Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Today's guest is from Flipdish, Head of Product, Chris Dermody. From Startup to its recent Unicorn status, Chris was there to see it all and it's a really interesting conversation about the shifting skill changes.
Welcome to Startups with Niall Maher.
This show is to going give you tips, strategies and advice to grow your business and hopefully entertain you along the way.
Niall will introduce experts and resources that he is always learning from.
It’s all about sharing that experience with YOU.
Niall has worked in nearly every corner of technology businesses; Lead Developer, Software Architect, Product Manager, CTO and now happily a Founder.
You’ll also get to hear live calls with special guests (such as founders, authors and experts).
Thanks for listening and let’s grow together.
Niall: Unicorns in business are rare.
And even rare here in Ireland because
today's guest is from Flipdish,
Ireland, fifth, homegrown unicorn.
And they only became a
unicorn back in January.
So it's very recent.
The guest today is head of product,
Chris Dermody and Chris has been there
since there was about a dozen developers.
And he will talk about what it
takes to be successful as a product
manager and head of product.
Both as a team and an individual
within his role at Flipdish.
We talk about his journey, some tips
for founders and we'll bond a little bit
over our Lord and savior, Marty Cagan.
If you're wondering what it's like to
run product for one of ireland's fastest
growing startups stay tuned because i
really enjoyed this conversation and i
hope you enjoy it nearly as much as I did.
Why don't you start by telling
us, because you've been working in
product for 10 years, which is a
lifetime in this industry full stop,
because I didn't even know of product
management as a real career to a lot
of people till about five years ago.
I just didn't, especially in the
Irish market, it just wasn't a thing.
So what made you fall into that role
as opposed to any other, I guess.
Chris: Yeah, I did that.
I fell into it accidentally basically.
Right.
It's an interesting story.
I always mentioned how lucky I
feel to have landed where I am.
I feel incredibly lucky throughout lots of
different, weird things that happened, I
went to college to study product design
which was industrial design basically.
So like designing hardware.
So learned how to model 3d software CAD.
And yeah, the processes that
you go through to like create
a computer mouse, right?
So you sketch it first though at the time
was try and figure out what you're doing.
Well, first of all, you talk to
people and try and understand what's
the problem with mice already.
Right.
I know it was fine.
Did that for four years, got the degree,
but I was by the end of it, I was just
like, I don't want to do this anymore.
It was incredibly slow.
Like hardware is hard, right.
It's really difficult
and slow to get feedback.
Like that example.
I remember literally we made a computer
mouse and you sketch out loads of times,
and then you start making some foam
models and maybe some paper models, and
then you get them into people's hands.
And then they say, oh, it's
not quite right in this way.
And then you do it again.
Then you build it in 3d on the computer
and then maybe you 3d print it.
It was just so incredibly slow.
I'm one of the modules for
um, on that course was like a
tiny bit of web development.
It was like, I think it was like that the
project was like, you just need to present
your product on a webpage basically.
And it was just learning
a bit of HTML and CSS.
And that was the first kind of step
into software, like in like building,
anything like web based or whatever.
So I left college and then drove
a van for four years because I
didn't want to do product design.
So I was a delivery man for four years.
And I remember then thinking
I come on, I've got a degree.
Surely I can find a better
job than being a delivery man.
And I know it was also actually, sorry.
I was delivering food as well at the time.
I remember one of our flip dishes clients.
Now I worked for them back 10 years
ago, I suppose, or 11 years ago.
And I was literally in the car
park waiting on a delivery.
And I was like, right.
Let's search the job market for anything
related to product, because like you said,
product management, isn't really a thing.
I wasn't aware of it as a thing.
And so I started looking for, I just
literally put into job search product and
some product management jobs came open.
I was like, okay.
And one popped open.
It was like a decent salary.
And I was like, okay.
It was so vague.
It was like, really like just, you need to
know Excel and you need to be, you know,
have, uh, an awareness of user experience.
And I'd previously done
some work around it.
Cause I like woodwork and I was
trying to, I was making bottle openers
out of whiskey barrels and I was
putting, I was so proud of myself.
I was putting like a little
bit of whiskey into each box
so that when you open the box.
People would smell whiskey.
And I was like, oh, that's,
really good user experience.
And so I used that in the
interview and they were like, oh
my God, it's really impressive.
And I gave them like a pro, like
whiskey barrel bottle opener.
And they were like, oh yeah,
I can smell the whiskey.
So I got the job and all of a
sudden then I'm a product manager
and I didn't know what I was doing.
But it was, that was
my first kind of, yeah.
Dipping the toe into product
management and During that role
then I just of, I dove much more
deeply into actually getting hands
on with code and not in that role.
Sorry.
But during that role, I was building
like Chrome extensions just to help
out myself and my teams just daily
workflows and that kind of thing.
Um, one of the things that
made me fall in love with web
development was how quick it was.
Right.
You can literally open up a website,
open up the developer console,
change the color of something.
And it's right there.
There's no sketching out
building 3d model, like, and then
getting into someone's hands.
Like, so at the immediacy in that
the really tight feedback loop
was, was what pulled me there.
And I kind of just went from there then,
you know, two years and not PM role
coming into a different, like, slightly
better, all of was product manager and
just building again and again, each time
not knowing what I was doing by the way.
And I think it's an interesting sort
of, eh, element now, like as we're.
So like I mentioned,
we're hiring and Flipdish.
And one of the things I think we struggle
with is all different companies define
product management in different ways
because there isn't a, there probably is
now, but back when I was doing it, there
was no course in product management.
You couldn't like, you know, you can
now go out and do a course on computer
science and then that will get you as
sort of like a specific set of jobs to
qualify you for a specific set of jobs.
But I don't, maybe there is now
for project management there.
Wasn't back then.
But yeah, I just fell, into product
management and I was really lucky.
I like it.
I like doing what I do.
I find building software for people
is really rewarding and I don't fully
understand why but it's, I guess just
building something and seeing people
use it and being happy with it, whatever
it is, whether it's software or.
It's just, I guess, rewarding.
So that's kind of in a nutshell,
how he got, how he got here.
Pure luck, basically.
Niall: It's funny.
I I've worked as a delivery
driver for a chipper before and
things, so it's interesting.
Those little insights.
I always tell people when they're working
through their careers and what they
think are crappy jobs and everything else
that they end up shaping what we become
anyway, in some weird inadvertent way.
Like for instance I know I enjoy sales
more than most people because my job
before tech was fine, wine sales.
So I realized people love stories.
You just tell them a good story and
they'll buy the expensive bottle.
They don't actually care about to taste
in the sense of it has to have some
meaning and story envisioned behind
the piece itself, but on the
web development side of stuff
as well I totally get it.
It's the instant gratification and how
cheap it is to fuck up, because if it's
real, as I call it real engineering, if
you fuck up a bridge, it's expensive.
But if you're just playing around with
some code it's free for all intensive
purposes, as long as you haven't put it
in production, or you haven't made like a
huge blunder and you have the right checks
and balances in place, it's pretty much
free infinitely free to just fail and fail
up words and learn something as you're
building and adapting things as well.
Chris: that's a really good point.
Actually.
I hadn't thought about that
angle, but yeah, it's free.
Cause I remember like it
took to 3d print something or
whatever, like costs real money.
Whereas I suppose with software,
all it is is just time, I guess.
Niall: Yeah.
Time is the only thing of
costs, which is, I know it's.
Uh, commodity, but it's, it, it's a
lot cheaper than all the material that
goes into something physical and real
and something that you can change.
And I loved that, a sense of it.
Like I focus a lot on front
end coding and things because
it's also my attention span.
I like the instant gratification of it.
It's just like, I've done something.
I can show somebody like growing up,
running up to my mom with a crayon
drawing and say, look what I did
Chris: Local host 4,000.
Niall: Yeah,
Chris: Yeah, a hundred.
Niall: It's pretty cool.
And is there any kind of highlights
from those jobs or places that you
got really tripped up or did you at
any point have any crippling doubt?
Since you said you, you didn't know
what you're doing for the whole thing.
Was there any point where
you're just like, I'm not sure.
Chris: Yeah.
I mean every day, I think, uh,
the, I dunno, I have to be careful.
Sometimes I can let the fact
like that imposter syndrome.
Right?
Like you can let that get
in on you a little bit.
And it's a hundred, like everyone
deals with it, there's I mean,
there's books and movies and TV shows
about this exact phenomenon in like
the highest performing people too.
I've ever graced the earth.
So I think in one sense it's natural,
but in another sense, like kind of, I
find, I always tend to self-deprecate
myself and be like, oh, I don't know.
But then when you actually look back and
look, well, actually, no, I do know that.
Sorry.
But the doubt is there all
the time, and I think in a way
it makes you stronger, right?
Because I guess you're less
susceptible to your own biases, right?
Like somebody who's so sure of themselves
and utterly confident in everything they
meet the first thought they have, they're
not going to be open to be able to say,
oh, well actually I can see that from your
point of view or maybe I got it wrong.
Maybe we should do it this way.
I think it's an asset to have that in a
sense, as long as you don't let it cripple
you, from a, just being paralyzed by it.
But it's like, it's a balance, like
everything, I guess you have to try
and find the sweet spot between being
open and almost vulnerable in a way.
While also.
Knowing what, you know,
and being confident.
It's, it's a very, it's a knife edge
balance, but yeah, I mean, I would
kind of think of any major screw ups,
I mean, I've definitely screwed up.
Niall: They haven't found out yet.
Chris: yeah.
Oh, another time.
Don't I remember actually there
was an interest in screwup
about my early days in flipdish.
So about three years ago, actually,
almost to the, nearly to the day.
I had come from a company that I won't
name, but I guess it's on my LinkedIn.
So it was from hostel world.
Right.
So in that company, things
were just a lot slower.
It was like, I think they
had celebrated like 20 years
in, you know, their birthday.
And it was very much a company that
had found what a Dawn started to found
what it does and just executes on that.
And I think had kind of
settled into a rhythm where.
Change was done, very cautiously
probably for good reason, right.
There was probably change happened.
And then like the whole system shut
down and there was a process put in
place then to stop that happening again.
And then maybe a couple of months
later, something else went wrong.
So there's a process put in to make
sure that that doesn't happen again.
And I just, I joined a hostel world then
like in a sort of in a very mature state.
And then I was like, Hey,
why don't we try this?
And then it was like, okay, cool.
So you need to do a risk assessment and
a, you need to also fill out this RFP,
you need to talk to a couple of vendors.
And I was just like, man, it's
just a, it's just a blog plugin.
Like, can I just install it
and to see if it works or not?
When I joined Flipdish, then.
It was like the opposite problem.
I remember one day I was sitting beside
the CEO actually back before COVID and
the front end developer was behind me.
So I just basically thought out loud
to myself about some specific feature.
I was like, why do we do this here?
Why don't we do it this way?
Uh, I can't, I, I don't remember what
it was, but it was the CEO is beside me,
like who would build the whole system.
And he's like, I can't
remember why I did it that way.
Yeah.
It makes sense to change.
It let's change it.
And the front end developer was behind me
and he was like, Hey, I'm in that file.
Now you want me to change it now?
And I was like, whoa, hang on a minute.
Like this, they shouldn't just take
six weeks, like what's going on.
And it was very, it was liberating.
Right.
It was amazing to have, like, I think
we got that deployed like that day.
And, but then a couple of weeks
later, I was like, all right, cool.
And I started to sleep to
flex those muscles a bit.
I made a decision that we should have.
Turn something off or
remove or change something.
And we did it and all of a sudden then
later on that day, a client called in
and said, Hey, where's this thing on.
I need it.
Like, my store is broken.
And, uh, it was my fault.
And I was like, oh, okay, damn going
to have to try and fix that and
went to the front end developer.
And he was like, you just
told me to turn that off.
I was like, yeah, I'm sorry,
can we please turn it back on?
And yeah, I've definitely screwed
up, but if you can use logic and
reason, especially in Flipdish, as
you like find out if there's logic
and reason behind what you're doing
on competence, I suppose, from a
fundamental point of view, nobody
like, it's fine to try things.
It's like, it's the typical
Facebook thing, right?
Move fast and break stuff.
But that gets harder and harder.
The bigger you are because
the risk is larger, right?
If you if you break something now
you're impacting way more people
than you would have a year ago.
And so there's that balance to be found.
It's something I can see that, you know,
it's, as things develop and Flipdish and
we grow and there's more people and more
teams and more inevitably more processes.
I can see those processes coming
in and like things may be not
get slower necessarily, but a bit
more, there's just more people
to talk to, to get something done.
And it's one of the things I'm trying to
make sure we, as a company and as a, as a
product team, I guess stay very flexible
and we need to always be asking like,
wait, does that process still make sense?
Because maybe it doesn't.
And that's like, even in the
onboarding that we do with the new
starters in product is like, look.
We started building this all.
He started building his onboarding
two years ago when we started
expanding the product team.
A lot of it's probably broken at, you
need to tell me over the next couple
of months, what you find doesn't
make sense anymore and we'll fix
it and make, and make it better for
the next person that comes along.
So to answer your question, there's
been many, many screw-ups, but I think
as long as there's a very open nature
or culture, I suppose, and thankfully
that allows you to screw up as long
as you're willing to fix it quickly.
Niall: yeah.
absolutely.
And I think a combination of reacting
fast learning from mistakes that imposter
syndrome, I think is fuel for a lot
of people as well, to just get better,
because the only way to not feel like
an imposter is to read more books, learn
more shit and continue and continue.
I think it just, I, I know it's what
motivates me to read as much as I do
about what's going on and everything
else, because I still worried about being
found out as a fraud, you know, it's
like, I just need to stay a chapter ahead.
Chris: Yeah.
Yeah.
It's funny.
Isn't it?
Like, what is that?
It's I think it's, it's almost
an evolutionary trait, isn't it?
Like, it's probably a
human thing like that.
The humans that were satisfied with
where they were just didn't prosper.
It's like a constant fear
of not being good enough.
So we constantly battled to be better,
Niall: Yeah.
There's definitely some weird psychology
behind it because we all have it.
We haven't adapted it to the, as I call
it the fake world of the internet jobs.
Yes.
So there's definitely some real
evolutionary traits that are
wreaking havoc in our new imaginary
world that we're building.
Chris: Yeah.
Now you're freaking me out now.
Niall: But let's not do that.
You want to just, you'll just disconnect.
Go off and panic in a corner somewhere.
Chris: Existential crisis caused by Niall.
Niall: Yeah.
I haven't done that to any one yet.
So that would be anyone yet being
the key word or nobody's caught
come back to tell me anyway.
So you then went from product
into when you got promoted into
head of product, obviously.
Is that new, did you get promoted after
the massive funding round recently or
that's why you got the massive funding
round, I guess they put you in head of
Chris: exactly.
I was like, oh, you've got
Chris Dermody in there now here.
Take my money.
No, not quite.
So yeah, I joined flipped and I think
When I joined, it was basically, so it
was effectively just the CEO and the CTO
dealing with, I can't remember off the top
of my head, but it's somewhere between 11
and 14 developers at the time, I think.
And there was no real
product management structure.
Obviously the CEO and CTO are sort of
like effectively the product managers,
but of course at that stage, like we
were going, we were pursuing funding.
We were growing rapidly.
When I joined, they were just launching
the sales teams across UK, France,
Germany, Spain on the U S right.
So that was kind of consuming
the whole company at the time.
And I'm trying to figure out what
product changes are needed there.
So I was able to come in and be the, sort
of the product manager to take what we,
what were sort of broad, things we need to
do and distill them into more deliverable
pieces of work that the development team
can actually reason about and deliver
on in terms of just basic requirements.
So I know that I was doing that for
a year in the year that I was there.
We basically, so we had, by
my count about six or seven
different products, technically.
So we've liked the online ordering.
We had the mobile apps and we had a client
facing portal that we were building out.
We also had a windows based app that
we were building and a couple of.
Sort of projects too.
And, but I was primarily focused on
the the self-serve client portal.
And, but also sort of like filling
in where needed on all of these other
products and trying to figure out
like, you know, what's a basic kind of
flow makes sense for a given solution.
And then in that time, in that year
that I was there, or the first year that
I was there, we also built out kiosks
and another, a terminal app, which is
an Android based device which is used
bikes like, restaurants, kitchens to
print off orders and to manage orders,
refund orders, view orders, et cetera.
So we added like seven or eight
products and after a year I was like,
so can we please get some more of me
to do some of these product works?
Like I'm a bit stretched.
And they, you know, and I think this
happens typically in many, I saw
it in lots of different departments
and Flipdish and effectively,
like it was like, right, cool.
We're not hiring someone to go and
figure out hiring you, just go hire
them and figure it out basically.
And I was like, okay, cool, never done
this before, but let's figure it out.
I done a little bit of hiring and
a little bit of management, but
I hadn't started building out a
like my own product team ever.
So that was a new a new thing for me.
And again, made lots of mistakes.
But it w it was in the end of workouts.
Okay.
Ish so far anyway.
So time will tell.
Yeah, it's gone.
It's not going too badly so
far, and I'm really happy.
Like, I've been one of
like the team we have now.
We, so we hired or we got in a VP of
product, lasts it just over a year ago,
I suppose, a year and two months ago.
And he's been great.
James has just been, he brings, I
remember when we were when we were con
a year, two years ago, I suppose we
were talking like, who do we bring in?
What kind of team topology make sense?
I was very like I was open.
I was like, I've never done this before.
I can give you all the best guess is what
I think makes sense for our situation.
But.
How about we try and go find somebody
who's done this before and maybe two
or three times and knows the mistakes
that I'm about to make and can
tell us not to make those mistakes.
And happily, we were able to find
James Grimes, who's done this before
and was able to come in and tell
us not to make those mistakes.
And I think that's been a
common theme across the board.
I think that like from executive
level, all the way down, across all
the different teams, as we continue to
build them out, find people who have
done this before and want to be involved
in a really fast growing company in
a really interesting industry and get
them in and let them do their job.
And that's what we've been doing
and it's, it's working really well
so far not everything's perfect.
And it never will be right in
an impossible situation to get
to, but we've been really lucky
I think with with our product.
Well, I'm looking in some ways
we we've lost one or two people.
One of them to a, a oh my God.
I've forgotten the, the incubator
in the U S what's that one?
dammit.
Yes.
Y Combinator.
Yes.
Niall: That's a good
place to lose some too.
That's a
Chris: I know, right?
Niall: and stuff.
You know, you can't even, you
can't even hate them that much.
That's the.
Chris: I know.
It was like, well, yeah,
Simon was his name.
When he came to me, he was
like, Hey Chris, can we talk?
It was like, on a Friday, I was
like, Simon, what are you doing?
And he was like, so, uh, when I
started, we got into white, common area.
I was like, no, Simon, why
do you, why do you hate me?
Niall: Yeah,
Chris: but I was the delighted for him.
Like, he was like, it's too big of
an opportunity to not to knock over.
I was like, absolutely like,
you know, a hundred percent.
Niall: Simon, if you're listening, he
has his middle finger to the screen.
Chris: Yeah, absolutely.
Now he knows, I love him.
I joke, I joke and say that I
taught him everything he knows,
but everyone knows that's not true.
So, yeah, we actually have another,
we have a developer, an engineer who
just handed in his notice cause his
company just got a load of funding.
So it's an interesting development that
the type of person that we've managed
to attract so far are only leaving
because they started their own very
successful companies and businesses.
And so there's a lot of one of the things
I love about Flipdish is just, there's
so many really talented people here.
And I'm constantly learning from
them, just by osmosis, just by
being near them and hearing them
what they say about different things.
Like we have a fantastic product
marketing team now, or our flip ditch
managed marketing team where we manage
the online paid presence for the
restaurants and they're able to every
month or so when we meet open, they're
able to tell us like, what's the latest
high regarding organic SEO and unpaid
marketing and all that kind of thing.
It's just being around.
That's like the person is fantastic.
Niall: I know for a fact that
everyone gets on really well in
there because I have a couple
of friends who work in there.
Yeah.
I want to say names because
it will give them too much.
Kudos.
Do want to be, just be, to be friends
with a cool person like me, you know,
Chris: Of course.
Niall: One guy in particular, I know who.
I I'm so delighted as in there, because
he's loving his time because he was
somebody I did an online degree with,
for coding and he nearly dropped out
Of coding completely, but I used to
go to his house and sit with them
and call to get them over the line.
And I'm so happy that he's just so
excited about going to work everyday
and loves the flexibility has never
been for working with yourselves.
And more importantly, and selfishly, I
am a fan of flipped dish because I get
Romayos delivered to my house quite a lot.
Chris: nice.
Niall: You know, getting to use
something quite frequently, probably too.
I'm not gonna admit how frequently.
Chris: Romayos yeah, one of
our, one of our boats, we have
very, very high up there on our
client list anyway, in Ireland.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
I thought you've reminded me.
Actually.
I remember my local place
Quattro wood fire pizza.
It's my favorite.
Anywhere actually that I found
and I used to get it all the time.
Not so much lately actually, cause I
need to shave off a few pounds going
into summer, you know, I remember I
was, I was getting it from them and I
got a text message from them saying,
Hey, we haven't seen you in a while.
Here's 20% off your next order.
If you use it within the next two days
to order a pizza or whatever, I was
like, oh my God, that is so smart.
Like I remember looking at him.
Like I wasn't gonna, but now that
I have 20% off, you know, and it's
like, I usually order on a Friday
and you've sent me this text.
Like I am definitely
ordering pizza tonight.
And a couple of weeks later, then I
interviewed in flipped dish and like,
they were talking me through all of
the things I do and we do, oh, we
have this retention program for our
clients where we send them a text.
I was like, wait, do you do Quattro?
I was like, you call me,
you absolutely call me.
Straight away, I was like, oh, okay.
That is like just smart.
And it's like, it's the
simple, it's a simple thing.
You know, customer hasn't ordered
from store X in Y timeframe.
Send them this text with, uh,
with this generated voucher.
Like it's, it's not a massively complex
system, but it absolutely got me.
And we see from the data works
Niall: It gets me all the time as
well, but like now I have a rubber
elbow when it comes to not cooking.
So
Chris: Oh
Niall: yeah
I am the low hanging fruit.
So I would have not said it's
the best, but it's funny.
It's just, I guess nobody tells you how
weak they are, but it was texts that
convinced her diet to go out the window.
Chris: I remember I bumped into a friend
of mine there a while back and she
was like, oh, what are you doing now?
I was like, oh, I work in
a company called flipdish.
And she was like, oh, flipdish.
I know, flip dish.
I was like, how do you know, flip dish?
She was like, oh, well, I know my
local Chinese place uses flipped
because I see the logo and it's
like Powell, booklet, dish.
And so I was like, wow.
Okay.
I did not realize we had
a consumer like presence.
But it's interesting.
It's quite a pull, like people getting
to work on something that your friends
can use or do use, like whether they
realize it or not is is quite unique.
Like when I was on the market for a
PM role back when I was looking around
and you'd see oh, there's like this
financial services, product manager,
or like, here's like, we're building
software for accountancy or whatever.
It's like, that's yeah.
Okay.
That's fine.
I'm sure it's successful, but it's
not something I would see every day.
Whereas like here, like if you walk the
block of, of Sandyford, you would see
Flipdish as kiosks, you would see flipped
as QR codes in the window and you would
see the different restaurants actually
that are delivering via flip dish.
So yeah, like just, it's so visible that
it's It's just an interesting element
to the roles, at that you don't usually
get into in a lot of other companies.
Niall: I would love to know what
does a head of product do day to day.
And what's different between
being a head of product versus
product management, I guess.
Chris: Sure.
Yeah.
For me, at least product management,
you're not managing people and product
management is a very, you're leading
people, but not managing them, which
is a subtle but important difference.
You have to persuade people around to
your way of thinking, as opposed to
just telling them what you're doing.
The head of product then, at
least how we define in Flipdish.
So we have basically three verticals and
we split them up that way because they're
quite different in terms of the skillset
or approach needed for each vertical.
So we have consumer experience, which
is the software we build and maintain
for the actual, like ordering food.
Right?
So the, what the consumer sees when
they're either ordering a mobile
app or web or a kiosk or a table
ordering or whatever and that's one,
like that's a specific skill sets
to build and design for consumers.
Then we have a different, we have
another vertical for the client
facing software that we build.
So that's our the Flipdish portal
to flip this terminal our windows
up to a certain extent on one
or two other small projects too.
And that's, it's its own entity.
you've got your like
software as a service.
You've got your upgrades in the
portal, that kind of thing ancillary
services and that kind of thing.
That's their two sort of verticals and
each one would have a head of product
ahead of that vertical let's say, and
then we've got integrations as well.
So integrations are such a key
element we'll often have point of sale
integrations and they need their orders
just to go straight to their point of
sale and then not have not have any
extra overhead in terms of operational
things that they have to do in order
to get online orders via flip dish.
So integrations are a huge outlet.
You gentlemen put there it's own
entity again, there's, it's, it's
its own sort of it's its own realm
of development and engineering.
So that's our three verticals on each
vertical has a head of product and
I'm sitting in on the client side.
So on the B2B side so in our
vertical we've currently got
three teams that are focused on
the on the client side software.
We'll see how the rest of this year
and next year it goes, cause it's
gonna, we're gonna, we're growing
the team aggressively again probably
growing our product portfolio as well,
but it won't say too much about that.
And yeah, we'll see what the product
or the head of product role evolves
into, but effectively we are leading
the product managers and on their teams,
making sure that everyone is moving in
the same direction, alignment internally
and Flipdish now is a very hot topic
.
We have to be laser focused on the
right things at the right time.
If we're starting to pull in different
directions would be like, every team
will do great work, but if it's not
in the right direction, the company
isn't moving in the right direction
as, as effectively as it could.
My day-to-day is at the moment
it's hiring and onboarding.
So we're still building up those
teams trying to give our new
incoming product managers, all
of the contexts that they need in
order to do their jobs effectively.
Like we're hiring, we're
not hiring juniors.
We are hiring experienced talented
people who can come in with a wealth of
experience and knowledge, and they just
need to know the context in which they
operate so that they can work effectively.
And we've, that's, that's been working
really well so far with the PMs we've
been bringing in and just like giving
them all of the information it needs
to know, and then letting them loose.
So a more of that for the rest of the
year, from a head of product point
of view, and working with the other
verticals, making sure that we're
all aligned and that the any global
initiatives not global in terms of
geography, but I guess global that
span all of the different verticals,
making sure we're all interlinked
and making sure that let's say
menu team in the, on the B2B side.
And when they build a feature, let's
say allergens is when we're working on
at the moment, the consumer apps on the
integration side all need to be aware of
when that information is available so that
they can then use it in, on the consumer
apps as well as on the integrations.
And so making sure that the inter
interplays happening there at a, at
a global level, um, and then taking
the company strategy and making
sure that our roadmaps are in place
and that they're solid and everyone
is agreed and aligned on them.
And any changes to those roads.
Are warranted.
So we are very, we're very open company.
I've mentioned that before, right?
I think we need to be
adaptable and flexible.
If an opportunity comes up for something
presents itself, that makes sense to
go for, we need to be able to say,
actually now that makes sense to go
for and do and not do this other thing.
And any changes then to our roadmap
need to be justified and make
sure that it's the right decision
for what we're trying to do.
And, and that bore fruits
when COVID hit, of course.
Right.
So when COVID hit us, you know, we
didn't know what was going to happen.
Everybody took a pay cut.
We didn't know, we're not going to be
layoffs, like what was going to happen,
but very quickly then we realized, oh,
deliveries can still happen on all of us.
Hundreds of thousands of stores that
need to do deliveries and collection
that didn't need it before on Flipdish.
Perfect.
Because we can get them set
up in hours less than ours.
So, yeah, that adaptability and being
able to say, okay, well, you know,
maybe we don't do this product that
we've been working on for a couple
of weeks or maybe a few months.
And we parked that for now until
it makes sense to pick it up again.
And we actually focus on table ordering
queue order and pay delivery, that
kind of thing, and in a bigger way.
So,
Niall: It leans our neck nicely
because it's got one of the questions
then really is to change from working
on startup to some more funded.
And I guess this is all just this journey
has happened pretty much over COVID
remotely and everything else nearly.
And I think you, you probably have
answered it in the sense of you're
not doing hands-on product management.
You're making sure divisions are
aligned and the you're hiring
people and managing people.
So I guess you don't have to time to be
sitting there with doing the user research
like you had in the past that our day
D only changes are there any other big.
That has happened from, going
from startup to where you are now.
Chris: Sure.
So I'm still actually in, quite in
the weeds until we're, we're hard
trying to hire for our menu PM.
So until we have that person, I, um, I'm
working in the weeds as to every day,
you as a PM, running Jared tickets on and
trying to get things done with that team
also juggling the head of product stuff.
In terms of what's changed.
So.
One of the things is that reactivity,
you know, when we were smaller, we
could like, if a large client came to
us or relatively large for the time
and said they needed to feed your ex in
order to get a deal doing like we, as a
company, we had to be able to go cool.
Let's down tools on jump on that.
And for the next week or two, get that
Dawn's so that we get that client on.
That is good in the sense that you can
be very quick and adapt to customer
problems and get deals done and push the
company forward in the meaningful way.
That's bad because you're bouncing
from fire to fire from thing to thing,
you've got no real, it's impossible to
have any sort of long-term roadmap or
like not, not direction, but any sort
of, I remember we tried to do not long
after I joined, we were like, right.
What's the next six months look
like, and we planned it out and
spend a good bit of effort on it.
And then like, none of that six months
actually, was what we thought it
would be because opportunities arise
problems come up, bugs come up, whatever
we needed to just get them done.
So that like as a smaller company,
I think the smaller you are, the
more adaptable you need to be.
And I think looking back, I I wish I
accepted that more is what I'm trying
to say, because it can cause a lot of
friction where you're like, you know, you,
maybe you spend a week or two planning out
this thing and then something else pops up
and that's all sort of almost wasted time.
Because even if you pick it up again in
six weeks, you have to go back and almost
start from the start and go, right?
Where, where are we with this?
So as we grew, as we got the funding,
as the team's expanded, as our
capabilities and resources got better,
as we, brought in a marketing team or
a product marketing team, I should say.
And then inevitably all of those
teams that need to know right, what's
happening next month and two months and
three months, I need to know, what's
my my comms calendar on the product
marketing side who do I need to be?
What do we need to get
translated for the help desk?
And there's, there's a lot more
lead time that has to happen.
So as you get bigger, then you need to
be a lot better at planning and endeavor.
Inevitably be.
Less able to react in a snap way
like you could when you're smaller.
And I think, that's the typical thing.
Like people say that the smaller companies
have that have that advantage, right?
You can move a lot quicker.
And I never think, I don't think
I fully appreciated that until
I joined flip dish when I did.
And we saw the transition into
the company we are now and
on the direction we're going.
And inevitably you, you just can't.
From culturally, if you, if you're
a company that jumps on the next
opportunity, like overnight you're,
you can't have a long-term roadmap.
You're never going to attract enterprise
customers because enterprise clients
are looking at you going, right.
Well, if we get in bed with you, we
need to know for the next three to five
years, you're going in the direction
we're going, and we're aligned that way.
So you need to tell us what your
three to five year roadmap is
like from a product point of view.
And if you can't provide that,
you're not going to get the deal.
And if you do provide it and don't
adhere to it, then you're going to
lose the own share in an effective
relationship in that industry.
So that, that's one thing I
noticed that as a smaller company,
you can be much more adoptable.
And even internally though, just
understanding what that is like.
I remember when we started hiring
product managers I was explaining to them
like, look, you're coming into a very,
very adoptable, quick moving company.
If you're not able to, if you,
if you're, if it upsets you to
like plan something in a non.
This is not going to work out and you
shouldn't, you shouldn't join Flipdish.
And yeah, I think so that's one big thing.
I know that's not to say we're not
adopted well, we adopt every single day.
And we're very open and sort
of, if an opportunity arises
we're we look at and go, cool.
What, what would it take to, you know,
to make the most of that opportunity?
And are we willing to make that,
compromise and, but you definitely
become less able to make those, quick
snap decisions, the smaller you are.
I suppose, do it a thing then is.
So as inevitably as you grow, you've
got these growing pains, right?
You've got where previously, maybe,
I might've written a blog post,
which marketed a specific feature
and I could get it done in 20
minutes and just spend something
ops few screenshots of the feature.
And it's Hey, flip dish now does this.
And here's how to do it on.
There you go.
And that's our marketing for the
feature don't right nowadays,
it's well, we operate in, seven
different localized markets.
There needs to be a Flipdish
academy video made about it.
We need to help desk articles translated.
We need to, have an email campaign
going out to leads as well as existing
clients explaining how to use a new
feature and get the most out of it.
There's way more to it now where
you could do something quick
and dirty yourself previously.
You're now talking to six different teams
potentially across different time zones to
figure out the best way to do something.
And that's inevitably a bit slower.
And.
The transition into
that is quite difficult.
Like every single week, almost it feels
like because in Flipdish, we're growing
so aggressively every single week.
It's like, okay, who now
do I talk to for this?
Were there maybe where there was one
person last week now there's like a team
of three I have to talk to and, and let
them know about it and, you know, catch
them up on where we are with the feature.
So I guess the point I'm trying to
make is that transition from smaller to
larger and being very open about right.
We have this process or had this
process, does it still make sense?
No.
Cool.
Let's change it and, figure, and this
is now our process and, in two or three
months, we'll probably revisit and go,
actually that doesn't make sense anymore.
Let's change it again.
So, yeah, I think that that
adaptability is critical.
If you get too, it comes down to as well.
I think the type of person that
you bring into the teams, like the,
you cannot have people that aren't
comfortable with that flexibility.
Like not everyone is I know not
everyone needs to be or should be.
It's not a, it's not, if you're
not that open to change, it's not
necessarily a flaw in your person.
It's just the type of person you are.
And I think, you know, we, we spoke
about psychometric tests earlier and
that's one of the things that we look
for is that like, can they handle
the adoptability that's needed and
to work in a company like flipped
as well as we continue to grow, I
can never remember that guy's name.
Ken Ken Brock he wrote a product
book, but I went to an online
sort of a fireside chat with him.
And he, uh, it was one of the things he
said that stuck with me was there's three
different types of product managers.
There's the scrappy product manager
who can kind of do a little bit of
everything and get you from zero to one.
Right.
They can go, they can take
an idea and get it to one.
And then there's a.
There's a, the growth product manager
who, isn't as scrappy, but can work
really well across different teams
and get something from one to 10.
And then there's a third
type of product manager.
Who's really good at taking a mature
product on just managing that and
optimizing it for revenue over the,
over a course of 10 years, let's say.
And it's something that I
never, I never realized because,
but it made so much sense.
And I've seen those types of people
in all of my different roles as
PM and or product in product, in
different companies I've seen.
And I never fully understood, like why?
Like you're more flexible here,
but on your very more, you're more
rigid, but you're better at this.
And I never understood that dynamic, but
it really stuck with me when he set out.
I can't remember his name.
I'll send them on.
But,
Niall: Yeah, please do.
I'm sure he has an article on it
because I'd love to read that.
That sounds a very enlightening.
Chris: Yeah, it opened like, I
mean, it made some, as soon as I
heard, I was like, yes, absolutely.
Like just there's certain types of PMs.
And I it's funny, like, I I'm often afraid
I flipped the outgrow me cause I feel like
I quite suited the smaller, not small,
but like the, I feel like on generally.
Okay.
At a lot of things, like, I feel
like I can throw it together.
I got relatively okay.
Design or user experience,
like in code a tiny bit.
Well, not a tiny bit.
I can code enough to be dangerous.
Like I like to say and
enough to have a product.
I can write a blog post about marketing
and you can talk to people about things.
That's something that I think from a,
from hiring PM, point of rope, point of
view, I think you need to be conscious
of what kind of PM are you hiring for?
What kind of traits do you need?
Like, are they taking a mature
product and just milking it?
And there's no real, a, maybe it's a
certain it's sort of a semi-synthetic
product or is it like an idea of a product
that needs to be gotten from zero to one?
And they're two very different people.
Niall: I never actually
thought about that later on.
It's funny because depending on where
you're sitting in, in the journey, one of
those people, it looks very incompetent.
Like if you were to start, I'm looking
at the third type of person, you're
like, this person is useless right now.
So it is a case of getting the
right people at the right time.
Chris: yeah.
Yeah.
It's Ken, Sandy, sorry.
Uh, executive level product manual
just looked him up on LinkedIn.
Ken Ken sandy is the guy's name.
I can't find his book,
but yeah, influential.
Yeah.
There you go.
Yeah.
Influential pm.com.
Now that's the one.
When he said it just stuck with me.
So.
I think I know I've seen that like when
we've been hiring PMs, like we that
the PM's who maybe are a bit more on
the elliptical and very much around
the data, like they're in the, what
I think they're in the middle, right?
They're not like at the start.
Cause at the start, you don't
have data, you just have to go
on sort of flying by the seat of
your pants and intuition almost.
And, and it's only in stage two,
then you start to have data in three,
of course you've got data and, but
yeah, we've seen PM's who may be a
bit too analytical and kind of not
comfortable in the unknown as much.
And they're a bit, just a
bit slower to move done.
The stage one product managers
might be which depending on where
your company is at, maybe you can
afford, and maybe you can't afford.
Niall: That's a wide variety of skill
sets and I guess this why there isn't
money formal courses for doing this
stuff, because it's a very different
skill, depending it's usually somebody
pulled out of somewhere to help
with strategy or to help with, from
design or help from engineering.
And it's very different styles of people.
And you alluded this
before to call as well.
We were talking about different
product managers suiting,
different CEOs in the early days.
But before I jump back into that, what
I was thinking is , if it was an area
of product management, you think most
people should get good at if something I
preach for instance, and you can steal it.
If you want if it's something I preach
to people as always is to get good at
talking to people, get good at finding
out what people are actually saying.
I don't know if there's any areas in
product management that you think would be
crucial that people should just pick up,
especially if they're running their own.
Chris: Yeah.
So I think I'm tempted to steal your
one, but I don't want to just say
communication because it's such a,
it's a bit of a cop-out, but one of the
things that we notice in flipped is,
especially as we continue to grow is
over-communicating from a product point
of view and almost kind of be doing it.
You can't really over-communicate enough.
The telling internal people on clients
about what you're building while you're
building and how to get success with
what you're building is almost like the
code nerdy is secondary to that almost.
Talking to people like you
mentioned, I think, finding out
what they're actually saying.
One of the re like one of the things.
One of the things we look for in PMs,
as well as that sort of entrepreneurial
bent, I suppose, an experience because
they've had to come up against this where
a client is asking for something, or even
if you're in a, if you're in contracting
and it like in an agency or whatever,
and you've got a client that way and
they're asking for something like, they
want a button here and, from a simplistic
point of view, you go, okay, cool.
We can not have put them
there, but then you add it.
And it's like, well, no,
but I wanted it to do this.
Like, okay, well, I didn't know
you wanted to actually do something
or, you know, I didn't know that
was the problem you want solved.
Being able to talk to somebody and I
suppose empathize on just the typical,
it's almost cliche at this stage, right.
Asking the five whys.
Right?
Like, why do you want that?
Oh, well, because X or
Y why do you want X?
Oh, because why would you
have a, why you want Y
Niall: First-principles, really?
I, not, a lot of people use it
until that's first principles is
digging into the real reason why.
Chris: Yeah.
And if I was on the call now with
the product manager and a client and
the PM was just like one word answer.
He said, why I would
go, what are you doing?
Stop asking why, but you like it,
you do have to get, you have to dig.
Right.
Cause they won't do that for you.
Right.
They will just say, I want it here.
I want this thing to do.
I mean, it's, it's too easy.
It's, it's actually, it's a mark
of a junior product manager when
they just go, all right, cool.
Yeah.
Well, we probably have that in two weeks,
whereas the more senior person will
have known they've been through this.
And they'll know, but like, okay,
well what do you expect it to do?
And like, okay, well, you know, have
you tried an Excel spreadsheet for that?
Because we can actually, I can
give you a formula in Google
sheets that does that already.
And maybe we'll do that first and all, I
can give you the data that way and then
see what you want to do with that data.
And then we take it from there.
One of the things I say to the PMs that
we joined or that joint foot dish in our
onboarding is the best code is the code.
You don't have to write.
And if you have to, if you have
the right code, you have to design
it, write it, test it, maintain
it, debug it, and potentially
eventually sunset it and kill it.
And that's a lot of work to do.
Nevermind.
Feature flagging it and
buy all that kind of thing.
And one of the things we say internally
is on, especially nowadays, right.
Actually Simon here's another
shout out for your company noloco
there make building a no code
platform for building apps, right?
So, that would be my first port of call.
Now when a client says, oh,
I need to be able to do this.
And I was like, cool,
well, here's the raw data.
Let's put this in a Google sheet.
And like I'm running through
this processing of this
formula and sorted by this.
Now here's your answer to your question
now, what do you want to do with this?
And then it's more easier for them to
figure out mentally, oh, well now I want
to be able to send a text messages to
those people or do something to that.
All right, cool.
Well then we can take, these user IDs
and put them in here or whatever, or
send them into Twilio or whatever.
And so yeah, getting talking
to people, figuring out.
Is the underlying problem.
And then can you solve that problem
in a basic way with no code?
Because it could be the
best code is the code.
You don't have to write and
then take it from there.
And that helps, that helps get to the why.
Right?
So if they, if you, if they don't really
cause lines one-off and understand what
they might intuitive to understand, but
not be able to actually communicate it.
And so showing them the first piece
of data that they need, or they
think they need an insane, cool.
Here it is.
Now, what do you want to do is often a
great way to get to the underlying why?
Oh, well I want to X and so, yeah.
I hope hopefully I didn't
totally steal your one.
Niall: No, no.
You added to it presently as well, I
think I see a lot of technical founders
and that's where it kind of makes me
over is the technical founders often
think, it's quicker to sketch and code
and build things and just ship it.
And I I've seen that a lot, especially
because I'm so heavily embedded in the
tech community here and coder community
that I see a lot of technical founders to
just like, I'll build it and I'll test it
that way and I'll change it with the code.
And I'm like, just pick up Figma
or something and just show them
what it is before you go there.
It's infinitely quicker.
And it's a very counter-intuitive thing
to tell somebody who knows how to code
and doesn't know Figma, that it will
be faster to pick up Figma and try it.
Chris: Yeah.
It's a, I think it's a very
common pitfall and I've fallen
into it myself many years ago.
I mean, not many years ago.
I think as coders or we like
coding, we like building things.
I am seeing things change on screen.
Right.
So our default is like,
oh, I'll just code it.
It's less cognitive energy to just code
it than it is to think through, you know,
without actually seeing it on screen.
But yeah, I love like Figma I think
is a fantastic tool of Miro as well.
I think they're very close to our, we
use them everyday in Flipdish basically.
Niall: I don't know why I defaulted.
I didn't even say it
like some design tool.
I just defaulted to Figma because
in my head, that's what I go to
Chris: Like you said,
it's so, so quick, right?
Like, so literally every single day
in here, we'll take a screenshot of
a, like our portal, for instance, of
a, and we'll often, like I'll actually
open up the developer console and just
give myself some extra white space.
If I want to put something into the
page, or I just make something to an
explicit height in the console and then
screenshot that, throw it into Figma
and then just throw some stuff in there.
And it's so much quicker to just
glue together a couple of screens,
quick prototype, and then you can
give that to a client and say,
here, does this work for you?
What does it not what
doesn't work for you?
That, that, again, it comes back to
what I was talking about earlier.
Like the why okay, here's the first
bit of information that you asked for
now, what do you want to do with it?
But yeah, I think it's a very common,
it's a very, because we like, you
know, we like building things, right?
So I can't think of any situation
where it's actually quicker to
code it or better to code it than
it is to first build it prototype.
Niall: So it's a major gripe of mine, and
I'm going to have to end up like to giving
out about people who don't plan it out
beforehand in a second, because I run my
own kind of software development agency.
I've worked for other software development
agencies and there's so many people who
just like, look, if I give you say a
hundred grand, can't you just build it.
And it's just like, build what
you haven't been very clear here.
You're saying you want it after.
Uh, sell shoes for instance,
or something like that.
What shoes, what this wa where
are you going to what's all
this I'm like, I don't know.
We'll figure it out.
And if it's kind of like, do you want to
spend a few thousand earlier on to make
sure you're building the right thing?
And a lot of people don't.
So I don't think it's exclusively
coders that want that.
It's just, I think in our own
heads, it's easier to jump to.
I have it solved.
And then, you know, like,
Chris: Yeah.
A hundred percent yet.
I think that's why as product people it's,
especially in a company like like flip
dish, eh, I know we keep talking about
the dish, but that's where I work had it.
It's you're all, you almost have to be the
guardian of product in a sense, like you
have to be like, not to be precious about
it, but just to sorta to try and use what
you have, like tools like Google sheets,
or Simon's noloco or Figma or whatever.
To get the sort of first cause a lot of
people don't know what they want because
they don't, they can't visualize it.
They can't think it all the way through.
Whereas like I said, if you give
them the first step or first two
or three steps, and then they be
like, oh, that's not what I meant.
I don't really want that data.
I want this thing over here.
It I think that's incumbent
on us as product people to
guard the product in that way.
And to tease that out in
all those conversations.
Niall: I knew you alluded to this earlier.
You said that everyone in there,
especially in the early days was very
entrepreneurial, including yourself.
Like you've tons of side projects as
well, which I just think is outrageous
because you're already juggling so
much shit in there that I, I'm trying
to hard to juggle just my own thing
right now without doing other things.
Well, I guess I'm doing this.
This is just something that I ever
added extra to pile, are you using
those side projects to learn from,
or do you have the ultimate goal
of starting something yourself?
Or what drives you to do that?
Chris: So I was gonna touch on it a
little bit earlier on when we were talking
about, you know, going straight to code.
And I was gonna throw in the caveat
because I experienced this myself, like,
so I was gone throwing the caveat that
maybe sometimes you just want to code,
and sometimes I just want to code, right.
I don't really like my side projects.
Like they get a couple of visitors and
every now and again, if I share something
on Reddit or something, I might get
a spike, but the main goal for them
right now is just a creative outlet.
Like that's all they
are really I don't know.
I've seen in turn the amphibious,
what it takes to make a good
product and to make it a success.
It's not just an engineer or
a product person like myself.
It is a team of sales, marketers
engineers to maintain this.
Like it's more than just me and I'm
not, I think there's a lot of I mean,
I look up to a lot of the Andy hikers,
like Peter levels or I can't even
think of any of the names, but there's
lots of people maybe, or remember
the guy's name on the art of product.
I think his name is Peter as well.
Anyway.
Yeah, there's lots of people who are
doing it, maybe a solo founders, but
for me, my side projects are really
just primarily, they're just an outlet.
I just want to sit down and put
on the headphones, have a coffee
on code for a while on an idea
or a random idea that I have.
And then sometimes there also
just to understand the technical.
Things that may be the
team is dealing with.
I wanted to I wanted to understand, so
we went through a transition internally
and flipped it from one translation
service to another because of, we
just outgrew the first one basically.
And I never, I'd never built
in translations into any of
my side projects because.
Just coded in English or whatever.
And so I wanted to understand what
the teams were dealing with in terms
of like how it integrates into a
deploy or to a development workflow.
And so I just went up a new, yeah.
One of my, that my latest idea, I guess, I
wanted it from the outset habit localized
and it was just the tool then just to
try and figure out, oh, okay, cool.
This is what the developers are.
What's been possible in
terms of localization.
Here's the problems around like
pluralization on localization or how
do you manage different time zones
and time formats in different locales.
And that's everything that we're
dealing with and flipped it.
But from a product point of view, I
wouldn't have understood the technical
sort of fam challenges there, and
whereas just getting hands-on with it
and, figuring out, oh, okay, well, this
should say, you know, wound product when
there's a single product, but it should
say three products when it's plural and.
Like translate into different languages.
So it's a bit about it primarily is
there just creative outlets for where
don't have to talk to anybody to build
something like in flip that says this
had you to talk to six different teams
and figure out a roadmap and talk
to your engineers and make sure that
they're happy with the solution or not
that they're happy with the solution,
but that they've created the solution
of the problem that you've identified.
Whereas when it's yourself, you
just sit down as, is that coffee
headphones on nice Spotify playlist
and just code something up and get
something built in an hour or so.
Niall: I love that.
I'm just picturing you walking up to
some engineers, just going, fuck you.
I knew it could be done.
You said it couldn't be done.
Chris: Well, that's the only thing
you got to keep them on their toes.
I've been, I've actually put an idea.
We have hackathons every word you
wouldn't actually say when I think and
we have a page in notion where like
anyone can throw in ideas for hackathons.
And I was like, I wonder,
can this be the one?
So I threw in an idea and I wasn't
sure if it was technically feasible,
but now I know it can be done.
So I was like, no, I
know that can be done.
I look here.
It is.
They, my side project.
Niall: Have you ever thought of doing a
one of those hackathons more publicly?
Chris: In Flipdish mean yes,
actually that was considered I don't
know where the latest on that is.
Niall: But we'll have to have a chat
afterwards because I know ourselves and
Codú and The Codú community, which we have
a huge community for that kind of things.
But also I know the people over
in code Institute very well.
They're always looking for people
to team up with, to do to old
hackathons with and things.
So it might be a good one.
Since I know from talking before
this, that you were trying to
do a big career drive as well.
Going straight to the coding schools,
there's always a, an easy win.
Chris: Happy days.
Yeah.
That'd be great.
Yeah.
Fantastic.
Niall: I'll connect you after
this as well, because yeah,
don't talk great people in there.
Chris: amazing.
That'd be sweet.
Yeah.
Happy days.
Niall: Yeah.
So there you go.
Just so that's actually the plan
and I'm going to pretend I'm one
of the students and lose miserably
and be ashamed myself then.
Chris: I'm a joined myself.
Yeah,
Niall: Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
We'll team up and we can
be incompetent together.
Chris: Yup.
Happy to.
Niall: excellent.
You've recommended a couple of bits
of software Noloco by Simon and the
book The influential product manager.
So I'm wondering, what are your
favorite, well, we'll start
with, what is your favorite book
Chris: It has to be
Marty Cagan am inspired.
Well, there's two
actually has inspired and
empowered.
Niall: I have, where is that?
It's probably out on my kitchen table.
I have, if you had seen my
tattered copy of inspired, It is.
absolutely ravaged with notes and pen
marks and sticky notes and yeah, what
a, that's what I always tell people.
That's the gospel, right?
Chris: Uh, I was just about
to say, it's the Bible.
That is the Bible.
Like if you, if you don't read
anything else or understand anything
else just don't understand, or
you don't understand that book or
those two books and you're 99%.
Niall: If you have our own, like
a motel or anything, you can slip
them in instead of a Bible into
all the drawers and things and the
Chris: Yeah.
Our VP of engineering recently left to go
to you have to move countries basically.
So he couldn't stay
with us, unfortunately.
But he introduced me to to Marty and
when he joined us at the new company,
I asked him on LinkedIn, like, Hey, do
they do they preach the gospel of our
Marty there and where you're moving to?
He's like, oh, they will.
Oh, they will.
Don't you worry?
So, uh, yeah.
It's like, he's like, God,
like figure, I should say.
Niall: Yeah.
absolutely.
I'm absolutely like that.
That's one of those books I
read every few months as well.
I have a poet, an audio book and
physical copy and I've listened
to it and I read it on them.
Yeah.
It's I always give it away as well.
I'm always giving it to people.
I should order another batch
because I'm down to my last one.
Now again,
Chris: It's fantastic.
I think the it's an, it's the only
book I've ever been able to read again
and again, sorry, not the only book.
There's one other book I'd like to
read, but it's not product based
from Robert Green, 48 laws of power.
I think it's just a fantastically
Niall: haven't read that yet.
And you're one of the I've been
recommended at a lot as well,
so I'm definitely gonna put that
down as a another recommendation.
Chris: Yeah, I think was like, some people
take it too far, read it too, literally.
And try to use it as like a
tool to like manipulate people.
But it's more, it's more just an
insight into human psychology.
That's just really interesting
and like different power dynamics
that can happen anywhere, like
from war to workplace to wherever.
But yeah, sorry to come back to the
to Marty Cagan I can reread that book
and it's almost like I'll read it when
I'm on the way into the office here.
And it gets, it's like, uh, it's like, um,
it's like a palate cleanser for anything
else you're thinking about, just get
into product mode and you're like, cool.
I'm ready for work now.
It's like, whatever, it doesn't matter
what chapter you're listening to.
There's always something gold
there and in just 15, 20 minutes of
listening and you're like, yep, sweet.
I'm ready to go now.
So, yeah, that's my,
Niall: We're here at preaching.
I think we could do an article
just preaching about how
great Marty Cagan as well.
I loved the fact that the chapters
are like blog sized as well.
So you can get through a chapter and get
a complete piece of knowledge in a short
amount of time as well with no fluff.
So if people haven't read it and
you've actually, you're still
listening to us talk about this,
you should obviously get up book.
that's the number one outcome
from this whole podcast.
I think.
Chris: Yep.
Definitely.
Niall: 48 laws of power.
Funny enough, the both of these
books, uh, heavily recommended
by, I have a mentor, Clive Foley,
who I speak to nearly weekly about
product and he, again, he recommended
that I haven't got around to it.
So now I really have to cause
I've heard it's fantastic, but
Chris: get the audio book.
Niall: Yeah.
The audio book version.
Chris: Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't know who narrates it,
but the writer has a fantastic
voice and just, yeah, he's a,
it's just great to listen on.
Niall: I'll definitely
check that out then.
Easy to win.
I have a credit on audible, so I'll be
Chris: There you go.
Niall: There after.
Then, what is your favorite piece of
software that you're using every day?
Like I talked about, like,
I'm a big fan boy at a script.
People are probably sick of me mentioning
it under this kind of section of,
the podcast as well.
But what's your favorite tool or
thing you're nerding out about.
Chris: yeah.
I mentioned Miro earlier, I think Miro,
or just like just nailing it consistently.
I think it's a fantastic tool and I
think they do product really well.
I think they communicate product changes
and updates really well, and whenever
they make them they make them a lot.
So their pace of deliveries is
really interested in admirable or
not admirable enviable as well.
I love Figma.
I've been a huge proponent for Figma.
I remember having an internal
struggle with the design team in here.
Like I'm not a designer.
So I don't have any say, but I was
like, you know, Figma, really good.
I like Figma, uh, purely just for
prototyping really, but, uh, I might,
we manage to go with Figma in the end.
Um, I love notion.
I think notion is fantastic.
Um, I use it for, we actually flipped it.
She introduced me to notion I didn't,
I wasn't aware of it before I joined
three years ago, but I'll use that now
for everything personal as well as,
Niall: And I organized the
questions with you before this,
um, notion.
So, you know, I'm a huge fan as well.
It's basically my whole life is
sorted in there at the moment.
So I'm a huge fan boy on that.
as well.
Chris: Yeah.
Yeah.
I love it.
Um, what else?
The primary ones, Miro, Figma notion,
it's a bit sad that they're all
like professional things I do in
day-to-day nine to five, or I think
Niall: Yeah.
Well, that's the trouble when you love
what you do, isn't it that You actually
start to enjoy the tools that you use
when it makes your job a little bit.
So yeah, maybe we need hobbies,
Chris, I guess that's what it is.
Chris: Yeah I was going to
say, so I just on hobbies I was
trying to think what do I do?
And it's not work that I
use not use software for.
And the only thing I can think of
is go racing go-karts and there's
not the only software to do with
motor sport is just horrific.
And so that is, I do not
enjoy using that software.
it's actually
Niall: for you.
Chris: don't tempt me.
Don't you tempt me?
I'll do it flipped his hackathon.
Chris, why did you build
a, uh, a lap timer?
I prefer for flipped dish.
It's like, well, have it
should move into motor sport.
There's a lot of opportunity
Niall: Yeah.
We want us, we want to time to delivery
drivers to make sure they're having
a, a circuit experience when they're
delivering, you
know,
Chris: Yeah.
Rank the
Niall: you know, it's,
it's all about persuasion.
The angle you come at.
Chris: Yeah, a hundred percent.
Niall: Finally, I guess what's the plan
for Flipdish over the next 12 months?
I know your hiring lots wise.
Is there anything.
specifically call out on who you're
looking for anywhere I can help?
Absolutely.
This is your chance to, I know you've
probably flipped this loads already, but
I'm really interested in seeing where
we can put out a message for people
if they want to come and help you out.
Chris: Cool.
Yeah.
So I'm specifically hiring for product
roles and, but we're hiring across
everything lots of engineering roles.
So yeah, like a couple of months ago, we
just got that huge round of investment
from primarily led by 10 cents and a
couple of others like tiger capital.
And so there's huge growth happening.
And I would say anyone who's
just interested in flipped
ish, but maybe they don't see a
specific role that is applicable.
Just get in touch.
We've hired lots of people who just
made sense for the company, even though
at the time, we might not have made,
realized that the role made sense.
So I would say, yeah, even if you're
have a look at a careers page, obviously,
if there's a role that you think suits,
let me know and we can talk about it.
And, but even if there isn't,
please do get in touch on day.
If you think there's something you can
bring to flip dish, because there's a
lot of growth, eh, into numerous different
areas over the rest of the year that I
can't really talk about just yet, but
yeah, maybe one of those will fit you.
But yeah, probably I'm primarily on
the engineering and product side,
but across the whole like sales, I
actually just referred somebody in
for sales and they cross the line
they're due today, which is great.
So yeah, anything we're hiring
for all across the board?
I think we're targeting like 700
before the end of the year, but I'm
around like somewhere like 300 now.
So it's like pretty insane
Niall: Yeah.
That weekly, uh, who am I talking
to is about to get a lot worse.
Chris: yes.
Yes it is.
Niall: it's amazing.
I'll share the link in the show
notes of what everyone's or are you
taking those click on the show notes
to find all of that juicy stuff.
And then for you personally,
for us, where can people find.
Chris: I have a website@chrisdermie.com.
I blog about random stuff
every now and again.
And yeah, that's probably
the best place to, to get me.
I'm on Twitter at cderm, but I'm not
particularly active, but if you do give
me a shout I'll try to get back to you
on LinkedIn.
Of course.
Niall: Nice I will share
all of those places as well.
I found you through your blog and
medium, actually, I caught another
one Of your posts that I thought
was very interesting.
It just shows you even those
odd blog posts and things.
I always tell people it's great to
put it out there, cause you just never
know who you're going to meet through
Chris: Uh I've I've met some fantastic
people and then interacted with people on,
well, not even met, but just online met
people who just randomly read something.
I wrote somewhere that I didn't
even, I don't even remember writing.
But yeah, it's great.
You should by default, I think we should
be just working in public is a great way.
Niall: Absolutely.
And then you also get to meet
awful people like me as well.
Chris: Yeah.
Yeah.
Two sides of the coin, you know,
Niall: Yeah, no, it's been fantastic.
I'm really, I'm really excited to see
what happens to Flipdish in the future.
Obviously, one of the biggest
start-ups in Ireland at the moment
it's very exciting all around.
And if anything goes wrong with the
product, we know exactly who to blame now.
That's it
Chris: it's probably that
translations change I made.
Niall: exactly.
Thanks a million for the time, Chris.
It was a great chat.
Chris: No, thank you very much.
It was a pleasure.
Niall: I don't often get
to talk to product people.
So it's even more exciting to
get to chat with someone as
experienced and as awesome as Chris.
I hope you enjoy this episode half as much
as I did, because Chris is just awesome.
I love meeting people who are just
passionate about what they do.
I've left links to all his
socials in the show notes.
So please connect with them everywhere.
And if you know anyone who might
want to work with Flipdish, Chris
has left his referral link to me.
So you can click that little link down
there and you'll get a referral from him.
So that's always good to skip the queue.
If you've any questions or suggestions,
it's always easy to get me on LinkedIn or
Twitter, have a great week stay awesome.
And I'll talk to you soon.
If you enjoyed this episode,
I have a little favorite ask.
If you could leave the podcast a kind
review, it would really help the show out.
It appeases the algorithm gods
and helps me reach new people.
So I really appreciate it.
And until next time, my beautiful friends.
Keep learning and keep growing.