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Welcome to The Overflow—the bonus round of faith and real-life conversation with Brandon and Susan Thomas. Every week, they unpack the powerful insights, behind-the-scenes experiences, and personal reflections that didn’t quite fit into Sunday’s sermon.
This is where the conversation gets practical, honest, and a little bit unscripted. Whether it's an encouraging word, a deeper dive into Scripture, or a hilarious moment from their week, Brandon and Susan bring fresh perspective and spiritual fuel to keep you going.
It’s real talk, fresh takes, and full hearts.
These are the conversations too good to cut and too real to miss.
Hey, everybody. Welcome to the overflow with Brandon and
Speaker 2:And Susan.
Speaker 1:And today, we're talking about something that is a big part
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 1:Of our ministry, a big part of our life.
Speaker 2:Very passionate.
Speaker 1:Okay. So there are those, and and this is hard, but there are those through the years at church who would say, you know, I try to time it to where I arrive in time for the preaching, because the singing really isn't for me.
Speaker 2:Oh, tragic. Tragic mistake.
Speaker 1:Today we wanna talk about
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:A power that is ready to unlock in your life
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:If you would become a person of worship.
Speaker 2:There
Speaker 1:is a power ready to unlock. It could be the lid.
Speaker 2:It really could be the lid. And this is a value of our whole church. One of our main values is we sing loud.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:But it's so much more than just singing.
Speaker 1:So I'd like to start out by just giving a little bit of the theology, just just what does God say about it, and then we'll get real practical. Yeah. John chapter four, Jesus said, in verse 23, the time is coming, indeed it's here now, when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit, and in truth. The Father is looking for those who will worship him in that way. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:For God is spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth. Mhmm. Wow. Yeah. And here, Jesus was revealing to a woman at the well that he is the Messiah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. This is powerful. Yes. And this is big.
Speaker 2:It's big. And I think right out the gates, one of the mistakes sometimes we make when we hear worship is we think worship is only singing, or that the expression of worship worship is just for praise in church service when the music plays and the congregation sings that that is worship. But the definition of worship is far more broad, and praise is one element.
Speaker 1:Yeah. The English word for worship is worth ship. I'm assigning worth to something. So you worship what you want. The the old English was worth ship.
Speaker 1:Worth ship. Wow. And so you When you When we say worship, it's really what is the anchor of your heart? What is it fixated on? You worship what you want, and everybody worships because everybody wants.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Everybody has desires, and what you anchor on. So to be a good worshiper, you must be someone that is saying, okay, what do I want?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because you say, well, I worship God. You may sing on Sundays, but your heart is a million miles away. You're not worshiping.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:You have not anchored your heart on the things of the Lord, on Lord, on God himself. And what this passage is really unlocking is, first, God is searching. I think that is profound. That God is searching people who will worth ship him, that will assign worthy. And I do wanna I'm I'm going to shift into singing.
Speaker 1:But just Let's just go ahead and acknowledge I'm talking about something bigger. But I do wanna shift into into singing, and worship, and corporate worship. God is searching for people who will express their praise, and they will worship him. And how do we worship? In spirit.
Speaker 1:Psalm forty seven one, come, everyone, clap your hands, shout to God with a joyful praise. Psalm 95, come, let's sing to the Lord. Let's shout joyfully to the rock of our salvation. Psalm 22, you are holy, and thrown in the praises of Israel. On and on and on.
Speaker 1:Ephesians five eighteen, don't be drunk with wine, be filled with the holy spirit of God. God wants us to worship him, and it is a you ready? A supernatural thing.
Speaker 2:It is. It is. We'd like to think that we've created this, and that's why those sweet people who just don't understand and think, I'm just gonna come once the message begins, which is crucial part of a worship service, opening the word of God and that being delivered and that message being preached. But to the person who thinks that the that the singing and the praising of God is unimportant have missed the fact that this was not created by man. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:This was created by a God who draws near to us. This, ugh, this is one of the things I think that is stunning to me when I began to understand this as, again, young adult when I began turning back to God. Praise and worship through singing and congregational praise and worship is a supernatural kind of connection with God. You cannot recreate it with other things. Now there's many ways to worship God.
Speaker 2:In fact, all of life, every act that I'm doing is an opportunity to worship him or to reject him.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Whether it's changing diapers as a young mom, whether it's keeping my house clean, whether it's doing a great job at my office job, whatever I'm doing, let it all be as unto the Lord.
Speaker 1:You even said in one of the podcasts that even intimacy between a husband and wife is an act of worship.
Speaker 2:It is an act of worship, which if you're just now hearing that, you're like, what in the world? It's an act of obedience. It's an act of faith, and it's an act of purity. All of that is saying, God, you're greater even than my sex life. I I love you more than I would love intimacy with my spouse.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And so worship comes in many forms. But the act of worshiping God through praise and through singing, and we're gonna look in a moment all the ways God actually prescribes how that is to look. It is a supernatural touchdown moment. We're not in heaven yet, but it's as if the veil is so very thin.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And the and it and heavens are parted, and there's a connection there that happens when we worship in spirit Mhmm. And in truth. Yeah. My soul and my spirit is ignited, and it's authentic.
Speaker 2:It's
Speaker 1:not And it's echoed even in normal everyday life, you know. There are people that whenever you're at a football game, and your team scores, and your hands immediately go up, and whenever you you see people that will paint up for their team, well, that's right worship, it's been said, but maybe wrong god. You're you're actually assigning worth ship to something. It's just not God. Now there's nothing wrong with loving your team.
Speaker 1:But the question is, are you somebody that doesn't wanna sing at church, but you'll do that? Well, you've given that your heart, but you haven't given God your heart.
Speaker 2:So true. And praise. We can as humans, we praise one another. When you do a good job, we clap our hands and we praise that good act. That's not wrong.
Speaker 1:When your kid scores,
Speaker 2:yay. Yes. You're praising that great moment, that touchdown moment. But when your praise slips into worship, that is only for an audience of one.
Speaker 1:So good. It's a supernatural thing. It's echoed even in the way that you live your life. There's something about it. When you open your mouth and sing, something's happening.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Talking about praise. Why do you sing in the shower?
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:I remember I was mowing my lawn once, and I was in high school, and I had my headphones on. This was back in the day of Walkman. You know, you had a Walkman. You had
Speaker 2:I remember.
Speaker 1:Headphones on the cord down to the tape player that was buckled onto my belt. And I was mowing, and that and, you know, it's a loud mower, and I thought nobody else can hear. I was singing at the top of my lungs.
Speaker 2:Side note, you have the loudest voice in Right.
Speaker 1:I was singing at the top of my lungs. Wow. And finally, a neighbor called dad, called mom and dad and said, hey, we think it's so sweet, but is there any way that you could
Speaker 2:That's amazing.
Speaker 1:And so I'll never forgot that. The point is that there's something inside of us that wants to sing, and there's something about us that loves music.
Speaker 2:Why
Speaker 1:is the music industry just selling out every year? You know, Taylor Swift did a billion dollar tour. Now Ariana Grande's set to do another billion dollar tour. Why? Why are these artists raking in all that money?
Speaker 1:Why is it so lucrative? Why is it a multi billion dollar business? Because we're made for music. It's because there's something about song. There's something about that, and I'm convinced it's tied to worship.
Speaker 1:I'm convinced that God intended for us to sing. I believe the angels are singing Yeah. In the presence of God right now. We wanna align with that. So it is a supernatural thing.
Speaker 1:Don't skip the singing. Don't skip the singing. Something supernatural is happening. We'll talk more about that in a minute. But he says, in worship, God is spirit, and he is seeking out people who will worship him in spirit
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And in truth. Yes. So worship is to be done the way God wants it done. Right. Worship is to be done truthfully.
Speaker 1:Matthew 15, these people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a devastating verse, and it should rock us. It should cause us great pause. They honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Mhmm. And that's a picture that we can lift our hands high in the air, sing with all our heart, and absolutely be so far from God.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's terrifying.
Speaker 1:And the truth of it, sometimes things get at Keystone, we believe the bible says, let your worship be orderly. Mhmm. You know? And and that means that whenever we are worshiping as a church, it needs to be something that honors God's truth. We wanna worship in spirit and in truth.
Speaker 1:When we worship, we want to worship according to what the word of God says. For example, God's God has prescription, according to the apostle Paul, that when you worship, just a part of your worship should be thinking, hey, there are guests here. Can they understand what we're doing? Can they connect with what we're doing? That's a part of our worship.
Speaker 1:It should be something you understand. Yeah. When you're worshiping, it should be something that you understand. When you worship, you wanna you wanna worship truthfully. So that means that if you are worshiping, don't be a faker.
Speaker 1:Don't be mean as the devil six days out of the week, and then go sing with the Come heavens
Speaker 2:Come on.
Speaker 1:On the one day a week. You need to worship in spirit and in truth. Is this aligning? That means that that as you worship, man, maybe you need to get right with the Lord. That's part of your worship.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:That's in truth.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 1:Maybe the first part, you need to get on your doggone knees. I mean, I'm talking drop to your knees Right. And worship in truth. Mhmm. There there's there needs to be the truth of it.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Absolutely. I think that when it comes to worship, we are often captured by emotion. And when it when we talk about relationships, particularly, let's think of someone that you deeply love. You want emotion to be a part of that relationship.
Speaker 2:No one wants a cold, barren interaction with someone that they, quote, love. You feel things, but what we have to be careful is that we aren't worshiping the emotion.
Speaker 1:Amen.
Speaker 2:Filled with an emotionalism. Is that a word? Yes. Filled with that emotionalism and missing the god who grants the connection and the emotion. And so music by its very nature and by God's created order evokes emotion inside of us.
Speaker 2:But the praise and worship of God, it is a it's a dance of discipline and freedom. Yeah. It it it's full of freedom, but there's a discipline of it, of God. I'm gonna continually check my often errant heart and make sure that my worship and praise is focused on you and you alone.
Speaker 1:You know, and some people will say emotional is the spirit, and the bible is the truth. No. No. No. No.
Speaker 1:No. Holy spirit is perfectly aligned
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:With truth. Right. And truth should be perfectly aligned with the holy spirit, and emotions are in both. Emotions are a part of of worship.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And being filled with the Holy Spirit, and having an encounter with the spirit of God. But worship should I mean, emotions should be hitting you when you're reading the Bible. Yeah. And you're, I I'm not afraid of emotions. There is a bit of a cynicism now in the church.
Speaker 1:They're saying, you're you're being hyper emotional. You're just punching people's emotions to manipulate them. Yeah. No, emotions are emotions. I did a series of messages on emotions.
Speaker 1:And what I did was, it was called Mastering Emotions, and what I did was I looked at mastering emotions from the master of emotions.
Speaker 2:Jesus
Speaker 1:showed emotions, so we should not back off from emotions. Right. But it needs to be anchored to truth.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's where, you know, we've there's the church has long been criticized by the accuser of the brethren. There's always an accusation in somebody's mouth against the church, and that's why we have to be anchored to the word of God. How does he say he desires for us to worship and praise him?
Speaker 2:What is his design for that? And I can remember back again just in in that season of life in college when I was really turning back to God. And I'd grown up in a specific tradition with a certain style of worship. And I remember walking into a church that at the time, the students on campus referred to it as High Hands Baptist Church. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And I walked in that wasn't its name. It was Highlands Baptist Church at the time. But I walked into High Hands Baptist Church for the very first time.
Speaker 1:Because they were lifting their hands in worship.
Speaker 2:Oh, yes. And I remember walking in, and everyone's hands were lifted in worship. And I thought, this is so strange. This is so unfamiliar. Honestly, this feels weird, but I liked it.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. I something in my inner deep part of my soul was drawn to this body of believers who I now believe were worshiping him with abandonment, with worshiping him in spirit and in truth. Mhmm. And that was a large part of a beginning point for me of experiencing God in a way I'd never had before.
Speaker 1:You know, the goal of a worship experience is not did I cry today?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:That's not the goal. That's making emotions the goal. And I think some people that grew up in an environment like that, or maybe their family was that way, or maybe they just the church was missing it. But they swing so far to the other extreme, and they just reject anything, and they just missed God. It's a dumb dichotomy.
Speaker 1:You're either emotional, or you're a bible church. No. And it's important to say, no, I wanna get it right. So some days, I may get emotional. Other days, I might be deeply reverent.
Speaker 1:Like, I am I am struck to my core, and I am struck I am struck spellbound. I am silenced in my worship. Like, I am just sitting here with my head up, and I am talking to the Lord. Sometimes, man, I'm getting out stuff because God is downloading on me. And I'm starting to just get stuff down.
Speaker 1:Okay, God. In worship, you're telling me this. You're telling me this. So there's so much available to us in spirit and in truth. But worship, this goes to another thing, the lyrics that we sing should always align with scripture.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:As we write music at Keystone
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:They will always be tested by the word of God.
Speaker 2:Yes. That's our filter.
Speaker 1:That is our filter. So all of this to say that worship is bigger than praise, bigger than music. It's a lifestyle. But the practical application of praise and worship is that we sing.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And when we sing, may it be filled with Holy Spirit power, and may it align perfectly with God's truth. Yes. Now, let's talk about some biblical expressions of praise. Yes. I mean, let's really get into it.
Speaker 1:I wanna know why why are y'all raising your hands? Yeah. Why are people getting on their knees? What's going on around here? Let's talk about the different ways, biblically, that we praise God.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I I'm just not a person who wants to just do something to follow the crowd, or just that, you know what? This is what someone said to do. I need
Speaker 1:following know tradition.
Speaker 2:No. We need to know. And so I did a deep dive into this, just years ago, and it's been so helpful to me when the bible, God speaks for himself. And so I'll just read some of the things that I discovered, real practical, biblical expressions of praise. Sing praise songs, Psalm nine Psalms ninety five one.
Speaker 2:Come, let us sing to the Lord. Let us shout joyfully to the rock of our salvation. So there it is. Singing is a part of God's expression. Declaring thanks.
Speaker 2:Psalm ninety five two. Let us come to him with thanksgiving. Let us sing songs of praise to him. Clap hands and shout. Oh, we already read shout.
Speaker 2:Let's read it again.
Speaker 1:Well, let yeah.
Speaker 2:Clap hands and shout. Psalm forty seven one. Come, everyone. Clap your hands. Shout to God with joyful praise.
Speaker 2:Do you remember that song when we were growing up? Clap your hands, all you people shouting to God with
Speaker 1:the of triumph.
Speaker 2:Clap your hands, all you people shouting to God with the voice of praise. We just did that. Clap your hands and shout. Play music and dance. Psalm one fifty one fifty verse four.
Speaker 2:Praise him with a tambourine. I love a good tambourine.
Speaker 1:I know you do.
Speaker 2:Give me a tambourine right now. I can hit it. Tambourine and dancing. Praise him with strings and flutes. Make a joyful noise.
Speaker 2:Shout with joy to the lord all the earth. Worship the lord with gladness. Come before him singing with joy, and we're not done. We're almost done. And these are again, please don't miss.
Speaker 2:These are the ways god says
Speaker 1:Praise him.
Speaker 2:I want you to praise me this way. Here's and by the way, how kind of God to tell us, help us know how to love and worship him well. So sweet. Lift our hands. Psalms one thirty four two.
Speaker 2:Lift up holy hands in prayer and praise the Lord. It it's right here. Kneel or bow. Psalm thirty three three, come, let us worship and bow down. Let us kneel before the lord our maker.
Speaker 2:So all of these things, lifting our hands, shouting, singing, clapping, kneeling, bowing, all of these and more come straight from the scripture of a good god saying, here is a posture for your praise. But far more than the posture, god wants the heart behind it.
Speaker 1:You know, one of the things we've learned in marriage is there's certain things you like
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And there's certain things I like. True. And you are you love affection for me. Yes. You know?
Speaker 1:And I like other things.
Speaker 2:We can all guess what you might like. Just a big question mark in the room.
Speaker 1:But the truth is though, truly, I mean, I love affection from you as well. There's we have learned, and it's a continual journey. Yes. And it and it changes for us as we grow. But we've learned, hey, this is a way I can show her I love her.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And it may not even be natural to me.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Can we be I'm gonna confess.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:Okay. So you grew up with a a daddy who was so sweetly affectionate Yes. To his daughter
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And all his kids. He just did wonderfully affectionate. It's an incredible model of a strong man. Yeah. A man's man, hunter, fisherman, just man's man all the way.
Speaker 1:Yet there's a tenderness
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That he would it came out of him to show an affection. I don't know if he grew up that way or what from his parents, but I've watched it. And yet, when it came to me to you, I was not your father.
Speaker 2:You are not my father.
Speaker 1:I am not your father. And affection like that, it was not easy. It wasn't natural.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It wasn't natural. And so because we love each other Mhmm. Because you love me, it's a lifelong journey of discovering how to love one another well. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because why? We love each other. Yeah. And you desire to connect with me. I desire to connect with you.
Speaker 2:And it really is a picture of God.
Speaker 1:And I want you asking, well, what is Brandon like? Like, what what how's what's a way I can bless him? Yeah. It may not be natural for me. It may not even be like something that, but in a love relationship where there's trust Yeah.
Speaker 1:And there's a desire Yeah. To please one another, we ask the question, what's a gift? What's a date night look like that she would love or that he would love? You know, how can we bless each other? And you should apply that to kids too.
Speaker 1:How can I really bless people? Well, all of these expressions that struck me.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:God is telling us, this is what I like.
Speaker 2:Ugh. So amazing. Would he even care about us?
Speaker 1:I like I like when you sing. I like when you give me your thank yous. I like it when you clap and shout. So don't tell me, I only want a quiet little church, I don't like all this clapping and shouting. Sorry, God wants passion.
Speaker 2:Yes, he does.
Speaker 1:God wants enthusiasm. God wants you to lose and shake off some of that dignity.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Clap, shout. God wants music, there it is, dance. That's not natural for us in church
Speaker 2:Let's and
Speaker 1:for me. But man, sometimes, man, you just need to hop around a
Speaker 2:little That's right. You do. Hop around a little bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah. God wants a joyful noise, smiling and saying, thank you, God. Hey, God wants us to lift our hands. Yes. So if you're used to this, maybe first step is this.
Speaker 1:Just just a little bit of this, and maybe soon you'll be going like this, and then you'll be going like this, whatever. But God, what it I don't know what it is about these postures. And at times, he wants us to kneel. Yeah. That posture of humility and I know for me, when I kneel and bow, man, it's impossible for me to forget the posture I'm in.
Speaker 2:Oh, and the position.
Speaker 1:And the position that I'm in. Oh. It's an incredible humility. It's uncomfortable. It may even hurt.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So all of that to say, listen, Let's not just do what feels comfortable. Let's not just do what feels natural. Yeah. Push yourself.
Speaker 2:Push yourself. And there's some things that that, you know, we've talked about, bounced around that get in the way. It's ways of thinking where we resist worship and praise. And one of them you already mentioned is I just come here for the message. I'm not really interested in the worship portion.
Speaker 2:But there's more. Not natural. It's not comfortable for me. This isn't my natural bent. Maybe I'm not an emotional person.
Speaker 2:I don't show my affection, and so that's hard to do even with God. These are real resistance that some of us experience. My relationship with God is private. This is such that this one actually reaches to many things even including, but beyond also, worship and praise. Your relationship with God is personal.
Speaker 2:It is never to be private. We're to share our testimony and share the goodness of God with those around us. And corporate worship hey. If you're sick, if you're in the hospital, if you're traveling and you're watching we're so glad you're watching online. But corporate worship is never to be replaced by an online experience.
Speaker 2:We wanna get in the house of God. There's something that happens Amen. With other people. Oh, here's one that causes us resistance. The thought in our head, others are faking it.
Speaker 2:This is fake. Everything I'm seeing around me, it's not real. Alright. Number one, you're looking in the wrong direction.
Speaker 1:Yeah,
Speaker 2:ma'am. Because this is supposed to be about you and your creator. This is about you and your relationship with God. It's interesting. I had a a person in my life ask me what it's like, you know, just some of the challenges of being a pastor's wife or a leader in the church, and and she herself was in a leadership position.
Speaker 2:And just the feeling of being on that front row at times at church and having eyes on you during worship.
Speaker 1:Yeah. While you worship. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And and just she was expressing how that can be inhibiting or just she's aware and asked me my thoughts about it. And this is the true, truest thing I could tell you, is if people are looking at me worship, I just hope that I can lead them where I'm going.
Speaker 1:Wow. So good.
Speaker 2:I just want them to taste it.
Speaker 1:Well, if they see me, I want them
Speaker 2:Just forget me, but let's go together where I'm headed, to the throne room of god. And that is my my heart's cry. And so I don't care about a stare if it will point that person to the one.
Speaker 1:In this category, there's another one. Say I brought a guest. I'm concerned about what they're gonna think. Yeah. And and I have a word for that, and that is they need to see the authenticity of your faith.
Speaker 1:And I'd encourage you to bring your best praise Yeah. When you bring a guest, and they're sitting by you. Hopefully, it's not such a disconnect. And, I mean, you're not gonna be dancing in hands in the air during the office, but but hopefully, they've seen that God is real to you with the decisions you make, with the integrity that you conduct yourself with.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And and they're they're already asking, how is this person different? This is a real friend. Yeah. This is somebody who does life different. And then they see your passion like that.
Speaker 1:Like if you were to go to sit with them in a football game, and and and they were watching you, and you're a real fan, man. I am a real They walk away and say, boy, tell you, that Brandon, he loves his football. I I tell you, I know what gift to give him for Christmas. Right. Well, may they walk away from our worship experience and say, well, that Brandon, he loves his God.
Speaker 1:He loves his god. Let them not miss it. Yeah. I just I'm just struck by all these things, and the kids are watching.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:The kids are watching. And again, it's not a show. If there's a disconnect on your worship day from your everyday
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:Then it's actually really harmful. And that that's not a statement to say, so stop worshiping, and keep on living like the devil.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:The answer is repent of your sin.
Speaker 2:There we go.
Speaker 1:Get right before God.
Speaker 2:God help us.
Speaker 1:What I have seen, and and and if you have anything to share on this, interrupt me. But what I have seen is families that are all in for worship. There is a temperature being passed on to their kids. True. I have seen far more often families that are cold in their worship, and their kids are like, whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's not real. Wow.
Speaker 2:Again, we are not God, and we cannot judge the heart. Right. With that said, there are patterns that we observe. And for probably fifteen years of our ministry, I was on the front lines of being a worship leader and had the privilege to lead worship for, you know, over a decade, almost into two. And then God has given me since then other assignments that are my main thing.
Speaker 2:But when I was in that seat of worship leader, it's a unique place, a a unique perspective on the crowd. You see faces. You see postures. You see people. And I cannot tell you how undeniable it was to, at times, land on different people during that worship part of the service.
Speaker 2:And I don't have any other adjective to describe that person other than dead.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's one of the hardest things.
Speaker 2:I felt like I was looking at death. Yeah. I was looking at a stoicism that was beyond a personality trait, but it was it seemed a symbol of of a lack deep on the inside. And I believe that, you know, that's just the reality of of a posture where God is saying, that's not what I want. I could tell you I wouldn't want that in my marriage.
Speaker 2:I wouldn't want you to look at me with that those eyes with nothing behind them and no emotion and no movement toward me at all. And I believe that is true when it comes to God and it comes to worship and praise. And so what I love to tell people, certainly it's been my journey, is start where you are. It's not like you suddenly have to take leaps and bounds to be someone that you've never been.
Speaker 1:I agree.
Speaker 2:What's your first step of obedience? What's your first step of stretching in your relationship with God? Refuse to stay where you are today. If
Speaker 1:you're a non expressive person, like legitimately quiet
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 1:Reserved, non expressive I've got a story about that with my granddad. My granddad, and this may be part of my affection thing, but my granddad was this German, his last name Hauser. He had a mustache. He had blonde hair up until his nineties.
Speaker 2:Wonderful man.
Speaker 1:Wonderful man. Grew up on the family land, ancestral land, dairy farmer. I mean, and he was shaped by the Great Depression, and just a not he was not an affectionate man. He was a warm man. He was a loving man.
Speaker 1:But when I would go in for a hug, it'd be like a quick pat pat pat. Know? But he would laugh, and he it just he didn't know how to be tender like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But he
Speaker 1:was a very tender person. Well, if you're like that, then my my word to you would be, you know, just do something. Like, if if your kids see you just worshiping God like this, and it's hands out. They're like, woah. I had an experience like this this past week.
Speaker 1:I was at a young adult event where they had worshiped. I was in the back of the room with a man I really respect, and I consider him a wise counsel Mhmm. Guy for me, for us. And we're back there, and he said, and we're both marvelings, there's some dudes in the room. I mean, they're dudes.
Speaker 1:I mean, country, you know, boots, and and honestly looked just, you wouldn't expect them to be worship guys. Yeah. You know? And as we were watching, we see them, they start putting out their hands like this. And we both were like, he said, man, I didn't I didn't expect that.
Speaker 1:Oh. And we're both watching the authenticity of the worship of those young men. And we're just like and it melted us.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:We were like, look at these dudes.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:Look at these dudes. And there's just something about that.
Speaker 2:Can I say that if that melted you, how did it melt the heart of God?
Speaker 1:Oh, come on. I wanna make and this may be a rabbit, but I wanna do it. You're talking about something that you and I live with. And I wanna I wanna make this alive for some people, talking about the stage from the platform. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Looking out upon the people.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:I feel led to speak of this. What's happening in that room should not be diminished.
Speaker 2:People
Speaker 1:say, oh, we we're all about rows, not cir we're all about circles, not rows. In other words, where true life change happens is in a small group, not in the room.
Speaker 2:Oh, goodness.
Speaker 1:I hate that. Okay, you won't hear that at Keystone. No. I value both.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:I value circles and rows.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:People will say, man, why are we building these buildings when the poor, you know. And I'd say, you can value both. You can build the buildings, and you can help the poor. Yeah. You can help the widow, you can help the orphan.
Speaker 1:It's not a zero sum game, it's a dumb dichotomy. But I wanna, I just wanna give a word, and I wanna I wanna unveil for some people that when we gather, it's not a concert. It's not mimicking a concert. It's not mimicking something that they saw on Friday night. We're not trying to be cool.
Speaker 1:We're not trying to connect with the culture. We're experiencing worship.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And you know you talked about looking out and seeing people with dead faces.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I've preached with people mocking me Mhmm. And I just preach through
Speaker 2:it. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:I preach with people looking at me dead. I've I've I've we've had people mock us.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Fall asleep.
Speaker 1:We've had we've had people fall asleep. But that's the the point I'm making is, behind every dead face is a mission field. That's a marriage that's so hurt. Yeah. They chose to be in church.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Why are they in church? Yeah. This is not a concert hall. It is a hospital.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:Ministry is happening.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:When pastors pray for people, that's real ministry. That's as much ministry as feeding the poor. Yeah. When someone comes forward and they're prayed for and they're healed by the power of God in a worship service, ministry just happened.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:So why we build buildings and we sing like this? It's not, oh, this is the American Western consumerism. No. Things are happening.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:Lives are being changed.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And if there's one thing that drives you and me, we will sacrifice numbers.
Speaker 2:Yeah. For the quality.
Speaker 1:The truth of real life change. Yes. We will not sell out the content so that, oh, we just would talk about Jesus a little less, we'll have more people? Right. Forget it.
Speaker 1:No. Hey, if you'll just not speak on social issues, you'll have fewer people. Forget it. I know I'm chasing rabbit, but I'm gonna bring it back. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm passionate about this. So what's happening in that room when we sing? I believe it's and we're gonna talk about this a moment. It is warfare.
Speaker 2:Oh, yes.
Speaker 1:It is spiritual.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 1:It is supernatural.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:It listen. It is valuable. Mhmm. He said here, I want you to play the flute. I want you to play the harp.
Speaker 1:I want you to clap your hands. I want you to bang the drums. I want you to play this instrument we no longer have. He says, want you to do all these things because it it's an investment to have those things
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Because it's valuable.
Speaker 2:Well, yes. I truly believe with all my heart the quality of our worship and praise is directly tied to the intimacy that we have with Christ.
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2:There is a tie between the two. The quality and authenticity of our worship, it's tied to our intimacy with Christ himself. And, you know, you mentioned that that ministry is happening. I'd love to point to a couple moments in the Bible where ministry happened directly tied to praise and worship.
Speaker 1:Let's go.
Speaker 2:There was two. There's freedom, and then there's warfare. One of them oh, I love this in Acts 16. Listen to crazy story. So Paul and Silas are in chains.
Speaker 2:Yeah. They are in prison. Says around midnight, Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God while they're in prison, like the worst. We can't even fathom the type of prison. I mean, I haven't been in prison, but here these people are in a hopeless situation, and they are what are they doing?
Speaker 2:Praying and singing hymns to God, and the other prisoners were listening, the bible says. Verse 26. Suddenly there was a massive earthquake, and the prison was shaken to its foundations. All the doors immediately flew open, and the chains of every prisoner fell
Speaker 1:off. Unbelievable.
Speaker 2:I mean, as you read that encounter, that moment where they were in prison, they begin praising and worshiping God, singing spiritual hymns to the Lord, and God shakes the ground. The chains fall off, and they are freed.
Speaker 1:It's freedom.
Speaker 2:I mean, you don't tell me the freedom that is happening in the church services when people who are burdened, who are addicted, who are consumed with their sin, or are absolutely brokenhearted, come into the presence of God through prayer and intimacy of worship, and chains fall to the ground. They
Speaker 1:I'm a believer.
Speaker 2:I do I am too.
Speaker 1:I am a true believer.
Speaker 2:I am too.
Speaker 1:And there's there's cynicism out there about buildings, there's cynicism out there about sound systems, there's cynicism out there about LED walls, and all that. And and you say, the gospel doesn't need an LED wall, and the gospel doesn't need haze, and the gospel doesn't need a guitarist, and the gospel doesn't need those things. And I would answer, yeah, you're right.
Speaker 2:Clearly, Paul and Silas didn't need it in prison.
Speaker 1:Paul and Silas, their hands were in chains, they praised God. I don't disagree.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:The gospel doesn't need it, but what if it brings God pleasure?
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:What if, I believe it's all about the heart. Look, I'll be the first to agree. If you're building rooms to just be a concert, and if you're doing screens just to be cool, I mean, you've missed it.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:But if you're, if you have screens because it's the modern day stained glass windows, and if you are creating beauty, because beauty honors God, and if you are bringing the best tool we have in a sound system or an instrument, you're bringing the best tool we have, and we are echoing, this is another truth
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:On earth as it is in heaven. What's happening in heaven right now, Susan?
Speaker 2:Singing. The angels are singing, praising God.
Speaker 1:And in Isaiah, what do we know about the worship environment? I was taught this by Bruce Leafblad, this tall Swedish Minnesotan. I'm telling you, this dude was a scary professor, but he talked about Isaiah, he talked about, behold, I saw the Lord high and lifted up, and it's thunder, and it's smoke, and it's incense, and it's all these things. That's what God wants. Why do we do this?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Because we're echoing, we're trying to mimic Yeah. What we see. Yeah. And somebody that that wants to take shots at the church, they don't understand this, because they don't care about the church.
Speaker 1:They don't want to know about the church, they don't want to know God's design. They're trying to take it down. Yeah. I'm a true believer that when we do church God's way, and we honor his name, and we are in spirit and in truth, and we look out, and we are providing healing Yeah. For the hurting, that doesn't take away from what you do outside the walls, but don't take away what happens on the inside Yeah.
Speaker 1:Of the
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's so powerful. And I think at the end of the day, everybody just check your heart. Check your heart. Stop looking around at their heart.
Speaker 2:Stop questioning that church's heart. Just check your heart. Am I giving God honest, authentic worship?
Speaker 1:Riled up.
Speaker 2:I know. We are well, and this next one's gonna get you more all that because worship brings freedom. As we worship God in spirit and truth, freedom comes because we're in the presence of God. But worship is also a weapon. There's a place in scripture where the God's people were up against it.
Speaker 2:I mean, the enemies the the breath of the enemies was on their neck. And there's this moment I'll read to us in second Chronicles. It says this. Let's see how much I wanna read to y'all. Y'all now I need to go read the whole thing.
Speaker 2:Second Chronicles chapter 20, like, starting in verse 15. But bottom line, they're up against it with their enemies. And it says in verse 21, after consulting the people, the king appointed singers to walk ahead of the army, singing to the Lord and praising him for his holy splendor. So they're about to go to war, and the king appoints the singers to go first. I mean, just I want everybody to let that sink in.
Speaker 1:They matter.
Speaker 2:They matter. And, I mean, I don't know that today, you know, in America, that we would be sending out our violinists to go in front of us in the field of battle, but that's what they did.
Speaker 1:But it would be the coolest thing ever if we sent our guitarists. That would be the coolest thing. It's it's like a
Speaker 2:Oh, here we go.
Speaker 1:So in my head, you just now gave me Thor Ragnarok.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow.
Speaker 1:Where they're on the bridge. And
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's
Speaker 1:right. Beck and I, he was younger at the time. We were just like
Speaker 2:Lose your mind. Oh my goodness. Mine would be a drum corps. I would have a a serious Like, drum it would be un
Speaker 1:Why do we have drum corps at at football games? There's something there.
Speaker 2:Don't know, but I I want it at my funeral.
Speaker 1:Woah.
Speaker 2:I'm serious. No. Come on.
Speaker 1:No. That is bizarre. It would be perfect. Yeah. Well, I'm just I'll be left there, and I'll be saying no.
Speaker 1:I was
Speaker 2:like, it was
Speaker 1:her wishes. Sorry.
Speaker 2:It's It's on way. And pass out mint chocolate chip ice cream to everyone.
Speaker 1:That we will do.
Speaker 2:Okay. So verse back to verse 21. Where was I? So he sends out the singers to walk ahead of the army, singing to the Lord and praising him for his holy splendor. This is what they sang, give thanks to the Lord.
Speaker 2:His faithful love endures forever. Check it. At the very moment they begin to sing and give praise, the Lord caused the armies of Ammon, Moab, and Mount Seir to start fighting among themselves. And so 24, so when the army of Judah arrived at the lookout point in the wilderness, all they saw were dead bodies lying on the ground as far as they could see. Not a single one of the enemy had escaped.
Speaker 2:They didn't even have to pick up a sword. They didn't even have to fight that battle because the praises of God's people moved the heart of God and he defeated the enemies. Worship is a weapon. Yeah. So when you walk into that church moment and you walk into that singing and praise opportunity, you may be coming in with your head down low, you may be coming in with burdens, with things way too big for you to fix, hard hard hard places.
Speaker 2:Whatever it is you're bringing, understand you are going to war. Yep. You are going to war. You don't have to pretend like you are full of happiness in that moment. You bring your tears, and you trust the Lord, and he's gonna fight your battles for you.
Speaker 1:You know, when you're in worship, sometimes you're singing from a victory. That's that get make your sound with a a Thanksgiving. Come with Thanksgiving.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:You're singing from a victory. You're singing for a victory. God, I'm bringing you my petitions. I'm bringing you my needs. I'm here.
Speaker 1:And then you're singing for a victory. I'm going to war. Man, praise your heart out for your rebellious child.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Praise just sing your heart out for your cold marriage. Yes. Sing your heart out for that chronic pain. Yes. Sing, sings, and go to war.
Speaker 1:I wanna wrap up with one one other The Bible says, bring a sacrifice of praise. Wow. When people say, I just didn't get a lot out of it today.
Speaker 2:Oh, dear. That's a not a problem.
Speaker 1:When people say, I just wasn't feeling it today. I just wasn't feeling it today. You didn't bring anything. So why are you why are you surprised you didn't get anything? Unreal.
Speaker 1:You get what you bring. You bring a sacrifice, that means sometimes to bring a sacrifice, it's it's hard.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You're you're having to give up, like, comfort. You're having to give up the distractions. You came in and you're upset. I'm I'm cutting that.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And I'm offering it at the altar. But I think the big word there is, if if there's a culture we could just keep growing at Keystone, and that is the spirit of expectation.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Oh, what a great word.
Speaker 1:Come in with a spirit of Yeah. I expect God to move.
Speaker 2:That's good.
Speaker 1:Somebody today is gonna be healed.
Speaker 2:That's incredible.
Speaker 1:Somebody today is going to be saved. If the church would come in with that level of expectation, bringing a sacrifice of praise, we are marching on the kingdom of hell. That's what I believe. What a powerful talk yet again. Thank you.
Speaker 1:I'm all worn out.
Speaker 2:I know. I gotta go sing.
Speaker 1:We need to go sing.
Speaker 2:I'm telling you.
Speaker 1:Thanks for joining us, and we'll see you next time on The Overflow.