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Welcome to "Be Human," the definitive podcast for B2B leaders ready to catapult their 7-8 figure enterprises into new realms of growth through digital marketing. Hosted by Danny Murawinski, a seasoned digital marketing maven and former professional snowboard coach, "Be Human" offers a unique blend of insights that merge the art of relationship-driven sales with the science of digital scalability.
In a world where authentic connections reign supreme, learn how to finesse the critical human experiences at the heart of your sales, amplifying them digitally to resonate with your Ideal Customer Profile. Each week, we dissect the anatomy of successful sales relationships, crafting offers that not only speak volumes but are poised to echo across the digital expanse.
Danny brings over a decade of experience, connecting B2B ventures with giants from Fortune 500 companies to professional sports teams. His consultative prowess, honed on the snow slopes, now aims to elevate your business strategy through deep dives into the humanistic elements pivotal to relationship-building, alongside cutting-edge digital marketing strategies, tools, and techniques.
Join us for conversations with executives who've mastered the art of growth, navigating their B2B companies to towering figures. "Be Human" is more than a podcast; it's a weekly masterclass in leveraging genuine relationships for exponential digital growth. Tune in, and let's redefine what's possible for your business together.
Danny (00:01)
What's up, what's up. And welcome to be human, the definitive podcast for B2B leaders who have built their seven to eight figure businesses through relationship driven sales and are looking to cross the chasm into digital marketing. In be human, we break down the critical elements that make up the human relationship and the human experiences associated with that. And then we find ways that we can leverage the power of digital marketing.
for scale and scalability of that message to ultimately increase the relationships as well as drive business. And this particular episode, I can't be more excited to introduce you to our guest, Eric Gregory. We're going to be going deep into a concept called digital shaping, which is relevant to the government contracting industry. So let me go ahead and introduce Eric here. Eric Gregory.
currently serves mostly as a part -time executive consultant and advisor for Shipley Associates. From January 2013 to January 2019, he served as Shipley Associates Senior Vice President for business winning services in the East. In that role, he assured service delivery excellence for all consulting services provided to Shipley clients in the Eastern region. Eric has
47 years of continuous experience in the federal business development capture proposal operations and program support. Prior to joining Shipley associates, he led proposal operations for CA CI for 14 years as he grew from 325 million to 3 .8 billion. And yes, that's billion with a B.
His career led him to capture and proposal success in field engineering, chemical, nuclear, and biological detection, surface warfare, anti -submarine warfare, electronic warfare, and signals intelligence, night vision, information technology, earth and space sciences, and communications. Over his career, he achieved success with Bendix, Martin Morita,
Litton Industries, Hughes Certified, or I'm sorry, Hughes Aircraft and CACI. He twice served as the CEO for the Association of Proposal Management Professionals, APMP, and is an APMP Certified Professional, Proposal Professional, as well as an APMP Fellow. He has been honored with APMP's highest service award, the William C. McCray Memorial Award. Eric
also received CACI's top honor for service excellence, the Admiral Thomas H. Moore Award. He has been a regular speaker at APNP events and has also led three international conferences for the association. I mean, wow, Eric, glad to have you on the show and absolutely amazing experience. I don't know if I...
Eric Gregory (03:16)
Yeah, thanks, Danny. It's a pleasure to be here and that, you know, the mere fact that I survived for 47 years in this business is probably a, you know, a testament just to my stamina, but it's been a great experience and a great career. And now I'm at a point in my career where I have the opportunity to kind of give back to the community as much as I possibly can, which is kind of why I agreed to do this after we met.
at that recent APMP event because I've got a lot of, you know, knowledge and experience locked up in my brain and it's not doing me any good just sitting in my head. So I'm trying to give back now to the community that made me successful over the past 47 years.
Danny (04:02)
That's amazing. And I totally find that commendable. And, you know, I will say, it was fascinating. So I spoke at the ACA, NCA, chapter event, which is the, capital region for APMP. and that's where Eric and I first, you know, we didn't even, I don't even think we officially met in that event. I was a speaker, but yeah. but you had a lot of great comments and, and your commentary throughout that event.
Eric Gregory (04:24)
No, actually we did not.
Danny (04:31)
really resonated with me and my message, which is, you know, for us is the center of the human experience, right? And building these relationships. And I think that that resident, what you're the way that you described and contributed in that event really resonated with me. So I'm very happy to have you as I'm a guest. So Eric, let's go ahead and kind of jump right into it. And for starters, what I love to do is, you know, tell me a little bit about what your.
current role is today. So I know that you're doing some mentorship now. You're working, you're starting to give back more to the community. I think that's all great. So kind of give us an idea of who Eric is today and what's kind of your day to day activities. What are you gravitating towards?
Eric Gregory (05:18)
Well, right now, I work part -time and that, you know, mostly what I do in terms, and it fits right into the giving back to the community as much as possible. Mostly what I do now is I do training for Shipley Associates in terms of all of our core courses, capturing federal business in terms of writing federal proposals and then managing and writing federal proposals combination.
course that we offer. I also do and develop specialized courses for our clients as they need them. For example, I've recently developed some specialized courses in terms of helping companies improve their color team review processes, you know, how to do better winning with facts and data, which I really shouldn't have to explain to scientists and engineers, but it always helps to reinforce the concept.
And so I focus a lot on that. And then that's the enterprise activity. And then there's the altruistic activity that I have, which is the giving back where I mentor, you know, currently about 12 people in varying and varying ways across the US, and several in Europe as well. And so that has been very fulfilling for me. And so I try to engage with these folks on a regular basis.
They have the opportunity to ask me questions. I have the opportunity to give them advice and counsel, both in terms of very practical things as far as what they're doing with business development, proposals and capture, and also career advice in terms of what they might want to consider next in terms of career objectives, how to do career planning, you know, setting goals and objectives for the future that then will allow them to
grow their career in a similar fashion to the way I grew mine over the course of time. So all of that, you know, combined gives me a pretty active day in terms of the days that I work. And then I try and, and maintain my own personal space as much as possible, because anybody who knows me knows that I'm a very avid fisherman. And I tried to do that as much as possible. And that is probably
the only thing that keeps me human. Otherwise, I'd probably be some kind of an ogre. And so I really try and avoid, you know, I try to keep that balance there, in terms of, you know, professional and personal activities that, you know, that that make me just a, you know, a decent person, because I think that's really important to operate that way.
Danny (07:55)
I love that. And I mean, it's something that's so important in the way of taking care of yourself, right? And it's something that I've been on my own personal development journey, as of the last 12 months and finding time for yourself. It's so funny. And I think a lot of people don't realize that the more that you can focus in on yourself and making sure that your whole, the more you're able to give back and the more that you're able to help support others. so I totally agree with that. And I love the fact that you found fishing as that kind of outlet.
Eric Gregory (08:02)
like that.
Danny (08:24)
for you to go be yourself and to kind of unplug from everything else, right? So, and I gotta ask, you know, it sounds, you mentioned part -time, but that was a mouthful. That doesn't sound like a part -time role. I mean, that's a lot going on there, Eric.
Eric Gregory (08:49)
Well, I guess it's part time if you are used to working basically from seven in the morning till, you know, well into the evening. So it, you know, I kind of over the course of time, you know, I think I've cut my workload in, in half. And, you know, still there's plenty of stuff to do, but it, it certainly doesn't carry the level of stress that I had over the majority of my career, which is nice to have that reduced and to still be able to.
Danny (09:05)
and still here.
Eric Gregory (09:19)
have a fulfilling role both professionally and personally in terms of working with people to enhance their opportunities and career in the government space.
Danny (09:22)
That's great. I love that. Yeah, I mean, it's part time is all relative, right? So, well, let's let me ask you, you know, where did your journey begin? So to all the way back, where did this whole thing start? How did you get involved? You know, was this something that as a young, young boy, you're like, I want to be in the proposal space, you know, how did how did this whole thing come about?
Right.
Eric Gregory (10:01)
No, I never thought like that. Nobody thinks like that. I originally, you know, and this may have some bearing on why I kind of ended up where I wanted to. I originally wanted to go either to the Naval Academy or to West Point, but I went to Annapolis down the Naval Academy to take my physical in this old Chief Corpsman.
you know, who must have been in the Navy since the day he was born with all his hash marks, looked at me and he said, he said, he goes, son, he says, you can't see. And so he said, yeah, you can't come here. And it wasn't too long after that. I got a letter from the federal government that basically said, I can't go to the Naval Academy or any service academy. I can't, I can't enlist. And not only that, they wouldn't even draft me.
So that was that ruled out that part of my career aspirations and then I kind of Decided that I perhaps wanted to go into maybe oceanography but something about the mathematics kind of turned me off there and a little bit of worry and So I ended up basically Getting out of school. I went to school. I got a BA degree in political science and one in English And then I got a master's degree in English
And then once I completed my master's degree, I was totally broke and I needed to find a job. So I went to work in the government business in 1977 down near Pax River, Maryland at the Naval and Naval and Naval Electronic Systems Engineering activity down there as an editor and was bored out of my mind. Somebody came around and said, we need somebody to work on proposals.
And I said, please, I'll do it. I'll do anything. Because if I can't get off of this contract, you know, in terms of what I'm doing, I'll probably go jump off a bridge. So that's how I got into it. And it and I never left. And for a majority of my career, I had two jobs, working in business development, capture and proposals, as well as an operations job attached to engineering organizations.
where despite my better judgment, I was absolutely forced to learn quite a few technical things and how to learn to be a good operations support person, a good operations manager, and a good, you know, a good contracts manager as well, a good program manager. And so I actually ended up with the best of both worlds in terms of being able to gain that experience in terms of business development and operations.
Danny (12:33)
No, that's a...
That's no, that's fascinating. And honestly, you know, I got to say the, the, the both winning the contracts and then servicing the contracts. Right. And a lot of entrepreneurs do listen into this. and something that I preach from my entrepreneurial journey, right. Is it's one thing to go sell the and win the business. It's a whole nother thing to actually execute on the business. And when you do wear that both hats.
Eric Gregory (12:44)
which I think served me well throughout my career and really enabled me probably to accelerate my career because I understood both worlds very well. So that's how it all got started and I never left. Once I was in, I was sucked in forever and I really enjoyed it.
Danny (13:09)
I think it makes for a much, much stronger pitch, right? You understand what's required. So when it comes to those requirements, I think that that's absolutely for sure. So let me ask you, you know, so you mentioned you never left, right? So what kept you coming back? And I think, you know, just my knowledge of working with other folks in this industry, it's high stress, it's long hours.
RFP drops on a, on a Friday before Christmas, you're out there working on it, right? it's, it just is what it is. It's the nature of the business. And, I always find it fascinating. So what, what kept you kind of coming back to that space?
Eric Gregory (14:10)
Well, there are two things really. Number one is that I'm kind of an individual who can bore very easily. I have innate curiosity. If I'm not mentally stimulated all the time, I can become irascible, irritable, generally not nice to be around. So I have to have that mental stimulation all the time.
And so that's one thing that I found in this business is you never get bored and you always have to learn something new every day. You're absolutely learning something new. It doesn't matter whether it's a technology, whether it's something related to engineering, something related to science, something related to, you know, proposal production, whatever it happens to be, you know, you're learning something new every day. And that's kind of what kept me coming back. And then the other thing.
that kind of kept me back is I really am an adrenaline junkie, but I'm not jumping out of an airplane with a parachute. And so to get my adrenaline fix, what better way than to, you know, compete for federal business, which is hard. It requires structure, it requires discipline. It requires, you know, that rush of adrenaline.
in order to be able to compete effectively in a variety of different environments. So between the addiction to adrenaline and being bored easily, I found my home because I was never going to get bored. And I would always be able to get that rush that I like to have in terms of adrenaline. And some people know me pretty well and know that for a while, one of my favorite things to do to get my adrenaline rush outside,
Danny (15:52)
my god.
my gosh. So I got to ask, right? And, and, and I totally resonate with the adrenaline side. my background as a professional snowboard coach, I mean, I lived, lived eight, breathed, slept adrenaline, and I totally see how that relates inside of entrepreneurship, right? but I got to ask you, so walk me through it and maybe, maybe there isn't, I don't know. Is there a tie in? So you're cage diving.
Eric Gregory (16:06)
of this business was to go cage diving with great white sharks down at the Guadalupe Mexico. And the biggest one I ever saw there was 17 feet long swimming by me. And let me tell you, that will give you an adrenaline rush.
Bye.
Danny (16:25)
with 17 foot great white sharks is nothing more between you and that animal, but these thin bars that hopefully the animal doesn't turn on. Cause I have seen videos where some, an animal of that nature can turn that into a tin can. Right? So it offers some level of protection, but it's not ultimate protection. So is there an example that you've had and like a high stakes adrenaline rush in your professional career where.
those moments of jumping into that cage and seeing that great white shark are some of the efforts that you're actually doing.
Eric Gregory (17:29)
Yeah, I'd have to say that there have been some moments like that. I can remember one on a very large recompete one time where I had to go and conduct some interviews with some potential with customers. And I knew this one individual was going to be the chairman of the source selection evaluation board on this one huge recompete. And so.
trying to make that human connection in terms of trying to understand what was important to that person. I went and had a little visit with them, which sometimes I would fulfill that role within the company, trying to get my own sense of ground truth in terms of where we stood competitively. And this individual looked me dead in the eye and said,
Danny (18:07)
Wow.
Eric Gregory (18:21)
Then this was a multiple award contract. So there were going to be two awards. Just looked me dead in the eye and said, you will not get an award this time. Now that was a year in advance of the solicitation coming out. And after I kind of recovered, you know, my composure in terms of that, I, you know, I did that very simple human thing, which is necessary in our business. Why?
Danny (18:24)
Mm.
Eric Gregory (18:51)
you know, and sometimes we don't do that. And then after, you know, I took the load, you know, both barrels into the chest, basically, the adrenaline kept in. And for the next year, you know, we had to do everything we possibly could, in order to be able to, you know, make sure that we were not going to lose that particular effort. So,
That's pretty much like getting into that water with that shark. You know that you can be safe and you know that you should enjoy the experience. But there's also that little bit in the back of your head, the what if this all goes south. And so the analogy in terms of the shark diving is if you were going to go into the deeper cage,
Danny (19:34)
Hahaha.
Eric Gregory (19:48)
every time you went into the deeper cage, which went down 35 feet, you got a safety briefing. And part of that safety breathing went like, and if we need to abandon the cage, I'm not coming out of cage, right. And so that was kind of that moment, you know, that I had with that particular customer was somebody saying, you know, we have to abandon the cage. And you can imagine, you know, the rush that that had.
Danny (20:01)
I love that. I love connecting those dots and I got to ask. So did you end up winning that award? Did you end up winning the recompete then or look at that.
Eric Gregory (20:17)
and the work we had to do for the next year to make sure that we were going to be successful. So those are some of the challenges that you can face that are analogous with some of the things you like to do.
Absolutely. Absolutely. And the way we did that, the way we did that is we went back and this is what, you know, this is one reason why I agreed, you know, to do this with you because of the just be human aspect of it. The way we did that is we had to regain trust. We had to regain confidence. We had to regain discipline. We had to regain communication. We had to regain
all of those human things that we needed for our customer to be successful. And that is absolutely critical in this business. And we have a tendency to forget that sometimes. And so that was a great learning experience in terms of you need to be human in front of your customers every day because your absolute responsibility to them is to make them successful.
Danny (21:10)
Yeah. Yeah. I know that's a, that's amazing. And, and, and I'd like to kind of pull the thread a little bit more on that. So, you know, here you have, and I think a lot of folks it's, you know, you're coming up for recompete and that individual says, you're not going to win. Right. And I think for a lot of people that triggers that fight or flight mode and a lot of people might fly, right. They might run from that and think, well, why waste, why put the effort in? They've already told us what's going to happen. Why put the effort in?
Eric Gregory (21:35)
as other humans. End of story.
Danny (21:39)
And you took a very different approach. And as you talked about, you know, being a human and doing those human elements, building up the trust, building up the rapport, you know, be having empathy for the, for the client, showing caring for the client and understanding where they're at as to why that individual told you, I'm not, you're not going to get an award. You were like, well, why? And then that why wasn't just a one -off question for what I'm understanding that why.
was set to be answered over the course of the next 12 months. So what were some of the things that you were doing to help rebuild that rapport and the trust with that client? Can you walk us through some practical examples, maybe like two examples?
Eric Gregory (22:11)
as you talked about being a human.
Yeah, I mean, the first one's real easy. Number one, what I took it to mean was not an absolute. I didn't look at it as an absolute that you're out of the game. What the way I looked at it is, I'm trying to get your attention. You're not listening.
And when I did some further investigation, because what I had to do is I had to go interview all of the leading customers on that particular contract. What I discovered was that was the majority of the problem. We weren't listening to what they were telling us. We were so focused on ourselves. We forgot that we were working.
for them and that our job was to make them successful. And if we made them successful by definition, we were going to be successful. And so that listening aspect became critical. The other thing is that once you found out and you asked the right questions in terms of what do I need to do to fix this? What do you need us to do in order for you to be successful? You had to make sure
Danny (23:46)
and we will continue to do that.
Eric Gregory (24:12)
that you took action swiftly and precisely and demonstrated that you could deliver results quickly. Because that was the only way that you could regain the trust and the confidence that you could, in fact, make that customer successful. And so we did from a corporate point of view, we did some smart things. We made some additional investments in customer success.
in terms of investments where we were going to spend our money in order to solve problems that were important to that customer and make sure that we were progressing them through achieving their mission and operational needs that they needed us to solve for them. And so those two things made a huge difference. Three things really, listening, action,
Danny (24:51)
That's that's excellent. Excellent advice. And it reminds me Are you familiar with Jocko Willenick?
Okay, he wrote a book called Extreme Ownership. He's a former Navy SEAL. He was deployed in Iraq. He's got a company I'll send it for this. It's called, if you look up Jaco good. It's a it's a very short YouTube video that he did. And he talks about when stuff doesn't go the way that you want it to go. He goes, good opportunity to do it. Right. And that's the whole gist of the spiel. And it reminds me very, very much about his kind of message and teachings of
Eric Gregory (25:10)
and investment to prove that we were serious about recovering their trust and their confidence in us to do the job.
I can't say that I am.
Danny (25:30)
We need to take extreme ownership and accountability for ourselves. And it sounds like that was something that you guys did when you heard the no, you were like, okay, we need to look internally. What are we doing wrong? And part of that's that self -awareness and not, and when I say something, I don't mean you individually. I mean you as collectively as a company or that self -awareness was to say, huh, we're not listening. We need to listen more. And then when we hear what we're doing, we're going to respond with action.
so they actually see the result. And I think that that's so critical when we're building relationships in general. I think that it's too easy to talk. It's too easy to have the fluff and everything else, especially in this day and age in the digital landscape, I see it all the time versus, hey, okay, we heard you. I'm gonna repeat it back to you. And then we're gonna go execute.
so I love that part and you definitely should, I think you would appreciate it, especially in your role. Now I'll send you over the link and get you the book, Jocko Willinex extreme ownership. I think you would find it pretty fascinating. but that's, that's excellent. Let's, let's jump into kind of the next piece of this, right? and that's about the relationship. So I know that we talked a little bit and what is one relationship in particular?
that you can identify as having the most significant impact throughout your journey in your career.
Eric Gregory (27:06)
Sounds great.
Yeah, I think there were actually two I tried to, you know, I tried to think of one, but there were actually kind of two that I think were really seminal and I could and I actually have a third one that's kind of funny that I might talk about briefly too. But two were two of the best capture managers that I've ever seen in my entire career. And there's probably five great ones that I've worked with in my career. And I'm not one of them even though.
You know, some people might think I'm really good at it. I'm not one of those five, I guarantee you. But, you know, but these two were fantastic. And one, one's name was Bob Lee. And he worked for Westinghouse at the time, which became, you know, part of Northrop Grumman, eventually. And Bob was just an absolute master from a capture and business development perspective.
The way he worked was very understated, but he was a master at orchestrating activity and holding people accountable. I learned from him basically, you know, how to manage a large team by a combination of personality, combination of expectation and a combination of
managing by action item list. And watching this guy work a capture was like watching somebody orchestrate and choreograph a ballet in terms of what he was able to do. It was art. And I think that's sometimes what we forget about business development and doing government business and managing people.
Danny (29:16)
Wow.
Eric Gregory (29:29)
It is art and it's an art that we need to put in front of people in terms of the way we operate, the way we get things done. And Bob was just a master at that. And we worked on this particular effort, this particular capture for two years. And it was huge. And so we needed that level of commitment from people. And you can imagine over the course of two years.
all the activity that needed to be done. It was a very high tech procurement. Some of the stuff we were doing was almost bleeding edge kind of stuff, but it was very important to be able to do it. And he really helped me because I ended up with the responsibility for the systems engineering part of the proposal. And I'm not a trained engineer. I picked all this stuff up.
as I moved through my career. And so he was able to help me do my job, you know, by being supportive, by answering questions, by having confidence, and by enabling me, you know, to perform that lead. And I was a subcontractor to them. So I wasn't even one of their employees, I was a subcontractor, and still had this huge responsibility. So I certainly
Danny (30:50)
Mm.
Eric Gregory (30:54)
I learned so many things from Bob in terms of how to manage a large effort. The other person that really I really benefited from at Hughes aircraft was a gentleman who's now deceased by the name of Saul Velansky. Saul was an amazing capture manager. What I learned from Saul was the importance of systems thinking.
Saul was the most brilliant person I ever met in terms of his ability to synthesize information from disparate sources, whether it was customer information, competitor information, or company information, and synthesize that in such a way that he was able then to come up with capture strategies and solutions that fundamentally were unbeatable. And so,
I learned that from him in terms of paying attention and how to synthesize information in such a way that would enable me to come up with capture strategies that were both innovative, creative, and executable. And so those were just two people that I really learned a lot from. And then the third one, this is funny. And I...
I probably shouldn't tell this story, but it's hilarious. I had, I worked on the same effort of my manager that I had, you know, for the company I was working for at the time, periodically, you know, would come around, to my office. He'd come into my office and he would just start yelling at me and he would tune me up and he would tell me how I was screwing this up, not doing this right. And then.
And then, you know, I needed to get my act together and then he'd just leave. And so, you know, this went on for like about a year. And finally he came around one day and started that. I stopped him on his tracks. I said, I said, I said, Floyd, what are you doing? You come in here about every three months, you rip me a new one, you spin me up, you get me all upset and I'm not sure, you know, and then you leave.
Danny (33:13)
Ha!
Eric Gregory (33:23)
What's the deal? So he just kind of started laughing. He said, well, I noticed. He said, I noticed about every three months you kind of go into a blue funk. You kind of and your productivity wanes and you just kind of it's almost like you're, you know, depressed and just not happy. He said, so I discovered that if I come around and tune you up a little bit, you become the most productive person I've ever seen in my life.
And then I had to think about it for a minute and he was right. And it was kind of funny and maybe that was not necessarily the right way to approach the problem. But he certainly got me productive quickly, easily, and it would last a while. Right. And what I learned from Floyd, maybe I learned a better way, which is pay attention to what's going on with your folks, because that's what he was doing. He was paying attention.
to some very small details in my own behavior that would lead him to conclude that he needed to do something in order to make me a more productive member of the team. Now, you know, he probably could have just sat me down and maybe had a conversation, but maybe he knew me well enough to know that wouldn't work too. So I learned that skill in terms of pay close attention to your team, everything that's going on with everybody.
and check in with them periodically. Is everything okay? Do you need anything? If somebody's acting a little bit odd, just ask them what's going on in your life because it's clearly something and find out and be human, you know, and make sure that you understand how your team is working, interacting, and remember that they have outside forces that are stimulated them as well.
as their daytime job. And we need to pay attention to all that in order to be effective and to get our teams to be able to be highly productive, high performing teams. One of the things, and I learned that from Floyd, surprisingly enough, even though his method was a little unusual, that I had to pay attention, you know, to everybody on that team, if I wanted them to be high performers and to understand what's going on.
Danny (35:19)
I love that Eric. I mean, I, and I, you know, one common theme, it sounds like I'm hearing across those three different examples is the amount of empathy that you practice. Right. And I talk a lot about empathy, especially, you know, a lot of folks and that are in our audience are in the space of B2B sales. Right. And, one of the things that I've seen a lot of success on and a key element to this is to realize when you're approaching somebody for the first time,
Eric Gregory (35:44)
in every aspect of their lives to ensure that I could make them feel comfortable in terms of their ability to deliver what we needed them to deliver.
Danny (35:50)
that person has gotten every place that they've gotten to without you. They've done a lot of things and without your interaction. And we need to have that level of empathy around that for those new people that we do enter into our lives. But then on the other side of that, what I just heard too, is also having empathy for your team and understand understanding where they are at in their journey and what you as a leader can do to help support that. And
just because someone might be struggling or they might be having issues, it may not be directly related to the work at hand. It might be something in their personal life. So being able to demonstrate that empathy to people, I think it opens up platforms in which you're able to connect on higher levels with those individuals. I mean, would you agree with any of that or what's your kind of take on?
Eric Gregory (36:45)
and we're understanding where we are.
absolutely. And I think if you don't do that, I think you fail in two ways. Number one, you fail in your responsibility to lead, and you also fail yourself in terms of your responsibility to learn. And you can't do that. You've got to be able to put yourself in a position in terms of trying to get your teams to perform.
where you were demonstrating concern for those individuals and their lives in terms of being able then to get them to contribute at a higher level than they otherwise might. And then of course, if you don't do that, you're failing to teach yourself then how to simply be a better leader by having better understanding.
and more empathy and trying to figure out then how to make all of that work together in such a way that you can achieve a common objective. Because this is not easy stuff to do. And unless you have that level of support basically from a team, people wonder why.
Teams go awry sometimes in this business on big programs. And I can tell you it's usually poor leadership and poor communication. And so you may want to make sure that you are active as a leader, you're leading by example, and that you're communicating effectively in order to be able to ensure that your team is going to perform at the expectations that you set.
Danny (38:52)
Absolutely. No, I love that. And, you know, I think that's a key takeaway for the audience here is in the way of empathy, right? And especially in the digital space where, you know, in LinkedIn, I'm sure you've seen it, Eric, actually, it's funny. Fun fact. I didn't realize this, but I actually prospected back in my days as a CMO for Scion, the initial connection message that I sent you was exactly the thing that I'm preaching against now.
Eric Gregory (39:11)
And that's one thing I learned from Saul was set those expectations high, but set the expectations in such a way that it's clear that you have committed to helping people achieve those expectations.
Danny (39:21)
which is, Hey, look at me and buy my stuff. Right. which is exactly the direction that I, that's, that's how we first connected. So it's funny that this is full circle coming back around to it because I've learned quite a bit since those days. And I think in the way of digital space, I think that there's something that's to be said and missing as far as when you first reach out and meet somebody, when you're trying to meet somebody digitally for the first time, and that is to take the time and actually have the empathy of,
where they are in their career. And luckily there is a lot of information that people post about themselves all the way down to if you do the digging into their other social media handles outside of LinkedIn, you can see parts of their life. You can see things that they're interested in. So to be able to connect on that level and then realize that on your initial connection that they've done their entire life without you. And in their perception, they don't necessarily need you to move forward.
So at that point, you actually need them because of their story, their background and all the things that they'd done. And so rather than taking the approach that I took even with you, Eric, which was, Hey, buy my stuff and a connection message. I think it probably would have been a lot more beneficial for the both of us had I just approached you with, Hey, Eric, I did some digging and I saw all the things that you've done. I'd really be curious to hear about what brought you to that place.
And maybe if you're open to it, give me a critique on the thing that I have that I'm trying to sell. And I think that that would open up a much more warmer palette for people to be like, okay, I'll give you the time of day. I may not give you an hour, but I might give you a little bit more of a thoughtful response. And by the way, Eric gave me a great response and directed me to the person I need to talk to. So I do give him credit there, but that's something that we're seeing all over the place in digital. And that kind of leads me into my next question for you.
which is, you know, how did you initially meet? And let's just stick with Bob for the one example for this one. How did you initially meet Bob? And, you know, how did that kind of transpire from, cause it sounds like you almost got him in as almost like a mentor in this process too, as he was kind of helping you expand your knowledge base and over the course of those two years of working together. So how did you initially meet him? And what was that kind of like?
Eric Gregory (42:18)
You know, a lot of this, a lot of this, you know, is, you know, is before we had all this digital environment that we could operate in. But it doesn't really change anything in terms of how that works. I mean, I was assigned to that team. And so working as a subcontractor, part of the subcontractor team on that particular effort, you know, I met Bob initially when I was assigned to that effort and had to, you know, then move into his environment.
into his war room, you know, for this particular capture effort since he was the capture manager. And so that's how we met in terms of I became an integral part of that team as you know, as a subcontractor person. And so I think it was kind of, I just resonated, you know, well to his style of leadership. And I think he figured out pretty quickly that I was structured.
structured discipline and organized, and just a really good candidate to lead that systems engineering portion, you know, of the capture and proposal effort. And so it just was one of those things where he had a skill and I had a capability. And we kind of put that together very quickly. And it just the personalities, you know, kind of, you know, I think worked well.
He needed somebody with the drive and energy that I had, and I needed somebody who could kind of keep me under control a little bit. And so it just, you know, it just worked out really well in terms of that. And I think that's one reason why I was able to learn so much is because I did view it not so much as manager, you know, kind of, you know, servant kind of deal. I looked at it more as mentor.
you know, in terms of guidance. I know what to do, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to ask you what I could do better, what you need, what you want, you know, make sure I understand what your timelines are, your expectations, and I will do everything I can to fulfill them. And so I think it worked out really well that way. And I think that goes right along with kind of what you're saying in terms of some of the
you know, the digital marketing that we can do. I mean, you know, one of the things you want to try and do in terms of digital marketing, you want to make sure that you can be identified, you know, by a potential customer as somebody that they can trust, have confidence in and
Danny (44:55)
Mm.
Eric Gregory (45:12)
you might actually have a good idea or two that they might be interested in. And initially, I'm not sure you need to go beyond that in terms of trying to put that out there. Because I think that's what Bob and I kind of did for each other in terms of wasn't a digital environment. But that's exactly what we did. We put out there one to the other, you know, here's why you can trust me. Here's why you can have confidence in me.
Danny (45:17)
Mm.
Eric Gregory (45:39)
And by the way, I got some pretty good ideas that you might want to take advantage of. And it clicked. And we had a really great time. And we had fun on that. That's the other thing I learned. Have fun. Because we had this thing, we had this thing on that, on that particular effort. I won't give away the program. But we, you know, we had our BB guy was kind of like, he was, he was great.
Danny (46:07)
my gosh.
Eric Gregory (46:10)
But he was kind of like a subversive in some respects. He would put this thing together. He would publish it every couple of weeks and it was called the Groupie Gram. And so, and it would make fun of all the senior level executives at that operation. And it got to the point where, you know, they, they were really trying to root out, you know, who was putting this thing together. Cause I mean, it was like,
Danny (46:20)
I love that.
Eric Gregory (46:39)
It was like reading Dilbert cartoons every couple of weeks. And it was fantastic. And the morale boost that it gave to that team was really great. So that's the other thing that you learn about this stuff too. You got to have some fun doing it. And you can do that in digital marketing as well. You can remind people that...
Danny (46:59)
Totally agree. I absolutely love that. And, you know, it's interesting, like kind of what you were describing on and hitting on and one of the ways that we can kind of connect the dots. So there's a big thing going around right now in the digital space. And that's all focused around personal brand. And I think so many people don't understand, like they, when they think a personal brand out on the digital landscape, they think like, what kind of videos am I going to share? What am I going to wear? What am I going to say this, that, and the other?
Eric Gregory (47:07)
Not only are we here to make you successful potential customer, we're also here to have some fun doing this stuff as well. It doesn't have to be painful all the time. You know, we're humans. Humans like to have fun. And if you can convince them that something may be difficult, but we're still going to have some fun working together, you get much better performance out of it.
Danny (47:29)
But I think you just hit the nail on the head because what you were doing with Bob when you first initially met him was it was your personal brand. It just came out naturally as to who you were and how you operated as a human being. And Bob recognized that as a differentiator. And then that relationship cultivated into that instead of it, like you said, like boss servant kind of relationship, it turned into more of mentor mentee.
Eric Gregory (47:36)
Yeah, absolutely.
Danny (47:56)
And then it was this constant feedback loop of you guys learning from one another. You taking the information that you were getting and then applying it in your every day. And ultimately that was strengthening that relationship. And I think it's something to be said about that when we get into the digital space. And then I want to talk about the fun too, but when we put ourselves out there digitally, it shouldn't be a challenge to figure out what to post because what we're posting is authentic. It's us.
And even though that's hard to do sometimes, and granted, there's a bunch of different ways you can do it. Some people don't like being on camera. That's fine. Write an article. You know, you don't have to be on camera to deliver the same kind of message around it. But I think that that's, there's something to be said where it's just like, look, I just, you just need to share the parts of what make you you. And that's what you should be focusing in on and driving. And then ultimately showing that fun. So, you know, I can imagine.
doing the Gilbert, if you will, cartoons of the executive leadership team, that could be received in one of two ways. That's either gonna A, the team that you're poking fun at, the ego's gonna get in the way and they're gonna be extremely offended by it and go down and lop heads. Or if I was in that position and I saw that happening, you could also lean into it and participate in the fun.
So in the digital space, I'm almost imagining like if there's this culture of like the team's kind of poking fun at the executive leadership team, it's like, well, if they got wind of it, what if they made a skit where they leaned into the caricatures that their team played? How would that build on that relationship within the team? If anything, everybody would have a great laugh and the executive leadership team would likely connect in a much, much deeper place with that team.
to better understand why the phone was being poked in the first place, all still while demonstrating a very positive company culture, which all of that matters, especially on the scalable side and digital, when we are trying to build rapport with strangers and deals and things of that nature, that gives them a glimpse of the window. So I don't know if that's something that you've ever crossed, but when you mentioned that, I was like, my gosh, what an amazing opportunity for the executive leadership team, right?
That's great.
Eric Gregory (50:50)
Well, I think, you know, I think I'm a lot smarter than I was then. And I think it took me a while to kind of figure out that in terms of making fun of the executive team and their desire to kind of, you know, root out who the culprits were, I think they were actually playing into it to some degree in terms of making a bigger deal out of it than they might have to kind of keep us entertained a little bit too. So I think in terms of...
I think they figured out what their role was. Their role really was to kind of, well, let's stir it up a little bit and keep these folks kind of engaged and let them have their fun. Because nobody ever really suffered any consequences, you know, from what went on. And some of it was pretty severe criticism too. And I know that same level of criticism had probably been, you know, leveled at me and I was sitting in their seats. My first...
My first inclination probably would have been to laugh because it was funny. And my second inclination probably would have probably been, I want to find out who the creative genius is behind this stuff, but maybe get them to tone it down a little bit. So I think they did play their role in terms of kind of keeping us inspired to have some fun with that. I think we didn't recognize it till later that they were active participants in the fun as well.
Danny (51:53)
That's funny. And look, I mean, this is a note to any of anybody out there listening to this. It's a part of the bigger companies out there in the government contracting. Take this as a note of Eric's story here. Imagine if your company did something like this publicly. It's crazy to think about because we all think in the same path and most of what you see in the digital landscape is very synonymous. Something like this would make your company stand out.
Eric Gregory (52:18)
in terms of trying to, you know, trying to, you know, convince us that, you know, that they were really going to try and ferret out who these, who these culprits were within the organization.
Danny (52:20)
well far beyond the crowd and probably encourage a ton of engagement around it, right? Bringing a lot of attention back to your company and back to how amazing your company culture is. Something that is missing in this space. So I just wanted to highlight that on this one, Eric, because I think it's a brilliant story. So let me ask you kind of the next question in this. And then, you know, we're kind of hitting on a lot of this stuff in tandem, but what in some ways,
And we can go back to all three examples, right? But what are some ways in which you actually nurtured these relationships? Because it's one thing to get started, right? It's one thing to meet somebody, but the real work in any relationship, in my opinion, is the efforts beyond the initial meet, and that's the nurture, right? And so I'm curious, you know, what were some of the ways in which that you nurtured these relationships? And how did that kind of impact your career trajectory at the time?
Eric Gregory (53:55)
Well, I think, you know, again, with Bob, it was over a two year period was solid. It was like kind of like over a four year period that I really kind of had access to him. And, and the best way I found to kind of nurture those relationships, in terms of making it beneficial for everybody was basically, you know, to, you know, have a little humility. And when you ran into when you ran into a problem or a concern or
something, you know, ask them, say, you know, just have a conversation in terms of, hey, do you have a minute? There's nothing, you know, there's nothing more pleasing to the human mind really, than to have somebody ask you, do you have a minute? Because that's telegraphing that they've run into a problem, they've run into an issue.
Danny (54:27)
Mm.
Eric Gregory (54:52)
And they value whatever it is that you're going to tell them. And so in terms of nurturing that relationship, that's always kind of been my strategy is do you have a minute? You know, I want to talk to you about something. I don't want to take up a lot of your time, but I need your opinion. And so I would use that, you know, with with both of those folks in terms of trying to gain knowledge and trying to gain information that I thought would be
useful, not just to me, but useful in terms of being able then to do a better job, to kind of increase probability of win on the efforts that I was working to kind of expand my knowledge and experience in such a way that if I didn't ask for that, I would miss the opportunity. And so I think it can be that simple in terms of nurturing, you know, those relationships and then.
Danny (55:34)
Yeah.
Eric Gregory (55:52)
Of course, you know, the other part of that is once they finish giving you, you know, their opinion and you've absorbed, you know, what it is they're trying to explain, you just, you just always say, don't forget if there's anything I can do for you, you know, reach out. So you've, you've implicitly, you know, demonstrated that you have trust and confidence in somebody.
And then you've also made an offer, you know, basically that you can have trust and confidence in me, because if you need anything, I'd like to reciprocate. and I think that's all it really takes in terms of professional relationships in order to be able to develop, you know, high value relationships, within your organization, you know, outside of your organization, once you've had an initial introduction, you know, I try and do that. I try and do that with the people.
that I mentor, you know, I try, I try and remind them you are free to contact me, you know, by email, by text, I don't care phone call me, whatever. If you have anything you want to talk about, you know, let me know. That's why I'm here. And so and then the other thing that I remind them of is it by the way,
You don't understand maybe, but I get as much if not more benefit out of this than what you get in terms of that nurturing. It's definitely a two -way street. And I think if we just approach it that way in terms of our relationships, as far as pursuing government business, it makes a huge difference. And I think we need to kind of take the same way, the same approach with our customers and potential customers. And I think we kind of need to take the same approach in terms of
Danny (57:28)
I love that. And I, and I totally agree with, and I think the one key thing that I pulled out from that, right, is the reminder and the regular reminders that you're an advocate for them. And right now, what you see, and you've probably experienced this yourself, but what's happening in the digital marketing space is that they are sending a lot of reminders, but they're sending a lot of reminders about features and benefits of them. Right. And we're missing the ball.
Eric Gregory (57:43)
digital marketing, in terms of demonstrating, you know, that I have something to offer, but I'm going to ask you to, you know, what do you have to offer in terms of, you know, what I might benefit from so you can get some reciprocity going. And I think that strengthens the bond significantly right from the right from the start of whether it's a personal or professional relationship.
Danny (57:57)
Because the reminder needs to be, hey, I value this relationship. I value meeting you. And I just want to give you a reminder that I'm here to help support your next path in your next journey, whatever that may be. And yeah, of course I have things to sell. But at the end of the day, everybody, we're living in a culture, in a society that we're not selling anymore. People are buying. And I truly believe that.
We're in a buying culture because of the access to information that we have. So when we are building these relationships and we're doing this digitally at scale, we don't need to constantly remind them about the stuff that we're selling. Rather, we need to constantly remind them that, hey, guess what? You now have a new advocate in your corner cheering you on to your success.
Eric Gregory (58:36)
and we're missing the ball. Because the...
Danny (58:50)
And whatever that may be through all the different things that we can do, I think that's where the reciprocity starts to let set in because what ultimately ends up happening is, is if you start bringing value to another person, inevitably they're going to look more into who you are and what you do. And I think that, you know, even when in this relationship with you, Eric, you know, I definitely looked a lot more into what you do. I looked into your social media. I looked into everything prior to this.
Because I wanted to know more about you so I could best set this platform up in such a successful manner that you could share your story, right? So I think that there's something to be said about that when we are going into nurturing on the digital. Definitely send the reminder, but make sure that the message of the reminder is that you are an advocate and that you're there to help them. And ultimately they will help you in return.
It's just the way that we work, but someone's got to make that first step. And if you're, if you're the one that's valuing the relationship that you see the potential of the business, we got to send the appropriate reminders, not the reminders of look at my stuff, look at my features, look at my benefits. I mean, do you, would you agree with that?
Eric Gregory (1:00:46)
Yeah, and in fact, if I were going to do a digital marketing campaign for a specific customer right now, I mean, I would orient it around, you know, the aspect of putting stuff out there that starts with what if, what if I were able to solve this problem? What if I were able to solve this problem? Something that I knew you were interested in. I'm not going to give you the answer. What if I were able to solve this problem? I've given you all sorts of information with my what ifs.
Number one, I know what your problems are. Number two, I'm clearly working on your problems. Number three, there's some pretty good bet that I got some answers to some of those problems, but I'm not going to put them out there on social media, right? But I've given you all the hints that should probably pique your interest in terms of maybe you do want to kind of contact me and then actually ask me, have you really solved some of these? Absolutely. Let me tell you how, you know, because, you know,
that's where we begin to generate interest in terms of those what ifs because what we're playing to then is knowledge of a customer, knowledge of their problems, and we're kind of providing them some type of inducement to contact us through curiosity because very clearly we're working on things they're interested in and we probably have some answers that might actually help them be successful in terms of solving their problem.
Danny (1:02:10)
Mm -hmm
Eric Gregory (1:02:12)
And so that can be an initial part of getting the conversation rolling because when you get right down to it, digital marketing is really all about getting the conversation rolling, you know, because that's what you want. And it's when that conversation really begins that we have the opportunity then to not necessarily sell. I don't call it selling. You know, I try to basically try to
explain to customers, and I always take this approach, I want you to have a successful procurement. That's different than buy my stuff. And so and that's the constant message that I believe, you know, can be put out there, regardless of whatever you're doing from a digital marketing perspective. Our job is to make sure you are successful. Our job is to make sure
Danny (1:03:09)
Right.
Eric Gregory (1:03:11)
you have a successful procurement. Now, obviously, we would like that to be us, right? But in reality, that's what I'm working towards to make sure you have a successful procurement. And there's just some of these little subtle shifts in terms of emphasis that you can do as it relates to digital marketing, you know, that basically changes the message from self -interest to customer interest. And so I think we need to become significantly more
Danny (1:03:40)
Yeah.
Eric Gregory (1:03:41)
focused on making sure that when we are marketing, that what we're marketing is customer success, not self interest. And people, they are, you know, people are very quick, they can tell within about a nanosecond if you're sincere or not. And, and I go,
You know, and I go, I mean, I, you know, I'm on LinkedIn every day looking at stuff, right? I may not post a lot, like you said, you know, should put something out there every day. But let me tell you what I go through very quickly and I can separate sincere BS, sincere. I mean, it doesn't take a whole lot. And so I think we need to kind of up the quotient.
Danny (1:04:17)
Right?
Eric Gregory (1:04:34)
in terms of that sincerity level in terms of what we're really looking at and again it goes back to the fundamental thesis of just be human you know because that's what you're doing you're interacting with other humans and you got to be sensitive to the needs of those other humans and you've got to be sensitive to they do not always want you want you in selling mode what they want to know is
Danny (1:04:59)
I love that. And I think, you know, there's a couple key takeaways from, from what you just mentioned. First and foremost, anybody that's listening again, you just got a free campaign, free of charge from Eric, the what if campaign. I think that that was beautifully said. and the way that you kind of structured how you would go about doing that and the message, the core message behind it, I think is absolutely brilliant. so run with it, somebody please. And you know, on the other front of it, right.
Eric Gregory (1:05:04)
How can you help me?
because that's what I'm really looking for. I'm looking for help. And I think just a subtle change in approach and messaging in the digital environment can make a huge difference in terms of our success in terms of using that environment to help us promote what we have to offer in terms of solving customer problems and thereby increasing.
Danny (1:05:29)
As far as the way that we're going about and presenting the information, I think again, I keep coming back to the word empathy, right? And you mentioned that you're able to quickly suss out the BS versus the authentic. And I think that that's true for just about the majority 99 .9 % of the people that are out there are pretty clear, right? Like we can read between the lines. I know within the first instance of a phone conversation, maybe even the first five seconds of a phone conversation, are you trying to sell me something or not? Right?
Eric Gregory (1:05:33)
our probability of win on any major opportunity we choose to pursue. It's subtle, but it's important. And I think we need to kind of alter our behavior a little bit in order to be able to take the greatest advantage of digital marketing opportunities.
Danny (1:05:59)
I think all of us are very akin to that where it's, we all have, you know, the, the, the red alerts are going off, right? When we know that we're trying to, someone's trying to sell us something and it's so clear in the digital space. So again, that's where I go back to empathy, understanding that people in general know how to differentiate the BS, the sales, the pure sales, the self -interest posts versus the ones that actually care and have.
Eric Gregory (1:06:00)
in the first and fourth minutes. Anybody that's listening, go ahead.
Danny (1:06:28)
We need to have empathy with that, right? And that I know that, and that needs to be a native of part of what we communicate online because what we need is actually interested in buying. They will do their due diligence to go buy as opposed to us trying to force it down their throat. And I think that that's an excellent piece. And that kind of brings me up to my last two questions as we kind of wrap up the podcast here for you, Eric, which is, you know, we're talking a lot about digital marketing in the government contracting space.
I came into the database back in 2018 and quite frankly, digital marketing was like, govcom was just starting to adopt it, just starting to get into it. And, they're fairly late to the game in a lot of regards, right? And they're probably one of the last industries to really get into this space. I think now.
There's a lot of people understand the power of it, right? They understand, you know, like I mentioned before, 13 % of the global population is on LinkedIn every day, right? And I think that they're starting to understand that like, there's audience out there, there's attention, we need to do something with that. But where do you see the government contracting industry going in the future with digital marketing and with these things around, you know,
the different messages and so on and so forth. I mean, do you see it as coming more and more integral or do you see it as still kind of like a fad that these companies are gonna just kind of fizzle out on?
Eric Gregory (1:08:58)
No, I don't think it's a fad. I mean, I think it's got to become a core competency in terms of everybody who works government business, in terms of how you're going to use digital marketing in order to enhance your probability of win, both in terms of campaign level stuff, in terms of breaking into new customers, as well as in specific opportunity competitions. Your customers are on LinkedIn.
every day. And they're looking and they're searching and they're understanding. And, I mean, you know, I've been doing this for 47 years, right? So, you know, so I've gone through new numerous technological transformations. When I first came into this business, our proposals were produced using offset printing. Okay, so that's a that's a long time ago, right? And so,
You know, so I've been through multiple, you know, multiple transformations in terms of technology here. And, and each time we had a shift or an advancement, you had to become an expert in that advancement pretty quickly. And now we've advanced to, you know, to digital marketing and it's going to be essential that every campaign, every kind of capture that we work is going to have to have.
a well -defined digital marketing strategy that's going to be implemented as part of the process in order to enhance our probability of success. And if you can't define what that is, you know, whether it's a what if campaign or some other kind of campaign in terms of, you know, you know, basically, let me tell you what's going on that's innovative, creative and new from just from your perspective.
You know, you have, you're going to have to get that stuff out there. and you're going to have to then like you do, you're going to have to put something out there to basically invite your customers, you know, to come and have that experience with you on a regular basis in a digital marketing environment, because we have to exercise every channel that we possibly can from a communications perspective in order to be
Danny (1:11:17)
Right.
Eric Gregory (1:11:27)
in order to be effective and in order to really generate interest from potential and current customers. And I don't think a lot of organizations are doing that as effectively as they as they could right now. I mean, I make it I make a joke. You know, people hear me say this all the time, like when I'm teaching some of my classes and stuff, you know, email, you know.
You know, I always make the joke that email is the invention of Satan. And why? You know, and people laugh at me. But when you think about it, it's a very impersonal way to do business. Email sucks in terms of communicating. And yet when you look at digital marketing with a variety of things that you can do, you know, that really makes a difference in terms of your ability to communicate because you can put the video out there of yourself explaining something.
Danny (1:12:23)
Right? No, that's, that's great insight, Eric. And I think, you know, you're, you've hit the nail on the head on a lot of fronts on that. And obviously, you know, I'm a big believer in it and I see the opportunity. I mean, for me in the government contracting space, the story that is the unsung told story that I see as one of the most impressive and most valuable stories that could bridge the gap from folks that are in the industry to folks that are outside of the industry to include the youth that.
Eric Gregory (1:12:23)
you can put an article out there. You can combine the two things, right? And you can have a variety of experiences for any individual or a group of individuals related to the work that you want to do for them. And so we're going to have to learn to take much better advantage of this in the future in terms of GovCon, as far as what we can do in order to, you know, reach current customers, attract new customers.
Danny (1:12:51)
eventually would become, you know, employees and work in this industry, which is if you're in government contracting, if you, whether you own the business or you're working for the business, it doesn't matter if it's small, big or large, whatever the case is, if you're servicing you in your own way are helping shape this country and grow this country. And that message, it just, I haven't seen a single company, not the Northropes of the world.
Eric Gregory (1:12:52)
and position ourselves to be, you know, partners for customer success. And until we learn that skill, I think we're just not going to be able to use digital marketing as powerfully as we could. It's something we do need to change as an industry. And I think it's happening. It's like everything, it evolves. But I think we need to accelerate it.
Danny (1:13:19)
Not the boat of it. I haven't seen that message come full clear centerfold. I'm talking, you know, we see, air force advertisements on, you know, the, for the super bowl, they're investing into that, right? Why aren't we seeing these companies, GDIT, these large companies doing this kind of advertising to say, Hey, do you want to help shape this world? And the best part about that is, is that.
Eric Gregory (1:13:22)
as much as possible given my recent involvement and what I've seen in terms of what we can do, should do, and probably need to do to make this more effective.
Danny (1:13:46)
You don't have to stress the political divide that's inside of this country. It doesn't matter which side of the fence that you land on. The truth is, is that if you can do work for the government, you can help grow the business, right? And bring your ideas to the government, because the government doesn't have all the answers. And I just see that as such a big miss in this space. And one that I'm really hoping that here in the near future, in the next year or two, that somebody steps up to that plate and that challenge.
and really takes on and explains what's going on in this space and how important it is and why the youth should be interested in it. That's something that I see as a potential campaign that would make a huge impact. And that leads me to my final question I'm gonna turn it over for you for closing thoughts. But, you know, in capture, a lot of money and energy and effort is put into shaping, right? Shaping the requirements, shaping the RFP, so on and so forth.
How do you see now with this digital space as you see it growing? And I think you hit the nail on the head on a lot of it are rather recap question, but how do you see that and what we're now calling digital shaping to help mirror those efforts to help drive that part of the process too? I mean, do you see that as a real tangible strategy for these companies to start to adopt and apply?
So, yeah.
Eric Gregory (1:16:25)
sure. I mean, I think, you know, what you know, again, let me go back to, you know, my what if construct, you know, in terms of looking at that in terms of, you know, shaping what if we were able to help you make sure, you know, in terms of, you know, that, you know, that your evaluation criteria and your proposal instructions align perfectly, because very often they don't in a solicitation, right? What if, you know, it's things like that? What if we were able, for example,
to enhance requirements traceability and make it easier for you to evaluate. These are a whole bunch of different ideas that organizations can try and get in front of customers to be able to enhance their experience in terms of making good decisions in terms of who they're going to award to in order to be able to get what they need. And so I think there's plenty of platforms in the digital space to be able to
to do that in terms of campaigns. It's putting suggestions out there, ideas out there, reminding people that there's a whole bunch of things that we can converse about and you should be talking to industry about it because we have some good ideas to make your life easier if we have the conversation together. And I think very often in terms of looking at some of this stuff,
Danny (1:17:50)
Hmm.
Eric Gregory (1:17:53)
It used to be when I first came into this business, there were business people on both sides. Contracting officers were just business people on the government side. That's it. That's all they were. And we all had a common goal in terms of trying to achieve an objective. It was significantly less adversarial than it is today. It wasn't always
Danny (1:18:00)
Mmm.
Eric Gregory (1:18:22)
It wasn't always fun, but we tried to work together much more than we do today. I think in terms of that whole aspect of shaping, we have the opportunity in the digital space to get back more to where we are significantly less adversarial in terms of government and contractors in terms of achieving the common objectives, which is a successful.
Danny (1:18:42)
for that.
Thank you.
Eric Gregory (1:18:51)
procurement and how we can do that. So if you want to shape using the digital space, start posting things into your customers and lead them to here's how we can have successful procurements as opposed to the adversarial relationship that we have now, which is fundamentally nobody trusts anybody. You know, and you hear this
you know, all the time in terms of, you know, I mean, a lot of people don't understand, you know, government contracting at all, including a lot of our folks on the government side, right? You know, basically, you know, the perception is, is that every government contractor is a scumbag out for their own interest. And really, all they want to do is make money. Well, how are you going to change that perception? Okay.
Danny (1:19:41)
Wow, I just love that, Eric. I mean, what a powerful message to leave this show with. I mean, getting back, let's just have successful procurements. It's like, it sounds so simple, but it's so impactful and you're so right. We worry so much about, well, what if we give away our secret sauce?
Eric Gregory (1:19:50)
We're going to change that perception as an industry by having digital space campaigns that kind of emphasize what can we do so that we have success and procurements working together to achieve the result that you need. And I think the time is right for that in terms of companies taking that approach. I think it's right.
Danny (1:20:07)
What do you know? We can't give off any business intelligence. We're in this constant battle of win, win, win, win, win, win us, us, us, us, us, me, me, me, me, me. But, and we, and in that process of fighting each other, you just hit the nail on the head, which is like, what if somebody came to the table and said, we're here to help bring the government successful procurement. Cause the government's just watching us like child's beating each other up. And it's just, I think that that's such a.
Eric Gregory (1:20:18)
for our government counterparts, you know, to start their posts as well in terms of, you know, putting out the same thing. What can we do working together to make sure that we have more successful procurements, fewer protests, and that we are working from a position of trust and confidence and, you know, and a desire to be successful together?
Danny (1:20:36)
powerful message to end this show on Eric. And I want to turn it over to you one last time. Is there anything else that you'd like to add, keynotes or anything that you could offer up as some insights that if someone was listening to this, they could take and apply today, right now, whether it be in the digital marketing space or in the other aspects of the business and business relationships. But do you have anything else that you wanted to add for the show?
Eric Gregory (1:20:48)
And so I think we can really build a much better collaborative environment than we have in the past. And I think it's just going to be a better environment for everybody if we all go down that path in the environment that's been presented to us to be able to communicate more effectively that way.
Danny (1:21:40)
That's it.
Eric Gregory (1:22:33)
I think I just want to go back and I want to emphasize, you know, again, remember you're you're dealing you're dealing with humans, you know, every day. And we've got to make sure that we deal with people with, you know, authenticity, with respect. And we need to be conscious in terms of our inner relationships with the people that we have to work with. It doesn't mean we have to like everybody.
All right, there's lots of people in this world I don't like. There's lots of people in this world that don't like me. You know, I can still work with them. And I think it all revolves around, you know, authenticity. I mean, I can look you straight in the eye and be perfectly comfortable saying, you know, I really don't like you, but I can work with you, you know, and I'm OK with that. And I think, you know, we just need to remember in terms of.
Danny (1:23:24)
I love it. Well, guys, this has been an episode on Be Human, the Just Be Human podcast, the definitive podcast for B2B business owners and leaders who are built their businesses through relationships and are bridging the chasm into the digital marketing space. And this has been with our stuff. Eric Gregory here. I really do appreciate you being on the show and sharing all this information.
Eric Gregory (1:23:29)
you know, dealing with people that as long as we're fundamentally, you know, authentic, and honest, and can dispense trust, you know, we can always work together to get things done. And then I think the only other thing I'd really like to say is that, you know, I have been in this business a long time. I try to be helpful. I do try to give back.
Danny (1:23:50)
I got a ton out of it. I'm sure others will also get a ton out of this as well. So absolutely thank you so much for being on this show. And just as a reminder, we do release episodes every Tuesday at 11 a and Thursday at 11 a This episode will be live actually today, May 2nd at 11 a So keep an eye out for it and be on the lookout for our next show.
Eric Gregory (1:23:59)
You know, I'm easy to find on LinkedIn. if you contact me, I will respond. Danny can attest to that. And so it, and, and, and I will try, you know, and be helpful where I can. And then other than that, the other thing I'd like to impart to everybody in the GovCon business is yes, we're, you know, it's a serious business. Yes, we have a lot of responsibility.
Danny (1:24:16)
as we dive into more topics and interview more folks, just as we dive into human experience to the human relationship and understanding how we can become better on the digital front from what we've learned in that area. So thank you so much again, Eric. I really do appreciate you being on this show and yeah, keep an eye out. It's coming out here soon. And remember, just be humans.
Eric Gregory (1:24:29)
Yes, we work hard. Yes, it can be very stressful. But make sure that we're still trying to have some fun because it is fun. Even when it's stressful, it can be fun. Take the time working with your teams and with your customers to have some fun. Let's keep this human. Let's keep it fun and let's just kind of work together.
to make GovCon more successful in the future than it is today. And that's it.
for them.