Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Dr. Jonathan Chaplain provides insight into various Christian views on the public square and how we are to then live.
Nuance is a podcast of The Collaborative helping Christians to faithfully live out their faith in their work. We recognize most of life is not lived in black and white but rather lived in the gray, lived in the nuance.
You can find more including complementary spiritual exercises at www.collaborativeorlando.com/nuance.
[case_thorp]: democracy was christianity's answer to tyranny so
says curtis chang
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[case_thorp]: of duke divinity
[crosland_stuart]: yeah
[case_thorp]: the kings of europe and even the
roman catholic churches hierarchy had become so corrupt
[case_thorp]: it pushed the english scottish and german
enlightenment thinkers in christian universities to develop the
[case_thorp]: very ideas of a liberal small l
idle order lock hume kant and others cast
[case_thorp]: a vision for individual rights and civil
liberties the rule of law limited government majority
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[case_thorp]: rule with minority rights
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[case_thorp]: and yet today many people question the
efficacy or the virtue of democracy as a
[case_thorp]: social order china's capitalist communism may seem
more attractive to some as a legitimate order
[case_thorp]: in this increasingly complex and diverse world
there are those in the extremes of the
[case_thorp]: american political spectrum that speak of abandoning
classical liberalism in order to push their agenda
[case_thorp]: silence opposing voices and win by might
and they argue that they are quote saving
[case_thorp]: the nation chang asked if christians developed
a social order to answer the tyranny of
[case_thorp]: the middle ages what is the christian's
responsibility today to invent a new social order
[case_thorp]: or we double down on classical liberalism
[crosland_stuart]: ah
[case_thorp]: various christian traditions will answer this question
different ways from lutherans to methodists to roman
[case_thorp]: catholics each could have a slightly different
answer because of their starting points philosophically biblical
[case_thorp]: interpretations in their own theological tradition they
each have engaged with the public square in
[case_thorp]: unique ways there are reasons why the
shakers in pensylvania still ride horse driven buggies
[case_thorp]: today and while denominations and even churches
like my own offer live streaming online worship
[case_thorp]: services there are theological foundations and historical
mil markers that bring me as a calvinist
[case_thorp]: to seek change through hey a podcast
while a roman catholic has long sought transformation
[case_thorp]: through its social services
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[case_thorp]: well in the workplace we often encounter
the breadth of the christian tradition in ways
[case_thorp]: that we don't otherwise water cooler conversations
between christ's followers can become rather heated when
[case_thorp]: topics such as politics come up can
two people who follow the same jesus genuinely
[case_thorp]: hold diametrically opposed political positions one for
trump another for bidin one for abortion the
[case_thorp]: other not one for guns the other
not our varied christian tribes or denominations see
[case_thorp]: and engage the public square uniquely and
comparing and contrasting them equips us to navigate
[case_thorp]: our faith at work with deeper wisdom
and acts of love this is our focus
[case_thorp]: today on this episode of nuance nuance
is a podcast of the collaborative where we
[case_thorp]: wrestle together about life beyond the walls
of the church and especially at work
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[case_thorp]: here we wade into the muddy waters
of the public square itself with special attention
[case_thorp]: given to the work of our hands
our careers or vocational efforts towards the common
[case_thorp]: good this season we're exploring what is
meant by a public square and then how
[case_thorp]: does it express itself in for unique
characteristics of christian citizenship prince pluralism common grace
[case_thorp]: prophetic voice and hospitality last episode we
establish the idea of public theology in the
[case_thorp]: public square today take a survey of
the variety of options for the christ follower
[case_thorp]: and the changing landscape of society well
to help us do this we have invited
[crosland_stuart]: yeah
[case_thorp]: jonathan chaplain to join our conversation dr
chaplain
[crosland_stuart]: a
[case_thorp]: is a member of the center for
faith and public life at wesley house in
[case_thorp]: cambridge and a member of the cambridge
university divinity
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[case_thorp]: faculty he's also
[crosland_stuart]: so
[case_thorp]: a senior fellow of the canadian christian
think tank cartas for which he writes regularly
[case_thorp]: and write for comment magazine one of
our favorites dr chaplain has lectured and written
[case_thorp]: widely on many themes
[crosland_stuart]: yah
[case_thorp]: in christian political thought
[crosland_stuart]: yah
[case_thorp]: publications like god and global order god
and government and his latest publication faith in
[case_thorp]: democracy framing a deep politics of diversity
cut zach
[jonathan_]: oh
[case_thorp]: re do his latest publication is faith
in democracy framing a politics of deep diversity
[case_thorp]: published last year by c m and
he's a writer on religion and secularism often
[case_thorp]: for the british newspaper the guardian i'm
grateful to have you today with our conversation
[case_thorp]: my name is kase thorpe and welcome
to nuance
[case_thorp]: well again my name is kase thorpe
and welcome to our episode
[crosland_stuart]: a
[case_thorp]: crossland my
[crosland_stuart]: right
[case_thorp]: partner here good to see you
[crosland_stuart]: good to see you glad to be
here
[case_thorp]: and dr chaplain we appreciate you being
with us all the way from the
[jonathan_]: it's a pleasure to be here and
to join this very interesting conversation ye
[case_thorp]: a a
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[case_thorp]: well crossland start us off
[crosland_stuart]: well dr chaplain here at nuance
[jonathan_]: m
[crosland_stuart]: we talk a lot about ideas and
the habituation of them in our lives but
[crosland_stuart]: we don't ever want to lose sight
of the power of story and the value
[crosland_stuart]: of story because i think it helps
all of us better understand things so we
[crosland_stuart]: would love to know more about your
[case_thorp]: a
[crosland_stuart]: story i would love for our audience
to get to know you ittle bit better
[crosland_stuart]: as well as how did you become
interested in public theology
[case_thorp]: i
[jonathan_]: oh that started many years ago when
i was a teen ager and i was
[jonathan_]: raised in what was then a fairly
conventional suburban middle
[crosland_stuart]: a
[jonathan_]: class evangelical
[case_thorp]: yeah
[jonathan_]: anglican church in the north of england
will be recognizable to many of you and
[jonathan_]: i just increasingly begin to find attention
between two things in my life one my
[jonathan_]: experience of church and my reading of
the bible which seemed to me full of
[jonathan_]: calls to do justice to show compassion
to show mercy to care for the poor
[jonathan_]: and on the other hand my theology
my church experience which seemed to say
[crosland_stuart]: experience
[jonathan_]: very little about that at
[crosland_stuart]: seems
[jonathan_]: all talked a great deal about personal
righteousness
[case_thorp]: m
[jonathan_]: and evangelism and prayer all really important
things but i couldn't put those two together
[jonathan_]: so that propelled me into assert for
more integrated reading of the bible reading of
[jonathan_]: of church a sense of what church
should be if we read the bible
[crosland_stuart]: ah
[jonathan_]: truthfully and accurately and listening to all
those calls for justice and peace and compassion
[jonathan_]: so that's where it all started and
then through my university years and beyond i
[jonathan_]: did graduate study i looked for mentors
and i looked for places where i could
[jonathan_]: into depth into all those questions that
took me to some interesting places
[case_thorp]: yeah
[jonathan_]: and eventually you know i decided to
become an academic
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[jonathan_]: i figured that was my calling and
that's been my focus ever since to really
[jonathan_]: ask the estion how does authentic biblical
faith speak powerfully prophetically critically
[case_thorp]: m
[jonathan_]: pathetically to a social and political crisis
and challenges which are very different today than
[jonathan_]: when i started out even more serious
and even more troubling that's a very short
[jonathan_]: bio for
[case_thorp]: m
[jonathan_]: you
[case_thorp]: well
[crosland_stuart]: no
[case_thorp]: i can
[crosland_stuart]: it's
[case_thorp]: relate
[crosland_stuart]: great
[case_thorp]: i can relate i grew up in
a suburb of atlanta as
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[case_thorp]: a methodist and then a presbyterian and
solid evangelical environment i realized looking back and
[case_thorp]: in our community
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[case_thorp]: and see the homeless so much well
one day there was a homeless man and
[case_thorp]: i as a middle school er kind
of threw a fit and said we've got
[case_thorp]: to go get him a meal and
my father who is a very godly man
[case_thorp]: an elder in the church was very
reticent and no no
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[case_thorp]: no he's fine there will be services
[jonathan_]: hm
[case_thorp]: for him i could not understand we're
christians right
[crosland_stuart]: i
[case_thorp]: why aren't
[jonathan_]: oh
[case_thorp]: we meeting this man's need
[crosland_stuart]: yeah
[case_thorp]: so
[jonathan_]: yeah
[case_thorp]: it
[jonathan_]: yeah
[case_thorp]: it does
[jonathan_]: absolutely
[case_thorp]: shape you as
[jonathan_]: well
[case_thorp]: you
[jonathan_]: i echo
[case_thorp]: grow
[jonathan_]: those
[case_thorp]: in your tradition
[jonathan_]: i echo those kinds of concerns to
and you know my family and my church
[jonathan_]: were great people and they did show
a lot of compassion on an individual
[case_thorp]: yeah
[jonathan_]: basis
[crosland_stuart]: yeah
[jonathan_]: to people that that wasn't the issue
you know they were open to all races
[jonathan_]: they were open to all kinds of
people that they cared for the four but
[jonathan_]: what they didn't do was take next
step and so what does
[crosland_stuart]: i
[jonathan_]: that mean institutionally what does that mean
politically what does that mean
[crosland_stuart]: hm
[case_thorp]: m
[jonathan_]: for our government system what does that
mean for our welfare system for our immigration
[jonathan_]: system for our economic system what does
it mean for our educational system all
[crosland_stuart]: on
[jonathan_]: those things those questions hardly and what
i found and this is what particularly troubled
[jonathan_]: me is that you know many of
my fellow believers
[crosland_stuart]: m
[jonathan_]: at the time simply lined up their
political beliefs with standard main stream secular options
[jonathan_]: with no attempt to reflect critically on
those
[case_thorp]: yeah
[jonathan_]: political choices from a christian perspective
[case_thorp]: we have no idea what you're referring
to here you know
[jonathan_]: well
[case_thorp]: we
[jonathan_]: i
[case_thorp]: wouldn't
[jonathan_]: mean you know you know where we
are today
[case_thorp]: we don't do that in american christianity
[jonathan_]: oh
[case_thorp]: yeh
[crosland_stuart]: oh gosh
[case_thorp]: but
[crosland_stuart]: well
[case_thorp]: it's real
[jonathan_]: yeah
[crosland_stuart]: end reflecting critically seems to be coming
an increasingly difficult task for for all of
[crosland_stuart]: us whether it's institutional or as individuals
that's one of the reasons i'm really excited
[crosland_stuart]: for you to be with us today
[case_thorp]: we've lost a lot of the nuance
i
[crosland_stuart]: yes
[case_thorp]: gotta get that plug in there well
jonathan so i have always
[crosland_stuart]: always
[case_thorp]: been taken with how other
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[case_thorp]: christians from other denominations approach how they
do respond both individual and institutionally so could
[case_thorp]: you just kind of give us a
survey of the landscape from how various christian
[case_thorp]: traditions look at their
[jonathan_]: m
[case_thorp]: engagement in the public square
[jonathan_]: okay that's a tough assignment in just
a few minutes but
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[jonathan_]: let me have a stab at it
[crosland_stuart]: h
[jonathan_]: so it's a complex
[case_thorp]: oh
[jonathan_]: landscape
[crosland_stuart]: h
[case_thorp]: yeah
[jonathan_]: nobody needs reminding of that maybe the
first thing to say well to two things
[jonathan_]: to say first one is that the
deep tribal animosities that are now tearing america
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[jonathan_]: apart and increasingly tearing much of europe
part
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[jonathan_]: do not line up one to one
with any one denominational or confessional tradition on
[jonathan_]: public theology
[case_thorp]: m
[jonathan_]: so you know you can't say that
methodists are more prone to a slavish devotion
[jonathan_]: to the republican or the democratic party
than catholics we're in a kind of we're
[jonathan_]: in a kind of mess now
[crosland_stuart]: we
[jonathan_]: in those traditions have actually lost their
capacity to direct us pope was that's one
[jonathan_]: of the problems we have all traditions
are struggling
[case_thorp]: hm
[jonathan_]: to dig into their own resources in
order to give guidance to their members and
[jonathan_]: so therefore we are all of us
susceptible being swept up in these pernicious tribal
[jonathan_]: movements kind of crazy irrational movements on
[case_thorp]: what
[jonathan_]: different sides of the political spectrum so
[crosland_stuart]: yeah
[jonathan_]: that's one preliminary thing to say the
other thing is that even without the current
[case_thorp]: and
[jonathan_]: discontents
[case_thorp]: if i may jump in
[jonathan_]: oh yeah
[crosland_stuart]: yeah
[case_thorp]: well just to point out that i
mean but in american history those tribal denominational
[case_thorp]: differences did make a difference if you
were a presbyterian or a cat like i
[case_thorp]: mean when john f kennedy was alive
it was very much a part of people's
[case_thorp]: perception of their candidates and interpretation of
their agenda
[jonathan_]: yeah i think that's right and i
think that's a new problem that we have
[jonathan_]: now that we were at sea and
vulnerable to these these radical distorting movements and
[jonathan_]: we lack rootedness in our own traditions
so the the other primary thing to say
[jonathan_]: is that even taking
[crosland_stuart]: so
[jonathan_]: for granted what you say is right
case which i think it is and that
[jonathan_]: was that was also true over here
in europe you know if you were kind
[jonathan_]: of a german lutheran people kind of
knew where you would more or less come
[jonathan_]: out if you were an english anglican
[case_thorp]: yeah
[jonathan_]: people would have a broad sense of
where you might end up politically in a
[jonathan_]: sense it's much harder
[crosland_stuart]: so
[jonathan_]: to no but but even then there
was quite a bit of diversity so it's
[jonathan_]: not possible to say here's the reformed
view on public theology or the catholic view
[jonathan_]: there's multiplicity views the less those
[crosland_stuart]: a
[jonathan_]: traditions those denomination and confessional traditions still
have some they still have some identity so
[jonathan_]: it is meaningful to talk about them
so i mean do you want me to
[jonathan_]: just try to give a quick over
view i mean one could start
[case_thorp]: okay
[jonathan_]: let's say with a lie known tradition
which would be the anabaptist tradition goes back
[jonathan_]: to the sixteenth century anabaptists those who
were scorned by the main reformers for being
[jonathan_]: too radical and for being too separatist
[case_thorp]: m
[jonathan_]: they were passifist they were non violent
they did not participate in government they were
[jonathan_]: on the fringe
[case_thorp]: oh
[jonathan_]: of the reformation
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[jonathan_]: and they really rejected
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[jonathan_]: engagements in the public square they sort
of rejected public theology as something beyond the
[jonathan_]: remit of the true gospel you know
the gospel was creating a holy community separate
[jonathan_]: from society and you see elements of
that in remaining traditions like the arms for
[jonathan_]: example in various places but then today
what you might call the neo anabaptist have
[jonathan_]: changed out of all recognition and thinking
here of powerful theologians like john de stanley
[jonathan_]: how many
[case_thorp]: yeah
[jonathan_]: others
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[jonathan_]: in that school those are no longer
separatists they don't no longer advocate withdraw from
[jonathan_]: society there still passipists are still non
violent are still quite reluctant to engage in
[jonathan_]: government office holding that's not a priority
for them
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[jonathan_]: some are quite cautious about
[crosland_stuart]: yeah
[jonathan_]: that they advocate keeping a prophetic distance
from the state and indeed from other institutions
[jonathan_]: but they want to engage with those
institutions
[crosland_stuart]: i had
[jonathan_]: professically out of a out of a
sort commitment to the gospel in the public
[jonathan_]: realm so it's a different kind of
engagement it's not separatist but they're still as
[jonathan_]: i say reluctant to
[case_thorp]: my
[jonathan_]: commit themselves to whole hearted engagement in
political institutions but there's still enormous amount we
[jonathan_]: can learn from them as the now
the critical voice that is often often muffled
[jonathan_]: by those who get too close to
part that's one
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[jonathan_]: strand and
[case_thorp]: right
[jonathan_]: people who hold that view today you
might find them working in different sectors of
[jonathan_]: society you know they're not all huddled
in a holy community any more but you
[jonathan_]: will find them adopt in a routine
critical voice distancing voice against the major trends
[jonathan_]: whether it's in large corporations
[case_thorp]: hm
[jonathan_]: whether it's in government or whether it's
in educatin and so forth they'll be the
[jonathan_]: sort of the most radical critical voices
so that's one end of the spectrum
[case_thorp]: yeah
[jonathan_]: another main tradition is associated with classical
lutheranism although it has also been influential very
[jonathan_]: influential in calvinism for much of the
calvinist tradition this was also the case it's
[jonathan_]: kind of two kingdoms model whereby god
is seen as oh calling christians to be
[jonathan_]: faithful in the church to live up
to the norms of the gospel the calling
[jonathan_]: of the gospel within the church but
then he also calls people to participate in
[jonathan_]: other institutions in social
[crosland_stuart]: i
[jonathan_]: institutions but not according to the norms
of the gospel according to les demanding norms
[jonathan_]: which are suitable for a fallen world
in which people cannot be expected
[case_thorp]: oh
[jonathan_]: to live up to the higher demands
of the gospel so you might for example
[jonathan_]: find
[case_thorp]: okay
[jonathan_]: such
[case_thorp]: so this
[jonathan_]: yeah
[case_thorp]: reminds me
[crosland_stuart]: no
[case_thorp]: if i might say this reminds
[crosland_stuart]: i
[case_thorp]: me and i know carlson is gonna
laugh are you familiar with the american t
[case_thorp]: v show survivor
[crosland_stuart]: yeah
[jonathan_]: yeah
[crosland_stuart]: uh
[case_thorp]: and are you familiar
[crosland_stuart]: wait
[case_thorp]: with survivor
[crosland_stuart]: yeah
[case_thorp]: i hope not well it's so funny
this is this silly game where adults
[crosland_stuart]: adults
[case_thorp]: go live
[crosland_stuart]: live
[case_thorp]: for forty days on a deserted island
[crosland_stuart]: and
[case_thorp]: and try to compete and win and
they
[jonathan_]: oh
[case_thorp]: all
[crosland_stuart]: all
[case_thorp]: s feature
[crosland_stuart]: interesting
[case_thorp]: the christian and then they always
[crosland_stuart]: always
[case_thorp]: love
[crosland_stuart]: love
[case_thorp]: to
[crosland_stuart]: the
[case_thorp]: feature
[crosland_stuart]: face
[jonathan_]: i
[case_thorp]: when the christian stab somebody in the
back to win the game and it's like
[case_thorp]: well do you play the game to
win or can
[jonathan_]: yeah
[case_thorp]: you play the game true to you
christian convictions
[crosland_stuart]: yeah
[case_thorp]: and
[jonathan_]: okay
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[case_thorp]: it makes for good t v
[jonathan_]: you've captured
[crosland_stuart]: yeah
[jonathan_]: this idea pretty well that case actually
thank you for that
[crosland_stuart]: what oh
[jonathan_]: yeah so i mean to to give
the more serious
[case_thorp]: oh
[jonathan_]: but no less evocative example
[case_thorp]: i
[jonathan_]: take somebody who is working
[case_thorp]: oh
[jonathan_]: in
[crosland_stuart]: yes
[jonathan_]: government
[crosland_stuart]: yes
[jonathan_]: let's
[crosland_stuart]: what
[case_thorp]: yeah
[jonathan_]: say in the defense department
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[jonathan_]: even as in the littery and you
know it's contemplating whether to
[crosland_stuart]: a
[jonathan_]: engage in military action in some setting
whatever
[case_thorp]: ah
[jonathan_]: now in the christian tradition there has
been a long standing understand what's called just
[jonathan_]: war principles so that there are
[crosland_stuart]: ah
[jonathan_]: there are certain grounds that could permit
a state to engage in military action if
[jonathan_]: certain conditions are met now if you
are shaped more by that two kingdoms more
[jonathan_]: you will have less demanding standards just
at principles whereas if you are shaped more
[jonathan_]: by catholic reformed position you will and
to hold the view that even though there
[jonathan_]: might be a need for military action
in certain cases that should be tempered it
[jonathan_]: should be mitigated by mercy by
[crosland_stuart]: i
[jonathan_]: love by compassion even in the case
of military actual you want to say we
[jonathan_]: want to minimize casualties we want to
minimize damage we want to create conditions for
[jonathan_]: a just
[case_thorp]: m
[jonathan_]: peace as soon as possible that will
be at the forefront of your mind and
[jonathan_]: if you
[crosland_stuart]: i
[jonathan_]: cannot see that that's a piece of
that's possible you will then argue against military
[jonathan_]: action so it could make a difference
even in terms of
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[jonathan_]: questions like a pro call as momentous
as that that's just as just one example
[jonathan_]: m
[case_thorp]: that's great and you see such a
difference in what we're observing with the russia
[case_thorp]: ukraine situation at least from the u
s perspective on war publicly and in policy
[case_thorp]: i
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[case_thorp]: know folks will have
[crosland_stuart]: yeah
[case_thorp]: a wide view of opinions on the
u s military um but at least that
[case_thorp]: desire to have a just
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[case_thorp]: war approach is in the system
[jonathan_]: well you know that's a very interesting
question you'll be more qualified to comment on
[jonathan_]: that than i would i would i
think there's a difficult conversation to be had
[jonathan_]: there
[case_thorp]: yes
[jonathan_]: about not just the u s military
but no more generally including the which is
[jonathan_]: the leading military power and to right
now the is playing a key role in
[jonathan_]: ukraine
[case_thorp]: hm
[jonathan_]: you know those i would tend to
say that most wars that have been fought
[jonathan_]: this is my view now speaking i'm
not representing
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[jonathan_]: tradition in most wars that have been
but frankly in the modern age have violated
[jonathan_]: one or more just or principle quite
seriously
[crosland_stuart]: m
[jonathan_]: in
[case_thorp]: sure
[jonathan_]: the in the in the second world
war britain fire bombed german cities causing almost
[jonathan_]: as much damaging civilian casualty as herosmaand
so you know we
[case_thorp]: m
[jonathan_]: we have we have a very complicated
track record both our nations in in this
[jonathan_]: regard
[case_thorp]: yeah
[jonathan_]: but i would certainly say that
[case_thorp]: for sure
[jonathan_]: if you have let me just move
on to another another position that was kind
[jonathan_]: of illustrate what i called a two
[case_thorp]: please
[jonathan_]: kingdom position now in another and if
the reform tradition particularly calvinism particularly
[case_thorp]: yeah
[jonathan_]: modern calvin you have what's called one
kingdom so you don't have a two ter
[jonathan_]: ethic
[crosland_stuart]: don't have to
[jonathan_]: if god is holding the world to
some
[crosland_stuart]: yeah
[jonathan_]: lower standard of performance than the church
you have one kingdom which is the kingdom
[jonathan_]: of god is the kingdom of christ
on it is essentially the cool through christ
[jonathan_]: for the whole of creation to be
restored to its original calling under god the
[jonathan_]: whole of the world the whole of
human history whole of human culture to be
[jonathan_]: brought under the law ship of christ
not according to some two
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[jonathan_]: to thic essentially according to one nor
justice peace shall at runs right throughout the
[jonathan_]: and as i personally as i read
the bible
[case_thorp]: m
[jonathan_]: that's the one
[case_thorp]: m
[jonathan_]: that makes makes most sense to me
so i'm a one kingdom
[case_thorp]: my
[jonathan_]: reformed guy
[case_thorp]: and
[jonathan_]: if you want
[case_thorp]: and for
[jonathan_]: if you want
[case_thorp]: us
[jonathan_]: me
[case_thorp]: here
[jonathan_]: to yeah
[crosland_stuart]: yeah
[jonathan_]: and that does make a difference because
it means that you cannot simply relax or
[jonathan_]: take your foot off the
[crosland_stuart]: i
[jonathan_]: accelerator so to speak when you're trying
to engage in the public realm here in
[jonathan_]: the secular public realm you have to
as it were look out
[case_thorp]: yeah
[jonathan_]: for and positively encourage every proximation of
gospel truth gospel mercy gospel justice
[case_thorp]: yeah
[jonathan_]: gospel peace in that setting whether it's
a military setting or whether it's a college
[jonathan_]: staff room or whether it's a church
you know i mean the church itself has
[jonathan_]: its own issues as we all
[case_thorp]: okay
[jonathan_]: know so that a different vision of
public theology means that you're always looking for
[jonathan_]: where god's kingdom can be manifested you
know not that we bring it in but
[jonathan_]: we are on the lookout for science
of god at work bringing his kingdom in
[jonathan_]: and therefore we live in hope whatever
institution we're in place government wherever it is
[jonathan_]: we live in the hope that there
can be incremental approximations to
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[jonathan_]: the gospel of christ and the healing
and the conciliation and the renewal that comes
[jonathan_]: through christ and we're not going to
stop short by as it were falling into
[jonathan_]: m kind of two tier
[crosland_stuart]: yeah
[jonathan_]: model in which
[case_thorp]: oh
[jonathan_]: you know if we if we just
fulfil a very low bench mark of performance
[jonathan_]: then we've done our duty as a
christian so that is a seificant difference between
[jonathan_]: the two kingdoms and the and one
kingdom model
[jonathan_]: maybe i should say that broad model
of one kingdom doesn't itself resolve any of
[jonathan_]: the specific political divides that
[crosland_stuart]: yeah
[jonathan_]: are tearing apart
[crosland_stuart]: yeah
[jonathan_]: so you will find representatives of the
one kingdom model passionately voting for bide and
[jonathan_]: others who passionately worked for trump and
will be doing again in twenty twenty four
[jonathan_]: so that's that's only the beginning of
a perspective it's a beginning of an aurientation
[jonathan_]: framing the questions but then you've got
to do a lot of the detail work
[jonathan_]: figuring out what are what are the
principles that are governing or distorting the secular
[jonathan_]: world
[case_thorp]: yeah
[jonathan_]: what what is fundamentally
[crosland_stuart]: and from
[jonathan_]: wrong you know yeah
[crosland_stuart]: well and from your i do think
that you've just hit the nail on the
[crosland_stuart]: head because you have a group of
people who would profess a one kingdom mentality
[crosland_stuart]: and and yet there would be differing
views on so
[case_thorp]: a
[crosland_stuart]: many things and we can just take
the
[jonathan_]: hm
[crosland_stuart]: easy one of american politics whether it's
the republican stands or what bydon is projecting
[crosland_stuart]: and implementing now there would be real
differences of opinion there how do we understand
[crosland_stuart]: and therefore love our neighbor better whether
they're
[jonathan_]: m
[crosland_stuart]: at our dinner table or whether they're
at the water cool or at work or
[crosland_stuart]: they are venders that we work with
you know
[case_thorp]: yeah
[crosland_stuart]: how
[jonathan_]: m
[crosland_stuart]: do we you know when nowadays the
temptation is to get up and leave the
[crosland_stuart]: table or
[case_thorp]: m
[crosland_stuart]: you just don't have conversations
[jonathan_]: hm
[crosland_stuart]: with people you know they are just
things
[jonathan_]: m
[crosland_stuart]: that we do not discuss and
[case_thorp]: i
[crosland_stuart]: as a result of
[jonathan_]: m
[crosland_stuart]: that i think we're we are furthering
intrenching ourselves into a hole and we're
[jonathan_]: hm
[crosland_stuart]: not being faithful what crypture calls to
be assault and light
[jonathan_]: absolutely and you know to the extent
that the church today
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[jonathan_]: in america or anywhere is simply echoing
and replicating indeed feeling same tribal divisions
[crosland_stuart]: es
[jonathan_]: that are tearing our society but we
we are
[crosland_stuart]: uh
[jonathan_]: guilty of a
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[jonathan_]: terrible failure discipleship
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[jonathan_]: you know it is discrediting the witness
of the gospel before the world in really
[jonathan_]: appalling ways that going take a long
long time to recover from and heal you
[jonathan_]: know there generations now of especially younger
people look at these divisions and the acromenywith
[jonathan_]: which we argue with each other this
is just christians now never mind the rest
[jonathan_]: of the world and they say okay
well
[case_thorp]: oh
[jonathan_]: if that's
[crosland_stuart]: right
[jonathan_]: what christianity means you can keep it
you know i can't possibly be interested in
[jonathan_]: the god whose
[case_thorp]: yeah
[jonathan_]: people
[crosland_stuart]: yeah
[jonathan_]: think that kind of behavior is remotely
justifiable so we have all of us every
[jonathan_]: nation we have some deep repentance to
do collectively and that's going to take generation
[jonathan_]: and that's a key question that we
need to ask how do we start that
[jonathan_]: process
[case_thorp]: my
[jonathan_]: i would call it repentance because we
have to renounce these ways you know paul
[jonathan_]: himself says renounce worldly ways we have
sold out to them big time and we've
[jonathan_]: got to we've got to go back
to christ and begin again working and learning
[jonathan_]: again way of christ you know paul
says
[case_thorp]: m
[jonathan_]: by now you should be on solid
food but you need to go back to
[jonathan_]: the very basic kind of the milk
of the gospel that's where we need to
[jonathan_]: do right back to the beginning so
you're absolutely right crossland
[crosland_stuart]: m
[jonathan_]: the way that we are
[case_thorp]: my
[jonathan_]: um speaking to each other in hateful
excluding ways is really shameful at the same
[jonathan_]: time i would say this we can't
move out of the situation by refusing to
[jonathan_]: speak the truth other words by simply
pitting unity and reconciliation against speaking the truth
[jonathan_]: so there's no way around difficult conversations
no way around the weather the weather the
[jonathan_]: water cooler the family
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[jonathan_]: dinner table you know during
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[jonathan_]: breast six years ago families across the
u k
[case_thorp]: m
[jonathan_]: were torn apart by this christian families
torn apart so
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[case_thorp]: yes
[jonathan_]: we've had a little bit of this
as well we know but you've got to
[jonathan_]: have the difficult conversation you know
[case_thorp]: a
[jonathan_]: you know i mean i'll speak personally
[case_thorp]: m
[jonathan_]: for myself to me
[crosland_stuart]: yeah
[case_thorp]: oh
[jonathan_]: you know the presidency of donald trump
was an abomination
[case_thorp]: a
[jonathan_]: multiple reasons
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[jonathan_]: and i would argue in those
[case_thorp]: yeah
[jonathan_]: difficult conversations hopefully graciously civilly respectfully i
would argue you know people who've hit themselves
[jonathan_]: to that wagon have really got to
a break free from that captivity and detach
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[jonathan_]: themselves from really an unholy alliance which
isn't to say the other party is a
[jonathan_]: holy alliance far from it so you
know we've got to have the difficult conversations
[jonathan_]: and we've got to somehow balance that
bold speaking of the truth
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[jonathan_]: with same time respect for the human
being that is sitting sitting right across it
[crosland_stuart]: yeah
[jonathan_]: at the table whatever table that might
be and that they too made in the
[jonathan_]: image of god they have concerns they
may have truths we have to pay attention
[jonathan_]: to so right let's let's jump straight
into
[case_thorp]: m
[jonathan_]: o wait do you do you want
to that for a couple of minutes
[crosland_stuart]: yeah
[case_thorp]: yeah
[jonathan_]: i mean
[case_thorp]: actually
[jonathan_]: you know
[case_thorp]: yes so i
[jonathan_]: did
[case_thorp]: was
[jonathan_]: you
[case_thorp]: hoping
[jonathan_]: have a question
[case_thorp]: you would
[jonathan_]: about that
[case_thorp]: take a social issue
[jonathan_]: yeah
[case_thorp]: and well
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[case_thorp]: i was hoping you would take one
particular social issue and
[jonathan_]: m
[case_thorp]: walk us through how the various
[crosland_stuart]: yeah yeah
[case_thorp]: christian views might view that i'll throw
in i mean we hit the collaborative really
[case_thorp]: resina that's what we do what we
do
[jonathan_]: yeah
[case_thorp]: on your statement about the long long
time of healing and discipleship
[jonathan_]: m
[case_thorp]: we're hyper fans and i heard
[jonathan_]: oh
[case_thorp]: that
[jonathan_]: yeah
[case_thorp]: reflected in your calvinistic view
[jonathan_]: m
[case_thorp]: so please help us with rove wade
[jonathan_]: yeah well i mean goodness me it's
just explosive isn't it one of the most
[jonathan_]: destructive
[crosland_stuart]: yes
[jonathan_]: legal decisions for generations we're picking up
the ramification
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[jonathan_]: here through our media as well but
you know what it must be like for
[jonathan_]: you is
[case_thorp]: a
[jonathan_]: much much more intense so look i
mean here there's the first thing to do
[jonathan_]: is to take a deep breath sit
back
[crosland_stuart]: m
[jonathan_]: on first of all try to work
out an invent
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[jonathan_]: of questions there's not just one question
involved here
[case_thorp]: okay
[jonathan_]: it's not just
[case_thorp]: oh
[jonathan_]: are you for or against abortion
[case_thorp]: a
[jonathan_]: she it is a human or a
person or not does the woman have a
[jonathan_]: right to attempt to reduce the question
to just that one or other question are
[jonathan_]: going to fail so for a start
what's happened is in some ways quite a
[jonathan_]: technical
[crosland_stuart]: ah
[jonathan_]: legal outcome the authority to determine abortion
policy has been referred back to the states
[jonathan_]: so those who are saying
[crosland_stuart]: yeah
[jonathan_]: abortion is now a band of course
that's that isn't true it's going to be
[jonathan_]: bound or restricted it's going to happen
[case_thorp]: oh
[jonathan_]: at state level that's already happening so
so there's there's the technical question of what
[jonathan_]: actually happened and what are the implications
of that
[case_thorp]: yeah
[jonathan_]: i myself think and i think a
lot of americans would share this view american
[jonathan_]: christians would share the view this is
not a decision that should ever have been
[jonathan_]: made by the nine justices of the
supreme court back in seventy
[case_thorp]: oh
[jonathan_]: three this is a decision that should
have been made by congress it's a national
[jonathan_]: decision that was so important that it
needed to take place by the representative body
[jonathan_]: of the whole people we can argue
about how representative congress is that's another conversation
[jonathan_]: but that's i think the locus of
where the decision should be made
[crosland_stuart]: yeah
[jonathan_]: now right now that's not the case
because congress is completely stymie completely divided on
[jonathan_]: that so by default states will move
in and make those decisions and that's what's
[jonathan_]: hap
[crosland_stuart]: so
[jonathan_]: so there's that
[case_thorp]: oh
[jonathan_]: question there's the question of what whether
it's federal or state what should be a
[jonathan_]: just regulation of the rights of the
unborn child of the fetes that's that's a
[jonathan_]: key question that a lot of people
don't want to in front and that's where
[jonathan_]: you get into deeper questions of the
humanity and personal identity of an unborn child
[jonathan_]: now i'm very clear on this i
think that you know from the moment of
[jonathan_]: conception there is a human life in
the womb and human life brings with it
[jonathan_]: undamental human rights and one of those
is the right to life so that's i'm
[jonathan_]: quite unashamedly pro life in that sense
i don't see so biblically theologically how you
[jonathan_]: can reach
[crosland_stuart]: yes
[jonathan_]: another view there's no arbitrary scientific cut
of a biological cut off point that other
[jonathan_]: than conception i think that that
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[jonathan_]: it indicates the beginning of a human
life but then you've got to ask the
[jonathan_]: question so that's the case how do
we protect but how do
[crosland_stuart]: yeah
[jonathan_]: we also balance the rights of life
of the unborn
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[jonathan_]: child with the rights of the mother
and of the father which tend to get
[jonathan_]: completely ignored in this question um mothers
have rights you know
[case_thorp]: true
[jonathan_]: they are human beings too they have
dignity they have they have they have choice
[jonathan_]: they have agency many women who turn
to abortion are suffering from various kinds of
[jonathan_]: deprivation poverty and exclusion which makes the
prospect of another pregnancy unbearable to them we
[jonathan_]: can't just set that aside now that
has to be fractured in somewhere into the
[jonathan_]: eventual balance then there's a question of
okay so if we're pro live going to
[jonathan_]: be pro life after birth as well
as before birth in other words are we
[jonathan_]: going to put in place
[case_thorp]: m
[jonathan_]: the social educational
[crosland_stuart]: right
[case_thorp]: ah
[jonathan_]: economic support systems that make life possible
that help women to make those o life
[jonathan_]: choices and that's
[crosland_stuart]: ye
[jonathan_]: long discussion so those are just some
of the question so that's the first thing
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[case_thorp]: oh
[jonathan_]: draw up a list of the key
[crosland_stuart]: yeah
[jonathan_]: questions that need to be discussed and
then work through them one by one in
[jonathan_]: as dispassionate a way as possible extremely
difficult to do that these days but to
[jonathan_]: me
[case_thorp]: yeah
[jonathan_]: that's one of the witnesses that the
christian church should be offering that it should
[jonathan_]: create a safe and
[case_thorp]: sure
[jonathan_]: a civic a respectful space in which
those kinds of detailed conversations can at least
[jonathan_]: begin in which all sides are heard
[case_thorp]: yeah oh jonathan i so appreciate how
you lay that out so many different complex
[case_thorp]: questions and my hope is that
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[case_thorp]: our listeners
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[case_thorp]: will take the time to recogni is
the varies questions the complexity and that one's
[case_thorp]: response is
[crosland_stuart]: yeah
[case_thorp]: an attempt to respond to them all
[jonathan_]: yeah
[case_thorp]: so my daughter my beautiful smart hard
working seventeen year old daughter
[crosland_stuart]: yeah
[case_thorp]: loves to have text conversations
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[case_thorp]: on deep topics with me
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[case_thorp]: which
[jonathan_]: i
[case_thorp]: isn't always the
[crosland_stuart]: mad
[case_thorp]: best medium but hey she's talking to
me and she has such a theological mind
[case_thorp]: and even i think
[jonathan_]: okay
[case_thorp]: she's and of an apologist in how
she discusses faith with friends well the other
[case_thorp]: night she's kind of tuning in to
all the roviweigd conversation and says she starts
[case_thorp]: testing me well what do we believe
and why is this and why is that
[case_thorp]: we go on and on and finally
i get the text of a lifetime for
[case_thorp]: a father a christian father she says
honestly dad from reading everything you've said and
[case_thorp]: everything i've said only thing i'm really
getting from all of this is that you
[case_thorp]: truly have to be involved and invested
in god to survive in this world
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[case_thorp]: you know
[jonathan_]: well
[case_thorp]: there we are
[jonathan_]: you know that's
[case_thorp]: r
[jonathan_]: that's
[case_thorp]: oh
[jonathan_]: how can anyone improve on that you
[case_thorp]: yeah
[jonathan_]: know
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[jonathan_]: that's the foundation
[case_thorp]: uh
[jonathan_]: of everything we want to do
[case_thorp]: h
[jonathan_]: and that's where the discussion then starts
and proceed it's from and always has to
[jonathan_]: back to but you know it's
[case_thorp]: sure
[jonathan_]: final on rob wade i
[crosland_stuart]: m
[jonathan_]: mean the fact that so many professing
even joe calls i'm going to say professing
[jonathan_]: evangelical those who
[crosland_stuart]: yeah
[jonathan_]: self identify evangelicals are so invested almost
exclusively in
[crosland_stuart]: yeah
[jonathan_]: overturning rod wade through capturing the republican
party for the last thirty years that has
[jonathan_]: been their almost exclusive concern is has
[case_thorp]: oh
[jonathan_]: left the wider body of christ politically
fractured
[crosland_stuart]: m
[jonathan_]: undivided because there are now twenty other
issues were issues of life and death right
[jonathan_]: at the fore front i mean
[crosland_stuart]: it
[jonathan_]: poverty military action climate change you name
it
[case_thorp]: m
[crosland_stuart]: a
[jonathan_]: it's not the only pro life is
not the only life issue and to to
[jonathan_]: hitch our wagon exclusively to that one
goal very important it is you know i
[jonathan_]: think it's been a tragic mistake by
many christians you can say you might find
[jonathan_]: parallel examples on the progressive left that's
also possible where whatever it is we can
[jonathan_]: simply
[case_thorp]: hm
[jonathan_]: reduce the public power of the gospel
to one issue you know we've really got
[jonathan_]: to develop a
[case_thorp]: well
[jonathan_]: broad
[case_thorp]: tell me this
[jonathan_]: view
[case_thorp]: because
[jonathan_]: in which all these things that integrated
and balanced together in the light of the
[jonathan_]: best traditions of public theology that we
can lay our hands on
[case_thorp]: well help me in our closing moments
here think
[jonathan_]: yeah
[case_thorp]: about this because we have listeners that
are trump supporters and voters um so i
[case_thorp]: know that someone would say hey jonathan
yeah so i agree with you one of
[case_thorp]: wade but i might be in a
different place on canadates and other
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[case_thorp]: things when we're at work and we
are living our faith when we're accounting people
[case_thorp]: with a mixture of these perspectives
[jonathan_]: hm hm
[case_thorp]: what it would be your advice
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[jonathan_]: so i think the first thing i
want to say is that we all need
[jonathan_]: to hold each other accountable to this
principle wherever we are on the spectrum principle
[case_thorp]: oh
[jonathan_]: is our highest authority is jesus christ
the church that he has established to witness
[jonathan_]: to him that a highest authority and
we've got to find ways to make sure
[jonathan_]: that we have not sold our souls
some political movement however plausible it might seem
[jonathan_]: in ways that we are no longer
submitting to the authority of jesus christ on
[jonathan_]: this or that or any other issue
whether it's got control
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[jonathan_]: of poverty or immigration whatever it might
be it's no simple way to guarantee that
[jonathan_]: but we've got to commit ourselves to
holding each
[crosland_stuart]: m
[jonathan_]: other accounts well that means
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[jonathan_]: we both need to speak the water
cooler or dinner table but we also got
[jonathan_]: to
[crosland_stuart]: yeah
[jonathan_]: be prepared to listen to the truth
from others and that means being prepared to
[jonathan_]: detach ourselves from our political loyalties sadly
the unexpected word of the gospel can
[case_thorp]: oh
[jonathan_]: sneak in start to question some of
our judgments and some of our commitments that's
[jonathan_]: that we've got
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[jonathan_]: to create
[case_thorp]: what stuff
[jonathan_]: a body of christ where that process
of critical vision critical questioning take place if
[jonathan_]: we allow that
[crosland_stuart]: ah
[jonathan_]: that chink in the armour where the
word of god can speak to us then
[jonathan_]: we begin to be the body of
christ again and learn from each other
[crosland_stuart]: oh
[jonathan_]: firm each other not eliminating
[crosland_stuart]: yeah
[jonathan_]: all difference that's never going to happen
but helping each other to escape from the
[jonathan_]: idolatries of our age which i think
have crippled church is today and you know
[jonathan_]: to re focus our loyalty on jesus
christ difficult
[crosland_stuart]: jonathan that is great those are great
words thank you so much for your wisdom
[crosland_stuart]: and insight and taking the time to
be with us today i think one of
[crosland_stuart]: the really imp
[case_thorp]: oh
[crosland_stuart]: and take aways as we think about
this example of rove wade is um is
[crosland_stuart]: not selling ourselves out to one thing
the gospel is to be integrated into all
[crosland_stuart]: of life ah and here at the
new here at nuance we're trying to make
[crosland_stuart]: sure we do that better particularly at
work but how we behave in our private
[crosland_stuart]: lives spills over into our work that's
avoidable and so i think you've really helped
[crosland_stuart]: us really go back to the basics
and to remember what we would what we
[crosland_stuart]: would all profess but sad we're terrible
at practicing um
[case_thorp]: uh
[crosland_stuart]: so
[case_thorp]: yeah
[crosland_stuart]: thank you again for being with us
it's been a
[case_thorp]: yes
[crosland_stuart]: great
[case_thorp]: thank
[crosland_stuart]: delight
[case_thorp]: you so much
[jonathan_]: well thank you for the privilege of
being part of this this great set of
[jonathan_]: conversations that i know you've already got
going and you're having in other settings it's
[jonathan_]: a really exciting program and you know
really wish you god's blessing on that whole
[jonathan_]: program that it may help equip people
who are
[crosland_stuart]: m
[jonathan_]: struggling to be faithful in their work
lives to take the next step in that
[jonathan_]: work of faithfulness thank you
[jonathan_]: yeah