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A podcast to separate quack from fact in the health, fitness and wellness industry. Hosted by Dr. Bill Ferro and Erin O'Hearn.
Sponsored by Betr Health
Sandor Katz - 00:00:10:
What I can tell you is that fermented vegetables are about as safe as food gets. Certainly safer than eating those same vegetables raw. There's really no haste history anywhere in the world of illness or food poisoning from fermented vegetables. You know, it's about as safe as food gets.
Dr. Bill Ferro - 00:00:36:
Welcome to The Betr Podcast, where we attempt to rewrite the future of our health. I'm your host, Dr. Bill Ferro, the founder and CEO of Betr Health, and I'm very excited to introduce our guest today. He's a native of New York City, a graduate of Brown University, and a retired policy wonk, which I can imagine we could spend a whole other podcast just on that. But today, we are going to be talking about wild fermentation with Sandor. Sandor Katz, welcome.
Sandor Katz - 00:01:03:
It's a pleasure to be with you. Thanks for having me.
Dr. Bill Ferro - 00:01:05:
Right before we started, I hear you've been traveling. Anything exciting destination you just got back from?
Sandor Katz - 00:01:10:
Well, sure. I just have been teaching in Brazil for the last two weeks and what a beautiful place with so many amazing tropical fruits and friendly people like everywhere. Huge interest in fermentation.
Dr. Bill Ferro - 00:01:23:
Absolutely. So this is a huge topic for us and the work we do with people is trying to introduce them into what fermented foods are and in addition, realizing that we're kind of one of the only, for the US population goes that don't really have this as a standard in our diet.
Sandor Katz - 00:01:38:
I would disagree with you just from the start. I would say almost every person in the United States eats and drinks products of fermentation every day because they're so ubiquitous. Coffee is fermented. Bread is fermented. Cheese is fermented. Cured meats are fermented. Condiments are either fermented or rely upon vinegar, which is fermented. Yogurt is fermented. Vanilla is fermented. Chocolate is fermented. Beer and wine are fermented. I mean, it's very hard for a person anywhere to get through a day without fermentation because fermentation is so integral to how people make effective use of food resources everywhere.
Dr. Bill Ferro - 00:02:20:
Interesting. Then obviously not all fermented foods can be created eco and it talks about the nutrient benefits. That be a fair statement?
Sandor Katz - 00:02:27:
No, no, no. There's a, like a huge variation. But what I will say is that there's always a practical benefit to fermentation. Either it is enabling us to preserve otherwise perishable foods or it is creating alcohol or it is making foods more digestible and nutrients more bio available, or it is breaking down some kind of toxic component in the food, or it's simply making food more delicious because fermentation just creates a range of strong and compelling flavors. But you know, there are always practical benefits to fermentation, but no, what unites all fermented foods or beverages is that they involve the transformative action of microorganisms. And then beyond that, there's an incredible diversity. I mean, anything we could possibly eat can be fermented in a number of different ways and also a lot of variation in what the practical benefits are. And of course, you know, you could take something like bread or like beer and, you know, you actually can make versions of these foods that are incredibly wholesome and nourishing. And you also can make versions of these foods that are not. It depends on a lot beyond the fermentation. I mean, you know, what is the basic substrate that you're working with? Is it a whole food with fiber or is it something that has been fragmented and we're just sort of working with the, you know, less nutritious part of it? The world of fermented foods is extremely wide and varied.
Dr. Bill Ferro - 00:04:01:
And what got you into this? You went from being a political wonk to fermented foods. How did this come about?
Sandor Katz - 00:04:08:
Well, I would say that there were a few steps along the way. I mean, as a kid growing up in New York City, I loved pickles. I was not watching anybody make them. I didn't know anything about how they were made. But the pickles that my family was eating, and my grandparents are all immigrants from Eastern Europe, and we were eating the kind of pickles that in New York are called sour pickles. Now I can recognize that those are products of fermentation. And the acid that preserves them is lactic acid, which is a very different flavor than acetic acid, which is the vinegar pickles that are more commonly found in supermarkets in the United States. But I loved pickles. Then when I was in my mid-20s, I spent a couple of years exploring some different dietary ideas. And I spent a couple of years following a macrobiotic diet. And macrobiotics really was the first time that I started hearing about some of the special digestive benefits of live fermented foods, fermented foods that have not been heat processed or pasteurized or cooked after their fermentation. And I started noticing that these pickles that I'd been eating my entire life, whenever I would take a bite into one, I could feel the salivary glands under my tongue squirting out saliva. And I really began to associate these foods with getting my digestive juices flowing in a very tangible way and seeking out these foods. But I still wasn't really making them. And the impetus to investigate how to ferment food myself came when I moved from New York City to rural Tennessee 30 years ago. And I started keeping a garden. And the first year in the garden, we had a beautiful bed of cabbages. I was such a naive city kid, it had never occurred to me that in a garden, all of the cabbages would be ready at about the same time, or all the radishes would be ready at about the same time. So when I was confronted with this reality, what do we do with this beautiful bed of cabbages? This light bulb went off. And I was like, I love sauerkraut. I think it has something to do with preserving cabbage. Let me look into it. I found a recipe of the joy of cooking. It could not have been simpler. Shred cabbage, salt it, add seasonings if you like, get it all juicy, pack it into a jar so it's submerged, and then wait. And that first batch of kraut was so delicious that it encouraged me to experiment and go deeper. And I started making what we call country wines, like blackberry wine, elderberry wine. I started a sourdough and started learning how to bake with natural leavening. I made lots of different kinds of fermented vegetables. I started making Yogurt. I just completely went down the rabbit hole of fermentation. And it really was right at this intersection of gardening and cooking for people. And that's where I was putting my energy. And it just led me to fermentation. And it started with the practical impulse. And all I can say is that fermentation is very practical, including for people who are looking to transform their health. And while not all fermented foods are necessarily equal, fermented foods can be just extremely powerful, partly because of the probiotics that are present in raw fermented foods. And restoring biodiversity in the gut can just have so many incredible benefits for us, partially for the fact that fermentation makes nutrients more accessible. So in the fermented forms of many foods, we just get more minerals out of them, more of the protein out of them. And we just get our nutritional needs met better and more efficiently. And then also there are all of these, what we might call metabolic byproducts of fermentation, some of which have really extraordinary benefit for us, things that could be anti-carcinogenic, things that could be anti-inflammatory, even things that have very specific qualities like natto, this Japanese soybean ferment has just extraordinary byproducts, but people use it as a blood thinner and also to break down fibrin, which is like the fibers that sometimes build up inside people's blood vessels. So different fermented foods can have different benefits. In general, I think it's better for people to think about the broad and general benefits of live culture, probiotic fermented foods, rather than thinking like this particular food is going to solve this particular problem for me. Just because eating live fermented foods is really all about biodiversity and biodiversity does not solve a singular problem, but biodiversity can improve a whole range of functions in our bodies.
Dr. Bill Ferro - 00:08:48:
Absolutely, because I mean at the end of the day the human heals itself. So by creating better soil for the human cells to work off of is again, you said a wider range. Let's just start with sauerkraut. How many books currently have you written on this topic?
Sandor Katz - 00:09:01:
I actually have the stack of them here. So my first book on this topic was Wild Fermentation. This came out in 2003 and then I revised it in 2016. And I would say that this is the best general introduction for most people. There's recipes and it's very focused on how to ferment a wide variety of different kinds of foods or beverages. If you're looking for like a thick, pretty thorough book, The Art of Fermentation, I published this in 2012. I have had people say to me, this is too much information. I just wanted to know how to make sauerkraut. But if you're interested in microbiology, if you're interested in cultural aspects of how fermented foods and beverages sort of fit into a larger cultural picture, this book is full of lots of interesting details and it's also focused on how to. My most recent book is Fermentation Journeys and it's about foods and beverages that I've learned about in my travels in different parts of the world. And just now when I was in Brazil, I tried some really amazing fermented foods or beverages. Just part of the culinary landscape everywhere. Then I also wrote two books that are more peripherally related. This one is called The Revolution Will Not Be Microwaved Inside America's Underground Food Movements. This was published in 2006 and it's really about grassroots activism in relation to food. Everything from the explosion in local agriculture to the raw milk underground to people trying to recycle food waste, people involved in saving seeds of very localized varieties of vegetables. So a range of topics related to a grassroots reclaiming of our food. And then finally, this book, which came out during the pandemic, is called Fermentation as Metaphor. This is really about how in our English language, we use the word fermentation to describe any of these kinds of bubbly, excited, potentially transformative process. And so social movements, artistic movements, musical movements, all these things can be thought of as manifestations of fermentation as well. So yes, these are my five books.
Dr. Bill Ferro - 00:11:22:
I love it. And I love the wide array. We're going to come back to sauerkraut for a second, just because it's the easiest one, I think, for us. And maybe, I don't know, it was easy for me to try the first time, but I have a question. So when you're doing sauerkraut and you're doing fermented foods, is there a length of time that it takes for you to get the full amount of microbiology to happen? Is it 24 hours, 48 hours, 72 hours? Is there certain times that make it more potent, less potent?
Sandor Katz - 00:11:46:
Okay, well, you know, the answer is always going to be, it depends. It depends where you live and what the climate is like. Like the temperature has a huge, huge bearing on it. The warmer the environment, the faster the activity of the microorganisms. The cooler the environment, the slower the activity of the microorganisms. So Sauerkraut is a German name for a food that is enjoyed throughout all of northeastern Europe and really across the Eurasian landmass. It's most important in northern places that have a very limited growing season and generally a fairly cold winter. If you live in a place like that, you can shred up your cabbage, you know, and at the end of the growing season, you know, where I live, that might be November and some places that might be October and some places that might be September. And then if you have an unheated place where you can store it, you would just ferment it all winter long and into the spring and you would just take some and eat it at various stages of its development. When I say various stages of its development, the acids accumulate over time, the flavor gets stronger. Nobody's really ever waiting five months before they eat any of their Sauerkraut, but you may very well be still eating Sauerkraut five months after you ate it. But what you're eating after five months has a very different flavor than what you were eating after one month because the acids were accumulating, it got more and more sour. So you know, part of it is just climate, part of it is taste. Do you like the more assertive, stronger, sour flavor? Do you prefer a milder flavor? If you prefer a milder flavor, that suggests a shorter fermentation. Where I just was teaching in Brazil at a tropical place, like you really could never ferment it for like six months the way you can in a cold place. I mean, not that it would become dangerous, it would just become soft and mushy like baby food because there are also enzymes in play that break down the pectins that make the vegetables crispy and crunchy. So you know, in a really warm place or if you live in Florida or Southern California or where I live in Tennessee in the heat of the summer, if you're fermenting vegetables, you're fermenting them for quite short periods of time, you know, maybe a week, maybe 10 days and then you're getting them in the refrigerator. But so the variables are temperature, taste. You can ferment things for a few days and maybe that's the way you like them. And then you put them in the refrigerator really functions as a fermentation slowing device and then you just slow it way, way down. I recently had a Korean student at one of my residency programs and she made a few different styles of kimchi. But this one is called a water kimchi. There's very little spice in it. And, you know, her basic idea was this is something you would make in the summer when it's hot and it's suited to a much shorter fermentation. This is something that you might make in cooler weather that you could ferment for a much longer period of time. So salt becomes another variable. The more salt you use, the more it'll slow things down and also keep the vegetables crispy for longer periods of time. If you're going to ferment it for shorter periods of time or at cooler temperatures, you can actually use much lower proportions of salt. It's just highly variable. And, you know, I've heard of people fermenting everywhere from like a day to some years and you couldn't necessarily do some years everywhere. That really could only happen in a cool place where you have the ability to store things more or less at the temperature of the earth.
Dr. Bill Ferro - 00:15:36:
Got it. And then in terms of salt, are some people using table salt and some people say, no, but I'm only going to use Celtic Salt or Himalayan Sea Salt or something more natural to salt. I'm always trying to have people stay away from table salt if I can, but I'm curious does that matter in the fermentation process?
Sandor Katz - 00:15:53:
I mean, sure. I mean, I agree with you. My preference is unrefined salts, but for strange reasons that have to do with capitalism, unrefined salt costs 10 to 100 times as much as table salt, even though it requires much less work. Table salt, you've stripped out all the minerals that they can sell for pet food, vitamin supplementation, different kinds of things. So my preference is an unrefined salt, but the last thing I ever want is for someone to feel like, oh, I need to have enough money to buy this special fancy salt in order to ferment vegetables. And, you know, I've done more than a thousand public demonstrations with whatever kind of salt people have handed me. Iodized table salt with anti-caking agents will not stop the fermentation from occurring. There's such a small amount of iodine added in. And as a matter of fact, any of the fancy unrefined salts are going to have traces of iodine in them as well. So certainly you can get really, it could be really fun to experiment with different kinds of salts. Different salts have different kinds of flavors, but you can work with whatever kind of salt is in your kitchen. Let me just take like one minute and describe how easy it is to make sauerkraut. This is a jar of sauerkraut that's made primarily from daikon radishes and a little bit of bok choy. You can ferment any kind of vegetables. In general, you want to stick with firmer vegetables. They're just going to be easier because they'll maintain their firmness for a longer time than softer, more watery vegetables will. But, you know, let's start with cabbage, carrots, daikon or other kinds of radishes, other kinds of root vegetables. Celery works really well. Shred the vegetables to create surface area, lightly salt them. You don't need to measure the salt. You could find sources that say 2% salt, 2.5% salt, 1.5% salt. Salt it to your taste. We don't all have the same taste for salt. This is not rocket science. It does not need to be done in a precision way. Lightly salt it and then mix it up and taste it. And if you decide you need to add salt, add more salt. The first thing salt does is it starts to draw water out of the vegetables. Our primary objective is to get the vegetables submerged under their own juices. So once we create some surface area and lightly salt, the grains of salt are going to start drawing water out of the vegetables. We can speed up that process if we want to by squeezing the vegetables a little bit or pounding the vegetables a little bit. And that just breaks down cell walls and helps release the juices faster. After a few minutes of squeezing, you can pick up a little handful and squeeze it and it's like a wet sponge. And once your vegetables are nice and juicy like that, you pack them into your vessel. A pound of vegetables will fill about 16 ounces of a jar. Jars are the easiest. You can use like wide mouth canning jars work really well, but you can work in jars of any kind of size or scale. Pack your vegetables into the jar tightly so that you force the liquid up. You want to get the vegetables submerged under the liquid. What I'll often do is take maybe an outer leaf of cabbage or the butt of a big daikon radish and use that at the top just to sort of hold the other vegetables under the liquid. There's all kinds of beautiful little gadgetry you can get, little glass disks. If you live near a river or a stream, you can find some little stone that you can use to hold the vegetables down and just keep the vegetables submerged and then give it a few days, taste it, pack it back down, give it a few more days, taste it. And then you'll begin to familiarize yourself with the spectrum of flavors that are possible. You know, I would say the best thing you could do in terms of probiotics is eat it at different stages of its development because the composition of the microbial community is shifting as it develops. If you have different jars with different kinds of vegetables at different ages, then that's giving you more biodiversity. It doesn't have to be just one way. You can season them with anything. You can use different kinds of vegetables. This process is extraordinarily versatile.
Dr. Bill Ferro - 00:20:10:
It's amazing. I'm a big fan of when they add dill to it because I'm like you, I've always been a pickle fanatic. So a little sauerkraut, they add that flavoring to it just like out of this world. You mentioned something about there about salt and the industry. Let's shift over to what everybody talks about or has been talking about. Hey, I need my Probiotics. So let me take this Dannon Yogurt. And you mentioned about the milk industry. My nephews are big into drinking raw milk. Can you expound upon that where there's been a falsehood in my mind that people think that they're getting that Dannon Yogurt because they say it's got good probiotic in it. I know you could probably talk about this for a very long period of time. Can we talk about that industry and what kind of the falsehoods around Yogurt in store in terms of a good source of that and talk about pasteurized milk?
Sandor Katz - 00:20:51:
Well, okay, so the milk is pasteurized before it's turned into Yogurt. Almost all commercially available Yogurt has live cultures in them. Now, I mean, compared to traditional Yogurt cultures, most commercial Yogurt, I could call it dumbed down. Basically, the story is to the early microbiologists, these traditional fermented foods that exhibited extraordinary biodiversity were scary because they were thinking that bacteria were primarily related to illness and they wanted to get rid of all of the bacteria in the starter that they didn't regard as totally functionally necessary. So, you know, a microbiologist well over 100 years ago took samples of Bulgarian Yogurt and set out to determine which of the many bacterial strains in the Yogurt were functionally necessary and he identified two which have been used to define Yogurt in the laws of the United States, the European Union, the Codex Alimentarius for International Trade and that's really different from traditional Yogurt cultures. And, you know, if you try to make Yogurt from mass marketed commercial Yogurt that you'll find in a supermarket, you could make one generation really well, but then if you try to make more Yogurt from the Yogurt you made, it generally does not work well because the pure culture starters that they're using in the industry are really very different from the traditional heirloom cultures which were, you know, passed down from someone's grandma and continued. Some years ago, I was able to obtain an heirloom culture originally from Romania via a century in a New York restaurant called Yonah Shimmel. I've been making Yogurt out of that for well over a decade now. It's really wonderful. Generally with Yogurt, the milk is no longer raw because one of the steps in Yogurt is heating up the milk and then cooling it down to just a little bit higher than body temperature and then adding the culture and trying to maintain it at that above body temperature range for some hours. But I love making Yogurt, I love eating Yogurt. I love dairy products too, what can I say? My friends down the road raise goats, there's very little I love more than fresh raw goat's milk. The milk we can buy in the supermarket is a whole different story.
Dr. Bill Ferro - 00:23:24:
Interesting. We talk about your environment, where you live, you were just in Brazil, now you're back in Tennessee. So let's just say someone is taking your kraut from your farm and then eating it in California. Should they really be looking for local stuff made closer to them to get that bioavailability or is there a difference of the land, is the expression? I'm curious to see if different regions should be eating from their region or just going from different regions to get diversity.
Sandor Katz - 00:23:56:
Well, there's always going to be a difference. If I make some sauerkraut with vegetables from my garden right out here, and then my friend who lives two miles away makes sauerkraut with her vegetables that she grew two miles away, the gardens are going to be different. The soil microbes are going to be different. And so I think that that can be one of the very powerful things about working with extremely local ingredients is you're getting bacteria that's from your environment. When you eat them and those bacteria become part of your body, you are quite literally becoming your environment. But I don't think it's a bad thing to eat sauerkraut that's somewhere else made with vegetables from somewhere else. So I don't know. I mean, I think it's the perfect kind of food to support local producers. I mean, the easiest thing is to make it yourself. I mean, I just explained how utterly, utterly simple it is. As far as I can tell, there's small scale producers in pretty much every state of the US. So maybe you can find a local producer who's fermenting some local vegetables. And if you're not able to access that, there certainly are national brands that you can buy that are maintaining their live cultures. Generally with fermented vegetables, any products that have their live cultures intact are going to tell you that on the packaging because so many people are seeking it out for that. But there also are heat processed versions of these foods. I mean, you can find cans of sauerkraut in the supermarket. And that might be delicious, but because of the process involved in canning it, whatever bacteria were present in the original fermentation have been destroyed.
Dr. Bill Ferro - 00:25:41:
Got it. And when you teach courses, are they always in person or do online courses as well?
Sandor Katz - 00:25:45:
No, no, I do a mix of online presentations and in-person teaching. I mean, you know, when you're dealing with food that has, you know, smells and flavors and textures, obviously, you know, being in person is the best possible scenario. But I think that, you know, the pandemic like opened up this world of online teaching and I've certainly been engaging in it. Let me mention my website. My website is wildfermentation.com. And I have information about my books on my website. I have links to all kinds of interesting fermentation related resources. But I also post all of my upcoming teaching events and some things are hybrid. Like, for instance, I'm doing a presentation in two weeks that's with the British Library and there will be a sort of an in-person panel and people in the room of the British Library. And then I'll be here in my kitchen in Tennessee and people can tune in from anywhere in the world. So it's sort of a hybrid event.
Dr. Bill Ferro - 00:26:44:
Excellent. I think our members will love that. We'll make sure we post in our community and give them access to your website. I love your website. There's so many different resources in there. It did get me down a rabbit hole at times, but I really was really enjoying it. So I appreciate it. Last thing I want to touch on and then I know you've been traveling. So we're going to end the podcast. In terms of the getting started part of this, right, it seems like it's pretty simple to get started. You've mentioned a few things. When you're viewing this as an outsider coming in, is there a time of day? Is it like, you know, I should be doing this on a Sunday knowing that I'm going to start doing this on Monday. And it's a pretty basic question. But if you want, you know, sometimes just getting some results really quickly. How quickly can someone just get their first, let's say, batch up and running before they can start enjoying it?
Sandor Katz - 00:27:28:
I think the time to start is now, today. If you have a half a cabbage and a few carrots in your fridge, get started with them. If you need to run to the farmer's market or wherever you buy produce, go get some produce, you know, figure out what jar you have that you could devote to this and then just start shredding vegetables. In terms of how long to wait, I mean, it depends a little bit on where you're living. If you're living in a place that's warm, I think, you know, in two days you could have really transformed vegetables. If you live in a place that's cooler, you might want to give it three or four days. What I recommend that people do is, you know, taste it after two or three or four days, then pack it down, wait another two or three or four days, taste it again. If you do that a few times, you begin to familiarize yourself with the spectrum of flavors that is possible. If one day you taste it and you think like, oh my God, this is getting strong. I don't want this to get any stronger. Well, chances are anyone who is with us today has a fermentation slowing device in their kitchen. That's what a refrigerator is. One other question that I think is the block for many people, and that is fear of bacteria. I think that, you know, for people who have been, you know, told all of our lives how dangerous bacteria are for us, it can be really terrifying to chop up some vegetables, salt them, season them, pack them into a jar, and then wait. And I have such a vivid memory of the first time I taught a sour prop making workshop, which was 1998. This young woman, like, looked at the jar of vegetables we'd just shredded and she had this like worried look on her face. And her question was, how can I be sure I have a good bacteria growing in this jar and not some dangerous bacteria that might make somebody sick? So, you know, her asking that question, forced me to do some more research. You know, what I can tell you is that fermented vegetables are about as safe as food gets. Certainly safer than eating those same vegetables raw. There's really no haste history anywhere in the world of illness or food poisoning from fermented vegetables. You know, it's about as safe as food gets and the lactic acid bacteria that dominate every single time as they acidify the environment. If there happen to be some cells of Salmonella or E. coli or something that could potentially make you sick, they will be destroyed by the increasingly acidic environment. So this is just, you know, a very, very effective strategy for safety and, you know, try to let go of any fears that you might bring to this process.
Dr. Bill Ferro - 00:30:15:
Absolutely, and I brought up one other question. We have a gluten-free epidemic. We have so many people coming saying, I can't have gluten anymore, and yet I've heard people that started having fermented foods, particularly started with sourdough, and some of that, what they thought was a gluten sensitivity, went away. You have any experience with this, and have you seen that at all during your years of that? Is it really that we have all these people that can't have gluten, or is it just the fact that we can't break it down, we don't have the enzymes to break it down properly?
Sandor Katz - 00:30:44:
Well, I mean, first of all, I'll say if you're from vegetables, you don't have to worry about gluten at all. There's no gluten at all in this.
Dr. Bill Ferro – 00:30:49:
Sure.
Sandor Katz – 00:30:50:
Now, wheat and rye and certain other grains do have gluten. Fermentation can break down gluten. It's just the yeast fermentation cannot, but a lactic acid bacteria can. So, I mean, I certainly have met people who were previously unable to tolerate any amount of gluten, and then they started learning about sourdough fermentation and learned techniques that enable them to ferment the wheat-based dough for a long enough period of time that enough of that gluten gets broken down that they're able to eat it fine. I don't have any particular personal insights into, you know, what the source of the, you know, rise of gluten sensitivity is. My guess is that there's multiple culprits. I mean, there's like the breeding of wheat, which has prized gluten. And so the wheat we're eating has much, much more gluten than we in the past did. Part of it is how we're fermenting it. Pure yeast is an invention of the 20th century. All the bread up until the 20th century was done with a mixed leavening that included lactic acid bacteria that breaks down gluten. And generally with a mixed leavening, the fermentation times are longer. I mean, another huge factor is that there's evidence that residues of certain agricultural chemicals that are widely used might be disrupting some of our gut bacteria in ways that are creating greater sensitivity to gluten. So my guess is that there's a number of reasons, but I certainly have heard from, you know, many different people that, you know, well-fermented grains are easier for a lot of people to digest than grains that are not well-fermented.
Dr. Bill Ferro - 00:32:39:
I am so thankful that you're doing this work, so thankful that you dedicated your life to this. Really appreciate you coming to the podcast. I know you're probably exhausted and jet lagged and really do value your time and value the work that you're doing. So I will send everybody over to your site, wildfermentation.com, pick up those books, and then hopefully we can get some people to also either see you in person, meet you in person, or come to one of your online courses. So thanks again for your time today. I really appreciate it.
Sandor Katz - 00:33:04:
Great. It's been a pleasure.
Dr. Bill Ferro - 00:33:06:
Yes, sir. Okay, everybody. Thanks for listening to The Betr Podcast brought to you by betrhealth.com. For more episodes, be sure to subscribe to this feed on the podcast you're using right this second. And this episode was edited and produced by Earfluence. I'm Dr. Bill Ferro. We'll see you again soon on The Betr Podcast.