James and Lisa teach on the importance of growing in self-awareness (ME) and awareness of each other (WE).
Art of Spousing is for marriages that what to move from being mundane to becoming masterpiece relationships. Hosts James and Lisa Duvall share truths and lessons learned from their 30 years of marriage and over a decade of teaching, coaching, and speaking on marriage.
Episode 9
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[00:00:00] Lisa: I was recently invited to one of the most spectacular bridal showers I have ever attended. The environment was beautiful. Each touch was intentional, but the cutest thing was near the end of the shower. The groom came in to play and Mr. And Mrs. Game, the bride and groom sat back to back. Each had a cowboy boot representing the Mister and a high heel representing the misses.
They were asked a series of questions. Who will do the laundry, they would respond by lifting the boot or the high heel or both. They actually knew a lot about each other, plenty around expectations of who would do what and around individual preferences and personalities. the funniest question, which highlights the sweet couple was the question who has the biggest truck, both Mr. and Mrs. With great declaration shot up the high heel in the. Casey had the bigger truck. It was so hysterical. They are off to an amazing start in knowing each other, but they are just at the very beginning.
[00:01:03] James: Well, Lisa we're kicking off a brand new season of the auto espousing
[00:01:08] Lisa: That's right. We're really excited about the new season and a couple of changes we are making to the show. The biggest change is that we're. Going from new episodes airing every other week on the first and third Mondays to now airing weekly every Monday.
[00:01:23] James: Yeah, we're excited about, so the first and third Mondays will be you and I sharing some thoughts around specific topics to build strength into your art espousing. weeks two or four, we're gonna have guest couples on the show with us to talk about their marriage dynamics, specifically around the tool of the enneagram.
[00:01:39] Lisa : It's gonna be a lot of fun before we jump in today's topic, we wanna thank all of you who are faithfully listening to the podcast. It means so much to us to hear your feedback and comments about the show.
[00:01:50] JamesD: Lisa. I remember when you and I first met. We would go on long walks in the evening and ask all kinds of questions about each other. Just wanting to know all we could about each other. The truth is I was so infatuated by you that you could have told me that you were raised by coyotes in the backwards of Arkansas.
And I would've thought it was the most amazing thing. I would guess that most young romances start that each person knowing a lot of information about each other, just like Casey and hunter, newly Wes can answer many of the Mr.
And Mrs. Game
question. However, moving beyond newly we knowledge and growing in the deep intimacy requires a commitment from each individual to be both vulnerable and curious.
[00:02:31] Lisa (2): Okay. James full disclosure. In front of all of our listeners, I was raised by coyotes sometimes I bet you wonder if I were, I remember our long walks now, reflecting back, they were an instrumental part of our relationship. I was a broken girl, trying to step into a new world of new choices so I could walk in a new direction in life.
Yeah. I had just enough awareness to know I was headed in a, not so good direction, but it's just like how God. Small amount of awareness was just enough to motivate me for something better than I was tracking toward. So this is when I encountered you and your head over heels self, which is really the cutest thing.
I, I love that you were, you thought that way about me in one aspect I could tell you had had a life that had been marked by a call of God on your. At a young age and you lived in that calling, even though I had been raised in church, I had lived a life. According to Lisa, I knew you had to call a ministry on your life and I could not see how I could even redeem this mess.
I had made of myself and marry someone or be with someone like you. Therefore, I gave full disclosure of what I was walking out of all. Blood guts
and nastiness. I wanted you to know how messed up
[00:03:43] JamesD: I
was. I
hope there really wasn't blood guts
and
[00:03:45] Lisa (2): Well, no, but it, my life was pretty messy.
I was pushing you away before you could even get started. I was extremely guarded with my heart and honestly, not fully aware of myself my past or the implications of my family upbringing, my family of origin. We were getting to know each other, but really had only scratched the surface God and his mercy only allowed us to see what was right in front of us.
Not all the nitty gritty, that was way out in front of us. Otherwise we may have been scared a little bit.
[00:04:13] JamesD: of, yeah. So when we got married, we thought we knew everything about each other. So, like you said, Lisa, neither of us were fully self-aware. I think we had been married six years and our oldest daughter, Alex, would have been around four years old. There was something about the way that you witnessed my relationship with Alex, that stir a tremendous sense of loss and things that you didn't experience as a child. It awoke this emotional struggle that we had not experienced up to that point in our marriage.
[00:04:40] Lisa (2): Yeah. I had witnessed you. And then we called her Lexi, as father and daughter holding hands cozy on the couch. And one night I watched you as you tucked her in bed and it hit me. I did not have that relationship. I began to realize the value in fatherhood and the little things that support shaping a girl's heart and view of herself That does not even get into the teenage years and the necessary interactions a girl needs with a healthy male figure in her life to help her set standards and behavior establish the value of being a girl. but the night you tucked Lexi in bed was the season. I shifted in my spirit, in my maturity as a woman and as a believer. Thankfully, I had no animosity toward her, but I began leaning into anything that, to position me, to grow as an individual independent of you, my own personal growth. Right. But knowing now the impact on me pursuing health and awareness around my baggage would actually strengthen our marriage. So me awareness, we awareness as I began to understand myself. I began to see you differently and how your personality and your life experiences began to blend with mine. If I was coming into this awareness about my upbringing and how did it was impacting my life in that moment, then a realization came to me that you were probably living out some of those same things in your family of origin, although very different than mine. Yeah. But was impacting you as a man and us as a married. So I love to say it was a beautiful blending, but it was more like a crazy collision.
[00:06:10] JamesD: It's true. I like what you said there, Lisa, that as you became more aware of yourself, you really became more aware of who I am. And the truth is several years later, I would have my own crisis of identity. And as my blind spots were revealed to me, I became more aware of who you are and how God uniquely put us together to make each other better.
[00:06:30] Lisa (2): I love it. There's no perfect.
Because every marriage is made up of two imperfect people. Yeah. But we do believe that every marriage can experience health and vitality, but it starts with each person making the commitment to work on themselves. Self leadership is required to your marriage becoming a masterpiece in the making. For sure.
[00:06:53] JamesD: Yeah, that's true. I have this equation that I often use when I talk about self leadership, in my coaching and teaching it's basically self-awareness plus self-management equals self leadership. So the more aware you become and manage the strengths and weaknesses, the more self leadership happens in the marriage relationship.
The more you and your spouse become aware of each other and manage your relationship to foster growth, the healthier your
marriage
relationship
will
be.
[00:07:20] Lisa (2): I love it. We wanna talk about some areas that couples can dive into to grow in their, we awareness right after this.
[00:07:26] JamesD: So as we talk about areas where we can grow in our me awareness and we awareness will create two buckets, nature and nurture. So there's a lot of agreement that the way we act or we behave is a combination of nature. What's wired into us at birth. We can't really change it. It's just our DNA who we are and nurture, which are the environments. The experiences , and the events that happen to us.
So let's start with nature and we will give you four areas for discussion and investigation in your relationship as it re as it relates to nature.
So the four areas are, personality, birth order, core motivations,
and love
languages.
[00:09:11] Lisa (2): Okay. So the first is understanding your personality types. And of course, I would be talking about this because I love all of that
stuff. you do,
Discovery around that human personality has been a thing for centuries.
We know of modern psychology assessments like Myers, Briggs, and disk, and many more, but interest in personality goes back to Egyptian, Persian and Greek civilizations when they categorize behavior into elements of water, earth, air, and fire. Later, a Greek philosopher named four temperaments, caloric, Matic Sangu and me. so I'm gonna break them down. Callic is an outgoing task oriented personality.
That's quick to. At the very best they are ambitious, courageous and proud people when not in a good space, they can be vindictive and irritable. Okay. So the Sanu of course this is a reduced version of all of these. Absolutely. Yeah. Sanu is an outgoing people oriented personality that is quick to act.
They are energetic, relational and active people. They have lots of words and tend to be extroverted Matic, a reserved people oriented personality that is slow to. They are loyal people. They tend to live their lives around home and family
melancholic, a reserved task oriented personality that is slow to act.
Also deep thinkers known for their not being silly and they are not prankster. So this is not me. They are subject to dwell on the past and have a hard time letting go of fence. So those are just basic four personalities from way back when, so James, which best describes.
[00:10:45] JamesD: I would say I'm
probably
more
cleric
than anything.
[00:10:48] Lisa (2): I agree. Cuz you do have all of these in you just like, , any other assessments, but one is dominant. And what do you think? I, where I land?
[00:10:54] JamesD: uh, well, because you are the queen of shenanigans,
you would have
to
be Sanu mm-hmm
[00:11:00] Lisa (2): Yes. And I, I do resonate with phlegmatic. I have a really hard.
Phatic. phatic.
[00:11:05] JamesD: FLI
I
[00:11:08] Lisa (2): such a hard time with words I knew, but that one, that one.
So
in
between
the
two
of
[00:11:13] JamesD: you, yeah, people, you're all about people,
orientation and personality,
[00:11:17] Lisa (2): Yes. But I am a little bit slow to act. So that's what confuses me a little bit there. So some people have adverse reactions to be put in a box by any kind of personality assessments. Might I suggest that is a great excuse.
To stay unaware of your impact on how you interact with your spouse. Yeah. That
was
a little bit of a
verbal spanking by aunt Lisa, but it's true. Knowing some of your basic learnings around yourself and your spouse can increase the quality of interactions with your spouse.
[00:11:46] JamesD: Yeah,
it's
true. I mean, just knowing that you're more people oriented, I'm not people oriented.
You're
more
extroverted.
I'm
more introverted.
[00:11:53] Lisa (2): I'm slow to act. You're
fast to
[00:11:55] JamesD: add. Yeah.
So
some of those tensions
that can
arise, if
you're not aware
of those things can
be avoided.
If we just
accept the different personalized
types
that
were
not
all created the
same.
Right?
Correct.
So a second area, related to nature is birth order. And this is kind of a newer learning for me. I've been reading this book by Kevin Laman author of the intimate connection, and he says, it's important to know and understand Your birth order, where you were born in the order of your siblings, because the order in which you were born and the role you played in your family has everything to do with how you perceive reality. So that in turn greatly affects how you view and respond to your spouse. he goes on to say that no one acts out of a void, you learn to be the person you are based on the way your parents and sibling. Interact with you. So here are a few things to know about birth order behavior and maybe something you and your spouse can discuss.
Firstborns were the family, Guinea pig. Your parents had no clue what they were doing. We can relate to that. Sorry, alex.
Yeah.
So they tried all their new parenting techniques on you. You may have had a big spotlight of parental expectations shined on you, which may have caused some perfectionist tendencies that you now exhibit, firstborns can be very well organized. They tend to be strong leaders learning from the responsibility of looking after their sibling. Lamont says that if you're an only born means you're an only child. You're basically a supercharged firstborn. Bless, bless.
So
if you're a middle born child, you most likely went in the opposite direction of your firstborn sibling. And we can see this in our kids. Middle borns are great diplomats. They avoid conflict and they like the pathways of life to be smooth sailing. They tend to be independent and they don't often share their feeling. and may be surprised when others pay attention to them.
And then if you're a last born child in your family, there's a good chance you are everybody's favorite. You may, are you point at your, oh Yeah. You may have been good at manipulating your older siblings into doing your share of the chores, but your siblings may have also used you to get what they wanted from their.
You may be the entertainer and the party waiting to happen. Your life mantras, probably don't worry. Be happy. last borns love to be the center of intention and last borns tend to act impulsively and sometimes think through consequences later. I
would
encourage you to have this conversation with your spouse.
how that relates to you and, where you are in relationship to your siblings. If you're an only child or you're first born, middle born last born, I also encourage you to pick up a copy of Kevin Lamont's book, the
intimate
connection,
and
learn how the different
birth
order
pairings relate
and marriage.
[00:14:43] Lisa (2): I love it. Great insight. Understanding your and your spouse's core motivations is a great awareness opportunity. This goes beyond a list of qualities to describe your personality. I like to say personality assessments. Describe the what core motivations, tell you the why. Behind the, what the engram is a type of tool to help uncover these things. The why behind the what, providing not only descriptions, but explanations behind the descriptions. I thought this was interesting. The Latin root word for personality is mask Chris Herwitz in his book and I'm so sorry if I destroyed his last name.
What I think I did it right. The sacred engram describes engram as a journey of unask. This personality of taking your mask off, allowing us to ask ourself questions to uncover areas we tend to hide or begin to ignore, or our ego takes over. And our true self doesn't come out. This tool came along well after I had been working on myself, but it has given such great language to the growth I had already experienced along my spiritual journey, but it also exposed some new areas to.
Of course, James,
it has allowed me to understand you better, right? So many learnings, but most of all, it allowed me to appreciate your
strength
areas
That serve
our
marriage so well. And I'm sure to not hinder those things, but leverage them in you and really respect the value of them that add to our married life.
[00:16:10] JamesD: Yeah.
And
I would
just
say that
the Ingram
has probably
been the
most
powerful and effective tool in our relationship to understand in communication and conflict, just to understand that the core motivations and that's why we're so excited about what we're adding this season. Of the podcast is these conversations with couples about how this tool Igram has affected their relationship.
So really hope it's gonna be
a helpful
add to the conversation. And if you identify with a, a number and hearing other
couples
talk about
that, it's
gonna
be really
[00:16:42] Lisa (2): iron sharpens iron, and it's really a true, authentic conversation. these aren't experts, we're not really, I'm not an expert.
I like to think I am, but I'm not expert on any ground, but I'm expert on learning about myself and learning about you and helping other people. So it's gonna be a.
[00:16:57] JamesD: Yeah, Yeah, that's gonna be awesome. So then the last area that would be easy and fun to leverage the learning from in the area of nature is to understand how you
and
your spouse
receive and express.
Gary Chapman made famous the love languages, and there are five of them access, service, quality, time, touch, gifts, and words of affirmation. And these have been really powerful for us and actually expressing our love for one another. we've learned that. We don't express the love the way we receive it, but I wanna express love to you, Lisa, and the way that you feel love and express love.
So, uh, Lisa, your love language is acts of service. So anything I can do to make your world easier feels
like
love
to you,
right? Yes.
And my love language is, words of affirmation.
And
so
it's not just compliment me, but when you affirm, that you see me. That you, recognize what I'm
doing.
that
is
what
makes
me
feel loved.
[00:17:51] Lisa (2): Right.
It's not flattery, it's
not made up stuff.
It's like real stuff. Actual
adjectives.
[00:17:57] JamesD: Yeah.
[00:17:57] Lisa (2): That have
been thought about not just throwing
out
[00:18:00] JamesD: yeah, I'm seen, and I'm known by you, which
is really
powerful.
So
again,
a really
quick
tool
mm-hmm but a great discussion starter with you and your spouse to talk about, like, how do you feel loved
and
what
can
I.
To help
you,
feel
that from me.
[00:18:15] Lisa (2): Yeah. Well, and it's a natural tendency that if I start doing things for you, access service, you can probably see I'm trying to love on you. Mm-hmm , which is really sweet because it's the way I'm loved, but truly. even though it is kind and making an effort, I really need to flip it, and look for ways to affirm you.
And so we've made it a practice to grow in expressing love to one another. According to our love languages, always
looking
to level up, never staying the same with the same tactical expressions, like that's right. You're a great dad. Well you are, but there's more, how, why are you a great dad? Why are you a great leader?
Why are you a great husband, actually adding great words around it. Let's jump into the second bucket of awareness and it's related to how you and your spouse were nurtured, not the nature part, but the nurture part during your developmental years.
Right? If nature is how you were wired, nurture is about the experiences,
environments and
events that shaped
you.
[00:19:11] JamesD: environment. That's
right. So family of origin is the most obvious place to start again, going back to Lisa and myself. I knew that Lisa did not grow up with a father in the home, but I was unaware of all the dynamics that went with that in the same way.
Lisa knew my family
that
had
no
clue
of
the.
dynamics or the
dysfunction
in my family.
That's right.
So if you aren't really aware of each other's origin story, take time to dig into it and see what ahas come from your discovery. So I'm gonna put a list of questions in the show notes that you can use as discussion stars
for
this, but a
few examples
of
those
things are like,
what
was your parents'
marriage?
Like, how would
your
parents resolve
conflicts
or differences
when you're growing up? How did
they
fight?
How
did
they make.
[00:20:01] Lisa (2): Right.
As you ask those questions, James, I lack the ability to even answer them, which is a significant learning in of itself. Right? So I want to encourage any listeners, that had a huge void of examples of marriage and marriage relationship to recognize the impact of that lack like myself.
James, you mentioned events that happened to us as a part of nurture. We refer to these as significant inflection points. They change the trajectory of our. For me that was finding out that the man who I thought was my dad at the age of 11, actually wasn't my dad
for
others,
it
could
be a significant trauma, a death of a key individual in a life as a child, physical, emotional sexual abuse. There's a lot of different traumas that can impact
us. Unresolved pain in our lives has a tremendous influence over our perception of ourselves and perception around interactions with our spouse.
As we learn to deal and process the things that have happened, experiences events in our life, a learning I've come to understand. Mostly as I reflect back on this on my 20
year journey Is every step is significant. That's right. Small, smart choices over time is not just for physical productivity at work, but it is emotional healing, productivity awareness, and acknowledging
the
pain is actually a huge step.
Even if you haven't begun working on it. So way back when I was in my late twenties, when I acknowledged, when I saw Alex and I realized.
That actually
was
a step in movement toward healing.
[00:21:31] JamesD: that's good. Yeah. It's so easy for people to get stuck in those traumatic places, but being proactive and talking through it and getting the help you need. If it's counseling or. pastoral support or whatever is
so
important
to
move forward. And so it doesn't allow you and your
relationship
to stay stuck.
Well, there's so much more that
we
could
say around this idea of me
and
we awareness. but here's
the
challenge.
Take
a
step towards discovery. You may need to do some self discovery first. So if you don't know what your personality makeup is, take an assessment or two maybe use Myers, Briggs, or disk.
They're two really
common.
Personality
assessments. If you don't know what
motivates you
take
Ingram assessment,
it
can
enlighten you on your core motives.
[00:22:15] Lisa (2): I just wanna add James. if you're listening and you don't wanna do that, lean in and do it learn about each other mm-hmm but spouse, if they don't wanna do it, don't hog tie 'em.
That means don't force them. don't force them, but I just go, you know, if someone's wanting to
learn,
if you're wanting to learn, I wanna lean in and learn with you. That's right. And so I don't wanna resist that and resisting that because you don't like assess. Or diving into personality would really shut down a lot of learning that could be very fruitful for you.
[00:22:42] JamesD: right.
And again, marriage is about each individual taking responsibility for themselves and, growing.
All
that said, if either husband or wife doesn't want to do the work of
discovery,
you
can
still
do
the
discovery
yourself
and
grow
and,
make
a change in your life. So Just
[00:22:57] Lisa (2): don't
be
big
pants about it.
[00:22:59] JamesD: That's right. that's right.
So
then after you
do that, have some meaningful conversations
with
your
spouse
and
share your learnings,
See what they see in you. Talk with your spouse about your origin story. If there are her
from your past,
lean in that vulnerability
and
share
them
with
your
husband
and wife. We
can
guarantee
that
your level
of
intimacy
will
increase
[00:23:19] Lisa (2): For sure. So friends, thank you for listening. If you found this episode helpful, please let your friends know by sharing it with them. You can also help other people find the podcast by rating the podcast and leaving us a review. We would love to hear your thoughts and answer questions you have about what we've shared today.
You can email us@helloatartistespousing.com. or direct message us on Instagram at artist espousing. Your feedback is so helpful. We
value
your insight and perspective.
It helps us know how to continually offer content that will help you and your marriage.
[00:23:50] JamesD: So next week we have our good friends, Greg and Julie Gorman, the founders of Mary for a purpose on the show with us.
So
have
a
great week
and
we
will
see
you
next
time
on
the artist
espousing podcast
until
then. Bye bye.