PJ (00:03.462)
Hello and welcome to Chasing Leviathen. I'm your host PJ Weary. I'm here today with Dr. Carlos Sanchez, professor of philosophy at San Jose State University. And we're talking about his book, Blooming in the Ruins, How Mexican Philosophy Can Guide Us Toward the Good Life. Dr. Sanchez, wonderful to have you on today.
Carlos Sanchez (00:22.524)
Thank you for the invitation. Thank you for having me.
PJ (00:25.418)
Dr. Sanchez, why this book?
Carlos Sanchez (00:29.16)
Well, I think that the main reason for this book is because I've always wanted to write something that was not 100 % academic, but at the same time that was useful or at least that it meant something to me that was related to the stuff that I know a little bit about. And I was given the opportunity to do that just that.
just exactly that, what I always wanted to do, to write a book for a general audience that talked about the stuff that I've been thinking about for the last two decades. So that's the main reason, the main reason as to why this book, but also because I think that Mexican philosophy is interesting and has interesting things to say.
PJ (01:22.022)
You kind of give a little bit of a personal history at the beginning. One, because of your, what you believe is a commitment on Mexican philosophy's side to embodiment, but it sounds like that's part of your own methodology is to have that, an embodied philosophy. And so part of that story is you talk about the move from studying Husserl and his phenomenology to Portilla. Am I pronouncing it correctly?
Tell me a little bit about what that movement was like for you personally.
Carlos Sanchez (01:58.47)
Well, that, you know, telling that story kind of requires for me to go back a little bit further into the biography. And that has to do with growing up in a situation where I didn't know anything about philosophy. know, like there were no books in my house. And then the high school that I went to was in the greatest high school, right? They didn't have the resources that some other high schools had.
PJ (02:04.624)
Go for it.
Carlos Sanchez (02:26.984)
I came to the States very late, you know, relatively speaking. And so I didn't really start learning English until I was in my teens. So for those reasons, you know, this idea of being a philosopher or studying philosophy or sitting around a circle and talking about big ideas was never part of my trajectory.
Once I went to college, I discovered philosophy through my general education courses. And I remember taking a class where this one of my professors who happened to be an African American professor walked me into his office. And he said to me, do you know how many Mexican or Mexican American philosophers there are?
And I said, no. And he says, neither do I. But I'm pretty sure that it's closer to zero than closer to 10. And I thought that's an interesting thing to tell me. Right. Because that wasn't my major. My major was advertising. Right. I wanted to get out into the world and make some money. So I majored in advertising. I finished that. And then I decided once I started to work in the actual
field of advertising that I didn't like it. I didn't like what it was doing to me or I didn't like what it was forcing me to think or I just didn't like the whole rigmarole of trying to sell something, right? Trying to sell something like newspaper space or whatever. I didn't like it.
PJ (04:12.892)
Forgive me, forgive me. I feel like because people who do listen to the podcast, regular, I I'm not trying to trap Dr. Sanchez here. My day job is digital marketing. So I feel your pain. We have actually had very specific conversations about like there are certain things we will not do because it is. Yeah, it's soul sucking. It could definitely. I just I felt like I should give some context.
Carlos Sanchez (04:38.588)
Yeah, yeah, I'm talking to the right guy because you know, like I felt that and I felt it so hard. You know, I came from a very poor family. So I my my options were to get a good job or to be poor. but I felt I felt the push away from advertising so strongly that I ended up in philosophy. Right. And once I was in philosophy, I
PJ (04:49.18)
Mmm.
PJ (04:55.9)
Mm.
Carlos Sanchez (05:07.284)
I went through some experiences there too, where there was this one particular experience that I haven't talked about this in all these interviews that I've done, but I wasn't a philosophy guy. I wasn't a philosophy bro. But I was taking this course on Plato's Republic. And it was a master's level course. And I remember this professor,
It was a small class and I wrote a paper for this class and he did not like it. But he didn't like it to the extent that he went to other faculty members and said, this guy shouldn't be in this program. Like this guy shouldn't be studying philosophy. Like what is he doing here kind of thing, right? Well, that instead of really discouraging me and throwing me into panic and despair, it
It motivated me. Like I thought, well, you know, I'm going to not only do this, but I'm going to do the hardest, do this the hardest way I can. And to me, that was studying phenomenology, studying the Husserl phenomenology, studying this incredibly hard to grasp philosophy and method and in Germany, even that I, you know, I was, it was completely foreign to me, but I decided to do that.
And I liked it. I liked phenomenology. I liked what it was doing. So I went and I did my PhD at the University of New Mexico on Husserl and I did the whole thing. I jumped through all the hoops. But that conversation that I'd had with that professor about me asking me how many Mexican philosophers there were never left my brain. And
When I got close to finishing the dissertation, when I was about to turn it in, I wanted to write like this chapter that kind of tied everything together, you know? And one of the things I wanted to say in this chapter was, Hoosieros Phenomenology is influential all over the world, including in these places that you wouldn't think of like Mexico, right? That's what I wanted to say. But I couldn't say it because there was not a lot of research in that.
PJ (07:23.259)
Mm-hmm.
Carlos Sanchez (07:30.448)
I found some papers mostly in Spanish talking about Husserl, but nothing in English talking about Husserl's impact in Latin American philosophy or to Latin Americans as a whole. And that was really discouraging, right? But it was then that I found the book that had the title Phenomenology on it. It was in Spanish. It was by a Mexican guy. And I thought, you know, this is I should include this. I didn't do it. I didn't include it because it didn't
didn't fit with what I was doing at the end of this dissertation. But as soon as I turned in the dissertation, I handed it in. paid seventy five dollars to get it processed and everything. And and I and I literally walked two blocks to this bar that was in Albuquerque called the Copper Lounge. And I walked into the Copper Lounge and I ordered my usual beer. And and and I sat with that book that Fenomenología del Relajo. It was this book in Spanish. And I thought to
to myself, I'm going to change that problem that I had. The problem was that I couldn't find anything in English. I'm going to try to work so that it doesn't happen to someone else. And so that's what I started to do. I started to just focus on Mexican philosophy, focus on this particular one book, trying to understand it, trying to see what the guy was doing, translating it, know, writing little pieces here and there about it. And
And so the transition was fairly smooth, right? Because I had already exhausted my brain power on this hoosier guy. So now I kind of, I was jumping into this other thing and it was easier to maneuver. So I was lucky enough to get a job where I'm at now where they were very encouraging of me, continue to pursue this interest. And so, yeah, I've been doing that ever since and it was smooth, it was smooth transition.
PJ (09:04.572)
.
PJ (09:28.694)
you kind of stuck with, and that's Portilla, right? And have you stuck mainly with Portilla, or have you kind of branched out further into Mexican philosophy?
Carlos Sanchez (09:31.09)
Yeah.
Carlos Sanchez (09:38.6)
Well, that's another interesting story that needs to be told, right? think that... So I found this book, it was Portillas, Fenomenorgia del Relajo. I translated it, I did all these things. And what I didn't know was that he was part of a community, right? That he was part of a moment in the history of Mexico. I didn't know this. I just thought, this guy wrote this weird book about this particular thing that we might talk about in a little bit.
PJ (09:42.427)
Yeah.
Carlos Sanchez (10:08.356)
But I was I thought, OK, this is interesting that he's that he's writing this. So then I decided that I was going to write a book about this. And I got some grants and I went to Mexico City and met up with some folks at the Institute for Philosophical Investigations there. And I was sitting in the office talking to to my colleague from Mexico City's name was Guillermo Hurtado. And I was telling him about what I was interested in doing, that I wanted to write a book on.
and this whole moment of Mexican philosophy. And he said, well, did you know that they were all part of this group called the Hyperion group? And they were all active in the 1940s and 1950s. And they did all these different things. And then I said, well, can I talk to them? Are they still around? And he said, they're mostly dead. There's one guy who's alive.
And he's coming down the hall that he was literally walking down the hall. He says that's him right there. That's the last guy that's surviving from that group. And I go, Jesus. And that was Luis Villoro. So then he will go and introduces me to Villoro. And, you know, I get to check his hand and talk to him for a little bit. But that's when I when this whole world was open to me that this guy wasn't just an isolation, right? He was part of this movement, part of this generation of philosophers.
in the 1940s who had their own little group of thinkers and they were mostly swayed and influenced by Husserl and Heidegger and existentialism and phenomenology. And it was a glorious little moment in the history of thought. And so ever since then, I've been meddling with not only Portilla, but Luis Villoro and these other figures that were part of that group, including Emilio Uranga.
And so I've been writing about these figures, the different members of this group for the last 18 years now, because, you know, it's inexhaustible. There's so much to write to say that.
PJ (12:20.236)
Absolutely. That's one of the joys of philosophy. Random question. Why the Hyperion group? Why were they called the Hyperion group? Do know?
Carlos Sanchez (12:26.92)
Mm-hmm.
Carlos Sanchez (12:31.672)
Well, I think that the real reasons are lost to history, But the guys who talk about it say that they named themselves after the Titan god Hyperion, who was the god of the sun and the moon or something like that in Greek mythology. And the real reason I think has to do more with arrogance, right? This idea that...
PJ (12:36.815)
Okay. Yeah.
PJ (12:59.887)
Hahaha
Carlos Sanchez (13:00.456)
Here you are, you're a bunch of young dudes, you know, trying to revitalize philosophy in a country that is not really known for it. And they believe that they were bringing in light into the culture, right? They really thought that they themselves were the bringers of the day into this dark continent, dark world.
And so I think that's why I think that's a real reason right it was like this prideful kind of arrogance youthful prideful arrogance that you know, we're gonna baptize ourselves Hyperion and We're gonna live forever and it was a very momentary moment, right? I mean these guys the production time for these guys was four years from 1948 to 52 they existed and did all did all these Things trying to get to the bottom of what it meant to be Mexican
What does it mean to be a Mexican human being in the world today? Right. And so they spent four years kind of working on this after 1952, you know, from the way we get in the history and everything, it seems that they gave up the project. They realized that it wasn't going the way they wanted it to, or it was not what they envisioned it to be, or it wasn't successful in some way.
Anyways, they kind of spread out after that and did their own thing.
PJ (14:26.844)
As you're writing about Mexican philosophy, you organize it, it looks like there's a couple different ways, but you give kind of three major themes that you see in Mexican philosophy. One is the emphasis on embodiment, on circumstance. The other one is the very intimate and defiant relationship with colonialism. And then the last one, which
Immediately, I mean, you started by talking about your class in Greek philosophy. A lot of Socratic overtones here, but self-knowledge, autonosis, this idea of knowing oneself. Do you mind walking us through those three themes?
Carlos Sanchez (15:17.032)
Sure, I think that this idea that circumstance and autognosis, they're part of a project of self-awakening. And so what do mean by that? I mean that...
So Mexican philosophy, I mentioned this in the book, right? The very first class in philosophy in the Americas took place in Mexico, in Tiripitl. There was a small course in 1540 held by a monk talking about Aristotle. And so philosophy came to the Americas and began there.
But then for the next 400 years, you had philosophy existing in Mexico and other places in Latin America, just as an echo of European philosophy, right? They were just echoing that. Now, a couple of things happened in the 19th and 20th century that were very important for Mexican history. The first was Mexican independence.
broke off the chains with Spain and became independent. Now, you know, if we think about independence as it happens to us, right, as it happens to human beings, we think of, you know, you become independent and all of a sudden you're free, right? You're free to do whatever you want. At least that's the ideal, right? That's what we imagine. I think that's what my kids think that's going to happen, right?
As soon they become independent, they can do whatever the hell they want. I remember when I was a kid and I thought, you know, when I'm when I'm not living at home and I'm having my own job, I'm going to be I'm going to eat four Big Macs every time I go to McDonald's because I could afford it. Right. So so this idea of independence comes along is tied to this idea of freedom and doing whatever it is that you want. In the same way, I think that that's what Mexican culture was heading towards, this idea that, OK, we're independent, we're going to be free.
Carlos Sanchez (17:44.328)
free of all these ties. But unfortunately, that's not the way the world is, right? And you become independent, quote unquote, independent, but you're still tied to your parents, your community. You're still tied to rules, to sanctions, right? Things that you can and cannot do. And so that's what happened to Mexican culture in the 19th century, that they found themselves independent, but then they didn't really know what to do with themselves, right?
PJ (17:48.444)
Hmm.
Carlos Sanchez (18:11.528)
So what happens is that they began to, or they once again went back to Europe to try to find guidance. They went to France and Germany to try to find the philosophical consciousness that would help them grow up, right? Well, this only led into these bad paths, right? These Mexican-American War, the French invasion, know, all familiar with Cinco de Mayo, you know, all these different things.
But it ultimately led to the dictatorship, right? This guy became president and then he served as dictator for the next 30, 40 years. In the meantime, when he was doing that, he realized that the best way to bring Mexicans into the modern age was to scrub the educational programs of the country and reinvigorate them with
French positivism, right? To make Mexicans into scientists or scientifically minded people so that, you technology could blossom and grow and stuff. Well, this didn't work very well because, you know, Mexican people were not, you know, the educational reforms were taking place in these rural areas where these kinds of things are not anchoring themselves, right?
And by and large, you know, the Mexican culture at that time was rural and there was a lot of people that still believed in ancient ways living in mysticism and so forth, right? And so it didn't really work. So at the beginning of the 20th century, you have a movement, the very first movement of Mexican philosophy that's properly Mexican really is this anti-positivist movement. Like these guys got together in the 1906s, 1907s and
and formed a group of philosophers. call themselves the Ateneo de la Juventud, or the Athenium of Youth. And these guys were like, you know, screw positivism. You know, we have to bring back metaphysics and bring back aesthetics and bring back all these different things. So that was the very first thing. But unfortunately, that hit a roadblock real quick because you had the Mexican Revolution that began in 1910.
Carlos Sanchez (20:35.464)
And the Mexican Revolution was a second moment here in this history that I'm trying to tell because it lasted for 10 years and many, people died. And after the revolution, you had a moment of reckoning. Like, OK, so why are we fighting each other? Why can't we grow up? Why can't we survive independently? What's wrong with us? What's going on? So there's these questions about
PJ (20:42.972)
Hmm.
Carlos Sanchez (21:05.116)
who we are, what does it mean to be us? What does it mean to have the history that we have began to surface, right, after that. And so when these philosophers began to write about the question, what does it mean to be Mexican? They had to take into account their history and their circumstance, right? We cannot ignore the fact that we were products of a conquest, a colonization.
independence, revolution, and so forth. We can't ignore that. So we have to take that trauma into account. So circumstance becomes vitally important for any consideration of what it means to be Mexican. And also for philosophy, like if I'm going to have any big ideas, any big ideas are going to help shape identity or culture or the movement of history, it has to be rooted in the fact that I'm a Mexican or the fact that we are a community that's rooted in trauma.
PJ (22:02.62)
Hmm.
Carlos Sanchez (22:03.342)
and victory and catastrophe and overcoming, right? So that's the first thing. And I think that it goes hand in hand with auto-gnosis, right? This idea that, yeah, absolutely with, you know, the project is going to be to know ourselves. We have to know who we are. And so I think that that's, you know, that's exactly where these two things kind of.
meet up, especially the circumstance and the autognosis thing. So yeah.
PJ (22:37.73)
Well, thank you so much for a really great answer.
I mentioned in passing that it has Socratic overtones, because of course, if anyone has read any Western philosophy, you're going to think, know yourself. But when I hear you talk, what I hear is a very different form of self-knowledge, because Socrates came from a very privileged place. Like, he was allowed to... You talk about someone who spends his whole day going around asking people annoying questions.
That's someone who has a lot of free time on his hands. Like, this is a very different thing than someone. Athens was not conquered. And so the this kind that's where I think you can describe them in similar terms, but they're not the same thing. Like, I think you could talk about the Socratic self-knowledge as self awakening. But his forms of self awakening are going to be very different from what you're describing.
Carlos Sanchez (23:16.294)
Right, right.
PJ (23:41.178)
Am I on the right track there?
Carlos Sanchez (23:43.368)
I think so. Yeah. I mean, I think that, you know, ultimately the Socratic method, even the way that we teach it in schools, right. It's it's it's really literally a self awakening, right? You want to awaken and be confronted with your own individuality and the potential that you have as a person, as an individual person. I think that for Mexican philosophers, especially the ones that I'm interested in.
there was a sense in which the awakening was going to be an awakening into a community, right, an awakening into a shared experience. And so not necessarily into my own specific individuality, but into a shared world. And I think that's why it was so, that's why existentialism in Mexico looks little bit different than it does for existentialism in France, right?
Because especially the early existentialism of Sartre, right? The early existentialism of Sartre is very individualistic, right? And Mexican philosophers are going to resemble more the later existentialism of Sartre than the earlier because there is a sense in which our existence is bound up with one another, right? Heidegger would say that we are essentially beings with, right? We are with each other and
And I think those kinds of ideas resonated more with the Mexican philosophers than any others because there is this internal sense that we are going to awaken ourselves into a shared struggle and that's the only way that we're going to be able to overcome whatever obstacles.
PJ (25:32.508)
And I think you're speaking there to something you start the book off with, and I do want to make sure that we hit this. Mexican philosophy? What does it offer that, you of course, this is such a Western question, it's unfortunately, it's the kind of question that you get with Mexican philosophy. That's why you start the book off with it. I'm not just like, for the audience, I'm not just like, like, I mean, like, I know I had you on, but who even cares, right?
Like you start off the book talking about, if I am paraphrasing this correctly, that the unique perspective brings its own value. Is that the right way to think about it? And so, I mean, even as you're talking about this social aspect, right? You see it being with and Heidegger, he's taking that from Aristotle, but Aristotle saying where man's a social animal is different from Heidegger, very different from Heidegger.
And then of course that's different in Mexico. And in each case we are enriching what hopefully becomes a human tradition. Is that the right way to think about it? Or am I a little bit off there?
Carlos Sanchez (26:44.176)
No, no, no, no, I think you're right. think that. So let me let me go back to that question, right? I think that Mexican philosophy allows us to. To think about other possibilities of existence, right? Possibilities of existence that are are drenched with with history, with trauma, with drama, with with overcoming with
with violence even, right? But also with movements and moments of peace and such. So it's a very complex circumstance that Mexican philosophy gives us. And so it gives us the opportunity to think in those terms and in those contexts, right? so, but yes, does it mean that it is just
form the Mexican experience for Mexicans or is there like a tendency towards the greater community? And I think that it does have a tendency to the greater community. That's why I wrote the book. know, I don't think that I don't want to write a book that's going to be just for Mexicans or about Mexico. I think that my intention was to show that that Mexican philosophy is applicable to different experiences.
and these different experiences. I hate to use the word universal because I don't know what that is, right? But it's multiple experiences, right? Like it applies to different experiences, multiple experiences. And the reason why I think that my experience is different than the Mexican experience is because I'm not a Mexican, right? I'm a Mexican American. My parents are Mexican.
But I grew up in the United States with values that are very different from the ones that they grew up with. And so ultimately, the way that I see the world, the way that I interact with it is going to be different. The traumas that I have to deal with are going to be different than those of my parents. So I think that it's...
Carlos Sanchez (29:04.328)
It's a good philosophy to get you going and thinking about your own life without excusing it, right? Without getting rid of it. You don't have to erase your past in order to think these thoughts that are big.
PJ (29:24.892)
So most of my study was in Goddomer. So when you're talking about, you don't want to use the word universal, would another way of saying this be that a philosophy doesn't have to be universal to transcend horizons?
Carlos Sanchez (29:29.8)
Mm.
Carlos Sanchez (29:43.75)
Yes, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think that, that it needs to do that. I think that,
PJ (29:51.962)
You're not writing the answer to the universe and everything, right?
Carlos Sanchez (29:57.094)
Right, right, right. You know, I think this philosopher that I write about is Emilio Uranga. says that's arrogance, know, that's Western arrogance to think that the things that you're saying are going to be universal across the board. I think that if some of the things, for example, some of the things that I write somewhere end up influencing or helping shape the thought of somebody 200 years from now, that's enough. That's the transcendence of horizon right there.
But it doesn't need to be universally accepted or universally acknowledged or any other stuff, right? I think that universality is a bad deal.
PJ (30:36.404)
Yeah, yeah. It's a good way to end up in despair, I think. Yeah. Universally acknowledged is one thing. Universally accepted? That's... I can't even... yeah.
Carlos Sanchez (30:42.386)
Yes, absolutely.
Carlos Sanchez (30:50.994)
No, it's horrible. Yeah, it equates to certainty and the idea that everything you say is absolutely true, which is ridiculous and dangerous.
PJ (31:02.864)
Yeah, yeah, I so I want to make sure that we cover this because you Translated the entire book If I understand correctly the suspension of seriousness and I believe the term is relajo First off I just love the idea of the suspension of seriousness. So tell I get the idea that I don't know
Tell me about Relajo.
Carlos Sanchez (31:34.204)
Yeah, so, so yeah, in 2012, I published a book called The Suspension of Seriousness. And as part of that book, the index part of it is a full translation of that book, La Fandomología de Relajo, that I started off with when I when I finished my work on Who's Role. Now, it was a strange title and a strange book to pick up when I picked it up. Relajo
It literally means it comes from the word to relax from the from the noun to relax, right. And over the verb. And and so you if you are in a state of relato, you could say that you are relaxed. Right. But that's not the way that this philosopher uses it. Right. The way that he uses this term is to say he starts off the book in a very autobiographical.
way and by talking about the kind of people that he's confronting in Mexico City. And then he says, there's a lot of these people that have killed their futures, right? They have wasted their talents. They have canceled their future. Why? Because they spent the entire day doing absolutely nothing or not caring enough about things. And so then he gives it a name. says, the Lajo is going to be.
the suspension of seriousness, right? It's this idea that you should take your life seriously, or you should take things seriously, but you're not taking them seriously. Rather what you're doing is you're inverting or canceling out the values that hold together a particular situation. When you cancel out the values, you're in a state of unseriousness, and that's a moment of chaos and...
and anarchy, really, right? There's no values to regulate your moment in which you're living. Now, let me give you an example for you know, so so that we clear here with your listeners. So.
PJ (33:41.786)
Well, it is phenomenology, so if we didn't have a really good concrete example, yeah.
Carlos Sanchez (33:45.872)
Yes. Yeah. So, you know, it's like this. I think that the example that I use in the book, I talk about this friend of mine named Alex in the seventh grade, I believe. you know, and we're sitting in the classroom, we're sitting in history class. And when you're sitting in a classroom, there's a lot of expectations that are coming your way. Right.
Well, for example, right now, me and you talking through the computer, working on this podcast, there's expectations here, right? If my door opens up and a big clown pops up and starts just removing the furniture around, you want to cut that out, right? Because it's not part of the expectations that we have of what a podcast should be. So...
So there are certain values that are holding us together right now, me and you, right? Now, if I all of a sudden began to sing or got a frame and started doing something crazy over there or turn my computer upside down or whatever, then you would be thinking like, what is this guy doing? Right? He's not taking this seriously, right? He's not being serious enough and you'll probably hang up on me.
So so, know, that that kind of deal is is good enough and it's on its own. We encounter we encounter this kind of behavior all the time. But a lot of happens when that behavior spreads to other people. So it usually happens in communal situations and social settings where, for example, in the end, the chapter on the level that I have in the book, we're sitting in this history class values. Certain things are expected of us like take notes, listen to what's going on.
But then my friend raises his hand and asks my teacher if if it's true that his wife slept with Waylon Jennings, the very famous country singer, right, which was a ridiculous thing to ask. But he asked it and then it had to do with what my teacher was wearing that day. He had a shirt with Waylon Jennings on the front.
Carlos Sanchez (36:05.766)
And so this guy took this opportunity to just ask that question. You ask that question and immediately the other students, because we're all seventh graders, start to giggle. And before you know it, if you've ever been in front of a classroom full of seventh graders, you know what happens next is that it spreads like wildfire. And before you know it, no one is thinking about history anymore. No one is thinking about the rules that govern that classroom. Relajos spreads.
It continues on for a certain moment of time. So there you go. You know exactly what.
PJ (36:40.324)
I taught sixth graders for a year. this is bringing back so many painful memories. Yes. Anyways, please continue.
Carlos Sanchez (36:45.864)
And before you know it, you can't talk about history anymore. You can't go back to what you were originally talking about. That's relajo. Nothing is accomplished, right? I talk about the fact that I was angry because I wanted to learn about what was going on, but I couldn't anymore because the class had descended into chaos. Now that didn't last forever, of course. You know, the next day we came back and we
picked up exactly where we left off. But that's relajo, right? It's this phenomenon where there's a suspension of moment, a suspension of seriousness contaminates or infects a social situation. And before you know it, have no values that are holding that together. And it happens, it was interesting to me because when I was writing this,
because I wanted to translate the word relafo, right? So I would ask people, I asked a bunch of people all over, you know, Mexico and here, like, well, how do I, how do I do this? Well, lackadaisical comes close, but it's not really that, the closest, that, that, that, that I came to translating the term was, by using the word, you know, excuse my French, but it's a fucking around, right? And, and,
And it wouldn't hold either, Like it was, and no publisher was going to publish that, right? So I left it. Yeah, right. So I left it untranslated and I moved on, right? But I realized quickly that that phenomenon is actually pretty common everywhere, right? It happens here, right? It happens...
PJ (38:12.796)
Hey, if it's accurate, it's accurate.
PJ (38:21.712)
Not the kind of publisher you wanted anyways. Yeah, that's...
PJ (38:36.156)
Yeah.
Carlos Sanchez (38:42.556)
you know, in our society and the different societies, except that we don't have a very specific name for it. Right. Mexico and they have a specific name for that. Just don't have it here. So that's why I think that is a valuable concept, because that allows us to to categorize those moments, right? To say, OK, this is what's happening here. Yeah.
PJ (39:06.5)
I have five kids and I homeschool four of them. I am definitely going to use this term now. So on a personal level, thank you. That's definitely... And my wife will appreciate that I'm not saying fucking around. That I'm saying, relajo instead. Like, look, you're learning Spanish. Yeah. That is really...
Carlos Sanchez (39:13.831)
Yeah.
Carlos Sanchez (39:19.856)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
PJ (39:35.43)
fascinating. And it's really interesting to see this dissection of what is very common thing. that social construction, the way that values are something that just guide us through life, and then it just kind of falls apart.
It immediately strikes me as valuable. So yes, thank you.
Carlos Sanchez (39:58.952)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you know, I think that it's something that we, I mean, this idea that every situation that we find ourselves in is held together by certain values, something that we don't think about often, right? Because we're in it, we're filtered by it, right? And so we can't really get outside of ourselves to think that, there's expectations here.
I think the best example that I could come up with in other places is this idea of walking into a church, into a Catholic church, right? You walk into a Catholic church in Mexico and there's this expectation that you're supposed to immediately be reverent, right? You whisper, you don't walk too fast, you do the certain things that you have to do. Everything is very regimented, right?
PJ (40:30.544)
Hmm. Yeah.
Carlos Sanchez (40:52.52)
But nobody's telling you to do these things. I mean, it's just like imposed by the situation. And if you just happen to break character, right, to suspend the values that are holding that situation together, you're going to get kicked out of church, right? Or you're going to end up pissing a lot of people off.
PJ (41:13.904)
Yeah. so.
Forgive me, I'm thinking through this. Kids do that and they're immediately shushed, right? So it is a taught thing. I mean, that's part of the social construction side of it. And I think part of what you're getting at is people, mean, if I see someone else's kids running through in the middle of church, I'm like, shh. Right? I don't even think about it, right? Like you go, and so that's, it's so pervasive.
Carlos Sanchez (41:24.488)
Yeah, absolutely.
Carlos Sanchez (41:28.7)
Yes.
Carlos Sanchez (41:38.056)
Mm-hmm.
PJ (41:45.588)
if someone's like, why are you shushing them? It's like, what do mean why am I shushing them? It's a church.
Carlos Sanchez (41:49.308)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, John Stuart Mill had this notion of social sanctions, right? These prohibitions that exist that are not explicit, right? You just know that they exist. Yeah, you might have gotten them through education, through your moral upbringing or whatnot, but you don't think about them. They're there, right? They're part of the world in which you live.
And that's what a Portilla calls values, right? These are the values that are kind of holding something together. And so he wrote this book with the intent that hopefully people will be more aware that such a thing exists. Not for them to become like dictators about value or fanatics about it, right? That's the opposite extreme of that. But to just be aware.
that these things exist and maybe take them seriously when they need to be taken seriously and reject them when they need to be rejected.
PJ (42:49.528)
at the risk of... See, now I feel uncomfortable because we just talked about Rilaho and I picked the silliest chapter title that I could find to talk about. I was gonna ask you about... I'm like, wait, am I being Rilaho here? Why should we be like the rabbit?
Carlos Sanchez (43:11.684)
Yeah, so, you know, no, no problem. There is a very important concept in Mexican thought that goes all the way back to the indigenous period. And that's the concept of Nepantla. Nepantla is a concept that makes its introduction into the United States, into the English speaking world through Chicano feminist philosophers in the 1970s.
PJ (43:13.052)
Sorry, I couldn't resist. Yeah.
Carlos Sanchez (43:40.384)
and they, used it to talk about how, how identity in the borderlands of Mexico and the United States is fluid, right? It's a liminal, right? It's, it's, it's not, it's in the middle, right? It's not really United States culture and Mexican culture is like in the middle. Now this concept goes back all the way to the indigenous people who,
could believe that there was a middle way to exist, a in-between way to exist, right? And they would use this concept of nepantla to identify many different situations in which you had to exist or you existed in the middle of things, right? And so nepantla is this notion of being in between. And this notion of being like the rabbit kind of follows from that.
It's this idea that if you are not already in the middle, right? Or if you're not cognizant of existing in a middle world, in a middle ground, you should be, right? It should be that you should take up the existence of the rabbit who is hard to capture, right? Because the last thing you want is for somebody to tell you who you are.
right, to categorize you in a way that traps you, right. And for the indigenous people, the rabbit was like that. It was a shifty, cunning animal that wasn't easily captured. So the advice was to be like the rabbit and not be capturable, right. And so when you exist in a pantla, the idea is to recognize that you do.
and not allow yourself to be captured by. And the lesson in the book is to not let yourself be captured by stereotypes or identity concepts that kind of trap you into a particular space, right? I think that for me, growing up as a Mexican-American in the place that I did grow up in, was very easy to be negatively
Carlos Sanchez (46:05.64)
biased, right? To be, to, they would, you know, I remember the, my teacher, this is just a small example, but I, I used to work a lot. I used to, work at graveyard shift at a restaurant and I would go to school in the morning. So I would get out at six in the morning and I would go into, into school at seven 45. So I didn't sleep and I would get home and I would sleep for a few hours and then go back into my shift. I needed, I needed to help my parents. I needed to help myself or whatever. Right. But I remember.
PJ (46:07.046)
Hmm.
PJ (46:21.605)
Oof.
Carlos Sanchez (46:35.604)
very clearly I dressed like the other kids did. had khaki pants and a white t-shirt. It was the least expensive thing to wear. And then I would cut my hair really short because it was the best haircut to have if you're not sleeping or just going from work to school. But I would always, I remember I got sent to the office once and I didn't know why.
the, teacher folded a paper and said, here, go to the office and take this to the principal. And I, I'm walking like an idiot to the principal's office with his piece of paper in my hand. and then I, I, it didn't occur to me to open it because, you know, I, don't know why. Maybe I'm, I'm a good guy. I don't know. I am, I don't know. Maybe, maybe, you know, at the end of the day, but I handed it to the principal and he opened it and he's like, so, the teacher says that you're stoned and that you're, you know, basically your trope.
PJ (47:18.609)
Ha
Carlos Sanchez (47:31.81)
And I was like, why? Well, because of the way you look. And my eyes were kind of glassy and the way I was dressed, I had to be a cholo. I had to be stoned. I had to be up to no good, you know? And so that kind of that's just a small example of the way that I felt captured before prejudice, bias, right? And so the lesson in the book that I'm trying to show is that
PJ (47:37.372)
because your eyes were red and glassy. Yeah. Because you were tired.
Carlos Sanchez (48:00.85)
In Mexican philosophy, you have this idea that you should always be vigilant of those moments and not allow yourself to be captured by prejudice or bias or concepts.
PJ (48:14.31)
really glad I asked about that chapter. That was great. Last, I want to be conscious of your time, but I also want to ask you about being choosy about your inheritance. Can you talk about, yeah, you give like a whole, I mean, we could do this for hours. Like you have a bunch of great little lessons altogether. And so I'm just picking out a couple here, but that one in particular struck me.
Carlos Sanchez (48:26.225)
Yeah.
Carlos Sanchez (48:40.326)
Yeah, so, you know, I think that that one's very personal stories that I tell there, right? In terms of the inheritance stuff. I think that for me, you know, coming from a Mexican background and I see myself, I see my story also echoing with a lot of people that grew up in abusive households, right? And whatever culture they are part of, this happens quite a bit where
you look back and you remember your parents being, alcoholics or abusive or, know, perpetuating a particular behavior that they experienced. And so you, you would ask them now, like, why did you do that? Well, because my parents did that. and, and one of the things that I wanted to draw out in that lesson is that we don't have to perpetuate.
PJ (49:21.297)
Hmm.
Carlos Sanchez (49:39.704)
the inheritance, especially if it's bad for us or for others, right? And it comes from the Mexican philosopher, woman, not a lot of women make it into the history of 20th century Mexican philosophy, especially the period that I focus on. But this one does. And and she was talking about patriarchy and machismo and how those inheritances are taken up by people without thought.
And so I tell stories about how violence was kind of part of my childhood and how it was domestic violence and all of that stuff was part of it. And so the reason was always given that, that's how I grew up or that's how it was when I was growing up. Right. And I don't think it needs to be that way. Right. And I think that we have a choice. That's why I call it choosing or be choosy about it. We have a choice.
PJ (50:35.76)
Hmm.
Carlos Sanchez (50:39.536)
as to whether or not we're going to perpetuate that cycle. So, you know, I have three kids, three boys, they're teenagers, they drive me absolutely insane. They don't listen to me. But I'm not going to lay my hands on them. Even though it was very easy for my father to do that. Without thought. But for me, I'm choosing not to do that and also I don't want to. And so I think that it's important then to, that this lesson then...
PJ (50:53.434)
Hmm.
PJ (50:57.02)
Hmm.
Carlos Sanchez (51:09.34)
book that comes from this Mexican philosopher. She's saying we don't have to perpetuate the patriarchy, we don't have to perpetuate these things that are hurtful for us. And I think that's a good lesson for anybody really.
PJ (51:24.684)
One, thank you for including that kind of personal touch in the books and thank you for being willing to share. I appreciate it.
Carlos Sanchez (51:31.622)
Absolutely. Yeah, that's weird.
PJ (51:34.512)
being conscious of the time besides reading your excellent book.
what would you recommend our audience do over the course of the next week? Or what should they think about? So after hearing this episode, obviously they should get blooming in the ruins. besides that, yeah, that's the marketing coming through. What is something that you would recommend just for them to meditate on over the next week or to maybe do over the next week?
Carlos Sanchez (51:56.803)
Yeah.
Carlos Sanchez (52:09.416)
Well, I think it's very important, right? I think that it's important to reevaluate or at least think about our particular paths towards the people that we are today and reevaluate or reappreciate those moments that we think or that we have judged to be.
PJ (52:25.788)
Hmm.
Carlos Sanchez (52:38.258)
catastrophic or traumatic for us, right? I think that it's important to look at certain moments in our lives as moments of opportunity and growth, moments that we actually overcame, right? And not to stuff everything. I mean, I sound like a psychologist now, but not to stuff everything down into oblivion or into that box that says forget, right?
I think that we can work through our past in a way that is validating, right? And it says, you don't need to say, that episode or that period was good, but you could say, I survived that, right? I survived that moment and that's how I became who I am, or that's why I'm here. That's going to give me strength now to survive the next one.
And I think that, and that's why I call the book Blooming in the Ruins, right? It's this idea that we all carry with us, just like Mexican philosophers did, right? We all carry with us this history that might be a little abrasive, that might be a little heavy, but once we look at it and root ourselves in it, we can say that we survived it, that we can overcome pretty much anything now.
So I think that's a good thing to do, right? To just meditate on that and allow it to be a moment of overcoming and survival rather than a moment of hurt.
PJ (54:19.91)
Dr. Sanchez, an absolute joy talking to you today. Thank you for coming on the show.
Carlos Sanchez (54:24.658)
PJ, this was fantastic. I really had a great time. I feel very at ease. So anytime.