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Authentic, Authoritative, Unapologetic ServiceNow commentary by Cory "CJ" Wesley and Robert "The Duke" Fedoruk
CJ: Boom.
Now we're recording.
All right.
Duke: I would hate for
that to happen again.
CJ: Again.
Duke: All right.
We are live with another
episode of CJ and the Duke.
Corey, what are we talking about today?
CJ: Man, duke, today we got a
special guest with us, Philip Elliot.
Philip is a HR guru.
It's one of my good friends.
I met him a long time ago.
We were working on an, , an HR project.
, it made him decide that he wanted
to do more of it and made me
decide to not do any more of it.
Um, and so here we are.
Phil: Hey.
Hey.
Duke: Isn't that kind of funny
how it works out over time?
Instead of finding skills, you find people
CJ: Yes.
Phil: Yes.
Duke: and you're like, nah, nah,
it's not for me, but I know a guy
CJ: Yeah.
I got a guy for that.
Duke: Yeah.
Alright, so Philip's our guy, our HR guy.
, so Philip, why don't you
tell us how you got there?
, Phil: first it's an honor to be here, to
just to, you know, connect with you all.
Um, I've known cj, I don't
know, for like six years or so.
CJ: Yeah, it's been a minute,
Phil: Yeah, it has been.
You kind of part of my ServiceNow journey.
But to answer your question, so my wife
and I, we lived in Cambodia, overseas in
Asia, , and we came back and I was trying
to figure out a job, what I'm going to do.
, and then I got connected to a recruiter
who said, okay, , there's a utility
company that needs somebody who has.
Some sort of, , development
skills, , because they had been
looking for ServiceNow people.
You know, this was back in the Fuji
days, there wasn't that many ServiceNow
developers out there, , and trying
to find somebody and they couldn't
find anyone with ServiceNow skills.
So they were just like, Hey, anyone
who has some sort of development skill
and can actually communicate, , well.
So I went in to interview, just talked
about some web application, , projects
that I worked on using my SQ l and,
started joking , in the interview, , and
they were like, okay, we're gonna
bring you on and teach you about
ServiceNow, whatever that thing is.
. And I need you to , get up to
speed on , what ServiceNow is.
And so that night after, hearing
that I got hired, , I just spent
like a couple hours trying to figure
out, okay, what is ServiceNow?
How do I actually, what is this thing?
Because I, I'm thinking, Hey,
I gotta come in and actually
do some work once I get there.
Duke: Yeah.
Why not learn how to swim on the deep end?
CJ: Right.
Just drop right on in there.
Man.
I love stories like this
Phil: Yeah.
Oh my goodness.
Yeah, I mean, it's just like, fast
forward in terms of how I got into hr.
, as CJ mentioned, we were on
this crazy project where,
, scope creep out the wazoo.
CJ was in charge of ITSM and hr.
You know, the work on there.
And I came around and I was just, I had
a lot of different questions, , about
what we're doing and what's going on.
And eventually I just took over the HR
side of it because there was so much stuff
going on with, , the ITSM and I had never
done hr, so it was another sink or swim.
, and.
We were dealing with just a, a real
aggressive client who we, our standup
meetings, which we were getting yelled at
constantly in terms of, okay, we got this,
but it was just trial by fire.
, and then just , jumping into what HR
was, and I just started enjoying it.
, because just there's a people aspect
to hr, that a lot of developers
don't really think about much.
, and so.
That's how I just got into hr,
and that's a lot of what I've been
doing for the last, well, pretty
much for the last six years.
, Duke: wow.
Let me get this straight.
So, so it was your first rodeo on
ServiceNow and also your first rodeo on HR
Phil: Yeah, so prior, yeah.
Well
it's just, yeah, it's crazy.
Yes, it, it was definitely crazy.
But I like getting in there and
actually trying to understand things.
So I was constantly asking questions
and like, okay, , so what's the
next story I need to work on?
Or what does, how does
this connect to this?
, and so what are we doing here?
And since I was asking so many
questions, they were like, well, I just
need you to take over this, you know,
CJ: That it's always the curse, ain't it?
Phil: yeah.
CJ: oh, oh, you, you care about this.
You own this.
Phil: Hey, this is yours.
I was like, dang it.
Needless to say, I didn't get much
rest during that whole project.
It was, ugh, crazy.
CJ: And you forgot to mention
the part where we had leadership
resigning every other week
Phil: dude, yo.
It was like , we'd get a , new pm.
He'd be excited like,
yeah, we're gonna fix this.
We're gonna do this like a month later.
Okay, I'm done.
CJ: and like I, this, this
project was literally chasing
people out of the company.
Phil: yes it was.
But at, you know what?
At the end I actually became friends
with, , the PM on the other side.
CJ: Oh, nice.
Phil: Yeah, we actually did,
probably, probably, 'cause I think
she thought I was very young and so
she felt for me, she was like, okay,
you're probably young, new to this.
It's not your fault, you know?
CJ: Hey, look, , anytime you can
actually get through , a horrible
project like that, get it actually
delivered, and then actually still have
friends on the other side of the table.
Man, that is a success.
So kudos to you for that.
I bailed.
Phil: Hey, you were smart.
I think I just like getting punished.
That's what it.
Duke: So what was the hard part about it?
was it people hard or technology hard?
Phil: When I say technology hard,
it's more in terms of being new to
hr because I had done ITSM work like
catalog work, request request items,
and I was new to HR case management
, and like , how HR functions and the
actual architecture of what HR is.
So.
I was brand new to that.
And, and you know, in ServiceNow you can
do anything, , in a, in a, in essence.
, and so I still had that kind of
mindset and so I was like doing a lot
of scripting over coding things and
not realizing I could just configure.
So that's from a technical perspective.
And then there was a people aspect of
it where, I was in a position where.
They thought I knew more than I did.
So that's, that's one.
And because of that, the other side
was very aggressive in terms of
asking a lot of questions of me.
And so, in terms of just their
requirements of , how do HR task work?
You, I wanna do, I wanna do it
this way, I, I want to consider.
many HR services for all these things
that should just simply be tasked.
Um, and I was just
saying, okay, let's do it.
, but not really understanding that it's
because I didn't understand, because
I didn't really understand them.
I couldn't explain it in a way
that they could understand.
And then also,
.
From the resourcing perspective,
we didn't have enough developers.
, because I think there, I don't know
how many, there wasn't a lot of HR
developers out there, per se, who
actually had the certification for this.
And so we just didn't have people were
ramped up enough to actually do it.
, so I'm learning.
The other two guys I had
with me are learning.
, we're supposed to be the experts
in this stuff, and so , the
company we're working for.
They're looking at us
like, you don't know this.
You're the expert.
Why don't you know this?
You know?
, so it was just a little bit of both.
CJ: Man, this is like a candid behind
Duke: Very canid.
I'm like,
CJ: right?
Duke: you how much I appreciate that.
, But it's, it's important, right?
Because everybody's got a story like
Phil: Yeah, yeah.
CJ: Right.
And I don't think people, , understand
how often something like this can happen.
I.
Where you find yourself as the expert,
but you don't consider yourself an expert.
Right.
And , the, the folks you're working
for are like, just make it work, right?
, we gotta deliver this thing for
the client and it's gotta work.
And you just wanna do the best job
you can for both parties, right?
But , it does drop a lot of stress, on the
folks who are charged then to implement.
Phil: Yeah, exactly, because, , just
consider , the pace at which you
have to ramp up for this stuff.
, especially if it's an, application
that you , hadn't had a lot of
experience with, , you don't have to,
to waste, . And so , I spent a lot of
time on the docs trying to understand
things, , like asking other devs
questions in terms of not even so much,
like, okay, how do you deal with hr?
How do you develop this?
But in terms of like, how do I deal
with the client's, , requirements,
how do I help them to understand,
, best practice of ServiceNow, , that
we, we just can't do that.
I.
CJ: We shouldn't, right?
Phil: It's gonna affect your
performance and this is not gonna
be what you want in the end.
. And so it was a great project.
I, I will say, like I learned a lot.
I learned that , in meetings,
you have to come confident.
You have to be confident regardless
of if you know it or not.
, because the client is relying on
you , to fulfill what their needs.
They're looking at you as the
expert and the expert needs to
have that like level of confidence.
, and even if you don't know, it's like
a sense of, okay, hey, I, I don't
know, but let me get back with you.
I'm gonna get the answer for you.
'cause that's what they expect from you.
.
CJ: Man, that is, that's a
jewel right there, right?
That confidence , that you have to
hold in front of the customer, like
they are expecting you to know.
And so you have to appear to know,
and even when you don't know, like you
have to be confident in the way that
you present that lack of knowledge to.
Like that is not a
complete lack of knowledge.
It is a very targeted, pointed
lack of knowledge around
this one particular thing.
But I know how to figure that out for you.
Right.
You know, just to wrap up the segment
, on that previous project, what I
heard from you, , and what I've, know
as having experienced these things
in the past is, is that these things
can be, make or break for a career.
Like this could be the thing that
makes you decide, I am never, ever,
I'm out of, of this, of this ecosystem.
Right?
Like, I'm done.
If this is how it rose, no, , I
don't wanna deal with this.
Or it could be one where you make it
to the end, the thing gets delivered
successful, you know, everybody is
tired and exhausted, but they still
celebrate The cake comes through, right?
And,
Phil: Yeah.
CJ: the, and the next thing you know,
like you're now the go-to guy for hr.
And obviously in your
case it became the latter.
But, I wonder how many folks have a story
where, it didn't quite end up like this.
, where they didn't become
like Philip, the HR guy.
And, they just were like, man, , I
gotta take a step back from this.
, this is crazy.
Anyway, I, my point, there is just,
, there's a lot of folks who are gonna
listen to this, who are gonna find
themselves in this sort of position
at some point in their careers.
? I think the lesson that I'm
learning here is that , you
just really gotta push through.
, if you want this right, if you want
this to be your career, if you want
to excel in it, push through, figure
out how you can be successful.
Put in the time, put in the effort.
Right, because , , you said
before you spent a lot of
time down on the docs, right.
You know, the docs dot Service now
you were getting all the information
and, the clients were pre presenting
you with stuff you didn't know.
And where do you go?
You go and figure it out.
I'm sure not all of that
happened, , in the nine to
five , that you were put in, right?
Phil: Yeah.
No, not at all.
CJ: You know, but you
wanted that success, right?
Like, you wanted this to be
successful and you wanted that growth
that was gonna come out of that.
And I wanted to highlight that,
for our listeners out there, , who
might find themselves in a
situation that's challenging, right?
, push through it, ? If you get
to the other side of it, man,
are you gonna be straight?
Phil: Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Yes,
Duke: Speaking of, the other
side of it, how long did it take?
..., I have a somewhat similar
story in the SPM realm.
, but I had, , close to a decade
of ServiceNow experience.
I.
Before somebody asked me, Hey, do
SPM we know you don't know how.
, so I could talk a lot about the other
aspects of the platform and I had
a sense of, I already knew how to
figure things out on the platform.
So how long did it take before you went
from, holy cow, I gotta figure this out.
'cause tomorrow versus like, walking
on with that swagger that comes
from, yeah, , I know this stuff now.
How long do you think that took?
Phil: It may have taken me like a
few months to really get my sea legs
in because you, as you're learning
things, you start to feel , for lack
of better words, , confident at that
specific niche that you're working in.
, for example, we're talking about hr,
like once I really understood that, like
HR services and how those are configured.
I felt really confident
I understand HR services.
And then, as I was moving forward
and within this project and other
projects, I started to understand,
, how are we gonna secure these?
'cause requests are coming
in we want you to secure it.
How does it work for hr?
, and so.
That was, I can't say another month
of figuring that out, but maybe a
couple weeks of understanding that.
So, , it took me a couple months to
really just fully, get my sea legs.
But as I was doing it, it's,
it's kind of like, I wanted
to run a marathon for example.
, and the first mile, it feels
terrible because your body
really isn't ready for it.
, but as you get into it, you get
into the groove and you start to
understand it a little bit more.
, and it's still hard, but , you
feel like , you're making progress.
So it took me a couple months to
really fully get , my sea legs,
but . Even before then, I was like,
oh, you know, I'm understanding this.
Okay, I understand that.
, and I was actually making real good
progress to where, , it propelled
me to continue to wanna go, even
though I wasn't, I knew I wasn't
like there all the way in a sense.
CJ: So it's the growth, right?
It's the growth that keeps you going.
Phil: Yeah.
, CJ: I can definitely see that if you don't
feel like you're, , progressing, then,
, you start to lose confidence, right?
You start to feel bad, right?
Nobody wants to feel bad.
Yeah.
Nice.
So tell us about hr.
So I'll tell you like I noted out of that
project for different reasons, right?
I didn't leave, leave.
, there was a reason behind it.
we're not disclosing to people,
but the, , they were callous.
I had a family situation going on.
, it was an emergency situation and
they were calling me while I was
at the hospital, , with someone.
, and when I explained the situation
to them, they were callous
in their, , treatment of it.
And so I quit at the hospital
while I was on the phone with them.
And, I know not everyone has
that privilege, but I did.
But I would encourage everyone to
work to try to get that privilege.
, because there's family is everything,
and you should never let anyone,
, come between you and your family,
especially when it's an emergency
situation like I was experiencing.
So that's why I left the project, , but
I also left HR behind at the same
time, but not, not for that reason,
just because I didn't really like it.
Um, so, so tell us, Philip,
tell us why you like it.
Phil: For me, the central thing about HR
is the services is in terms of like, what
service is this human resource department
actually supplying to their employees.
, and everything just builds on top of that.
, in terms of.
What aspect of this HR department
is providing this service?
, in HR we have a thing called COEs,
or Center of Excellences, which
are all this, the HR tables, like
there's a payroll talent management,
workforce admin , and a couple others.
, and , when we're developing for
HR and getting requirements, we're
asking the HR teams, , or even
people operations teams 'cause.
Different companies call their department
differently , and look at it differently.
And I can explain that a little later.
, but , we're considering what
services are we providing?
, who are the entities within HR that's
providing that service, and what are the
inputs for them to fulfill that service?
So when I say inputs, I'm thinking
what are , the routes at which this
service is going to be requested,
whether it's through record producers
or is it through some sort of inbound
email action, or is it just through a
call or what have you, , to actually
provide that service to fulfill.
, and then looking at how is it secured?
Who, what group is actually.
Going to be fulfilling this.
And we think about assignment groups.
, the thing I like about HR
is that it's about people.
, and I enjoy work dealing with people.
, so , let's say I'm a parent and
I need to understand my benefits.
I, how am I gonna engage
with the HR department?
Uh.
Through, you know, through the HR system.
, and so when I think about that, I'm
like, okay, when we're designing , the
form for you , to fill out, does
it make, will it make sense to you?
, and I think that's one of the biggest
difference between, in my head, between it
SM and HR is that, , it, you're thinking
of IT systems, you're thinking about the
network and such like that, not so much.
People related.
I mean, obviously there's people
in IT involved, but not , as
people centric as HR is.
And so when I think like what
is hr, it's central to that.
Like what services are we providing?
Who are we providing to these
services to and who are , the
service providers, , for that?
CJ: So it all starts with the
people when it comes down to hr
Phil: Yeah.
, CJ: so, first of all,
great explanation, right?
I've never heard it broken down like
that and never thought about it that way.
, kudos, . For being a developer who
actually likes to talk to people.
I mean, it's like three of us on this
call and I, we might be, most of us.
Duke: You've done stuff on the ITSM side
Phil: Yeah.
Yeah.
Duke: What's most surprising
about the transition to hr?
From ITSM?
, what would surprise most ITSM folks
about what goes on in the HR system?
, Phil: when we think of ITSM, we think
about the different, , records in ITSM.
We think about, there's an incident there.
There's the change record.
There's the problem record and such.
And, , we think about it in a
sense of, oh, an incident is
an incident is an incident.
Whether it's a major incident,
whether it's a small incident, a
problem is a problem is a problem.
You know, it.
Several incidents that create a problem.
But in hr, a case isn't, a case isn't
case, like , each case is related
to its service, , that the service
offering that is connected to.
, and I think that's what surprises
people from ITSM coming into HR is
that it's not every record is the same.
, obviously from a ServiceNow
developer's perspective, a record is
a record is a record in ServiceNow,
Duke: Yeah.
Yeah.
Phil: you know, um.
Duke: you saying they're
like task extensions?
Phil: Yeah, so they're all
extended from task in general.
In terms of , HR case versus an ITSM
incident request or requested item.
, or lemme take that back in
terms of requested item.
But anyway you're dealing
with case management.
And all the workflows , that
come off of that particular case.
, and the flows that come off of how this
is fulfilled, , in terms of different
tasks or, other things involved in that.
, versus thinking about it in terms of,
I have , a break fix issue and I'm
creating the incident form that's going
to, , highlight what that break fix
is, or, what's the priority on that.
, in terms of, . Who it was opened for or
who requested it, I should say like in
hr you're thinking who opened this and
who's the subject of this actual case?
, and how to think about that
is , the subject is what the ca
who the per the case is about.
So for example, let's say I'm a manager
and I wanna pro promote my employee.
So I put in a case for promotion.
So I am the open for, and
my employee's the subject.
And however, I may not want my employee
to know that there's a case for him that
he's gonna be promoted, it's a surprise.
, and so in the, in case management, we
could separate out or not allow the
subject person to actually read that case
or see those cases that are about him.
Subject, you know, terminations you.
CJ: Yeah.
, Duke: I remember the good old
days where nobody actually
like, thought that through,
and it was all of a sudden like, oh man,
I probably shouldn't say this, but I
worked for a place where a C-suite person.
Found their own termination record before
they were Yeah, yeah, that's exactly it.
Like, I can't scream out loud.
I'm screaming inside.
CJ: Oh wow.
Phil: Wow.
That's crazy.
Duke: So I love that, that they make
that distinction right off the gate.
There's
Phil: Yeah.
, Duke: and it took a while for the
platform to get there, I would say.
But it's this idea that there is
the person, there's like a, there's
different types of customers, right?
There's the person who's who
I'm interacting with, but then
there's the person, this is about.
Phil: Yeah.
And an amazing thing about what
ServiceNow has done with hr.
'cause obviously from a technical
perspective, they went from just a global
application to a more scoped application.
, now there were, they started to
consider these features that we're
talking about in terms of the open
force subject person in terms of the
security around the case who, , security,
not so much even security, if the.
Open for subject person, but
also the security of which
groups have access to this case.
, in terms of, securities and such.
And, and in one sense, they were
thinking about human resources, which
is about hiring, , onboarding, like
payroll, like termination, those things.
But then they shifted into more of a
people operations thought process, which
is more about the people and the culture.
It's about, , skill
acquisition, , and goal settings.
And they do that through a thing
they have called employee journeys,
, where you can create tasks and.
A journey for your different employees
to, to gain specific skills, and such
and whatever the employee's goals are.
, so they're like evolving , as
they're going through this and
seeing the market out there and
what the market is looking for.
, it's quite amazing their
thinking on , this stuff.
Duke: Tell me more about this.
Is this like a way to modernize your
workforce as you go or something?
Or,
Phil: Yeah, it's a philosophical
look at your, organization.
, and it's more in terms of understanding
that an organization is not just about,
. Making sure the workers are there to do
the work, but it's really taking care of
the workers , and making sure that the
workers , feel taken care of, , get a
sense , of loyalty towards the company.
And it's a company considering,
alright, how do we.
Help our employees to reach
whatever their career goal is.
, so it's now it's beyond
just, , do we have employees who
are doing the work to get it out?
Now it's thinking about , how
my employees growing.
, are my employees , growing in a way that
want, I have these skills that I need do.
Um.
Like creating an avenue so that my
employees can reach the skills they need
to meet continuing demands out there in.
And so, , ServiceNow started to consider
that's where, , HR departments are
going into, , and are starting to call
themselves people, operation departments,
, and having a different philosophical
look at , their organization and how,
, these departments run , , and work.
And so, , ServiceNow is just capitalizing
that and , giving organizations
that , the tools to do that.
CJ: What is interesting to me about
that is the evolution of this, right?
And I think that evolution of looking
at , the folks who are working for a
company as more than just the hours
that they put in, but also, , as more
holistic individuals who have career
goals and pathways and objectives.
And really working on that to so
that they can fill some additional
fulfillment , out of their, , career
and association with the company,
I think is really pretty awesome.
And having it all.
Wrapped up and into one segment of
the platform and all on one platform,
I feel like is probably something
that is, um, well, I don't know.
I'm not an HR guy, but it
definitely feels desirable.
, and I don't know, , is that revolutionary,
is that like something that ServiceNow
is uniquely, , enabling or is it,
, just , where the market's going , and
ServiceNow say, well, we need to
do this and then we're gonna do it
better because , we're who we are.
Phil: Yeah.
And I think , they're really seeing
that's where the market is going.
, because , in a lot of these HR conferences
that, and I'm not talking about ServiceNow
HR conferences, but just HR conferences,
that's what they're talking about.
, they're talking about skill acquisition.
They're talking about their, these,
their employees , and, , and the
culture of the company and such.
, because they understand that if
you have good company culture,
your company's gonna do great.
If your employees are enjoying their
work, they're going to, they're.
They're gonna do well.
, and so like, how do we best do that
and how do we best position ourselves
to, , to do that for our employees?
, and ServiceNow is like
capitalizing on that.
, and you know, it's, and you see
it through just different new
ServiceNow offerings through hr.
I mean, this one isn't brand new,
but there's , employee document
management, which is basically
ServiceNow is becoming more of a
electronic, , file cabinet, so to speak.
To where when employees email or add
documents into ServiceNow, there's
now a filing system where I can say,
okay, here's all my employee documents.
And easy be able to access
those, that information and add
a level of security to that.
.
CJ: Nice.
Phil: Yeah.
Yeah.
Sorry.
I'm saying, and again, and, um,
considering like, what's the legality of
how long I have to hold this document?
Uh,
CJ: that one's important.
I know that one from, from ITSM writing
in legal holes, and sometimes, there's
a thing with an employee and it's
like, ooh, right, but you gotta right.
Man, you, you know, Philip.
, what strikes me about this conversation
is how much, you know, not just
about the technical aspects of HR
as it exists in ServiceNow, but
also about HR processes as a whole.
I.
Like how HR works in general as it
would be implemented in a number of
different tools or even absent a tool.
Right.
Do you find that is a significant
benefit for you as you implement
HR on the ServiceNow platform?
Phil: Yeah, I do.
Because the thing is when we're getting
requirements, we have to first think,
, agnostically in terms of system agnostic,
because if you go straight into.
You know, let's just say you get
requirements where the person says,
oh, I need this task, this, I'm doing
this task, this task, and this task.
Then you're thinking, oh, if you're
thinking just ServiceNow, you're like,
alright, I need to create a task for this.
Let's create a task for get
employee documents or create
a task for, , verify this and.
, and you're not thinking in
terms of what the actual real
process is that is happening.
, 'cause you don't want to
take that and just translate
it directly into ServiceNow.
And now you're creating this
cumbersome flow, , that the end
users won't even like using.
. , it's really like understanding
where the client is coming
from, from an HR perspective.
Like what are they trying to do?
Who are the people
they're trying to serve?
, and so understanding that how can I make
this easy for them, , to where you're
actually getting good requirements, not,
, this kind of mess that, that can happen
that I've seen happen, , in the past.
CJ: Yeah.
No, I, that's a good, really good point.
It's amazing , how often, and I
think this probably stretches
beyond the HR realm, right?
, it's just amazing how often we are as the
tool builders go into situations and we're
asked, Hey, build a tool for this process.
But we may or may not, , have a whole lot
of knowledge about that actual process.
, but the client looks at
you as an expert, right?
And while you might be a
ServiceNow expert, they also.
Feel that you are a expert on
the process that they're trying
to get built in the ServiceNow,
which may or may not be the truth.
, it is those situations, I think when
you're able to combine both that process
knowledge with the tool knowledge right.
Then where, customer success really
does shine through and I think that's
important for folks to hear, right?
Because it takes some time to
become an expert, but , it doesn't
take time to , seek out knowledge.
And so, if you're asked to implement
incident management, , there's , a ton
of information out there that you can
read up on about successful incident
management processes and how they work
and , things that have been tried.
Things that I.
Don't work very well, things that work
very well in a number of different places.
Right.
And at least you have now a grounded
level of knowledge that you can
come in these conversations with
and, help facilitate them through.
And the more then, and then the more that
of these engagements that you do, , the
more you obviously grow your expertise.
Phil: Yeah.
Yeah, I definitely agree, especially if
we wanna call ourselves architects for
example, , it's good to understand the
underlying business process, , to really
architect a, successful solution , for
the client, , that you're working on.
I've had my HR certification for a long
time and I've met a lot of people who
have HR cert, well, a number of people
who've had HR certifications, and the
only thing that I would say , is missing
is just really understanding that , the
kind of people you're working with in
hr, HR people are different from it.
People like it.
Duke: I, oh, preach brother.
Preach.
I just, because , that goes
for all of the non ITSM apps.
Like, when I was doing SPMA lot, , the
thing that , they told me they liked
about me was we get these other
resources to do SPM, they keep on
talking about this thing called CMDB
and they keep on wanting to know about
like escalation and prioritization.
And we're like, man, like I care about
dollars and time, you know, that,
that's what keeps me, or, or risk,
like how do I quantify my risk and.
It, it, there really is a different
set of things that keep people up at
night and just knowing that alone,
just , tell me what's a nightmare
scenario for You can teach you a ton
about how you do the implementation.
I.
CJ: Yes.
Phil: Oh yeah.
Yeah.
It is.
I mean, even think about that example
you talked about earlier, the CEO who
found out that he's getting fired.
, I've seen a situation where the
employee , found out that they had a,
, employee relations case against them.
You know, it's like a nightmare scenario.
Like, oh my, you know, especially if it's
your employee and something against them.
But yeah, but once you get down to
that and , you figure out, okay,
this is the driving force behind this
client and what they're working on.
You're better in a sense, like once you
understand like their driving force,
, because you can lead them , to a, like
a real successful, , implementation.
, when you understand that.
CJ: Right.
, because then you'd know what
they're trying to get out of it.
And so you build the system in a way
that helps unlock that outcome for them.
, I just think that's really
important , for folks to know, right?
It's, that it's not incident management,
is incident management for client a.
It's not, change management.
It is change management
for multinational client C.
Right?
These processes, it
don't, exist in a vacuum.
You can't just bust open the
ITIL book and then drop the
generic process in there, right?
, that's your start about how generally
these things kind of work and flow.
But the next thing is like you and Rob
were , just talking about, ? It's about
what keeps folks up at night, right?
And why are, why am I even here?
Like, what prompted you to make this
call to ServiceNow, which prompted me the
next call to me, you know what I mean?
And, and so right.
Knowing that helps you really, get
the best out of, , the requirements,
gathering what your, with your client,
and also put the best into the platform
so that everybody's successful.
Love it.
Good stuff.
Duke: Gosh, almost, , three,
seven minutes of record.
Phil, are you independent?
Phil: Yeah, so right now I am independent.
, and so I'm under the name Cloud,
CTW, , that's my organization.
One of the biggest things , I'm trying
to do is get, just get out the knowledge
about what HR is and how to, at least
the configuration of hr because I know
what it is when you're a new developer.
, and so I've put out a number of
YouTube videos, not long form videos.
They're very short form because we
only have but so much time to learn
these things , and, , I'm doing
on YouTube, slash at Cloud ctw.
, and then each week, every Friday,
I put out a new video on hr.
Duke: All right.
We were gonna have those links for
you in the description below, as well
as an email how you can reach Phil.
, Phil, any last wisdom for our audience?
I.
Phil: Yeah, I think anyone
who's willing to learn HR does.
HR is amazing.
I've pretty much made a career out
of it and I , don't think you can't
do this without a, certification.
I would say obviously go get your
certification, , but look for
opportunities within the HR space.
If I can do it, anyone can.
CJ: I don't know about
that, but we'll see.
Oh no, and that's just
my faith in you, man.
I've seen you work.
It takes a while to get to
your level of expertise.
Kudos for that.
Why you make sure we put that out there.
And, , Philip, it's great
having you on the show.
It's been a great conversation.
, I learned so much about hr, , and
I'm still sending everybody to you.
Duke: All right folks.
If you wanna get in touch with Phil, if
you wanna check out his LinkedIn, give
him an email or check out his YouTube.
, we'll have a links to
the description below.
Everybody take a shot
CJ: That's right.
Duke: on the.