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In each episode of Sustainability Insiders, Kevin Hegarty speaks to business leaders to find out how they're making their companies more sustainable. In season two, Camilla Smith, from specialist sustainability recruiter Sustii, shares what candidates and employers are looking for in this fast‑growing talent marketplace. Ian O’Donnell MBE, from the Federation of Small Businesses, talks about the challenges - and opportunities - small businesses face in operating sustainably. And one of the sector’s standout leaders, Mary Aladegbola, breaks down how she navigates net-zero challenges across NHS England. Other guests include ESG lead Ewan Donald from engineering business Ipsum, and Graham Duxbury, Chief Executive of Groundwork. Hopefully each of their stories will inspire you on your sustainability journey, and give you the ideas and tools you need to make your own company more sustainable in the very near future.
Hi, and welcome to Sustainability Insiders, the podcast that talks to business leaders to find out how they're making their companies more sustainable. I'm Kevin Hekety and I work at Cadent, a UK energy network that's on its own sustainability journey. In this episode, I'm joined by Mary Aladabulla, senior Net Zero technical energy lead at NHS England. In our chat she tells me about the scale of the challenge at the NHS around sustainability, why a whole systems approach matters, and she gives me her practical advice for sustainability leaders. Mary welcome to Sustainability Insiders the podcast.
Mary Aladegbola:Fantastic, thanks Kevin, thanks for having me.
Kevin Hegarty:Oh you're welcome. The organisation you work for NHS England is so well known in The UK, the National Health Service and such a big organisation in the public sector. Can we first of all talk about the nature of the challenge that presents itself to an organisation as large as NHS England when we're talking about sustainability?
Mary Aladegbola:Yes. That's a good place to start. I typically like to start from the beginning and just introduce people to just the diversity and the scale of the NHS estate. My remit within the NHS is really around estate decarbonization, energy use. And like I said, it's a diverse estate.
Mary Aladegbola:It's essentially a small country across thousands of sites. We're talking from acute hospitals, community sites, GPs, primary care, all of which have different energy profiles and different levels of what's required in terms of resilience, meeting patient need, all of which run on twenty four seven. So it is quite a complex site from that perspective, if you can imagine. And for us as an organization, I think where we've started is in terms of addressing that scale of the challenge was to start by building a clear data driven baseline. The NHS baseline, hopefully, would not be a surprise to anybody.
Mary Aladegbola:We have 4% of the nation's carbon emissions. And like I said, we are operating across thousands of sites. So what we have done is to understand where our emissions come from. And whilst I look after building energy, we've also mapped our emissions across travel, medicines, and aesthetics, and across our supply chain as well, all of which supports our clinical activity. And that complexity has allowed us to start to map out the challenge so that we can then begin to look out the prioritization of it as well.
Mary Aladegbola:Because when you look at that and what's that allows us to think about what's technically feasible, what's fundable, what aligns with our clinical risks, and where there are opportunities for early wins. So that's pretty much has been our starting position to date. But beyond that, we've also been successful in using that benchmarking data to triangulate other data sources like funding gaps, the heat decarbonization timelines and trajectories that we need to operate to, what the electrical capacity demand needs to be for us to achieve our decarbonization targets, what our low carbon energy options are, and the role that grid plays within that as well. And it's important to do all of that because the real challenge isn't just the technology. It's coordinating decisions across such a huge system whilst keeping our patient care uninterrupted.
Mary Aladegbola:And coordinating this is where strong governance that we have as an organization, good data, and realistic phasing has come in for us. So that's pretty much has been our starting position in rising to the challenge and where I think some of our successes has lied to date.
Kevin Hegarty:And spread so far apart from Newcastle up in the North Of England to all the way down to the South Coast, how do you manage to showcase and share best practice across different geographies within quite a wide footprint, Mary?
Mary Aladegbola:I think some of what we've done around practice is it's important to say for us, we find that good practices are coming from every part of the system, and so every trust that moves forward becomes a case study for the rest of the system. And we're seeing that as we're using that to build real momentum across the system. And what we have is a good ecosystem across trust. We've got things like regional delivery groups and other opportunities for knowledge transfer, which are essentially the forums that we use to share good practice in a very dynamic way. Because historically, case studies typically sit within a PDF document that's been written, and nobody looks at it again.
Mary Aladegbola:But what I find is that by having those regional delivery groups like I mentioned and and having an innovative way to digitally record and not just record, but also keep our case studies alive, it's been quite an agile way to communicate good practice across the rest of regions. The trusts are quite good at speaking to one another, so we have a good ecosystem and a good network of not just sustainability leads, but as of estates and people who work across the sustainability spectrum who are speaking to one another in a dynamic way, and that's one of the ways that it's above and beyond what gets done traditionally around case study and sharing knowledge, so that's been quite good for us.
Kevin Hegarty:It's mind boggling to think isn't it when you describe the NHS England as a small country in its own right and albeit and taking great strides but still contributing 4% of the nation's carbon emissions and you've done so much great work in this space but what interests me is that again is that the health care just cannot have any downtime, can it, in terms of energy. Just let's get us on to the simple aspects of that from a hospital's perspective, for example. It just needs to run and have energy twenty four seven, doesn't it?
Mary Aladegbola:Yeah. 100%. You're right. In many ways, we're running complex building decarbonization programs and have to do it without ever switching the lights and the heating off. So resilience is definitely nonnegotiable for us.
Mary Aladegbola:But the way that we approach this is really thinking through. We do have technical guidance already, which underpins what our resilience needs to be as an organization anyway. So we do have good resilience in terms of infrastructure. But when you start thinking about decarbonization, you know, that whole energy infrastructure starts to shift a little bit. And the way that we've done is to think about it from a whole systems approach, and that means we map how power hits backup generation, digital infrastructure, and how we plan upgrades or work in a phased way that never puts the care of patients at risk.
Mary Aladegbola:And what do I mean by that? For us, what all system planning looks like in practice is really around mapping three critical aspects, which is, like I mentioned, mapping the critical systems, integrating sustainability into existing governance, and thinking about it through a phased transition. And what we've done is to integrate that into what we call a heat decarbonization plan, which we've asked all of our trusts to prepare. So what most of our trusts are more than half of the thousand of sites that I mentioned have actually, that's about maybe 40%. I shouldn't say half.
Mary Aladegbola:We still have a way to go. But what they've done is to map those critical systems and power heat ventilation backup, digital infrastructure really to understand how they interact. For example, electrifying heating systems will increase electrical demand, so we need to understand whether grid connection and backup systems can support that safely and understanding, again, how we integrate those into existing governance to mean that things like clinical risk register, estate's life cycle planning, procurement processes, financial planning frameworks are all considered and integrated into that plan because I like to say that this is important because sustainability of decarbonization cannot sit on the side. It needs to be embedded from design to delivery. And then thirdly, it's thinking about how we do those upgrades as part of a phased transition, not just as one of projects themselves.
Mary Aladegbola:And that often means running parallel systems during transition periods is what some of trust has done or introducing backup measures during those or sequencing work around clinical operations, which can be quite complex in itself, but it's what we've successfully done through things like the public sector decarbonization scheme, which the NHS has been quite successful in that grant funding from the central government, and we've got about 1,400,000,000.0 of that funding across our system, which we've deployed in the last few years. And I think that probably brings me to another aspect, which is quite important in this context and which is funding, really. What we've also been able to do is, as part of that long term in process, think about integrated funding as an essential part of that because decarbonization doesn't necessarily fit neatly neatly into traditional budget lines. So we don't want to continue to chase fragmented pots of money. We wanna be in a position where we're blending capital, grant funding, and where appropriate alternative investments to underpin a long term transitionary plan.
Mary Aladegbola:So that's one of the ways that we've been approaching thinking about this in a strategic way so that we're building that strategic pipeline. We're understanding where the bottlenecks are, and we're treating energy upgrades, plant replacement, digital controls, and estate rigs altogether as part of an integrated complex estate and treating that in a way that allows us to support phase delivery over multiple years, which is really essential when you're thinking about life clinical environment. So for for the NHS, this approach not only strengthens clinical resilience, but it also reduces our own risks as well and ensuring that we can get the benefits out of our projects. So it's really around whole systems approach and thinking about how we design not just for emissions reduction but for deliverability.
Kevin Hegarty:Well you've used the phrase whole systems approach there which is like music to the ears of someone like myself who hears that a lot and the phrase used a lot whole systems approach and I'm also interested in the fact that you all would as well as having your primary sources of energy, you're looking at all the different options that might come your way both now and in the future with regards to secondary sources, and what stage is it the NHS England at in terms of looking at those different potential future sources of energy?
Mary Aladegbola:Yeah. That's a good question. Putting together heat decarbonization plans, and as part of doing that, what each trust has been successful in doing is looking at the low carbon energy sources in proximity to their sites. The traditional route to decarbonization, obviously, it's chiefly electrification, but that could come through a number of routes, including ground source heat pump technology, air source heat pump technology, but also what something that's playing a big part in our transition is heat networks. And we do know that some of our trust will as part of zoning regulations, which we're expecting in the next year or so, We know that some trust will be in proximity to some of these low carbon heating sources, and in some instances, it is the best source of decarbonization for them.
Mary Aladegbola:So it's really starting to have those early engagements with that. And, yes, like you rightly said, we know that there is a small number of places across the country where potentially some of our trust will be in hydrogen pipeline. And, again, those trusts are starting to look at what does that look like for them. We have spent a lot of time in planning, and I think that also underpinned some of the program success that we've had with things like the PSCS funding parts as well. Because we found that for those trusts who have been able to put those heat decarbonization plans together, understand what the early enabling works needs to be and what the whole life cost would look like for them, especially where they've got end of life heating systems, those have been able to move quicker than those who haven't been able to move.
Mary Aladegbola:And that's one of the things that we're starting to look at more holistically now. Thankfully, a lot of the DNOs are starting to release a bit more data around grid capacity in the medium to longer term. And what we're doing again is mapping our requirements in terms of transitioning some of the heating systems that we have, like our boilers or CHPs against these technologies that we think will play a role in those areas and how much electrical capacity we're going to require to support that. So there is I think I say all of that to emphasize a planning that's played a huge part in how we think about our transition.
Kevin Hegarty:Now Mary, I think you know that the audience of this podcast is predominantly people who one way or another will be working in the sustainability space as a sustainability manager or whatever the job title may be. As someone who is who has now worked in this field for a long time, do you have some top tips for people who are maybe, I don't know, whatever stage of the sustainability journey they are on? There's things that you must make sure that you've always got in your mind as you're building your sustainability strategy for your organization.
Mary Aladegbola:I think for us, and definitely for me, the three core lessons that I've learned and I think applies anywhere, not just in health care estates. And like any good energy manager would know, the key starting position is data. So you really need to start with your data, question it, because good decisions rely on good data. So that means making sure that you understand not just your energy infrastructure, but that your energy consumption data is accurate, metering coverage is strong, and you just understand that asset base that you've got to decarbonize. Because what we know is that if that data is inconsistent or incomplete, your whole strategy is flawed, and, potentially, your CapEx and your ensuing OpEx, it's also at risk from the perspective of you can be over egging what you may require or underestimating what you may require.
Mary Aladegbola:So what we've been quite strong on is understanding our baseline and strengthening that the NHS has had a good data from our ERIC database. And some of what I've done since I've been in the role is to strengthen some of that data to understand where, like I said, some of the bottlenecks are likely to be introduced in things like electric capacity and the data that we require for electric capacity into it, the timelines that we require for decarbonizing our heating systems into that as well. So that data has been quite good for us to also start to build a pipeline, and pipeline, as you know, underpins investment decisions as well. So, yeah, data is definitely a good place to start and is definitely the place to start. But beyond that, it is building partnerships early because you cannot spreadsheet your way to net zero.
Mary Aladegbola:You need the people, the partnerships, and a shared sense of purpose as well. I talked about early around the regional delivery group meetings that we have, which we use to not only share knowledge, case studies, good practices, but we also use that to test assumptions and also to understand, again, where the bottlenecks are for some of the trust and how we can help support or direct some of that. Because, ultimately, no organization can deliver net zero alone. And within those kind of groups, we have things like the estates teams, and in some instances, we have finance within that and clinicians who contribute to the discourse around our transition for decarbonization. But externally as well, we're strengthening our partnerships with local authorities, DNOs, because we know that the stronger that collaboration and coalition, the smoother the delivery.
Mary Aladegbola:So we've got really good traction going in there. And I think finally shifting the conversation from compliance to underpinning it with that risk management framework. Because I feel when people see net zero as resilience and cost stability, you start to see some real momentum there. What we don't want people to do is continue to see sustainability as a tick box exercise because then they do the minimum. But when you frame it under that risk management framework in terms of reducing your exposure to energy, price market volatility, modernizing your assets, and modernizing your data and getting it ready for the opportunities that you can get from things like AI, machine learning, and predictive maintenance.
Mary Aladegbola:All of that also has an impact on improving reliability, reducing backlog. So then the conversation becomes a bit more strategic and not optional, and we're starting to see that some of the areas where we're building momentum and able to engage leadership as well because decarbonization is also a leadership challenge, and we do need the support of that leadership to to to create that clarity in terms of narrative on direction of travel, consistency, and conditions for teams to thrive and deliver. So yeah, those would be my three key points.
Kevin Hegarty:What a brilliant three points they are, and thank you for sharing those. So before we end the podcast, I just wondered if there was any particular examples of good practice that you wanted to share of an individual project perhaps that you wanted to showcase and spotlight and talk to us through, that might benefit somebody else in another sector, another organisation, and think, hey, I hadn't thought of dealing with it that way.
Mary Aladegbola:Yeah I could cite probably one or two. Queen's Medical Centre, for instance, in Nottingham is one place that we know that we've done really impressive work in upgrading our energy centre, installing heat pumps, improving building fabric, and just reducing the emissions of the sites, but also improving patient comforts as well. And it's impressive what they've done. And what they've done shows what's possible when technical ambition meets strong leadership because the success of that project, which is one of the largest PSCS funded projects, has been good planning, but also strong leadership has been quite key for them as well. One of what we've seen been demonstrated in that kind of project is the long term strategic partnership that they've got with their energy performance contract provider who deeply understood site complexities, helped to build a robust business case for for the projects that that that did eventually get funded on the PSDS, but also continuity of their state's leadership because the carbonization expertise is embedded for them both across the senior and operational levels as well.
Mary Aladegbola:And we see really good cross departmental collaboration between their projects team, their estate and operations, and their energy management teams. And what that has done is helped them to pull together a strong decarbonization project, which is a multiyear decarbonization project as well, which has been quite impressive to see. So they require years of investments in building relationships, technical understanding, trust between organizations and suppliers. And we definitely are seeing that those are especially those multiyear type projects help us to get away from short termism, which I typically say is the enemy of successful decarbonization delivery. So I think that's one really good example that I like to highlight just because it incorporates more than just one aspect because people tend to think about decarbonization just from funding barriers and technical barriers, but there's a whole host of other success enablers, which is a key enabler of this.
Mary Aladegbola:Hopefully, of the listeners can do a quick Google search. You should be able to see a lot on that project as well. Yes. So that's one that I think is worth highlighting.
Kevin Hegarty:Oh, thank you, Mervi. You've shared so much wonderful insight during the course of this podcast, and I think people will take a lot of learning from it. Then in particular, your three key points around data partnerships and shifting from considering this as being compliant. It's more it's clearly more than that. I don't know why, but I particularly liked your line that said, you cannot spreadsheet your way to net zero, and how true is that?
Kevin Hegarty:So Mary, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast.
Mary Aladegbola:No worries. Thank you for having me.
Kevin Hegarty:Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed this episode of Sustainability Insiders, please give the show a follow and a review in your podcast app. You'd like to be a guest on a future episode, send an email to media.relations@cadentgas.com. Speak to you again soon.