00:46:15] the way human society organizes itself a- and it, [00:46:20] uh, reduces our ability, uh, to have that [00:46:25] differentiation and to have different skills and to make the most [00:46:30] of, uh, what men and women each are, right?[00:46:35]
[00:46:35] Matt: It actually makes us less competent as a species [00:46:40] Anyway, that's my two cents on that
[00:46:42] Stephanie: Well, and when you describe a [00:46:45] common communication problem in mixed sex workplaces, for example, [00:46:50] where women take offense in some settings to [00:46:55] male, uh, ways of relating, and no [00:47:00] offense is intended. Those same, uh, ways of expressing themselves [00:47:05] if it were a purely male environment might actually work perfectly fine for everyone [00:47:10] there.
[00:47:10] Stephanie: But when women come in with our own sort of social [00:47:15] mores, uh, we're, you know, i- if a woman were to behave that way, it [00:47:20] would, it would be very offensive to other women, so then, you know, it gets interpreted [00:47:25] in, in a, a way that adds layers of offense, which then, you know, then makes [00:47:30] the gap between the sexes wider 'cause men are like, "Oh, women, they're so full of drama."
[00:47:34] Stephanie: Well, we know we're just [00:47:35] interpreting male behavior through the lens of our female social patterns. [00:47:40] What it makes me think of is this idea that, yes, [00:47:45] I think toxic masculinity, that phrase was originally coined to point to some very real [00:47:50] things, and, uh, it's been overexpanded now, so the, a lot of healthy [00:47:55] masculinity has, uh, doesn't feel like it has so much of a [00:48:00] place in society anymore.
[00:48:01] Stephanie: But the thing that it makes me think of in our conversation [00:48:05] today is, like, if you think that's bad, wait till you see [00:48:10] what replaces it in a world where we're not allowed to acknowledge [00:48:15] sex differences, where we're not allowed to be honest and realistic [00:48:20] about, you know, men are like this, and women like th- women are like this, and what does [00:48:25] testosterone do to people, and what does estrogen do?
[00:48:27] Stephanie: And if we're not able [00:48:30] to acknowledge, you know, these truths about who we are as [00:48:35] people, or if we're not able to look aggression in the face or understand the nature of [00:48:40] conflict, what, what takes the place of that? And I, I [00:48:45] don't know the answer, but I've seen glimpses of it, and it's not [00:48:50] pretty. And one glimpse I've seen is sort of the worst of [00:48:55] both worlds, right?
[00:48:56] Stephanie: When, when you deny sex differences, when you don't [00:49:00] help young men find healthy and appropriate outlets for their [00:49:05] masculine drives, um, including hierarchical outlets where they're told [00:49:10] what their place is in the hierarchy. When young men don't have that, if you [00:49:15] look at the direction that a lot of y- these young men's lives are taking, the ones caught up in gender [00:49:20] ideology, it's like the aggression is still there, but it takes [00:49:25] really nasty forms, right?
[00:49:27] Stephanie: And they're not learning [00:49:30] to socialize like women, right? These young men who identify as women, they're not- [00:49:35] They're not graceful and cooperative and considerate of each other's needs. They, they don't reflect [00:49:40] the best of what women have to offer amongst other women. You know, there are, [00:49:45] there are some lovely qualities to female friendship when we do it right.
[00:49:48] Stephanie: Like, women are so considerate of [00:49:50] each other, and we talk about our feelings and relationships, and we build each other up. And [00:49:55] they're maybe trying a little approximation of that, and it, it's a really tacky look on them. [00:50:00] But what I notice with the young men, and then there's a different manifestation in the young women too, [00:50:05] is, like, the worst of both worlds is what I see coming out.
[00:50:08] Stephanie: The worst of male [00:50:10] aggression in... But, like, taking the form of, like, twisted female [00:50:15] social aggression too, and, like, it just gets really nasty. What are your thoughts [00:50:20] on that?
[00:50:20] Matt: Well, it's interesting you should bring that up, because, uh, I don't know if you've noticed, um, [00:50:25] I don't know how much entertainment you watch, but in the last 10 years, what has [00:50:30] happened is that Hollywood has decided to flatten the difference between men and women.[00:50:35]
[00:50:35] Matt: Um, because we, we want to present women as the heroes now, [00:50:40] uh, they have the girl boss, right? She's a female character. She's already [00:50:45] perfect. She doesn't have to grow at all. She doesn't have to fail, [00:50:50] right? Like a man does in this, the, the, the hero's journey. She [00:50:55] doesn't have to fail and become better. She's already perfect.
[00:50:59] Matt: Uh, [00:51:00] and, and everyone just needs to recognize how perfect she is. Why is this happening? [00:51:05] Uh, a- and if you watch what happens, what, what the girl boss does, what they have done is they have [00:51:10] taken toxic masculinity a- and made it female, [00:51:15] a female character. Uh, you have these characters who don't behave like a [00:51:20] woman, and that's the problem with...
[00:51:21] Matt: This is why nobody watches this entertainment anymore, because women, [00:51:25] uh, watch She-Hulk and go, "This is... I don't like this. This is not [00:51:30] a woman I would want to know, uh, because she's behaving like a toxic man." [00:51:35] Um, a- a- yeah. A- and so you have all these franchises [00:51:40] and intellectual properties that have declined, uh, Star Wars, for example.[00:51:45]
[00:51:45] Matt: Um, a- and that's where it comes from. That's why the girl boss has ruined all [00:51:50] these franchises. They want to get rid of the sex difference. They want to promote the female. And [00:51:55] what they end up doing is they take a male character and make her female, and it doesn't work. She doesn't [00:52:00] come a- across as human.
[00:52:01] Matt: Um, and you see this a lot of times in modern [00:52:05] scripts. You have scenes where the dialogue is, like, from Mars. It's not [00:52:10] humans talking, and it's because the people who are writing the scripts, they are that way. They come from [00:52:15] these rarefied, uh, elite Los Angeles academies [00:52:20] or whatever, um, and they actually believe that men and women are not different, [00:52:25] and so they write them as the same Uh, and you know, that, [00:52:30] that is part of our cultural zeitgeist.
[00:52:33] Matt: So, you know, kind of a [00:52:35] roundabout answer to your question, uh, i- is that one of the things that's [00:52:40] been happening is that we're watching industries get [00:52:45] basically destroyed by a denial of sex difference. [00:52:50] Um, a- a- and we're watching, uh, [00:52:55] institutions in rapid decline, uh, because they don't want to [00:53:00] admit that men and women are different or treat them differently or portray them differently.
[00:53:04] Matt: [00:53:05] Um, the hot thing in the last 10 years has been, [00:53:10] uh, the female, uh, dating a younger man, for [00:53:15] example. Well, okay, that happens, but I mean, i- is it ... [00:53:20] It, it's not really a compelling story really. [00:53:25] Um, a- a- and, and these elements of, [00:53:30] uh, you know, like that particular element is supposed to be, uh, the flip. [00:53:35] We're sp- we're flipping the gender, right?
[00:53:37] Matt: We're, we're taking the old paradigm of the older man with the younger woman, [00:53:40] we're just flipping it, and it, it's gonna work, but it never works. Um, [00:53:45] and it happens with all of these properties. And [00:53:50] yeah, uh, that, that's a good example of what you're talking about, I think, and where it leads. [00:53:55]
[00:53:55] Stephanie: So as I mentioned before we started recording, I'm not really a movie buff [00:54:00] myself, but my husband is, and I know he'll be interested in this even if you mention a bunch of stuff I've never [00:54:05] seen.
[00:54:05] Stephanie: I'm sure some audience members will, uh, appreciate the conversation as well. So do you want to give [00:54:10] us examples of, uh, uh, films that portray this and, and maybe [00:54:15] in contrast ones you think that do it better?
[00:54:17] Matt: Let's start with One Battle After Another. That [00:54:20] was the Oscar Best Picture winner this year. It lost $100 [00:54:25] million at the box office.
[00:54:26] Matt: Nobody saw it. It's Hollywood [00:54:30] self-congratulating, patting themselves on the back. Uh, and what is this movie about? It, it, it [00:54:35] features a man, is, is the male character, uh, by Leonardo DiCaprio, played by [00:54:40] Leonardo DiCaprio, um, who is absolutely useless and worthless [00:54:45] and, and, and bumbling. Uh, and the female [00:54:50] is perfect and toxic and sleeping around, [00:54:55] and it doesn't matter.
[00:54:55] Matt: But she's a revolutionary. Um, she's gonna overthrow the [00:55:00] system. Uh, a- and so you have this example of a movie that [00:55:05] went nowhere, that Hollywood celebrated out the wazoo, that, uh, [00:55:10] gets this woman completely... She's not a woman, right? She's not a real character, [00:55:15] and the man is not a real character either.
[00:55:17] Matt: They're caricatures [00:55:20] of, uh, something that's not even real. Um, but then you can [00:55:25] look at a movie, for example Uh, it, I would [00:55:30] recommend actually that you take time to go see, [00:55:35] uh, Project Hail Mary if you have not, uh, because the women [00:55:40] are real, the male characters are real, everybody acts like a real [00:55:45] person. Um, sex difference definitely exists even though there's not any sex in [00:55:50] the movie.
[00:55:51] Matt: Um, and even the alien [00:55:55] character is a little rock alien, and he's a he, [00:56:00] and that he, he acts like a he. And so [00:56:05] everyone feels relatable in this movie, and that's one of the reasons why it's such a huge hit. It's [00:56:10] gonna make a billion dollars because everyone who sees it relates to it. [00:56:15] But no one related to the characters in One Battle After Another, and it's [00:56:20] primarily because of the way the men and women were written.
[00:56:24] Matt: So there you go. That's a [00:56:25] good example, those two films. But, you know, you can think about Star Wars. When was the last time you [00:56:30] saw a Star Wars film? Just, just, just asking in general. It does not- Honestly- There's no [00:56:35] correct answer ...
[00:56:35] Stephanie: literally never. Sorry. [00:56:40] I mean, my husband- No, it's fine ... is into it, but, you know, it's boy stuff and[00:56:45]
[00:56:45] Matt: Yeah, if you ask him, he's gonna tell you the original trilogy is best, [00:56:50] okay? And then he's gonna tell you that the George Lucas sequels from the first [00:56:55] decade of the 21st century, they're not too good, but they look much better now [00:57:00] because the sequel trilogy by Kathleen Kennedy is just [00:57:05] awful. And if you watch the sequel trilogy, I don't, I'm not telling you to watch it, [00:57:10] but if you, if you watched it, you would notice this, that the women are not [00:57:15] like women.
[00:57:16] Matt: They don't behave like women. The men don't behave like men. [00:57:20] Um, men have been reduced to caricatures. [00:57:25] Um, a- and the girl is the boss. And, you know, that's one [00:57:30] franchise that's been hollowed out by this. Another one, uh, Indiana Jones. [00:57:35] Um, the last installment of Indiana Jones a couple of years ago, [00:57:40] they actually were trying to kill off Indiana Jones.
[00:57:43] Matt: They had a time machine [00:57:45] plot where he was gonna die in the past, and this woman was [00:57:50] gonna put on his hat and go back to the future and be Indiana Jones from now on. [00:57:55] Uh, and the test screening audience hated it. [00:58:00] They hated it so much that they had to change the ending, [00:58:05] uh, before they released it. Uh, and that's a good example of where they're trying to take a male [00:58:10] role and make it into a female role.
[00:58:12] Matt: But let me ask you, uh, you've probably [00:58:15] seen Indiana Jones. You, you at least have seen, like, the picture- Yeah ... of the guy with the hat, right? Long
[00:58:19] Stephanie: time [00:58:20] ago. Long time ago.
[00:58:21] Matt: Okay. Harrison Ford, hat, [00:58:25] bullwhip, dun, dun, dun, dun. Adventure, right? And [00:58:30] can you imagine a woman doing that? Can you imagine [00:58:35] a woman as Indiana Jones?
[00:58:36] Matt: 'Cause I kinda can't. I can imagine Indiana [00:58:40] Jones with, you know, and he does, he has a woman aside him, right? Who is part of the [00:58:45] adventure. She's a full character. She, she, you know, um, takes [00:58:50] part in things. She, she's not just there as a, you know, a character to be [00:58:55] saved or something. Uh, but, you know, he feels [00:59:00] real.
[00:59:00] Matt: He feels like an actual man. She feels like an actual woman. [00:59:05] And when you get away from that, y- you get a disaster that loses a billion dollars.
[00:59:09] Stephanie: [00:59:10] I think this might be why I like historical fiction, even though I'm not, I, I'm not a history buff. [00:59:15] Like, I, I'm not good at remembering things that happened a long time ago, but, um- [00:59:20] Interesting
[00:59:20] Stephanie: you know, things where I wasn't there. But, like, I... You know what's funny is, [00:59:25] um, the latest season of Outlander and the latest season of [00:59:30] Bridgerton came out not too far apart, so I ended up watching them in pretty close [00:59:35] succession. And, and the irony is that Outlander is the one that's actually science [00:59:40] fiction.
[00:59:40] Stephanie: Outlander is the one that involves time travel, um, [00:59:45] but Outlander feels real. And Bridgerton, which does not involve any-
[00:59:49] Matt: There [00:59:50] you go ... time
[00:59:50] Stephanie: travel or other, like, science fiction elements, like, Bridgerton is complete fantasy. [00:59:55] I mean, they both take place a few hundred years ago, um, but the, the, the [01:00:00] depiction of life, like, one involves real people and it's gritty.
[01:00:04] Stephanie: And [01:00:05] I mean, look, there's a lot of really disturbing stuff that you will see if you watch [01:00:10] legit historical fiction. Women were treated horribly. Yeah. Like, like, the, [01:00:15] the heroine in Outlander was treated horribly when she time traveled to the past. [01:00:20] And, you know, another one of my favorite historical dramas is, is Poldark, and yeah, it's, it's [01:00:25] brutal for women.
[01:00:26] Stephanie: But everything feels very [01:00:30] visceral and real, and every man feels like a real man, and every woman feels like a real woman, [01:00:35] and all the things women are going through feel very, like, quintessential to [01:00:40] the human female experience.
[01:00:42] Matt: It's interesting you say that, because you have told me [01:00:45] that you never liked history, but you love [01:00:50] historical fiction.
[01:00:51] Matt: So what you actually enjoy are stories. Yes. You enjoy a good [01:00:55] story.
[01:00:55] Stephanie: Yeah.
[01:00:56] Matt: Uh, whereas... Okay, so what men are doing with [01:01:00] history, and most historians who ever lived were men, uh, they are, [01:01:05] you know, men prefer things over people. So men are about what happened here, what [01:01:10] happened here, then, and so 1776, 1778, 1791 or something [01:01:15] like that, dates, right?
[01:01:16] Matt: And, you know, that's probably just, you're going, "Ugh" [01:01:20] Because you are more into the story with the people and what's going on in it, and [01:01:25] you, you know, you're fine with the plot. You, you get the plot, but what you're really [01:01:30] into is the interactions of characters and if they feel real. [01:01:35] Um, yes, and that's the interesting thing.
[01:01:37] Matt: All of these changes that I was just talking about [01:01:40] in film were supposed to bring the female audience into the theaters, and what [01:01:45] happened is the female audience shrank to nothing. Because it turns out that women [01:01:50] tend to go with men to the theater. The men want to go see a movie, and they [01:01:55] take their girlfriend.
[01:01:57] Matt: Uh, and so what happened is that as [01:02:00] men stopped being interested in this stuff, women stopped [01:02:05] being interested in it even more. Um, so the, uh, there was a very [01:02:10] interesting, uh, turn of events there, that it was supposed to bring in these women and it achieved [01:02:15] the opposite.
[01:02:15] Stephanie: Well, and when you and I have talked about history in the past, I've said I think history is [01:02:20] taught too young in retrospect.
[01:02:22] Stephanie: I mean, the amount of history that I was expected to [01:02:25] learn as a kid, I, I think i- in mid-life you have so much more [01:02:30] of an appreciation for the common elements of the human experience. You can... [01:02:35] Y- you've lived enough life to be able to relate to people in a completely different [01:02:40] era and see how you're essentially made of the same stuff in a different context, [01:02:45] and how their decisions made sense.
[01:02:46] Stephanie: I mean, I, I have a lot of complaints about education not being [01:02:50] very relevant to what young people actually need to know. Um, and I'm [01:02:55] not saying that young people shouldn't learn history, but I think the way that I was taught history, I was too young [01:03:00] to appreciate it, and it's, it's really honestly just through watching historical [01:03:05] fiction that I feel like I become interested [01:03:10] really in, in what happened and how it shaped people.
[01:03:12] Stephanie: But yeah, it's that, it's that human element. It's, it's [01:03:15] kind of the eternal struggle between good and evil and, like, [01:03:20] choice and character and- Yes ... limitation. That's another element that you see in, in [01:03:25] historical fiction, it's like limitation, resource limitation like, [01:03:30] that feels like e- even though none of us would wanna forfeit [01:03:35] modern comforts to be back there, uh, you know, before artificial light and indoor heating [01:03:40] and, you know, all of that, like, there's something so visceral about [01:03:45] just being with the elements.
[01:03:47] Matt: Yeah. Uh, it's interesting that any [01:03:50] time you read any of these back-to-nature types, when you start reading into them, all right, they wanna [01:03:55] give up industry, they wanna give up electricity. They [01:04:00] never wanna give up indoor plumbing.[01:04:05]
[01:04:05] Stephanie: Yeah, sanitation. Like, if you've ever had a waterborne [01:04:10] illness
[01:04:11] Matt: Yeah. Uh, if you've ever had just food poisoning, right, you [01:04:15] understand the necessity of, of, of good hygiene. Uh, a- and you know, it [01:04:20] wasn't always so. Uh, people used to die of very preventable things all the time. [01:04:25] Uh, uh, yeah. Uh, there are, there are stories in [01:04:30] history that might not interest me.
[01:04:32] Matt: There are stories in history that might not [01:04:35] interest you. Really, it boils down to history is stories, and [01:04:40] every historian is telling stories. Um, and [01:04:45] the idea that historians are some sort of neutral arbiters of fact, [01:04:50] that's not true either. Every historian is telling stories their own way.
[01:04:54] Stephanie: When [01:04:55] it comes to people dying of things that are preventable, you see so much of that in historical fiction.
[01:04:59] Stephanie: [01:05:00] I mean, you see so much of, like, you know, a [01:05:05] couple losing a baby to a fever, right? [01:05:10] And, and then it's just pure tragedy, and that's what I love about these [01:05:15] shows is like just it's pure tragedy. There's no other- ... [01:05:20] emotions mixed in there. It's just grief, and it sucks, and it's winter, and your baby's [01:05:25] dead, and you're just mourning-
[01:05:26] Stephanie: and that is all that's happened. And, and there's something [01:05:30] so- that like resets, I don't know, when I, when I watch that kind of stuff, I'm like, "Oh yeah, life [01:05:35] is suffering. Thank you for acknowledging
[01:05:36] Matt: that." Like- You know, you're, you're so on. Aristotle [01:05:40] even wrote about that 2,000 years ago. Uh, you're, so you're spot on.
[01:05:44] Matt: [01:05:45] Yes. We watch tragedy, and it feels good to us. Why? Why [01:05:50] is that? It's because when we watch the tragedy, we have the purgation of our own [01:05:55] emotions, right? We have the feeling of, "Oh, that poor baby's dead, and those poor parents have [01:06:00] lost their baby," right? And it's not real, so we don't have to feel it [01:06:05] as we would feel it if it was us, right, like really happening to us.
[01:06:09] Matt: We would [01:06:10] be, you know, feel devastated by that. But we can watch the devastation of a [01:06:15] fictional couple, and we actually feel uplifted by it. We [01:06:20] feel transformed by the experience. Um, yeah. Uh, that is an [01:06:25] ancient piece of wisdom that you just hit on right there. Speaking of [01:06:30] historians.
[01:06:30] Stephanie: So speaking of being a historian, what's it like to be a [01:06:35] military historian documenting the gender critical moment in [01:06:40] time as it's occurring?
[01:06:41] Matt: Well, that's a good question. Uh, you know, a- it's not [01:06:45] like I'm documenting a battle, a real battle, but in a sense it is a [01:06:50] war that's going on, right? It's an ideological war. Um, so what are the [01:06:55] different fronts? Uh, we could, we could say the prison front. We could say the sports [01:07:00] front. We could say, you know, that, that the International Olympic Committee was a [01:07:05] battlefront, and, and we just won that battlefront.
[01:07:08] Matt: Um, you could actually- [01:07:10] Frame it that way. Um, a- and in a sense, that is, you know, [01:07:15] how this is working out, that, uh, we are contesting one [01:07:20] issue space at a time on the same issue, right? And fundamentally, they all boil [01:07:25] down to the same thing, but we're having to fight this out one state at a time, one [01:07:30] country at a time, one issue at a time.
[01:07:32] Matt: Um, and that, that is, [01:07:35] uh, a, a, a campaign. It's not just one [01:07:40] single event.
[01:07:40] Stephanie: Let me add to your register the, m- m- my field. [01:07:45] So w- uh, the battles Yeah ... the battles over the counseling profession. [01:07:50] We've got Varian versus Einhorn, which I released an episode about when it [01:07:55] happened, and then we've got, uh, Chiles versus Salazar.
[01:07:58] Stephanie: So we've got
[01:07:59] Matt: [01:08:00] those- Yeah, you're, you're, whoa, spot on ...
[01:08:02] Stephanie: yeah, major progressions over the, the battle [01:08:05] over the counseling profession, which is a huge culprit in what's gone [01:08:10] on. Please continue.
[01:08:11] Matt: You can see each of these as, as one particular part of a [01:08:15] larger conflict, yeah. Uh, a- and the conflict is being, uh, [01:08:20] waged.
[01:08:20] Matt: You know, we, we, we could look at the Cold War, as in communism versus capitalism, that kind [01:08:25] of divide of ideology. That's kind of what's happening. It's an ideological [01:08:30] conflict. Thankfully, it isn't, you know, a shooting... Well, [01:08:35] actually, let me correct that. Sometimes it is a shooting conflict. We've seen more and more of that.[01:08:40]
[01:08:40] Matt: And why is that happening? And I would submit that it's happening because, [01:08:45] again, uh, y- the transgender ideology, not only is, [01:08:50] is it interfering with normal development and helping young pe- you know, [01:08:55] we, we want young people to be able to process their feelings [01:09:00] and get to be an adult without having to shoot up a school, okay?[01:09:05]
[01:09:05] Matt: And that's one part of it. Another part of it is that [01:09:10] ideology gives permission. Uh, this is, this is a fun fact, or not-so-fun [01:09:15] fact. Uh, when, when the United States went [01:09:20] to war in the Pacific in World War II, only one in [01:09:25] four American riflemen would actually shoot their weapon at the Japanese. [01:09:30] Why is that?
[01:09:32] Matt: Uh, it turned out that it was the training, that [01:09:35] they were not training soldiers to recognize the enemy and shoot [01:09:40] reflexively. And this is why when you go to the US Army basic training now, the targets on the shooting range, [01:09:45] they pop up like this, and they're human shaped. And that's because they're training [01:09:50] you to be able to recognize that pop-up target and shoot it without [01:09:55] thinking about it.
[01:09:56] Matt: And one of the things that they found out in World War II is that the officer [01:10:00] actually has to say, the sergeant has to say, "Open fire." You know, "Shoot that guy." [01:10:05] You actually have to give directions because people Uh, have a built-in [01:10:10] limiter that prevents us from killing. Most people are not murderers, not natural-born [01:10:15] killers.
[01:10:16] Matt: Uh, so they need permission in order to kill. And what does gender [01:10:20] ideology do? It gives this sense of permission, this, uh, [01:10:25] entitlement to get what you want, and if you don't get what you want, you're allowed to strike out with [01:10:30] violence because you've been genocided. A- and this permission [01:10:35] giving builds up, and that's how you get, um, you know, the Audrey [01:10:40] Hale manifesto.
[01:10:40] Matt: You can read it in there. It's, it's a- uh, available in [01:10:45] any transgender shooting incident. You can find out, uh, somewhere in their [01:10:50] manifesto or in their video catalog, there's going to be, you know, um, [01:10:55] a, a, a, a turn towards violence [01:11:00] because I have permission to do it, and that's what the ideology is [01:11:05] doing. Um, so this is part of our problem, and you, you were [01:11:10] asking me earlier why I feel that it's dangerous, and that's one reason why.[01:11:15]
[01:11:15] Matt: Um, you know, it ... They, there are a thousand ways in which [01:11:20] gender ideology undermines our ability, uh, to [01:11:25] regulate ourselves, and, um, it, it puts that [01:11:30] external locus of control out there so that someone else can harm you [01:11:35] mentally. Uh, it, you know, if somebody misgenders you, you know, [01:11:40] "Oh, I'm ... " You, you ... The angst, the anxiety level goes up, right?
[01:11:44] Matt: And [01:11:45] so, uh, it's a dangerous ideology in that sense because [01:11:50] it tends to lead to violence. We've seen it now. It tends [01:11:55] to lead to, um, people dysregulated and, uh, taking it [01:12:00] out on the people around them. Um, and, you know, that's, that's an old story, [01:12:05] and it's not exclusive to transgenderism, but transgenderism, I think, is, like, [01:12:10] pouring a little bit of fuel on that fire.
[01:12:12] Matt: Uh, so yeah. Th- this [01:12:15] is a, a broad topic, but it's worth talking about, and I, I think we really [01:12:20] need to regard, uh, transgenderism as not [01:12:25] simply a, a threat to health, which it is, not simply a threat to mental health, which it is, but a [01:12:30] threat to society. Um, a threat to civilization. [01:12:35] Uh, I, I don't say that lightly.
[01:12:37] Stephanie: That reminds me of something you were saying [01:12:40] earlier about the role of ideology in war. Uh, [01:12:45] seems like there's, there's something you've noticed from studying the history of that. [01:12:50] Can, can you flesh that out a little bit more, how the current ideology [01:12:55] gives way to violence and what that has in common with how ideology has led to war in the [01:13:00] past?
[01:13:00] Matt: You know, probably the, the quintessential example of [01:13:05] ideology and conflict, uh, would be Germany and the [01:13:10] Soviet Union. Ideologically, they're actually cousins, right? The left doesn't want [01:13:15] you to hear this, but it's true. Um, so, so you have these two [01:13:20] ideologies that had an epic conflict. It was brutal, right?
[01:13:24] Matt: [01:13:25] Both sides are promoting the idea that the other side is inhuman. [01:13:30] Uh, so the Germans are rolling through Russia and terrible [01:13:35] things are happening to Russian civilians. Uh, a- and then, you know, Russia comes the [01:13:40] other way and terrible things are happening to German civilians. And terrible things have always [01:13:45] happened in war, but now it's happening at this industrial scale.
[01:13:49] Matt: Uh, and so [01:13:50] ideology has something to do with that. Ideology is being used to motivate, uh, [01:13:55] what we would call war crimes. Ideology is being used to [01:14:00] motivate horrors and atrocities. Uh, ideology is being [01:14:05] used to motivate the soldier in battle. And you think, "Okay, now [01:14:10] I understand the soldier in battle. I can understand we want him motivated."
[01:14:14] Matt: Uh, a- [01:14:15] but the problem is the spillover, that what happens in the other 99% of the [01:14:20] time, 'cause you only spend 1% of your time in battle when you're a soldier. Um, the other [01:14:25] 99% of the time, the ideology is still present. Uh, so, [01:14:30] uh, one of the interesting things about that war is that even though the [01:14:35] civilian casualties and civilian, uh, uh, let's, let's call it, um, [01:14:40] bad things happening to civilians, the rate is the [01:14:45] same as other wars, but the numbers are much higher.
[01:14:48] Matt: Uh, so [01:14:50] you have the same ratio, uh, it's almost a golden [01:14:55] ratio, two to one of male to female, that civilians who are occupied in [01:15:00] wartime, two men will die for every woman. Whereas women, of course, suffer other forms of [01:15:05] violence. Um, and that is the same in this one particular conflict. [01:15:10] So it's, like, the same as any other conflict except worse.
[01:15:14] Matt: [01:15:15] And one of the reasons why it's worse, one of the key reasons, is because both sides [01:15:20] are so hopped up on ideology. Um, [01:15:25] ideology has driven, uh... You know, like Pol [01:15:30] Pot killed a quarter of the population of Cambodia with ideology, right? He, [01:15:35] he... How did he do that? He convinced young men with guns of his [01:15:40] ideology, and he gave them permission and orders to go out and do what [01:15:45] they did.
[01:15:46] Matt: Um, and so now you're talking about [01:15:50] transgenderism, okay? What does transgenderism do? It is an ideology [01:15:55] that tells a young man, "You're entitled. These people are against you. [01:16:00] Uh, you have the right to lash out against those, uh, who won't give you what you want." [01:16:05] Um, a- and, you know- And then beyond the individual level, [01:16:10] right, at, at the group level, uh, there's this whole idea of a trans [01:16:15] genocide, and it's totally believed.
[01:16:18] Matt: I don't know if you saw that [01:16:20] video was floating around yesterday of some, a woman at a Democratic Party meeting of [01:16:25] some kind. Uh, I think it was Pete Buttigieg. She was asking, "How do we prevent [01:16:30] the, the concentration camps for the transgender people?" Because she really [01:16:35] believes this, and if she believes it, she'll act on the belief.[01:16:40]
[01:16:40] Matt: One of the ways that she'll act on that belief is by trying to put you in jail. [01:16:45] Uh, so the violence that can happen to you, [01:16:50] right, as a result of a broader [01:16:55] picture of ideology, not just a person, but a whole lot of people who are hopped up [01:17:00] on this ideology. Um, any bad idea... [01:17:05] One person can have a bad idea, and they're just, just a dummy with a bad idea.
[01:17:09] Matt: A whole lot [01:17:10] of people with a bad idea is very, very dangerous. That's how wars [01:17:15] happen usually, is somebody with a really bad idea. [01:17:20] Um, so yes, uh, there are, you [01:17:25] know, some limits to this, uh, metaphor, but yes, I, I see it [01:17:30] in terms of both the individual and at scale, that [01:17:35] it is a threat not just to our freedom, right, our freedom of [01:17:40] speech, our freedom to use the pronouns that we see, [01:17:45] um, our f- you know, the freedom of a girl to have a fair competition at sports, that kind [01:17:50] of thing.
[01:17:50] Matt: Those, those are all important. Uh, but I see it as a serious threat, [01:17:55] um, to the safety of the public, the [01:18:00] safety of the non-believer, right? Uh, and to the safety [01:18:05] of things like the Constitution. Because if you can force people to [01:18:10] use pronouns, well, you've just, uh, you've just done away with the First Amendment, [01:18:15] haven't you?
[01:18:16] Matt: Um, so yeah, there are ways in which I see this [01:18:20] as really undermining the core values of civilization in ways that lead towards [01:18:25] violence or disorder or authoritarianism in response to [01:18:30] disorder. Um, a- and, you know, th- it's just not... [01:18:35] It- it's not a clean ideology that you can just dismiss that, [01:18:40] oh, well, people just believe that funny thing.
[01:18:42] Matt: It, it has dangers for us, [01:18:45] real dangers. Um, a- a- and I would, [01:18:50] I would argue that we would be m- better off or, or we [01:18:55] would benefit more from a little bit of fear [01:19:00] towards the potential consequences of this ideology at scale, [01:19:05] uh- In a decade, in two decades. If it's not [01:19:10] defeated now, if we don't, um, [01:19:15] restore some normalcy, uh, the [01:19:20] consequences for all of us could be dire.
[01:19:22] Matt: The consequences for humanity could be dire. [01:19:25] And that's before we even talk about things like, you know, the population crash [01:19:30] because nobody- the fertility rate has gone down, and why is that? Um, uh, some of it has to [01:19:35] do, uh, with the ideology that says, "Hey, kid, y- you can [01:19:40] sterilize yourself, it's fine." Um, so, you know, th- th- there are a [01:19:45] number of levels on which it is destabilizing and destructive [01:19:50] and ends in violence.
[01:19:52] Matt: Because when civilizations go down, it's [01:19:55] usually, uh, you know, a long process, it's not all at once, but at some [01:20:00] point there is violence usually. So we could [01:20:05] go there, and we could have, uh, after even you and I are gone, uh, [01:20:10] unchecked gender ideology could actually kill us all, and I saw that in [01:20:15] 2020 when I talked to my professor, and I'm still carrying that [01:20:20] with me today.
[01:20:21] Matt: It, it is what keeps me in this fight. We have to win it, [01:20:25] otherwise we're doomed.
[01:20:26] Stephanie: Matt, what are a few ways that you could see us [01:20:30] going from here?
[01:20:31] Matt: Well, uh, one way that we go, of course, is [01:20:35] that we reestablish, uh, binary human sex, uh, [01:20:40] reality as the starting point for law and society. [01:20:45] Um, and that is no guarantee that everything will turn out fine.[01:20:50]
[01:20:50] Matt: But things will not turn out fine if we keep going down this path. [01:20:55] If we keep going down this path that we have been going down, if, let's say, a, a [01:21:00] Democrat is elected in 2028 and says, "You know, every kid gets to go on puberty [01:21:05] blockers now," um, that road ends in [01:21:10] disaster. It ends in social disaster, it ends in civilization disaster, and at [01:21:15] some point it ends in violence.
[01:21:17] Matt: Um, a- and the reason [01:21:20] why is because it will produce three things. The three things that cause wars, going back to Thucydides, [01:21:25] we're talking thousands of years of wisdom here. Fear, honor, [01:21:30] and interest. A- and what's gonna happen is [01:21:35] if society is no longer capable of defending itself, [01:21:40] if civilization is, um, crumbling, [01:21:45] then fear will be everywhere, [01:21:50] dishonor will be everywhere, and people will defend their interests.[01:21:55]
[01:21:55] Matt: You will get wars. And, you know, some people are, are probably still thinking, [01:22:00] "Ah, Matt, I, I d- I don't know if I, I buy this formula." But let me tell you, [01:22:05] um- If you go through history, you will find that conflicts have [01:22:10] started for the strangest reasons. Uh, they have started over a pig, [01:22:15] over a bucket. Um, there have been [01:22:20] wars over feathers.
[01:22:23] Matt: So, you know, uh, [01:22:25] there are a thousand reasons, 10,000 reasons, a million reasons why people will kill each other. [01:22:30] So if you want to find out, um, just how many [01:22:35] ways or how many reasons people can have to kill each other, just have a breakdown of society, have a [01:22:40] breakdown of civilization that results from nobody knowing who they are or who [01:22:45] anybody else is.
[01:22:47] Matt: Uh, that comes from none of us [01:22:50] knowing, uh, you know, none of us being able to predict or act on the prediction of [01:22:55] behavior by somebody according to whether they're male or female. Uh, you're [01:23:00] gonna end up with violence at some point, sooner, [01:23:05] later, somewhere.
[01:23:06] Stephanie: Do you think we're already there?
[01:23:08] Matt: Well, I think you're seeing that with the shootings, [01:23:10] aren't you?
[01:23:11] Matt: Um, I, I think that that's a pretty good argument for, [01:23:15] uh, this point of view. Uh, and actually, you know, even [01:23:20] w- when I talked to that professor, I even imagined that. [01:23:25] I thought, "You know, we'll get transgender mass shooters probably." And then it [01:23:30] happened. So, you know, there's, [01:23:35] uh, may- maybe, maybe I'm wrong, but that makes me feel right.
[01:23:39] Matt: It [01:23:40] feels confirming. Um, certainly, uh, when Audrey Hale [01:23:45] shot up the Covenant School in Nashville, that made me think, "Oh, [01:23:50] yeah, maybe that idea of mine about ideology, maybe even testosterone. Is she on [01:23:55] testosterone?" I don- I don't know whether she was on testosterone. It's not clear to, uh, uh, uh, [01:24:00] whether she was or not, but, um, yeah.
[01:24:03] Matt: E- [01:24:05] either way, these two things, either one of them can lead to this disaster. [01:24:10] She might not have been okay in the first place. She seemed to have mental illness issues [01:24:15] to begin with, but then you compound those, uh, with an ideology [01:24:20] that gives her a reason to ruminate constantly, [01:24:25] and then gives her a reason to act out Um, permission.[01:24:30]
[01:24:31] Matt: Uh, so yes, this was, this was a realization that is [01:24:35] still propelling me today.
[01:24:36] Stephanie: Are you a free-thinking therapist looking for like-minded [01:24:40] community? The Association for Mental Health Professionals is a sanctuary for holistic, [01:24:45] critical-thinking counselors and therapists who want to stand firm in our values and reclaim our [01:24:50] profession from ideologues.
[01:24:52] Stephanie: AMHP offers its members a blog and [01:24:55] podcast, monthly webinars, and an annual conference each fall in Texas. [01:25:00] Visit associationformentalhealthprofessionals.org to join a [01:25:05] growing number of like-minded therapists who want our profession
[01:25:08] Matt: back. All right, now back to
[01:25:09] Stephanie: [01:25:10] the show. You did begin to answer my last question or [01:25:15] two questions ago when I said where it could go.
[01:25:18] Stephanie: Um, I think your, your first [01:25:20] answer was starting on a more positive note about, you know, if we draw the [01:25:25] line about biological reality. Um, what else can you say about m- [01:25:30] more positive outcomes that actually appear [01:25:35] likely from a historical perspective?
[01:25:37] Matt: Okay. Well, uh, first off, [01:25:40] you know, for three thousand years, women had the wrong bodies for sports.
[01:25:43] Matt: That, that was the [01:25:45] justification. Uh, and then for fifty years, we had Title IX, and then suddenly women's bodies [01:25:50] didn't exist anymore. So the recognition, uh, uh, of [01:25:55] female sports, we restore female sports, the integrity thereof. [01:26:00] Um, and you know, not only does that preserve [01:26:05] sports for women, but it becomes a story of preservation.
[01:26:09] Matt: It becomes a [01:26:10] history of preservation. Uh, and furthermore, the more [01:26:15] battles we win, right? Prisons, sports, [01:26:20] pediatric transition, restrooms. You start winning these fights, and it [01:26:25] becomes a history of winning. Uh, it becomes a history of [01:26:30] gender ideology was tried, mm, rejected. And [01:26:35] that's the story we want. We want people in a hundred years to be talking about that [01:26:40] weird time that people were running around pretending to be the opposite [01:26:45] sex, and it had all these effects that were not good, and people pushed back, and [01:26:50] things were restored, and that should be the story.
[01:26:53] Matt: We want that to be a [01:26:55] positive story. Um, there's going to be always gender non-conforming [01:27:00] people. The positive outcome would be that we come out of this with an [01:27:05] acceptance of gender non-conformity as [01:27:10] natural variation in human beings. Um, you know, that some men [01:27:15] are a little feminine. It's just a character trait.
[01:27:17] Matt: There's some women are a little masculine. It's a [01:27:20] character trait. It's like being, you know, any other kind of character trait. You know, [01:27:25] you might be Smart, you might be dumb, you might be [01:27:30] quick, you might be slow. The point is, character traits, [01:27:35] uh, ought to be accepted as a variation, and hopefully we come [01:27:40] out of this, uh, accepting these character traits in gender [01:27:45] non-conforming people as normal and natural variation.
[01:27:48] Matt: Of course, the dim [01:27:50] prospect is that we come out of this rejecting non-conformity at all. [01:27:55] Uh, and there are, even in the gender critical movement, right, there is a fight between those who [01:28:00] want to accept levels of gender non-conformity and those [01:28:05] who reject all gender non-conformity. Um, and so that [01:28:10] can go one of two ways.
[01:28:12] Matt: I would hope that we get it right. I hope that we [01:28:15] make room and space for people to be different from each other, to be diverse, [01:28:20] uh, i- in their personalities and, and not, uh, you know, have to [01:28:25] crush anybody under, uh, strictures about their behavior. [01:28:30] Um, a- and you know, another issue is that, uh, we [01:28:35] have, for example, um, young people who are [01:28:40] being indoctrinated.
[01:28:40] Matt: We talk about this all the time. One way we could go is that we [01:28:45] rediscover youth, childhood, [01:28:50] right? You have to kick the child out, kick ... Go out- outside. Go [01:28:55] play outside. Um, don't come back till dinner. You know, [01:29:00] that was the way it was when I was a kid. Y- your mom kicked you out of the house. "Go [01:29:05] outside and play."
[01:29:06] Matt: Uh, we could get back to that. We could get back [01:29:10] to doing away with screens, and you're seeing that now. I think it was Sweden. They [01:29:15] just did away with all screens in education. It's back to papers and books [01:29:20] and, you know, notebooks. Um, we could go back and we could [01:29:25] restore childhood. Um, that is the positive outcome.
[01:29:29] Matt: [01:29:30] The negative outcome, of course, is that we end up with this [01:29:35] blurred, uh, line of progress that a child [01:29:40] is a small adult and treated like an adult, and adults, by the way, are also [01:29:45] children, and we have to treat the adults like children. And, and you see that now. You see [01:29:50] both of those things, right? Uh, and they go together.
[01:29:53] Matt: They're, they're actually [01:29:55] confident. They're, they're not separate things. They're the same thing Uh, so yeah, [01:30:00] we could go one way and restore childhood, or we could continue to [01:30:05] blur the lines between adults and children.
[01:30:07] Stephanie: Well, I, uh, I didn't wanna interrupt you, [01:30:10] but when you started talking about getting kicked out to, to go outside and play, I [01:30:15] was gonna tease you for sounding like every Gen X-er I've ever [01:30:20] met.
[01:30:20] Stephanie: And, um, while I am fully in support [01:30:25] of, uh, a Gen X childhood for, uh, you know, I think it'd, it'd be a [01:30:30] lot better for, what, what are we on now, Alpha? Um, is there something after [01:30:35] Alpha yet? I don't know. But, um, it's, we're not, we're [01:30:40] not, we're not going back to the '70s and '80s, right? Um, and, [01:30:45] uh, you know, while, while we can try to create safe [01:30:50] neighborhoods with yards and parks and encourage children to go outside and ride their bikes [01:30:55] and kick a ball around and, you know, climb a tree with a neighbor, um, you know, we can certainly [01:31:00] encourage all those things, but at the same time we're not going back.
[01:31:03] Stephanie: Do you see a [01:31:05] way forward, given the technologies that we currently have, do you see a way [01:31:10] forward that makes sense for the younger generations? I mean, here, here's one little, like, [01:31:15] crumb I can give you, right, is that we're, we're increasingly hearing reports of [01:31:20] kids who are growing up seeing this [01:31:25] nonsense being shoved down their throats by their aging teachers, or they're [01:31:30] seeing their older siblings go trans and, and it feels like a huge loss to them, [01:31:35] and they feel like their siblings are misguided.
[01:31:37] Stephanie: Or, you know, there, there is an [01:31:40] element of the younger kids rebelling against this stuff that feels old. That's starting to happen. [01:31:45] At the same time, uh, you know, I regret to inform my listeners that [01:31:50] the middle school, uh, pansexual to non-binary to [01:31:55] trans pipeline is still alive and well unfortunately, because I'm meeting new parents and middle [01:32:00] schoolers every single week.
[01:32:01] Stephanie: So that's n- you know, it's not completely expired. But [01:32:05] any thoughts on any of that, Matt?
[01:32:06] Matt: Well, it's interesting you should say that, um, because, [01:32:10] uh, I don't know if you're aware of this, but young people [01:32:15] seem to be doing it themselves. They are starting to want analog things. They are starting to [01:32:20] demand older things.
[01:32:22] Matt: Um, one of the great trends that's going [01:32:25] on right now, I don't know if you're aware of this, video game industry is in free fall. [01:32:30] Um, i- it's the worst time for the video game industry since the [01:32:35] 1980s and the fall of Atari. You know? It, that, Atari went belly up. It's a famous story. [01:32:40] Uh, but the point is that, uh, this change is having [01:32:45] young people would rather play Super Mario Right?
[01:32:47] Matt: A game from 1989 [01:32:50] than something that's brand new that is supposed to look spectacular. Uh, and this is [01:32:55] like a kind of retro thing that kids are doing. So I actually feel [01:33:00] like the kids are pretty based. I think that, um, the [01:33:05] worse it kind of gets at the top of that pipeline like, [01:33:10] like you're talking about, kids who are way down here I think now are starting to [01:33:15] see ahead of themselves, and they're turning away from that.
[01:33:19] Matt: Um, [01:33:20] and they're starting to pick up analog things again. They're starting to like puzzles. [01:33:25] Puzzles are apparently a big thing with kids now. Um, so I don't know. I feel [01:33:30] hopeful. I don't think we can go entirely back, right? We, you, you can't... The, the past is an [01:33:35] undiscovered country. You can never go there. Uh, but I think that what [01:33:40] is happening is that people look to the past, even children, uh, a- and they [01:33:45] want things that were simpler, that were more authentic, that feel real.[01:33:50]
[01:33:50] Matt: Um, you know, I, I am struck for example, uh, [01:33:55] by, uh, the very first time that I, uh, [01:34:00] or, or somebody's... I had a child some years ago, their very first time playing Dungeons & [01:34:05] Dragons with me, um, uh, or ever was with me. [01:34:10] And, you know, they had been playing video games with fantasy [01:34:15] elements for a long time, and an hour into playing the tabletop game, [01:34:20] he was having so much fun, he said, "This is way better than a video game."[01:34:25]
[01:34:25] Matt: And I think about that sometimes because, you know, uh, Wizards of the Coast, they ruined [01:34:30] the game for a while. They woke-ified it. They made the orcs into Mexicans, and people were [01:34:35] complaining about it, and now the company's like, "Whoa, we gotta go back." And kids are... You know, [01:34:40] I think kids are gonna pick that up again.
[01:34:41] Matt: I think that they're gonna come and find a tabletop game, and find that [01:34:45] sitting around the table with their friends is way better than doing it online. [01:34:50] Um, but you know, I could be wrong. Um, anyway, I think what will happen is that [01:34:55] we will find a mix. I think that we will be able, uh, [01:35:00] to figure it out so that children are exposed to screens enough that they can be, you know, [01:35:05] uh, competent with the technology, uh, as they grow up, but they're not on the [01:35:10] screen all the time.
[01:35:11] Matt: I think some of that's going to be, uh, [01:35:15] about the law. We're gonna have to have some laws. Uh, you know, in, in China for [01:35:20] example, a kid can't be on TikTok for more than 59 minutes. Um, [01:35:25] and we need something like that I think. We need to limit screen time for kids. But, you know, you can only [01:35:30] do that s- there's only so many things you can do that with.
[01:35:33] Matt: It's gonna take a [01:35:35] certain amount of social change, of people going backwards, [01:35:40] of parents saying, "You know what? I'm not gonna give the child a screen. I'm gonna- I'm gonna give them a flip blown- [01:35:45] a flip phone at, at, at age 11. Um, and in the meantime, you know, they're [01:35:50] gonna have art supplies and they're gonna have a dirt pile in the backyard, right?
[01:35:54] Matt: So I [01:35:55] think that actually it's going to be a mix of, of things. I think we're going to [01:36:00] have to adapt to technology, uh, and bring back [01:36:05] analog, uh, activities that really nourished us, that [01:36:10] made us human, that made us better, you know, and [01:36:15] that made society. But the biggest thing that we're gonna have to change is that, [01:36:20] you know, we have basically stopped talking to each other, adults.[01:36:25]
[01:36:25] Matt: Uh, we don't hang out, uh, as much as we used to. There's the old, uh, [01:36:30] bowling alone paradigm, right? Um, uh, I, I, [01:36:35] I see the future is either going to be people learn to connect [01:36:40] again, uh, and what has gender ideology done about that? Gender [01:36:45] ideology has cut a lot of connections, right? Breaking up families, breaking up, [01:36:50] uh, friendships.
[01:36:52] Matt: So either people are going to reconnect, [01:36:55] um, or the disconnection is going to become complete, and that's when, again, things are gonna [01:37:00] get bad. So we have to connect. We have to find our way back to [01:37:05] at least some measure of normal childhood. [01:37:10] Um, a- and you know, this will not be so easy. [01:37:15] It'll be controversial.
[01:37:17] Matt: It'll be a fight, [01:37:20] but it's a fight worth having. Um, I hope that I have [01:37:25] answered your question.
[01:37:26] Stephanie: Yeah. I think that's a great answer and a good note [01:37:30] to close on. So thank you so much for joining me. It's lovely to chat with you [01:37:35] again, Matt. Uh, and remind people where they can find you. I think you have three different [01:37:40] websites, and we were going to make sure you explained why.
[01:37:43] Matt: Yeah. You can find, uh, [01:37:45] my gender critical work at thedistancemag.com. Uh, I [01:37:50] have a podcast interview with Admiral Christine, uh, at the HHS [01:37:55] later this week. That will be, uh, uh, posted probably by the time you get this podcast up. [01:38:00] Um, a- and, uh, you know, he is the one who has replaced Admiral Rachel Levine, [01:38:05] so I'm gonna try to get him to dish on his predecessor.
[01:38:08] Matt: I'm sure it'll be juicy. Uh, [01:38:10] a- and you know, I write a lot about stuff there. Um, if you [01:38:15] want to read military history writing, uh, you can find me at polemology.net. [01:38:20] Polemology, P-O-L-E, polemology, uh, is the [01:38:25] study, the scientific study of [01:38:30] war. And, uh, I write about everything else at osborneinc.com, and [01:38:35] I write about a lot of things there uh, politics, culture, just [01:38:40] whatever you, you have that isn't gender or war.
[01:38:42] Stephanie: So we'll make sure to include links in the show notes [01:38:45] to The Distance Mag, Polemology, and Osborne Inc., and people can [01:38:50] follow you on X. Are you down to one account now or do you still have two or three?
[01:38:53] Matt: There, there are three [01:38:55] accounts. Like there's, there's a Distance Mag account that just tweets articles and then there's a Polemology [01:39:00] account that just tweets articles.
[01:39:01] Matt: I'm on osborneinc.com if you wanna come find me. [01:39:05] If you just wanna follow the content, you can follow either one of those.
[01:39:08] SKOT: All right. Sounds good. Well, [01:39:10] thank you so much for joining me. It's been a pleasure.
[01:39:12] Matt: It's been fun. Thank you, Stephanie. [01:39:15]
[01:39:15] Stephanie: Thank you for listening to You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist. [01:39:20] If you enjoyed this episode, kindly take a moment to rate, review, share, or [01:39:25] comment on it using your platform of choice.
[01:39:28] Stephanie: And of course, please [01:39:30] remember, podcasts are not therapy and I'm not your therapist. Special [01:39:35] thanks to Joey Pecoraro for this awesome theme song, Half Awake, and to [01:39:40] Pods by Nick for production. For help navigating the impact of the gender [01:39:45] craze on your family, be sure to check out my program for parents, [01:39:50] ROGD Repair.
[01:39:52] Stephanie: Any resource you heard mentioned on this show, [01:39:55] plus how to get in touch with me, can all be found in the notes [01:40:00] and links below. Rain or shine, I hope you will step outside to breathe the air today. [01:40:05] In the words of Max Ehrmann, "With all its sham, drudgery, and [01:40:10] broken dreams, it is still a beautiful
[01:40:12] [01:40:15] [01:40:20] [01:40:25] [01:40:30] [01:40:35] [01:40:40] [01:40:45] world."