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Pinaki Kathiari & Chris Lee challenge traditional best practices in the workplace
Pinaki Kathiari (00:00)
Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Between the Seasons, the mini series from Why Does It Feel So Wrong to be Human at Work. I'm Pinaki, and we have with us our co-host and executive producer, Bree Bartos.
Bree Bartos (00:11)
Hi everyone.
Pinaki Kathiari (00:13)
And joining us for today's conversation is Lottie Bazley, internal communications manager So welcome back Lottie.
Lottie (00:20)
Thank you so much.
Pinaki Kathiari (00:22)
And as you know, today we're just jumping right into a work related Reddit post and we'll see what happens because Bree just tosses things at us and then we'll figure it out. So Bree, what do we have?
Lottie (00:33)
I'm very excited. I can't wait for this
one.
Bree Bartos (00:37)
Yes, so there's a lot of people on Reddit talking about communication at work, talking with coworkers, a lot of coworkers crossing boundaries and not knowing how to talk about it. I know in our previous episode we were talking about how to communicate more at work and now this comes a little bit opposite. This post comes from
r slash career guidance and is titled, how do I communicate to my micro managing manager that I don't want to be friends? Yes, so this story is four months old and reads, I used to get along really well with my coworker, but then he was promoted almost two years ago and became my manager. Our previous manager who still works with us, but at a higher level,
Lottie (01:12)
Ooh, spicy.
Bree Bartos (01:32)
never used to overstep, force any kind of team bonding, or try to butt into our personal lives, but this current one does. We work from home, he switched us from weekly meetings to daily, and spends the first few minutes every single day calling on people individually to talk about hobbies, things they post on social media, and other stuff that has nothing to do with work. It was cute for a while.
as he exhibited behaviors that seemed straight out of how to be a nice manager 101. But now it's just annoying. Things have been pretty stressful at the company lately and he's taking it out by micromanaging, forcing us to go over things together in meetings that maybe only one person needs to work on, making passive aggressive comments if he didn't like the way we did something and telling us what we need to do more of despite none of our salaries improving much.
Lottie (02:04)
you
Pinaki Kathiari (02:04)
You
Bree Bartos (02:28)
And when one of us expresses thoughts on something, he basically isn't willing to hear it if it doesn't align with his. When he's annoyed at the company, he has no problem expressing it. But when one of us starts complaining, he jumps to the company's defense. It gives me whiplash and makes it feel like only his feelings about things are valid. On top of all of this, he messages me throughout the day with basically his string of consciousness, things about his house, meals he cooked with his wife.
Lottie (02:54)
You
Bree Bartos (02:56)
His dog,
and then he presses me for these non-work related conversations all the time that I want nothing to do with. If you micromanage me in meetings every day, I do not want to be your friend. You don't get both. I tried replying with one word for a while, but he didn't get it. Then I switched to putting emojis on his message and he keeps pressing if it's not enough of a reaction.
Lottie (03:13)
You
Bree Bartos (03:21)
I finally stopped responding to my personal conversations because it feels like he's forcing me to engage and I don't feel like it's my job to make him feel less insecure about his management style by being his friend. I've been trying to leave this job since about the time he got promoted and unfortunately I'm stuck here for the meantime. I need to find a way to communicate that I have no interest in the virtual water cooler talk without making him hate me.
Lottie (03:51)
Wow, I mean, my very first reaction is like boundaries.
Pinaki Kathiari (03:52)
Wow.
Bree Bartos (03:57)
Yeah, he does not know him.
Pinaki Kathiari (03:57)
Wow.
Yeah, it does sound like that. You don't learn how to be a manager and it sounds like these were peers that suddenly kind of had a hierarchy shift and that changes the dynamics of a relationship. I think whenever anyone has that type of thing happen, is a moment to step back and be like, all right, how is this relationship changing due to these new hierarchical structures?
Lottie (04:01)
What's a boundary?
Mm.
Bree Bartos (04:15)
Mm-hmm.
Lottie (04:31)
It's funny actually when, so when I, back in the day when I first got into internal communications, we'd never had an internal comms person before. just kind of one day said, I'll look after the newsletter this afternoon. And then that's how I, how I got into comms. But we had these, like one of the first jobs that I kind of took over was we used to have these toolbox talks. We used to work with, my audience was kind of engineers who were out and about on the road, you know, kind of very hands-on job.
Pinaki Kathiari (04:46)
that.
Lottie (04:59)
so each month we used to have these toolbox talks where the team leader would get everyone together, you know, disseminate all the information, all the changes, et cetera, et cetera. and then the engineers would go back out on their way. and it was really the communication depending on who your team manager was, was really inconsistent. So like one team would come away and be like, cool, we understand everything. And then one team would come away and be like, I don't know what just went on here.
So I very naively went in there and was like, oh, it's a communications problem. Let me solve that. I can do that. And started this very generic and like I say, forgive me. This was, I was very naive. I was very early in my career. Generic, how to communicate with your team. And so we were kind of going around the room. I'd run this training session. It was probably completely useless to the most of them. And I'd sort of said, know, what issues do you have communicating with your team?
and like 90 % of the people said, we just got promoted to be a manager because we were really good at being hands on engineers. We're not managers and these are our peers and we've gone from, you know, if the manager does something annoying to having a little bitch about them or, know, if they disagree with the direction that the company is going in, they can talk to these people about it. And then all of a sudden this person is now your superior, but there's just that really difficult balance of how do we.
Bree Bartos (05:59)
Mm-hmm.
Lottie (06:20)
navigate this new relationship now and you know that was what was impacting their communication with each other and it sounds like this is kind of what's happened here where this person's been promoted doesn't know how to be a manager is trying to be best of both worlds but by the sounds of it it's clearly getting both wrong.
Pinaki Kathiari (06:37)
Yeah.
Yeah. There's a lot of emotions that come into being a manager and leader and stuff like that. And there's a lot of just your own kind of, I guess, feeling inadequate, especially kind of probably in this scenario. So I could understand from the manager's perspective. And I think when we're nervous or anxious, we do funny things. I think that's what happens. But then the tricky part is it's like now. Now what?
Lottie (07:01)
Mm-hmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (07:07)
and how do you approach it in that way? I'll shut up for a second, but, Bree, did you have a way that you would approach OP or how should OP handle this?
Lottie (07:07)
Yeah.
Bree Bartos (07:21)
You know?
Pinaki Kathiari (07:24)
Since I wanted to give you the surprise on that one.
Bree Bartos (07:26)
Yeah,
yeah, I was reading through like some of the comments on this post as well. And a lot of people are saying just start answering slower with sorry, juggling a lot today, need to focus on tickets anytime they try and initiate this like friendly conversation. And I guess like you could do that. But like,
Pinaki Kathiari (07:49)
Mm-hmm.
Bree Bartos (07:51)
then you're just like constantly training this person as if they're like a dog or a like, you know, like where you have to repeat the same like gesture over and over again, hoping that they'll start to connect the dots that like, hey, don't do this anymore. Yeah, and then that puts you in like an awkward spot.
Pinaki Kathiari (07:55)
Mm-hmm.
Lottie (07:56)
Mmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (07:58)
Yeah.
Lottie (08:02)
Mmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (08:05)
Yeah, and it's passive aggressive in and of itself, right? So you kind of handle passive aggressive.
Lottie (08:11)
And it's
like a bandaid on the, well, I don't know, said, will you say plaster in the UK? Now I'm with you. It's like a bandaid on the problem, right? Because you're not actually getting to the root of it. And it sounds like, guess, if these people were friends before the person became the manager, hopefully there's that level, at least they maybe could try and go back to the OP, could go and be like, hey, look, this is a new relationship for us. I get that, you know, this is new territory for you also. This is new territory.
Bree Bartos (08:15)
Yes.
Pinaki Kathiari (08:15)
Hahaha
Yeah.
Lottie (08:40)
for me because I've not been managed by a friend before and there's certain things that you're doing that coming in it with this person clearly has the best of intentions, right? It's not coming across great, but they're not deliberately trying to make people feel awkward or this person's just trying to do their best that OP could come in and say, hey, I get that you're trying to do your best. Here's the things that are working for me in this new relationship. Here's the things that are not working so well. How are you finding things? And just have that.
frank, honest conversation. And I think that will do a lot more good than putting a plaster on, you know, the situation.
Pinaki Kathiari (09:18)
Mm-hmm. Absolutely. think whenever I'm in this mode, I confront the situation because when you don't, it just gets bigger and uglier, faster and faster, especially the more dislike you have over the situation, the more you're going to show and then the more they're going to consciously or subconsciously see it and then double down on their side. And then you start becoming really clashing.
Bree Bartos (09:19)
Mm-hmm.
Lottie (09:29)
Mm-hmm
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (09:47)
So I think confronting
is the way to go about it. And I think first thing to do is just, I'm not suggesting that the OP is doing this, but in case they are, this is something that I do to myself or I have to say to myself is this other person is not doing this to me, but they're doing this for them. like just to couch my own
Lottie (10:09)
Mm.
Pinaki Kathiari (10:16)
mind to say that like, it's not that they're opposing me or coming at me or doing this to hurt me, just like you were saying earlier, they're doing it with the best of intentions, it's just happening to me. And then there's definitely, there's several books that I've been reading slash listening to on this topic, which I could recommend. But I think one of the core things comes when you're approaching the situation is that it just can't come across
Lottie (10:29)
Mm-hmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (10:45)
accusatory, because once you kind of come across in this, you do this, and I don't like that, it's the other person's defenses are automatically up and then you're not able to have a good dialogue. And I found a good way to approach it is by asking questions. Like, when this happened and you said this, like, what was going on through your mind? I'm kind of curious. And that kind of invites them to talk first. And then you might be able to express
Lottie (10:51)
Mm.
Pinaki Kathiari (11:15)
how you perceived that from your side, because what I saw or what I saw from the other folks was this is how it was perceived. And I think finally I'd say that the whole scenario or the whole relationship won't be fixed in like one talk. I think you're have to like break, there's so much going on, I think you might have to break it up into like little pieces and approach pieces or start from a whole and then kind of.
Lottie (11:33)
Mm.
Pinaki Kathiari (11:42)
break pieces. So I like your approach, Lottie, it was like, hey, let's get together. Let's talk about it. Let's kind of draw in from our friend's side to see if we could have an honest conversation. And maybe, you know, let's meet every so often just to check in and see how it's going so we can continuously adjust because the bottom line is we both want to help each other grow as opposed to be a hindrance of each other because this type of thinking is just a
Lottie (12:05)
Mm-hmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (12:12)
It's not a productive use of time and not good for your health anyway. I just said a lot.
Lottie (12:14)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then just one quick
Bree Bartos (12:16)
Mm-hmm.
Lottie (12:18)
thing. No, it's great. And actually, I just really wanted to highlight one of the things that you said there, which was about asking the person, hey, what was going through your head when this thing happened, as opposed to why did you do this? Because that then again, you're kind of, you're not accusing someone of doing something. You're just genuinely coming into that conversation to try and understand the logic behind it. So definitely coming in with that, like, hey, you know, what was going through your mind when you did that?
Bree Bartos (12:28)
Mm-hmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (12:29)
Mm-hmm.
Lottie (12:43)
did this as opposed to, why did you do this? That's a really key part of that.
Pinaki Kathiari (12:47)
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely. Like right now, OP, us, all the commenters, they believe they have a solution, right, for OP. But the solution is really between OP and the manager. And if OP is thinking that they have a solution without actually being curious enough to draw out what's going on in the manager's mind, then it's probably...
It's not that accurate, right? So it's a guest or an accusation. So without being genuinely curious to draw it out from them, you won't be able to come up with the best solution. I think. I'll take it.
Bree Bartos (13:24)
Yeah. I
do have some additional context here because OP was active in the comments. Very, very active. But as I was reading that, it was actually reminding me a lot of the conversation that we had in episodes 14 and 15 with Jen Samuel's about wearing too many hats and burnout. Because it sounds like on top of, you know,
Pinaki Kathiari (13:29)
Ooh.
Lottie (13:33)
Ooh.
Bree Bartos (13:50)
this manager expecting constant communication with this person on personal matters, they're being overworked and don't have time for it because they say in a comment here, where did it go? They say like on top of the responsibilities that they were hired for, they have had more and more work piled on top of them. So they have their regular duties. They're also a graphic designer, social media manager and on camera talent.
Lottie (13:59)
Mm.
Hmm.
Bree Bartos (14:20)
And
so they are very overworked and he, OP says, he is distracting me and wasting my time, not to mention pissing me off constantly by making me feel like I have to engage with him. I quite quit a long time ago and I started saying I can do X as long as Y is removed from my plate. So I really haven't been as involved, but I'm just forced to sit in on additional team meetings every week for another job focus.
Lottie (14:32)
you
Pinaki Kathiari (14:37)
Hmm.
Bree Bartos (14:49)
So I can understand why being in all these unnecessary meetings on top of having a full play, like it is very overwhelming and it kind of just sounds like this person is burnt out and they've unfortunately not had luck in the job market after two years of applying.
Pinaki Kathiari (14:51)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yikes. That actually makes things a little bit easier for OP in theory, because kind of talking about this, I have a problem of you kind of getting into like personal conversations with me. I think it's a waste of time. It's a little bit fuzzy and opinionated. However, the fact is that I just don't have enough time in the day to complete the tasks that have been assigned to me. Therefore, I have to remove this part is a very factual.
Lottie (15:05)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (15:35)
way to talk about it. so I, whenever I kind of go into any type of difficult conversation, they try to start with the factual stuff first, because those are easier to like work out. Like I can't change the laws of time or physics. So the factual stuff is easier to do.
Lottie (15:35)
Mm-hmm.
Mm hmm.
Yeah, entirely agree. And it's that, you you kind of have that backing of like the, it's not just, I don't want to hear about your wife or your dog or what you have for dinner because I simply don't care, or I find you annoying. It's that like, I don't have the mental capacity for this right now. And as my manager, here's how you know, you can help me, you know, rebalance that if you know, we want to chat about your wife and your dog and your dinner.
Pinaki Kathiari (16:01)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Lottie (16:19)
would love to, but I simply don't have the time for that right now. And again, as a manager, that is something that is their job is to make sure that their direct reports have a manageable workload. So it's not an unreasonable thing that someone would bring to their manager.
Bree Bartos (16:20)
Yeah.
Pinaki Kathiari (16:20)
Yes.
Bree Bartos (16:30)
Mm-hmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (16:34)
Absolutely.
Bree Bartos (16:34)
Yeah, Pinaki often
says if someone's workload's at 100%, they're already overworked because that leaves no room for anything else to pop up. Like, no conversations, no talking, no last minute priorities.
Lottie (16:43)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (16:49)
Yeah, if we didn't have that little bit of slack in between these episodes, we wouldn't have got to that like dope idea of internal comms Dungeons and Dragons game.
Lottie (16:58)
Exactly!
Bree Bartos (17:00)
And then, you know,
as I was reading this, I found a comment from OP that was exactly what you were saying, Lottie. They said, I really wish I could just tell my manager, hey, the daily meetings are already enough chatter for me and I just don't really have the social battery for the other stuff unless it's work related. But I just feel like anything is risking putting a target on my back. It's so frustrating wanting to further and advance your life and not being able to.
than having to deal with an asinine manager on top of it.
Pinaki Kathiari (17:26)
Mm-hmm.
Lottie (17:27)
You
Pinaki Kathiari (17:28)
Yeah. And that's where the relationship comes into play, right? Because if like, so if you're in this place of like, hey, I feel like if I say this, then my relationship is going to get hurt, then maybe you want to do a few little things to help strengthen that relationship before you dip into it or whatnot. And not in a fake way, but in a in a real way, because we have to make the other person feel comfortable. It's like the transition from status quo.
Bree Bartos (17:36)
Mm-hmm.
Lottie (17:47)
Mm.
Bree Bartos (17:49)
Yeah.
Pinaki Kathiari (17:56)
to, hey, I put a little bit of change into the equation. So think about that transition, even the manager would have to make for that. That might give you some context as to how to have the conversation. But right on, safety.
Bree Bartos (18:09)
Mm-hmm. think,
I think like what I'm getting from these comments, and it's really unfortunate because I'm sure a lot of people feel this way, OP kind of seems too scared to speak up in an age of mass layoffs and like, you know, getting a target put on your other back. That's from the comments. They keep repeating, I'm afraid to put a target on my back. I don't want to become the difficult employee that gets like, first, essentially.
Lottie (18:24)
Mm.
Pinaki Kathiari (18:24)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So I can say something to that too because so you know what I said, it's like, a manager is not doing it to you, right? And same way you're not doing it to the manager, right? You're doing it for a better both of us. So when you're kind of couching the whole conversation of like, this would help me, this would help you type of thing, try to think about it like, what can we do that's gonna help us all together, right? Because if you kind of start working towards a greater, let's get the team dynamic better.
Lottie (18:47)
Mm.
Bree Bartos (18:59)
Mm-hmm.
Lottie (18:59)
Mm-hmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (19:04)
and you actually become a part of that change and that positive movement, then you are replaceable. You turn into a super girl like Lottie.
Lottie (19:09)
Mm-hmm.
And as you say, it's that again, it's about how you come into that conversation. If you go in and be like, hey, these messages are pissing me off. I don't have the capacity for it. I'm overworked. Leave me alone. Likely hit a target, it's getting put on your back. But if you go in and say like, hey, I just really want to be as productive as I can be. And I want to help you as much as I can help you. And let's figure this out together. Just automatically that is a better way of, you know, framing that.
Pinaki Kathiari (19:24)
Mm-hmm.
Lottie (19:44)
that conversation.
Pinaki Kathiari (19:44)
Absolutely.
Find the win-win scenario here. Well, you know what? I know we could talk about this for a while and I've taken up a lot of Supergirl's time. I'm sorry, Lottie. A lot of your time. So thank you so much again for joining us today. This was just a great conversation. Before we wrap up, Lottie, maybe one more time if you could share where people could find you and your brilliant wisdom.
Lottie (19:47)
Mm-hmm.
Thank you so much. I will take the brilliant wisdom.
please feel free to join up with me on LinkedIn.
Bree Bartos (20:15)
and will have all of Lottie's links in the episode description, so definitely check her out.
Pinaki Kathiari (20:19)
Excellent. Thank you, Bree. Thank you, Lottie. And thank you to our listeners for tuning into this week's Between the Seasons from Why Does It Feel So Wrong to be Human at Work. And be sure to follow, subscribe, and for wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. We'll be back next week with another episode.
Lottie (20:33)
Thank you.
Bree Bartos (20:36)
Bye everyone.
Pinaki Kathiari (20:38)
Thank you.